Many people say that people are basically O.K. It doesn't matter where your from; People are basically good and desire the best. That is the typical view of an atheist or a liberal. But is that the truth? What is a strong argument in favor of the old fashioned Christian view?

My main objection to such a view centers on forgiveness. I generally agree that people are basically nice and easy going until you make them angry. People will get along until somebody feels cheated in some way. For example, many people will like you until your job performance annoys them. Perhaps your doing a bad job or are lazy. In other situations people hate you due to the sins of others. For instance, if a national team is cheated then many people will hold racist grudges. In this case you yourself personally did nothing to cause the hatred.

Therefore, we can easily see that people are not easy going folks. They're hateful and full of grudges. So that is why Christians spread the gospel. People indeed need spiritual liberation. Let's examine this concept of forgiveness in more detail.


Gospel of Matthew 6:9–13



Forgiveness is a main theme of the Lord's Prayer. The prayer literally says that those who do not forgive will not be forgiven. If you believe in the Roman Catholic view of justification then that means that those who do not forgive will not be justified (go to heaven). Now of course I'm willing to accept the possiblity that Hell is not eternal. But nonetheless how can we argue with scripture?

But you know some sins are obvious and easy to spot. These are mortal sins (sins that cause one to go to hell) For example, we could easily travel to Bangkok and look at the sex industry and self righteously call the people sinners or heathen. We could go to Ireland or Korea and observe all the drinking and pass judgements. We could easily claim that Americans are greedy. However, when we travel to these nations we find that not all people are involved in so called sins. Even if some are involved in such sins then so what? Probably we can just say they are human and basically good. But what fools us most of all? What is something that we can't see at first glance?

We do not study people on a deeper level. Once we know people in more detail then we find they can't forgive. So we lose the illusion of "shiny happy people".

It's important to note that the sins of drunkeness, greed etc.. are not included in the Lord's prayer but forgiveness is. Could there be a reason for that? Perhaps we need forgiveness to fix or other sins and of course we can't get forgiveness unless we forgive others. Looking at it from a secular point of view one could argue that to understand forgiveness we must forgive first.

What is your view on forgiveness (in general) and the Lord's Prayer?

i'm not christian or much religious.
but the whole forgiveness thing in christianity is something i quite like.

i think (personal opinion) that it's not about wether "people" can forgive. it's about wether you, yourself can forgive.

and i also think... well, personally, i love human beings. sure, a LOT of them are assholes, no doubt about that. but the, lol, "general concept of humanity" is just awesome. i dunno if that makes sense... i cant explain it very well. i guess i'm just a philanthrope.

i am have the firm opinion that there is a difference of what people DO and what they ARE.
to put it superficially, a person can be good at heart and still do stupid things. people can change. people evolve everyday.
mankind does a lot of $hitty things, but i think, aside from their deeds, they are good at heart.
and that's why they are worth forgiveness - theoretically. it's not always possible to forgive.
i believe in the motto "forgive but don't forget".

I think the big problem is this:

Atheists think people can be forgiving and loving without God. On the other hand, Christians believe that people are born sinful without the ability to be forgiving.

Of course, one could say that even non-Christians can be forgiving at times. Nonetheless, a Christian would argue that a non-Christian can in some ways non-sinful but in other ways sinful. The Christian argument is that a justified person fulfills ALL of the biblical law. Probably I would agree with the latter argument.

Of course I believe in high standards but a forgiving person can "reject" in a nice way. A non-forgiving person is cruel and arrogant which at times can be funny. Kids and Marine corps drill sergeants definately are the non-forgiving type. My brother in law said that when he was in the US Army (1980's). The sergeants were so mean that a few of the soldiers were crying.

I suppose in the Army such harshness is necessary because people are prepared for battle. But I don't think being a jerk is a way of life everyone should pursue. The problem with ESL is they drag out people into battle without preparation. In addition there is so much racial bias in choosing teachers.

Anyways, it's difficult to counter atheists arguments without a lot of reading. As soon as I get some more cash I'd like to get some good books. These books could provide better arguments against various pro-atheist posters on this forum.
As it stands right now posters like Vothan are winning the argument.