I see that Altaians (north of China) have the highest concentration of R1a in the world. Furthermore, Hungary (founded by the invading Huns) have almost half their population being R1a. Is it true that the Huns were R1a?

How did it reach such significant levels in Norway, Sweden, and Iceland??? So did the Germanic tribes who had significant amount of contact with the Huns later migrate to Scandinavia or something???

When they give the broad category of "Altains" who are they referring to??? I thought that Mongols were Altains yet the chart shows that Mongols and "Altains" are quite different from each other.

The Huns, Magyars, Avars were never numerically dominant in Hungary. They captured Slavic and Germanic slaves and they adopted the Magyar language. The original Huns were found to have pretty high level of N group (like the Finns) as well as C (like the Mongols) and Q (Native Americans). Ancient Magyar skeletons also reveal these types of Asian DNA Y markers. Over time, they decreased in Hungary, but language remained. The Szekeler (nomadic Magyars in Romania) have high portion of N.

Are there any diagrams which show the geneology of the Ancient Huns and even ancient Mongols from 800 years ago. Many people from Central Asia: Turkmenstan, Kazakstan, Kyrgistan, Uzbekistan, etc... have told me that modern Mongolians are not the closest descendants of Chingiz Khan. They said the real descendants feld to Central Asia during the period when the Manchurian Qing dynasty occupied the land, and they stayed there and never really returned afterwards. So can you show me more sources on the Ancient Huns and Ancient Mongol DNA makeup???

Are there any diagrams which show the geneology of the Ancient Huns and even ancient Mongols from 800 years ago. Many people from Central Asia: Turkmenstan, Kazakstan, Kyrgistan, Uzbekistan, etc... have told me that modern Mongolians are not the closest descendants of Chingiz Khan. They said the real descendants feld to Central Asia during the period when the Manchurian Qing dynasty occupied the land, and they stayed there and never really returned afterwards. So can you show me more sources on the Ancient Huns and Ancient Mongol DNA makeup???

Hungary speaks Uralic beacause Huns got Mansi as a part of their army. Same for r1a1. Huns got todays Tojick precessors as a part of army.

The chart shows that there are a small proportion of R1a in the Han Chinese population. I know the Huns used to live in China in large numbers before they were driven out of China by the Han Dynasty, so perhaps in the ancient times before they were driven out R1a accounted for about 20 to 30 percent of the Chinese population? In any case, the small portion of R1a in today's Han Chinese population are likely the remnants of Hunnic descendants. This provides compelling evidence that the ancient Huns were in fact R1a. R1a originated well before the Neolithic, so I wouldn't be surprised that many Asian and European ethnicities shared the R1a marker prior to 500 BC.

Where you get that information from??? The Xiongnu never lived in large numbers inside of the Han China territory before they were driven Westwards by General Ban Chao. The Xiongu lived Northg of Han China and parts of the Tarim Basin. The only places the ancient Xiongnu used to live which coincides with modern China territory is the Tarim Basin which is mostly Uyghur autonomous territory.

The only group which has significant amounts of R1a in China are the Uyghurs, but their story is an interesting one. I'll make a post later about it.

I believe most of those who served as "generals" in the Chinese army were Hunnic. I'm talking about around 500 BC, not the Han Dynasty. They usually had named ending with "xie". Anyhow, believe what you want. I got my not-so-complete info from Chinese TV shows about ancient China well before the Han Dynasty.

Anyway, here's something about "Altaians". They spoke a Turkish language quite different from Mongol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altay_people

I think the Huns were Altaians, which were mostly R1a, not Mongol, which were mostly C.

Khuton, a mongol tribe living in the west of mongol, have a 70% R1a on their y-snp.
And in history record Xiongnu can divide into yellow Xiongnu/ White Xiongnu.
But the core tribe seemed yellow

There were no such thing as a Xiongnu nation. Xiongnu were just a plain millitary block.

Todays population of pre Altay mountains plains is a product of thousand years reverse migration due to the Altay plains were a historical place for all Central Asian refuges.

In fact the R1a of Chinese aren't from Xiongnu, but from aborigines in the Xinjiang ,northwest China.

"I believe most of those who served as "generals" in the Chinese army were Hunnic."

WTF?!?! You sure you ain't making this up??? I've never heard of that.



Well, the story of the Huns or the Xiongnu is pretty complex. This article here may give you a little insight on it:

http://www.findthelinks.com/history/Huns_T...gin_of_huns.htm

You see the ancient Xiongnu/Huns did infact originate from a man by the name of Chunwei. Chinese sources, Uyghur sources, and many sources confirm this. During the last days of the Xia Dynasty, the ruling family and those who were loyal to them were expelled to regions North, Northwest, and Northeast of modern China. At the time being, the ruling family of the Xia and their followers had genotypes that were virtually the same as the genotypes of modern day Han Chinese people.

But after they were expelled, they had no choice but to interbreed with locals in order to last long. And the Altains were the people whom these ancient Chinese had the most numerous intermarriages with, and modern genetics attests to that. The interbreeding between the exiled Xia (Who were mostly 'O') and the Altains (Who were mostly 'R1a') was what created the first ancient Xiongnu/Huns.

The first Xiongnu/Huns were probably around 40% 'O' and around 40% 'R1a' the 'O' came from the Chinese exiled from Xia and the 'R1a' came from the local Altains whom they Xia people interbred with. Modern day Uyghurs also give the same story, and they also claim descent from a Xia nobelman name Chunwei. Modern Uyghurs have 'R1b' but their earliest ancestors, the first Xiongnu/Huns didn't.

The 'R1b' in modern day Uyghurs I'm not so sure about. Some say that the Uyghurs got 'R1b' from the ancient Yuezhi people who fled the Tarim Basin when the Xiongnu/Huns attacked them. But others claim that the 'R1b' is far more recent and acquired from Russians during the days of Russian Imperialism.

You thought that a Hunnu is a certain nation and these is awesome wrong. R1A* is a pure Arian line it's nohow it could be a native Altaic.

There were a Huge dispute about kurgan hypothesis, but nothing proves that anyhow significant of pre turkic period caucasoid nomads/gypsies population existed to leave significant genetic traces in mongoloids population. These is a work of more recent period 500 AD when Central Asian caucasoids/caspioids began to settle down second time after the thousand castles civilistaion to settled lifestyle. Mongoloids doesn't mixed with Caucasoids/Caspioids during the thousand castles culture period.

O and R1b are both central Asian in origin. Those markers could have been established the Huns and the Ughyrs thousands of years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O_(Y-DNA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

In fact, current Russians have very few R1b, much less than the portion in Ughyrs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chrom..._DNA_haplogroup

R1a is far too common for it to be the 'Hun' marker. The R1a haplogroup is commonly found in nearly every population from Iceland to India to the Altay Mountains. The Hunnic invasions were never this far reaching. R1a most likely has prehistoric origins.

I know. What I meant was, were Huns mostly R1a, as are the majority of Hungarians today?

In that case, it would be difficult to generalize the Huns. They consisted of a confederation of various different nomadic Central Asian tribes, including Turko-Mongolian and Indo-Iranian tribes, and they were later joined by European tribes as they made their way to Europe. Most of the Central Asian populations today seem to have a common R1a haplogroup, but this particular haplogroup is very limited in the Mongolian population. If it is true that the original Hunnic tribe were the Xiongnu from what is now Mongolia, then they should at least have something in common with the Mongolian population, which has a much higher concentration of the C haplogroup. Therefore, I suspect that the original Hunnic tribe must have had a higher concentration of the C haplogroup rather than R1a, or possibly even both.

It's quite possible that 'R1a' is the Hunnic marker. Neither its occurance in Iceland and India debunks it. Though, I am a littel skeptical about Iceland.

When it comes to India, the ancient Yuezhi people and the Kushan Empire had a lot of contacts with the Xiongu/Huns. The acquirement of the 'R1a' marker may have been more recent from the Mughals. The first Mughals were people of Turko-Mongol ancestrry from the Timurid Empire. They ruled India for over 300 years. When I say 'Turko' I'm not referring to modern day Anatolian-Turks. I mean the Asiatic-Turkic people which include the Altays, people with high portions of 'R1a'

I'm not too familiar with the relationship between the Scandinavians and the Germanic tribes who had significant amounts of contact with the Huns (Gepids, Vandals, Ostrogoth, Visigoth, Alans, etc...) If the ancestors of the Vikings are related to these Germanic tribes, then that may explain why 'R1a' is in Iceland. If not, then the 'R1a' presence in Iceland may serve a big debunker for the Huns = R1a theory. Norse Mythology has a character Atli, derived from the historic Attila: (http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/norseminor.html#Atli).

I highly disagree here. I agree more with the notion that Huns were Altaic 'R1a' when you make your conclusion that Huns were originally C-predominant, you are making a huge fallacy. It's not really your fault, it's due to something which many people don't know about. Many people say that most modern day Mongolians are not the real descendants of the Xiongu/Huns and Chingiz Kahn. Yes these people live in Mongolian as of now, but a few hundred years ago it was inhabited by people who were mostly of an Asiatic-Turkic background.

The change happened when the Manzhu Qing Dynasty conquered the Dzungars and killed around 70 - 80% of them, and the open space was then filled by people of Buryat, Manchu, and a little bit of Han Chinese people. The Dzungars were the real heirs of the Mongol Empire and were made up of Oyrats (Who are mostly 'R1a').

I don't have the source at hand, but a Finnish team couple years ago researched the DNA of "Xiong-nu" Huns in ancient Mongolia. They have the closest DNA to modern Yakuts. A quite high level of Tat-C (Haplogroup N) was found as well as C and Q.

Now, as for the Huns of Europe. They have found Asian mtDNA and Y chromosomes in the ancient graves of the Huns, Avars and Magyars (usually nobility). But, over time the population of the majority Slavs and Germans took over without replacing the language. I am sure the Asian markers still exist in modern Hungarians today, but maybe only 5-8%?

The R1a found in China most probably from Persian and Sogdian/Tocharian merchants who traveled the Silk Road and stayed in China (esp. after Islamic Arabian conquests of their homelands).

The origin of r1a* is a thousand fortress culture thou was latter known as Yuezhi/Sairen/Tocharians..., they were close related to scythians but they weren't their descendands or precessors. Yeuzhi once a part of Hunnu were then kicked out of Hunnu, then kicked away from Central Asia and chased till they climbed on their Pamir mountains. Later they returnded as a Tocharians, and Oirats and part of Karluk tribe got mixed with them during that period. The native backbone of Hunnu, Karluk and Tiele tribes are absolutely nohow related to R* people.

And please, don't call someone a 'Yakut', it's very insulting translated today. Uranghai Sakhalar is far more correct term.

Nope. R1a originated 15000 years ago, R1b originated 18500 years ago, O originated 35000 years ago, way back in the prehistoric times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O_(Y-DNA)

None of those markers are associated even remotely to any "cultures".

The Yuezhi/Kushan people were Indo-European speakers closely related to the Indo-Iranians. As for the Mughals, they did initially have a Turkic elite, but they came in such small numbers that their genetic impact on the massive Indian population is almost negligible.

The R1a haplogroup originated in prehistoric times as silverknight has pointed out. According to the geneticist Stephen Oppenheimer, the highest frequency and diversity of R1a occurs around Pakistan, north India and eastern Iran, therefore it most likely originated from this region in prehistoric times. In particular, the highest frequency of R1a occurs among Kashmiris (72%).

It's also unlikely that R1a was introduced into Eastern Europe from the Altay, because Ukraine has a higher frequency and diversity of R1a than the Altay region. It was also through Ukraine that the Indo-European languages spread to the rest of Europe, so it's more likely that the spread of R1a in Europe occurred due to the spread of the Indo-European languages, rather than the Hunnic invasions.


Are you suggesting that there was a massive genocide against the original inhabitants of Mongolia and that the entire population there was suddenly displaced by foreigners? Do you have any evidence to support this extraordinary claim? I find this highly unlikely, especially considering the fact that the Mongolian language spoken by the Mongols today as their mother tongue is closest to the Mongolian language spoken by Chingis Khan.

As for why the Turks possess a much higher frequency of R1a than the Mongols, this can be explained by the simple fact that they mixed with the earlier Iranian tribes of Central Asia. The Turkic tribes were originally more similar to the Mongols, but it was due to admixture with the Iranian tribes that their appearance and genetics began differing from the Mongols. The Scythians and other Iranian tribes were spread across the whole of Central Asia in ancient times, but then they were later displaced by the Turks across much of the region. Those Iranian tribes were not suddenly wiped out, but they were assimilated into the Turkic populations of Central Asia.

Considering that haplogroup C, which defined the Mongols, appeared far earlier than R1a did, it appears that haplogroup C was very small when R1a dominated. Only until about the 1200's did C dominate Mongolia.

Presence of Tat-C in Ancient Mongolia
International Congress Series
Volume 1261 , April 2004, Pages 325-327

Does the Tat polymorphism originate in northern Mongolia?

C. Keyser-Tracqui et al.

Abstract

It has been suggested that the Y-chromosomal T→C transition arose in Mongolia ~2400–4000 years ago. To test this hypothesis, we screened 2300-year-old Mongolian male specimens and ancient Yakut male specimens for this Y-chromosomal marker. Our results demonstrate that the mutation was present in Asia 2300 years ago.

In the past few years, a large number of polymorphic markers have been identified on the Y chromosome. Among these is the T→C transition (locus RBF5) reported by Zerjal et al. [1] and later called the Tat-polymorphism. The C allele of this biallelic marker has so far been observed only in populations from Asia and northern Europe. It reaches its highest frequency in Yakuts, Buryats, northeastern Siberian populations and Finns (Table 1).

In this study, we screened ancient Mongolian samples from the Egyin Gol necropolis for the Tat marker. The Egyin Gol necropolis, located in northern Mongolia, is ~2300 years old and belongs to the Xiongnu culture [3]. In addition, we genotyped the T→C mutation in ancient Yakut specimens excavated at two sites in the Sakha Republic (Yakutia) [4].

All of the seven ancient Yakut individuals tested showed the C allele, confirming that the mutation occurred most probably before their migration from southern regions. Concerning the Xiongnu people, two of them harboured the mutation suggesting that the Tat polymorphism already existed in Mongolia 2300 years ago.

In conclusion, our study showed that the C allele was present in parent populations to the modern inhabitants of Mongolia or Yakutia, suggesting that the mutation may have arisen in Mongolia more than 2400 years ago [1]. Moreover, our work suggests that the Xiongnu tribe under study may have been composed of some of the ancestors of the present-day Yakut population.

>Nope. R1a originated 15000 years ago, R1b originated 18500 years ago, O originated 35000 years ago, way back in the prehistoric times.

I'm talking about R1a origins in Central Asia. And the Thousand Fortress and their preceding cultures are historicaly known to be originated in Pamir mountains, somewhere around modern day Afghanstan. Their very massive migration came to Central Asia around 1900 B.C., but the TF culture are proven to have more older fortress, 2800 BC. These is controversial topic, but very recent, yet not published Uzbek archeology researches have raised the question about the wrong Iranian origin identifcation of pre 2000 BC dated fortress. And I highly doubt that the people of TF culture began to build fortresses instantly after they came to Central Asia, especialy mentioning their possible nomadic/gypsy lifestyle before they settled down. I my opinion it's quite possible that the fortresses could be simply taken over by them.

haplogroup c is a haplogroup of negritos.

You know R1a is native to Central Asia, the highest percentage is amongst Afghani Pashtuns 50% especially Khans (Khan DNA Project 90%), Tajik Afghanis near the CHinese border also have a high % of R1a, its more like an Indo-Iranian marker in that region, but it passed to Turkified Indo-Iranian speakers also

R1a1a distribution according to The Genetic Atlas

The Huns were Asians who got phased into extinction by white people. Reminds me of the Asian American community.