Congrat to Najib ... .. But, I still can't understand why the majority of malays still hesitate to support his effort to end the "Malay Supremacy"?

Just think again a bit harder. If you could do that with your brain, maybe you'd understand. Some time.

His disgusting appeasements r not gonna win him any more significant non-Malay/Bumiputera votes ... the non-Malay/Bumiputera like you will just start seeing through his spinelessness n keep asking for more ... n more ... n more ... n more. We know this all too well about your kind.

If he doesnt shape up soon, in the end he will lose even his Malay/Bumiputera support ... n somebody else with more spine will rise to take over n replace him. N take back everything that he's given away.

But I hope he proves me wrong though. For the sake of the Malay/Bumiputera community.

The last time I checked, it was Malays/Bumiputeras, particularly the wealthy ones who enjoyed most of the privileges. Aren't they the ones asking for more and more and more? I mean isn't it enough that they made their wealth at the expense of the rest of the country including poorer Malays? So far all he has removed is privileges that benefit wealthy Malays only, why is this wrong? What makes their greed right?

BTW we know about your kind too, where nothing is ever enough.

Don't trust Malays from UMNO, especially Najib ....

If they can cheat their people ... they can also do the same thing to you and your people here ...

So, continue to fight to get your right ...

I think it's a move to try to win back some votes.

With only 60% Muslim in Malaysia (if that figure is correct), I don;t see why every priviledge must be given to Malays in every aspect of the country. Furthermore, the priviledges for the company holdings usually only profit the rich malays, and ignores the poor malays. That is how even a "Malay priviledge" is not a fair one to all malays.

How to fight to get your right? By voting the PR? NO WAY.
I rather let the previous kaki tido PM to be a leader than any of PR leader.

Democracy is about satisfying the requests and demands of interest groups.....not the majority. The "Majority" is too big and too clumsy to be organized. They are best being led astray by "newspapers" and TV programs.

...it a system promoted by the "minority".....the Jews!

LoL!.....since when is 30% considered "Supreme"?

How many Jews are there in Malaysia though?

"Jews" by Islamic definition is not a race. They are followers of the altered religion by the rabbi of the state of Judah. The religion of Judaism.

The race in Islam is "Bani Israel" or "Israelite" in English. "Jews" and "Israelite" are two different things. 70% of "Israelis" (Jews in the secular modern Nation-state of Israel (has nothing to do with Israel; the other name for the prophet Yakkob AS)) are not even Israelite (sons of prophet Jacob AS)

Some elite Malays & Chinese are "Jews" by "unconsciously" embracing the Talmudic philosophy of life. This Talmud philosophy was injected into our system by the colonizers and the current riba-based economy system.

Allahu'aklam.

What I meant is:

Democracy is a system not promoted & Champion by the French nor the USA. It was a mechanism the "Jews" used the manipulate the majority of Christians in Western nations.

The portrayal we are seeing is that the US is the ones championing democracy in Iraq.....but we are being deceived.

The malays that we know today are not Malay as a race. the real term will be a "society". malay that we know to day are compose of infusion of many races. Polynesian, Chinese, Indians, Thais, khmers, Turks, europeans and many more. Many Indian and Chinese immigrants came to pninsular and live among the locals. they embrace the local custom and became assimilated. The Malaysian Chinese and Indians that we know today were labors brought in by the British. they serve dual purpose, first to serve as a workforce and as an economic stimulant to the country. second, they serve to counterbalance the power of Malay in the country and reduce the posibility of a native uprising. British encourage segregation among this ethnic group to achieve this end.

I personally support the Malay supremacy, not as a racial supremacy, but as a cultural supremacy. The Malay muslim culture that we know today are one of the few number of genuinely local cultures which was unique to this region and have been practice since long ago. This culture will not and should not be allowed to be supplanted by the copycat culture from somewhere else.

To Chinese and Indian. since you live in Malaysia and not in India or China, you should assimilate yourself to the malay culture. if not, you'll be forever branded as the foreigners.

But what is Malay culture? Does it include religion? Is culture static?

All cultures change in time, even Malay culture. It is not right that that one race has to "adopt" another culture, but given time and the right conditions, cultures will assimilate natrually. Is Wayang Kulit part of Malay culture? The problem in Malaysia is that the conditions set by the govnt encourages segregation and not assimilation and that is one of the reasons why Malaysians are not united. The second reason is because one race sees itself as being more deserving then the other races. This is demonstrated with the persisting existance of the NEP and of the attitude that "other races need to adopt to us but we don't need to adopt to them". The silly thing is that weather you like it or not Malay culture WILL change, particularly in todays world which is smaller then is has been historically, with the advent of cyberspace. And Malays and Malay culture has to change to adopt to the new world otherwise they will be left behind. Even evey Malay who has posted here is different to the Malays preceeding them. All of you speak beautiful English. Malay culture is much more "modern" then it used to be aand aspects of Malay culture that are redundant in the modern world, will be left behind. And this doesn't only apply to Malay culture, but Chinese and Indian as well. How many kids still play congkak? I went back to Malaysia, I could hardly find a kedai runcit let alone a decent catik. Unless I wanted a "modern" one. Krepek and Indian curry puff, very hard to find.

Shouldn't we assimilate into a Malaysian society instead? Why Malay? What about Dayaks like me?

edit: I wonder if the Malays in Singapore should assimilate into the Chinese society. I think they should, if we should operate on the same logic.

I guess you kinda forget the Malaysian Constitution that clearly defines Bangsa Melayu. As per Malaysian context, the term Malay exclusively refers to Muslim Malays in MY.

However, when we put 'em in other contexts, now that's a different ballgame already.



Muslim Indians are credited in Islamicizing Malay societies & shared far close familial & cultural ties with Malays for more than 600 years. Straits Chinese have assimilated within Malay cultures after full 300-600 yrs worth of cultural interaction.

These communities have hundreds of years (almost half a century! ) with interacting with Malays.



Please, Malay cultures itself had done much of its copycat after more than a thousand years of assimilating & accepting foreign influences. Malay as a culture only matured after 600 years following Malacca's Islamization.

Indigenous cultures such as from other non-Muslim Bumiputras clashed with Malay-culture, but their unique cultures are definitely original & deserved to be protected as part of MALAYSIAN CULTURE!

The MY Chinese & MY Indians cultures are also part of Malaysian heritage, they've been here for atleast 150 years thus enable them the right to practice their own culture unhindered.

For MY to go forward, a MALAYSIAN CULTURE is what we needed, not the Malay culture itself.



Assimilation do not guaranteed harmony. Look at Indonesia, total assimilation of Indo-Chinese did not stop the atrocities commited to them during the anarchy of post-Suharto regime with ethnic bloodbath in late 1990s.

In Malaysia & Singapore, we choose integration. Let's stick with that.

Seriously though, only MY Chinese are actually preserving Chinese cultures. The Indo-Chinese recently trying to rediscover their Chinese roots after years of assimilation. Thai-Chinese & Pinoy-Chinese already assimilated in larger Thai & Pinoy collectives.

As for SG-Chinese, they are far to Westernised culturally (unfortunately, that does not mean changes in skin color & DNA genes) to even realised they are Chinese!

The British wrote the history that credited the Indians for the spread of Islam to Malacca....but I doubt that his-story.

We had a Kedah King tomb buried as a Muslim King Sultan Muzaffar Shah some 300 yrs before Melaka was even opened?

.....and the first Muslim state in Nusantara is Pasai, on the north tip of Sumatera opened in year 800AD by Persians....this is 600 yrs before Melaka. And "Pasai" is an old Malay term for Parsi.

Sejarah Negara Kedah blog came out with evident and proposal that Islam came to Kedah from the Chinese. They showed the common sharing of architecture in old Kedah Kings tombs caving and art works at mosques & tombs.

We will be fatally deceived if we hold onto the theory that "Malacca is where Malay history begins".

We need to look at Acheh, Pasai, Jambi, Palembang, Kedah, Langkasuka and Nakhon si Thamarat (Ligor) history.

Please go to the Malacca Kingdom thread to understand that Malacca was not an Islamic EMPIRE. It was just a small trading port vassal to Acheh and Sri Ayuthiyya.

If you'll to visit Malacca today, and study its infrastructure, it do not have "Terusan Wan Mat Saman" or huge delta Mekong or Menam Chao Phya. In Melacca you'll notice remnants of Old Negeri-Negeri Selat history. To me Malacca is just like Penang. Old Straits States & history of colonization.

It is an insult to the "dakwah" of Islam and the early Sahabis, & the Islamic Empires of Ummaiyah, Abbasiyah and Otamaniyah with all the expertize in desert and sea navigations to ignore the spreading of Islam in the Nusantara.

All well and true Radzi, but the point that Proto and I were making is that Malay culture has been influenced by outside forces as Malay culture has influenced other cultures. One cannot adopt the attitude that I don't want my culture to change, this would be like trying to hold back the tide, and you make it worse by insisting that other people change to become "like me". You cannot stop people from changing and neither can you force people to change, change will occur and you need to let it progess in its natural course. You can try to redirect it a little bit but thats about all you can do. And for Malaysians to be united everybody needs to be prepared to change and to integrate. The change may not happen to you but your children and your childrens children. It concerns me though that you still have the attitude that unless Chinese and Indians become "more Malay"(whatever this means) that you still view them as foreigners. That means even 2+ generations of living in Malaysia, representing Malaysia in all areas and showing thier loyalty to Malaysia, you still view us as foreigners.

I personally think Malays as a people are at a cross road. Do you try to hold on to the values of the past or change to adapt to the modern world. Personally I don't think you can fully stop the change but how strongly do you try to hold on to the values of the past. Are these values redundant in the modern world? Why do you want to hold on to these values, do they serve a purpose? Is it simply nostalgic? Is it simply that you don't want to change? Malays like everybody else want the prosperity that comes with the modern world, which is fine, but you cannot expect to hold on to the "old way of life" yet still want to enjoy the benefits of the modern world, the 2 cannot exist completely together.

Dear Swingdoctor,

Yes...all cultures have inter-influenced one another....Sumerians with Egyptians, Chinese with Romans etc...etc...
But lately, promoters of New World Order...are at another topic that is indifferent to Cultural Inter-influences..What we are into next is "Clash of Civilization"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations

Malay culture is secondary to me, I am all about Islamic Values and Laws. Chinese and Indians were not foreigners to Malays before colonization period. Both assimilated in the Malay Mon-Khmer societies. The types of Indians and Chinese that came pre & post colonization are different though. Pre colonization (except the Chola) most Indian that came to Nusantara were the Gujarati, Pathans, Muslim Punjabi (now mostly became Pakistanis) and other north Indians traders. But during & post colonization, Indians that came here were British slave labors...the Hindus Tamils.

So too with the Chinese. Stop coming were the Yunnan & other western Chinese Muslims. The British brought along hakka, hokkiens and Guangzhou people.

British reduced & broke half the population of Muslims as they diluted 7 millions Muslim Malays in Kra (Ligor, Phatalung, Pathani, Naratiwat, Satun) into Thailand in 1909 perjanjian Pangkor, . Kedah and Kelantan were the only states left to be joined into the newly federation yet to be formed. The new frontiers states (hutan dara) of Perak, Pahang, Johor, Selangor and Negeri Sembilan will be flooded by new immigrants looking for "new world" (hutan dara). Most of the British owned estates are in these states....ask Jonathan Guthrie, Sime Darby & Golden Hope.

....Then the British injected the Chinese & Indians for the purpose of "devide and rule" . They did their purpose for the British, but we must change that. The only way to do that is to "dakwah" and not the typical UMNO "dakyah".

...then some Javanese came into the new frontier...and they still do come even with the current close border....mainly into southern states.
...then in the early 70s, Tun Abdul Razak, trained and ferried Malays from Kedah and Kelantan into Felda and new virgin lands in Pahang & Johor.

..that how the new territories of British Malaysia was design & fabricated.

Now I want to hear how would you try to topple the "Split & Rule" implementation & re-design a new "One-Malaysia" community?

UMNO preach & cried "One-Malaysia" but they actually promote and cultivate "Split & Rule".

Allahu'aklam.

"Embracing Change" is very Islamic.

Islam measure time with "change". That unit change is called "Hijrah".

Islamic values do not change....but we all, as we grow and decay..... do change.

Progress in Islam is not measure in how tall a building you made or stayed in.....but "Progress" in Islam is how much change of "Taqwa" we made, we attempt or we waned to.....

Allahu'aklam.

Yes but the practitioners of Islam often aren't very "Islamic", as we have seen from recent developments. Besides I'm not talking about Islamic values, but Malay ones and the 2 don't complement each other completely.

To encourage a "One Malaysia"(you will not like this), I would first encourage a better understanding of each others religion and culture. I would encourage the celebration of each others significant cultural and religious events. Understanding that when you are helping a friend celebrate a religious event, you are not doing it from a religious point of view but a cultural one. At the end of the day religion is not about the acts that one does outwardly but the intentions one feels in their hearts. I would allow the conversion in and out of different religions but discourage the active preaching to people of different faiths. I would disband the Sharia courts and instead create a department that will try to settle disputes with sensitivities to all religions but which will be below the civil courts not above it. The law of the land must come first. I will not make it mandatory for non Malays to convert to Islam in order to marry a Muslim but leave it up to individuals to decide for themselves how important that is to their own lives. I would maintain a department of Islamic affairs though with greatly reduced powers, ie they will not be able to dictate to other religions what they can and can't do, their powers would be restricted to only managing the daily running of Islamic affairs, and not policy setting. I would continue the govnt funding of mosques and the mandatory setting aside of land for mosques in all new housing estates. I would continue the PARTIAL funding of the running of mosques with funding based on need but continue the complete funding of the building of a "basic" mosque in new estates, with the local Muslim community being able to "add on" funding to make the mosque "look nicer". I would hold a yearly convention which will include dialogue between practitioners and leaders of different faiths.

In terms of schools, I would place a higher emphasis on BM as a language that will unite a nation but for different reasons also increase the standard of English as a language important for the prosperity of Malaysia. I would also have optional but fully funded classes in Mandarin and Japanese, languages I believe will be important for trade in the future. Over time I would re-implement a one system education policy and entry into the elite schools and universities will be based on merit alone. Access to scholarships would also be on need alone. I would have a separate department for Bumiputera affairs which will provide additional funding to help Bumis in need in terms of funding for education and to help them with applications for higher learning, work skills and with jobs but this will be based on need rather then carte blanc. This department will also be able to assist those non Bumis in exceptional financial distress achieve the same goals. In time I would get rid of all religious and vernacular schools, with all children being made to attend public schools or private schools that meet a minimum standard of requirement.

Religious education will not be compulsory and will be provided outside school hours. Religious understanding classes will be compulsory and be held concurrently by leaders of different religious faiths, by individuals committed to peace and understanding.

I would like to rephrase it this way: Majority "Muslims of today are not fundamentally (Islamic knowledge and values) strong. Fundamentalist Muslims will NOT be in quarrel with Fundamentalist Buddhist, and both will be living in "peace" and tranquility next to one another. The problem is when the half bake "tolerate" (tolerate = those who do not take their religion seriously) Muslims, staying next to another half bake Buddhist. They will argue not about religion, but about materials and other worldly desires, but the different in "religion" was brought up to be highlighted.

Thing are not going to be easy when the "Riba-based" Capitalist Western World are calling "Fundamentalist" as "terrorist" ....Fundamentalist Muslims especially.

I would like to rephrase it this way: Majority "Muslims of today are not fundamentally (Islamic knowledge and values) strong. Fundamentalist Muslims will NOT be in quarrel with Fundamentalist Buddhist, and both will be living in "peace" and tranquility next to one another. The problem is when the half bake "tolerate" (tolerate = those who do not take their religion seriously) Muslims, staying next to another half bake Buddhist. They will argue not about religion, but about materials and other worldly desires, but the different in "religion" was brought up to be highlighted.

Thing are not going to be easy when the "Riba-based" Capitalist Western World are calling "Fundamentalist" as "terrorist" ....Fundamentalist Muslims especially.

I would like to rephrase it this way: Majority "Muslims of today are not fundamentally (Islamic knowledge and values) strong. Fundamentalist Muslims will NOT be in quarrel with Fundamentalist Buddhist, and both will be living in "peace" and tranquility next to one another. The problem is when the half bake "tolerate" (tolerate = those who do not take their religion seriously) Muslims, staying next to another half bake Buddhist. They will argue not about religion, but about materials and other worldly desires, but the different in "religion" was brought up to be highlighted.

Thing are not going to be easy when the "Riba-based" Capitalist Western World are calling "Fundamentalist" as "terrorist" ....Fundamentalist Muslims especially.

Promoting and holding-up Malay culture do not have a place in Islam. And "yes", the two do not complement each other.

In Islam, we do not split between "religion" and "culture" into two separate matters and deal them in secular fashion. Halal and Haram considerations in any Culture is a subset of Religion. To understand another religion is no issue in Islam, and this is rather encourage...and to this aspect, Islam explains the formation and alteration in the other religions; Christianity, Judaism ....and Paganism (if you'd consider them as religion?). We are encourage to help friends, but not in enjoining them enjoying what in our opinion as "unconsciously getting astray"

As far as Buddhism and Zoroastrians, some Islamic scholars do suggest that both are "Universal Islam" initially when each was revealed to prophets Dhulkifli and Zoroaster relatively.
Muslims hope to re-unite with Buddhist with what you term as the "laughing Buddha" the Maitriya Buddha....and Buddha himself as a prophet of Allah as Dzulkipli AS or Dhul-Kapil that is "The Person from Kapil-vastu" (Metropolotan of Kapil, Kapil-Pura or kapilavastu).
http://www.islamawareness.net/Buddhism/Scr...res/mibs02.html
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=4...;_fb_noscript=1

Islam promotes "One Ummah", thus this concept s beyond secular boundaries. The WW1 & WW2 broke the Islamic ummah apart and the formation of assobiyyah secular nations post WW2 (slightly after 1945) is almost a "checkmate" to this "one ummah" Islamic concept. From Islamic point of view, the "One Malaysia" concept is a "bidaah".

In Islam, we do not split between "religion" and "culture" into two separate matters and deal them in secular fashion. Halal and Haram considerations in any Culture is a subset of Religion. To understand another religion is no issue in Islam, and this is rather encourage...and to this aspect, Islam explains the formation and alteration in the other religions; Christianity, Judaism ....and Paganism (if you'd consider them as religion?). We are encourage to help friends, but not in enjoining them enjoying what in our opinion as "unconsciously getting astray"

As far as Buddhism and Zoroastrians, some Islamic scholars do suggest that both are "Universal Islam" initially when each was revealed to prophets Dhulkifli and Zoroaster relatively.
Muslims hope to re-unite with Buddhist with what you term as the "laughing Buddha" the Maitriya Buddha....and Buddha himself as a prophet of Allah as Dzulkipli AS or Dhul-Kapil that is "The Person from Kapil-vastu" (Metropolotan of Kapil, Kapil-Pura or kapilavastu).
http://www.islamawareness.net/Buddhism/Scr...res/mibs02.html
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=4...;_fb_noscript=1

Islam promotes "One Ummah", thus this concept s beyond secular boundaries. The WW1 & WW2 broke the Islamic ummah apart and the formation of assobiyyah secular nations post WW2 (slightly after 1945) is almost a "checkmate" to this "one ummah" Islamic concept. From Islamic point of view, the "One Malaysia" concept is a "bidaah".

In Islam; We have 3 different categories:

Reference to the hadith (guidance) from our prophet Muhammad SAW that translated which meaning is estimated as such: "If you see a mischief on earth, correct that with your hand (action) if you are capable, if you are not capable, then correct it with "lisan" (vocal), and if that you are not even capable, then correct that with you heart (mind/doa//intention). That is the lowest form of iman"

...thus intention alone is not enough.
There are also differences between Muslims, Mukminin and Mukshinin. (Refer to hadith Jibrael)

Why not??? If it is righteous and for the truth, we need to actively propagate. Islam promotes the spread of truth and goodness....i.e. Dakwah not "Dakyah".

I would disband the current Shariah Law too. It is a joke.
The Shariah Law is here as a "deceiving plot" when the British deployed the British Common Law while it replaced the Islamic Law as the ruling Law some 200 years ago. If the British were to not have the "dummy Shariah Law" there, our elder Muslim Malays would clearly had seen that they (British) are very anti-Islam just like the Communist were.

Law of the Land????

In Islam, the land submits itself to Allah, thus the land is a muslim. All land belongs to Allah...and it must follow Allah's Law.

The current so called "Law of the Land" and the federal constitution was drafted by the Lord Reid panels under the pointing nose of the Colonizers.

A Muslim man can marry any of "ahli kitab" women. The women can continue their practice in the religion. Muslim woman cannot marry a non Muslim man. If she disagree with the "Law", then she disagree with Allah. If she disagree with Allah, ....then she is no longer a Muslim....thus she can marry the man.... so what the deal?

Muslims took religious matter seriously, If one consider other stuffs are deem more important (intheir own lives???), then he/she may disband Islam.

You see "mualaaf" and "Sabiin" are OK to be treated "in partial", but seasoned Muslims must adhere to Islamic Law seriously.

"Department of Islamic affair"s is about "Secularism".It do not exist in Islamic Lands before Western Imperialism forced secularism into our throat. The Department of Islamic Affairs reports to the Secular State for the benefits of the State for the containment of Islamic issues.

Before the British and the Dutch were here, Muslims aligned ourselves in many-many small "qariah" (communities) lead by imams of ulama (plural for alim (man of knowledge)). They bai'ah (pledge of support) to the Ottoman caliphate. These ulama took care of community affair as well as Islamic affairs. The British replaced our "ulama leadership" with "Tok Penghulu" leadership that reports to the Sultan.

Much like the "Sifu" in Chinese communities and schools. Sifus lead repective communities, but the Emperor have other thought....they wanted to consolidate power to themselves yet the "Sifu" and the communities just wanted to left alone. Similar analogy the Islamic communities...Not that we are "separative", we just want to "aslah" from the current materialistic capitalist and secular wicked system.

....and now they label us "terrorists".

"Subsidy" mosques is one of the worst things to happen to Malaysian Muslim communities. Funding mosque is what the secular government wanted.to do....so they can dictate and elects their secular organization chart into the community. Gone is the local community and local governance.....in the place, come in is the national secular authority. This makes local communities having "hiraki" aka the Catholic Church, but worst with members with "subsidy mentality".

Many kampong folks had rejected government proposal to demolish their old mosques to be replaced by new grander ones. "Look nicer" and Grand "show case" mosque not just trapped the small governance of local communities, it doubtful source of funding to erect and build the mosques are unsure clean and "halal", The finance of the mosques are most probably mixed federal income from gambling and other un-righteous resources; national loans involving "riba" for example. Old mosques existing in the kampungs might not look nice, but are clean off the sweats of the communities. We call more "barakah"

Schools is mainly a "brainwash machine" for the national agenda...and create "effective labor" for the slave of the States. It actually distorted people's perspective and common sense.
http://www.henrymakow.com/000561.html

Have you heard of "home education"? It not about "cooking class", but this is the way to fight negative influences children pick-up from school. This is getting more popular with the wealthy in the US. Social problems introduced at school actually out-weight it benefits.

Schools and curriculum is best decided by individuals, family, small local community, regions and county, state and lastly the federal.....and not what we are practicing now in malaysia. Every dumb minister selected into office, introduced stupid stuffs that he whole country had to swallow?

Bring back Arabic and Sanskrit. The two languages are vocabulary & grammatically more powerful than any of the newly introduced languages we are seeing today

Everyone born on earth are not "Bumiputra".....In Islam the term is "Bani Adama" ....i.e. "Sons of Adam"

This is a "Hindu" terminology adopted by UMNO.....such as "Sons of Mother India" to "Sons of Mother Earth".....that is "Bumi-Putr" in Sanskrit.

"Fundamentalist" Muslims are often in conflict with other religions. It just depends on which parts of the Quran they choose to emphasise. If any Muslim believes that State Law= Islamic Law then it would put them in conflict with every other religion. This then boils down to the extent to which they will go to achieve their means. If they accept that not everybody will feel the same way as they do, and are prepared to live with that then wonderful. But if they are prepared to force it on other people who do not wish to accept it, simply becsuse they are of a different religion or worse still are prepared to use force to achieve this means, then there will be problems.

So the question now is, from just the one example given above, if a Muslim is prepared to live with state laws not being the same as Islamic Laws for the sake of "Peaceful living" would you consider them "half baked"?



Yes you do, the classic example is wearing a scarf over a womans head. The religions states that women only need dress modestly. The Malaysian culture says that Malay women must wear a head dress. The Quran is the same no matter which country you go to. But the INTEPRETATION of the Quran is different in different countries/race hence the term culture.

Well in Malaysia advertantly or inadvertantly, Muslims are not encouraged to understand other religions. As I see it Islam is about power even among many Imams and so called religious bodies. The fear that if they lose their "flock" their power will go with them, is more important then the true practice of Islam. And how can you argue "unconciously going astray" is going astray in the actions that you perform or in what you feel in your heart. You have agreed with me that religion is about what you feel in your heart. If this is the case then there is no such thing as "unconciously going astray" because if in your heart you are being true to islam and its teachings, then even if you unconciously do something "wrong" it matters not becasue what you feel in your heart it what matters the most. "Unconciously going astray", is for people who feel that Islam is about "show" and insecurity, and showing outwardly that you are a good Muslim is more importnat then what you feel inside.

We have had a few Muslim posters here who profess to be "good" Muslims. Who stand up and argue vermently about protecting Islamic rights in Malaysia for the protection of Islam and in accordance with the Quran, yet, will quite happily post pictures of semi naked women and worse still make sexually explicit comments and sexually demeaning comments to female posters here, even tough at least one of them is married. Muslims for show.


Fine, if Islamic nations want to form one large country, good for them but remember, Malaysia is NOT an Islamic country. If you are advocating that Muslims in Malaysia join this bigger Islamic nation, then you are advocating the splitting of the country. But it'll never happen anyway, long before WWI and WWII or the involvement of the British, the Shiites and Sunni were antoganistic towards each other. They have not been united virtually since the start of Islam as a religion and are no where near uniting now.


So you're happy for Christians to preach to Muslims, because I have to tell you this, historically Chistians have been much better at it.


Before the British came there wasn't Islamic law either. It was a monarchy with Islamic law merely being a "suggestion" as to what the rulers should do. And the Muslim rulers were no less greedy or treacherous then monarchies else where. There was no more an Islamic State in Malaysia then there was a Christian State in England.

If you believe that the land belongs to your God, fine I don't have a problem with it, just don't force me to accept it.

Yes the constitution was drafted by Lord Reid with the consent of the Rulers of Malaysia who also agreed to the drafting of the constitution. And the last time I looked the Rulers were the protectors of Islam.


So we agree then that it is against Islamic laws that a non Muslim man is forced to convert to Islam to marry a Muslim woman.


There was no Islamic Lands in Malaysia before the British came. It was ruled by Sultans not Imams, the fact that small communities were formed around Imams does not mean that they were the rulers of the Land, Besides even back then not everyone was Muslim and what gave Muslims the right to call it Islamic Lands. the first settlers in Malaysia were the Orang Asli, what gives Muslims the right to take their lands away from them and give it to your God.


Firstly, you have made a comment about the way Catholic Churches are built, well firstly I will ask you, where do you think the funding comes from for churches built in Malaysia?

In my opinion funding should only be for new mosques and any funding for the repair and upkeep of any mosque will be done on a as needs basis. In my opinion, there will be communities who will be too poor to fully maintain a mosque so there will be money available there for them IF THEY NEED IT. If they are determined to be fully self sufficient, even better. Any mosque built with govnt subsidy from my point of view, will be basic and nothing grand about it. Your God and my God don't care about how "grand" the place of worship is, its what is in your heart that matters.


It may surprise you to know that home education is practiced more commonly in Australia then in Malaysia and home education is practiced more commonly among the Christian population then the general population. If you want your child to only learn about the Quran and learn in Arabic and Sanskrit then fine home school them in these declipines. However if you want your child to obtain a better standard of conventional education, home schooling isn't necessarily a better option. Sure if you're wealthy, you can pay a teacher to teach only your child, this would be better. But home schooling is very, very difficult for the home teacher and it is not somehting most parents can do, if they can't afford to pay for a teacher. Also schooling is not only about the academic education you learn, what about the social education, ie making friends and learing to fit into a community, how do you learn that at home?


So?

Moved/Deleted ...

Swingdoctor,

I had tried to break them down into various topics so it is easier for both of us to go to each topic slowly and in further details. This lumping of various subjects and issues into one single thread is difficult for me to focus. I try my best to explain the confronting issues between Islam and the current secular system of today. Insya'Allah. (God Willing)

...I cannot do that in a single thread of this very many issues to discuss.

The point I'm making is that although I have no problem with Islam in itself, its the practitioners of Islam that I have a problem with. In a country where more then 1 religion predominates we cannot have 1 religion to rule over all others(images of Lord of the Rings). Muslims in Malaysia have demonstrated countless times that they cannot be relied upon to treat other religions fairly as the Quran dictates. So the only real solution is a truly secular state. In fact when it comes to looking after the literal interests of Islam as described in the Quran, treating other religions fairly often takes a back seat. Malaysians cannot exist peacfully if Malaysia were to become an Islamic State. But this is understandble, why because people are not perfect.

You may see Islam and the Quran as being "perfect", fair enough but even the Quran is open to intepretations and there will be instances where it seems that things clash and one must decide which sections of the Quran to uphold. The classic example is the treatment of other religions. How important is this? The Quran says very important, as is the fair treatment of your fellow man, yet this is often in conflict with what some people would inteprete as the best decision for Islam. Even the most learned scholars of Islam often cannot agree on its true intepretation. This is not unique to the Quran, it happens commonly with the Bible as well.

In my opinion the most important teachings of the Quran and the Bible, is how to treat your fellow man and how you live your life. It is not about how you make other people live their lives and its not about punishing others who go astray. Both the Bible and the Quran teach a way of life, to be honest the type of life that is not dissimilar. Often people in the quest for the finer things the Bible and the Quran forget about the bigger picture and that is live your life peacefully with a good concions and treat your fellow man well. Everything else is secondary. Gay relationships, Apostasy, Islamic laws of the land etc, they must always come after your love of God and your love of your fellow man.

Again...there are too many stuffs are being discuss by you as one single "lump". We need to break each topic singularly so we can discuss in depth.

Interesting that you got that "Lord of the Ring" image. So who do you think are the "dark Lord Sauron....and who do you think are the vulnerable "Hobbits"?

In Islam it begins with "Tauhid"....everything else follow from that.

Tauhid is the believe and love for what God Is.....Love of Al-Haq...love for the Truth.

All interrelations with other Creations are because of the sincerity (Ikhlas), submission and the love to/for the Creator. ...Al-Haq.

This "Tauhid" is summerized in surah Al-Ikhlas: http://wahiduddin.net/quran/ikhlas.htm

No what I mean is that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutley, and that is why you can't have one religion ruling over all others. In a perfect world maybe but we don't live in a perfect world and humans are far from perfect.


I think life is very simple except we try to make it very hard. Just like one can't serve more then one master, one can't also have too many priorities in life and in religion. You cannot fulfill everything exactly as in the Quran or the Bible. So you need to take the most important messages and make sure you fulfill those. In my opinion the most important messages from both the Quran and the bible are
1) You must only believe in one true God
2) You must love that God unconditionally
3) God teaches us a way of life that treats our fellow man with love and respect.
To me evrything else must not come before these rules. If you have an opportunity to practice other rules without breaking these, all well and good, but anything else you think the Quran is teaching you must NEVER break these rules.

Religion is simple if you choose to make it simple, it is complicated if you choose to make it complicated.

Dzulqafli = Gautama? Really? Wow!!! This is news to me. Either that or some dreamy Smart Alec just made it up yesterday.

Like another dreamy Smart Alec once claimed that Iskandar Agung (Alexander the Great) was "Dzulqarnain" (the Man with Two Horns). When later historical/archaelogical scholarship pointed to Khouroush-e-Bozorg (Cyrus the Great) of Persia as the more likely candidate.

But then ... there were so many Dzulqaflis in the history of West Asia. Honestly, I thought it was quite an ancient West Asian name. Like since pre-Gautama (i.e. pre 500 BC) times. Maybe from Assyrian or Babylonian times.

"Dhul-Kapil" sounds quite Assyrian to me, actually. A bit like "Tukultu-pul-issar" (Tiglath Pileser).

N all those so many Dzulqaflis ... they couldnt hv all come from Kapilavastu, could they? Just observing ...

Anyway, if that is true, would be great. Who knows ... maybe all SEA would become Muslim one day ... even all East Asia ... nothing is impossible.

In the Quran, there are 2 "Dhul"s : (Dhul = the person or 'the man'):

The 1st is "Dhul-Qarnain" mentioned 3 times in the Quran and the story about him and his deeds are in ayat: 18:83 to 18:100.
"Dhul-Qarnain" is not a name...it is a reference to a person who did those good deeds describe by the Quran.
Some scholars said the "Dhul" was Alexander the Great of Macedonia, yet some said the "Dhul" was Darius I of Persia...and some scholars say he was some ancients Assyrian Kings who fought the Barbaric Scythia and Gimmerian tribes who often sneaked across the Caucasus mountain range through Darial Gouge to raid the fertile soil. The Quran hides the identity of "Dzul-Qarnain"...and this indeed invites us to study more about him. The Quran even make this statement while introducing the character "Dhul-Qarnain"

Quran 18: 83. They ask thee concerning Zul-qarnain. Say, "I will rehearse to you something of his story."

I guess we will CONTINUE to be asking concerning Zul-Qarnain until now. And the "something" of is story will be ample enough clues to benefit all of mankind. The identity may not be important, but his deeds and our PROCESS to study about him will unite mankind against the evil of "Gog and Magog".

The 2nd " Dzul" in the Quran is "Dzul-Kifl" and he is being mentioned twice in the Quran (21:85 & 38:48), but on both occasion "Dhul-Kifl" are mentioned as a righteous and a patients person....yet no stories or clues about his deeds.

Earlier scholars referred "Dhul-Kafl" as prophet Ezekiel, an Israelite prophet who warned Israelites (North Israel State of the 10 tribes after the break-off of Prophet Solomon Kingdom, while the other 2 tribes were with the rivalry southern state of Judea) about coming the Assyrian + Gimmerians attack to demolish Israel. Though we may be doubtful about the authenticity, the Ezekiel testimony nonetheless are well recorded by the Jewish text ready for study and discussions. There is not much can be confirmed from the Islamic text EXCEPT that he is amongst the anbiak and a righteous prophet of Allah. (this is a BIG clue)

Amongst Muslims scholar with keen work on "Dhul-kafl" and Buddha (there are many Buddhas...and we are not sure if we are only talking about just Gautama here..) is Dr. Zakir Naik http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/
http://www.islamawareness.net/Buddhism/scriptures.html

Recent study from an Indian physicist turned historians (better since pure historians are very political & usually failed mathematics and cannot add simple accounts) Dr Ranajit Pal (I have been following his arguments in Indian archeology forum since 1999) have potential latest findings and clues that are linking back the two "Dhul"s...and linked back to the ancient India with the Maurya Dynasty and the Great Asoka (the Constantine of Buddhism)...are all linked to the journey of Alexander (one of the 'potential' Dhul-Qarnain).

Try enjoy his fight against British Colonization of World History (not just Indian and Malaysian)...
http://www.ranajitpal.com/

Study & Research is the key here.....and many things will come out....provided we are sincere and willing to put aside ego and material positions...

Allahu'aklam.

no doubt that Islam is a cult and muslim is giaour, majority of them intend to rise up their evil muslim imperialism in this world, they wanna destroy other race culture which is not merge to Islam


those who ever watch the movie LORD OF THE RING, so you will realise which is the true ring in this world, the answer is the religion scripture which is telling a story begin with Adam was the first human ....Islam, Christian, Judaism....the example religion that evoke the majority of war in human modern history


tolerationism for majority muslim in this world is weak







.

The "religion of materialism" were/are the cause of Wars.

Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism were/are being used for the very purpose to grab power for materialism.

"Adam" as our common father should unite us all.....would it? That is the ring of engagement........not the "ring of corrupt power"s you seen in "Lord of the Ring"

Our common single unique "Lord" should unite our submission to the Law of Truth for mutual Peace

So....between Christianity, Judaism and Islam....who is the "Evil Power" as "Sauron"? (I asked this to Swingdoctor and he/she gave me a big smile)

The battle of race .. Malays vs Chinese and Indians ..

Typical....

If the Malay do not want to race...and be willing to live together and be peaceful with others......then UMNO is at a lost cause....Irrelevant.

...thus beating the racist drums....and pompang!

.