I read this in a book that featured an interview with a Singaporean hapa girl. She said that when she was in school, being half White meant increased "status", especially if one's father were White. I also read that Singaporean companies deliberately employ White people just for appearences (even if the White employee isn't fully qualified). I also read that Singaporeans tend to treat White people better than other Asians. Is this true?

Is there a high degree of "White worship" in Singapore?

as far as I can tell

no, we prefer black guys over whiteys

Isn't the saying... Once you've had black you never go back.

errrrr? or wasn't it once u go back, u never go black ???

cuz they aren't many maaaaaaaaaah!!
LOL!

That's true, mainly because of the many diseases one could contract

This is not what the ladies tell me .

I don't know, come on you're a girl, you tell me.

"Youths Would Rather Be White or Japanese : Singapore Identity Crisis?"

http://www.iht.com/articles/1999/12/20/sing.2.t.php

That is truly sad. Goes to show that flooding your country with foreign culture is soul-destroying and pure evil.

Singapore needs stronger ties with China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong/Macau.

Can anyone honestly say this is healthy? No matter what I have said nothing is as sick as denying who you are.

White models and culture needs to be stamped out all over the world.

agreed. its absolutely ridiculous to see white people on billboards all over asian countries. when asian faces are all over european countries then we can talk otherwise, tear that $hit down and ban their $hit.

ROFL Singapore actually had an identity? To me the only thing Singapore really has is its border.

Indeed wanting to be White or Japanese is worrisome, but god damn I would be a fu-king billionaire if I open a cosmetic surgeon office in Singapore!

you'd make a fortune if you robbed people, shot babies for $1,000, or whatever else which are the moral equivalents of facilitating race based cosmetic changes

meh... its no different from some of u asiatics or hispanis tryin to act n talk ghetto

i dig that singaporeans are not nationalistic like some of these PRC chinese folks, and most of these J-pop wannabees are juz affluent kids with way too much money on their hands to dye their hair and buy J-pop records. its betta than trying to imitate the Hongkee gangster triads for sure...

Actually both are horrible, I don't know which one is worse. One is soul-destroying and supporting the most evil force on the planet (multiracialism and European society) and the other kills you at age 20 (ghetto thug wannabes)



That's a false dichotomy. You can be nationalist without being hateful, you can be proud without being nationalist, and you can like other cultures without wanting to BE the other race. No one here wants to be a Hong Kong Triad dude for sure, at least I don't.

The article is troubling indeed and the older Chinese are right to be disturbed, imo.

Singaporean are really fu-ked up. I met a few of them, their chinese sound retarded, their english is worst then indian.

And they "think" they are better then all chinese, which piss me off because their city nation is economically at the mercy of surrounding major powers.

Your grammar is also worse than the average desi, come on, give us a break will ya? SG is a tiny place with a small population, surely we can't please everybody.

The Chinese in Singapore should just remember their roots. A little self-respect and dignity never hurt anyone.. LKY and the first generation of Singaporean Chinese were all like that.

Not the ones in this forum. Often their sense of nationalism blinds them to rational thought.

I wouldn't assume that this report is troubling. Every person, goes through the process of finding themselves and this often involves trying other things. Every generation has done this, and the wealthier a nation the more extreme the experimentation tends to be. Who would have thought in the 60's and 70's that the hippie generation would one day run the world. Generation X will soon take over then it will be generation Y. With every generation that comes through, the preceeding generation alwys has something to complain about simply becasue they are different from their generation, forgetting that they themselves were different from their parents generation, with their parents complaining about exactly the same thing.

I don't think that Singaporean Chinese need to remember their "roots" either. First and foremost they are Singaporeans, their "roots" lie in Singapore. The fact that they are Chinese, Indian or Malay, is incidental and secondary. Their loyalty must always be with their nationality. Are people American Chinese or Chinese American. If China and America went to war, where would their loyalties lie, if its with China, then I would say they are living in the wrong country.

You defend the "lofty" ideals of nationalism but think you should have blind loyalty to your country even if it's clearly in the wrong?

Of course you should only fight for whoever is on the defensive.

Singapore was founded, built, and developed by Chinese Singaporeans. Not Japanese or Caucasians.

No what I said was country should come before race and that your nationalistic pride should not blind your sense of judgement. When it comes to your country you accept the good with the bad, that your country will not always be right and you will not agree with all the decisions that are made. However you accept those decisions whatever they may be. If you want to influence their decisions or show your disatisfaction at these decisions there are appropriate ways to do it. However if your loyalties lie with your race or another country, then you are being a hypocrite if you continue to enjoy the benefits of your resided country while showing loyalty to another country.

I see so many forumers here who live in America and I assume are either PRs or citizens who show more loyalty to China then to the US. They blindly defend China regardless of the circumstances.

I defend what I think is right, nothing else.

Go back and read your history, Singapore was "founded" by Sir Stamford Raffles, whom you may be surprised to know was English. When the English first occupied Singapore there was nothing there besides some fishing villages. The port ,the city, the govnt, the education system etc etc was all set up by the British, which gave Singapore a very good start at the time of independence. Yes, I agree that since independence Singapore has come along way, but is it becasue of the efforts of the majority Chinese or the effors of ALL Singaporeans regardless of race? More importantly what has China done to help the Chinese in Singapore? Nothing. What they have done is royally screw the Singapore govnt in the development of the Industrial estate, I forget in which Chinese city, either Shuzhou or Guangzhou or some other city. And then they have the nerve to "give" LKY a house as a token of their appreciation. For what, for screwing him and his govnt?

Singaporeans are Singaporeans, their "roots" as you call them are in Singapore, not China. If they get into trouble overseas, they will wave their Singapore passport, not their Chinese one. Tell me which passport will you wave?

But how is this even relevant to the article? Singapore is not a Japanese or Caucasian nation. Or are you saying Singapore and China have conflicting interests? Supporting Chinese culture and being proud of being part of a Chinese ethnic group does not mean supporting the PRC.



Everywhere Chinese people go, wealth builds. Except in Communist countries, and Communism is a Western idea. The British have always been worthless parasites wherever they go, taking more than they deserve. Look at what they did with India.



It's like 90% from the Chinese Singaporeans.



Except Singaporeans don't even have Chinese passports so I don't know what you're blathering about. Right now China and America don't really have any REAL conflicting interests, except America's desire to maintain global white hegemony which I strongly oppose as both a human being and as a non-white person.

Dignity > your suggested State Worship

Actually this generation of leaders (Lee Kuan Yew, Goh Keng Swee, DP Rajaratnam etc) were not the type of Chinese you envisage, they did not feel any sense of loyalty to China. They went to schools in England and were pretty anglocized in the manner they organised their thoughts, speech, planning and execution of policies and plans. IF they had been the sort of Chinese u envisaged, the country would have been screwed up i believe.

There are some disciplines which I believe Chinese folks from PRC haven't got within their mettle.

Our first cabinet threw out all technical reports written by World Bank experts on how to organise the state, and listened only to one piece of advice from a famous Dutch expert ... what advice was that???

Do not topple the statue of Sir Stamford Raffles which stands in front of Parliament House from the British colonial days to this day..

There is a big lesson in this gem of advice : Do not let excuses about past colonialization cloud your judgment about where the money and technology lay. I live in Africa and see so many elitist bemoan the past colonialization of their country, that is such weak bull$hit excuse to cover up their total incompetence and gross mismanagement.

There is nothing to attribute to China for Singapore's success today.

Singaporeans built their own state with everyone's input, Malays, Chinese, Indians and foreigners included.

If anything the identity of Chinese Singaporeans these days are more like Straits Chinese Peranakans.

The last serial drama that won the highest viewership in Singapore lately was titled "The Little Nonya" - a mandarin speaking drama about a Peranakan family history from the colonial days right up to modern times, that caught the attention of more Singaporeans (including Malays and Indians) than any of those Hongkee, Japanese, Korean and PRC serial dramas, ever.

Dig it now??

China doesn't use "excuses" of past colonization. They will complain but it doesn't impede in their government policy; not since Mao died at least. You don't get my point and are being defensive.

LKY specifically stated that different races had different levels of intelligence (on average) and differing work ethic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDQByx392lg (be sure to mute it after Clinton's done talking)

I don't care about the CCP or the PRC, but just the Chinese people and the East Asian race in general. It's their intelligence and hard work that made Singapore a developed country as was done in Hong Kong and Taiwan. Nothing else.

You can ask LKY himself. Wanting to be "Caucasian" is truly a sign of mental illness.

"One is the product of a civilization which has gone through all its ups and downs, of floods and famine and pestilence, breeding a people with very intense culture, with a belief in high performance, in sustained effort, in thrift and industry."

You think these are the words of a man who has no regard for China? I don't mean the PRC btw.. but China the civilization and people.

Neither is Singapore a Chinese nation. 25% of Singaporeans are not Chinese this is too large a population to simply call Singapore a Chinese country, this is not taking into account the 1 million foreigners who are present in Singapore either as tourists or foreign workers at any one time. I also don't understand what common/conflicting interests have to do with anything. Weather somone is proud or not of their ethnicity, what business is it of other people. So what if an individual prefers Western or Japanese culture, even if they want to be White or Japanese, what business is it of anybody else. As long as someone is confident of the individual that they are, be it white, black, blue, who gives a $hit about anything else, and who gives someone else a right to criticise them. And let me reiterate, the so called "Chinese Culture" in Singapore is not the same as the "Chinese" Culture in China or anywhere else in the world. Cultures evole over time, as the culture in Singapore will,and it will be Singapore Culture.

Furthermore, like I have said previously, young people often go through a period of finding themselves and questioning thier identity, I would be surprised if you didn't. If young Singaporeans would prefer to be "White" or "Japanese", weather it is a phase or not, who cares, shouldn't it be their personal choice.


Yes and everywhere Chinese people go they have also brought a sense of selfishness and a love of money unseen in any other race. So what if Communism is a Western idea, communism is practiced as much in Asia as anywhere else in the world. Democracy is also a Western idea, so what have you got to say about that? Blame the West for the faults of the East, what about giving the West the credit for the successes of the East as well? I agree that the British did terrible things but don't all conquerors? What about Emperor Qin? Was he a "nice guy" to the lands the conquered?


How the hell do you know this, you are such an arrogant Chinese, reading what you have to say I'm embarassed to be Chinese.


I'm making the point that Singaporean Chinese are Singaporean first, same as American Chinese are Americans first. Those who have a stronger loyalty to China either in Singapore or the US, really should go back to China. Then I think you will truly appreciate how lucky you are. You are crazy if you think the US wants to maintain "white hegemony". The US wants to maintain, its position at the top of the totem pole, with China wanting take over that position. The fact that one country is "white" and the other "yellow" is incidental. If you oppose the US then you should also oppose China. Between the US and China I know who I would prefer to be top dog.

And your last sentence in incomplete, it should be

Dignity>State>Race.

wanting to be "caucasian" is a sign of mental illness, wanting to be the "china man" isn't a sign as well?

u are american right?

all said, it's true we can't erase race from our socio-political make-up, in the decades following our independence, the PAP was concerned about the westernization or influences from J-pop/K-pop cultures, and campaigns such as the Speak Mandarin or Confucianism were conducted to keep in check these influences.. but truth be told, these western and pop influences came and stayed and have not gone away.. and now we see the rise of asian-pop influences from Japan and Korea... and also China as it exports its pop cultures more and more.. Furthermore, guess what our mentor minister admitted?? that his government now regrets its earlier decisions not to allow Singapore to plug into pop culture or F1 racing. see? even the old man thinks there's something of value in pop-culture now! cuz there's big money and sponsorships!

there is something like software and hardware needed in running a successful state.. Hongkong has been immensely successful because the Brits built the right hardware needed for the operation of a financial hub. Macau didn't make it under the Portuguese. Taiwan's success had alot to do with its connections to America... the Chiang family were heavily supported by the Americas.

In fact, since u are such a fan of LKY, u must have known that it was his meeting with Deng Xiaoping which convinced Deng that autarky in China isn't going to pull millions of its chinese out of destitution... but rather the opening up and freeing up of its socialist economic policies that convinced the old revolutionary to liberate the coastal cities to foreign direct investments right??

we see a new influence arising from China these days, with the rising affluence and immigration of their peoples to their shores.. we have FOBs in Singapore now too... we see them not just as lay laborers in the hawkers or wives of our senior citizens but all the way to our R&D departments, government clinics and hospitals, there are increasingly China migrants manning the desks...

there is a reaction against identifying ourselves as PRC chinese..., i can vouch for that myself. Why? Cuz PRC chinese folks have an issue with their self-esteem too, quite a number of them do not particularly like overseas Chinese like Singaporeans or those in Taiwan for instance. They are mired in their histories of struggle against humiliation that it's hard for them not to consider us as 'betrayers' or 'freeloaders' of western lollipops

as a Singaporean, I enjoy the ancient chinese histories when depicted by Zhang Yimou and John Woo in their arty or action flicks, and Singaporean Chinese can feel a swelling pride seeing China stood up again on its feet during the Olympics... but that's about it... in socio-political realm, we are separate identities.. the founding fathers like LKY ensured we belonged to the Non-Aligned Movement.. this philosophy is still not dead yet..

Singapore should remain neutral and non-aligned in the face of rising competition between China and America. we may have a majority of the chinese race, but that don't mean we are some kinda satellite of the People's Republic of China.

America's and other countries' continued involvement in our socio-political makeup and economy are just as strong if not important to the genetic soup that is in Singapore's petri dish.

do i make more sense to u now?

u have a tendency to mix race with politics and i find that rather dangerous... i can't stand ethno-nationalism of any sort. i dont mind nationalistic sentiments if they were not based on ethnic/race alone, but living in Africa where tribal nationalism (aka ethno-nationalism) is rampant and rife, I don't advocate that for any developing or developed nations to go down that silly route in the discussions of their mental make-up or national identity.

We're really getting off topic. This never had anything to do with loyalty to ones nation over another or anything of that sort. It had nothing to do with the PRC or ROC either. The PRC is completely un-Chinese in many ways and must change itself.

All I'm saying is everyone should be proud of who they are. Are you saying Singaporean Chinese are not allowed to be proud of their heritage? That they should forget who they are for the sake of others?

What are you even saying? That Chinese Singaporeans should adopt foreign behavior because you have somehow dictated that Singapore is a multicultural foreigner nation? Singapore is a majority Chinese nation, I don't know what else to say. "Chinese" does not mean communist or capitalist or authoritarian.



If someone wishes they were something else, they by definition are not proud of what they are. It's destructive to the individual's sense of self worth and meaning. How can you wish this on anyone?



Yeah, such good it's done for any of the "Asian tigers" or China. Almost all of them have been authoritarian for much of the modern era and even when they were democratic the opposition parties led the nation for maybe 1-2 terms each.



Don't be so naive. The only thing that matters is the sum or balance of what that influence has accomplished. It's definitely negative.



Your self-defeating and self-hating attitudes are disturbing. Just going by demographic data you can get a good estimate.



You're confusing the state with the culture. And of COURSE America wants to maintain religious/racial hegemony- look at how they operate in the international stage and pick up a history book or two. Between the US and China you would prefer US leadership? I take it you're not a Muslim and that you're enjoying this current 2008 Anglo-American Financial Crisis.



Please tell me again how Singaporean and Chinese interests conflict, and how American and Chinese interests *really* conflict aside from America wanting some non-Christian/non-white nation to demonize and scapegoat to distract from their internal problems and extort congress for more defense money?

@tangawizi

no, wanting to be a different race is a mental illness. Singaporean Chinese are still Chinese, correct? Or did they get some kind of reverse Michael Jackson operation along with lots of brainwashing? They can't change what they are. Only face the facts, accept what they were born as and move on.



He did this by showing that Singapore was more Chinese than the PRC; Communism is extremely un-Chinese.



It's overstated. The main thing America did for Taiwan was keep the CCP at bay. But they could have done that 5 years earlier and we'd still have the mainland. Instead the aid they gave to the ROC during the second world war wasn't even 5% of what they gave Europe. What they did send over was of low quality. Even after the war they misled the ROC and gave the CCP time to take the Northeast and descend on the rest of the nation with Soviet aid.



Again, I didn't mention the PRC. I support Chinese people all around the world, be they Singaporean, Taiwanese, Americans, Canadians, Australians, EU, Hong Kong or PRC citizens. Before swingdoctor jumps up and down and whines about this I'm going to remind everyone that our goals as a race (self-improvement) do not conflict with anyone else's. However America wants the whole world's natural resources, so there's nothing anyone can do about that.

But the PRC is Chinese. When u refer to ethnic based identity, to be a chinese is to belong to the People's Republic of Chiina... that's understood not only by the chinese, but also the Malays and Indonesian ethnics who are leery and wary of their chinese citizens being prone to that kinda ethno-nationalistic sentiments.

Why is it important for Singapore Chinese not to proclaim their ethno-nationalistic sentiments even if they harbour it??? Because we are in the Malayan Straits. It's not particularly CLEVER to stand out and say we are of a Chinese race.

Let me put this to you in the American context... LKY has criticised America like this:

In America itself, after 30 years of experimenting with the Great Society programmes, there is widespread crime and violence, children kill each other with guns, neigbourhoods are insecure, old people feel forgotten, families are falling apart. And the media attacks the integrity and character of your leaders with impunity, drags down all those in authority and blames everyone but itself. (Lee Kuan Yew, Sept 1995)

I don't like how LKY always presumes he is right on everything. He doesn't realise how things run on the ground and he's always railing on other people's culture (Philippines, Malaysia, America etc..). America is but a giant mix of various sub-cultures that tended to this weird, slightly bland middle ground because the varying cultures were at odds with each other. Immigrants' kids get "Americanized", and the parents+family feel helpless because their cultural values are no longer contextually compatible; I think this is what fuels all this "there's no family values" hatin' from LKY. He thinks American culture or Western culture on individualism doesn't promote family values (but he lauds their pop-culture for rakin' in the millions in revenue! ironical innit?). And if we know China's communist culture these days, it's also producing broken families, high rates of divorce etc.. as well.

Ok, so u highlighted that Lee showed Deng how communism wasn't reflecting the true Chinese culture. So did Deng really went back and opened up the pandora box of allowing true Chinese culture to flourish??? no, he didn't have to...Deng's communism was communism with chinese characteristics. China's communism is a continuation of the milleniums of Chinese political culture of control and central command.

P/s - on Taiwan u have to understand that its IT and semi-conductor industry wouldn't have taken off if it weren't for America's influence and support in that island's economy.. not to mention the military umbrella it enjoys under the US

Don't let swingdoc take u on a rhetorical wild goose chase, he's abit wordy sometimes (no offense doc! ) ... juz stick to the incisive issues.

That's not true. I consider myself Chinese and I am descended from Taiwanese. My parents are Taiwanese but they consider themselves culturally Chinese. Hong Kongers are also "Chinese". swingdoctor likes to talk about "fluidity" of culture, that is what I'm trying to express. Being Chinese doesn't mean being contemptuous or selfish or anti-American; that's simply swingdoctor's definition of "Chinese".



But does it make the neighbors feel more secure if they want to pretend they are "Caucasians" or Japanese? If they are offended by something as non-threatening as speaking a Chinese dialect then they have serious issues.



Well, ghetto and gangsta culture -is- American culture. Wouldn't you be worried too? It's an awful thing to be sucked up in. The reason why people are worried about Americanization is because America is extremely anti-intellectual and consumerist. swingdoctor accuses all Chinese people of being materialistic (clearly a sign of internalized Malay/American anti-Chinese rhetoric) which is ridiculous considering their saving habits.



But if America didn't screw up and actually helped the ROC (Taiwan) when it mattered (WW2 and the Civil War), the entire Mainland would be rich and the Cold War would have been over in a year. What they did for Taiwan now is just a consolation prize. But that's in the past.

I am not sure what u mean by that? Can u elaborate please? How does the PRC need to change its unchinese ways to become more chinese????



Which heritage? Their forefathers' PRC heritage which u now claim is un-chinese?

Or our Straits Malayan heritage? The history of maritime states and empires in Indo-Malayan archipelago??



Most PRC chinese think Singaporean Chinese act like foreigners (lao wais). Singaporean Chinese think PRC chinese act foreign as well (PRC). How do u think Singaporean Chinese should modify their behaviors to adopt Chinese behavior???

If "Chinese" does not equate to communist or capitalist or authoritarian? What does "Chinese" equate to? I am really interested to hear your views...




If a Singaporean wishes to be just a Singaporean, is that destructive to their self-worth and esteem?? Like putting country above ethno-sentiments. We support this line of behavior because of what we see in malaysia, how ethnic based politics and ethno-nationalism is sabotaging that country's development. Indonesians have also learnt this lesson and have ingested Unity in Diversity into their political transformation.

I want to note that the first set was a reply to swingdoctor's posts.



They've lost touch with a lot of the moralistic teachings of old. Some aspects of Confucianism are not necessarily entirely attuned to the modern world, but they're leaving behind very good things about Chinese culture. Right now they have turned around and claimed to be standing up for the old ways but it's half-hearted at best.



There's a whole history of events starting from 2,000 BC on either side of the Huai. The PRC is a relative latecomer, unless you are using PRC interchangeably with everything related to the landmass they cover now.



It's basically a set of customs but more importantly a sense of belonging and purpose. There are a lot of ways to go about doing it, the one thing that doesn't qualify is wishing you were another ethnicity, I'd say.




Nationhood and ethnic sentiments are both really loosely defined concepts I'd say. Blind nationalism is destructive as well. The main thing Malaysia did was put forward illogical laws based on 18th century racial ideology. If they wanted to do that properly they should have used the most up to date information. But as to Singaporeans just being Singaporean, how do you define Singaporean? It seems like 50% of the students interviewed wished to be Chinese while 20% wished to be a Shopping Mall/Trendy culture of fads and pop stars who dump and pick up new ethnic identities at will. The same can be said of many "modernized/globalized" nations. Is the 75% Chinese demographic not enough to give Singaporean Chinese-ness a significant stake in the local culture?

Ok..so American culture is 'ghetto' culture. Would u post that as a new thread on the Debate Chat and let's see how the rest of the biased religious ABCs react on this opinion?

So u consider yourself as Chinese first? Or American first?

Most of my frens consider ourselves as Singaporeans first. The older generations may not consider this subtle difference, they'd probably ask what dialect group are you? But most of my frens do not see race as such an important definition of the self. And yes, its true that amongst my cohorts, there were plenty of "wannabees". White, black, Japanese, korean wannabees.. u name it, we've got it. I was a Goth-wannabee.

Anyways, isn't that part of growing up to become a self-assured person? I mean, does it matter that we go thru phases of who we are? Plenty of these kids who wish to be caucasian or japanese will eventually settle down to a family and then find that their emo haircuts and g-strings calvin klein underpants too damn dorky

What is the Singaporean? I am a Singaporean, I am keen on learning about the heritages of the maritime empires around my island state. I am hardly in SG chat, i hang around the US dominated Debate chat, Msian and Indochats much more due to the size and interests of their participants in cultural issues. SG chat hardly has any visitors, suppose it's due to demographics.. ? I blog n chat regularly with my folks n mates who are studying or working around the world. My social consciousness not only extends to HK or Taiwan chinese or J or K-pop variety, but also the western world at large as well as world music. (We have WOMAD in Singapore regularly). Our cultural theatre scene regularly has all ethnic shows from western ballet to balinese dances, I enjoy talking to frens from malay, chinese n indian ethnic backgrounds about their childhood memories of wayang, gamelan and other straits malayan customs, food and social activities. I can vouch most sg folks end up not knowing much of these heritages but these linkages to the past exist in our homes,, daily customs, rituals and cuisines... its vibrant n alive!! We have chinese customs or malay patois or indian influences in our everyday lives, and yes, even new trends like the baptist evangelicals influencing the way people in sg now worship n pray..

Our mental state reflects the open and vibrant island mentality we have... we are tuned into everything that is a fad around the world, from Jay Chou-Paris Hilton from stem-cell research to malaria research... from north-south, east-west.

The recent years of intense interaction with foreign migrants have forged a sense of who we are. Maybe its still a sense of je ne sais quoi when we try to compare with great world cities like Beijing, New York, Tokyo, London... but when we compare with Jakarta, KL, Bangkok, Manila....Nairobi, we are distinctly SingaporeaN, there is no doubt abt it.

I consider myself a good person first. Morality, right and wrong supercede all other considerations. I will side with whichever country depending on the situation. But culturally? I consider myself Chinese. Mostly Taiwanese, then South Chinese, then Chinese.



Well, anyone can be a Goth



Yeah but sometimes a few of them will need guidance. I don't mean to say that they should be sent to de-Japanizing camp or whatever.



First part sounds good.. be wary of the evangelicals though, lol. They put Bush in power. So if you see them again you should slap them and ask them why they are causing SG's economy to contract this year



I can see that, it makes sense.

i know




i met a PRC lady interpreter who said the same thing as u... but i asked her how can the the state of China maintained a han-centric type or moral structure when its renminbi depicts the minority ethnic groups who aren't from a han-centric culture???



Yes, PRC is a relative newcomer, but it didn't mean a discontinuation of the old chinese way of doing things, did it??

Did u read the Wolf Totem? The chinese author wants sheepish chinese peoples to admire the northern cousins and their nomadic individualistic streaks !




Most kids one way or the other, mimic pop-artistes... just because SG kids chose to emulate Justin Timberlake instead of Jay Chou don't mean he's selling out his entire being. Plus....

Most chinese in China probably wished they were American, juz so they can get a better headstart in life, ya know?





Please list the host of recent information that Msian ethnic-nationalist malays can use to back up their politics?? thanks

Trendy culture of fads and pop are just what they are : transcient. The underlying culture is still there, but its dynamic, not static. The chinese demographic is not designed to give Singaporean an edge by being more Chinese than ever, its designed to make us understand that we need to be mindful of our place and not be too arrogant in our chinese-ness!

Yeah but what Mahatir calls arrogance is just an excuse for his stupidity and the failures of Malaysia. China doesn't have to be Han centric. There is always a place for the other cultures in their homelands. We can have our culture and they can have theirs, and we can cooperate on a lot of things.

yhellotar, just calm down.

go mow my lawn

Ha ha, I think your dream of the ideal Chinese has come from a some ancient Chinese romatic novel. Pray tell, what sort of Chinese the PRC should be. I'll say this to you, and I would like you to think about this. It is common for people who have migrated to idealise the land of their birth. Studies have also shown that migrants who leave their homeland will continue to practice culture and customs that were practiced in their homeland at the time of their leaving eventhough with time the culture/custom in their homeland has actually moved on. In essence they are "stuck in time". So it is therefore common for migrants to be more "traditional", then the people the left behind.


You see you still make the assumption that Singaporean Chinese still see an important part of themselves as being Chinese. Yes people should be proud of who they are and they find that by looking inward at themselves and not relying on people like you to tell them who they are.


Singaporean Chinese should be nothing more then who they are, but you shouldn't be defining who they should be. So what if Singapore is a majority Chinese nation, does it mean that the Chinese are insular in the way they live. Are you insular in the way you live? Do you not practice any culture that did not originate from the East? I'm fairly certain you do. Do you have Western friends? Do you take thanksgiving as a holiday? Do you exchange presents on Christmas day? Do you buy flowers for your GF on Valentines day? Do you eat pasta/pizza? If you do any of these things then you are not being completely Chinese either, does it mean that you are not proud of your Chinese heritage? I highly doubt so. Just as nobody should tell you how you should live your life, who you should be etc. neither is it your place to decide for people what they should be proud of. WRT Singapore's youth, let them decide for themselves who they are, it is their parents responsibility to guide and help them discover who they are and its not for anybody else to criticise.



And how is authoritarian the fault of democracy. Remember democracy is removing autoritarian rule. China is and came from autoritarian rule. The wealth and prosperity the who world enjoys, has partly been contributed to by the West. Why don't you ark your parents why they left their home and the conditions there before they left.


Interesing answer coming from someone who lives in the West. I'm assuming then you are either weak willed or a hypocrite because either you see the negative influence in the West but either can't bring yourself to move somewhere else or despite the negative that you see you still want to enjoy the benefits that it brings.

Bull$hit, you can't assume anything, the demographic data proves NOTHING. And I'll tell you somthing as well. I know who I am and I'm proud of who I am. I am who I am because of the influence of my parents and the other people around me. I am also greatful to my parents for what they have done.


Fine if you disagree with what the US has done there are ways to vent your anger. Would you have the same oppertunities in China? Forget Tianamen Square? Forget what is happening in Tibet. And we'll see what happens in Taiwan won't we. The grass is always greener on the other side isn't it.


Singapore interests and Chinese interests are not the same, they don't necessarily conflict, they are just not the same.
Yu really are a conspiracy theorist aren't you.

My ideals are based on common sense in the face of the modernization. That, and humanitarianism. The only rule is not to wish you're someone else, but then again you probably think that's "racist".



Read the article. 95% of the Chinese Singaporeans who built the nation said they "wished to remain Chinese"



Yes, no, no, no, and pasta is Chinese. As for pizza, haven't had it for a few years now but it's good. That's not the point. Food and holidays is not all of culture; that's the fatal flaw of Western multicultural thinking. I can see you've been fully indoctrinated. I guess your idea of how multiculturalism works is as follows: two or more groups of people who hate each other are put in the same place, and they will magically get along. They will hold hands, share food and celebrate each other's holidays while singing kumbaya!

Do you even know anything about geopolitics, behavioral science, genetics, history or economics?



Sorry, but I'm with their parents on this one. Do you think you have more authority?



Uh what are you even saying? I said democracy is a failure. Your ideals of democracy are not realistic, it's very naive. Read some history.



Sorry I was born in a fairly well-off family, I'm not dependent on America unlike many immigrants.



So you think even though the population was 77% Chinese and 14% Malays, and even though Malay per capita production was about half of that of Chinese, that Malays contributed to 33% of Singapore's success?

What a joke.



Forget Tiananmen? No, but Tianenmen killed 1/100th as many people as the War in Iraq did. What's "happening in Tibet"? You don't even know what's happening in Tibet except from your anti-Chinese propaganda agencies. Taiwan? Taiwan is at no real risk of being taken over. It would just be stupid for China to try that. If you're going to try to make a case against China, at least stop listening to propaganda and actually mention important things like saving the Manchu language or fixing up the environment.



What does "conspiracy theory" have to do with anything? As for your comment on how Singapore and China's interests "are just not the same", I'll explain it to you. China, to Singapore, is essentially a giant export cash cow. They have no conflicting territorial claims or anything. That's all there is to it, Singapore has nothing to lose and everything to gain by maintaining its current trade relationship with China.

Lastly, if you don't think whites (just like most ethnic groups) do everything in their own interests you're simply ignorant or stupid. Everything "the West" did, they did for themselves and it came at a cost to everyone else. The reason why other "peoples" have access to this technology is because they sold their labor and natural resources to them for it, with which they in turn used to kill each other in Europe.

You are pathetic and deluded if you think we owe anything to "the West". If anything, they owe their existence to China for not appeasing the Mongols.

What commen sense or modernisation, your ideas are ancient. Again like I said young people go through a period of finding themselves, let them find themselves rsather then be so quick to criticise. And remember this is an article that is 10 years old, or did you not notice that? Let them find who they truly are rather thn you dictating to them who they should be.


So? This is the older generation.


So the answer is yes, you have adopted at least some aspects of Western culture. Good for you. Who decided for you how much or which aspects of Western culture to adopt? And who are you to decide for other people how much of other cultures to adopt? Who died and made you God? You're a pompous @$$.

Where have I said that multiculturalism is as simple as putting 2 different people together? But if you want to enter a country where there is a significant proportion of another race, then you should expect that your way of life will change as you will change the way of life of others. Go ahead, why don't you continue to live your insular life as a migrant, complain about how things were better back home and complain about how terrible the new culture is. I have only one thing to say to people like you. GO HOME.

I certainly can add better then you can... (see below)


How do you know what their parents think? All the article said is that 95% of the parents want to remain Chinese, it did not mention anything about what they want for their children.

So, tell me whats better, or are you the type of person who is happy to criticise but can't offer any solution? Is democracy worse then communism? What about a monarchy? Democracy is not berfect, but if you think its "a failure" then tell me what you think is better?


So you look down on immigrants who are dependent on America? Don't we learn more and more about who you are.

So let me ask you, how did your family get well off? Wasn't it because of the conditions in the US? You really think you live insularly? You don't think that even as you post, you are enjoying the fredooms that are granted to you by the US. You are so ungreatful. Have you even been to China to know whats it like there? Have you been to Singapore?


You see, you are of the opinion that the more successful you are the more you contribute to a society. Everybody contributed to the building of Singapore and its IMPOSSIBLE to partition benefits to any one racial group. You really think deep down that we, the Chinese are better then other races don't you. No one other people hate us so much.

I see that maths isn't one of your strong points, doesn't give me much confidence in you grasp of "geopolitics, behavioral science, genetics, history or economics"


Really and the Communists were "nice" to the Nationalists? And don't forget if it wasn't for the West, China would still be under Japanese rule, or worse still China would be part of Japan. The irony is that if it wasn't for the West, the communists would never have taken control of China.

And I don't understnad what you mean in the bold lettering. I have said that what the West has done is only for their own benefit. Your response here does not make sense, I'm not sure if you agree with me or not. But remember china is no different, you are ignorant if you think that china does things for anyone other then herself.

And let me ask you, if things really are good in Tibet, why does the Chinese govnt still ban tourists from going anywhere in Tibet. Why are there Tibetians outside China still asking for independence? I think you are the one who has been brain washed by Chinese media.

I think we all know your stance quite clearly Doc, that as an overseas Chinese, we shouldn't harbour such overly sentimental notions about our mother-land, China because if we did that, we'd be reviled by the countries we live in as third or fourth generation migrants. After all, China doesn't truly give a $hit about overseas chinese, they have problems of their own what with rural peasant migrant population and the Tibetan, Huis and Uighurs breakaway provinces etc...

But what Yellothar is trying to point out is that much as we do not wanna behave in the romantic way like our forefathers did, in wanting to be buried in old China when they die, we shouldn't let our young teenagers ape the western or j-pop fads to the extent that they self-loathe their chinese identity or race.

I just wanna conclude that in my own experience, we go through some kinda transformation during our teenaged years and this commonly includes wanting to be of another race or ethnic identity if we can help it by changing our dress, mannerisms, accent, hair color, plastic surgery etc etc... I even see that amongst black people here in eastern africa where they wanna look like anything but black and they speak with an accent that could have come out from the Bronx .. I am sure the same thing happens to migrant chinese to the States as well as they Americanize instead of clinging on to the chinese ways and mannerisms of their parents or gramps..

Is Americanizing oneself "faking" a self-identity? Some may say so. Others will say it's healthy nationalism, like i would. But to some like Yellothar, they prefer self-identity not to be based on a country but rather on ethnicity. Therefore, they promote ethno-nationalism which I find quite complicated and dangerous in developing countries that suffer huge income divide (like Indonesia, Rwanda, Kenya even...). It's okay though to speak of ethno-nationationalism in developed countries where income disparities aren't an issue. But it is a dangerous thing for most nations struggling with uneven resource distribution and a frail democracy... they invariably end up with a civil strife.

All that said, the only thing that keeps us from being "fake" all our lives is to cultivate a sense of our own destiny in the future and this can be done if u sought to learn about the past, where your immediate history came from, and where u are now heading.

Yellothar strikes me as someone who's at this stage, that's all.. we are all on this stage. It'll take a lifetime of learning about the past but it shapes our future. The China man is not the issue, dude.

YES.

Hmm..interesting debates...but actually I have a feeling it was an unintended debate which was not the original topic of discussion.

The original point was, that some teenagers have wished that they are something else, of another ethnicity.

Then someone said that this is pitiful and an irony, and they should take pride in their own heritage.

Somehow the topic became discussion about nation-state, politics, state of PRC, history of PRC, etc.....what is the relevance..???

Ive seen alot of cultural discussion involving overseas Chinese degenerate into this kind of political talk.

The original topic was about "cultural self-identification" or "ethnic self-identification" , it has nothing to do with nation-state or politics.

This thing and that thing are two different matters.

If you are Chinese, you are Chinese.

You cannot paint your skin or undergo plastic surgery like Michael Jackson.

You still celebrate Chinese New Year, and some other things.

This discussion should not have veered into a discussion of politics at all.

There is something called "cultural identity" , or "heritage", and this has nothing to do with politics. It has nothing to do with any governments anywhere in any countries in the world.

I must say though that reading some of the comments here, especially those by one particular swingdoctor is quite disappointing to me. He seems so eager to emphasize his separateness, uniqueness, and that he is no longer a "Chinaman". Reading these kinds of brainwashed, white-washed, self-hating, arrogant, Im-better-than-you attitude is really hard to stomach. He seems to take a particular joy in poking and rubbing in the weaknesses and faults of PRC.

I think "swingdoctors" are even worse than teenage Japanese wannabes in the survey.

Those teenagers are just going through a phase. If the survey had been conducted several years during the Korean Wave peak, I believe more of them would want to be Korean instead. However, this is just a teenage fad.

But people who have been thoroughly brainwashed into believing that they are "new Chinese" who are "sophisticated and multicultural" , "comfortable in embracing westernism", "no longer a Chinaman", and have that kind of "air" is truly sickening and shameful.

All the "swingdoctors" out there are suffering a far worse disease than teenage Japanese wannabes.

That is just my humble opinion.

From one overseas Chinese to another.

I hope as the teenagers grow older and shake off their fads, I hope all the swingdoctors out there can also shake off their fads, be a little more modest, and remember your roots.

I believe the same kind of situation exist in Hong Kong, which used to be under the "Ang Mo" ("White"/British) rule.

Thats bull$hit, you know nothing about me. I'm who I am and I'm proud of it, I don't wish to be any different. What I'm emphasizing here is that teenagers should be allowed to discover who they are for themselves and people be allowed to live the life of their choice without being criticised for it. Without people thousands of miles away who don't know them for jack, never visited their country and yet based on one article that is 10 years old feel that they know enough about them to criticise.

How long have you been here? You have 15 posts and you think you know me well enough to insult me like you have above. How many of my posts have you read? I have not forgotten my roots and I'm not embarassed to be Chinese, except when I read the posts of people here who are so bigoted, and who blame others for their own failings.

But let me introduce myself to you, so that at least if you choose to insult me the next time at least you can be informed when you do it and I won't mind it so much. I'm 1/2 Chinese and 1/2 Eurasian, I grew up in Malaysia and moved to Australia when I was 16. I am in the unique situation where I have been discriminated against for being Chinese and been discriminated by Chinese. I spent 4 weeks travelling through China and although I liked the country, the people not so much. I am greatful to Australia for giving me the oppertunities that no other country has given. It irritates me that people who are lucky and given oppertunities are not greatful to the country that gave them those oppertunities. Remember, every one of us, our forefathers left China, perhaps if they are still alive you should ask them why, or go visit China yourself and then maybe you'll know why. I hate cliques, and just because someone is Chinese, doesn't mean that they are my brother or my friend. I look at someone and what type of person they are before deciding if I want to get to know them, irrespective of their skin colour. I also dislike ungreatful people. Remember, in your adopted country, the country itself is saying that they are prepared to accept you and for you to join them, when they allowed you to become their citizens. When you then advocate an isolationist way of life you are saying to your adpoted country, I don't want to mix with you, which to me demonstrates ingratitude. I'm not saying that you should go out of your way to integrate or that you should not continue to practice your traditions. I still do, but you shouldn't go out of your way to purposely not integrate nor criticise others who do. To be honest if people feel that strongly about not integrating, they really should go back to China. I'm not suggesting that you have to accept everything that your country does, if you disagree with it, there are forums for you to express your opinion, but even if you lived in China or any other country you would still have to take the good with the bad. And if you have a specific criticism to make make it, rather then making general criticism of "the West" or of "whites". With specific regard to PRC, my opinion of it changes depending on what we are talking about, some things I feel they do well, some things they don't. But I don't think they are right or blindly defend them just because I am Chinese as I have seen other people do here.

To a large extent I agree with you. I personally feel growing up and finding yourself is difficult for most people, and other people shouldn't be making it more difficult. I've been around long enough (as I assume you have too) to know that you can't always trust so called studies. For instance in this study, we really don't know who conducted the study and under what parameters the study was conducted in. We both know that statistics can be manipulated and also that questions in a study can be framed to try to achieve a predetermined result. So whenever reading a "study", we need to know who did it and to some extent how it was done. You're Singaporean and a study from 10 years ago would be the youth of your generation wouldn't it. Tell us in your experience would you say that 25% of your friends wished they were either Caucasian or Japanese? I know many Sinaporeans in that age group and I can't think of 1 who would be someone other then who they are.

Too many problems in the world already stems from people wanting other people to behave in a particular way or people projecting their values on other people. As long as your values don't affect other people then you should be allowed to live your life whichever way you choose. The only crime is denying who you are on the inside not on the outside.

Thank you for providing a little explanation about your background.

I did not know you are of mixed-heritage.

First I want to apologize for being too serious, and even criticized you so strongly.

I have a feeling lots of things being said here is perhaps irrelevant, or that the people here actually have the same basic ideas, but differing in some degrees, and depending on wording or specific issues.

Thank you and best regards,

A system that is based in rule of law, a good society and focuses heavily on merit. It wouldn't be too different from a so-called "democracy" (Greece was a "democracy" even when only 5% of the population could vote) except no idiots are allowed to have any power whatsoever.



I don't care what people eat. As long as they don't want to be someone else. The only thing I agree with is that the study was done on young people and that they can change, but it's still disturbing. This isn't about "minding your own business". Self-hating and inferiority complexes are destructive. I know this because I've spent a lot of time around white washed "Asian" Americans who are always depressed and limiting themselves. Without confidence you are nothing.



Do I look down on immigrants who are dependent on America? No. You just can't extort me into bowing down to your pro-Western worship by trying to guilt me into ignoring their many sins.

For one, my great grandparents and grandparents were wealthy traders (late Qing era). My other set of grandparents own a lot of assets. All of this came through their hard work. To say I owe anything to America (I was born here) is ridiculous. I owe them nothing. My family pays so much taxes just to have it spent on welfare and social services checks for people that have no respect for us.



Now I know why you want to weaken our sense of identity and why you act so superior to people in China. You probably love the special treatment that you occasionally get for being "mixed" in that part of Asia, and have a vendetta against people who discriminated against you (as if it's half as bad as how much other races do).



And if Japan took China they would have taken Russia too. Then possibly Europe.



So? Does China take as much from the world as the West does? No.



Probably because they don't want more Free Tibet $hit-stirrers going there. They are letting in a small stream of reporters, btw. And it's "TIBETAN" there's only one fu-king I in the word. It's like you just added it to your vocabulary to bash China and don't know anything about the issue. Of course it's not perfect, but it's better than what's happened to American Indians and Australian Aborigines. The thing is, the "West" that you love and try to promote blindly (because you're part white) thinks they are holy and cannot make mistakes. It's ridiculous for them to criticize China for something they keep doing to this day (Iraq).

The Tibetans are just treated so much better than any other colonized people. Doesn't make it ok, but it also doesn't give a Westerner like you the moral high ground. Not even close.

LOL at Singaporeans. Wow, suffering from Michael Jackson syndrome or what? Way to be proud of your genetics there people