Ola, Salam, Shalom, Selamat Sejahtera, Kaba-kaba.

I'm doing a movie script for a low budget short film.

I know there r load of brilliant historians inside here.. I need your help. Please. Tolonglah daku.

I'll put your name in the credits, but seriously no payment - Low budget short film.http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_images/1/folder_post_icons/icon1.gif

I need to know:

1 - WHY THE KERIS/KRIS IS WAVY?

2 - WHO CREATED THAT WAVY DOUBLE SIDED WEAPON?


No racial issue please.

KERIS = Malay Privilage

Captain log: Sunday, March 1, 2009

I still know ziltch about the wavy thingy on Keris. Who da hell get that 'wavy weapon' idea?
But on da bright side, I found out how old keris is:

Sireq Galigo (La Galigo) manuscript.
One of the earliest (oldest) manuscript in old Asia.
In there is an info about Keris.
Sireq Galigo (La Galigo) is written before The Mahabratha.
Meaning the Keris existed way before Sriwijaya (Seri Vijaya) Kingdom.

---------------------------------

REFERENCE: 1) http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Galigo
La Galigo
Dari Wikipedia bahasa Indonesia, ensiklopedia bebas

La Galigo adalah epik terpanjang di dunia. Epik ini tercipta sebelum epik Mahabharata. Isinya sebagian terbesar berbentuk puisi yang ditulis dalam bahasa Bugis kuno. Epik ini mengisahkan tentang Sawerigading, seorang pahlawan yang gagah berani dan juga perantau.

La Galigo bukanlah teks sejarah karena isinya penuh dengan mitos dan peristiwa-peristiwa luar biasa. Namun demikian, epik ini tetap memberikan gambaran kepada sejarahwan mengenai kebudayaan Bugis sebelum abad ke-14.

Sebagian manuskrip La Galigo dapat ditemui di perpustakaan-perpustakaan di Eropa, terutama di Perpustakaan Koninkelijk Instituut Taal Land en Volkenskundig Leiden di Belanda. Terdapat juga 600 muka surat tentang epik ini di Yayasan Kebudayaan Sulawesi Selatan dan Tenggara, dan jumlah mukasurat yang tersimpan di Eropa dan di yayasan ini adalah 6000 tidak termasuk simpanan oleh pribadi-pribadi.

---------------------------------

REFERENCE: 2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sureq_Galigo
Sureq Galigo
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sureq Galigo or La Galigo is an epic creation myth of the Bugis from South Sulawesi, written between the 13th and 15th century in the Indonesia language Buginese. It has become known to a wider audience mostly through the theatrical adaptation I La Galigo by Robert Wilson.[1] The poem is composed in pentameters and relates the story of humanity's origins but serves also as practical everyday almanac.[1] It evolved mostly through oral tradition and is still sung on important occasions. The earliest preserved written versions date back to the 18th century, earlier ones have been lost due to insects, climate or destruction.[1] Consequently, there is no complete or definite version of Galigo but the preserved parts amount to 6000 pages or 300,000 lines of text, making it one of the largest works of literature.[2] The original Buginese, in which also the production is sung, is now only understood by less than 100 people[2] but so far only parts of it have been translated into Indonesian and no complete English language version exists either.[1]

---------------------------------

REFERENCE: 3) PDF ORIGINAL/SCANNED DOCUMENT DOWNLOADED

THE I LA GALIGO EPIC CYCLE OF SOUTH CELEBES AND ITS DIFFUSION (Andi Zainal Abidin) Translated and adapted by C. C. Macknight*

The I La Galigo epic cycle is one of the most remarkable works of literature to be found in Indonesia. It consists of a large body of poetry written in an old form of the Buginese language and recounting a series of linked s t o r i e s . This paper introduces the cycle and traces some of the results of its d i f f u s i o n into areas beyond its point of origin in South Celebes. In p a r t i c u l a r , variations in the role of its chief character, Sawerigading, are described in some d e t a i l . This d i f fusion is probably associated with the dispersal of Buginese people themselves, and in some cases this can be historically demonstrated. The bulk of the known manuscripts of I La Galigo material is to be found in European l i b r a r i e s , p a r t i c u l a r l y the library of Leiden University. There is also a collection of about 600 pages in the library of the Cultural Foundation of South and Southeast Celebes (Yayasan Kebudayaan Sulawesi Selatan dan Tenggara, formerly the M a t t h e s s t i c h t i n g ) , which combined with the European collections of about 5 , 4 0 0 pages, makes a total of some 6 , 0 0 0 p a g e s . 1 An unknown amount still remains in the hands of people in South C e l e b e s , 2 although in the nineteenth century, M a t t h e s , who had at his disposal a collection of over 2 , 0 0 0 pages of this material w r i t t e n down by C o l l i ' p u j i e , the queen of Tanete, thought this about a third of the whole c o r p u s . 3 As R. A. Kern has pointed out, it is most remarkable that the preIslamic Buginese people, who were still very few in number, have produced one of the w o r l d 1 s most extended bodies of l i t e r a t u r e . 4 * The translator wishes to thank Dr. Virginia Matheson, Dr. L. Y. Andaya, Professor E. Koch Emmery, Dr. J. Noorduyn and the author for advice and assistance. The consonants of Buginese names have the values given them in the new Indonesian spelling: thus, Colli'pujie, not Tjolli'pudjie. See R. A. Kern, Catalogus van de Boegineesche, tot den I La Galigo-cyclus behoorende handschriften der Leidsche Universiteitsbibllotheek alsmede van die in andere Europeesche bibliotheken (Leiden: Universiteitsbibllotheek, 1939); Catalogus van de Boeginese, tot de I La Galigo-cyclus behorende handschriften van Jajasan Matthes (Matthesstichting) te Makassar (Indonesie) (Makassar: Jajasan Matthes, 1954). In 1972 Dr. Macknight photographed several privately owned I La Galigo manuscripts in South Celebes. Copies of the microfilm have been.lodged with the Yayasan Kebudayaan Sulawesi Selatan dan Tenggara, the Lembaga Bahasa Nasional, Jakarta, and in the library of the Australian National University. B. F. Matthes, Aanteekeningen op de Boeginesche Chrestomathie (Amsterdam and Makassar: Bijbelgenootschap, 1864-1872), p. 251. R. A. Kern, Catalogus . . . van Jajasan Matthes, p. v.

---------------------------------

REFERENCE: 4) PDF ORIGINAL/SCANNED DOCUMENT DOWNLOADED

THE I LA GALIGO EPIC CYCLE OF SOUTH CELEBES AND ITS DIFFUSION (Andi Zainal Abidin) Translated and adapted by C. C. Macknight*

THE MENTIONING OF KERIS

The Cycle in Gorontalo

The legend of Sawerigading and his sister, Rawe, is closely connected with the development of various kingdoms in this area. (19) The legend says that once upon a time, Sarigade (Sawerigading), the son of the king ofLuwu' in the land of the Bugis, came to visit his sister who had moved away from their parents.

His fleet of several dozen large vessels came to land at a cape called Bayolamilate in the country of Padengo. There, Sarigade discovered his sister, Rawe, married to a local king,the ruler of Hulontalangi. Together, the brothers-in-law agreed toattack various states around the Gulf of Tomini, and then to dividetheir conquests. Sarigade took those people who carried a thrusting blade (keris): the ruler of Hulongtalangi took those who carried aslashing blade (kelewang}.

Afterwards Sarigade bade farewell to hisbrother-in-law and went to the country of Cina to search for a beauti-ful girl who was said to be the exact twin of his sister in Luwuf. Hetook with him a fingernail, a lock of hair and measurements of theheight and width of- his sister. His fleet consisted of one large ves-sel and two hundred smaller ones, crowded with thousands of crewmen. In Cina he did in fact find the beauty he was seeking and her name was Cu Da In.

Footnote:
16. See A. Zainal Abidin, "Mitos Asal-mula Keradjaan Buton," Bingkisan Jajasan Kebu-dajaan Sulawesi Selatan dan Tenggara, Th. II, No. 1 (1968), pp. 16-38.
17. In the I La Galigo cycle it is called Welenrengnge.
18. In this name, Kagua means bone, Fotu means head. In the following names, Sugimeans ruler.
19. The following account is based on an unpublished manuscript by S. R. Nur S. H.,"Mythos Sawerigading dalam sedjarah pertumbuhan keradjaan-keradjaan di Gorontalo."

---------------------------------

REFERENCE: 5) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata#Historical_context

MAHABHARATA

Traditionally, the authorship of the MahÇbhÇrata is attributed to Vyasa. There have been many attempts to unravel its historical growth and composition layers. Its earliest layers probably date back to the late Vedic period (ca. 8th c. BC)[2] and it probably reached its final form by the time the Gupta period began (ca. 4th c. AD).[3]

---------------------------------


Now I know the meaning of Baratha.
Those indian immigrants said they wanna go back home to 'Baratha'. So, Baratha means 'Nation'. And so Roti Paratha (Baratha) is National Bread?.. who da fikin care.

Now there are Bugis interest in my search for Keris.
Will search on Bugis (Buginese) activities around Asia way before Parasmewara (Parashm Vara) is born. Have to go to Holland and Sulawesi for original manuscript, frikin crap!... I think Galigo is one cool dude, like Badang. They could be related to Hancock. The Supra Deva thingy.

There's conection between Tivalli, deepavalli and Bali. Derived from same word. From old manuscript on Legenda Bali. UFOs are reported in Bali.

End of Captain Log.

Thanks you (sorry, I cant see your name here in this reply menu box. fickin me.)


I read the article by Farish Noor, here:
http://www.othermalaysia.org/2006/11/27/pi...acial-politics/

It's useful. But I smell politic curry in there. Nevermind.
Anyway from Farish Noor article I learnt few symbolime of Keris. But I didnt help much on the wavy thingy.

I met this 'Pendekar' guy at a 'Silat school'. He got 2 Keris. One long keris, infront. And one short keris, at the back. The shorter keris is more dangerous from the longer one. He said the short Keris is use by assasins. The longer one, is kinda like a display of pride, or art, you know, branded item like Prada or Gucci. But the shorter one is da most dangerous and most effective weapon, and the fav among assasins. There are load of assasins back then in the old kingdom. Which is why there were many 'city centres' back then coz the Sultan keep on changing em (the threat of assasins, power struggle.) and everytime they'll bring along hundreds of people who will settle in the new cuty centre and get married, and everything from literature to food to language became 'rojak'. That's what keris did to history.

The pendekar said the short keris is for close contact fight, like tango. So, the Keris user must be super fast pendekar. He showed me few steps of using the Keris, and he was too fast - like Bruce Lee or Donny Yen with pencil. Donny Yen can damage the enemy with a pencil. If Donny Yen get a Keris, the enemy body will be cut into 20 parts in one minute. The short Keris is so effective.

anyway, cheers for the link.

If you ask an Indonesian, especially a Javanese, he'd be adamant that the keris was invented by Javanese. He will point to the earliest known sculpture or stone figurine of a keris as found on a wall of the Borobodur temple, dated to the 8th century, as evidence for their claim.

We cant deny that the Javanese "empu", i.e keris maker, is today the foremost acknowledged craftsman in keris making, with his own formal proficiency rating system.

But if you consider that the earliest kingdoms of the keris wielding people, i.e. Malays n Javanese, arose in around 100 AD in the northern parts of the Malay Peninsula, i.e. Ligor, Kedah, Pattani, Gangga Negara, in a region collectively known as Langkasuka, rather than in around 400 - 500 AD in the islands of Java or Sumatra, it would not be implausible to postulate a Peninsular early origin for the keris. Sort of like a cradle, from where the art of keris making later went to its more advanced nursery stage in Java.

Sir Stamford Raffles, who was first Governor of Betawi (Batavia) before he came over to be administrator of Singapore in fact wrote womething to that effect in his book.

It is interesting that the 8th century, i.e. 775 AD, was also the time frame during which a combined Srivijayan-Sailendran force led by Dharmasethu of Srivijaya n Sangrama Dhananjaya (also called "Vishnu") of Sailendra first landed in Ligor on the far northern end of the Malay Peninsula to make their first conquest of Langkasukan territory. Could that hv been the time when they first discovered the keris n brought it back to Sumatra n Java?

The keris, especially the short version, is basically a dagger. The longer version would effectively be a sword. The wave would hv been an artitistic/aesthetic modification thought up by the very artistically inclined craftsmen from among a people who've always been known to be artistically inclined.

Besides, the wave also introduces an extra psychological 'fear factor' into a would-be opponent.

Like, what would you be thinking as a fighter facing a formidable keris-wielding adversary ... who could be wrenching out a horrific-looking, sturdy, wavy blade from out of your bloody chest or gut after having stabbed it deep inside you with it. Like, you could hv lost the mental contest even before the actual battle started.

I'm not aware of mention of the keris in the Sireq Galigo. If that is true, that means the keris could hv been born well before the Christian era, i.e. before the first formation of the earliest formal Malay kingdoms.

Well, guys hv always fought n killed one another, even before the era of kings. So ... could be possible ...

FYI, the Sultan of Kedah has just launched a book by someone on the keris called "Semangat Keris Melayu". Now if you could get hold of a copy of that ...

FYI also, the Muzium Negara has been conducting an exhibition on traditional Malay weapons ... if I recall correctly from January through February this year. I'd give them a call if I were you.

So what's your movie gonna be called ... if I may know ...

"Barath" does not mean "nation". "Rashtra" does. E.g. Maha Rashtra, i.e. Great Nation.

"Barath" is the native name for India, in commemoration of Prince Barath, son of King Dashrata or Dushanta, first legendary king of India, by a beautiful woman whom he met in the forest while out hunting, named Shakunthala.

Oh yeah. You could REALLY kill someone with a pen.

I still remember reading an article in one of them bodybuilding mags many years ago.

A bodybuilder found himself hustled n roughed up by another one, a bigger n stronger bodybuilder. The bigger guy sort of ended up sitting astride the chest of the smaller one ... happily pummeling away. The smaller one was hapless n helpless. More out of desperation rather than fighting skill, he managed to grab his pen n started jabbing away with the sharp point at his attacker's chest.

The bigger guy sort of started backing off ... n eventually they separated n went their separate ways.

A few days later ... the bigger guy died. Apparently the smaller guy's pen had penetrated his chest n punctured his lung.

Thanx Dreamhunter form meanin of Baratha. Now I know what they mean when they said 'balek Barataha'. So it's 'Balek India'. I know there r scientist and smart people inside here. I know there r people who care about knowledge and facts. Me, im ignorant, and learnin in my own way. Most of da time I screwed up.

Thanx PerisaiLangkasuka for that real but tragic story of the hunky dudes. Imagine poking Arnold Shchblablanger with a pencil. Pencil and anything sharp can be a weapon. I always keep a pen in my pocket, in case I meet an interesting babe, you know, tel. no and stuff.

Dreamhuntre, you led me to this Borobodur temple slash indonesian keris theory. I found many websites. So I copynpaste here da stuff I found form Indonesian websites. I did this coz it sounds weird, irony and funny.

Keris is an original Indonesian culture.
Although in the 14th century, Indonesian people are either Hindu or Buddhist, there's not any evidence that the keris comes from Indonesia or other country. Also never been found is any direct relationship with traditional weapon of the two religion. If in certain temples in Java found in the stone carving that depicts a weapon shaped like  keris, in temples in India that kind of weapon simply are not found. 
Even weapon with pamor, is never been found in Indian history. The weapon shape like keris is never found in India. In Mahabarata and Ramayana, which are written by Indian epic writer(s), there can't be found any weapon named keris. The type of weapon in the Hindu epic are bow and arrows; gada, sword and chakra. But not any mention of keris! Keris is only found after those two epic stories are adapted by Javanese and become wayang stories. Some Western scholar wrote that in Persia (approx. Iran now) there were also weapon with pamor that is similiar with keris in Indonesia, this is also incorrect fact!

And then the website took me to Borobudur temple. Massive temple. Very Super Massive. And it tells about the theory of keris could be originated from this Budhist temple. But there's no hard fact on that, no names, no manuscript, just plain imagination, and suggestive opinion. You know, theory.

Borobudur is a Budhist temple. Load of carving. And there's a lot of monkeys holding the 'theorised indonesian keris'. Most of the carving shows Monkey Warriors at war with, Im not sure whom. Sorry, I'm ignorant and more atrracted at da monkeys. But look at em monkeys..! They are kickin arse..! Seems like the Monkey warriors is angry at da local people, and there was massive war - sort of Planet Of The Ape movie flick. The monkeys are nude tho, except Hanoman the Monkey King, he stands and fight bravely like a man. Darwin was right..! But ther's no sequel of Hanoman story, dunno if he ever evolve to a man. Nevermind.

But its interesting to see the so called 'keris buda' or 'Budha's Keris'. But how come Budha got keris? I thought he just sit back and smile nicely. Chill.. no war. How come Budha/ Budhist/ Borobudha got involved in massive war? I thought it's all about peace and harmony...? But Look at em monkeys..! Its sooo weird. Maybe Borobudha is a mixed of Hindu and Budha culture, for political reason, or for cultural social science reason. Sorry, Im suck at givin out theory. Pic link below n caption:


http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/images/kerism1.jpg

1.  Prambanan I. A monkey warrior holding a Prambanan I style dagger. The leaf shaped blade is the great grandfather of the modern keris. Located at Candi Shiva, Prambanan Temple Complex, Central Java.
NewGuy comment: Looks like the Planet of the Ape dude is stealing the keris from the indonesian dude. And Run Lola.. Run!


http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/images/kerism2.jpg

2.  Above: Prambanan II. Laksmana holding a Prambanan II style dagger. All essential features of a keris are present, and the blade form is what is now known as 'keris buda'. The handle, with its heavy pommel, is designed for use with an overarm stab. Located at Candi Shiva, Prambanan Temple Complex, Central Java.
NewGuy comment: the guy next to him says.."Yo, chill out dude.."


http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/images/kerism3.jpg

3.  Right: Prambanan II. Close-up of the dagger held by Laksmana in the photograph above.


http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/images/kerism4.jpg

4.  Prambanan I after the move to East Java. Hanoman, The Monkey King, shown using an elongated version of the Prambanan I style of dagger. Located at Candi Panataran, East Java.


http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/images/kerism6.jpg

1  A keris buda from the period 11th to 13th Century. No pamor is in evidence, and the laminated construction technique has not yet appeared.
2  A late keris buda. The blade is of early form, but laminated construction was used, and pamor is in evidence. This keris was probably made after the mid 14th Century, as a copy of an earlier piece.
3  Transitional form of keris. In this blade the emergence of the modern keris has begun. Some features of the keris buda are still in evidence, such as the square tang, high gandik, and broad gonjo. However, the tang, although still essentially square has a slight radius on its front and back, and the blade has lengthened, and become lighter. Close examination reveals residual traces of black iron with what appears to be an inclusion of nickelous material. The bulk of the blade material is heavily grained iron or steel, and as it retains much of its original form, indicates that the laminated outer skin would have been very thin. This blade appears to be an early attempt at laminated construction, and probably dates from 13th to 14th Century East Java.
4  A modern keris made in 1987, the blade executed in the Central Javanese Surakarta style.

----------

The above theory doesnt support my search for that 'wavy' design on Keris.
And I think the above theory is very weak, lack of facts/ref stuff.

Plus the above theory of Keris Buda... Seems more like a make believe thingy, like a bad script writing. But I respect the theorist tho. Theorist have the right to believe in his/her theory.

The 'Keris Buda' is similar to the modern day army dagger in Indian Army.


STUFF I FOUND from Indian websites.

'Keris Buda' or Indian Dagger in antique from.
This is an indian antique dagger, I found in an antique website. It's related to Hindu manuscript story.
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/1193/indiandagger6.jpg


'Keris Buda' or Indian Dagger in modern from - for Indian Army.
The medieval daggers that we deal in retain the effectiveness as well as the elegance of the daggers of the ancient times. These products are of the same capability that they used to have in the ancient times. We make daggers available to the Indian Army as well and it is our specialty that we make the products according to the demand of the buyers. Just a click on this page would open your eyes to a wide spectrum of ancient daggers and you can place the order just by sending the code number of the item. For these facilities made available to our clients, we are claimed to be the best ancient dagger manufacturer and Nepali dagger supplier based in India.
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8431/indiandagger10dm7.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5323/indiandagger14gb0.jpg


'Keris Buda' or Indian Dagger as a toy.
I found this toy in e-bay. Looks exactly like the 'Keris Buda'.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6453/indiandagger20tf5.jpg



Conclusion, the indonesian theorist does not support (no fact or manuscript) the unique 'wavy design' on keris. The theory does not show clearly the evolution from a bulky dagger to a sharp, pointy and wavy keris.

Sawaregading (Sarigade) in La Galigo went to China to find his future wife.

From La Galigo The Cycle in Gorontalo.
THE I LA GALIGO EPIC CYCLE OF SOUTH CELEBES AND ITS DIFFUSION
(Andi Zainal Abidin) Translated and adapted by C. C. Macknight

"Afterwards Sarigade (Sawerigading) bade farewell to his brother-in-law and went to the country of Cina to search for a beautiful girl who was said to be the exact twin of his sister in Luwu'. He took with him a fingernail, a lock of hair and measurements of the height and width of- his sister. His fleet consisted of one large vessel and two hundred smaller ones, crowded with thousands of crewmen. In Cina he did in fact find the beauty he was seeking and her name was Cu Da In."

The Bugis lord went to Cina with 201 vessels + thousand of homeboyz, lookin for luv. He is so bling-bling like Snoop D. Not only that he's also good in CSI, he took fingernails and hair samples. Cool.

Im goin China.

In 2005, UNESCO gave the title Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity to Kris of Indonesia.
Proclamation 2005: "The Indonesian Kris"

An official acknowledgement from international organization of education, science and culture.
Nuff said....,





Oh yeah..., we got Wayang too....


But don't be sad...
Malaysia got Makyong Proclamation 2005: "Mak Yong Theatre"

^^^

Don't forget that we will proclaim 2009 as Najib-killer year ..... Hehehehe

So, you have to take care with your area and culture because Najib want to realize his ambition ... Malaysia as the Champion of Malay World and also the strongest military power in the region ...

Yo everyone,
pls do not treat this thread as political/racial warzone. I dont like it.

You shoudnt waste time word-fightin on my thread.
And say somethin like.. 'Hey! this object belong to us!..". Thats dumb.

Either you are Indian, Chinese, Malay or Indonesian, all of you are NOT pure race, meaning all of you are forced to be one. You see? Forced to be one, for the benefit of all.

Thre's no such thing as 'pure Chinese'. The people of Chin consists of many races/tribes whom were forced to call themselves Chinese. Actually a Cantonese should become emperor instead of Chin, and my uncle Ng Man Tat shoud be the ruler. No, just kidding.

And the same goes to Malay or Indonesian. There's no pure Malay or Pure Indonesian.Even some, or million of indonesions consider themselves as Malay - refer www.melayuonline.com - which is weird. But weird is cool too. Maybe you guys are relatives, considering you ancestors from old kingdoms, like Makassar or Goa. So better be friends and exchange ideas.

The same with Americans and Britains and Egyptian. Just mixed bags of everything.
I went to England, the Singh there welcome me, "Welcome to our country...". He considers himself as a Briton. "I'm a British.".Wow. I know how insignificant is this old man in the eye of the English kids, but I know he is willing to die for the Queen.

So, pls dont post racial/ political curry in my thread.
You should post em racial/ political curry to the proper thread. And waste your life there, fightin
without getting involve physically in a real war, or even own a kris.

I got 5 Keris and 2 custom-made swords.
And 13 Wayang Kulit form China, Java, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand.
I went to Malacca, there are Portuguese! Mr Van Giesel.
And every food stall and restaurant got venegar..! Wow, so Euro.

Just in case youre interested ... theres a thread in AF Malaysia Chat on an upcoming Thai-made movie called "Queens of Langkasuka."

The thread has sunk down to page 2 or 3 or 4 by now. But its got interesting pics which some guys hv posted of some great looking keris being carried by the main protagonists ... both guys n gals. Have a peek ..

* * *
Oh ... dont you worry about our friend, good old DrGielTroll. He's our own very well known resident flamethrower. He's a harmless old, crinkled-up pussycat really ... but he should try shootin that freakin machinegun of his into his own arse some time. The one he uses to crap flamin $hit on this board.

1 - WHY THE KERIS/KRIS IS WAVY?

to inflict & maximize damaged to the victim & hold well in the sheath= told by elders

2 - WHO CREATED THAT WAVY DOUBLE SIDED WEAPON?

has always been WAVY DOUBLE SIDED WEAPON since been introduced, date unknown but believed to be many centuries ago= told by elders

I was in Singapore about a year ago and walking though Little India when my wife and I came across this Antique shops that was selling Malay artefacts. In this shop they had many beautiful kerises, one in particular caught my eye. I can't tell you much about it ie where its from how old it was etc but the blade itself was inscriped in Arabic and the handle was intricately carved and very beautiful. I enquired about it thinking if it was up to $1000, I'd be willing to buy it. $25000 was the price, I admired it for a little bit longer then I left .

Captain log - 5:48 AM, Thursday, March 12, 2009


Thanx all for contributin infos to this thread.

I found out WHY keris is wavy - but still the fact is loose, anyhoo its interesting.

The wavy design on shorter keris is mainly for ultimate damage - which is the weapon of choice for assassin back in the old kingdom era. Killing (slashing & stabbing) is made easy by the short, pointy and wavy design. With the short keris you can easily and quickly slash the leg/ arm/ neck/ body/ joints. Each slash will cause severe damage. The short keris can slash thro bones.

Below is some infos on short keris - I got from Filipino's webs.
My theory is La Galigo (the bugis lord from old kingdom) came from Filipino. Or vice-verca. I dunno. Below is PUNYAL - short keris - from Filipino.

Pic of Punyal
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9896/punyal.jpg


PUNYAL
The Punyal, a shorter fighting and/or utility bladed weapon of the Maranao tribes, is commonly referred to as the Kris Knife outside of the Philippines. The Punyal is a thrusting blade that is sometimes used in conjunction with the Kris Sword.

If you notice, the Punyal has no finger guard. Instead the tang extends back from the spine of the blade so that the blade hangs below the handle, protecting the fingers from an opponent's blade.

That also protects the fingers from running up onto the edge during thrusts. This particular design has a flat area for more comfort in handling which is the design of the blade maker for the Punyal we have here.

Different versions of Punyal designs will be seen various tribal knife makers. It is considered an important side arm and is used in close quarter fighting.


http://www.marcialtirada.net/traditional_filipino_weapons


The Kris is the most common Moro sword found in Sulu & Mindanao. The Kris sword is extensively used by the Tausug, Samal and Yakan warriors. The waves of each Kris denotes a flame or a serpent (depending on who has made it and for what purpose).  The Kris with the most wave will always be carried by someone with the authority and believed to give the deepest thrust and could even go through the enemy's body. 

The waves are simply variations that tells a stranger where they came from, what region, or land, or their position in the community. The Kris has a rather vague history with folklore giving many varying accounts where some also believe that it is symbolic of the stingray's tail. Some  believe it's a design of the mythical serpent or dragon and some believe it has a distinct religious association.

There are so many reasons why the blade of a Kris is shaped like a crawling serpent. Whatever the reasons are, these type of swords can deliver the most damage when used with both slash and thrust movements. Hacking works well with this sword due to it's unique design. The unique design of the Kris distributes the weight perfectly for hacking anything it hits in half! 

There are many versions of the Kris and each version has names that are not far from it’s original name, like Kalis, Keris, etc.



Other infos on keris - and infos on meaning of Laksamana, Panglima etc:

The most iconic weapon to the Malays is Keris. It is known as "Malay Dagger" in the Western world. It has double-sided blade. The blade has various size and length, commonly from 5 inch to 30 inch long. During the reign of Malacca Sultanate, Keris became the symbol of power. The Sultans had his official Keris that symbolize the power to rule over the land and sea. All cabinet members of the Sultanate had their own Keris.

The military commander had their own Keris as well. The Laksamana (equivalent to the Admiral in modern navy), Panglima (equivalent to the Chief-of-Staff in modern army), and Temenggung (equivalent to the Inspector General in modern police force)used their official Keris as the authority to command their respective troops.

Common people bring along Keris with them when they travelled across the country as a self-defense weapon. Normally, people practicing Silat (Malay form of martial arts) like to use Keris during duel with his or her opponent. Those being stabbed using this weapon felt excruciating pains and eventually died due to the poisonous blade.

In modern days, the Keris still symbolize the integrity and fighting spirit of the Malays.

Another important weapon of Malay origin is sword. People of the Malay world throughout history used their swords for two main purposes: as a weapon and as a utility tool. Various Indonesian, Malaysian swords have different shapes. Swords of Malay world can be grouped into four categories. These are: Parang, Pedang, Klewang and Golok.


end of Captain Log.

Just saw an Ancient Weapons exhibition in Muzium Negara Malaysia KL yesterday.....

You should check it out if you're in KL... Quite extensive collection of keris btw....
They also featuring many Indonesian keris: Balinese, Javanese, Bugis, etc.

Despite the presentation at high profiled Muzium Negara, the exhibition curiously focussed the mystical, sacred, and rather "supertitious" nature of the weapon...
I think it should be done in more scientific socio-cultural aproach rather than those scary flying keris or bloody vengeful spear. Sure its interesting, but tends to trivialize keris just as vessel of magic things.

Of course there are Malay Indonesians too. "Indonesian" is not a race, it's a term of nationality. In fact, we believe that the cradle of Malay civilization is in Sumatra, as Malayu Kingdom in Jambi was the one responsible popularizing the term "Melayu/Malay", and that it was Srivijaya of Palembang that brought Malay identity to the Mon-Khmer people of the Malay Peninsula. Anyway, Malaysians ARE our relatives and we love them

About keris, as the Borobudur theory and La Galigo suggest, Indonesia = origin of keris

PS: I'm not a Javanese nor a Buginese

Naaahhh. It was invenetd in the Malay Peninsula.

Naaahhh. It was invented in the Malay Peninsula.

Even Raffles said that in his book, n he was governor of Betawi.

It was only improved upon in Java. It was brought back to the islands from Ligor by Dharmasethu (SriVijaya), Sang Rama Dhanan Jaya n Samara Thungga (Sailendra) aftery they ahd invaded Ligor in 775 AD. Then they showed it to their folks back home.

That's why you only hv stone carvings of the keris in Borobodur dated back to 8th century. Whereas our people had been making it from before 100 AD.

Sareq Galigo was only written in 15th century. I can write a book today n claim that Malaysia built modern battle tanks in the 19th century, n 500 years later guys will believe that too.

Hohohho... Even though I find your theory that the grand Srivijaya actually took something from a lesser kingdom amusing, don't you think you've forgotten one important thing from your theory, and that is solid proof? While we got a lot of them, carved in stone and paper.. err, I mean lontara....

It is better to say that we share the art of Keris here among the Malay speaking country which are Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and South Thailand (I know Indonesia is different but Indonesia too have Malay ethnics in Sumatera). Nobody have the monopoly over that certain art if the art is shared by others since in ancient times people keep moving places. In Kedah it is not as popular as in Kelantan and Patani although we know about it, we are damn proud of our Kedah Land as we also have ancient Temples and Palace ruins in Pendang district and Kuala Muda district although not as huge as Borobudur Temple Complex or Angkor Wat or even if we do not have Phu Keris Art, that is nothing to be ashamed of.

We have Vast Wet Paddy Fields, Water Irrigation System for Paddy Fields, Able Snake Catchers, Native people who can speak Tamil, Pali, Hindi or Thai who are Muslims or Buddhist, Thai Buddhist Temples, Mosques and ancient Langgar (Tombs), 5th C AD Inscription of our beloved Bhagadatta King and our country name (Kedah) too is carved in Brihadeshvar Temple in South India as a fierce country who fought with Tamils in Battle and etc. In Malaysia, we refer our Kingdom as a Country and not a State. Who dare to say that we purposely submitted ourselves into Malaysia or any other country, we will chop off their mouth, our King, Sultan Ahmad Tajuddin Mukarram Syah had tried his best to avoid from being colonized by foreign powers like Siam and Burma but we are not fortunate enough since our location had made us easily attacked. Malaysia is only an entity we are in today, we are beyond Malaysia or any other modern country.

Back to the topic in respect of Mr. Newguy, I think that Keris is an art practiced by ancient Kambujas and also becoming an art of SEA natives (not Cambodians, hope they are not perasan, this one is about those of ancient India). We can see it in the practice of Puja Keris where people with the knowledge usually sprinkling some lime juice and smoke it with myrhh in certain days.

Kambujas had been here in SEA since Iron Age. I don't know about the practice of Puja Keris or Senjata among Cambodians. They are those who had the pride over their Kambuja ancestors like other people do not have Kambuja ancestry too in this world. I had saw a Keris Pusaka of my friend with Pagar Ruyung Royal Ancestry, his father had never Puja the Keris anymore because their family are afraid of the practice. They just keep it under that friend's bed, he also said that it is a shameful art. I wonder why should he be ashame with his ancestor's art. We people with Siamese ancestry love our traditional art although we too had been influenced by modern life. I would love to learn Silat too, but have no chance to it.

Kamboj/Kamboh in Modern Times

The modern representatives of Ancient Kamboja who still call themselves Kamboj (or prakritic Kamboh, or Kamoz) or Kambhoj are estimated to be around 1.5 million and the rest of the Kamboja population, over the time, has submerged with other occupationalized castes/groups of the Indian sub-continent. Consequently, one can notice numerous of their sub-caste names over-lap with those of other communities of northern India like the Khatris, Rajputs, Jats, Brahmins, Aryans, etc.

The Kambojs of the north, by tradition, are divided into 52 and 84 clans. 52 line is stated to be descendants of Cadet branch and 84 from the elder Branch. This is claimed as referring to the young and elder military divisions under which they had fought the Bharata War. Numerous of their clan names overlap with other Kshatriyas and the Rajput castes of the north-west India, thereby suggesting that some of the Kshatriya/Rajput clans of north-west must have descended from the Ancient Kambojas.

The Kambojs/Kambohs practiced weapon-worship in the past but the practice is now going out of vogue.

Refer:
Glossary of Castes, H. A. Rose, 1883, p 444; See entry at Kamboh, Punjabi Mahankosh, Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha etc

Oh yeaaahhhhhh.

Amusin or not ... the great Malayu Palembang Srivijaya DID take lots n lots of stuff from its lesser ... but older n more anciently-established nevertheless ... Malayu allies in the Semenanjung. After all ... thats what bein an overlord kingdom is all about, aint it?

Stuff like tin, silver, gold etc. etc. ... n also not a few handsome princes n beautiful princesses ... apart from thousands n thousands of krises ... n other things ...

That was until ... until Kedah Langkasuka had outshone Palembang as a COMMERCIAL centre in the early 11th century ... what with all those pirates of all sorts of ethnicities swarmin the ports of Palembang n Jambi like bees swarmin a hive ...

n then Chulamani Varma Deva, son Mara Vijaya n grandson Sang Rama Vijaya decided to shift their glorious Srivijayan throne wholesale from Palembang to Kedah ... lest a rapidly-emerging, swiftly-ascending, newly-broken-away Nagara Sri Dharmaraja (Ligor) in the north ... under the illustrious Sujita Raja (Jaya Vira Varman) started getting other fantastic ideas ... like conquering Kedah Langkasuka from a gradually weakening Palembang ...

Let alone a constantly southward-expanding Angkor Khmer under Jayavarman V ...

So that's how it went ... Sang Rama Vijaya was eventually defeated by the forces of "Geroda Vishnu" ... n captured by Rajendra Chola in his new Srivijayan palace in Kedah Langkasuka ... in 1025 AD.

He was replaced by Sri Deva ... n he was only let go after pledgin submission to Cholan overlordship ... n went back to Palembang ...

Poor Sang Rama Vijaya ... perhaps he didnt study his palace's feng shui properly ...

This is a link to the article that goes with the previously published pictures of keris shown in Javanese stone carvings.

In keris-literate circles there is no longer any real doubt as to the origin of the keris.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html[/url]

Incidentally, the so-called "keris buda" is named for the era, not for The Buddha; the period prior to roughly the 13th. century in Jawa is referred to as the Buda period, thus the "keris buda" is the keris associated with this era.

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