Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Family holds document about Paracel Islands
Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Asian Culture > Vietnamese Chat
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Nympha
Apr 7 2009, 04:13 AM
Family holds document about Paracel Islands
16:05' 07/04/2009 (GMT+7)

VietNamNet Bridge For nearly 200 years, generations of the Dang family on Ly Son Island, the central province of Quang Ngai, have maintained an ancient document that proves Vietnams sovereignty over the Hoang Sa (Paracel) Islands.

This document has been the heirloom of my family for 174 years, said Mr. Dang Lien, 68, in Dong Ho hamlet, An Hai commune, Ly Son district.



Lien opened the draw of the altar cabinet, carefully took out a small wood box, put it on the table and took out the ancient document. Nguyen Hien Dat, 76, translated the document.



This ancient document is a summons to send a group of three boats, with eight soldiers each, to transport weapons and food to the Paracel Islands on April 15, 1835, Dat said.



Len recalled: Around six generations ago, my ancestor was an excellent soldier. The King sent him and some local people to the Paracel Islands to protect the island by issuing the royal ordinance or the above document.



Len remembered that his family received that ancient document nearly 50 years ago. Only the head of the family and the first paternal grandson knew exactly the contents of that document and where it was preserved.



This year, while I was burning incense, I felt something strange that told me to take this ancient document out, to make three copies one for me, one for Mr. Tam and one for my nephew Dang Van Thanh, Len said.



The Dang family knew that this was a valuable document but they didnt know its real value. Dang Van Thanh took it to Dr. Nguyen Dang Vu, Deputy Director of the Department of Culture, Sports and Tourism of Quang Ngai province, who is researcher of the history and culture and Ly Son Island district.



This ancient document is the royal ordinance of the Nguyen Dynasty, which was related to the army team that protected the Paracel Islands. This is one more piece of evidence proving that the Paracel Islands belong to Vietnam. Some families on the island have provided many documents for state agencies related to the Paracel Islands but they have been only copies. Only the document of Mr. Dangs family is an original, Dr. Nguyen Dang Vu said.



According to the translation by Mr. Nguyen Hien Dat, the document has a paragraph like this: The court commissions Mr. Vo Van Hung in Ly Son to recruit young men who are good at martial arts and swimming for the boat team; Mr. Dang Van Siem (who belonged to the Dang family) to guide the team; and Mr. Vo Van Cong to be in charge of food



According to Dr. Nguyen Dang Vu, other historical documents dont say much about the organisation of the Paracel Islands team, but this document has valuable information about this issue.



The court commands three boats, with eight soldiers each, with food and weapons to go the islands in February and March. This explains why Ly Son Island organises the troop banquet ceremony in February and March.



The ancient document of the Dang family and other materials that we have prove that sending troops to the Paracel Islands was an annual job of the feudal courts of Vietnam from the grassroots to the central level to protect Vietnams sovereignty of the islands. The document is evidence to prove that the Paracel Islands belong to Vietnam, Dr. Vu confirmed.



VietNamNet/TP

Vietnam has so many evidences that prove Vietnams sovereignity over the paracel islands. beerchug.gif
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 11:22 AM
yeah and Japanese can prove they always lived in the Kuriles

ho chi minh promised the islands to us in 1958, because china is what made vietnam even possible. should you just change your mind after you don't need us anymore? shifty.gif
SoCal
Apr 7 2009, 12:03 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 09:22 AM) [snapback]4191060[/snapback]
yeah and Japanese can prove they always lived in the Kuriles

ho chi minh promised the islands to us in 1958, because china is what made vietnam even possible. should you just change your mind after you don't need us anymore? shifty.gif




Let all sides present the evidences.
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 12:15 PM
china is always too soft and too gentle compared to other powers. Imagine in 1973, if China invited North Vietnam to sit down and settle the complete future border of Vietnam, you think those islands wouldn't be in Chinese hands today?

Chinese saw you as friend and didn't treat you that way. To our tragedy, not everyone has the same idea about a relationship.
XigonCongchua
Apr 7 2009, 12:17 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 09:22 AM) [snapback]4191060[/snapback]
yeah and Japanese can prove they always lived in the Kuriles

ho chi minh promised the islands to us in 1958, because china is what made vietnam even possible. should you just change your mind after you don't need us anymore? shifty.gif

1. China took that island by force in 1974 when Northern and Southern Vietnamese were too occupied with the Vietnam War and neglect those islands.

2. China never really helped Vietnam on anything. It did much more harm than benefit to the nation of Vietnam. The Vietnamese stood and fought foreigners on their own. Yea yea I knew they got some supply from Russia and China but that amount of supply meant nothing compared to what the people of Vietnam had to sacrifice. Vietnamese people are known to be every enduring people with great determination. They could still defeat the French and the US without any help from China. China's supply to North Vietnam wasn't much and besides, China did it for itself, not for Vietnam. Also look at what horrible things China did to Vietnam in the two Sino-Viet war in 1979 and 1985 and you'll see the great damage they did to Vietnam far outweighed the little supply that they sent to Vietnam during the Vietnam War.
Kaosq
Apr 7 2009, 12:17 PM
Are you serious??? We sent 24 soldiers?!?!?
SoCal
Apr 7 2009, 12:18 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 10:15 AM) [snapback]4191093[/snapback]
china is always too soft and too gentle compared to other powers. Imagine in 1973, if China invited North Vietnam to sit down and settle the complete future border of Vietnam, you think those islands wouldn't be in Chinese hands today?

Chinese saw you as friend and didn't treat you that way. To our tragedy, not everyone has the same idea about a relationship.



I understand that each side has the own reasons. China is no angel neither.
XigonCongchua
Apr 7 2009, 12:18 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 10:15 AM) [snapback]4191093[/snapback]
china is always too soft and too gentle compared to other powers. Imagine in 1973, if China invited North Vietnam to sit down and settle the complete future border of Vietnam, you think those islands wouldn't be in Chinese hands today?

Chinese saw you as friend and didn't treat you that way. To our tragedy, not everyone has the same idea about a relationship.

pukeface.gif too many chinese here are hypocrites
Kaosq
Apr 7 2009, 12:24 PM
Btw, wasn't there a thread like this before? In Vietnamese though.
Daozimo
Apr 7 2009, 12:25 PM
These islands are equidistant from the coasts of China and Vietnam, and are uninhabited. There is no reason to fight over this. The islands should be shared.
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 12:26 PM
every rifle, cannon, bullet and shell at Dien Bien Phu was chinese.
SoCal
Apr 7 2009, 12:36 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 10:26 AM) [snapback]4191103[/snapback]
every rifle, cannon, bullet and shell at Dien Bien Phu was chinese.



How much did China take from Vietnam during 1407-1427 and over 1,000 years of Sinocization?
Legion
Apr 7 2009, 12:45 PM
^they take more than they give, that's for sure. Anyways, its just politics, they take when they needed to...they support us when it supports thier interest, not out of compassion or caring. Observe:


QUOTE
September 13, 1945 - British forces arrive in Saigon, South Vietnam.

In North Vietnam, 150,000 Chinese Nationalist soldiers, consisting mainly of poor peasants, arrive in Hanoi after looting Vietnamese villages during their entire march down from China. They then proceed to loot Hanoi.



QUOTE
January 1950 - The People's Republic of China and the Soviet Union recognize Ho Chi Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

China then begins sending military advisors and modern weapons to the Viet Minh including automatic weapons, mortars, howitzers, and trucks. Much of the equipment is American-made and had belonged to the Chinese Nationalists before their defeat by Mao. With the influx of new equipment and Chinese advisors, General Giap transforms his guerrilla fighters into conventional army units including five light infantry divisions and one heavy division.


http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/v...index-1945.html

BTW. Vietnamese already have these weapons seized from the French. You've said every single weapon, bullets, and mortar is an exaggeration. Get off your damn high horse, and get in touch with reality.
FinestAsian
Apr 7 2009, 12:57 PM
QUOTE(Legion @ Apr 7 2009, 12:45 PM) [snapback]4191114[/snapback]
^they take more than they give, that's for sure. Anyways, its just politics, they take when they needed to...they support us when it supports thier interest, not out of compassion or caring. Observe:
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/v...index-1945.html

BTW. Vietnamese already have these weapons seized from the French. You've said every single weapon, bullets, and mortar is an exaggeration. Get off your damn high horse, and get in touch with reality.

Agree +1. Thanks for posting. I've been so busy and didn't have chance to educate these people nowaday. It's good to see somebody still take time to do this.
Daozimo
Apr 7 2009, 01:06 PM
QUOTE(Legion @ Apr 7 2009, 01:45 PM) [snapback]4191114[/snapback]
^they take more than they give, that's for sure. Anyways, its just politics, they take when they needed to...they support us when it supports thier interest, not out of compassion or caring. Observe:
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/v...index-1945.html

BTW. Vietnamese already have these weapons seized from the French. You've said every single weapon, bullets, and mortar is an exaggeration. Get off your damn high horse, and get in touch with reality.


You are probably right.

However, I should note that the Chinese Nationalists and the Chinese Communists are two different factions, entirely - like it was in Vietnam.
Mid-Night_Sun
Apr 7 2009, 01:28 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 01:22 PM) [snapback]4191060[/snapback]
yeah and Japanese can prove they always lived in the Kuriles

ho chi minh promised the islands to us in 1958, because china is what made vietnam even possible. should you just change your mind after you don't need us anymore? shifty.gif


lol let it go. regardless of how, control over those islands is known. also no one who researches is going to claim China had nothing to do with those islands prior to the 1900s. there is no debate for us here...
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 01:32 PM
QUOTE(Legion @ Apr 7 2009, 12:45 PM) [snapback]4191114[/snapback]
BTW. Vietnamese already have these weapons seized from the French. You've said every single weapon, bullets, and mortar is an exaggeration. Get off your damn high horse, and get in touch with reality.

really? do you know what year is Dien Bien Phu? You think your French bullets lasted you four years of war?

QUOTE(SoCal @ Apr 7 2009, 12:36 PM) [snapback]4191107[/snapback]
How much did China take from Vietnam during 1407-1427 and over 1,000 years of Sinocization?

I know Vietnam got a lot from Chinese culture too. And I don't think anyone claims "Vietnam fed China" or anything like that.

I'm not trying to say Vietnam should do something out of historical debts. The dispute now is between PRC and SRVN. I'm just explaining what the relationship was like, and that there was a past understanding. It is SRVN that broke with the understanding.
SoCal
Apr 7 2009, 01:41 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 11:32 AM) [snapback]4191144[/snapback]
really? do you know what year is Dien Bien Phu? You think your French bullets lasted you four years of war?
I know Vietnam got a lot from Chinese culture too. And I don't think anyone claims "Vietnam fed China" or anything like that.

I'm not trying to say Vietnam should do something out of historical debts. The dispute now is between PRC and SRVN. I'm just explaining what the relationship was like, and that there was a past understanding. It is SRVN that broke with the understanding.



If you want us to listen to you and respect you, please do not act like a barbarian and please be reasonable.


If you think you have a strong case, please present your evidences to the court of law.
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 01:57 PM
^ wth are you talking about?
FinestAsian
Apr 7 2009, 01:58 PM
QUOTE(Mid-Night_Sun @ Apr 7 2009, 01:28 PM) [snapback]4191140[/snapback]
lol let it go. regardless of how, control over those islands is known. also no one who researches is going to claim China had nothing to do with those islands prior to the 1900s. there is no debate for us here...

Very typical -> no need to debate since it has been robbed. No more debate, yeah, just rob it....so Chinese...
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 02:00 PM
no dude, both sides are saying we've been robbed
Mid-Night_Sun
Apr 7 2009, 02:48 PM
QUOTE(FinestAsian @ Apr 7 2009, 03:58 PM) [snapback]4191169[/snapback]
Very typical -> no need to debate since it has been robbed. No more debate, yeah, just rob it....so Chinese...

i already did debate this. a lot. did China have claim to the islands prior to 1900s? yes. did Vietnam? yes. does China have it now? yes.

what do you want to debate...and what is your goal. you think if you debate me you will get the islands back?

you just want to argue? find someone who hasnt already debated this issue.

i posted because i dont see the beginnings of a debate going on here.


the only one who is being typical here is you. a typical idiot who jumps to conclusions. dont reply to me if you are just going to waste my time...
mkfk1
Apr 7 2009, 02:48 PM
The islands...were unclaim until 1920s when the French came.

Those Island, have almost zero fresh water sources. It is almost impossible to sustain a population on those Island.

This is why, after the viet war, there is a mad scramble for those Island. It serve economic and strategic interests.

China is only doing whats serve her interest.

Suck for Asean countries, we have the bigger guns, therefore, your claims are useless infront of our mighty military.
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 02:52 PM
yeah the problem is China doesn't control all our claims. it's not like we got what we want and can just ignore them.
SoCal
Apr 7 2009, 02:57 PM
QUOTE(mkfk1 @ Apr 7 2009, 12:48 PM) [snapback]4191180[/snapback]
The islands...were unclaim until 1920s when the French came.

Those Island, have almost zero fresh water sources. It is almost impossible to sustain a population on those Island.

This is why, after the viet war, there is a mad scramble for those Island. It serve economic and strategic interests.

China is only doing whats serve her interest.

Suck for Asean countries, we have the bigger guns, therefore, your claims are useless infront of our mighty military.



Talk and act like a barbarian.
XigonCongchua
Apr 7 2009, 03:55 PM
Those islands were historically controlled by Vietnam until 1974. China had no administration on these islands but Vietnam had. A map drawn by a military general of the Ming court in Hainan in 1601 include these islands as part of Dai Viet, not part of China. China govt has been fabricating up evidences for their historical claims of Paracels by twisting the words in their historical text.


http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...=196851&hl=
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Mar 19 2009, 11:48 PM) [snapback]4171220[/snapback]
There have been many evidences for Vietnam's claim of sovereignty of the Paracel islands but most of them came from historical documentary within Vietnam or from maps and journals drawn/written by Western missionaries. This time the evidence for Vietnam's sovereignty of Paracels comes right from China, the only country that has been disputing the islands with Vietnam.

In the book An Nam Đồ Ch 安南圖誌 by Đặng Chung 鄧鐘, a military general of Hainan, Paracel and Spratley islands were included in the maps as part of Annam's territory. The map was dated back to 1601.

So even a high-ranked military official of the Ming court in Hainan testified that Paracels were part of Vietnam (as our historical documents always claimed) for centuries...until early 1970s when China took advantage of the Vietnam War when both North and South Vietnam were too occupied of fighting each other to invade the Paracels! Now Chinese documents claim that Paracels were part of China for many hundreds years.

http://www.tuoitre.com.vn/Tianyon/Index.as...amp;ChannelID=3

QUOTE
Hai bản đồ qu khẳng định chủ quyền Việt Nam ở Trường Sa v Hong Sa

Trong vấn đề tranh chấp chủ quyền về biển Đng với Trung Quốc, bn cạnh kha cạnh php l v luật php quốc tế th vấn đề chứng cứ lịch sử l rất quan trọng. Điều ny lại cng quan trọng khi phải đối thoại với Trung Quốc - l nước c truyền thống lưu trữ v khảo cứu thư tịch cổ rất lu đời, với trnh độ rất cao.

Bn cạnh cc ti liệu do người VN bin soạn (hiện đang lưu trữ trong v ngoi nước) th cc ti liệu do người nước ngoi, đặc biệt l người Trung Quốc bin soạn lại cng quan trọng, v ở đ n l bằng chứng hng hồn nhất trong vấn đề chủ quyền tại biển Đng. Một khi tm được cc bằng chứng từ pha Trung Quốc, về việc họ khng xc nhận chủ quyền tại biển Đng th việc xem xt vấn đề trn bnh diện php l trở nn thuận lợi.

Mới đy, từ cc bức ảnh do PGS-TS Đinh Khắc Thun cung cấp, PGS-TS Ng Đức Thọ pht hiện ra rằng, đy l bằng chứng chủ quyền của nước ta đối với hai quần đảo Hong Sa - Trường Sa.

Đ l cuốn An Nam đồ ch của soạn giả Đặng Chung. Cuốn sch ny được bin soạn "căn cứ theo bản sao ở Thuật Cổ Đường của họ Tiền". Thuật Cổ Đường l tn thư viện của Tiền Đại Hn - nh khảo chứng học nổi tiếng đời Thanh. Họ tn soạn giả An Nam đồ ch được ghi cuối bi tựa: Phn thủ Quảng Đng Quỳnh Nhai Ph Tổng binh n Lăng Đặng Chung (Ph Tổng binh trấn thủ chu Quỳnh Nhai, tỉnh Quảng Đng l Đặng Chung, người huyện n Lăng).

An Nam đồ ch l một tập sch bản đồ c cc khảo ch về ton quốc v cc địa phương của VN. Một nội dung như vậy l một ti liệu tham khảo sử địa học quan trọng, m giới nghin cứu VN cả trong nước v quốc tế cho đến nay chưa từng trch dẫn hoặc biết tới. Nin đại soạn sch ghi sau bi tựa cng l một gi trị qu hiếm: Vạn Lịch Mậu Thn thanh minh nhật. Vạn Lịch (1573-1620) l nin hiệu Vua Minh Thần Tng, năm Mậu Thn Vạn Lịch l năm 1608, cch nay đng 401 năm.

An Nam đồ ch l thư tịch bản đồ đầu tin của Trung Quốc ghi tn cửa biển Đại Trường Sa trong tờ bản đồ vẽ nước An Nam - tức Việt Nam.

PGS-TS Ng Đức Thọ kết luận: "Bất cứ v l do g, việc một vin quan binh của nh Minh giữ chức Ph Tổng binh chu Quỳnh Nhai (tức đảo Hải Nam) ghi tn Cửa biển Đại Trường Sa của VN trn bản đồ An Nam, chứng tỏ người Trung Hoa từ trước v từ triều Minh, triều Thanh đều thừa nhận hai quần đảo Hong Sa-Trường Sa l thuộc Việt Nam".

Về ti liệu nước ngoi, TS Nguyễn Nh c một pht hiện đặc biệt quan trọng, khi ng tiếp cận bản đồ An Nam đại quốc họa đồ -, do Gim mục Taberd vẽ năm 1838. Tấm bản đồ nằm trong cuốn từ điển được in ấn, nn n khng phải l độc bản m mức độ phổ biến rộng ri, đến được với nhiều người - đặc biệt l giới học giả (đối tượng sử dụng chủ yếu của cuốn từ điển ny). Trn bản đồ, quần đảo Hong Sa được viết bằng chữ "Ct Vng". V điều đặc biệt nhất l, bản đồ c ghi tọa độ v khi đối chiếu với số liệu hm nay th hon ton trng khớp. Đy l bản đồ cổ duy nhất c ghi tọa độ v cũng l bản đồ cổ duy nhất c xc định tọa độ của Hong Sa.

Ngoi ra, trn tập san The journal of the Asiatic society of Bengal, Vol VI cũng đ đăng bi của gim mục Taberd, xc nhận Vua Gia Long đ thn chinh vượt biển đến Hong Sa vo năm 1816 v long trọng treo cờ, chnh thức giữ chủ quyền quần đảo Paracels (Hong Sa, Ct Vng)...

Hai tấm bản đồ do những người nước ngoi vẽ thực sự l một minh chứng hng hồn về chủ quyền của Việt Nam đối với hai quần đảo Hong Sa v Trường Sa.


GS-TS Nguyễn Quang Ngọc - Viện Việt Nam học v Khoa học pht triển: Thư tịch v bản đồ cổ của Trung Quốc tnh cho đến cuối thế kỷ XIX v thậm ch cả những năm cuối thập kỷ đầu của thế kỷ XX, đều phản nh một thực tế hết sức hiển nhin l vng lnh thổ, lnh hải truyền thống của Trung Quốc chưa bao giờ vượt qu đảo Hải Nam.

Phải khẳng định một cch tuyệt đối rằng lịch sử thực thi chủ quyền của VN ở hai quần đảo Hong Sa v Trường Sa với tư cch nh nước, pht triển lin tục, r rng, muộn nhất l từ đầu thế kỷ XVII (dưới thời Cha Nguyễn Phc Nguyn) v qua cc thế kỷ XVIII (dưới thời cc cha Nguyễn tiếp theo v vương triều Ty Sơn), XIX (dưới thời cc vương triều Nguyễn) v cho mi đến những năm đầu của thế kỷ XX vẫn chưa hề gặp phải sự phản đối của bất cứ quốc gia no".



Biển Đng c vị tr địa chiến lược, địa kinh tế cực kỳ quan trọng v l yết hầu kinh tế của ton bộ khu vực Đng . Biển Đng l nơi giao nhau của nhiều tuyến hng hải quan trọng bậc nhất thế giới, nối liền Ấn Độ Dương v Thi Bnh Dương. Biển Đng rộng 6,2 triệu kilmt vung, hng ngy c khoảng 400 tu lớn qua đy, khoảng 25% mậu dịch v 1/2 lượng dầu tiu thụ của thế giới qua biển Đng. Khoảng 80% dầu th của Trung Quốc, Hn Quốc, Nhật Bản nhập khẩu từ Trung Đng, Chu Phi v cc nước ASEAN đều đi qua biển Đng. Biển Đng c trữ lượng dầu mỏ, kh đốt, phốtpht v nhiều khoảng sản qu hiếm.

Nguồn: PGS-TS L Văn Cương



I found some pictures of the An Nam Đồ Ch "安南圖誌" in google but they were taken off for national security reason I think
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&...sa=N&tab=wi




Besides, the evidences for Vietnam's claim of Paracels don't just come from within Vietnam but also from the journals European missionaries and Western travelers in back in the 1700s and 1800s.

All the evidence that China gave for ownership of Paracels before 1974 only came from the twisting and manipulation of words in Chinese historical records. There's no external evidence (from any European missionary) that Paracels belonged to China.
beefnoodle
Apr 7 2009, 03:57 PM
quick xigon
do something? dont just hide behind the computer
DO SOMETHING kiss.gif
XigonCongchua
Apr 7 2009, 04:02 PM
List of some Western sources that confirmed that Đại Việt had sovereignty over Paracels.

1. Nhật k trn tu Amphitrite (năm 1701) xc nhận Paracels l một quần đảo thuộc về nước An Nam. ("Diary on the Amphitrite ship" written in 1701 confirmed that the Paracel archipalago belonged to the nation of Annam)

2. Le mmoire sur la Cochinchine của Jean Baptiste Chaigneau (1769-1825) viết vo những năm cuối đời Gia Long (hon tất năm 1820) đ khẳng định năm 1816 vua Gia Long đ xc lập chủ quyền Việt Nam trn quần đảo Paracels.

3. An Nam Đại Quốc Họa Đồ (Map of the Great Annam) by Taberd published in 1838 khẳng định Ct Vng (Hong Sa) l Paracels v nằm trong vng biển của Việt Nam.

4. The Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, Vol. VI đ đăng bi của gim mục Taberd xc nhận vua Gia Long chnh thức giữ chủ quyền quần đảo Paracels).

5. The Journal of the Geographycal Society of London (năm 1849) GutzLaff ghi nhận chnh quyền An Nam lập ra những trưng thuyền v một trại qun nhỏ để thu thuế ở Paracels...
mkfk1
Apr 7 2009, 04:05 PM
QUOTE
Talk and act like a barbarian.


Enforce with missiles, destroyers, 4th G jets, and a 2 trillion USD reserves.

When vietnam have those things, then you can ask to share these unclaimed Islands. Otherwise, you may as well move aside. If we want to be aggressive, we can build a watchtower in every single one of those Islands.
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 04:09 PM
yeah, the point is, you vietnamese are treating it like we're trying to colonize hanoi.

you live under french for one hundred years. china helped you heart and soul to kick them out. now you want to fight us for some uninhabited islands you promised us. and you don't expect chinese to get red face and rattle our saber a little?
XigonCongchua
Apr 7 2009, 04:09 PM
@mkfk1: people like you make Chinese look aggressive and ugly.

FYI the United Nations never recognized those islands as party of China so legally they still belong to Vietnam and the Chinese occupation of those islands are illegal. You may piss on the United Nations and say they're nothing to you but your action would just show that you're a barbaric lawless person.
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 04:12 PM
the United Nations isn't taking a side, unlike your distorted portrayal
XigonCongchua
Apr 7 2009, 04:14 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 02:09 PM) [snapback]4191265[/snapback]
yeah, the point is, you vietnamese are treating it like we're trying to colonize hanoi.

you live under french for one hundred years. china helped you heart and soul to kick them out. now you want to fight us for some uninhabited islands you promised us. and you don't expect chinese to get red face and rattle our saber a little?

you keep making the same untrue statement again and again. Go read post #5 of mine.

QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Apr 7 2009, 10:17 AM) [snapback]4191094[/snapback]
1. China took that island by force in 1974 when Northern and Southern Vietnamese were too occupied with the Vietnam War and neglect those islands.

2. China never really helped Vietnam on anything. It did much more harm than benefit to the nation of Vietnam. The Vietnamese stood and fought foreigners on their own. Yea yea I knew they got some supply from Russia and China but that amount of supply meant nothing compared to what the people of Vietnam had to sacrifice. Vietnamese people are known to be every enduring people with great determination. They could still defeat the French and the US without any help from China. China's supply to North Vietnam wasn't much and besides, China did it for itself, not for Vietnam. Also look at what horrible things China did to Vietnam in the two Sino-Viet war in 1979 and 1985 and you'll see the great damage they did to Vietnam far outweighed the little supply that they sent to Vietnam during the Vietnam War.


BTW promised what? There's no evidence that HCM promised those islands to China. Also should I remind you that in 1958 North Vietnam and South Vietnam had already been divided with Paracels being included as part of South Vietnam. North Vietnam had no control over those islands. How could they give those islands to you when they had absolutely no control over those islands? Those islands were under the occupation of South Vietnam's military!
XigonCongchua
Apr 7 2009, 04:19 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 02:12 PM) [snapback]4191271[/snapback]
the United Nations isn't taking a side, unlike your distorted portrayal

Those islands were under the administration of Vietnam before China attacked it 1974. The United Nation was established at the end of World War II when those island were within Vietnam's border and control as it had always been. Therefore it legally belonged to Vietnam as defined by the laws. When China attacked in 1974, China violated the laws. When there's a shift of territory, it needs to be recognized either by international treaty of countries involved (the former owner and the new owner) or by the United Nations. The shift of territory that we're talking about wasn't recognized by neither international treaty or by the United Nations. Therefore it's illegal.
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 04:19 PM
I wonder if it's ever possible to realize your own narrow mindset xigon.

I showed you the letter which you immediately get mad and say it's a fake. Now you come up with some lame excuse, like we can't promise what we didn't control. Well you can. It's like I can say, I'll pay you back when I make $10,000. can I say later, I didn't have that money at the time I promised you? it's ridiculous! you make ridiculous emotional arguments again and again!

it's not the way to handle international affairs. you can just keep poking china in the eye and not respect chinese position. think about why is it, among china's neighbors, it's vietnam that suffers war time and again, while north korea doesn't have these problems. please have some ability to look at yourself for a change.

***

xigon you attacked all of freaking south vietnam. should china denounce the "shift of territory"? you're insane.
XigonCongchua
Apr 7 2009, 04:27 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 02:19 PM) [snapback]4191280[/snapback]
I wonder if it's ever possible to realize your own narrow mindset xigon.

I showed you the letter which you immediately get mad and say it's a fake. Now you come up with some lame excuse, like we can't promise what we didn't control. Well you can. It's like I can say, I'll pay you back when I make $10,000. can I say later, I didn't have that money at the time I promised you? it's ridiculous! you make ridiculous emotional arguments again and again!

it's not the way to handle international affairs. you can just keep poking china in the eye and not respect chinese position. think about why is it, among china's neighbors, it's vietnam that suffers war time and again, while north korea doesn't have these problems. please have some ability to look at yourself for a change.

***

xigon you attacked all of freaking south vietnam. should china denounce the "shift of territory"? you're insane.

Because it is indeed fake. But you don't know it's fake because you're not Vietnamese. You don't know how Vietnamese writing system is supposed to be like. You also don't know that the national name of the country written in the document was wrong. There are so many mistakes in it that it can't be real. A real treaty concerning a large piece of land like that must be formal and correctly written. Let's not talk about the treaty. Let's just talk about a contract between home owners. Your name, your social security number, your bank account, and everything about you must be correctly stated in the contract. But that's just a home contract. Here you're talking about a treaty concerning a large piece of land, mistakes like the official sign of the country was wrongly printed are unacceptable. It could not be a real treaty. Because it's not real, the government of China never declared it.
Daozimo
Apr 7 2009, 04:29 PM
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Apr 7 2009, 05:02 PM) [snapback]4191255[/snapback]
List of some Western sources that confirmed that Đại Việt had sovereignty over Paracels.

1. Nhật k trn tu Amphitrite (năm 1701) xc nhận Paracels l một quần đảo thuộc về nước An Nam. ("Diary on the Amphitrite ship" written in 1701 confirmed that the Paracel archipalago belonged to the nation of Annam)

2. Le mmoire sur la Cochinchine của Jean Baptiste Chaigneau (1769-1825) viết vo những năm cuối đời Gia Long (hon tất năm 1820) đ khẳng định năm 1816 vua Gia Long đ xc lập chủ quyền Việt Nam trn quần đảo Paracels.

3. An Nam Đại Quốc Họa Đồ (Map of the Great Annam) by Taberd published in 1838 khẳng định Ct Vng (Hong Sa) l Paracels v nằm trong vng biển của Việt Nam.

4. The Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal, Vol. VI đ đăng bi của gim mục Taberd xc nhận vua Gia Long chnh thức giữ chủ quyền quần đảo Paracels).

5. The Journal of the Geographycal Society of London (năm 1849) GutzLaff ghi nhận chnh quyền An Nam lập ra những trưng thuyền v một trại qun nhỏ để thu thuế ở Paracels...


Friend, Dai Viet no longer exists. Neither does the Ming, nor the Qing. The modern world was shaped in the fires of the three world wars (World War I, World War II, and the Cold War). Its borders are carved in blood.

To build a better world, man must learn to put aside past differences and to work together. Dreaming of past territory will only result in the rebirth of terror. This applies to every one.

This is why those islands should be shared.
SoCal
Apr 7 2009, 04:30 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 02:09 PM) [snapback]4191265[/snapback]
yeah, the point is, you vietnamese are treating it like we're trying to colonize hanoi.

you live under french for one hundred years. china helped you heart and soul to kick them out. now you want to fight us for some uninhabited islands you promised us. and you don't expect chinese to get red face and rattle our saber a little?



This poem was created by Ly Thuong Kiet in 1077, almost 1,000 years ago. It was the first Declaration of Independence by the Vietnamese. You mention about the French and North Vietnam and South Vietnam and Ho Chi Minh and Ngo Dinh Diem that came in the 20th century.


This poem takes precedence. Please do not go against the Will of Heaven and Earth. I am telling you nicely and courteously. Of course, you still refuse to learn about history and want to act and behave in your own ways.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountains_and...outhern_country


Over Mountains and Rivers of the South,
reigns the People of the South,
As it stands written forever in the Book of Heaven.
How dare those barbarians invade our land?
Your armies, without pity, will be annihilated.


XigonCongchua
Apr 7 2009, 04:33 PM
Of course both Dai Viet and the Ming Dynasty no longer exists but I disdain the way the government of China tries to distort history. It's obvious that those islands were under the administration of the Viet nation (whether you call it Dai Viet, Vietnam, or Annam) before 1974 but the government of China makes it seem like those islands had long been under administration of China.
FinestAsian
Apr 7 2009, 04:39 PM
QUOTE(Mid-Night_Sun @ Apr 7 2009, 02:48 PM) [snapback]4191179[/snapback]
i already did debate this. a lot. did China have claim to the islands prior to 1900s? yes. did Vietnam? yes. does China have it now? yes.

what do you want to debate...and what is your goal. you think if you debate me you will get the islands back?

you just want to argue? find someone who hasnt already debated this issue.

i posted because i dont see the beginnings of a debate going on here.
the only one who is being typical here is you. a typical idiot who jumps to conclusions. dont reply to me if you are just going to waste my time...

You're the idiot who is wasting my time and no, who gives a fuk if you tell me not to reply. I reply this not only to you but also your dumb, uneducated so-called Chinazis can also learn too.
The point for the topic is to show what is right and wrong, what we can learn from it. From your logic, as long as things are done the way it is right now, nobody should talk about it? This is the attitude which is so dangerous for everyone, the fuking ignorant attitude.
If you carry this attitude then you guys should never biitch about how other countries robbed your fuking pathetic assses during WWII, simply because whoever owns what they robbed now, they should own them?
You understand. Why is it so hard for me to get my point across to your dumb head? I never believed China has so many stupid people until I read the posts from these Chinese members in this forum.
And don't reply to me if you are just going to waste my time again.


FinestAsian
Apr 7 2009, 04:42 PM
QUOTE(mkfk1 @ Apr 7 2009, 04:05 PM) [snapback]4191260[/snapback]
Enforce with missiles, destroyers, 4th G jets, and a 2 trillion USD reserves.

When vietnam have those things, then you can ask to share these unclaimed Islands. Otherwise, you may as well move aside. If we want to be aggressive, we can build a watchtower in every single one of those Islands.

Funny, you talk like China is the only one which has missiles. If this plan is possible, why haven't they done so?
Your dumbass sitting behind the screen screaming for war...funny...There are many of you everywhere and they learned their lesson well.
mkfk1
Apr 7 2009, 04:43 PM
QUOTE
@mkfk1: people like you make Chinese look aggressive and ugly.

FYI the United Nations never recognized those islands as party of China so legally they still belong to Vietnam and the Chinese occupation of those islands are illegal. You may piss on the United Nations and say they're nothing to you but your action would just show that you're a barbaric lawless person.


I make Chinese look aggressive, ugly, and POWERFUL.

You dont have to like us, but you do have to respect our powers. Even the US have to give us respect if they want economic co operation. Who are you to demand anything from us? More or less un-claimed Islands in the South China Sea?

The UN is power by the 5 permanent council, of which China is a member of. Anything the UN say is at the mercy of Chinese veto. But more importantly, anything individual nation say is subject to Chinese trade boycott, as evidence by the 6 months of French trade war.

Vietnam, rather they have the moral or legal high ground or not, are nothing compare to the economical, military, and political power of the PRC. We are not sharing these islands. The only other state that we may share the island with, is TW. Because they are a Chinese state.

QUOTE
Funny, you talk like China is the only one which has missiles. If this plan is possible, why haven't they done so?
Your dumbass sitting behind the screen screaming for war...funny...There are many of you everywhere and they learned their lesson well.


No we are not the only countries with missiles. But we are the only countries with those weapons that try to claim these islands.

Most of the Chinese nationalists are basically putting up their case as to why your claims are unrealistic.

If you are not smart enough to look at these debates, then really, you are the one that is the dumbass, screaming 1337 on the internet.
Daozimo
Apr 7 2009, 04:43 PM
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Apr 7 2009, 05:33 PM) [snapback]4191297[/snapback]
Of course both Dai Viet and the Ming Dynasty no longer exists but I disdain the way the government of China tries to distort history. It's obvious that those islands were under the administration of the Viet nation (whether you call it Dai Viet, Vietnam, or Annam) before 1974 but the government of China makes it seem like those islands had long been under administration of China.


Friend, I agree with you that the government of China has distorted history to serve its political ends. In my view, resources roughly equidistant from the coasts of different countries should be jointly developed and shared. Maritime laws and EEZs should be respected, or re-negotiated in the UN if they are deemed inadequate. It is to the world's advantage to work out its differences diplomatically. Violence should not be an option.
CS6
Apr 7 2009, 04:45 PM
QUOTE(SoCal @ Apr 7 2009, 04:30 PM) [snapback]4191296[/snapback]
This poem was created by Ly Thuong Kiet in 1077, almost 1,000 years ago. It was the first Declaration of Independence by the Vietnamese. You mention about the French and North Vietnam and South Vietnam and Ho Chi Minh and Ngo Dinh Diem that came in the 20th century.
This poem takes precedence. Please do not go against the Will of Heaven and Earth. I am telling you nicely and courteously. Of course, you still refuse to learn about history and want to act and behave in your own ways.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountains_and...outhern_country
Over Mountains and Rivers of the South,
reigns the People of the South,
As it stands written forever in the Book of Heaven.
How dare those barbarians invade our land?
Your armies, without pity, will be annihilated.


I know that poem, I've read it in Chinese, it's even better.

China has a lot of war poems too. To most Chinese these poems are archaic and insane. Yes they tug at your heart, but how much can you live only by your heart? The paracels were uninhabited. They are not essential part of Vietnam, which has itself expanded at the expense of the Khmers. If Vietnamese are still interested in negotiations, you need to be able to understand the opposite view point, and accept honorable compromises. That's all there is to it, really.
FinestAsian
Apr 7 2009, 04:48 PM
QUOTE(mkfk1 @ Apr 7 2009, 04:43 PM) [snapback]4191316[/snapback]
I make Chinese look aggressive, ugly, and POWERFUL.

You dont have to like us, but you do have to respect our powers. Even the US have to give us respect if they want economic co operation. Who are you to demand anything from us? More or less un-claimed Islands in the South China Sea?

The UN is power by the 5 permanent council, of which China is a member of. Anything the UN say is at the mercy of Chinese veto. But more importantly, anything individual nation say is subject to Chinese trade boycott, as evidence by the 6 months of French trade war.

Vietnam, rather they have the moral or legal high ground or not, are nothing compare to the economical, military, and political power of the PRC. We are not sharing these islands. The only other state that we may share the island with, is TW. Because they are a Chinese state.

Why the fuk that I have to respect "your power"? You are acting behind the screen or something...please go scream or running around your house. You are in no position to make any statement at all. It's like these guys are living in their dream world, thinking their words actually represent something.

On the second thought, let me sream again at your face: Nooooo, you have to respect our power too, we are not sharing those islands.
Enough? Now get back to reality, kid.
mkfk1
Apr 7 2009, 04:52 PM
QUOTE
Why the fuk that I have to respect "your power"? You are acting behind the screen or something...please go scream or running around your house. You are in no position to make any statement at all. It's like these guys are living in their dream world, thinking their words actually represent something.


Because great power needs to be respected.

And judging from your comment, it looks like you have lost your logic and has resulted to cursing.

I guess this is why vietnam is still a long way behind when compare to other SEA nation say Singapore.

QUOTE
On the second thought, let me sream again at your face: Nooooo, you have to respect our power too, we are not sharing those islands.
Enough? Now get back to reality, kid.


Vietnam is a 3rd world country with a relatively weak military. You dont deserves any respect from other major powers.
SoCal
Apr 7 2009, 04:54 PM
QUOTE(CS6 @ Apr 7 2009, 02:45 PM) [snapback]4191319[/snapback]
I know that poem, I've read it in Chinese, it's even better.

China has a lot of war poems too. To most Chinese these poems are archaic and insane. Yes they tug at your heart, but how much can you live only by your heart? The paracels were uninhabited. They are not essential part of Vietnam, which has itself expanded at the expense of the Khmers. If Vietnamese are still interested in negotiations, you need to be able to understand the opposite view point, and accept honorable compromises. That's all there is to it, really.



You become more reasonable and thank you for that.


Please do not think your threats like your other fellows will scare us. Before the advent of the Western nations, we were able to confront the Mongolians three times.


Regarding the Khmers and the Chams, please kindly learned that they took advantage and attacked Dai Viet when the nation was barely independent. For our survival and security, we needed to fight. Otherwise, we would be extinct.


Remember that our mother Au Co was from the mountains and our father Lac Long Quan was from the oceans and our Viet land was built by the sweat and toil of our ancestors. We sacrified and fought inch by inch over several thousand years for what we have today.


Please go to this link for more information.


http://www.geocities.com/khmerchronology/angkor.htm

1128

King Suryavarman II sends 20,000 men to attack the Dai Viet and is defeated.

Suryavarman's embassy reaches China.

1132

The Chams and Khmers attack Dai Viet together at Nghe-an and are defeated.

1133

Two men from Champa ask for asylum in the Dai Viet court, which indicate that the hostilities between the Khmer and Cham have started.

1136

King Suryavarman II carries out another major campaign against the Dai Viet, without the Cham as allies, and is defeated.

1138

King Suryavarman II launches another unsuccessful campaign against the Dai Viet.

Daozimo
Apr 7 2009, 04:56 PM
QUOTE(mkfk1 @ Apr 7 2009, 05:43 PM) [snapback]4191316[/snapback]
I make Chinese look aggressive, ugly, and POWERFUL.

You dont have to like us, but you do have to respect our powers. Even the US have to give us respect if they want economic co operation. Who are you to demand anything from us? More or less un-claimed Islands in the South China Sea?

The UN is power by the 5 permanent council, of which China is a member of. Anything the UN say is at the mercy of Chinese veto. But more importantly, anything individual nation say is subject to Chinese trade boycott, as evidence by the 6 months of French trade war.

Vietnam, rather they have the moral or legal high ground or not, are nothing compare to the economical, military, and political power of the PRC. We are not sharing these islands. The only other state that we may share the island with, is TW. Because they are a Chinese state.
No we are not the only countries with missiles. But we are the only countries with those weapons that try to claim these islands.

Most of the Chinese nationalists are basically putting up their case as to why your claims are unrealistic.

If you are not smart enough to look at these debates, then really, you are the one that is the dumbass, screaming 1337 on the internet.


Friend, please calm down. Power achieved through violence is not something we should take pride in. Throughout history, war has achieved nothing that peace could not have achieved, and yet has brought undue suffering to all involved. It is much better to share, than to claim and snatch. I would that the world had no borders, and all could live as brothers and sisters under one roof. But failing that, we should at least respect the hard-earned fruits of peace and not be so eager to repeat history.

I do not endorse the views of the Chinese government, because I think they are clouded by insecurity disguised as arrogance. China believes that in order to be strong, one must never yield to compromise. Yet, sometimes it is in yielding that one demonstrates true strength: the willow that bends weathers the storm, while the mighty oak snaps in two.

There are moments when one must make a stand against unrelenting hatred. In other moments, however, one is served best by mutual understanding and empathy.
FinestAsian
Apr 7 2009, 04:57 PM
QUOTE(mkfk1 @ Apr 7 2009, 04:52 PM) [snapback]4191327[/snapback]
Because great power needs to be respected.

And judging from your comment, it looks like you have lost your logic and has resulted to cursing.

I guess this is why vietnam is still a long way behind when compare to other SEA nation say Singapore.

It was you who was using the illogical logic which resorts to making statements from your own thinking they represent for all Chinese. It was you who were sreaming at my Viet members like a meniac.
Regarding what you mean a long way behind. There are alot of factors to consider like: who had a chance to start first, country size, history, potential for future.
If you just want to compare from income alone, then remember you're still behind alot of countries too.
Well, I guess this is why China is still hated and being viewed as a threat by other nations, says Vietnam.

QUOTE(mkfk1 @ Apr 7 2009, 04:52 PM) [snapback]4191327[/snapback]
Vietnam is a 3rd world country with a relatively weak military. You dont deserves any respect from other major powers.


I didn't know China is the 1st world country now. And don't you think it's stupid to compare China and Vietnam?
I don't see alot of you compare China with the US. Well, very typical again. You guys seem to remember what's good. When talking about military, how do you know who is weak. we want peace, doesn't mean we are weak. You talk strong doesn't mean you are the best.
Out of all the technologies, they are stolen and copied from other countries. Anyway, don't reply to me if you're going to waste my time.
SoCal
Apr 7 2009, 05:04 PM
QUOTE(mkfk1 @ Apr 7 2009, 02:52 PM) [snapback]4191327[/snapback]
Because great power needs to be respected.

And judging from your comment, it looks like you have lost your logic and has resulted to cursing.

I guess this is why vietnam is still a long way behind when compare to other SEA nation say Singapore.
Vietnam is a 3rd world country with a relatively weak military. You dont deserves any respect from other major powers.


This were what the Songs, the Mongolians, the Mings, the Manchurians, the French, the Americans thought about Dai Viet. Please learn more about history before you make comments like that.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.