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okikurumi
Some notes on the history of Ainu language. Okikurumi plain talk

Ainu are indigenous people of Japan. According to many anthropologists (Neil Gordon Munro, Yamaguchi Bin, Hanihara Kazurō and others) Ainu don't have any similarities with any population in Asia and Oceania except people of Japanese Neolithic culture or so called «Jomon culture». Skeletons of modern Ainu are very similar to these of so called Jomon period. In this connexion it is possible to state that it was Ainu who were the founder of so called Jomon culture.
Situation in linguistic is very similar to that of anthropology: Ainu language is considered as an isolated one by modern linguistics. Many linguists tried to show genetic relationship of Ainu with Austronesian (Olof Gjerdman, Leo Sternberg, Murayama $hitirō, Alexander Vovin, Anatolii Solntsev), with Altaic (Hattori Shirō, James Patrie, Alexey Burykin), with Indo-European (John Batchelor, Koppelmann, Naert, Lindquist, van Windekens). But all these arguments were based on accidental lexical and phonological similarities which didn't present any system. Moreover they didn't pay any attention to the morphological structures of compared languages though it is the comparison of morphological structure which can solve the problem of relationship. Languages which are not relative can have some similar features but relative languages must have structural similarities. To ascertain the similarity of morphological structure is much more important than pick up some accidental similarities of lexics or phonology.
In this connexion it is possible to state that serious research on genetic relationship of Ainu language are just in their beginning.
According to my data there are no structural similarities between Ainu and Austronesian, between Ainu and Altaic and between Ainu and Indo-European so Gjerdman, Murayama, Sternberg, Vovin, Solntsev, Hattori, Patrie, Burykin, Batchelor, Koppelmann, Naert, Lindquist, van Windekens and many others are absolutely out of base.
In the period of Jomon Ainu lived in all Japanese islands and Ainu language was spoken from Ryukyu to Hokkaido. Toponyms of Ainu origin corroborate this fact: Fuji <- Huci - "grandmother", "kamuy of hearth", Tsushima <-tuyma - "far".
Because of Ainu were sea fishers and hunters and didn't practise agriculture a vast space of wild nature was absolutely necessary for existence of their culture. Ainu have never had any big settlements, the biggest social unit of Ainu was local group - utari. To maintain balance in nature and in human population was matter of vital importance for Ainu.
According to Oka Masao in the middle of Jomon period Austronesian newcomers from South-West Asia appeared in the southern part of Japanese archipelago. The main economical practice of these newcomers was agriculture. Agriculture destroyed the balance of nature and Ainu were forced to move northward. Ainu migration to the island of Sakhalin, the islands of Kuriles and Kamchatka began. And due to this fact in middle Jomon Ainu began to appear modern dialects: dialects of Sakhalin, Islands of Kuriles and dialects of Japanese islands. Of course in ancient Jomon Ainu also can existed some dialects but I suspect that it’s impossible for us to learn it anyhow. Also it is very difficult to reconstruct Ainu language of middle Jomon. However the language of middle Jomon most likely was similar to modern Ainu at least in structural meaning. There is a quite popular thought that if we are going to reconstruct ancient Ainu we should base on the Sakhalin Ainu because the most pure Ainu is presented by the Sakhalin dialects while Ainu of Hokkaido has been undergone the influence of Japanese in higher degree and in this connection is a depraved Ainu and can not be the base of reconstruction. But I think that neither Hokkaido nor Sakhalin dialects present so called “pure Ainu” and if we are going to reconstruct the Ainu of middle Jomon we should not base on one dialectal group. I think that we should analyze all dialects and pick up the common features and then we would be able to draw a picture of middle Jomon Ainu.
When Ainu moved northward they influenced strongly on the culture of Nivkh, Itelmen and Oroch. This fact had been reflected by language: for example: Ainu word kotan – «settlement», «inhabited area» exists in Mongolian as gotan, in the language of Gold – hoton, in Manchurian language – hotan, in Nivkh language – hoton. Or, for example, Ainu word inau, designating little baton with shavings – one of the most important objects of Ainu religion, exists in Nivkh language – nau, in Oroch language – ilau. In Itelmen language exists word kamul/kamuy designating spirits living in volcanoes and geysers, I believe that this word originated from Ainu word kamuy – “super human being”. I think that it is possible to speak about Ainu colonization because in Ainu language exists original, not borrowed word for expression of modality “should”, “must” – easirki while such a languages as Nivkh, Itelmen, Oroch use borrowed words to express this modality and originally have just two modalities: “want” and “cannot”. Modality “should” is a marker of high organized social system. Due to this parameter Ainu differ radically from such ethnical group as Nivkh, Oroch and Itelmen and due to this fact I think it is possible to speak about Ainu colonization.
While Ainu were moving northward in the southern part of Japanese archipelago appeared a group of newcomers from Central Asia and Siberia. These migrants were of Mongoloid anthropological type and spoke an Altaic language. According to Oka Masao these migrants were the founder of Yamato state and the main ethnic group of forming Japanese ethnicity. The first migration of these group came to the Japanese islands about 500 b.c. and the last one – about 300 a.c. The main clan of this last migration later became the emperor clan – tenno.
After the foundation of Yamato state began the epoch of permanent war between Ainu and Japanese. In the island of Honshu border between Yamato and Ainu lands was for a long time in the region of modern Sendai. Japanese for quite a long time were not as good fighters as Ainu. Only after some centuries of permanent fighting Japanese became samurai. And there are many elements of Ainu origin in samurai technique of fighting.
Only in the middle 15th century Japanese could reach southern Hokkaido and founded a settlement in the area of Ōsima. Since that time active colonization and japonization of Ainu began. After Meiji restoration of 1868 influx of Japanese to Hokkaido increased and japonization of Ainu became much more active and fierce. As a result by the middle of 20th century Ainu language practically went out of use.
Nowadays Ainu dialects of Hokkaido are the most alive dialects of Ainu. Moreover they are most completely described dialects of Ainu.
In the island of Sakahlin Ainu language was used as language of international communication by Russian officials, Japanese manufacturers and aborigines till 1905 when Souther Sakhalin became Karafuto.
After the end of Second World War most of Sakhalin Ainu were moved to the island of Hokkaido with Japanese. Some of speakers of Raichishka dialect were still alive till recent time and Murasaki Kyoko written down some texts from these informants.
As for Ainu of Kuriles – they were practically completely assassinated before some serious research on Ainu language began. Because of it we have very little information about their dialect especially about grammar. There is just some lists of words (Krasheninnikov, Dybowski, Murayama). And also the names of all of Kurile Islands are of Ainu origin: Kunashir <- Kunne Siri – «Black Island», Iturup <- Etoropa «Jellyfish», Urup <- Urup –«Salmon», Shikotan <- Si kotan – «Big inhabited area», Paramushir <- Para mosir «Large island», Simushir <- Si mosir «Big island» and so on.
Nowadays Ainu exist in the island of Hokkaido only. There are about 25000 Aynu in Japan now. Most of them are members of «Utari» and sometimes membership itself is marker of one's being Aynu. Contemporary Ainu are very well included into context of Japanese culture, many, who identify themselves as Ainu practically don't differ from Japanese and can not speak Ainu.
One may say that Ainu save their traditional rituals which are performed in the so called ethnographical settlements such as Siraoi. But it is well known that most of so called “traditional Ainu rituals” (for example famous marimo ritual performed in the lake of Akan) were invented by Japanese without any care of traditional Ainu culture but just in order to attract tourists. And in this connection I suspect that traditional Ainu life has been seriously destroyed and changed and those who are involved in Ainu tourist business but cannot speak Ainu should not really be considered as Ainu.
Nowadays when globalization increases when differences between cultures disappear fast what can be the basis for identification a person as a member of certain ethnic group? Only language can save and maintain traditional cultures nowadays. According to Whorf if people use a certain language they adopt certain concepts, certain way of world view, certain way of thinking through this language. Language is the key for a certain cultural tradition.
Because of it in the case of Ainu, I think, it is possible to state the following: really those who have some Ainu blood but cannot speak Ainu hardly should be treated as Ainu, only those who can speak Ainu should be treated as Ainu.
Nowadays the opinion that Ainu language is a dead language is widely spread among anthropologists and linguists. For example, if we turn to the last issue of Ethnology we can learn that there are only 15 Ainu speakers. It seems to be rather strange that there are only 15 Ainu speakers among 25 thousands Ainu.
According to Alfred Majewicz such point of view bases on the fact that Japanese linguists consider as Ainu native speakers only those Ainu who used Ainu language as mother tongue in their childhood and youth. These native speakers remember some prayers, songs and tales which they heard in their childhood. However they cannot produce any spontaneous utterance and their communicative ability is equal to zero. Because of it the surviving grandmas hardly can be treated as Ainu native speakers.
Ferdinand de Saussure wrote that no one language can die by its own death. No one language can die due to its inner causes. Language can die only by a violent death. Language can die only if ethnicity using this language is absolutely annihilated or if a stronger tribe imposes its language to an another tribe.
The consequence is following: no one language can exist and function normally without existence of certain social need for this language.
Though Law about preservation and maintain of Ainu language and culture was published in 1997 traditional Japanese racism and indifferency, museum and tourist business and also the fact that Japanese government is not going to recognize Ainu's right to be Ainu seriously prevent normal existence of Ainu language and culture. Nowadays in Japan there are many centers, foundations and societies devoted to restoration and promotion of Ainu language and Ainu culture, but all they are just half measures, because only autonomy can save Ainu language as well as any other language.
In this connexion question of possible passing of Kunashir, Iturup and Habomai archipelago to Japan becomes especially actual: Russian and Japanese both have been sharing Ainu territories for last 300 years but they always forget to ask Ainu. Ainu were "unconvenient" for Japanese colonization as well as for Russian. But we should not forget that Ainu still exist and they have much more rights to be the owner of so called "northern territories". And why we – people of the world are not going to pass "northern territories" to Ainu? It would be the first real step to real saving and maintaining of Ainu culture and language.

References:

Akulov A.Yu. On the typological characteristics of Ainu language in connection with its possible genetic relationship // Journal of Chiba University Eurasian Society № 8 August, 2005;

Majewicz A.F. Ajnu – lud, jego jezyk i tradycja ustna, Poznan, 1984;

Munro N.G. Prehistoric Japan Yokohama, 1911;

Refsing K. The Ainu language. The Morphology and Syntax of the Shizunai Dialect, Aarhus, 1986;

Whorf L.B. Language, Thought and Reality: selected writings of Benjamin Lee Whorf, N.Y.– L., 1959;

Yamaguchi B. Skeletal Morphology of the Jomon People // Transactions of International Symposium on Japanese as a member of the Asian and Pacific population, organized and edited by Hanihara Kazurō, September 25 – 29 1990, Kyoto;

Chiri M. 知里真志保 地名アイヌ語小辞典 札幌 (Chimei ainu go shō jiten – Short dictionary of Ainu place names), Sapporo 2000;

Hanihara K. 埴原和郎 日本人の誕生。人類はるかなる旅 (Nihonjin no tanjō. Jinrui haruka naru ryo – The birth of Japanese ethnicity. Long journey of human race), Tokyo 1996;

Bereznitskii S.V. Березницкий С.В. Мифология и верования орочей (Mythology and Creeds of Oroch), СПб., 1999;

Ostrovskii A.B. Островский А.Б. Мифология и верования нивхов (Mythology and Creeds of Nivkh), СПб., 1997;

Saussure F. de Соссюр Ф. де Заметки по общей лингвистике (Notes on General Linguistics), М., 2001

Volodin A.P. Володин А.П. Ительмены (The Itelmen), СПб., 2003;
wonda51
QUOTE
Nowadays in Japan there are many centers, foundations and societies devoted to restoration and promotion of Ainu language and Ainu culture, but all they are just half measures, because only autonomy can save Ainu language as well as any other language.
In this connexion question of possible passing of Kunashir, Iturup and Habomai archipelago to Japan becomes especially actual: Russian and Japanese both have been sharing Ainu territories for last 300 years but they always forget to ask Ainu. Ainu were "unconvenient" for Japanese colonization as well as for Russian. But we should not forget that Ainu still exist and they have much more rights to be the owner of so called "northern territories". And why we – people of the world are not going to pass "northern territories" to Ainu? It would be the first real step to real saving and maintaining of Ainu culture and language.


I think the language , tradition and culture of Ainu should be protected....
They begin to be proud of Ainu oneself, too.
the general Japanese tries also to preserve their language and cultures seriously.
pure Ainu will be gone in 100 years.
however Ainu's right is wierd..
it makes another disctimination oppositely like Buraku matter.
okikurumi
Research on The Contemporary Number of Ainu Language Speakers. The Contemporary Condition of Ainu Language


1. Introduction

According to Kayano Shiro:, son of Ainu leader Kayano Shigeru, the contemporary number of Ainu is about 30 thousands people. Most of them, about 24 - 25 thousands, live in the island of Hokkaido and the others live in the island of Honshu.
According to Ethnologue issued in 2005 there are only 15 Ainu speakers.
Japanese anthropologist provide another information. For example Murasaki Kyoko said in 2003 that there are only about 5 -6 persons who can speak Ainu. Yamaguchi Noriaki the author of "Aynu puyara" site in 2002 told me that there must be about 40 Ainu people who can speak Ainu.
It seems to be rather strange that data differ so radically and that the number of Ainu language speakers is so little while the number of those who identify themselves as Ainu is about 30.000 people. What's the matter? Is it possible that number of speakers indead is so little? And why it is so little?
How many people really can speak Ainu language? And may be the real number of Ainu is much less than 30 thousands?
I have managed this research in order answer these complicated and unconvenient questions.

2. The Definition of Speaker

Who can be treated as speaker of a language X?
To answer this question we should first seriously think of what does it mean "to speak".
"To speak" means "to produce spontaneous utterances in language X".
A person is a speaker of X if he or she can produce spontaneous utteances in language X.
And it should be specially marked that there is absolutely no matter how he or she got the ability of speaking in language X: was X mother tongue of this person or it was learned in adulthood. No matter absolutely. If a person can produce spontaneous utterances in X this person is a speaker of language X.

And if we are going to test: "is this person a speaker of X or not" we should pay attention to the ability of producing of spontaneous utterances only, i.e. to the communicative ability only.

Having got this definition we can easily see that those Ainu who are treated as Ainu language speakers by the Japanese anthropologists really hardly can be treated as speaker.
These so called Ainu speakers just remember and can retell texts of some legends, songs and so on, but their communicative ability is equal to zero.
These so called speakers used Ainu language as mother tongue in their childhood and youth but during all of their life they had to use Japanese and so they lost the ability of producing of spontaneous utterances, but they just remember and can retell some texts which they heard in their childhood.
But I seriously think that these so called "native speakers" really may retell texts without understanding the meaning of words and even having no imagination of Ainu grammar.
It is obviously not equal to speaking. Speaking is producing of spontaneous utterances. For example, a person who having entered to a shop say for example "I milk two" really is a speaker of English while for example a person who remember and can retell all text of "Hamlet" but can not express anything in English is not a speaker.
It is very clear in the case of English. And it is the same in the case of any language. And as far as Ainu is one of human language it must not be an exception.
If we are going to estimate the number of Ainu speakers we should, we must pay attention only to the ability of communication in Ainu.

3. Negative Factors

I have to tell that it was pretty difficult to get required information.
As a result of centuries of fierce Japanese colonization we have received that many of thouse who have Ainu blood are not interested in Ainu culture and Ainu language and sometimes are even against Ainu culture.

The second diffuclty is that here, in Japan, it is very difficult to receive any information which differs from common/official point of view.
For example, if you ask a Japanese "what do you think about an event X" the most probable answer would be official/common point of view, official interpretation of this event even when the person has different interpretation of this event X.
Because of during last 3 centuries Japanese always made Ainu shame their own culture and language and because of in contemporary Japan Ainu language is commonly treated as a dead language and widely spread is the imagination that only a few aged persons can speak Ainu, Ainu themselves, as far as they are members of Japanese society, also usually say just well known/official things; while the real information about how many people can speak Ainu is obviously "individual" "un-common" so it is not one that should be said, it is one that should not be spoken about. And if you wish to get this information you have to be familiar with those people who have such information, it of course requires much time, so it would be absolutely impossible to get all information in such a short period as 1 month.

Moreover, it should be noted that Ainu society is a very very compicated structure: there are so many movements, trends, ambitions.
Very often some Ainu provide obviously wrong (negative) information about other Ainu: "don't know language... don't speak... cannot..."

At least should be noted that probably almost all of Ainu people don't like to tell something about themselves to the anthropologists and don't like to cooperate with anthropologists. I suspect that such situation is the result of activity of some of Japanese anthroplogists who used Ainu just as material for their thesis and didn't care about existence of Ainu and forgot that first of all Ainu are human beings.

4. Detailed Description

During my stay in Hokkaido I have taken participation in three Ainu events: in Sisyamo kamuy nomi held in Siranuka near the city of Kushiro on 4.11.2006, in Ainu language festival "Itak=an ro" which took place in Samani on 11.11.2006 and in a lesson of Ainu languge in Ainu language school in Siraoi on 23.11.2006.

Everywhere conversation was in Japanese language only.

In Siranuka they didn't speak in Ainu they use Ainu language only when they prayed to kamuy. Though this ceremony was not performed for Japanese or for tourists, this was ceremony performed by Ainu for Ainu. And the most interesting and strange was that this fest was finished with karaoke, of course not in Ainu language.
I came there with Ota Mitsuru (Kamusokkai) he is one of the most advanced Ainu speaker. And we spoke in Ainu and some Ainu girls who were sitting near of us told us that they misunderstand English and that they should study English better.

Then I saw Ainu language festival "Itak=an ro" which took place in Samani on 11 of November.
What was it? It was much more strange than Sisyamo kamuy nomi.
Most of people came there in Ainu wear. But they didn't speak Ainu. All conversation was in Japanese. It was very strange for me. By the way, they came here specially to speak Ainu... Why don't they speak?
When the festival began I finally understood what they meant of "speaking":
all the people who were going "to say" something in Ainu got cards with numbers. And there were handouts where all the "speeches" were published with parralel translation in Japanese (specially for those who misunderstand Ainu language). And so called "speakers" got on the cathedra according to their numbers and just sang songs or recited Ainu poems looking at papers or at handouts.
During cafe brake I tried to explain to some people that there is a big difference between speaking and singing or reciting poetry, that speaking always means producing spontaneous utterances and singing songs looking at paper absolutely differs from speaking. For example, I don't know Chinese but I can get a Chinese text written in Latin alphabet and read it without understanding the meaning of words and Chinese grammar and it would be look like I can speak Chinese but it would not be speaking.
But everybody told me that it was difficult for them.
Really this festival it was a shock. I saw that Ainu people really don't speak Ainu language. I saw that they don't care about their language, they care about Ainu wearing, only about wearing.
But the most terrible thing for me was that they misunderstand the difference between singing and speaking. And even Japanese anthropologists who were there, for example Tamura Suzuko, also didn't see any difference. This is a great pity. Ainu may not see the difference but the anthropologists must see it as far as they are anthropologists. But may be they are not anthropologists?

Then I took participation in a lesson of Ainu language in Ainu language school in the Museum of Ainu Culture in Shiraoi. It was also a very strange thing: this was a lesson of Ainu but they speak only in Japanese.
It was right according to words of Ashizawa Ken'iti from Memorial Center of Shagushain in Shizunai who told me that "In these schools [Ainu language schools]They teach Ainu by Japanese".
They just wrote some phrases in Ainu and then discuss them in Japanese.
Nobody could speak Ainu there. Even the teacher of Ainu language can not speak it.
And then the question appears: "What language can such a teacher teachs? Japanese?"
I know that there are many ways of teaching but anyway if you are going to learn a language you should speak it. Otherwise it would be just a play but not a learning of a language.
When the lesson was finished I went out with a woman who also told me that here unfortunately nobody can speak Ainu. I told her that if you don't speak a language you are not able to learn it. She agreed but added that here there aren't anybody who can speak Ainu and so nobody can show us how to speak, nobody can teach us. It sounded very strange. When I learnt Ainu language I was absolutely alone. But I can speak it, though obviously there was nobody who could show me how to speak. The situation in the Ainu language school is obviously very strange. Of course I have seen just one but according to Ashizawa they all are the same. It seems that really these schools were organized in order to preserve any serious learning of Ainu.

Also should be noted that all Ainu texts which were used as materials of "Itak=an ro" festival or as materials for the Ainu language lesson and also Ainu newspaper "Aynu Times" written mostly in katakana and even somewhere Latin alphabet is used it is always followed by katakana but never opposite way.

On the first sight such an innocence fact is really a very dangerous thing because it negatively influences on Ainu language. The matter is the following: in Ainu language there are syllables of the following structures V, CV, VC, CVC. In Japanese syllables may have only the following structure: CV, CVn, CCV - consonant are the same.
When Ainu words are written in katakana all Ainu CVC syllables become CVCV structures: pirka becomes pirika ピリカ, mukkur becomes mukkuri/mukkuru - ムックリ / ムックル.
But now they sometimes use a special variant of katakana, where signs designating consonants are twice small than the main font:ペッ- pet. However this variant of katakana have been elaborated just nowadays and really they usually use usual katakana and so all Ainu VC syllables become VCV structures, and Ainu CVC syllables become CVCV structures.

If it would change just the phonotactics of Ainu - it would not be so dangerous. But we have to remember that Ainu words written in katakana become absolutely unclear from the morphological point of view. It is impossible to analyse such words, it is impossible to understand the meaning of these words, while when Ainu words are written in Latin alphabet morphemes bounds are absolutely clear and you can somehow understand the meaning of a word if you see of what morphemes it consists.
The following is a very characteristic example: itak=an ro means "let's speak", it consists of three morphemes: verbal root itak - "to speak", personal marker - 1pl., inclusive - =an and particle ro expressing invitation to do something together; when it is written in katakana, for example in the poster of this festival, it is: イタカンロ - it is absolutely evident that when such a way of recording is used the only what can be singled out from this word form is particle ro. And it is absolutely impossible to single out verbal root or personal marker. Also I think that here we also have an influence of Japanese tradition to write clitics connected with the nuclear member.
So now I think it is absolutely evident that if we record Ainu words in katakana it seriously block the analisys of word structure and real, it preservs the understanding of language structure and slowly step by step the real imagination of Ainu language structure disaappeares.
Finally it is a very unconvenient way of recording of Ainu words but the most strange is that Ainu themselves prefer to use katakana to record texts in Ainu.

All these events: (Sisyamo kamuy nomi ceremony, "Itak=an ro" festival and Ainu language lessons) were iniciated by the Utari organization. Thus, now it can be clearly seen that Utari Ainu can not speak Ainu.

Those who really can speak Ainu don't participate in any so called "Ainu organizations" or "Ainu movement". They have learnt Ainu by themselves without any grants of any foundations or any organizations.

I have met only two persons who can speak Ainu:

The first is Mark Mitsuru Ota (Kamusokkay) from the city of Akabira. He learnt Ainu when he had alreday become adult. He knows Ainu very well: can speak in different dialects and can use different styles of speech. But the most important is that he try to invent new terms and introduce new words in Ainu language for it would be able to express any subject of contemporary world.
When I just came to the island of Hokkaido he presented me his dictionary of Asahigawa dialect.
Also Kamusokkay well knows such a languages as: English, Russian, FRench and German; also he actively uses Internet.

The second one is Yamamichi Yasuko (Asin Rera) from Nibutani. She is not so adwanced as Kamusokkay, she knows only one dialect - Saru. She has a fluent command of Ainu and can speak in Ainu on any theme as well as Kamusokkay.

By the way mostl of those who treat themselves as Ainu know some Ainu words and expressions of everyday use, such as "hello" or "how are you" or sometimes even can speak on some not very difficult themes.

In this connexion, in order to estimate the number of those who really can speak, I would like to introduce the following scale of 6 levels of Ainu language speaking ability:

1 level - doesn't know even a word/ cannot speak Ainu absolutely (Kayano Shiro)
2 level - knows such expressions as "thank", "hello" "how are you", "see you" (most of Ainu I met)
3 level - knows many Ainu words and expressions, speaks in Japanese but introduces these Japanese words in the Japanese speech (Nomoto from Chitose)
4 level - can produce a monologue in Ainu on some simple themes: weather, self introduction/ limited knowledge of a dialect (Takano from Nibutani)
5 level - knows one dialect well, can freely speak on any theme (Asin Rera)
6 level - knows different dialects and different styles of speech (Kamusokkay)

I think that this scale permits us to make our estimation a bit more exact. Not just state: "speaks" or "can not speak" but permits to estimate the tendecy of development.

However, who can be treated as Ainu language speakers?
I think that all who has 5 and 6 levels should be treated as Ainu language speakers.

5. The Real Number of Ainu Language Speakers

Thus we have the following:
I have seen about 100 of Ainu and only 2 of them were able to speak Ainu language.
As far as it was a random hundred of Ainu I believe that it is possible to make extrapolation.

According to Kayano Shiro there are about 30.000 Ainu people, more exactly 30.000 of those who identify themselves as Ainu.
I have seen just a hundred of them and only 2 of this hundred can speak Ainu.
So it can be easily seen that the total number of Ainu speaker is about 600 people which is 2% of Ainu population.

Of course, this is just the first approach and of course it would be much better to detect all speakers but this would require much more time than 1 month, I think that about 2 or 3 years need to detect each of Ainu speakers.

6. Dangerous Conclusions

Of course 600 people is much better than 15 people of Ethnologue or 5 people of Murasaki. But if we look at percentage we understand that the situation is very pitiful. For example in such ethnicities as Basque or Eskimo speakers are about 60 - 80% of total number. Only such percentage can warrant the maintain and normal existance of language while 3% mean the death of language.
This is not only death of language but also death of culture.

What is culture in our times? What is culture in modern world? What does it mean "culture"? What we mean when we say the word "culture"?
Nowadays when globalization increases when anthropological differences between cultures disappear fast, when almost all cultures use the same technology what can be the basis for identification a person as a member of certain ethnic group? What can be the root the backbone of a certain cultural tradition?
In the case of Ainu we must not look at the anthropological types because of after centuries of intermarriage with Japanese Ainu mostly lost their original type. We must not look at those who perform so called "traditional Ainu rites" or wear Ainu wearing: most of "traditional Ainu rights" really were invented by Japanese in order to attract tourists (for example famous marimo rite or carving of bear figures).
Culture is not things, is not weraing. Culture is a way of thinking, way of behaiviour. And as far as way of thinking and way of behaviour are very well reflected by language so language is the main root of any culture.
According to Whorf if people use a certain language they adopt certain concepts, certain way of world view, certain way of thinking through this language. Language is the key and the backbone of any cultural traditions.
Because of it in the case of Ainu, I think, it is possible to state the following: really those who identify themselves as Ainu, wear Ainu wearing but cannot speak Ainu must not be treated as Ainu, only those who identify themselves as Ainu and can speak Ainu should be treated as Ainu.
So I think that the real number of Ainu is equal to the number of Ainu speakers.

And then: what is the role of Utari or Foundation for Reservation and Promotion of Ainu Culture? I think that now it can be clearly seen by everybody: the main aim of such organizations is to control Ainu culture. These organizations really are just the continuation of Japanese colonializm. The fact that they grant money to some Ainu just approves our conclusion: all colonial power always distinguish a group in any of colonized ethnicity and grant this group in order to manage control over this ethnicity by this group and in order to prevent any disturbance of their policy.

Those who really know language and can really speak it don't need any material support from any foundations or organizations to speak it. Those who can really speak don't need to organize strange festivals in order to speak.

All the efforts to preserve "traditional Ainu culture" such as museums, ethnographical settlings, festivals, and even such as "Iwor" project - a project of a special reservation where Ainu are supposed to live according to so called "traditional Ainu culture" in the wild nature together with animals for Japanese would be able to research them, all these items are just different kinds of theater.
Ainu are a part of Japanese society: Ainu use vending-machines, Ainu buy food in combinience stores, Ainu like karaoke and pachineseo. Moreover, we have to remember that sometimes contemporary Ainu know about their own culture much less than Japanese. Finally, it is hardly possible to manage traditional Ainu existance in contemporary Japan cause such a way of life requires a vast space of wild nature, which are obviously absent in contemporary Japan.
And also should be noted that in our times there are no traditional cultures, cause all so called minorities accept the products of Western civilization and develop their languages for they will be able to express all the subject of contemporary world.
So if sphere of Ainu language use is determined as a language of traditional culture only it is just a theater but not a usual use of language. It is not preservation at all. It is death of language and death of culture.

But if there are somebody who really cares about maintain and development of Ainu language and Ainu culture what measures can be recommended? What have to be done?
First we have to know that no one language can exist without a society cause any language is a social structure. So I think only autonomy can save Ainu language as well as any other human language. So if Japanese government really cares about maintain of Ainu language it has to think seriously about Ainu autonomy. This autonomy must not be such a project like "Iwor" or an "ethnographical settling" it should be such an autonomy where Ainu language would be used in normal everyday life: in a railway station, in a shop, in a bar et.c. So I think it would be better to make Ainu refuse their traditional culture and start to manage modern industry for they will beable to get money and an influence on contemporary Japan. Then having got money Ainu would be able to buy lands of their ancestors and it would be "Aynu Mosiri" which is so much spoken about, having got money Ainu would be able to set their own education system where they really will learn Ainu. I think if Japanese government really cares about Ainu it has to grant much more rights to Ainu people, to Ainu communities; also the status of Ainu language has to be changed. Really, I think, there is no need of an independent state but there obviously is a necessity of a wide autonomy inside of Japanese state.
But unfortunately Ainu themselves cannot understand it and also cannot do anything. They are so depraved that they cannot act. If they were Basque they have already got everything. But Ainu are not fighters. Unfortunately since long ago they aren't fighters. Now they cannot act. They misunderstand that if they don't act nobody acts instead of them. They are just like bear who sits in the cage and waits for candies. A bear who forget that he is a bear, that he can easily break the cage. All the contemporary Ainu culture is such a bear in cage.

(Chiba, December 2006)
wonda51
it is natural to lose their language because they do not have writing system.
what language is more convenient to express modern words
it may halp you about Ainu
it is a travel blog about northern Japan mainly Hokkaido around 1880
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2184
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Unbeaten-Tracks-Ja...s/dp/4990284801
wonda51
QUOTE
I think if Japanese government really cares about Ainu it has to grant much more rights to Ainu people, to Ainu communities; also the status of Ainu language has to be changed. Really, I think, there is no need of an independent state but there obviously is a necessity of a wide autonomy inside of Japanese state.
But unfortunately Ainu themselves cannot understand it and also cannot do anything


I dont think so at all.
it makes so many Evil practice

http://ansaikuropedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E...%B2%BB%E5%8C%BA
wonda51
blog @ ainupride.com
http://blog.ainupride.com/
she said "I did not want to be birth as ainu. however I came to be proud of Ainu."
she said " our ainu culture is to make fun ourselves as an ainu"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD8wJhK18zA...feature=related
Ainu's new identity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dgexEvTEjs...feature=related
I think ainu culture is not new in Japan. because there are many similar traditions in japan
their culture is one of Japanese primitive tradition
however, the Japanese welcome their culture because Japan is a drift of various culture
I want them a mainstream of Japanese cultre.
I hope revival of respectable Ainu culture

however, only Ainu's right is sometheing wrong though I praise them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyTGlEcAze4
okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 04:31 AM) [snapback]4179396[/snapback]
it is natural to lose their language because they do not have writing system.


very doubtful statement. who said this? >:-(
really modern Ainu people have been using at least two writing systems for alredy about 150 years.
okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 04:38 AM) [snapback]4179415[/snapback]
I dont think so at all.
it makes so many Evil practice

http://ansaikuropedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A2%E...%B2%BB%E5%8C%BA


of course, I meant that Japanese government doesn't care about Ainu at all. I think that it can be understand from the common context of my report.
wonda51
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 28 2009, 01:49 AM) [snapback]4179809[/snapback]
very doubtful statement. who said this? >:-(
really modern Ainu people have been using at least two writing systems for alredy about 150 years.


what is two writing system?
okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 05:26 AM) [snapback]4179458[/snapback]
I think ainu culture is not new in Japan. because there are many similar traditions in japan
their culture is one of Japanese primitive tradition


Ainu culture is about 15 thousand years 'cause Jomon culture was Ainu really culture. Of course it isn't "new in Japan" lol
okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 10:03 AM) [snapback]4179820[/snapback]
what is two writing system?


katakana and latin alphabet. well, by the way, did you read my report? I mentioned these writing systems in it.
wonda51
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 28 2009, 01:53 AM) [snapback]4179811[/snapback]
of course, I meant that Japanese government doesn't care about Ainu at all. I think that it can be understand from the common context of my report.



you mean " Japan should do apartheid"
Ainu is not just native people like indian in USA or aboriginal in Australia
that is why 50% of the Japanese have D2 chromosome like ainu ppl
okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 10:12 AM) [snapback]4179827[/snapback]
Japan never did apartheid.


what?!!???

QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 10:12 AM) [snapback]4179827[/snapback]
Ainu is not just native people like indian in USA or aboriginal in Australia


since 3 century Ainu and Wa people have been always struggling
since 15 century Ainu have been undergone fierce japonization and henocide as well as Indians or Australian aborigenes.
wonda51
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 28 2009, 02:19 AM) [snapback]4179835[/snapback]
what?!!???
since 3 century Ainu and Wa people have been always struggling
since 15 century Ainu have been undergone fierce japonization and henocide as well as Indians or Australian aborigenes.


Ainu ppl were Just isolated in hokkaido as a native ppl
There is always a regional struggle for power.
in mailand, the Japanese were mixed.
Emishi was also Ainu ppl.
that is why there are some place in Ainu language even in mailand
wonda51
Emish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emishi

I think 1000 years is long time...
even WA ppl was Jomon ppl like Emishi.
Yamato ppl were just early to mixed for more than 1000 years

do you know the meaning of " 50% of Japanese have D2chromosome like ainu ppl "
it is not just the Jomon ppl mixed with Yayoi ppl.
it means Jomon ppl ruled Yayoi ppl
I just feel the distance of a few thouthands at them that we were divided
okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 10:37 AM) [snapback]4179847[/snapback]
Ainu ppl were Just isolated in hokkaido as a native ppl
There is always a regional struggle for power.
in mailand, the Japanese were mixed.
Emishi was also Ainu ppl.


Ainu and Japanese have been intermarriaging for ages so there is nothing wonderful that "50% of the Japanese have D2 chromosome like ainu ppl". Ainu and Japanese mixed much more than Indians and the White or Australian and the White. But Ainu are absolutely separated ethnic group. Originally they didn't have any common features with Wa people.

Jomon (Ainu) man:


Yayoi (Wa) man:

okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 10:49 AM) [snapback]4179856[/snapback]
Emish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emishi

I think 1000 years is long time...
even WA ppl was Jomon ppl like Emishi.
Yamato ppl were just early to mixed for more than 1000 years


they mixed more than 1000 years.

Wa people have never looked like Jomon they always have been looking like Yayoi

QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 10:49 AM) [snapback]4179856[/snapback]
do you know the meaning of " 50% of Japanese have D2chromosome like ainu ppl "
it is not just the Jomon ppl mixed with Yayoi ppl.
it means Jomon ppl ruled Yayoi ppl


almost all of military of Yamato state were Ainu and most of samurai also have Ainu origin, of course, they ruled. ;-)

P.S. unfortunately right now I have to go, but later I tell you more about Jomon about Wa people and about the formation of Japanese ethnicity.
wonda51
[quote name='okikurumi' date='Mar 28 2009, 03:07 AM' post='4179863']
Ainu and Japanese have been intermarriaging for ages so there is nothing wonderful that "50% of the Japanese have D2 chromosome like ainu ppl". Ainu and Japanese mixed much more than Indians and the White or Australian and the White. But Ainu are absolutely separated ethnic group. Originally they didn't have any common features with Wa people.

If you watch the Japanese carefuly, you can see the 3 parson in 10ppl looks ainu
If the Japanese doesn't shave the beard, the half of them looks like Ainu


he was famous Ainu.
however, there many ppls who looks like him around me
in case of hokkaido, They live in the same place in town. that is why you can distinguish..
no one can recognize that he is ainu in tokyo if they shave the beard
wonda51
http://www.oniazuma.com/2008/01/i-am-ainu.html

they can hide easily
wonda51
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 28 2009, 03:07 AM) [snapback]4179863[/snapback]
Ainu and Japanese have been intermarriaging for ages so there is nothing wonderful that "50% of the Japanese have D2 chromosome like ainu ppl". Ainu and Japanese mixed much more than Indians and the White or Australian and the White. But Ainu are absolutely separated ethnic group. Originally they didn't have any common features with Wa people.

Jomon (Ainu) man:


Yayoi (Wa) man:


who has D2 in the world?
Wa ppl was mixed.
so waht is mixed Japanese american identity?
they are absolutely separated ethnic group.
however, they can not say i am a Japanese?

>>>Originally they didn't have any common features with Wa people.
nop. this pics show nothing
it shows only typical one



huntermoguh
Ainu are distinct from Japanese. They have distinct features, that distinguish themselves with the Okinawans and Mainland Japanese. Japanese are mostly D2, O3, and O2b1a whereas Ainu are mostly D2 and C3. Ainu are mostly mtDNA Y and Japanese are mostly mtDNA D, B, F, etc.

2009 East Asia PCA Genetic plot- 1million genetic markers- most used in any research yet (each dot is a different person and color is ethnic group)


Japanese are closer to Han Chinese. If Koreans were added, then Japanese would possibly be closer to Korean. Korean would fill the gap between Japanese, Northern Han, Xibe and Hezhe (around the Mongola). The plot tells us that Japanese are basically an Eastern variant of Northern Han Chinese.




Mainland Japanese don't look Korean either. Rather they look like a mix of Korean and Chinese and sometimes a bit of Jomon. I have seen some Japanese who look very Korean though, but not many.

People such as the Emperor of Japan display maximum Yayoi traits. The first emperor of Japan (around 600 BC) was from Northern Kyushu, which is closest to the Korean peninsula.
wonda51
QUOTE
People such as the Emperor of Japan display maximum Yayoi traits. The first emperor of Japan (around 600 BC) was from Northern Kyushu, which is closest to the Korean peninsula.



Yayoi era was about from BC 2000
they say about 1,000,000ppl came to Japan for 3000years
it mean it was less than Max1000ppl/ year

there are two methods about genetic similarities...
one is Mitochondrial DNA. ... female lineage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA
the other one is Y Chromosome.... father lineage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome


Y Chromosome D2
a half(46~56%) of the Japanese have D2


the korean and the Japanese are very simillar...( that is,matrilineal. mother lineage)
korean is more similar with ainu than the Japanese

Y Chromosome father lineage(paternal line)
korean does not have D2 Chromosome
korean and the Japanese are quite different because of D(Yap+)
most okinawan and Ainu have D(Yap+)
Why is it so similar by the method of mitochondria, and is it very different by the method of the chromosome?
only women came to Japan as Yayoi?
As for the movement in the group, men sould be more numerous

After the 16th century, present Latin American nations were conquered by Spain and Portugal. It is chiefly men that came.
As a result, there are a lot of Y chromosomes of the Caucasian lineage in Latin American nations.
However,The Caucasian origin is few by mitochondria method
most of type is native ppl'

so are polynasia, Guam....
Aryan (one race of Caucasian) invaded India from Central Asia 3000 years or more ago, and the upper layer hierarchy was formed for India.
As a result, there are many patrilineal more than the matrilineal...

what does it indicate?
86% of Ainu have a D2 that korean does not have.
however, Korean is similar with Ainu by Mitochondrial DNA more than mainland Japanese.
it was already found that Ainu , indonesian and Malaysian , They are the closest on Mitochondrial DNA.
and, south american , American Indian ,ainu and the Japanese are so close
so is korean

in ancient time, As for the movement, the man was more abundant.
And, it was necessary to conquer.
Yayoi might be accepted calmly basically in Japan.
Jomon ppl were small group at that time
However, the Japanese of 50% has a D2chromosome.
Do you know how small number of people become it in general?
That is way there is a question about "Yayoi ppl were all famale?"

it means Jomon ppl as upper classes in society ruled Yayoi ppl in Japan
This also proves the thing that the Jomon people had a considerable technology though we were taught in schhol that Yayoi ppl were dominant

who is the Yayoi ppl?
they might be come from around Yangtze River with rice that was defeated by Yellow River civilization .
So is Korean's O2b

anyway D2 were dominant in Japan
if yayoi ppl were dominant in society like Emperor or ruler, D2 woud alredy be vanished.
D2 could not be dominant.
it means emperor or Japanese rulers have D2.
It is impossible other than a this pattern







http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/kenmei2003kn.../3/f3f45df7.jpg

http://sports.geocities.jp/ssc2006jp/_gl_i...7allscitecs.JPG



 
truthstilltruth


[/quote]

I found an interesting thing the distance between japanese/chinese(those sino-tibetan speakers) are even less than those altaic themselves? confused.gif
wonda51


in 2007.
Investigation to Ainu about discrimination
1)I received discrimination. 2.1%
2) I was not discriminated. but I know some were discriminated 1.1%
3) I was never discriminated 72.3%
4) I dont know. and no answer

okikurumi
I can tell you that when you move more northward or southward from Tokyo there appear more Ainu/Jomon features and less Yayoi features. Ainu and Okinawan are closely connected types and they both differ seriously from mainland Japanese type.
okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 03:00 PM) [snapback]4180025[/snapback]
Yayoi era was about from BC 2000


that's wrong. Yayoi began about 500 BC.

QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 03:00 PM) [snapback]4180025[/snapback]
there are two methods about genetic similarities...
one is Mitochondrial DNA. ... female lineage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA
the other one is Y Chromosome.... father lineage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome
Y Chromosome D2
a half(46~56%) of the Japanese have D2

the korean and the Japanese are very simillar...( that is,matrilineal. mother lineage)
korean is more similar with ainu than the Japanese

Y Chromosome father lineage(paternal line)
korean does not have D2 Chromosome
korean and the Japanese are quite different because of D(Yap+)
most okinawan and Ainu have D(Yap+)
Why is it so similar by the method of mitochondria, and is it very different by the method of the chromosome?
only women came to Japan as Yayoi?
As for the movement in the group, men sould be more numerous

After the 16th century, present Latin American nations were conquered by Spain and Portugal. It is chiefly men that came.
As a result, there are a lot of Y chromosomes of the Caucasian lineage in Latin American nations.
However,The Caucasian origin is few by mitochondria method
most of type is native ppl'

so are polynasia, Guam....
Aryan (one race of Caucasian) invaded India from Central Asia 3000 years or more ago, and the upper layer hierarchy was formed for India.
As a result, there are many patrilineal more than the matrilineal...

what does it indicate?
86% of Ainu have a D2 that korean does not have.
however, Korean is similar with Ainu by Mitochondrial DNA more than mainland Japanese.
it was already found that Ainu , indonesian and Malaysian , They are the closest on Mitochondrial DNA.
and, south american , American Indian ,ainu and the Japanese are so close
so is korean

in ancient time, As for the movement, the man was more abundant.
And, it was necessary to conquer.
Yayoi might be accepted calmly basically in Japan.
Jomon ppl were small group at that time
However, the Japanese of 50% has a D2chromosome.
Do you know how small number of people become it in general?
That is way there is a question about "Yayoi ppl were all famale?"

it means Jomon ppl as upper classes in society ruled Yayoi ppl in Japan
This also proves the thing that the Jomon people had a considerable technology though we were taught in schhol that Yayoi ppl were dominant

who is the Yayoi ppl?
they might be come from around Yangtze River with rice that was defeated by Yellow River civilization .
So is Korean's O2b

anyway D2 were dominant in Japan
if yayoi ppl were dominant in society like Emperor or ruler, D2 woud alredy be vanished.
D2 could not be dominant.
it means emperor or Japanese rulers have D2.
It is impossible other than a this pattern


it means the only thing: DNA data cannot be a relevant criteria by itself.
okikurumi
QUOTE
what does it indicate?
86% of Ainu have a D2 that korean does not have.
however, Korean is similar with Ainu by Mitochondrial DNA more than mainland Japanese.


that indicates the following: Ainu people took Korean women as wives. (first Korean migrants started to appear in Japan in the beginning of Yayoi) that's why Ainu and Korean has similar Mitochondrial DNA but differ in Y Chromosome.
okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 28 2009, 12:32 PM) [snapback]4179922[/snapback]
who has D2 in the world?
Wa ppl was mixed.
so waht is mixed Japanese american identity?
they are absolutely separated ethnic group.
however, they can not say i am a Japanese?

>>>Originally they didn't have any common features with Wa people.
nop. this pics show nothing
it shows only typical one


these pictures are not fantasy, they represent the result of comparison reserach of many crania, and these pictures represent average type of Jomon and Yayoi man accordingly.
okikurumi
QUOTE
who is the Yayoi ppl?
they might be come from around Yangtze River with rice that was defeated by Yellow River civilization .


while Jomon culture is identified as Ainu culture, Kofun - as an Altaic (Korean) culture, Yayoi is a bit enigmatic 'cause it is not yet definitely identified with an ethnic group, though I believe that Yayoi was culture of Austronesian people who came from Southern China in the Late Jomon. These Austronesian brought rice agriculture and due to this they set in the Southern part of Japanese archipelago.
okikurumi
QUOTE
it means Jomon ppl as upper classes in society ruled Yayoi ppl in Japan
This also proves the thing that the Jomon people had a considerable technology though we were taught in schhol that Yayoi ppl were dominant


I think that the situation can be a bit more difficult. Really Yayoi people brought a more advanced culture than Jomon people had but Jomon people were much more brutal and warlike and so Yayoi people were ruled by Jomon people.
okikurumi
QUOTE
anyway D2 were dominant in Japan
if yayoi ppl were dominant in society like Emperor or ruler, D2 woud alredy be vanished.
D2 could not be dominant.
it means emperor or Japanese rulers have D2.
It is impossible other than a this pattern


just image the following: in the beginning of our era a group of Korean went to the Japanese archipelago. the archipelago is inhabited by some groups of Austronesian and Ainu. Austronesian are peaceful but Ainu are very warlike fierce and dangerous. there are a lot of them. in order to secure his people the chief of Korean decided to become a relative with an Ainu group. Korean chief has beautiful daughter and he wanted his daughter marry the main Ainu chief for his son-in-law can protect him from other Ainu bands. Ainu chief also has his own iterest: the daughter of Korean chief is much more attractive than Ainu women. moreover Korean people brought such a technologies which Ainu don't know but using which he can easily coquer other Ainu groups. thus the most brutal Ainu chief marries the most beautiful and educated Korean princess. their son becomes tenno. and he has D2 Y chromosome and Korean Mitochondrial DNA.
wonda51
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 28 2009, 04:31 PM) [snapback]4180449[/snapback]
I can tell you that when you move more northward or southward from Tokyo there appear more Ainu/Jomon features and less Yayoi features. Ainu and Okinawan are closely connected types and they both differ seriously from mainland Japanese type.


I can tell you if you go to kyusyu, you see less yayoi features
wonda51
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 28 2009, 05:53 PM) [snapback]4180539[/snapback]
just image the following: in the beginning of our era a group of Korean went to the Japanese archipelago. the archipelago is inhabited by some groups of Austronesian and Ainu. Austronesian are peaceful but Ainu are very warlike fierce and dangerous. there are a lot of them. in order to secure his people the chief of Korean decided to become a relative with an Ainu group. Korean chief has beautiful daughter and he wanted his daughter marry the main Ainu chief for his son-in-law can protect him from other Ainu bands. Ainu chief also has his own iterest: the daughter of Korean chief is much more attractive than Ainu women. moreover Korean people brought such a technologies which Ainu don't know but using which he can easily coquer other Ainu groups. thus the most brutal Ainu chief marries the most beautiful and educated Korean princess. their son becomes tenno. and he has D2 Y chromosome and Korean Mitochondrial DNA.


ah? please give me a such doccument?
you mean korean women was raped?
who was their son?
hahah
so ainu is a austronesian lineage?

is this what ainu people looks like? i havent met too many japanese who look like this

okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 29 2009, 02:05 AM) [snapback]4180546[/snapback]
ah? please give me a such doccument?


we don't know such documents. but we have a lot of data corroborate the facts I am speaking about.

QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 29 2009, 02:05 AM) [snapback]4180546[/snapback]
you mean korean women was reaped?


raped or not raped it doesn't matter. in those times they can have slitly different moral norms. don't you think?

QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 29 2009, 02:05 AM) [snapback]4180546[/snapback]
who was their son?


tenno. or, a bit more exacly, man who was the ancestor of so called tenno clan.
okikurumi
QUOTE(hahah @ Mar 29 2009, 03:43 AM) [snapback]4180558[/snapback]
so ainu is a austronesian lineage?


no. Ainu don't have any relationship with Austronesian. Ainu are relatives of Jomon people i.e. Ainu.
the situation of Ainu anthropology is the the same as that of Ainu language: Ainu language is an isolated one and Ainu ethnicity as well.

QUOTE(hahah @ Mar 29 2009, 03:43 AM) [snapback]4180558[/snapback]
is this what ainu people looks like? i havent met too many japanese who look like this


although...


these people are Ainu.
Yinheidi
QUOTE(truthstilltruth @ Mar 28 2009, 08:32 AM) [snapback]4180048[/snapback]

I found an interesting thing the distance between japanese/chinese(those sino-tibetan speakers) are even less than those altaic themselves? confused.gif


Why would you be surprised. Language diffusion correlates with genetic diffusion but it is NOT analogous. Take Asians in America, for example - you all know English and your descendants will likely, gradually begin to speak English as a first language. That doesn't mean you have the same genetic ancestry as English people. Altaic is a very broad language group that spans most of North and Central Asia. It was diverse historically and it is even more diverse today due to nomadic expansions during the last two millenia. It's somewhat like Indo-European, in this regard, which is another one of those really broad language groups that span vast expanses in terms of genetic populations.

Also, Japanese are only loosely classified as Altaic, perhaps indicating the large degree of non-Altaic influence.
okikurumi
QUOTE(Yinheidi @ Mar 29 2009, 03:54 AM) [snapback]4180565[/snapback]
Also, Japanese are only loosely classified as Altaic, perhaps indicating the large degree of non-Altaic influence.


Japanese is a close relative of Korean, and Korean is a relative of Manchurian Group which is relative of Mongol and Mongol is relative of Turk, so Japanese is obviously an Altaic.

but really Japanese formed as a creole: Altaic grammar + Austronesian phonology and a bit Austronesian lexis.
Japanese has more simple structure than Korean due to creolisation process.
wonda51
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 28 2009, 07:05 PM) [snapback]4180577[/snapback]
Japanese is a close relative of Korean, and Korean is a relative of Manchurian Group which is relative of Mongol and Mongol is relative of Turk, so Japanese is obviously an Altaic.

but really Japanese formed as a creole: Altaic grammar + Austronesian phonology and a bit Austronesian lexis.
Japanese has more simple structure than Korean due to creolisation process.


altaic grammar is natural thing without any relation because of primitive
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/06...-of-langua.html
indo-european language is abnormal
okikurumi
QUOTE(wonda51 @ Mar 29 2009, 03:05 AM) [snapback]4180546[/snapback]
ah? please give me a such doccument?


though, why not?!
of course, we don't have a document with the following: "this Korean princess married this Ainu chief"
but we can met a lot of highly ranked people with Ainu names in "Kojiki", in "Nihon shoki", in "魏志倭人伝".
Yinheidi
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 28 2009, 08:05 PM) [snapback]4180577[/snapback]
Japanese is a close relative of Korean, and Korean is a relative of Manchurian Group which is relative of Mongol and Mongol is relative of Turk, so Japanese is obviously an Altaic.

but really Japanese formed as a creole: Altaic grammar + Austronesian phonology and a bit Austronesian lexis.
Japanese has more simple structure than Korean due to creolisation process.


Erm, it doesn't work that way.

Languages can spread by more than genetic relationship. Generally, there are three impetuses for linguistic adoption:

1. Ancestry

2. Education (Politics)

3. Trade/Practicality

#1 is obvious - your parents will generally try to pass their native language to you. #2 is a matter of politics and state policy, which determines the language you're educated in, regardless of your ancestry. #3 is a matter of personal choice - ie you, or your parents, might decide that you should learn a different language because it is more practical and useful.

All three factors combine to determine the linguistic landscape of the world. It isn't just genetic diffusion. Two people can be in the same language group without sharing close genetic affinity.
manko
QUOTE(hahah @ Mar 28 2009, 07:43 PM) [snapback]4180558[/snapback]
so ainu is a austronesian lineage?

is this what ainu people looks like? i havent met too many japanese who look like this



That's because most of them shave and get haircuts like any modernized human being does.
wonda51
typical japanese homeless

truthstilltruth
QUOTE(Yinheidi @ Mar 28 2009, 06:54 PM) [snapback]4180565[/snapback]
Why would you be surprised. Language diffusion correlates with genetic diffusion but it is NOT analogous. Take Asians in America, for example - you all know English and your descendants will likely, gradually begin to speak English as a first language. That doesn't mean you have the same genetic ancestry as English people. Altaic is a very broad language group that spans most of North and Central Asia. It was diverse historically and it is even more diverse today due to nomadic expansions during the last two millenia. It's somewhat like Indo-European, in this regard, which is another one of those really broad language groups that span vast expanses in terms of genetic populations.

Also, Japanese are only loosely classified as Altaic, perhaps indicating the large degree of non-Altaic influence.

both korean/japanese belong to isolated language or Controversial language now.
okikurumi
QUOTE(truthstilltruth @ Mar 29 2009, 09:41 AM) [snapback]4180837[/snapback]
both korean/japanese belong to isolated language or Controversial language now.


no, they both are part of a group of Altaic family.
okikurumi
QUOTE(Yinheidi @ Mar 29 2009, 04:34 AM) [snapback]4180609[/snapback]
Erm, it doesn't work that way.

Languages can spread by more than genetic relationship. Generally, there are three impetuses for linguistic adoption:

1. Ancestry

2. Education (Politics)

3. Trade/Practicality

#1 is obvious - your parents will generally try to pass their native language to you. #2 is a matter of politics and state policy, which determines the language you're educated in, regardless of your ancestry. #3 is a matter of personal choice - ie you, or your parents, might decide that you should learn a different language because it is more practical and useful.

All three factors combine to determine the linguistic landscape of the world. It isn't just genetic diffusion. Two people can be in the same language group without sharing close genetic affinity.


anyway language difference have to be correlated with genetic difference and vice versa.
truthstilltruth
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 29 2009, 08:33 AM) [snapback]4181093[/snapback]
no, they both are part of a group of Altaic family.

how many linguists accept that?more than half of the world linguists? embarassedlaugh.gif
btw now linguists think words correspondence is more important than grammar correspondence. So now a lot of linguists even doubt whether the altaic family exist. because their core words are lack of correspondence. embarassedlaugh.gif
okikurumi
QUOTE(truthstilltruth @ Mar 29 2009, 05:45 PM) [snapback]4181098[/snapback]
how many linguists accept that?more than half of the world linguists? embarassedlaugh.gif
btw now linguists think words correspondence is more important than grammar correspondence. So now a lot of linguists even doubt whether the altaic family exist. because their core words are lack of correspondence. embarassedlaugh.gif


some linguists accept Altaic theory.

you r a bit out of base. lexis is the most changable level of language while structure is the most stable. so if we are speaking about genetic relationship of some two or more languages and we are going to prove that they are relatives we have first analyze the structure the grammar and only if we caught some systematic symylarities of structures we can turn to the comparison of lexis.
truthstilltruth
QUOTE(okikurumi @ Mar 29 2009, 08:57 AM) [snapback]4181104[/snapback]
some linguists accept Altaic theory.

you r a bit out of base. lexis is the most changable level of language while structure is the most stable. so if we are speaking about genetic relationship of some two or more languages and we are going to prove that their are relatives we have first analyze the structure the grammar and only if we caught some systematic symylarities of structures we can turn to the comparison of lexis.

Some? Ok then we can end this discussion.Just like I known only part linguists accepted this opinion. So I use the word argumentative language.
According to the Linguistics, grammar is not very important, because different language can form similiar grammar. There are more specific feature to group two different language into one family. For example tonal or non-tonal, or some very special linguistic feature like whether there is classified words.Of course the most reliable evidence is the basic words' correspondence. Although a language may borrow words from its neighbours ,but it can only change the mid-class/high-class vocabulary while the basic/low-class vocabulary is hard to change.
Well, u may claim both korean/japanese belong to agglutinative language so then the two language may be classified as an altaic language. but do remember austronesian family are also very agglutinative. embarassedlaugh.gif
okikurumi
QUOTE(truthstilltruth @ Mar 29 2009, 06:10 PM) [snapback]4181109[/snapback]
According to the Linguistics, grammar is not very important, because different language can form similiar grammar.


I am a linguist. And according to me different languages of course can form some similar features but if these two languages are relatives there should be certain similar structures.

QUOTE(truthstilltruth @ Mar 29 2009, 06:10 PM) [snapback]4181109[/snapback]
There are more specific feature to group two different language into one family. For example tonal or non-tonal, or some very special linguistic feature like whether there is classified words.Of course the most reliable evidence is the basic words' correspondence. Although a language may borrow words from its neighbours ,but it can only change the mid-class/high-class vocabulary while the basic/low-class vocabulary is hard to change.


Swadesh himself wrote that list of basic words cannot be used to prove the genetic relationship or to prove the absence of it. this list can be used only if we have two wittingly relatives and we are going to estimate the time of their divergetion.
moreover, term "basic lexis" is a nonesence 'cause this lexis changes as well as so called "cultural lexis" and really there aren't basic lexis or cultural lexis. all lexis is cultural.

QUOTE(truthstilltruth @ Mar 29 2009, 06:10 PM) [snapback]4181109[/snapback]
Well, u may claim both korean/japanese belong to agglutinative language so then the two language may be classified as an altaic language. but do remember austronesian family are also very agglutinative. embarassedlaugh.gif


oh shi... most languages of the world are agglutinative. for example Basque, Finnish, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Turkish, Eskimo, Maori, Hawaian, Chukchi, Itelmen, Nivkh, Ainu - all they use agglutination as morphemes bind technique, but they are different languages belonging to different stocks.
agglutination is so widely spread that it's impossible to make this parameter the base of classification. moreover classification can never be based in just a single parameter.
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