Seems like Manchuria has nothing do with them at all.
It beats me


Anyway, just a shoutout.


peace

well, japan puppeted it for a time. they had a lot of emigrants that went there. most of the early industry was japanese built. If chinese feel we have some right to mongolia, just imagine japanese feeling.

koreans? they feel like their ancestors lived there and got chased out.

During WW2, Japanese generals called Manchuria the "lifeline of Japan".

Japan was sought by Japan during WWII, because Manchuria had a strategic location and offered natural resources. I'm not sure about Korean but I'm guessing the ancestor thing.

The Japanese want it for Lebensraum. In their eyes Japan is too small and prone to disaster - not exactly a land from which premier nations are built.

The Koreans have a sentimental attachment to it. Their nationalist historians like to trace Korean roots to a series of tribal confederations/kingdoms in Manchuria (Gojoseon, Goguryeo, etc.) So, they like to think that the land they lost over a thousand years ago might still be reclaimed. It gives Korean nationalism a goal to strive towards.

As for ourselves (Chinese), Manchuria is a strategic and economic acquisition. It is a gateway to the North China plains, and has historically been the land of our enemies and invaders. Our possession of it today symbolizes our triumph over them, and keeps China safe. Manchuria in another nation's hands threatens us greatly - as four out of the five foreign dynasties that managed to conquer parts of China (or all of it) rode out of this land, and it was a general headache for past emperors. To prevent a repeat of history, Manchuria must not be allowed to fall into other nations' hands. To this end, we should develop the region's economy and encourage even more patriotic Chinese to migrate into the area.

Manchuria is definitely strategic for us. It means we get to bottle up both mongolia and korea, our two most favorite neighbors

In Han Chinese hands our history in Manchuria really begins after 1912. There's even a drama series about this migration 闯关东. Japanese followed very soon in the 20's and 30's. This is another reason Japan feels naggy about Manchuria. Don't forget in 60's chinese discovered 大庆 oil fields in manchuria, propelling us to become Asia's biggest oil producer. If Japan knew there was oil there in the 40's they wouldn't have needed to attack pearl harbor... Manchuria is a national pain for Japanese. They just try not to think about it.

^ Solid post.

Excellent post.

Although I dislike China's occupation of Manchuria, I agree with this posting - it sums up well China's strategic interests and plans in Manchuria.

By the way, how many Manchurians speak manchurian today? I read from China Daily that there are few hundred old women -manzu ren - speak Manchurian? Is that true?

First is Manchuria and Manchurians to vanish, next is Southern Mongolia and Southern Mongolians, then, Tibet and Eastern Turkestan. That is why Dalai Lama is mad about Chinese occupation of Tibet and migration of Han Chinese there. So sad! But I do not blame the Chinese. The Chinese are smart people, and they know that they must fight for these lands until their last drop of blood. On the other hand, Tibetans are naive and stupid - they think that their praying to their Buddhas will liberate their land from Chinese occupation. That will not happen. No nation should give up their piece of land without fight. In this sense, I really admire the Chinese people - they are smart.

There is no "occupation" of China's Dongbei anymore than an American occupation of New England. No foreign power is capable of wresting any territory away from China.

Then We forgot to ask what those Manchurians want? I know they don't want Korea and Japan.
They wanted China.

China's presence in Manchuria is about as much of an "occupation" as Europe's presence in America, probably even less so since Han Chinese were let in by the previous, legal owners of the land (Manchus) themselves, whereas America was taken from the Red Indians by a combination of violence and deception.

Time for a history lesson. The reality is that at the end of the 19th century, there was a race between the regional powers (China, Russia, Japan) for possession of Manchuria, which up to that point had been sparsely populated - like America, Canada, and Australia before European colonization. Yes, there were native people, but by the standards of the 19th century, there was room for many more people, so it was up to the competition to see who would ultimately control it.

The Manchu rulers themselves, who by that point were sinicized and faced with increasing pressure from the Chinese revolutionaries for being ineffective rulers and losing Chinese land to foreign empires, decided as a last ditch strategic effort to migrate Han Chinese into Manchuria in the hopes that it'll allow them to keep a hold of it. The Manchus eventually capitulated anyways; the Japanese, meanwhile, were irritated to no ends that the League of Nations refused to allow them to colonize Manchuria, even though their own country was overflowing with population (this policy was for the League's own interests - they didn't want the Japanese to colonize China, which at the time was a much easier country to boss around and exploit than Japan). Through independent action by the Kwantung Army, the Japanese flaunted the League of Nations and conquered Manchuria anyways, swaying a number of Qing officers (including the "last emperor" Puyi, even though the Qing had already abdicated by that point) to their Manchukuo project, by which they intended to legitimize the creation of a new state into which they could then mass import Japanese as a ruling caste.

While the Japanese gained political and military control of Manchuria, the Han Chinese population, by that point, was already the vast majority in the area (something like 30 million). Most of this population consisted of farmers, which the Japanese treated like second-class citizens - kicking them off good land and offering it instead to new arrivals from Japan. All the while they did this, the Japanese were propagandizing that they were building in Manchuria a multi-ethnic nation where everyone was equal, which, as you might imagine, wasn't very effective among the Han Chinese because the reality on the ground was so different. At any case, the Japanese planned to import some five million or more Japanese into Manchuria within a few decades and began industrializing the area. Many Koreans (about a million or so) were also in Manchuria at this time; some were natives to the area, others were labor imported by the Japanese.

But Japan's vision of a new frontier for the Yamato race was not to be. Within two decades, Japan began losing the war. The Soviets, who resented the Japanese for defeating Russia earlier, took control of Manchuria and then handed it over to the Chinese Communists as a gesture of Communist brotherhood. Upon hearing of the Soviet advance, and knowing that they were hated by both the Russians and the Chinese, the Japanese migrant population (which I think at the time numbered around a million) fled Manchuria; in the chaos of their flight, they left many of their children behind. These children were later adopted by Chinese parents and many of them eventually went back to Japan once the Japanese instituted a program for repatriation. The Communists redistributed Manchurian land to loyal Chinese, and, making use of the industrial infrastructure the Japanese left behind, began using it as a base of operations from which to conquer the rest of China from the Nationalists. Koreans were allowed to stay partly as a gesture of goodwill towards the Korean Communists.

Throughout this period, the Manchus themselves tried their best to survive amidst the immense upheavals that were taking place in China. Having lost their status as a ruling caste, and fearing reprisal from the Han Chinese who suffered under them, many Manchus essentially abandoned their Manchu identity and faded into the Han Chinese population. Some of the elites went over to the Japanese side, but switched over again when the Chinese took over. There was a significant amount of intermarriage between Han and Manchu, to the extent that most Manchus could probably claim descent from both, and did so at their own convenience. For political reasons, they did not under the ROC (which was very anti-Manchu), and even not under the early PRC. Later, the PRC adopted the multi-ethnic China ideology and preferential policies for minorities; consequently, Manchus began reclaiming their ethnic status, but by that point many probably thought it wasn't worth it and either stayed as Han Chinese or claimed to be Manchu on paper but were practically Han Chinese. Today, Manchus make up about 10% of the population in Manchuria, or, perhaps more appropriately, Northeast China (Dongbei).

End of history lesson.

Koreans dont want Manchuria nor is such a belief encouraged/supported by the government, media, mainstream etc.

There are however a lot of delusional Chinese nationalists who believe theres a secret plot to invade China and take Manchuria. Pure fantasy and paranoia. No different from those fabricated lies by Chinese netizens who believe Koreans are trying to steal Confucius, Chinese characters, Soymilk, Mao Zedong, Michael Phelps, the moon and slice bread.

Its like punching a brick wall and getting mad at it for hurting your hand. In Chinas case they make up lies about Korea in order to get mad at them and cry about Koreans hurting their feelings.

Manchu decided to take over China.

Thats the link between you two.

Korean politicians have asked for parts of Manchuria to be "returned" to them before. Do a search of the literature. You might learn something.



There's also the fact of intermarriage. Unpleasant, I know, but there are theories that Kangxi, the great Manchu emperor, had a Han mother, which would make him at least half-Han.

The story is murkier than you imagine.

why they don't want to take over korea and Japan? yet both wanted Manchuria real bad. Seems like one sided love??

The difference is, Korea and Japan would want to take over Manchu.
But hell no, we don`t want to be taken over by Manchu like China.

Enjoy your Manchu love, Han Chinese.

They are still in the minority. There are Japanese politicians who believe Nanking never happened. Alaskan politicians who believe Alaska should secede from America. African American politicians who believe Africans should be given half of America. Taiwanese politicians who believe Taiwan should be absorbed by the Japanese.

I know the concept of democracy might seem alien to you Chinese but in the free world, you are free to believe and say whatever you want. Just because a politician says something doesn't mean its supported by the mainstream.

I don't know about the concept of democracy being alien to Chinese, but you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. Where did anyone claim that the views are held by the mainstream? The thread refers to Korean nationalists, and even then, where did we say that *all* Korean nationalists claimed Manchuria?

The fact of the matter is, the claim exists, so pretending that it doesn't or that Chinese made it up is futile. Hell, some of your most prominent nationalist historians are involved in the claim. Look up Shin Chae-Ho.

You are free to believe whatever you want, and we are free to judge those beliefs.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

I don't deny that the Manchu conquest was a shameful period of Chinese history, but that's partly because the Chinese nation was yet to awaken. Most Chinese during that time couldn't care less who the emperors were because before the advent of nationalism, people were largely interested in their own local communities and thought only in terms of those communities. They didn't care about the Chinese nation-state because there was none; there was no unity, and therefore no strength. The Manchus walked all over us because we stabbed each other in the back with constant rebellions and a slew of traitors and turncoats (ie Wu Sangui), without whom the Manchus could not have triumphed.

Things are different, today, and hopefully will be in the future. Chinese people must understand that nationalism is their only defense against the machinations of foreign nations. The sooner they do, the better.

I suggest you improve your own reading comprehension first before you criticize others. You obviously implied it. I mentioned that such a belief was not supported by the mainstream. To which you replied that South Korean politicians requested Manchuria be returned.

Obviously you wouldnt have made such a comment if you either A. knew how to read or B. actually thought it was mainstream. Why would anyone make such a remark and then claim that they wern't talking about the mainstream. Its just baffable. Why did you bring up those politicians in the first place when I explicitly stated that it wasnt supported by the mainstream and population?



Then you are a liar. When did I ever claim that there wern't Koreans who wanted Manchuria? I never made such a claim. I did however say that most Koreans do not want or claim Manchuria.

To which you countered by claiming that South Korea politicians wanted Manchuria. Now tell me. If I stated that most(not all Koreans) did not want Manchuria. Then why the hell did you bring up those politicians in the first place in order to "correct me". If you actually knew how to read or thought the belief wasnt supported by the mainstream then you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place to correct me. Because there would be nothing to correct. Instead you would have just agreed with me and this debate would have never occurred.

I think santaclaws, chan-ho, and some of other ultra korean nationalists here want manchuria.

You claimed more than the idea that it wasn't supported by the mainstream (which I accept). You claimed that it was lies concocted by the Chinese to frame Koreans. You claimed that it wasn't "encouraged" by the government, yet the very fact that people like Shin Chae-Ho are considered "among the greatest of Korea's historians" indicate that there is implicit political support for their views. Shin Chae-Ho flat-out called for the reclamation of Manchuria, and your establishment calls him the greatest Korean historian. What am I supposed to think?



You did more than that. Stop backpedaling.



Because politicians run the country, and the masses can be easily led. I honestly don't care what the Korean masses think; it is what your politicians think that matter. As Hermann Goering pointed out:

"Why, of course, the people don't want war, why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

Oh, but you say: "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Do you understand now why your politicians matter more than you?

Now, I've never said that most Korean politicians want Manchuria, but just the presence of a few represents a threat, because if such people can obtain political power, then that means they could, potentially, run the country.

Manchuria did belong to Korea in history.

So it is pretty legitimate for korean historians to claim it.


Even if we start a war and eventually get it back, you shouldn`t mind
because it has been ours for a long time and nonetheless you are not
related to Manchu.

Yap yap yap completely irrelevant to the discussion we are having. Whats so difficult to understand?

I stated that most(keyword: MOST not ALL) Koreans do not believe in taking over Manchuria.

To which you brought up a negligable amount of Koreans who do believe Manchuria should be returned to Korea. Now tell me? Do you know how to read? Are you intentionally being this dumb? Did I not state that most Koreans(not all, MOST...very big difference between the two) do not want Manchuria? Why did you try to correct me in the first place if there was nothing to be corrected?

Quit making excuses and just admit that you're wrong. Speaking of which, it is a lie fabricated and greatly exaggerated by Chinese nationalists. Most Koreans do not believe in it. Only a small fringe group do. Yet Chinese nationalists somehow believe that there is a secret invasion plot or whatever. I think we can conclude that you have no idea what youre talking about. Argue all you want, it still does not change the fact that you're in denial.

If you start a war and manage to get it back, it is yours by right of force. The idea that we wouldn't mind is, however, preposterous. The loss of Manchuria would be a great strategic and national defeat for China. Consequently, you'll have to excuse us if we don't buy into your BS. If you want Manchuria, come and bleed.

If one of the politicians or president in Korea one day advocated to take back Manchuria, would you guys kick him out of office?
if you do, thanks.

Typical retreat tactic. Why don't you try responding to my points instead of screaming "you lost! you lost!" like some child throwing a temper tantrum? Oh wait, you can't - because I'm right and you misinterpreted me entirely in your fanatic haste to paint Chinese in a bad light. Anyone familiar with the English language would know that you said more than "most Koreans do not believe in taking Manchuria." And anyone familiar with basic logic would also recognize that nowhere did I imply that most Koreans believed in taking Manchuria. Yet, for some reason, you insist on pushing forth these two fallacies.

Desperate much?

what about the people? Majority of folks there are Han Chinese living there, If you took it back what you do with all the chinese folks?

Can we use nuke weapons to defend the motherland? We have to ask your permission first.

You really have to learn how to read.

1. I already said that if we wanted Manchuria, we would start a war. Nobody believes that china would give something back even if it is legally ours.

2. No Korean really cares about Manchuria. The nationalist historian you mentioned died in 1935.

you really look pathetic and paranoid right now.

Han Chinese settle everywhere before they claim it is their territory.
You did that in Tibet also.

I would say, send them home .


And no you don`t have the permission to use nukes, but Korea does.

Chinese have to stop their childish "Korea claims this and that" screaming.

Once and for all.

Here, I'll do you a favor and dissect your own post for you.



Hmm, I don't see a "most" here.



So, in other words, you're arguing three points, not one:

1. The government does not encourage or support taking Manchuria

2. The media does not encourage or support taking Manchuria

3. The mainstream does not encourage or support taking Manchuria



Translation: any Chinese belief that Korea might have territorial plans on Manchuria is a flat-out lie, because even though our "greatest historian" called for Korea to take Manchuria, and some of our politicians support this, we have no designs on it whatsoever.



Translation: any claim that Korea might have revanchist designs on Manchuria is a delusional lie because I said so, even though prominent Western scholars have noted that this is a reasonable fear on China's part.

Good, we can feel relaxed now,

in the future if some koreans want to claim Manchuria again, pls kick the $hit$ out of them for us. Keep an eye on santaclaws, chan-ho here

thanks.

yeah, korean vigilante group.

While you just look like the typical troll. I think I'm going to ignore you from now on, until you say something more intelligent than your typical fare.

You seriously believed that Korea would have invaded Manchuria in the near future?

You have to know, South Korea has lots of other problems like North Korea, the economic crisis, etc.


Koreans in general are not keen on fighting in wars.

Lol, im not the one retreating? Maybe you've mistaken me with yourself. You refuse to go over my correction of your comment. Instead you write a long @$$ post that had nothing to do with what we were talking(bolded for emphasis). Just because I ignored the long @$$ comment you wrote doesnt mean you've won.

It only means I dont give a rats @$$.



Im not the one throwing a fit here. By the looks of it, you are. Hence why you seem to so aggressive while I mostly dont care about your plight.



Reminds me of what a kindergartner would say.



Sorry but we dont need to go over this again. You simply arn't worth the effort. Im just going to repost what I wrote earlier.

I stated that most(keyword: MOST not ALL) Koreans do not believe in taking over Manchuria.

To which you brought up a negligable amount of Koreans who do believe Manchuria should be returned to Korea. Now tell me? Do you know how to read? Are you intentionally being this dumb? Did I not state that most Koreans(not all, MOST...very big difference between the two) do not want Manchuria? Why did you try to correct me in the first place if there was nothing to be corrected?

Quit making excuses and just admit that you're wrong. Speaking of which, it is a lie fabricated and greatly exaggerated by Chinese nationalists. Most Koreans do not believe in it. Only a small fringe group do. Yet Chinese nationalists somehow believe that there is a secret invasion plot or whatever. I think we can conclude that you have no idea what youre talking about. Argue all you want, it still does not change the fact that you're in denial.

Like I said earlier, you can hide behind more and more irrelevent comments but it still doesnt change the fact that you're wrong and cant refute what I stated earlier. When did I claim that all Koreans

Oh, so you can be intelligent, what do you know?

I'm not "worried" about a Korean military invasion. I'm more "worried" about North Korean refugees flooding into Northeast China upon the collapse of Kim's regime, and then hooking up with their Yanbian brethren and demanding that the region be annexed into a new unified Korea and getting American support for it. Korea is not a threat to China, but Korea + US + Japan is a huge threat to China, perhaps the most relevant one in the coming decades. What is today a minority opinion among Korean nationalists could very well become a majority opinion when Korea is unified, strong, and backed by an alliance of anti-Chinese forces. That's what I'm "worried" about.

What's there to even refute? Your original post is out there for all to see, and I even dissected it for you. I'll let the readers decide whether you said what you said or whether you said what you said you said.

Btw, I noticed from past threads that you have a habit of retconing your argument and believing that you said something you didn't. I think the same problem is at work, here.

Agreed/



Then learn to read

Koreans dont want Manchuria nor is such a belief encouraged/supported by the government, media, mainstream etc.

I think its obvious to anyone whos not an idiot that I wasnt implying every single person in Korea. Afterall, I cant read the minds of every single Korean. To bad you dont realize this obvious fact.



It means that most Koreans do not care or want to take over Manchuria. Whats so difficult to understand?



Greatest historian? Really. So they held the history olympics in Korea to see who was the greatest historian of all time.

WOW AWESOME!(it still doesnt change the fact that your arguments are idiotic, and you again fail to realize that the opinions of a historian is still the opinions of a single individual).



Read my China punching brick wall and getting mad at brick wall analogy. Its just so funny how Chinese nationalists start false rumors get so worked up at those rumors. Its like pouring gasoline(rumors) into a fire(Korea) and when they(Chinese nationalist) gets burnt(feelings hurt). Its the fires(Koreas) fault.

Whatever .

Wait a minute. So you claim that I dont refute your posts(nothing to refute really) while ignoring mine? LOL. Hypocrisy much?

Eidolon made an appropriate response....this argument is pointless.

Some of you are just way too sensitive. The only people making such claims are keyboard warrior nationalists posting on internet forums and videos on youtube. The Dongbei Region (Otherwise known as Manchuria to some) has already been successfully annexed and absorbed by China for centuries now. Demographically, it's about 100 million in population, most of which are Han. Do people honestly really think this region is going to break away anytime soon? Geez some of you just get some sensitive over such trivial issues.

I was rather talking to EazyMoney but whatever.....


We really can`t do anything against North Koreans sneaking into your country.
Maybe you can improve your border control or build up fences ?


But seriously, in case of collapse of NK and a reunification under South Korean flag,
most North Koreans would prefer to stay in Korea.


EAD is right, most Koreans don`t care about Manchuria and you can`t even quote a single relevant news article
about this.

Btw, I remembered awhile back some South Korean female skaters putting out sign the chinese mountain is theirs in the competition in Jilin or harbin.

Can we assume those were dumb korean chicks and not mainstream like EAD mentioned and dismiss that ?

So you can't read the minds of every single Korean but you can read the minds of most Koreans, including the government, the media, and the mainstream? Lawl. What a stupid argument. I pointed out this part of your post to emphasize the fact that you did not state "most Koreans do not believe in taking Manchuria." You said something very different, which you EXPECT people to interpret EXACTLY as you meant it, even though the sentences themselves don't say EXACTLY what you mean. The primary problem I had with your post is that you seem to think that the opinion in question is some sort of fringe opinion supported by only whackos, when in fact it is supported by some of your respected politicians and famous historians. It is NOT the equivalent of "Mao Zedong is Korean." It has very deep historical and political roots.



What makes you think I don't know this? That's YOUR misinterpretation, not mine.



Someone is labeled "greatest historian" by the establishment - usually the intellectual or political establishment. Shin Chae-Ho didn't get this label for no reason. You should read into it.



So what? The opinion of Mao Zedong is still the opinion of a single individual, but fu-k if it didn't shape the course of modern Chinese history. You're trying to argue that the Korean claim on Manchuria is a non-existent threat because "most Koreans" do not care. That's simply a logical fallacy. Most Koreans do not make Korean policy. Korean politicians make Korean policy, and their views are fundamentally shaped by the historians and academics with whom they share the leadership of the country.

The masses can be led.

Hey we are talking about SOUTH Korea right?

Thank you



That skaters did it as a reaction to Chinas theft of Goguryeo. They were also bashed when they went back to Korea.

And dont confuse Baekdu Mountain with Manchuria. Big difference. Baekdu mountain is mostly Korea even today. 60% of it is still controlled by North Korea. China obtained the remaining 40% in 1962 after Mao helped Kim Jong Ils father in the in the Korean war.

Let me try to sum this up for you, EvilAsianDude:

You come in here claiming that Korean designs on Manchuria is a ridiculous lie concocted by paranoid Chinese nationalists to make Koreans look bad. I point out to the fact that Chinese beliefs about Korean claims are very legitimate because they are based on historical and political claims made by members of your elite. Nowhere did I, or any other person, say that most ordinary Koreans want to invade Manchuria. That's something you put in our mouths. Instead, what we said is that Chinese have a legitimate worry about Korean revanchism due to documents and statements traceable to your historians and politicians.

This is something that Western scholars have corroborated and found reasonable, so no matter which way you cut it, China's worries about Korean designs are legitimate. This does not mean that most Koreans want to invade Manchuria. This does not mean that the Korean leadership intends to invade Manchuria. What it means is that there are rational reasons for taking precautions against Korean revanchism.

Who cares?