The term Greater India refers to the historical spread of the Culture of India beyond the Indian subcontinent proper. This concerns the spread of Hinduism in Southeast Asia in particular, introduced by the Indianized kingdoms of the 5th to 15th centuries, but may also extend to the earlier spread of Buddhism from India to Central Asia and China by way of the Silk Road during the early centuries CE. To the west, Greater India overlaps with Greater Persia in the Hindukush and Pamir mountains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Indies

i read online that indian culture had spread to large parts of south east asia. infact it even managed to get a foothold in vietnam in terms of champa civilization. but i doubt of any trace in philipines.

anyway majority of the old cultures in south east asia have vanished or got extinct long time ago

removed double post...

yes no more traces except some sanskrit words on our vocabulary. centuries of spanish colonization, indian reducciones and acculturation into the Catholic faith and colonialism mindset were few of the reasons. and even before that the moslem invasion or evangelization as one of the culprits. Indonesians are fortunate to have the Dutch as conquerors, they seemed to have preserved the Indian influences.

during later spanish times, to call a Indio is a very derogatory remark. but in earlier spanish times, it just means as that... Indian.

---
regarding india major or greater india:

That's why when the conquistas came they divided Greater India or East India into the Spanish East India which is the Philippines, Guam etc., Dutch East India which is Indonesia and British East India which is Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei.

There are three Indias, One is the above mentioned Greater India, then the Lesser india which is the Indian Subcontinent and Zanj which is East Africa including the Austronesian Madagascar. This was an old division since the middle ages. The medieval moslems mentioned Ind, Sind and Zanj.

The idea of Three Indias first appears in Europe in the Ravenna Cosmography which was written in the 7th or 8th century. The concept conforms to that of the Islamic view of the three Indies -- Hind, Sind and Zanj.

These were known respectively in Europe as India Major, extending from Malabar to India extra Gangem (East Indies), India Minor, from Malabar to Sind, and India Tertia, the coast of East Africa, specifically the Tanzania region to the Muslims (Zanj).

source: http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/shambhala.htm

Nonsense. Then China, Korean, Japan, Vietnam were also part of "Great India" because of Budhaism.

oh brother, not again !!!

those islands were never part of GREATER INDIA.. before part of this,that.. whatever..

I suggest to watch Michael Wood's 6 part documentary on the history of India.. & be enlightened.. a first good start to really know about it's history.

I just love it when alexandra points out what's crap and what's not

well, it's obvious-- those islands were NEVER part of GREATER INDIA.. oh please.. like I said time & time again.. NO HINDU TEMPLES, nor any for that matter.. the food... Indian culture is intense.. & deep..

that Sanskrit Copperplate found in 900 Ad -- Pinoy historians blab about?? caME FROM borneo( the script).. now, those Indonesian islands had a huge influences & direct links with India bec of their spice trade.. from BC era.. & NO, it didn't reach Mindanao as they were using the BAY OF BENGAL & the Indian OceaN & THE aRABIAN gULF/SEA.

India had a huge tie & links with CENTRAL ASIA.. & that was on land along the
Silk road.. & one can find the ruins of those ancient cities.. today.

filipinos do have chinese influences and it is very prevalent in kapampangan people i read an article regarding kapampangan using fortune cookies to be fair india has given us food like bibingka,there are also arabic influences.

my50cents

Wikipedia lol. Sometimes I don't know whether it's a gift or what. But then again I've never had trust Philippine scholasticism, Kalantiaw, Tasaday wiht or without.

to alexandra, the jawi script came from java lol. but borneo, sumatra, java, schmava, they're all the same right. lol

Laotians, Thai, and of course Cambodians have huge ties with India more than filipinos do. All the latter ethnic groups culture obvious is Indian influenced, and there are Indian temples and ruins in Cambodia of course, and Laos and Thailand. Lao Thai and Cambodian writing is derivived from Indian Sanskrit.

Whats next, filipinos has ties to Vikings and were a part of the Swedish and Icelandic empire?

I agree with you on this.. it's no great surprise-- ANGKOR WAT IS A HINDU TEMPLE.. built around the 12th c entury- & same thing Java boast of a similar temple though smaller in size & scale built around 800 Ad.. wh was just recently excavated probably buried bec of the eruuption of Krakatoa..

so what does this mean??? these places had a direct, profound relations with native Indians even during that time.. it's no accident most of So east Asia is either Buddhist or Hindi until the advent of Islam in the 14th century-- when 'some' converted to this faith. and what
's more-- one can see India's influences via it's food.. like Indonesia.. coming f rom Kerala..

yes, filmcombat.. I agree .. that o c alled babayin came from a defunct Javanese script & derived from sanskrit..

i read that filipino who was stating-- ALIBATA CAME FROM ARAB SCRIPT WAS LAUGHED OFF BY 1930's linguistics experts.. as he invented it.. can't mess around with people who really know I'm afraid..( shoot, even I can figure out that copperplate found in 800 ad..came fro m Sanskrit script.. lol)

as for Chinese influences to those islands??? that mostly came from southern china from minimal trade with the natives.. if one paid attention.. the chinese traded with Phil natives to an extent.. but NEVER SETTLED IN PHIL or Manila until the spanish colonised it-- which means-- relations with China was not so significant.. per se.. until then.. but China had great significant relations with Korea.. the Mings even intemarried with Korean ladies part of the emperor's harem..& the men became assassins which the Mings was so fond of to rid of their enemies. And it was a Ming who built the FORBIDDEN CITY..

I have on Woods Story Of India right now-- so fascinating.. & so much to take .. & absorb.. I just love it as I was always interested to learn the history of India.. I had friends in London who actually lived there like my sweet neighbour Beryl.. who married an Indian doctor educated in Oxford.. she w as always so wistful when she talked about it.. alas. she passed away now..

what's more-- I have a good mind to become Buddhist.. Christianity is so f**ked up !!! you'll never hear of Buddhist monks molesting little boys.. that'a for sure..

Shhh...you're spoiling it. That's coming soon from the MORONS here




Disagree.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=22,1838,0,0,1,0
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=48,4558,0,0,1,0

bibingka came from Indonesia.. thailand.. vietnam.. I know-- I've tried it.

Indian rice desserts are made with rose water & nuts,fruit with cream like a pudding( I know, I make it) as they were influenced by the ancient Persians same thing as Indians use yoghurt.. from the Greeks.

there's nothing original about filipino food.. .. hardly anything direct from India.. more from Indonesia as they were influenced from Kerala.. I have an Indonesian cookery book with original recipes of caldereta kambing & kare-kare.. even the original recipe for adobo..

as for fortune cookies?? invented by the chinese who came to America in the 19th century.

thye chinese cuisine prevalent in phil is Cantonese.. shows what part of china & who settled there.. make sense-- southern china.

Actually it is Fujian cuisine since most Chinese-Filipinos are from Fujian province.

There is not one single language in the world that does not have influence, loan, or borrowed words from another language and culture they came in contact with. Some languages are very simple and do not have words for modern day things. For example the Navajo language does not have words for a car, a cars battery, or a cars engine, so they have borrowed words from the English language mixed in with their language. The American English language has so many borrowed words from other cultures that live here such as: tea which is Chinese in origin, sauerkraut which is Dutch origin, and many other different words for different plants and animals that have Native American origins.

Having loan words from other languages does not mean you are descendant of that cultures race!!!!!!! Just because an Indian or Arab trading ship passed through the Phillipines in the ancient days does not mean that each and every filipino is part Arab or Indian now!! My goodness! Filipinos act as if they are direct descendants of all kinds of people they came in contact with. And again, Filipinos are MONGOLOID of the southern Malay branch. Filipinos are not CAUCASIAN, EURASIANS, OR A MIXED RACE PEOPLE.

Anthropologist and experts from their specialized fields of language and culture all agree that the real Eurasians are the Central Asians and Northwest Chinese minorities such as the Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uighurs, Uzbeks, Turkmens and to a lesser extent Mongolians. Not Filipinos.

I stay corrected.. well, my chinese forebears is I believe a Manchu.. I have a good mind to trace my Chinese ancestry as it's still used to this day but rare.. & known to be ancient.. even by chinese standards.

as for the food-- it's until I lived in London I really got a hint of all the different regional cuisines.. Yummy.. & I was lucky..as my companions were well traveled & versed.. of course, I love Sichuan & adore Peking duck-- though the one I was eating came from Mr chow's.. whatever..
one thing I noticed though --filipinos never got to learn how to make fresh hand made noodles.. boy! nothing like it.. I found a great restaurant in Vancouver chinatown that makes it for only $5 CAD.. sooooo good..... this is what the Japanese did-- learnt the mysteries of noodle making from the chinese & proceeded to make their own.. like udon & soba both I adore & somen.. hell, even the Italians got it from china.

I love to cook.. so I've a good knowledge about this.. & i tried to use Filipino noodles yrs ago in London.. ay.. no body.. I prefer Chinese,Japanese.. etc.. rice noodles whic the Viets love to use.. & I can get the fresh made ones at their markets.

i don't see the connection. even with these said influences and spread of buddhism or other indian religions, these does not prove that the Island was part of Greater India. some study of our history will easily prove that. india only had an influence here because of the vast trade relations with the pre-Hispanic natives, so is china, and the whole sout-east china. but that does not mean being part of any kingdom, except for mindanao and sulu.



i don't think the cinese only settled here after the spaniards came. we already have a deep trade relations with them way back then. in fact, i have visited cordillera once, and saw there some chinese influence in their language and culture, which suggests that they had lived with these people.

some people just don't get it, it's not us filipinos who claimed that we are part of greater india, it's the indian philosphers and historians themselves who claimed that. they having their repository of historical archives, interpreted that suvarnadvipa is the greater indonesian archipelago which includes the phil, malaysia and indonesia, while suvarnabhumi is the laos burma or indochinese areas.

and it's our conquerors the castilians who called us indians(indios) not much different to the american natives in both north and south america, they called those people indians.

and nope, the indians were bad mariners, it's the austronesian mariners and traders who had contact to various cultures including india. indians were bad mariners that the full extent of the chola empire could only extend up to the malay peninsula only, can't go over to sumatra etc.

it's because they thought, first, that when they landed in america, they were already in india. then, when they landed in these islands, they also thought they were again in india. so they initially called the natives indio. but can't blame them. it was the first time for humanity to sail around the world, and india was just a very mysterious land they coveted to reach.

Why is there a place called Visayas in the Philippines? There is a speculation that Visaya came from the word Vijaya and Visaya was ruled by Sultan Awang Alak Betatar from the Sri Vijaya Empire but he converted into Islam afterwards.

exactly my point.

Most of the "Cantonese related DNA" in filipinos arrived before Guangdong was sinified,so it is not really chinese..



Cordilleran culture remained unchanged since before the fall of the kingdom of Luzon,I admire them...



It is because they,visayans don't wanna admit that they are originally tribes from Luzon that are offshoots of bicolano,even in their folklore they firmly deny their true origins...

Filipinos and east indo are descended majorly from the migrants from yangtze area so are koreans,vietnamese and japanese that's the truth....


But gongs predominate luzon..

true.. I have the documentaries to cover this-- Woods cover an interesting segment to 'where' Sanskrit came from-- it appears it evolved from Central Asia from the Kushans.. really, BC and CE period it was Central Asia that played a huge part in civilization.. along the ancient Silk road.. let's not forget Afghanistan.. too.. as it was conquered by Persians & the Greeks.. and of course, there was always China.. can you imagine I think Tiberius sent an emissary to China during the Han dynasty ?? shoot! that's a big deal.. even before Marco Polo..

it wasn't so east Asia.. that came into prominence later much later.. around 12 th c entury thereabouts..

only idiots will claim filipinos are caucasians or eurasians. and idiots who will react that we are claiming this and that.

some people just don't get it, it's not us filipinos who claimed that we are part of greater india, it's the indian philosphers and historians themselves who claimed that. they having their repository of historical archives, interpreted that suvarnadvipa is the greater indonesian archipelago which includes the phil, malaysia and indonesia, while suvarnabhumi is the laos burma or indochinese areas.

We have indian influences because our austronesian forefathers who were traders and mariners had contact with them.

and it's the indian philosophers and historians and not us filipinos except some historian like pardo de tavera who claimed that Philippines was part of Greater India.

and the confusion is greater india is not a political entity like an empire or any political subdivisions it's more of a geographical concept.

from a hindu website... http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Suvarnabhumi.htm#s

quote:
Only Since World War II has the term Southeast Asia been used to describe the area to the east of India and to the south of China, which includes the Indo-Chinese Peninsula, the Malay Archipelago and the Philippines, roughly forming a circle from Burma through Indonesia to Vietnam. Before the term Southeast Asia became common usage, the region was often described as Further or Greater India, and it was common to describe the Indonesian region or Malay Archipelago as the East Indies. The reason may be found in the fact that, prior to Western dominance, Southeast Asia was closely allied to India culturally and commercially. The history of Indian expansion covers a period of more than fifteen hundred years.

This region was broadly referred to by ancient Indians as Suvarnabhumi (the Land of Gold) or Suvarnadvipa (the Island of Gold), although scholars dispute its exact definition. Sometimes the term is interpreted to mean only Indonesia or Sumatra. Arab writers such as Al Biruni testify that Indians called the whole Southeast region Suwarndib (Suvarnadvipa). Hellenistic geographers knew the area as the Golden Ghersonese. The Chinese called it Kin-Lin; Kin means gold. During the last two thousand years, this region has come under the influence of practically all the major civilizations of the world: Indian, Chinese, Islamic, and Western. Of these, Indian culture appears to have blended best with the indigenous culture.

The name Java comes from the Sanskrit Jawadwip, which means a (dvip) island (yawa) shaped like a barley corn. The Vedic Indians must have charted Java, Yawadvip, thousands of years ago because Yawadvip is mentioned in India's earliest epic, the Ramayana. The Ramayana reveals some knowledge of the eastern regions beyond seas; for instance Sugriva dispatched his men to Yavadvipa, the island of Java, in search of Sita. It speaks of Burma as the land of silver mines. The Agni Purana, along with many other Puranas, calls India proper as Jambudvipa as distinguished from Dvipantara or India of the islands or overseas India. Towards the end of the fifth century, Aryabhatta, the Indian astronomer, wrote that when the sun rose in Ceylon it was midday in Yavakoti (Java) and midnight in the Roman land. In the Surya Siddhanta reference is also made to the Nagari Yavakoti with golden walls and gates.

Seldom has the world seen such a protracted and pervasive cultural diffusion. It stands a monument to the vitality and magnetism of Indian civilization.
----
so obviously they are trying to blow up their ego. when it's our austronesian forefathers who were mariners and traders who brought their influences to our isles not from their traders or colonizers. there is no indian conquest recorded in our history it's more of an indianized confederacy of independent states wrongly interpreted by western historians as empire but a thallosocracy or confederacy called Srivijayan as coined by coedes but known to the early chinese writers and moslem writers as sanfotsi and zabag respectively. Majapahit was a successor to this Srivijaya.

I dunno, but as far as I know, the Chinese under General Ban Chao who was stationed on the coast of Caspian Sea with his 80,000 soldiers sent and emissary (I forgot his name) to Da Qin (Roman Empire) to establish some diplomatic relations but unfortunately was deceived by the Persians to come back to Central Asia (which he did). And later, Roman delegates arrived in China during the reign of Emperor Marcus Aurelius who succeeded the recently dead Emperor Antoninus Pius (called Antun by the Chinese).

But the more interesting part is the "Roman Legions in the East". Have you ever heard of that... they say that when Crassus was on a campaign against the Parthian Persian Empire, he was defeated and some of his soldiers where sent to the eastern bounds of Persia and later encountered by the Chinese. The two armies then fought and the "Testudo" formation was detailed by the Chinese, and again, the Roman captives where captured by the Chinese and sent them to Gansu. It is noted that a village in Gansu was called Liqian (sounded like Legion) and the inhabitants have some Caucasian features...

the whole article was here

if I'm not mistaken Guangdong/Guangzhou province used to be known as Canton..

as for India-- I still find it doubtful there's such a term as GREATER INDIA. though there were islands to have become Indianized states only meaning these islands adopted Indian culture/religion.goverment.. as it happened with borneo,Java etc.. it really never included Phil per se.. Phil got it from it's neighbours..
India' did a lot of trading with the Arabs..(who brought their goods to the Med & their hugest customers were the Romans)& of course China.. using what's called the Tea or southern Silk road to X'ian..then they went south to Hanoi, Indonesia. etc.. if by sea hugging around the so china sea to get to thailand, Hk as a port..

look at the map-- they did it from the Arabian Sea huggng around Kerala, to the Gulf of Bengal.. when they traded with Indonesia they also used the land silk road..

then there's the Northern silk road.. which stretchedfrom the Himalayan steppes to the desert through Central Asia.. Mindanao or any part of Phil were just far from these ports.

the reason I don't believe native filipinos then didn't do any or much trade with them-- bec it doesn't show in it's culture.. otherwise, Phil will not be so influenced by Indonesia.. from all the postings of Urls here-- all of that came from Indonesia.. Burma which was more active trading with India & China.. not even Brunei..so I'll say active trading came with Indonesia,little with china..

the active trading system came with the colonization of Spain. in the 16th century.. why they colonized Phil anyway cpm[peting with portugal & Britain.

interesting..worth checking out in more detail.. I love stuff like this--I shall keep this in mind when I come across this time period.

it's interesting as during the height & golden age of the Silk road-- around 5BC thereabouts when they finally connected these intermittent routes & made it one---- apparently Chinese soldiers in the thousands guarded the route of these caravans that reached way down to the middle east... can you just imagine the sight??/ I'd love Zhang Yimou do this in one of his films..

yeah, I just came across this info that a roman envoy went to china.. BC /CE period.. that should make it Tiberius reign .. I'm into roman history-- why I knew they traded with China & India.. those Romans ate very exotic food from the EAst.. well, so did Cleopatra..

you are living in a very myopic world.
you keep dissociating the philippines from its southeast asian neighbors as if prior the spanish advent, it was a no man's land.
our history with our neighbors prior to the colonization were intertwined. from the sultanate of brunei's intermarriage with the daughter of the kingdom of sapa or namayan and even before that the intermarriage between the majapahit nobilities with the lusung nobilities like the marriage of emperor angka wijaya with dayang or lady sasaban of the kingdom of sapa or namayan.
the lusung people were found having trading outposts in malacca sultanate in moluccas etc. portuguese explorers like tome pire conclude that the malaccans, moluccans, bruneians were one people with the luzon people because of similar customs and beliefs and that the lusung people were more emminent and more wealthy than the chins.

and as for greater india, i'll reiterate my post no.25 comment:
greater india terminology which is a geographical concept was created by the indian historians and philosophers to refer to those area east of india and south of china.

some people just don't get it, it's not us filipinos who claimed that we are part of greater india, it's the indian philosphers and historians themselves who claimed that and not us filipinos except some historian like pardo de tavera who claimed that Philippines was part of Greater India. they(the indian historians) having their repository of historical archives, interpreted that suvarnadvipa is the greater indonesian archipelago which includes the phil, malaysia and indonesia, while suvarnabhumi is the laos burma or indochinese areas.

We have indian influences because our austronesian forefathers who were traders and mariners had contact with them.

and the confusion is greater india is not a political entity like an empire or any political subdivisions it's more of a geographical concept.

from a hindu website... http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Suvarnabhumi.htm#s
quote:
Only Since World War II has the term Southeast Asia been used to describe the area to the east of India and to the south of China, which includes the Indo-Chinese Peninsula, the Malay Archipelago and the Philippines, roughly forming a circle from Burma through Indonesia to Vietnam. Before the term Southeast Asia became common usage, the region was often described as Further or Greater India, and it was common to describe the Indonesian region or Malay Archipelago as the East Indies. The reason may be found in the fact that, prior to Western dominance, Southeast Asia was closely allied to India culturally and commercially. The history of Indian expansion covers a period of more than fifteen hundred years.

This region was broadly referred to by ancient Indians as Suvarnabhumi (the Land of Gold) or Suvarnadvipa (the Island of Gold), although scholars dispute its exact definition. Sometimes the term is interpreted to mean only Indonesia or Sumatra. Arab writers such as Al Biruni testify that Indians called the whole Southeast region Suwarndib (Suvarnadvipa). Hellenistic geographers knew the area as the Golden Ghersonese. The Chinese called it Kin-Lin; Kin means gold. During the last two thousand years, this region has come under the influence of practically all the major civilizations of the world: Indian, Chinese, Islamic, and Western. Of these, Indian culture appears to have blended best with the indigenous culture.

The name Java comes from the Sanskrit Jawadwip, which means a (dvip) island (yawa) shaped like a barley corn. The Vedic Indians must have charted Java, Yawadvip, thousands of years ago because Yawadvip is mentioned in India's earliest epic, the Ramayana. The Ramayana reveals some knowledge of the eastern regions beyond seas; for instance Sugriva dispatched his men to Yavadvipa, the island of Java, in search of Sita. It speaks of Burma as the land of silver mines. The Agni Purana, along with many other Puranas, calls India proper as Jambudvipa as distinguished from Dvipantara or India of the islands or overseas India. Towards the end of the fifth century, Aryabhatta, the Indian astronomer, wrote that when the sun rose in Ceylon it was midday in Yavakoti (Java) and midnight in the Roman land. In the Surya Siddhanta reference is also made to the Nagari Yavakoti with golden walls and gates.

Seldom has the world seen such a protracted and pervasive cultural diffusion. It stands a monument to the vitality and magnetism of Indian civilization.
----
so obviously they are trying to blow up their ego. when it's our austronesian forefathers who were mariners and traders who brought their influences to our isles not from their traders or colonizers. there is no indian conquest recorded in our history it's more of an indianized confederacy of independent states wrongly interpreted by western historians as empire but a thallosocracy or confederacy called Srivijayan as coined by coedes but known to the early chinese writers and moslem writers as sanfotsi and zabag respectively. Majapahit was a successor to this Srivijaya.end of quote

Buddism starts in today's Nepal, they dont looks like the average indians

I think it's known-- Buddha or Prince Siddhartha??? was from Nepal.. so no, he wouldn't look th average Indian.. no..lol. Like every country on earth, people have different looks according to region..

as for you tres... I did say neighbours .. like indonesia.. I get lazy having to mention all those islands.. & isn't Brunei close to them??

in my first ppopsts at this forum-- I dd say-- I have an inkling those southern Phil islands(Palawan, Sulu, mindoro ) may have been once part of Indonesia.. as their native culture was/is so similar-- I was pooed pooed with this theory.. one can tell as they also became Muslim..

I really do believe this-- but not the rest of those islands though-- I really do think-- the Spaniards were the ones who changed the geographical fronteirs.. as remember.. they were after the spices ..which those indonesian islands were so rich of..that's as close as they could get--

also don't forget Burma.. or what was called Burma.. they were active then,too.

now, going by the Silk Road-- one can really timeline what was going on over there.. it wasn't until the 12th century or even slightly later when the maritime passage became more common & popular.. when they traded via ships.. so you can time-- when the rest of the FAr East became more developed.. & this would make sense.. this was also the period Islam came to those parts.. not earlier..

all these sultanates you mention really doesn't mean much to me-- as what matters is the period.. and I know Islamic kingdoms ? indianised kind of goverments-- came after the Mughuls conquered India.. & that would be the 14th century.. Buddhism came earlier though via the silk road & china.. why, Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc.. still are.. & this really didn't come to Phil.. no

buddhist monks went there to spread the word of Buddha..hence no temples. The monks used the land Silk Road..

I said this before & I'll say it again-- I never meant there was no culture in Phil before Spain.. of course, there was.. but all that's mentioned was only established starting around the 12th c entury.. even later.. that copperplate found dating 800-900Ad I bet they were Hindi.. & a small group that settled in Manila.. apparently they dissapeared soon after as that babayin script was dated around 14th c entury.. with nothing in between.. & was a work in progress when Spain arrived.. now, as I d id a bit of homewok-- that script.. it was apparently written on bamboo leaves.. as paper.. why there's no remnants left of it.. or bamboo sticks.. etched then awashed in ash.. to leave imprint.. this was in the 14th-16th centuries!~!!! the rest of the world was by then.. writing on PAPER.. now, see the difference???!!!

now, if they were writing on bamboo leaves in 1,000Bc-- I'll say.. great.. but the 15th c entury ad??? THAT'S RATHER behind no??!

just from this alone-- as babayin was derived from some defunct Javanese script-- it'll show how slow things were in getting to those islands & native Filipinos weren't able to invent their writing script on their own.. & ven then this babayin was being used by a small group in th southern island.. sulu, is it??


As for the Chinese.. well, bet the odd ones s ettled there when they were shipwrecked , trading etc.. but en masse?? not until the spanish occupation.. why Manila chinatown can be dated 16th century.. there's the clue right there.And China only made active trading after the Spaniards..

i posted this before: here's a url about baybayin & it's orgins..

http://www.mts.net/~pmorrow/bayeng1.htm

and opposing the fallacy
filipinos believe the Spaniards suppressed this .. on the contrary.. as the release of this 'doctrina christiana' will attest in the late 16th-early 17th century does prove.. it was already after the colonization of Spain.. this will NEVER happen if they were busy suppressing this native script--...wanting the natives left dumb & illiterate.

yet, also from the release of this doctrina it also shows the crude printing methods used .. remember this was really the early part of the 17th century. by then-- the chinese & elsewhere have perfected the printing & bounding of actual books.. actually, it started BC period..

as they say-- it's all relative..

Of course, that's simple logical thinking. and If Luzon remained muslim and the spaniards never converted the people and banned them from having maritime contacts(commercial, political and cultural) with their allies from the south, with the bruneians and the sulu people and they alone cornered the lucrative trade with the official sanctioned galleon trade; then, that inkling of yours will change to include also Luzon as well as visayas(part of sulu sultanate).


as for the very lucrative spice trade. The luzon people traded in Borneo and Malacca, and Southeast Asian historians note that the language of the Luzon people was one of the 80 different languages spoken in Malacca.
to quote from here about Malacca... http://www.archive.org/stream/travelsoflud...rtrich_djvu.txt
"the city is also populous, owing to the
ships which resort to it from the country of the Chijs [Chinese], the
Lequios [Japanese], the Lucoes [people of Luzon in the Philippines],
and other nations of the Orient. All these people bring so much wealth,
both of the East and the West, that Malacca seems a centre at which
are assembled all the natural productions of the earth, and all the arti-
ficial ones of man. On this account, although situated in a barren land,
it is, through an interchange of commodities, more amply supplied with
everything than the countries themselves from which they come.'" Id.
p. 245. "
When Magellan's ship arrived in Timor, Pigafetta noted that there were Luzoners there collecting sandalwood. The Luzon people had control of the spice islands because through Gatpandan, a native of Luzon. Gatpandan was a son of Dayang Maylag, princess of the Kingdom of Namayan or Sapa. Gatpandan had six children and were the founders of Ternate and Moluccas. http://article.melayuonline.com/?a=Rm1tL1U5bWh1MGY%3D=
Jose Rizal in his works the Tagalog nobility spoke of one of the descendants of this Tagalog-Kapampangan ruler named Sultan Zaide with his son Prince Tagulima, dying in exile, when was taken to Manila as prisoner in 1606. He had relied on the promises of the Jesuits and on the ambiguous safe conduct sent him by Governor Don Pedro de Acuña. Acuña forgot all generosity and justice and only remembered that it was better to seize one of the richest spice-islands and insure its possession by having in his power the royal family.
In the 1500s, Portuguese writers mention a colony of Luções or Luzon people in Malacca sponsored by the Sultan of Malacca. They included many important personnel in the government of the sultan and merchants like one Surya Diraja a pepper trader who annually sent 175 tons of the valued spice to China. The sultan also hired a Lusung fleet when he attempted to wrest control of his city from the Portuguese in 1525. Lusung ships carrying spices, gold, Chinese goods and other items regularly plied the seas of Southeast Asia and their pilots became important to the Portuguese in making contacts with both China and Japan. Lusung ships including some of Surya Diraja played a vital role in the first official Portuguese visit to China. Bras Bayão, the Portuguese crown representative in Brunei, recommended Lusung pilots as "discoverers" for missions beyond China to Japan and indeed these seafarers played that role in the first official visit to Japan in 1543.



those are your biases, no means of discussion or explanation would ever changed those...



the masses wrote on leaves and this was the time when the spaniards had deciminated much people and confiscated much wealth while most were hidden, and so naturally they would wrote on leaves. give them copper or paper, and it would be on it. The cultural link with our past with the copperplate inscription period which was the time of the Srivijayan was cut due to the Moslem tide as well as the vigorous indian redducciones of the conquistas.
Ask any chinese scholars where sanfoqui or sanfotsi is located and he will say the philippine isles. sanfotsi or zabag as it was known to the early moslem writers is where the chinese pilgrim I ching visited to learn more about buddhism. And coedes, a french historian, because he found the bukit inscription near Palembang, said that sanfotsi was Palembang and since the words srivijaya was seen in the inscription, connected that sanfotsi or zabag as the srivijayan empire. but earlier chinese chronicles stated that palembang or pali-fong was just a dependency of sanfotsi. Can you connect the dots, sanfotsi equals Luzon equals srivijayan. Ofcourse, one's biases would dim one's understanding.


parian was established during the time of the Lakandula, being partly chinese through Salalila and the Sultan of Brunei, gave concession to the chinese people. And the tributes to China happened during the time of the Brunei controlled Luzon. The bruneian royals bragged that they had blood ties with the Emperor of China as well as the Arab prophet Mohammed, and the Indian princess whom Alexander the Great impregnated. But basically the racial stock of the bruneian royals is bisayan. The info above came from a brunei website. Since you wouldn't believe if it came from a filipino one.

First off.. which emperor of china??? it should be well-documented with a name.. as the chinese emperors were such sticklers for recording their history.. I know-- they intermarried with Korean ladies.. as the emperor Yong? law??/ anyway he was responsible for building the forbidden city had his Grand Eunuchs go to Korea to choose concubines for his harem & his favourite was Korean who became his empress..

so without a name & more particulars.. I'll take that with a grain of salt.. no matter what the Brunei web site states..

as for those writing on leaves??? going by that URL-- that's what the spaniards found.. NO paper..

I do believe most if not all of that basic influences those islands got before spain did indeed come from those Indonesian/Bruineian neighbours.. stands to reason.. as the distance is close enough for that, taking into account how people traveled in that time period.. but all that suri etc period you talk a bout is still around 12 century thereabout period.. eve later-- as the titles sultan etc.. gives the time period.. Islamic.. as I keep saying.. that would be around the 14th century.. cannot be earlier.. as t's documented from India's own history. As it does state-- other so east countries adopted Indianized type of state..

as for what I wrote the Land silk road?? that's not a theory-- & not even up for discussion as that's part of it's history.. it's fact.

One can date back the first road that linked china to India around 2,000-1500BC-- they were doing trade even then.. China was already importing raw silk & tea,rice.. historians have already double checked this..proven. funny,though-- china exported their silk but it's in what's today's Pakistan who did heavy embroidery.. they are s till doing it.`` as for tea-- it's no greaT shakes that India also is known for it's tea.. they got it from china.

Buddhism came to so east Asia from Buddhist monks walking the silk Road to china & going on from there.. what's more, they left a lot of proof of this fact.. they left so much recording of this along the silk Road-- some of the oldest Buddha statuary( a lot in caves) can still be found there.



The Silk Road is a most profound,significant compass to know & understand how Asia developed.. one can never underestimate it's importance.. after 800Ad--10,000Ad it's land route waned( though Marco Polo came by the northern route called the window of the world via the himalayan steppes).. & more trade done by sea by then..as ships were also built to withstand longer sea voyages.. also from ecological reason.. the terrain of the land silk road changed & became more barren,desert which remains today.. but archeologists are finding complete kingdoms buried in sand there right now.. a lot of ruins..

as for spices..the first real producer of this was/is Kerala( also where the first African nomads first settled in to become Indians) in southern India.. it seems most of the world's spices as we know it came from there.. as they did major trade with ancient Arabs.. or the arabs were the middlemen who later brought it to North Africa, Med..later on, Portugal colonised them.. and had this trade route sewed up until recently.. amazing.. to this day-- their markets is still so abundant of these spices..

the other major source is of course-- Indonesia.. why the Spaniards were after them..

the Malaccas.. China.. later.. the Caribbean.. Mexico.

for spices?? Phil is not a great source of it,if at all.

all those lines of thingking of china's cultural greatness is out of the line in this discussion and the denigrating of other ethnic culture as inferior. for what matter is not the external but what's within. for ethnic, cultural or racial affiliation is only temporary and ends when the mortal frame withers and while the immortal soul would want to learn his or her lessons and undergoes another round of purification(possibly to learn the folly of ethnic biases), untill lessons are fully learned would finally merged with the creator.
i am impressed of china's greatest thinker, the founder of Taoism, the Great Lao Tse, teacher of Confucious.
any mago-mystic seeker will find out why. the soul that incarnated the man is in the league of the cosmic christ and buddha.
anyways.

about the connection of the chinese, bisayan, luzon, and brunei, and also the visit to the emperor of china by the sultan of brunei-luzon-sulu etc ...
read between the lines and it will be a long one and it might bore you... link: http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Pagan-Tribes-of-Borneo1.html
quote:
In the earliest years of the fourteenth century Bruni was a dependency
of Majapahit, but seems to have recovered its independence during the
minority of the Javan king. It is to this time that the tradition of
the Kapuas Malays ascribes the arrival of the Kayans in Borneo.[14]
Then Angka Wijaya extended the power of Majapahit over Palembang
in Sumatra, Timor, Ternate, Luzon, and the coasts of Borneo. Over
Banjermasin he set his natural son. In 1368 Javanese soldiers drove
from Bruni the Sulu marauders who had sacked the town. A few years
later the ungrateful king transferred his allegiance to China, and
not long afterwards, with calculating humility, paid tribute[15]
to Mansur Shah, who had succeeded to the throne of Malacca in 1374 A.D.

An extraordinary incident occurred at the beginning of the fifteenth
century, which again -- and for the last time -- draws our attention
to the Chinese court. The great Mongol conquerors, Genghis and Kublai
Khan, had little to do with the Malay Archipelago, though the latter
sent an unsuccessful expedition against Java in 1292. But the Ming
emperors, who were of Chinese blood, came to power in 1368 and soon
developed the maritime influence of the empire. For a few years there
was a continual stream of East Indian embassies. During the last
twenty years of the century, however, these became more rare, and in
1405 the Chinese emperor found it necessary to send a trusted eunuch,
by name Cheng Ho, to visit the vassal states in the south. This man
made several journeys, travelling as far as the shores of Africa,
and his mission bore immediate fruit. Among others, Maraja Kali,
king of Puni, although Cheng Ho does not appear to have called on
him in person, sent tribute in 1405; and so pleased was he with
the embroidered silk presented to him and his wife in return, that
he visited the Son of Heaven three years later. Landing in Fukien,
he was escorted by a eunuch to the Chinese capital amid scenes of
great rejoicing. The emperor received him in audience, allowing
him the honours of a noble of the first rank, and loaded him with
gifts. The same year, having accomplished his one great ambition of
"seeing the face of the Son of Heaven," this humbled monarch died in
the imperial city, leaving his son Hiawang to succeed to the throne of
Puni. Having induced the emperor to stop the yearly tribute of forty
katties of camphor paid by Puni to Java, and having agreed to send
tribute to China every three years, Hiawang returned home to take up
the reins of government. Between 1410 and 1425 he paid tribute six
times, besides revisiting the Chinese Court; but afterwards little
Puni seems to have again ignored her powerful suzerain.

It is probable that the Chinese colony in North Borneo which gave
its name to the lofty mountain Kina Balu (Chinese widow) and to
the Kina Batangan, the chief river which flows from it, was founded
about this time. Several old writers seem to refer to this event,
and local traditions of the settlement still survive. The Brunis and
Idaans (a people in the north not unlike the Bisayas) have legends
differing in detail to the effect that the Chinese came to seize the
great jewel of the Kina Balu dragon, but afterwards quarrelled about
the booty and separated, some remaining behind. The Idaans consider
themselves the descendants of these settlers, but that can only
be true in a very limited sense. Both country and people, however,
show traces of Chinese influence.

There is good evidence that the Chinese influence and immigration
were not confined to Bruni and the northern end of the island. In
south-west Borneo there are traces of very extensive washings of
alluvial gravels for gold and diamonds. These operations were being
conducted by Chinese when Europeans first came to the country; and
the extent of the old workings implies that they had been continued
through many centuries. Hindu-Javan influence also was not confined
to the court of Bruni, for in many parts of the southern half of
Borneo traces of it survive in the custom of burning the dead, in low
relief carvings of bulls on stone, and in various gold ornaments of
Hindu character.

The faith of Islam and the arrival of Europeans have profoundly
affected the manners and politics of the East Indies, and now it is
difficult to picture the state of affairs when King Hiawang revisited
China to pay homage to the Emperor. In 1521, within a hundred years
of that event, Pigafetta, the chronicler of Magellan's great exploit,
was calling on the "Moorish" king of Bruni, in the course of the
first voyage round the world. The change had come. Of the two new
influences, so potent for good and evil, Mohammedanism made its
appearance first. The struggle for religious supremacy ended in the
complete victory of the Prophet's followers in 1478, when Majapahit
was utterly destroyed, thirty years before the capture of Malacca by
the Portuguese.

How early the Arab doctrines were taught in Bruni is impossible
to state with any precision. Local tradition ascribes their
introduction to the renowned Alak ber Tata, afterwards known as Sultan
Mohammed. Like most of his subjects this warrior was a Bisaya, and in
early life he was not a Mohammedan, not indeed a civilised potentate
at all, to judge by conventional standards; for the chief mark of
his royal dignity was an immense chawat, or loin-cloth, carried as
he walked by eighty men, forty in front and forty behind. He is the
earliest monarch of whom the present Brunis have any knowledge, a fact
to be accounted for partly by the brilliance of his exploits, partly
by the introduction about that time of Arabic writing. After much
fighting he subdued the people of Igan,[16] Kalaka, Seribas, Sadong,
Semarahan, and Sarawak,[17] and compelled them to pay tribute. He
stopped the annual payment to Majapahit of one jar of pinang juice,
a useless commodity though troublesome to collect. During his reign
the Muruts were brought under Bruni rule by peaceful measures,[18]
and the Chinese colony was kept in good humour by the marriage of
the Bruni king's brother and successor to the daughter of one of the
principal Chinamen.

Alak ber Tata is said to have gone to Johore,[19] where he was
converted[20] to Islam, given[21] the daughter of Sultan Bakhei and
the title of Sultan, and was confirmed in his claim to rule over
Sarawak and his other conquests.[22]

Sultan Mohammed was succeeded by his brother Akhmad, son-in-law of
the Chinese chief, and he was in turn succeeded by an Arab from Taif
who had married his daughter. Thus the present royal house of Bruni is
derived from three sources -- Arab, Bisaya, and Chinese. The coronation
ceremony as still maintained affords an interesting confirmation of
this account. On that occasion the principal minister wears a turban
and Haji outfit, the two next in rank are dressed in Chinese and Hindu
fashion, while the fourth wears a chawat over his trousers to represent
the Bisayas; and each of these ministers declares the Sultan to be
divinely appointed. Then after the demonstration of loyalty the two
gongs -- one from Menangkabau, the other from Johore -- are beaten,
and the Moslem high priest proclaims the Sultan and preaches a sermon,
declaring him to be a descendant of Sri Turi Buana, the Palembang
chief who founded the early kingdom of Singapore in 1160 A.D., who
reigned in that island for forty-eight years, and whose descendants
became the royal family of Malacca.

The Arab Sultan who succeeded Akhmed assumed the name Berkat and ruled
the country with vigour. He built a mosque and converted many of his
subjects, so that from his reign Bruni may be considered a Mohammedan
town. To defend the capital he sank forty junks filled with stone
in the river, and thus formed the breakwater which still bars the
entrance to large ships. This work rose above the water level, and
in former times bristled with cannon. Sultan Berkat was succeeded by
his son Suleiman, whose reign was of little consequence.

Neglecting Suleiman, we come now to the most heroic figure in Bruni
history, Sultan Bulkiah, better known by his earlier name, Nakoda
Ragam. The prowess of this prince has been celebrated in prose and
verse. He journeyed to distant lands, and conquered the Sulu islands
and eastern Borneo. Over the throne of Sambas he set a weak-minded
brother of his own. He even sent an expedition to Manila, and on the
second attempt seized that place. Tribute poured into his coffers from
all sides. His wife was a Javanese princess, who brought many people
to Bruni. These intermarried with the Bisayas
end of quote----

see here about the bisayan, srivijayan, majapahit, angka vijaya, sultan Alak ber Tata(Sultan Awang Alak Betatar), luzon, brunei, chinese connections.
link...
http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Pagan-Tribes-of-Borneo1.html

ha.. ha.. excerpted from a book???/

see, that makes more sENSE.. with the time period.

this is w hy I keep saying-- Phil culture is quite young, it was only really developing & taking shape around the 12th century onwards.. & the real development around 14th century.

it's interesting I find-- as I've been a history geek for decades, you can see how different parts of the world developed.. it goes in different time periods/sections.. once one is aware of the timelines.. easier to see how things happen & go into particulars & details from there.. why I'm a stickler for periods.. otherwise, you get confused.. jumping around & nothing makes sense..

as I've seen.. Phil being islands made it harder to be e asily accessible .. why it took a much longer time to get going.. if one part of it's fronteir was land. it would have developed sooner.. as what happened to it's neighbours.. it's not an accident the southern islands have/had more intercourse with the rest of so east asia..

please do your research. do i have to spoonfeed you everytime?see the above link...
The Pagan Tribes of Borneo by Charles Hose and William McDougall
and i think there's no more sense furthering when has already closed his or her door for a very professional discussion. it will just be a waste...

PS: I'm not denigrating any culture but one has to be realistic-- one can never discuss the history of Asia without the ties & influences of China & India.. both being sub continents-- & both being the 2 oldest civilizations on earth still existing & evolving?? they cannot be ignored..

that's just the way it is..

besides, what does spices have to do with it?? I' was just stating facts.. they found lapis lazuli in Persia or Afghanistan & they made heavy trade with this too.. you can find lapiz in the death mask of Pharoahs.

luzon island doesn't have the spices but they were the traders as Pigafetta, Pire and other Portuguese explorers noted that the Lucoes were at the Malacca, Moluccas and Timor looking for spices, trading and distributing spices to China, Japan and India via Malacca trading post(where Singapore is nearly located)
Mindanao accdg to the Portuguese explorers was called the Land of Cloves. Moluccas and the spice island were ruled by Luzon kings(Sultan Zaide, a descendant of GatPandan) until the conquistas came. http://article.melayuonline.com/?a=Rm1tL1U5bWh1MGY%3D=

for the spice routes... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/spiceroutes.htm

speaking of pharoahs, in mummification they use sukang sasa or nipa palm vinegar found only in tropical east indies and transplanted in abyssinia(ethiopia) and/or nigeria.

btw: Primordial abyssinia or Phoeni(Punt) as Prof. Arysio Nunes dos Santos claim was in Suvarnadvipa or India Major which include places like Java Major(Sabah), Java minor(today's Java) or our very own Kingdom of Sapa(Sabang) and that the queen of sheba of the king solomon's fame was from this primordial abyssinia.

yeah, I have a great book on spices & how it changed civilization-- it was based on a s eries shown on Brit ch 4 when I lived there--I misplaced it here in my book shelves now don't know where it is. as I'm too lazy to take things down.. & look...one can trace civilization via food & religion or religious beliefs..

this series showed Indonesia & how they harvested nutmeg, mace,cloves, cinnamon etc.. & they still use the same ancient technique --all by hand to this day.



there was another History special on the Queen of Sheba-- so funny,you'd bring her up.yeah,
Abyssinia has a great history as they gave asylum to the Jews when they were kicked out of
Egypt so even in ancient times-- they intermarried.

if I were you-- I'd stay away from all these local so-called theories of local historians.. as they really have no basis nor give any time periods for all these theories.. IT HASN't BEEN PROVEN.. mainly, they just confuse people with all that.. most of them were already laughed off by international historians even during the early part of the 20th century in the most part..
there'as no such thing as Major India.. it's only INDIA.. I've been watching this Woods special on India & I haven't heard him mouthing off about this & he covered the whole spectrum of Indian history until the Brits left..

what was also used for mummification was cloves,cinnamon I think-- those with strong scents.. also essential oils.. a lot of those..

what is really fascinating is Kerala.. I happened to watch a BBC cookery series recently on this-- as it's Kerala that influenced greatly the cuisine of so east asia.. all those curries made with coconut milk etc.. came from them as they are a great producer of coconuts which grow in great abundance in that region. they use coconut oil for all their cooking. The rest of India isn't like this as their food is regional & more influenced by the Perisians even the Greeks( yoghurt) they make tuba,too or something very close to it.. bet tuba came from them..so that coconut vinegar I bet came from them-- as it's their spices that was being traded & brought to North Africa & the Med from BC period. And their region shows it & proves it to t his day-- they were taught by the ancient
Arab traders how to build ships & they still do it exactly to this day without any blueprint-- all just by eye.. Woods went there..& showed how they do it.

in mummification, they used the nipa palm vinegar to disinfect the internal organs from spoilage and used natron(basically salt and baking soda)to dehydrate the body for 40 days. they used frankincense and myrhh as spices as annointing and for its preservative effect.


ha ha!
The late Prof. Arysio Nunes dos Santos was not a Filipino and had never been to the Philippines.
His bio:
Prof. Arysio Nunes Santos is a Nuclear Physicist with a Ph. D. in Nuclear Physics and a Free-Docency in Physical-Chemistry. In the course of his protracted professional career as a scientist, Prof. Santos also worked as a geologist and climatologist, disciplines he came to master, making substantial contributions to Ice Age Theory, particularly in what concerns Catastrophism and the reality of the Flood, the cataclysm which ultimately led to the demise and sunking of the Sunda continent.

Prof. Santos also wrote several other books and articles on Science and Engineering, as well as on arcane subjects such as Symbolism, Alchemy, the Holy Grail, Comparative Mythology and Religion, etc.. Pursuing these studies with a multi-disciplinary approach based on both the Exact and the Human Sciences, as well as the more traditional disciplines, the author finally managed to discover Atlantis’ true location; to prove its identity with Eden and the other traditional Paradises, and to reconstruct in detail the secret history of the Lost Continent described by Plato and several other ancient sages.

A gifted amateur linguist, Prof. Santos masters several tongues, including Greek, Latin, Sanskrit and Dravida, which are essential for the understanding of the ancient myths on Paradise and its destruction by the Universal Flood. This knowledge has enabled him to decipher Etruscan and Pelasgian, the languages of the predecessors of the Greeks and the Romans in the Mediterranean region. Prof. Santos traced these languages back to Sanskrit and Dravida, establishing an ineluctable connection with the East Indies.
end of quote----

so he's Spanish??

The Etruscans pre-dates the Romans.In fact, the Romans took a lot of Etruscan culture.(as the Romans were so jealous of them esp their wine making). & their art ..I'm just sure who was earlier the Greeks or them...it was the Romans who annihilated them.( they sure did this to a lot of cultures.. the Carthagians was another bec of Hannibal)

anyway-- there's so much theories on Atlantis.. that's still up for graps-- every year, there's practically a new discovery to maybe where it can be.. BERMUDA TRIANGLE, ANOTHER says the Azores, it goes on & on..it will always be the great mystery.

yeah, I've seen some mummies at the British Museum-- scared the hell out of me-- as they have this huge display exactly how they found it.. dirt & all.,. all teeth & this skull.. yikes.. & they also have some of the organs in jars.. another yikes! I also saw the exhibition of Tutankhamen at LA County Museum .. so saw that famous gold death mask with Lapiz.. impressive... he's really the last true royal Pharoah.. as he left no heir & was murdered.. it left the throne open a generation later for the army's m general who proclaimed himself Pharoah.. the start of the dysnastic of the Ramses.. the first.. father of the famous great RamsesII.

the British have so much of their antiquities bec Carter who found the Tomb & Lord Carnavon took a lot of it back to Britain & donated it after they died..same with the French bec of Napoleon who opened Egypt to the West in late 18th century.. or early 19th(it made him the First Consul of France ).. as they were closed off after the downfall of the Romans.. when they became Islamic,in fact.. & the rest of North Africa.. they were left alone for some centuries.

yes, he was a brazilian.

lots of pseudo sciences and ufo stuffs got mixed up with genuine knowledge, that it is now difficult to separate the truth from the chaff.
there's no bermuda triangle or aliens on the site of the brazilian professor.
sometimes the disinfo was made deliberate and spinned from the you know who. and it's up to the intuitive mind and inner insight to show him the key to the gate of initiation to what is unkown.

here's another guaranteed zero atlantis freaks and conspiracy theories crap...
http://koenraadelst.voi.org/reviews/atlantis.html
quote:
An Atlantis in the Indian Ocean
(Review of Stephen Oppenheimer's Eden in the East)

Koenraad Elst



One of the many insulting epithets thrown at AIT disbelievers is that they are no better than "Atlantis freaks". Actually, this is not entirely untrue. Some AIT skeptics who have applied their minds to reconstructing ancient history, have indeed thought of centres of human habitation in locations now well below sea-level. When Proto-Indo-European was spoken, the sea level was still recovering from the low point it had reached during the Ice Age, about 100 metres lower than the present level. It was in the period of roughly twelve to seven thousand years ago that the icecaps melted and replenished the seas, so that numerous low-lying villages had to be abandoned.

After all, it is a safe bet that more than half of mankind lived in the zone of less than 100 m above sea level. In the context of the present debate on global warming, it is said that a rise in sea level of just one metre would be an immense catastrophe for countries like Bangla Desh or the Netherlands. The Maledives would completely disappear with a rise of only a few metres. But more importantly, most big population centres today are located just above sea level: Tokyo, Shanghai, Kolkata, Mumbai, London, New York, Los Angeles etc. If the sea level would rise 100 m, most population centres including entire countries would become a sunken continent, a very real Atlantis. Consequently, there is nothing far-fetched in assuming the existence of population centres and cultures, 10 or 15 thousand years ago, in what are now submarine locations on the continental shelf outside our coastlines.

In a recent book, Eden in the East: the Drowned Continent of Southeast Asia (Phoenix paperback, London 1999 (1998)), Stephen Oppenheimer has focused on one such part of the continental shelf: the region between Malaysia, Sumatra, Java, Borneo, Thailand, Vietnam, China and Taiwan, which was largely inhabitable during the Ice Age. Thinking that this was then the most advanced centre of civilization, he calls it Eden, the Biblical name of Paradise (from Sumerian edin, "alluvial plain"), because West-Asian sources including the Bible do locate the origin of mankind or at least of civilization in the East. In some cases, as in Sumerian references, this "East" is clearly the pre-Harappan and Harappan culture, but even more easterly countries seem to be involved.
According to Oppenheimer, the Southeast-Asian Atlantis, provisionally called Sundaland because it now is the Sunda shelf, was the world leader in the Neolithic Revolution (start of agriculture), using stones for grinding wild grains as early as 24,000 ago, more than ten thousand years older than in Egypt or Palestine. Before and especially during the gradual flooding of their lowland, the Sundalanders spread out to neighbouring lands: the Asian mainland including China, India and Mesopotamia, and the island world from Madagascar to the Philippines and New Guinea, whence they later colonized Polynesia as far as Easter Island, Hawaii and New Zealand.

Oppenheimer aligns with the archaeologists against the linguists in the controversy about the homeland of the Austronesian language family (Malay, Tagalog, Maori, Malgasy etc.): he locates it in Sundaland and its upper regions which now make up the coasts of the Southeast-Asian countries, whereas most linguists maintain that southern China was the land of origin. Part of the argument concerns chronology: Oppenheimer proposes a higher chronology than Peter Bellwood and other out-of-China theorists. My experience with IE studies makes me favour a higher chronology, for new findings (e.g. that "pre-IE" peoples like the Pelasgians and the Etruscans, not to speak of the Harappans, turn out to have been earlier "Aryan" settlers) have consistently been pushing the date of the fragmentation of PIE back into the past.
It is quite certain that some of these Austronesians must have landed in India, some on their way to Madagascar, some to stay and mix with the natives. Hence the presence of some Austronesian words in Indian languages of all families, most prominently ayi/bayi, "mother" (as in the Marathi girls' names Tarabai, Lakshmi-bai etc.), or words for "bamboo", "fruit", "honey". More spectacularly, linguists like Isidore Dyen have discerned a considerable common vocabulary in the core lexicon of Austronesian and Indo-European, including pronouns, numerals (e.g. Malay dva, "two") and terms for the elements. Oppenheimer doesn't go into this question, but diehard invasionists might use his findings to suggest an Aryan invasion into India not from the northwest, but from the southeast.

But he does mention the legend of Manu Vaivasvata saving his company from the flood and sailing up the rivers of India to settle high and dry in Saptasindhu. Clearly, the origins of Vedic civilization are related to the post-Glacial flood, probably the single biggest migration trigger in human history.
Another language family originating in some part of Sundaland was Austro-Asiatic, which includes the Mon-Khmer languages in Indochina (its demographic point of gravity being Vietnam) but also Nicobarese and the Munda languages of Chotanagpur, at one time possibly spoken throughout the Ganga basin. It is the Mundas who brought rice cultivation from Southeast Asia to the Ganga basin, whence it reached the Indus Valley towards the end of the Harappan age (ca. 2300 BC). In this connection, it is worth noting that Oppenheimer confirms that "barley cultivation was developed in the Indus Valley" (p.19), barley being the favourite crop of the Vedic Aryans (yava). Unlike the Mundas who brought rice cultivation from eastern India and ultimately from Southeast Asia to northwestern India, and unlike the Indo-European Kurgan people whose invasion into Europe can be followed by means of traces of the crops they imported (esp. millet), the Vedic Aryans simply used the native produce. This doesn't prove but certainly supports the suspicion that the Aryans were native to the Indus Valley.
Stephen Oppenheimer makes a very detailed and very strong case for the importance of the culture of sunken Sundaland for the later cultures in the wide surroundings. India too certainly benefited of certain achievements imported from there. end of quote

ha.. so you're a n Atlantis freak??? whatever.. I'm not really but IF there's something interesting on the History ch I'll watch it.. when I first got this History International I was so hooked.. as I love it.. bec they do show film & when one read bout it.. often it can s till be difficult to figure it out.. but film shows the missing link..

so not to digress.. that Oppenheimer theory is more astute.. as from this Woods documentary on India-- it did say-- it was ecology that brought the monsoon & from it.. having to deal with the change of the Himalayas,.. the Gange Plains. came about . why the Gange River holds such mystical meaning & properties to the Indians.. as it flows right through it.. ( just like the Yangtze & the Mekong ..both starting from the snow melting from the Himalayas!) the Harrapans can be found in India's history.. BC period..

oh rice came from china.. even Indians agree on that one.. it's interesting to know what the chinese have contributed to civilization-- things we take so much for granted.. as India & china were such early trading partners-- a lot of what they traded with with china-- they adapted & made their own.. like rice.. Indians use basmati rice.. more aromatic & mostly harvested by the Himalayan steppes.. I love this rice.. I had some today-- it's long grain.. same with tea.. came from the chinese -- there's a chinese legend about this ow it was found or used by some Lady etc.. close to the Silk Road.. ( these villagers still harvest it according to ancient rituals today-- why so expensive) & from here Tea was borne.. & of course, traded with India & didn't take long they were planting it themselves.. etc..

it's all fascinating- I want to find a bio on India .. fascinating country-- they discovered so many things even before the Greeks wnhy they make such good astrologers.. & astronomy way before the west with Galileo.. they inented ZERO. brought back to to Asia Minor hence the Med & beyond by their ancient Arab trading partners..

India is not ancient for nothing.. another one though we tend to forget it now- is Afghanistan.. too bad they are more known for terrorism .. as they have quite a culture & history.. damn TaLIBANS ruined & buldozed the remnants of their ancient culture like one of the oldest statuary of Buddha.. that Kyber ?> Pass was just as significant as the Silk rd during BC era.. & yes even then they were getting stoned from their poppies.. lol.. & yes. Indians used betel nuts.. & the Incas used this too-- to keep from getting sick bec of it's height...

I just ordered A 8 part series called ENGENEERING AN EMPIRE from the History ch.. after I saw ancient Persia, France & russia.. I want to see the rest.. wh will include China & Mexico ... so I'll pick it up tom.. it ill be fascinating.. I'm interested to see how the Americas came to be.. that Sham what's it-- dismissed the Aztec as stupid?? far from it.. as they built an empire from arrid land.. it's part of this set..

oh I just re-read that Oppenheimer theory-.. well, first off it's established the first African tribe that came to 'Asia ' settled in Kerala, southern India-- what's more they have traditions they have kept for thousands of years ,like Language-- all oral .. like bird sounds, they have also checked the DNA of the descendants --amazing, as they never moved out of that region.. consiering India boast of some 5-7,000 yrs active civilization- & china like 3,000 or more.. it's pretty easy to figure out.. where the development of Eastern Asia was centered.. as the rest of So EAst Asia as later known branched off from here..

Again, as I keep repeating--- nothing 'supports' all these theories that makes me believe there was much going on 5,000 yrs bc in those parts.. otherwise, it will show in it's customs..

and Like Woods uncovered as discovered by an english liguistic professor.. he uncovered the Key to Sanskrit & it came from Kushans.. from Central Asia .. they invaded Afghanistan then India.. with antiquities in a Kabul museum which was later destroyed by the Talibans.. but Woods was able to see it before that happened so there's film done on it..

so this Oppenheimer theory is debunked right there about Sanskrit.

As for the Garden of Eden.. hmm... again a theologian/archeologist figured out the mystery in unraveling the location of it-- by going bac to the original ancient Hebrew script of the Old Testament-- the way it was written & from the help of computer graphucs showed what it may have looked eons ago.. & pinpointed it's location to what's now part of Northern Iran.. or Persia.

when it comes to the bible-- ay.. it was all centered in North Africa & the Middle east.. the Med.. the apostle thomas was proven to have gone to India.. even Jesus.. that's as far as that goes..

frankly, don't think anything much was going on in so east Asia 2,000bc.. there were tribes.. yes.. but pretty primitive existence.. living in caves.. as to disprove this Oppenheimer theory-- if any of that was true.. then those countries wouldn't have adapted or evolved from chinese or Indian culture.. from there alone one can see which cultures were dominant..

what's amazing is/were the Mongolians.. from the steppes.. nomads??? so much tribal fighting?? then producing Genghis KHan?? who was a visionary.. that guy had modern ideas.. continuing to conquer the mighty China?? Afghanistan?? parts of India down to the Mid East??? ruled Russia for centuries??? THEY WERE SOMETHING ELSE.. then just like that after the failure of Kublai's invasion of Japan.. they never landed as a huge storm killed thousands.. kicked out of china then Russia .. they returned to 'old life'.. to their nomadic way of life..

i cant believe that you guys are still talking about this.

listen there was no indian influence in philipines

India is India.

SouthEast Asia is not India.

Those Westerners who call "Dutch East Indies" , "East Indies" , etc etc, they were stupid and ignorant, so of course they did that. Why do you want to follow stupid Westerners and agree with them?

Hinduism btw is all dead in SEA. Except for some small parts, for instance in Bali. Other than that, there is no Hindu majority SEA nation.

Buddhism originates in Nepal, it was invented by a Nepali prince.
However I wouldnt say Buddhism is an Indian influence, it's already too long ago and it's irrelevant, and dont forget today India almost have no Buddhists, except for Sri Lanka.
So Buddhism also cannot be used in any meaningful way to connect to India.

Other than this, most importantly SEA nations have their own civilization, thoughts, philosophers, kingdoms, culture, native religions, and so on. Even though there are trades and contacts with India, dont be fooled into accepting the notion of "East India", "Dutch East Indies", etc, these are insulting and belittling the SEA nations.

lol where is greater america?

britney spears and 50 cent were great generals

well i actually read most of the thread this time. some members in filipino chat seem VERY knowledgeable in history. props. ill probably have to re-read like two more times to understand everything lol.