2008 GDP Per Capita
Singapore: $41,291
Macau: $39,823
Japan: $37,940
Hong Kong: $31,849
South Korea: $19,638
North Korea: Not Applicable, No Data
Taiwan: $18,306
China: $3,180
Mongolia: $1,880
Vietnam: $1,047
Full Version: GDP Per Capita of Countries with Confucianist Culture
http://www.dfat.gov.au/GEO/fs/
2008 GDP Per Capita
Singapore: $41,291
Macau: $39,823
Japan: $37,940
Hong Kong: $31,849
South Korea: $19,638
North Korea: Not Applicable, No Data
Taiwan: $18,306
China: $3,180
Mongolia: $1,880
Vietnam: $1,047
2008 GDP Per Capita
Singapore: $41,291
Macau: $39,823
Japan: $37,940
Hong Kong: $31,849
South Korea: $19,638
North Korea: Not Applicable, No Data
Taiwan: $18,306
China: $3,180
Mongolia: $1,880
Vietnam: $1,047
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism
Confucianism (Chinese: 儒家; pinyin: Rújiā) is a Chinese ethical and philosophical system developed from the teachings of the Chinese philosopher Confucius (Kǒng Fūzǐ, or K'ung-fu-tzu, lit. "Master Kung", 551–479 BCE). It focuses on human morality and right action. Confucianism is a complex system of moral, social, political, philosophical, and quasi-religious thought that has had tremendous influence on the culture and history of East Asia. It might be considered a state religion of some East Asian countries, because of governmental promotion of Confucian values.
Cultures and countries strongly influenced by Confucianism include China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Vietnam, as well as various territories settled predominantly by Chinese people.
The basic teachings of Confucianism stress the importance of education for moral development of the individual so that the state can be governed by moral virtue rather than by the use of coercive laws.[1]
Confucianism (Chinese: 儒家; pinyin: Rújiā) is a Chinese ethical and philosophical system developed from the teachings of the Chinese philosopher Confucius (Kǒng Fūzǐ, or K'ung-fu-tzu, lit. "Master Kung", 551–479 BCE). It focuses on human morality and right action. Confucianism is a complex system of moral, social, political, philosophical, and quasi-religious thought that has had tremendous influence on the culture and history of East Asia. It might be considered a state religion of some East Asian countries, because of governmental promotion of Confucian values.
Cultures and countries strongly influenced by Confucianism include China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Vietnam, as well as various territories settled predominantly by Chinese people.
The basic teachings of Confucianism stress the importance of education for moral development of the individual so that the state can be governed by moral virtue rather than by the use of coercive laws.[1]
QUOTE(SoCal @ Jan 12 2009, 04:46 PM) [snapback]4082488[/snapback]
Hong Kong: $31,849
$42,123 actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong
Look on the right hand side.
Thank you, Tehan. 
I am using the data from Australia government from this link, http://www.dfat.gov.au/GEO/fs/.
The list above is for Nominal GDP Per Capita, not PPP GDP Per Capita.
I am using the data from Australia government from this link, http://www.dfat.gov.au/GEO/fs/.
The list above is for Nominal GDP Per Capita, not PPP GDP Per Capita.
Read this to see why economic power shift will shift to the east. I will make it simple =)
Gross Domestic Product is sometimes not an accurate indicator of a country's economic health. GDP is basically the total value of all transactions of goods and services that occur in a country, regardless of national origin. that's it, it does not take into consideration manufacturing capacity, account balance, foreign reserves, consumer debt, savings, source of GDP(is it due to hard work and manufacturing like China, Japan, South Korea) or due to borrowing and spending a lot of money(United States, Britain, some western countries).
some countries high GDP per capita is misleading.....some western countries and United States examples given.
for example, in the United States, people don't really manufacture anything anymore, have to borrow so much money to finance its stimulus package, and running on consumer debt and its economy is basically 70% consumer spending from credit cards and mortgage loans and not enough production. basically let's say 20,000 Hondas are made in Japan, gets exported to the United States and a transactions occurs between an american honda dealers and a consumers. those 20,000 honda transaction counts into the american GDP as if americans worked hard to produce that 20,000 Hondas even though in reality americans did not do anything for these 20000 hondas to add into the GDP, even though no real wealth is produced by the united states. U.S. GDP is kinda b.s. as its high GDP is based on the fact that americans just borrow from the credit cards, mortgage loans and consume and spend it, which results with high transactions of goods and services, but have to beg and borrow from other countries to lend money and send us manufactured goods, while u.s. offers nothing in return. it's just a lot of transactions of goods and services and people spending a lot of their money with no savings and borrowing from credit cards and mortgage loans with no real wealth production.
another example, let's say united states imports 300 billions of chinese made goods and borrows 300 billion to buy it. that 300 billion of imported chinese goods gets sold to american consumers at wal-mart, target etc....and gets adds 300 billions to the american GDP, claiming american economic growth because the sale occurs on american soil!
in contrast, china can count that 300 billion as real ecnomic GDP wealth as it made money by making the product and selling it, while the u.s. counts that 300 billion as real economic GDP wealth even though it owes money and did not do anything.
same with some western countries like Britain, France, Australia, etc.....high GDP per capita, but underneath, beggar country and full of debt, GDP based on massive consumer spending and borrowing, not enough production and savings, function of just consuming things instead of true ecnomic growth.
it's crap. you can't have an economy not manufacturing anything and not producing true wealth and based on consumer spending as in some western countries. when some countries stop lending money and stop sending goods, the economy will be in a mess.
contrast this to China, South Korea and Japan. Their GDP could be somewhat higher, if they spend a little bit more money and consume at bit more instead of lending it to the United States, etc....China SK and Japan GDP is based on hard work manufacturing and producing true wealth and not based on consumer spending borrowing money.
west = crap fake economy based on begging and spending money, not a function of hard work and real wealth created, more a function of consumer spending and borrowing a lot of money. phoney inflated high GDP per capita. they are going to implode in the future and their standard of livings will decrease.
south korea, china, and japan = real ecnomy based on hard work manufacturing and creating real wealth, with high savings, and consumer spending is controlled and living below their means. real under-inflated high GDP per capita. they are living considerably below their means for the true ecnonomic wealth they produce.
just compare the account deficits, balances, foreign reserves between east asian and west. who has more money and savings in the bank? economic power shift to the east from the west. west will lose its mantle due to its young population getting more lazy and more spoiled and consumer spending frenzy and not enough hard real wealth created work to justify its over inflated and undeserved high standard of livings.
Gross Domestic Product is sometimes not an accurate indicator of a country's economic health. GDP is basically the total value of all transactions of goods and services that occur in a country, regardless of national origin. that's it, it does not take into consideration manufacturing capacity, account balance, foreign reserves, consumer debt, savings, source of GDP(is it due to hard work and manufacturing like China, Japan, South Korea) or due to borrowing and spending a lot of money(United States, Britain, some western countries).
some countries high GDP per capita is misleading.....some western countries and United States examples given.
for example, in the United States, people don't really manufacture anything anymore, have to borrow so much money to finance its stimulus package, and running on consumer debt and its economy is basically 70% consumer spending from credit cards and mortgage loans and not enough production. basically let's say 20,000 Hondas are made in Japan, gets exported to the United States and a transactions occurs between an american honda dealers and a consumers. those 20,000 honda transaction counts into the american GDP as if americans worked hard to produce that 20,000 Hondas even though in reality americans did not do anything for these 20000 hondas to add into the GDP, even though no real wealth is produced by the united states. U.S. GDP is kinda b.s. as its high GDP is based on the fact that americans just borrow from the credit cards, mortgage loans and consume and spend it, which results with high transactions of goods and services, but have to beg and borrow from other countries to lend money and send us manufactured goods, while u.s. offers nothing in return. it's just a lot of transactions of goods and services and people spending a lot of their money with no savings and borrowing from credit cards and mortgage loans with no real wealth production.
another example, let's say united states imports 300 billions of chinese made goods and borrows 300 billion to buy it. that 300 billion of imported chinese goods gets sold to american consumers at wal-mart, target etc....and gets adds 300 billions to the american GDP, claiming american economic growth because the sale occurs on american soil!
in contrast, china can count that 300 billion as real ecnomic GDP wealth as it made money by making the product and selling it, while the u.s. counts that 300 billion as real economic GDP wealth even though it owes money and did not do anything.
same with some western countries like Britain, France, Australia, etc.....high GDP per capita, but underneath, beggar country and full of debt, GDP based on massive consumer spending and borrowing, not enough production and savings, function of just consuming things instead of true ecnomic growth.
it's crap. you can't have an economy not manufacturing anything and not producing true wealth and based on consumer spending as in some western countries. when some countries stop lending money and stop sending goods, the economy will be in a mess.
contrast this to China, South Korea and Japan. Their GDP could be somewhat higher, if they spend a little bit more money and consume at bit more instead of lending it to the United States, etc....China SK and Japan GDP is based on hard work manufacturing and producing true wealth and not based on consumer spending borrowing money.
west = crap fake economy based on begging and spending money, not a function of hard work and real wealth created, more a function of consumer spending and borrowing a lot of money. phoney inflated high GDP per capita. they are going to implode in the future and their standard of livings will decrease.
south korea, china, and japan = real ecnomy based on hard work manufacturing and creating real wealth, with high savings, and consumer spending is controlled and living below their means. real under-inflated high GDP per capita. they are living considerably below their means for the true ecnonomic wealth they produce.
just compare the account deficits, balances, foreign reserves between east asian and west. who has more money and savings in the bank? economic power shift to the east from the west. west will lose its mantle due to its young population getting more lazy and more spoiled and consumer spending frenzy and not enough hard real wealth created work to justify its over inflated and undeserved high standard of livings.
^i agree with you, but there is no better way of measuring the nation wealth without taking account for GDP per capita.
it's a good measurement of the "general" wealth of nation.
however regarding the standard of living, ability to purchase, saving/spending, i think GDP per capita PPP is a bettter indicator as it accounts the inflation rate, the cost of housing/food, exchange rate, etc..
base on GDP per capita PPP of all East Asia country in 2008:
8 Singapore $48,900
14 Hong Kong $42,000
32 Japan $33,800
38 Taiwan $29,800
44 Korea, South $24,600
46 Macau $24,300
111 China $5,300
129 Mongolia $2,900
131 Vietnam $2,600 (can be consider a Confucianism state)
138 Korea, North $1,900
http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/gd...ita_2008_0.html
it's a good measurement of the "general" wealth of nation.
however regarding the standard of living, ability to purchase, saving/spending, i think GDP per capita PPP is a bettter indicator as it accounts the inflation rate, the cost of housing/food, exchange rate, etc..
base on GDP per capita PPP of all East Asia country in 2008:
8 Singapore $48,900
14 Hong Kong $42,000
32 Japan $33,800
38 Taiwan $29,800
44 Korea, South $24,600
46 Macau $24,300
111 China $5,300
129 Mongolia $2,900
131 Vietnam $2,600 (can be consider a Confucianism state)
138 Korea, North $1,900
http://www.photius.com/rankings/economy/gd...ita_2008_0.html
Since GDP per capita is not an accurate indicator of Standard of living or cost of living, rather just the economic activity of the economy spurn out per individual within the population...
It just means that an individual living in Hong kong, Japan, or Singapore just produce/sell/spend/purchase more goods and services than their counterparts in other countries.
Confuciaint culture promotes economic activities?
It just means that an individual living in Hong kong, Japan, or Singapore just produce/sell/spend/purchase more goods and services than their counterparts in other countries.
Confuciaint culture promotes economic activities?
QUOTE(SoCal @ Jan 13 2009, 09:34 AM) [snapback]4083497[/snapback]
Thank you, Tehan.
omg, a person with manners, this is....impressive to Tehan- you are very welcome
QUOTE(Tehan @ Jan 14 2009, 12:53 AM) [snapback]4084630[/snapback]
omg, a person with manners, this is....impressive to Tehan- you are very welcome
Tehan
After almost 10,000 posts on here, I have learned the art of courtesy and respect.
Regards,
QUOTE(Made in China @ Jan 14 2009, 12:20 AM) [snapback]4084445[/snapback]
Since GDP per capita is not an accurate indicator of Standard of living or cost of living, rather just the economic activity of the economy spurn out per individual within the population...
It just means that an individual living in Hong kong, Japan, or Singapore just produce/sell/spend/purchase more goods and services than their counterparts in other countries.
Confuciaint culture promotes economic activities?
It just means that an individual living in Hong kong, Japan, or Singapore just produce/sell/spend/purchase more goods and services than their counterparts in other countries.
Confuciaint culture promotes economic activities?
are you trying to funny?
it's ok to spend money and purchases, as long if you created enough real wealth or real valuable export services that justify it. HK, Singapore and Japan are different, they save their money, work hard. they can spend. if you have money in the bank that's fine. if you have to spend money on credit and borrowing, then it's a different story.
China, Japan, SK, HK economic activity is working hard, savings, and purchasing things on a debit card and their checking/banking accounts.
United States economic activity is borrowing trillions from china, japan, etc., and its phony service sector retail sales mall economy is based on buying things on a big credit card bill that's getting bigger and based on foreigners making and sending things to the united states and lending money. The United States is no longer the engine of the world economy, in the past yes as it produces real wealth and exported to other countries and saved and invested its money. Now it's the opposite, the United States as a country is useless and consume all the world money and resources, while offering not much in return as its is service based economy and does not have enough value service to export to other countries.
I think China realizes that the united states can't never pay back, so it announced its $586 billion stimulus package, why lend to the united states when they owe trillions and can never pay it back, when you can keep it and spend it on yourself?
countries gdp based on borrowing and spending a lot, their economies will implode sooner or later, as in the real world you are suppose to work hard and spend what you can afford.
that's what the west is. it's like a "rich" guy who has a big house, a Ferrari, and fancy clothes but one day loses all of it and can't afford to pay his bills, as the credit card interest is not manageable and get he can no longer pay the minimum payment with his 40k a year paycheck.
east asia is like a "poor" guy who has a tiny apartment, an older toyota camry, and cheap target clothes, but his bank account is full of money as he makes a good 100k a year living and has $100,000+ in savings.
westerners as a whole(not saying everyone because there are frugile people here and there) are "rich" guys who in the future will be bankrupt sore losers, and east asia as a whole, are "poor" guys who will be living the good life. that's the reality.
QUOTE(kennyboy @ Jan 14 2009, 04:06 PM) [snapback]4085104[/snapback]
are you trying to funny?
it's ok to spend money and purchases, as long if you created enough real wealth or real valuable export services that justify it. HK, Singapore and Japan are different, they save their money, work hard. they can spend. if you have money in the bank that's fine. if you have to spend money on credit and borrowing, then it's a different story.
China, Japan, SK, HK economic activity is working hard, savings, and purchasing things on a debit card and their checking/banking accounts.
United States economic activity is borrowing trillions from china, japan, etc., and its phony service sector retail sales mall economy is based on buying things on a big credit card bill that's getting bigger and based on foreigners making and sending things to the united states and lending money. The United States is no longer the engine of the world economy, in the past yes as it produces real wealth and exported to other countries and saved and invested its money. Now it's the opposite, the United States as a country is useless and consume all the world money and resources, while offering not much in return as its is service based economy and does not have enough value service to export to other countries.
I think China realizes that the united states can't never pay back, so it announced its $586 billion stimulus package, why lend to the united states when they owe trillions and can never pay it back, when you can keep it and spend it on yourself?
countries gdp based on borrowing and spending a lot, their economies will implode sooner or later, as in the real world you are suppose to work hard and spend what you can afford.
that's what the west is. it's like a "rich" guy who has a big house, a Ferrari, and fancy clothes but one day loses all of it and can't afford to pay his bills, as the credit card interest is not manageable and get he can no longer pay the minimum payment with his 40k a year paycheck.
east asia is like a "poor" guy who has a tiny apartment, an older toyota camry, and cheap target clothes, but his bank account is full of money as he makes a good 100k a year living and has $100,000+ in savings.
westerners as a whole(not saying everyone because there are frugile people here and there) are "rich" guys who in the future will be bankrupt sore losers, and east asia as a whole, are "poor" guys who will be living the good life. that's the reality.
it's ok to spend money and purchases, as long if you created enough real wealth or real valuable export services that justify it. HK, Singapore and Japan are different, they save their money, work hard. they can spend. if you have money in the bank that's fine. if you have to spend money on credit and borrowing, then it's a different story.
China, Japan, SK, HK economic activity is working hard, savings, and purchasing things on a debit card and their checking/banking accounts.
United States economic activity is borrowing trillions from china, japan, etc., and its phony service sector retail sales mall economy is based on buying things on a big credit card bill that's getting bigger and based on foreigners making and sending things to the united states and lending money. The United States is no longer the engine of the world economy, in the past yes as it produces real wealth and exported to other countries and saved and invested its money. Now it's the opposite, the United States as a country is useless and consume all the world money and resources, while offering not much in return as its is service based economy and does not have enough value service to export to other countries.
I think China realizes that the united states can't never pay back, so it announced its $586 billion stimulus package, why lend to the united states when they owe trillions and can never pay it back, when you can keep it and spend it on yourself?
countries gdp based on borrowing and spending a lot, their economies will implode sooner or later, as in the real world you are suppose to work hard and spend what you can afford.
that's what the west is. it's like a "rich" guy who has a big house, a Ferrari, and fancy clothes but one day loses all of it and can't afford to pay his bills, as the credit card interest is not manageable and get he can no longer pay the minimum payment with his 40k a year paycheck.
east asia is like a "poor" guy who has a tiny apartment, an older toyota camry, and cheap target clothes, but his bank account is full of money as he makes a good 100k a year living and has $100,000+ in savings.
westerners as a whole(not saying everyone because there are frugile people here and there) are "rich" guys who in the future will be bankrupt sore losers, and east asia as a whole, are "poor" guys who will be living the good life. that's the reality.
China would not lend 675 billion dollars to US if it believes US cannot pay it back.
US can do money finance or debt finance (issue treasury bonds to cover the national debt) in order to finance the multi trillion dollar debt. In theory and in practice, the national debt can ALWAYS be paid back by issuing more treasury bonds to pay back the last order of ND that comes knocking on the door. US can theoretically continue this practice so long as investors have confidence that the treasury bond is a worthy asset to acquire and that the US government will not fail.
US government will never fail because it has tens of trillions of physical assets to sell off to compensate for the debt before it goes bankrupt and collaspes and falls. US Treasury bonds are considered almost surely guarantee return on investments since I'm pretty sure US government will not disappear anytime soon.
Plus, its not like China will not loan to US if it knows it can't pay back. Like all banks, China owns US assets, thus if US defaults, US must sell nearly $30 trillion dollars of its physical assets which it uses as collateral in case it can't satisfy the loan requirements or if it defaults.
Why does China continue loaning to the US? Because US can pay it back, via forcibly selling over $30 trillion dollars of physical assets it owns, or by money and debt finance.
Why is it GOOD for China to loan to the US? The interest earned of course is sucking money out of the US, as you learn in Macro, interest given away on loans that is money financed (as in given away TO the American people) is always better than interest given away to a foreign entity who gives the loan to begin with.
It's actually good for China to collect interest from the loans to the US because interest = $$$.
US has historically reigned in huge national debts before, under President Clinton for example, spending was reigned in and ND as a percentage of GDP grew to near zero and ND was turned into a surplus.
Why does China spend 585 billion dollar stimulus to stimulate it's own economy? It's economy is intertwined with the global markets so once US markets start to fail, Chinese markets start to fail, China like many nations around the world MUST inject capital and raise its own ND in order to keep its economy alive.
In the end, blame US for all this debacle. It's US that is causing a world wide downturn or a world wide recession right now. lol
Kennyboy: I also decided to read your entire post...
Unless you believe that China will turn fully capitalist within the next decade or so, a semi capitalist economy run by centrally controlled government will never be able to fully compete with other full fledge capitalist economies on the same level of playing field.
Turn all Chinese cities into Hong Kong-like economies with economic freedoms of private investings,not just SEZ zones, and then your comparison about Western nation's economies and Chinese economies will be valid.
How can you expect to play on the same level of playing field as United States or EU when your economy is heavily influenced by ppl in charge in the government....and economic freedom is restricted.
Like, Hong Kong/Singapore is the example of what Chinese cities can be. Full potential of Chinese cities will be limited due to limitations in terms of system of the market that exist in China today.
Unless you believe that China will turn fully capitalist within the next decade or so, a semi capitalist economy run by centrally controlled government will never be able to fully compete with other full fledge capitalist economies on the same level of playing field.
Turn all Chinese cities into Hong Kong-like economies with economic freedoms of private investings,not just SEZ zones, and then your comparison about Western nation's economies and Chinese economies will be valid.
How can you expect to play on the same level of playing field as United States or EU when your economy is heavily influenced by ppl in charge in the government....and economic freedom is restricted.
Like, Hong Kong/Singapore is the example of what Chinese cities can be. Full potential of Chinese cities will be limited due to limitations in terms of system of the market that exist in China today.
QUOTE(Made in China @ Jan 15 2009, 12:49 AM) [snapback]4085790[/snapback]
China would not lend 675 billion dollars to US if it believes US cannot pay it back.
US can do money finance or debt finance (issue treasury bonds to cover the national debt) in order to finance the multi trillion dollar debt. In theory and in practice, the national debt can ALWAYS be paid back by issuing more treasury bonds to pay back the last order of ND that comes knocking on the door. US can theoretically continue this practice so long as investors have confidence that the treasury bond is a worthy asset to acquire and that the US government will not fail.
US can do money finance or debt finance (issue treasury bonds to cover the national debt) in order to finance the multi trillion dollar debt. In theory and in practice, the national debt can ALWAYS be paid back by issuing more treasury bonds to pay back the last order of ND that comes knocking on the door. US can theoretically continue this practice so long as investors have confidence that the treasury bond is a worthy asset to acquire and that the US government will not fail.
This is a terrible practice, doing this will destroy the United States economy. What you are suggesting is a weapon of mass destruction to destroy the U.S. economy. Most or more and more of the treasury bonds and bills are owned by foreigners. These are IOUS, they have to be paid back!
What you are suggesting is that the United States continue to print more and more money, issue more IOUS and continue to get into deeper and deeper into debt to pay back its debt. What you are saying is like you having $50,000 credit card bill, but continue to borrow money from that same credit card to pay back the minimum payment/interest. What happens is that 50,000 credit card bill turns into 100,000+. This is terrible monetary policy. You know it, I know it.
What if foreign investors want their money back? This is going to happen sooner or later. What if the massive dollars and treasury bonds/bills hoarded by foreigners start coming back to the United States? Once those dollars and treasury comes back to the United States in wave, this is going to kill the U.S. This is going to drive inflation and the u.s. currency and economy and government will be in very deep trouble. What if investors lose their confidence? That means the U.S. stimulus package won’t be financed, the U.S. can’t pay back its debt because the national savings of the United States is zero, probably negative right now due to the economic crisis. If this happens, the party is over for the United States.
QUOTE
US government will never fail because it has tens of trillions of physical assets to sell off to compensate for the debt before it goes bankrupt and collaspes and falls. US Treasury bonds are considered almost surely guarantee return on investments since I'm pretty sure US government will not disappear anytime soon.
Tens of trillions of physical assets….I don’t know about that. Sounds way over-inflated and b.s. to me. It’s like the real estate house bubble. People thought they were getting richer when they purchase a house when home prices started going up and up. They were able to take out a lot of money and thought they were getting richer and richer, but in reality that is fake over-valued home asset wealth when those home prices starting crashing down. People thought they won the lottery when they purchase a house and automatically got $50,000-$100,000 or whatever amount richer.
US treasury bonds are junk. They are just as guaranteed investment and good as junk subprime mortgages. US Treasury and Bonds market is like a Ponzi scheme, triangle scheme, like Madoff. The only way the United States can pay back its IOUS and interest on government bonds and treasuries is borrowing more and more from investors. What if there are no more investors? What happens is that there are no more money coming in from investors? The whole treasury bond and market will start crashing big time and implode because the u.s can’t pay back its bills and who wants to invest in government bonds and treasuries when the united states can’t pay back? I wouldn’t.
QUOTE
Plus, its not like China will not loan to US if it knows it can't pay back. Like all banks, China owns US assets, thus if US defaults, US must sell nearly $30 trillion dollars of its physical assets which it uses as collateral in case it can't satisfy the loan requirements or if it defaults.
Why does China continue loaning to the US? Because US can pay it back, via forcibly selling over $30 trillion dollars of physical assets it owns, or by money and debt finance.
Why is it GOOD for China to loan to the US? The interest earned of course is sucking money out of the US, as you learn in Macro, interest given away on loans that is money financed (as in given away TO the American people) is always better than interest given away to a foreign entity who gives the loan to begin with.
It's actually good for China to collect interest from the loans to the US because interest = $$$.
Why does China continue loaning to the US? Because US can pay it back, via forcibly selling over $30 trillion dollars of physical assets it owns, or by money and debt finance.
Why is it GOOD for China to loan to the US? The interest earned of course is sucking money out of the US, as you learn in Macro, interest given away on loans that is money financed (as in given away TO the American people) is always better than interest given away to a foreign entity who gives the loan to begin with.
It's actually good for China to collect interest from the loans to the US because interest = $$$.
I think Chinese economists know what is going on. They are not going to lend more money as the United States owes $1 trillion to China already. They are not going to sell and demand payment back yet because that won’t help the situation and irritate the situation.
QUOTE
US has historically reigned in huge national debts before, under President Clinton for example, spending was reigned in and ND as a percentage of GDP grew to near zero and ND was turned into a surplus.
Clinton did a good job. But Bush screwed it up and this time around, Barack Obama is going to spend and spend and spend and spend more money! He is not cutting government spending. He is going to aggravate the situation even more. He has all these social programs and mandate for change and united states government is going to owe and owe and owe more money and borrow more and more money. What the U.S needs to do is cut a lot spending, start saving, start making stuff and produce, and stop consuming.
Same for individuals. If you want to have money and get out of debt, you have to stop spending, start saving and paying off your debts, start going to work and get raises and stop consuming and stop nothing doing.
QUOTE
Why does China spend 585 billion dollar stimulus to stimulate it's own economy? It's economy is intertwined with the global markets so once US markets start to fail, Chinese markets start to fail, China like many nations around the world MUST inject capital and raise its own ND in order to keep its economy alive.
In the end, blame US for all this debacle. It's US that is causing a world wide downturn or a world wide recession right now. lol
In the end, blame US for all this debacle. It's US that is causing a world wide downturn or a world wide recession right now. lol
But China is in a much better situation than the United States. China has $2 trillion in foreign reserves. United States has what, only $40 billion? China has a lot of money in the bank, the United States have a big fat credit card bill. China makes things and export things to other countries and earn trade surpluses and income, United States does not earn any income from trade, it owes money. United States is getting negative economic growth, Chinese economy is still growing at 8%…..
China can afford its own stimulus package as it has a lot of money saved up, United States can’t afford its own stimulus package as it will get into deeper and deeper into debt.
The U.S is in a disaster.
QUOTE(Made in China @ Jan 15 2009, 12:59 AM) [snapback]4085796[/snapback]
Kennyboy: I also decided to read your entire post...
Unless you believe that China will turn fully capitalist within the next decade or so, a semi capitalist economy run by centrally controlled government will never be able to fully compete with other full fledge capitalist economies on the same level of playing field.
Unless you believe that China will turn fully capitalist within the next decade or so, a semi capitalist economy run by centrally controlled government will never be able to fully compete with other full fledge capitalist economies on the same level of playing field.
If China can't compete with other economies, then why does it have the fastest growing economy on the entire planet for last 30 years or so and still growing despite the global recession? China is a capitalist country with a bit of government regulation. It's not communist, it's capitalistic. If China was not very capitalistic, it wouldn't be growing that fast.
QUOTE
Turn all Chinese cities into Hong Kong-like economies with economic freedoms of private investings,not just SEZ zones, and then your comparison about Western nation's economies and Chinese economies will be valid.
How can you expect to play on the same level of playing field as United States or EU when your economy is heavily influenced by ppl in charge in the government....and economic freedom is restricted.
Like, Hong Kong/Singapore is the example of what Chinese cities can be. Full potential of Chinese cities will be limited due to limitations in terms of system of the market that exist in China today.
How can you expect to play on the same level of playing field as United States or EU when your economy is heavily influenced by ppl in charge in the government....and economic freedom is restricted.
Like, Hong Kong/Singapore is the example of what Chinese cities can be. Full potential of Chinese cities will be limited due to limitations in terms of system of the market that exist in China today.
I disagree. Chinese civilization has a long history of capitalism and free market. It was the biggest economy on the planet for quite some time and in ancient times had the most advanced economy and high GDP per capita and high standard of living.
Chinese government officials are pragmatic. They understand basic economics very well. Chinese banks were in horrible shape a decade ago, now they are among the biggest in terms of health and market capitalization. 2 of the 3 biggest banks in the world are Chinese. why don't you compare the trade surpluses and growth of china for the past 30 years?
Why don't you compare the chinese economy in 1978, to 2008 and come back and tell me that china is not in a same competing field and can't compete against other economies in the world??
I disagree, China is on the same level of playing field as the United States or EU, if not better. It has far more money saved up for future investments in science and technology, economics and factories, far more potential for growth and it has not fully developed yet. and just getting started.
QUOTE(kennyboy @ Jan 15 2009, 02:20 PM) [snapback]4086268[/snapback]
If China can't compete with other economies, then why does it have the fastest growing economy on the entire planet for last 30 years or so and still growing despite the global recession? China is a capitalist country with a bit of government regulation. It's not communist, it's capitalistic. If China was not very capitalistic, it wouldn't be growing that fast.
I disagree. Chinese civilization has a long history of capitalism and free market. It was the biggest economy on the planet for quite some time and in ancient times had the most advanced economy and high GDP per capita and high standard of living.
I disagree. Chinese civilization has a long history of capitalism and free market. It was the biggest economy on the planet for quite some time and in ancient times had the most advanced economy and high GDP per capita and high standard of living.
Totally agree that the government officials are pragmatic.
Even by today's standards ,China is still a centrally-planned economy that is one of the most highly regulated in the world. Regulation exists at a number of different tiers, imposed by national, regional and local authorities. Foreign investment is controlled and regulated, and the judicial system is highly politicized. The state maintains tight control of the financial sector and directly or indirectly owns all banks.
China is an authoritarian state that has liberalized its economy markedly since the early 1980s. However, the ruling Communist Party maintains tight control of private enterprise, the economy, political expression, speech, assembly, and religion.
Mexico, Thailand, South Africa are ranked higher in terms of economic freedom than China.
http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx
Just because China's rapid 10% growth per annum doesn't mean that it has a capitalist system.
If you think China has a capitalist system, you haven't done business in China or know anyone else who has done business in China... lol. It is a highly politicized process, China does not let just anyone become a millionaire. You have to be fervently pro-Beijing for them to allow you to monopolize an industry lol.
QUOTE(Made in China @ Jan 16 2009, 01:59 AM) [snapback]4087241[/snapback]
Totally agree that the government officials are pragmatic.
The reason why china can do this is because it is a one party government. Once a plan is implemented, it usually sticks with it. It also has to do with the top political party leaders' background, they are engineers who are very pragmatic and come up with a plan and design that works and is feasible. Contrast this to the u.s., where politicians are used to talking and arguing too much and majored in law, and the u.s. does not have a clear goal/plan has it is a 2 party system.
It also can get things done as well as it does not need to deal with too much arguing and talking and its is performance-based government. If you suck, if your province does not generate enough jobs, etc....you get canned. In the U.S., if you suck, you stay in office until your term ends or you get voted out and lose to another candidate.
QUOTE
Even by today's standards ,China is still a centrally-planned economy that is one of the most highly regulated in the world. Regulation exists at a number of different tiers, imposed by national, regional and local authorities. Foreign investment is controlled and regulated, and the judicial system is highly politicized. The state maintains tight control of the financial sector and directly or indirectly owns all banks.
I prefer to call China, controlled capitalist economy, a guided capitalist economy that is guided by the state and its economy carefully crafted and planned. Or you can call it smart, well managed central planning economy, that is centrally planned by the government but with the government with a lot of skilled technocrafts and know their economics and financial background really well and know what they are doing.
Whatever the case it works for China. China does not want to be like Russia, when Russia just switched to free fall capitalist from central planning, Russia was ruined economically and was on the brink of total economic freefall and disaster. It is better to go slow, that just shock therapy. Russia's case from central planning to capitalist was all shock and no therapy. It didn't help. Chinese don't want that.
I thought it was great that China maintains tight financial regulation. Look at what is happening at the western financial markets......they were unregulated and people came up with exotic b.s. financial products and financial engineering, that were so complicated and weird that banks and some people did not understand it at all and people came up with a lot of "new rules" that did not make sense. Derivatives and the exotic financial services and products are crap and b.s. You can't get rich with financial engineering, you need to make products and earn money the real way instead of "number fidgeting, financial forecasting and not making anything/selling anything and not making money".
Chinese officials thought what the wall street and the western financial institutions were doing did not make sense and distorted the real economy. When chinese economists explained to party leaders to deng xiaopeng and the "chinese congress" what the west was doing, they just laughed out loud. The Chinese economists said that the western institutions/wall street were doing was promoting companies and inflating its net worth/asset and values by using a whole bunch of mirrors.
Let's say the real net asset worth of a car company is 100 cars. What wall street and these financial professionals did was get a whole bunch of mirrors and sold the mirror image of these cars, or sold the mirror image of the mirror image of these cars and gave investors the false impression that instead of the company in reality having 100 cars, it had 100000 cars, overinflating and bull$hitting its value and people thought this company was doing well, had this much asset, was worth this much and invested their money.
Chinese thought it was cheating, creating fake paper wealth and all non-sense and it was ridiculed and the chinese just laughed at it. Seems like they were right. It was all a load of crap. China is affected economically a bit because western economies are doing bad right now, but not affected by the financial markets itself. China stuck with basic economic fundamentals and basic mathematics instead of made up new wall street type financial rules and mathematics.
Westerners used to laugh at chinese for having no financial market skills and used to lecture the chinese on the right way, saying chinese regulated their financial markets way too much and need deregulation. now chinese laugh at westerners. LOL!!!!
hey, i produced 10 computers, i can create a computer company, have this wall street/western financial guy do some exotic mathematics and advanced theoretical b.s. financial numbering, make it look like i made 1000 computers this month, then have the investors get confused and think my computer company is doing well, and confuse United States, Britian, or whatever country i reside in, and make them think i added 1000 computers value to the GDP and think we are doing that well.
ROFL. bunch of crap.
while westerners sit on their computers(made in china probably) messing with graphs and numbers over-inflating their GDP and wealth and not making enough manufactured goods, china is busy creating real factories, real manufactured goods, real production, real job creation and too busy to become the powerful dominant economy and upcoming superpower in the world.
hey, i have a mirror at home. maybe i can "double" my net asset worth!!
QUOTE
China is an authoritarian state that has liberalized its economy markedly since the early 1980s. However, the ruling Communist Party maintains tight control of private enterprise, the economy, political expression, speech, assembly, and religion.
Mexico, Thailand, South Africa are ranked higher in terms of economic freedom than China.
http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx
Just because China's rapid 10% growth per annum doesn't mean that it has a capitalist system.
If you think China has a capitalist system, you haven't done business in China or know anyone else who has done business in China... lol. It is a highly politicized process, China does not let just anyone become a millionaire. You have to be fervently pro-Beijing for them to allow you to monopolize an industry lol.
Mexico, Thailand, South Africa are ranked higher in terms of economic freedom than China.
http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx
Just because China's rapid 10% growth per annum doesn't mean that it has a capitalist system.
If you think China has a capitalist system, you haven't done business in China or know anyone else who has done business in China... lol. It is a highly politicized process, China does not let just anyone become a millionaire. You have to be fervently pro-Beijing for them to allow you to monopolize an industry lol.
whatever the case, it is working for China. China will do it the Chinese way with an open mind.
QUOTE(SoCal @ Jan 12 2009, 04:46 PM) [snapback]4082488[/snapback]
http://www.dfat.gov.au/GEO/fs/
2008 GDP Per Capita
Singapore: $41,291
Macau: $39,823
Japan: $37,940
Hong Kong: $31,849
South Korea: $19,638
North Korea: Not Applicable, No Data
Taiwan: $18,306
China: $3,180
Mongolia: $1,880
Vietnam: $1,047
2008 GDP Per Capita
Singapore: $41,291
Macau: $39,823
Japan: $37,940
Hong Kong: $31,849
South Korea: $19,638
North Korea: Not Applicable, No Data
Taiwan: $18,306
China: $3,180
Mongolia: $1,880
Vietnam: $1,047
Socal, We are not a confucianist state......didnt know much about it except it was some chinese belief or whatever....anyways....Mongolia has no confucianist influence!!!
cheers
This topic crack me up
So what about all other non Confucian nations have higher GDP per capita than these on the list?
So what about all other non Confucian nations have higher GDP per capita than these on the list?
South Korea is no longer a "Confucianist" nation.
It was in the past but no longer is.
The majority of its population are Christian -- it's Christian population has already crossed the 50-percent threshold. For all intents and purposes, South Korea is a Christian nation.
South Korea is not only a Christian nation, it is an Evangelist nation. Evangelists are the worst sort of Christians (or one of the worst.) That is why South Koreans have become increasingly aggressive and belligerent in the recent years.
For whatever reason, Christians have always been combative bullies. It's just their nature to feel entitled and holier-than-thou, and to not practice what they preach. South Korea's transition into a Christian nation has made South Koreans into a a very difficult, territorial people.
It was in the past but no longer is.
The majority of its population are Christian -- it's Christian population has already crossed the 50-percent threshold. For all intents and purposes, South Korea is a Christian nation.
South Korea is not only a Christian nation, it is an Evangelist nation. Evangelists are the worst sort of Christians (or one of the worst.) That is why South Koreans have become increasingly aggressive and belligerent in the recent years.
For whatever reason, Christians have always been combative bullies. It's just their nature to feel entitled and holier-than-thou, and to not practice what they preach. South Korea's transition into a Christian nation has made South Koreans into a a very difficult, territorial people.
QUOTE(ktchong @ Jan 20 2009, 09:52 PM) [snapback]4094141[/snapback]
South Korea is no longer a "Confucianist" nation.
It was in the past but no longer is.
The majority of its population are Christian -- it's Christian population has already crossed the 50-percent threshold. For all intents and purposes, South Korea is a Christian nation.
South Korea is not only a Christian nation, it is an Evangelist nation. Evangelists are the worst sort of Christians (or one of the worst.) That is why South Koreans have become increasingly aggressive and belligerent in the recent years.
For whatever reason, Christians have always been combative bullies. It's just their nature to feel entitled and holier-than-thou, and to not practice what they preach. South Korea's transition into a Christian nation has made South Koreans into a a very difficult, territorial people.
It was in the past but no longer is.
The majority of its population are Christian -- it's Christian population has already crossed the 50-percent threshold. For all intents and purposes, South Korea is a Christian nation.
South Korea is not only a Christian nation, it is an Evangelist nation. Evangelists are the worst sort of Christians (or one of the worst.) That is why South Koreans have become increasingly aggressive and belligerent in the recent years.
For whatever reason, Christians have always been combative bullies. It's just their nature to feel entitled and holier-than-thou, and to not practice what they preach. South Korea's transition into a Christian nation has made South Koreans into a a very difficult, territorial people.
Confucianism is not a religion. It's a way of life.
Believe me, Koreans are very confucianist, whether theyre christian, buddist, or other.
isn't ancestor worship a part of confuscianist tradition? if so then it contradicts some christian um.. rules
most koreans do that, only the very conservative ones refuse to bow to the graves and images of ancestors/kin.
Socal,
Let me contribute the statistics of Shanghai and Guangdong to your project.
Shanghai
Population (2007)
- Municipality 18,580,000
- Density 2,640.3/km2 (6,838.4/sq mi)
GDP 2007 estimate
- Total US$157.8 billion
- Per capita US$8,949
- Growth ▲ 13.3%
HDI (2005) 0.909 (2nd)
License plate prefixes 沪A, B, D, E, F,G
沪C (outer suburbs)
City flower Yulan magnolia
In 2007, Shanghai's nominal GDP posted a 13.3% growth to 1.2 trillion yuan.
Guangdong
Population (2005)
- Density 83,040,000 Locals
30,000,000 Migrants
113,040,000 Total (1st)
467 /km˛ (1,210 /sq mi) (7th)
GDP (2007)
- per capita CNY 3.07 trillion (1st)
CNY 32,713 (6th)
In 2007, Guangdong's primary, secondary, and tertiary industries were worth 174.62 billion yuan, 1.59 trillion yuan, and 1.3 trillion yuan respectively.[6] Its per capita GDP reached 32,713 yuan (about US$4,300).[7] Guangdong contributes approximately 12.5% of the total national economic output.[6]
Let me contribute the statistics of Shanghai and Guangdong to your project.
Shanghai
Population (2007)
- Municipality 18,580,000
- Density 2,640.3/km2 (6,838.4/sq mi)
GDP 2007 estimate
- Total US$157.8 billion
- Per capita US$8,949
- Growth ▲ 13.3%
HDI (2005) 0.909 (2nd)
License plate prefixes 沪A, B, D, E, F,G
沪C (outer suburbs)
City flower Yulan magnolia
In 2007, Shanghai's nominal GDP posted a 13.3% growth to 1.2 trillion yuan.
Guangdong
Population (2005)
- Density 83,040,000 Locals
30,000,000 Migrants
113,040,000 Total (1st)
467 /km˛ (1,210 /sq mi) (7th)
GDP (2007)
- per capita CNY 3.07 trillion (1st)
CNY 32,713 (6th)
In 2007, Guangdong's primary, secondary, and tertiary industries were worth 174.62 billion yuan, 1.59 trillion yuan, and 1.3 trillion yuan respectively.[6] Its per capita GDP reached 32,713 yuan (about US$4,300).[7] Guangdong contributes approximately 12.5% of the total national economic output.[6]
QUOTE(CJK @ Jan 21 2009, 12:05 AM) [snapback]4094388[/snapback]
most koreans do that, only the very conservative ones refuse to bow to the graves and images of ancestors/kin.
http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/korea/history.htm
Information provided by the Korean Embassy
The Ko Choson
The people of Ko Choson or the oldest kingdom of Korea are recorded as Tong-i, "eastern bowmen" or "eastern barbarians." The propagated in Manchuria, the eastern littoral of China, areas north of the Yangtze River, and the Korean Peninsula. The eastern bowmen had a myth in which the legendary founder Tan-gun was born of a father of heavenly descent and a woman from a bear-totem tribe. He is said to have started to rule in 2333 B.C., and his descendants reigned in Choson, the "Land of Morning Calm," for more than a millennium.
When the Zhou people pushed the Yin, the eastern bowmen moved toward Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula for better climactic conditions. They seem to have maintained unity, as China's great sages, Confucious and Mencius, praised their consangquineous order and the decorum of their society.
The eastern bowmen on the western coast of the Yellow Sea clashed with the Zhou people during China's period of warring states (475 B.C. - 221 B.C.). This led them to move toward southern Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula.
There were other tribes of eastern bowmen, the Yemaek on the Manchurian area and the Han on the Korean Peninsula, all of whom belonged to the Tungusic family and linguistically affiliated with the Altaic. When Yin collapsed, Kija, a subject of the Yin state, entered Tan-gun's domain and introduced the culture of Yin around the 11th century B.C.
Then came invasion of Yen in the northeastern sector of China, and Ko Choson lost the territories west of the Liao River in the third century B.C. By this time, iron culture was developing and the warring states pushed the refugees eastward.
Among the immigrants, Wiman entered the service of Ko Choson as military commander with a base on the Amnokkang (Yalu) river. He drove King Chun to the south and usurped power. But in 109 B.C. the Han emperor Wu-ti dispatched a massive invasion by land and sea to Ko Choson in the estuary of the Liao River. Ko Choson was defeated after two years and four Chinese provincial commands were set up in southern Manchuria and the northern part of the Korean Peninsula. Not long after the establishment of the four commanderies, however, the Korean attacks became fierce and the last of the commanderies, Lolang (Korean: Nangnang) was destroyed by Koguryo in 313.
QUOTE(beronis @ Jan 24 2009, 04:03 AM) [snapback]4099656[/snapback]
During the Choson Dynasty, the Yangban Aristocracy adopted Zhu Xi's Neo-Confucianism as official State Ideology. That period was something of a golden age in Korean History. It lasted some 600 years.
QUOTE(beronis @ Jan 24 2009, 01:52 AM) [snapback]4099646[/snapback]
Socal,
Let me contribute the statistics of Shanghai and Guangdong to your project.
Shanghai
Population (2007)
- Municipality 18,580,000
- Density 2,640.3/km2 (6,838.4/sq mi)
GDP 2007 estimate
- Total US$157.8 billion
- Per capita US$8,949
- Growth ▲ 13.3%
HDI (2005) 0.909 (2nd)
License plate prefixes 沪A, B, D, E, F,G
沪C (outer suburbs)
City flower Yulan magnolia
In 2007, Shanghai's nominal GDP posted a 13.3% growth to 1.2 trillion yuan.
Guangdong
Population (2005)
- Density 83,040,000 Locals
30,000,000 Migrants
113,040,000 Total (1st)
467 /km˛ (1,210 /sq mi) (7th)
GDP (2007)
- per capita CNY 3.07 trillion (1st)
CNY 32,713 (6th)
In 2007, Guangdong's primary, secondary, and tertiary industries were worth 174.62 billion yuan, 1.59 trillion yuan, and 1.3 trillion yuan respectively.[6] Its per capita GDP reached 32,713 yuan (about US$4,300).[7] Guangdong contributes approximately 12.5% of the total national economic output.[6]
Let me contribute the statistics of Shanghai and Guangdong to your project.
Shanghai
Population (2007)
- Municipality 18,580,000
- Density 2,640.3/km2 (6,838.4/sq mi)
GDP 2007 estimate
- Total US$157.8 billion
- Per capita US$8,949
- Growth ▲ 13.3%
HDI (2005) 0.909 (2nd)
License plate prefixes 沪A, B, D, E, F,G
沪C (outer suburbs)
City flower Yulan magnolia
In 2007, Shanghai's nominal GDP posted a 13.3% growth to 1.2 trillion yuan.
Guangdong
Population (2005)
- Density 83,040,000 Locals
30,000,000 Migrants
113,040,000 Total (1st)
467 /km˛ (1,210 /sq mi) (7th)
GDP (2007)
- per capita CNY 3.07 trillion (1st)
CNY 32,713 (6th)
In 2007, Guangdong's primary, secondary, and tertiary industries were worth 174.62 billion yuan, 1.59 trillion yuan, and 1.3 trillion yuan respectively.[6] Its per capita GDP reached 32,713 yuan (about US$4,300).[7] Guangdong contributes approximately 12.5% of the total national economic output.[6]
Thank you, beronis. We appreciate your contribution.
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