If the Muslim population in a secular country reaches a critical point, will the clerics who run the show demand that Sharia laws be passed, and eventually the country be declared an Islamic state and kaffirs have to pay extra tax and deprive of certain citizen-rights/benefits in accord to Islamic laws?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU...feature=related
I've always defended Islam, claiming that it is a religion of peace.
But I no longer think so the more I find out about this plagiarising religion started by a warlord and a sexual pervert.
Islam is said to be a "complete system", and not just a religion. It covers from the many aspects of how a person should live his life and treat others (depending on where which faith they align themselves to) to politics. Just because it is labelled as a "religion" does it also automatically have to mean that it is a good benevolent religion, compatible with our modern civilised world, believe in human- and equal-rights regardless of religion, believe in non-violence, believe in equality, believe that people are free to their own religion without prosecution or being disadvantaged and treated as second class citizens in Islamic states? Islam believes in forming non-secular Islamic states, were every citizens has to be Muslims or be at a disadvantage (pay higher tax) by the law; and this is totally unethical and immoral.
Some Chilling Facts:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/01...-government.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm
Watch this video as Islam gets exposed by Scholars and Ex-believers.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781
Just because its a religion, does it mean that it s
Discuss.
Full Version: Is the western world going to be Islamatized?
Do good, because it is good. Keep it pure. Once you throw in "do good because so-and-so says so" you start to drift away from the fundamentals. Religion is argued to organize these morals and make people fear god and stay true to these morals. But really I think religion is the middle mad...and easily corrupted. "Be good for goodness sake." <--an atheist bus ad theists found offensive....lol.
I find Islam to be a creepy controlling "religion". I don't think it will ever be able to take over Europe as Europeans are waking up to the Islamic threat. Plus, most European countries are too secular to impose any religion. The muslim population will not get high enough to change this.
There will always be people who won't fall into this regilious sect.
And, there is the blessing of freedom of choice.
But, I understand your concerns about this religion controlling lives beyond how other religion??
And, there is the blessing of freedom of choice.
But, I understand your concerns about this religion controlling lives beyond how other religion??
QUOTE (Creme Femme @ Aug 15 2009, 08:46 PM) 
I find Islam to be a creepy controlling "religion". I don't think it will ever be able to take over Europe as Europeans are waking up to the Islamic threat. Plus, most European countries are too secular to impose any religion. The muslim population will not get high enough to change this.
But if they keep on allowing immigration from those countries, and the people keep making babies like crazy, soon they might become the majority and their culture and crazy Islamic-thinking might dominate.
QUOTE (gabrielj81 @ Aug 15 2009, 11:35 PM)
But if they keep on allowing immigration from those countries, and the people keep making babies like crazy, soon they might become the majority and their culture and crazy Islamic-thinking might dominate.
This is exactly why religion and government should be totally separate. It eliminates this problem and does what is fair for everyone. People always think the majority is always right. It's all an illusion. The majority doesn't necessarily equate to the authority.
"They must find it difficult...Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." ---Gerald Massey
QUOTE (mikekk86 @ Aug 17 2009, 11:28 PM)
This is exactly why religion and government should be totally separate. It eliminates this problem and does what is fair for everyone. People always think the majority is always right. It's all an illusion. The majority doesn't necessarily equate to the authority.
"They must find it difficult...Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." ---Gerald Massey
"They must find it difficult...Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." ---Gerald Massey
Separation of gov't and religion is only an illusion.
People use their religion to guide them in their rulings and decisions.
They're human .. just people ..
Majority isn't always right?
Well, might makes right ....
QUOTE (avisitor @ Aug 28 2009, 08:40 AM)
Separation of gov't and religion is only an illusion.
People use their religion to guide them in their rulings and decisions.
They're human .. just people ..
Majority isn't always right?
Well, might makes right ....
People use their religion to guide them in their rulings and decisions.
They're human .. just people ..
Majority isn't always right?
Well, might makes right ....
Nothing's perfect and people's personal impulses drive them in many cases (which is why overall I am opposed to religion as it disallows people to have their own opinion and instead makes people bow down to someone else's opinion--- under the facade of god's opinion). But to call separation of church and state an illusion, and only an illusion, is too bold a statement. For than why is there legal abortion, for example? People are able to set aside their personal opinions to do what is fair in terms of choice. The doubt is not to be cast on the concept of separation, but on those who can't follow through well enough. Without the concept of separation of church and state, the situation would be MUCH worse. It's very existence is needed, albeit it may not be perfect for obvious reasons. It's like saying the police are an illusion of order because there is still crime. But without police, this society would be MUCH worse off.
"Right" and "wrong" from the standpoint of whoever is loudest or has the biggest weapons is, ironically, not the right way to view right and wrong. It has nothing to do with right or wrong. It has everything to do with power and power does not dictate morality or even fairness. Like I quoted Gerald Massey earlier, "They must find it difficult...Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." I don't care what the majority thinks as long as I have a valid argument against them.
Imagine when scientists tried to convince the 'majority' that the Earth was not flat. The truth trumped the majority, even when many had religious reasons to believe in a flat Earth.
QUOTE (mikekk86 @ Aug 28 2009, 05:01 PM)
Imagine when scientists tried to convince the 'majority' that the Earth was not flat. The truth trumped the majority, even when many had religious reasons to believe in a flat Earth.
Not true at all. Most educated religious people had already known the world was round for thousands of years, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian or Jewish. The only issue back then was the idea of the Earth orbiting the Sun, not because 'God said so', but simply because there was no logical way of proving such an idea, until Isaac Newton came along with his law of universal gravitation. Note that Newton himself was a 'religious nutcase' by today's standards.
QUOTE (gabrielj81 @ Aug 8 2009, 10:17 PM)
If the Muslim population in a secular country reaches a critical point, will the clerics who run the show demand that Sharia laws be passed, and eventually the country be declared an Islamic state and kaffirs have to pay extra tax and deprive of certain citizen-rights/benefits in accord to Islamic laws?
no, but they might try to carve a new independent state out of the existing state.
No, but the US government wants to scare people into falling for that lie.
QUOTE (gabrielj81 @ Aug 16 2009, 05:35 AM)
But if they keep on allowing immigration from those countries, and the people keep making babies like crazy, soon they might become the majority and their culture and crazy Islamic-thinking might dominate.
Making babies like crazy? Funny, that's the argument that some people used to make about blacks, asians and others. Sorry, the threat posed by making babies like crazy I can't take seriously.
QUOTE (Cumulus @ Sep 30 2009, 09:52 PM)
Making babies like crazy? Funny, that's the argument that some people used to make about blacks, asians and others. Sorry, the threat posed by making babies like crazy I can't take seriously.
I wouldn't underestimate the threat of those Muslim babies if I were you... you never know what those suicidal little fockers could do!
The western world loves democracy and Islam Sharia Laws is not democratic so Islam would not prevail in the western world.
QUOTE (martin_nuke @ Oct 2 2009, 06:47 AM)
The western world loves democracy and Islam Sharia Laws is not democratic so Islam would not prevail in the western world.
Sharia is a legal system, democracy is a political system, and communism is an economic system. There is no comparison, and yet I still see a lot of these nonsensical Sharia vs. democracy vs. communism comparisons.
More appropriate comparisons would be Sharia law vs. common law vs. civil law... or monarchy vs. democracy vs. dictatorship... or socialism vs. capitalism vs. communism.
Islamatized maybe, Islamicized...um when religiousity in general is sketch nowadays?
Anyone truly serious about wanting to know details of this phenomenon, read "Eurabia" by Bat Ye'or. Here is a little extract:
QUOTE
Bat Ye'or, a historian, has published groundbreaking works on minorities and "dhimmitude" (their inferior status) under Islam, including Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide (2002). Her latest book, Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis (Fairleigh d!ckinson University Press, 2005), argues that European governments, especially the French, have developed foreign policies aimed at winning the favor of Middle Eastern regimes and appeasing the growing militant Islamic minorities in their midst. Bat Ye'or addressed the Middle East Forum in New York on February 7, 2005.
Europe is undergoing two profound changes. The first is the weakening of Christianity. The second is demographic decline. Presently, across Europe, there are only two-thirds the number of children born necessary to sustain the population. The consequent drop in population has mostly been made good by immigration of Muslims. The fast-growing Muslim population is generally not integrated into the host societies nor politically acculturated to its norms. To the contrary, radical Islamic movements are gaining in strength among these émigré populations. In addition, European governments, especially the French, have developed foreign policies aimed at winning the favor of Middle Eastern regimes.
The question arises: is this a temporary aberration or is Europe on the road to losing its historic identity? The latter: Europe is rapidly being transformed into "Eurabia," a cultural and political appendage of the Arab/Muslim world that is fundamentally anti-Christian, anti-Semitic, anti-Western and anti-American.
European-Arab Partnership
The four-decade political and economic relationship between Europe and the Arab countries of the Middle East, institutionalized in the annual European-Arab Dialogue, has spawned a virulent and hostile amalgam called "Eurabia." It will not simply go away with a change in European Union (EU) policy. Rather, its roots are deeper. Indeed, how the Eurabia issue is handled today will largely determine Europe's future.
The images of Eurabia are manifest in millions of people burning American and Israeli flags during the Iraq war and openly supporting Yasir Arafat, Saddam Hussein, and other brutal dictators. Eurabia is also discernible in the explosion of anti-Semitic activity and a lack of empathy for Jewish rights in various European countries. Increasingly, Jews find themselves under attack, chiefly from Muslim extremists and radicalized youth, and European governments and law enforcement agencies react to these violations of rights only tepidly and only after the sustained pressure of publicity. The Eurabian phenomenon can also be seen in the intimidation into silence of critiques of Islam and Muslim society, epitomized by the slaying in broad daylight of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, who had made a documentary on the travails experienced by Muslim women within Muslim societies.
Eurabia in the Making
This pernicious merger began with Charles De Gaulle in the 1960s. De Gaulle saw that the power of France diminished with the loss of its colonies and he believed a more unified Europe would restore some French glory. In order to unify Europe, the continent needed to form an international bloc that could rival America. The Arab nations of the Middle East, unparalleled in their oil wealth, seemed to be good partners. Laying the foundation for this relationship, on November 27, 1967, De Gaulle said that French-Arab collaboration would be a fundamental element in French politics. Since then, France has adopted a highly amiable policy toward the Arab world and a hostile attitude toward Israel.
After the Yom Kippur War of 1973, the Arabs states proclaimed their oil boycott against Europe and specifically against countries with close ties to Israel. Only twenty days after the start of the war, the European community of nine countries recognized the rights of the Palestinians to participate in political negotiations and demanded Israel's return to the armistice lines of 1949, thus diverging from UN Security Council Resolution 242, passed in 1967 and still the basis of a negotiated settlement.
Consequently, the Arab boycott of Europe came to an end; and the French and German governments requested Arab leaders to enter into an official dialogue with European leaders to cement a solid relationship. The Arab leaders agreed but on condition that the Europeans had a unified foreign policy in synchrony with the interests of the Arab states.
Elements of this relationship are plenty evident. For example, European leaders see Arab reform running parallel to the resolution of the Israeli-Arab peace process. Again and again, Arab and European leaders exploit impasses in the Arab-Israeli conflict conveniently to delay democratic reforms.
The goal of Eurabia is to bring together the two shores of the Mediterranean with the interests of European society mirroring the interests of the Arab world. There should be a homogenization of culture, politics, and policy between the two shores. As a byproduct, American leaders have to deal with the growing Eurabian political culture instead of the former European body politic.
Unfortunately, most Europeans are not aware of the Eurabia merger. The new hatred found in Europe against America and Israel is commonplace and intertwines with many sectors of society, including the media, the culture, and the economy. Europe now facilitates the jihadist values of the Arab world. This is evident in its reluctance to forthrightly denounce Islamic terrorism and its need to indict America and Israel as the causes of conflict, rather than the victims of Islamic aggression. Mass immigration of Arabs across the Mediterranean to Europe, which was part of the friendship agreement, will only strengthen the Eurabian phenomenon. If Europe continues to respond with appeasement to Islamist terror attacks like that in Madrid in 2004, Eurabia will eventually become the complete European reality.
Conclusions for the United States
Americans need to take an assertive role in both combating Eurabia's dangers and preventing a similar merger from occurring within their own country, for this is a danger. For example, American Middle East studies specialists at universities are already predominantly pro-Arab/Islamic in orientation, dismissive of traditional standards of scholarship and not bashful about politicizing formal instruction.
Americans need to embrace their own genuinely pluralist culture. They should not renounce their identity and Judeo-Christian values to appease the current assertive intolerance emanating from the Arab/Muslim world.
Europe is undergoing two profound changes. The first is the weakening of Christianity. The second is demographic decline. Presently, across Europe, there are only two-thirds the number of children born necessary to sustain the population. The consequent drop in population has mostly been made good by immigration of Muslims. The fast-growing Muslim population is generally not integrated into the host societies nor politically acculturated to its norms. To the contrary, radical Islamic movements are gaining in strength among these émigré populations. In addition, European governments, especially the French, have developed foreign policies aimed at winning the favor of Middle Eastern regimes.
The question arises: is this a temporary aberration or is Europe on the road to losing its historic identity? The latter: Europe is rapidly being transformed into "Eurabia," a cultural and political appendage of the Arab/Muslim world that is fundamentally anti-Christian, anti-Semitic, anti-Western and anti-American.
European-Arab Partnership
The four-decade political and economic relationship between Europe and the Arab countries of the Middle East, institutionalized in the annual European-Arab Dialogue, has spawned a virulent and hostile amalgam called "Eurabia." It will not simply go away with a change in European Union (EU) policy. Rather, its roots are deeper. Indeed, how the Eurabia issue is handled today will largely determine Europe's future.
The images of Eurabia are manifest in millions of people burning American and Israeli flags during the Iraq war and openly supporting Yasir Arafat, Saddam Hussein, and other brutal dictators. Eurabia is also discernible in the explosion of anti-Semitic activity and a lack of empathy for Jewish rights in various European countries. Increasingly, Jews find themselves under attack, chiefly from Muslim extremists and radicalized youth, and European governments and law enforcement agencies react to these violations of rights only tepidly and only after the sustained pressure of publicity. The Eurabian phenomenon can also be seen in the intimidation into silence of critiques of Islam and Muslim society, epitomized by the slaying in broad daylight of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, who had made a documentary on the travails experienced by Muslim women within Muslim societies.
Eurabia in the Making
This pernicious merger began with Charles De Gaulle in the 1960s. De Gaulle saw that the power of France diminished with the loss of its colonies and he believed a more unified Europe would restore some French glory. In order to unify Europe, the continent needed to form an international bloc that could rival America. The Arab nations of the Middle East, unparalleled in their oil wealth, seemed to be good partners. Laying the foundation for this relationship, on November 27, 1967, De Gaulle said that French-Arab collaboration would be a fundamental element in French politics. Since then, France has adopted a highly amiable policy toward the Arab world and a hostile attitude toward Israel.
After the Yom Kippur War of 1973, the Arabs states proclaimed their oil boycott against Europe and specifically against countries with close ties to Israel. Only twenty days after the start of the war, the European community of nine countries recognized the rights of the Palestinians to participate in political negotiations and demanded Israel's return to the armistice lines of 1949, thus diverging from UN Security Council Resolution 242, passed in 1967 and still the basis of a negotiated settlement.
Consequently, the Arab boycott of Europe came to an end; and the French and German governments requested Arab leaders to enter into an official dialogue with European leaders to cement a solid relationship. The Arab leaders agreed but on condition that the Europeans had a unified foreign policy in synchrony with the interests of the Arab states.
Elements of this relationship are plenty evident. For example, European leaders see Arab reform running parallel to the resolution of the Israeli-Arab peace process. Again and again, Arab and European leaders exploit impasses in the Arab-Israeli conflict conveniently to delay democratic reforms.
The goal of Eurabia is to bring together the two shores of the Mediterranean with the interests of European society mirroring the interests of the Arab world. There should be a homogenization of culture, politics, and policy between the two shores. As a byproduct, American leaders have to deal with the growing Eurabian political culture instead of the former European body politic.
Unfortunately, most Europeans are not aware of the Eurabia merger. The new hatred found in Europe against America and Israel is commonplace and intertwines with many sectors of society, including the media, the culture, and the economy. Europe now facilitates the jihadist values of the Arab world. This is evident in its reluctance to forthrightly denounce Islamic terrorism and its need to indict America and Israel as the causes of conflict, rather than the victims of Islamic aggression. Mass immigration of Arabs across the Mediterranean to Europe, which was part of the friendship agreement, will only strengthen the Eurabian phenomenon. If Europe continues to respond with appeasement to Islamist terror attacks like that in Madrid in 2004, Eurabia will eventually become the complete European reality.
Conclusions for the United States
Americans need to take an assertive role in both combating Eurabia's dangers and preventing a similar merger from occurring within their own country, for this is a danger. For example, American Middle East studies specialists at universities are already predominantly pro-Arab/Islamic in orientation, dismissive of traditional standards of scholarship and not bashful about politicizing formal instruction.
Americans need to embrace their own genuinely pluralist culture. They should not renounce their identity and Judeo-Christian values to appease the current assertive intolerance emanating from the Arab/Muslim world.
Why did Obama convert to Islam to Christianity?
its likely because of his 2nd dad.
he said religion wasnt important.
so obama lost Islam
of course after that maybe he met religious christian relatives.
so u see he has nothing particular extreme thought about both religion, just need something to believe in
he said religion wasnt important.
so obama lost Islam
of course after that maybe he met religious christian relatives.
so u see he has nothing particular extreme thought about both religion, just need something to believe in
People who "warn" about islam tend to underestimate the simple & basic xenophobia that can be mobilized in Europe. Fine, if you think its only about some atheist "Euro-Tards" being outbreed by islamic immigrants (which gleeful Americans & Israelis but also some East Asians love to point out)...
Martin_nuke
Obama and his wife were ambitious on the Chicago political scene. The soon will have realised that to get anywhere you need the support of the WASP's and the WASP's will not support a Muslim candidate for anything. So why not say you are Christian and you get everyone's support? But now he is beginning to play the Islam card surreptitiously.
QUOTE
Why did Obama convert to Islam to Christianity?
Obama and his wife were ambitious on the Chicago political scene. The soon will have realised that to get anywhere you need the support of the WASP's and the WASP's will not support a Muslim candidate for anything. So why not say you are Christian and you get everyone's support? But now he is beginning to play the Islam card surreptitiously.
once again islamophobia syndrome....what a joke....always afraid with your own shadow hahaha.......
it's obvious why Muslims makes more babies than non-Muslims, its because Muslims follow the real system of family teach by GOD. look how western people who always proud with their liberty and secularism has ruin the real family system by adopting free sex, homosexual, fornication and ban on polygamy.
to sustain a culture, the people of that culture need to have at least 2.11 birth rate and all of european and american countries their birth rate are below 2.11
and all muslims in these western countries has birth rate above 5 ...............wow ....now Islam is the biggest religion in da world and many caucasion who hate Islam before when they read quran ......they revert to Islam .............
what can I do .....God loves people who obey them and always be patient
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
it's obvious why Muslims makes more babies than non-Muslims, its because Muslims follow the real system of family teach by GOD. look how western people who always proud with their liberty and secularism has ruin the real family system by adopting free sex, homosexual, fornication and ban on polygamy.
to sustain a culture, the people of that culture need to have at least 2.11 birth rate and all of european and american countries their birth rate are below 2.11
and all muslims in these western countries has birth rate above 5 ...............wow ....now Islam is the biggest religion in da world and many caucasion who hate Islam before when they read quran ......they revert to Islam .............
what can I do .....God loves people who obey them and always be patient
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
Slam dunk phase 1 commence
Typical Muslim mentality. Criticizing the West for immoralities, then, fantasizing about the superiority of Islam. You are living in your own bubble universe my human friend. Why don't you humbled yourself down and praise the science and technology that you have been utilizing for your own selfish comfort? Can you even traveled without technology? Look at yourself, your house, the electronic appliances and gadgets that you utilized, they are all product of Unbelievers who drink alcohol, eat pork and perhaps, immoral by your standard.
Your own kind fled those Islamic "paradise" such as Iran, Pakistan or Algeria to have a better life in the West, now you bite the hands that feed you? If Islam is to take over the whole world, there will be a great catastrophe that will end up in returning to the Dark Age. Sunnis and Shias could not come up with unity for 1400 years, what do you expect from a bunch of deluded fools that occupy the leadership of Muslim world?
All you know is to resound the trumpet: "adopting free sex, homosexual, fornication, and ban on polygamy" . But your "Prophet" did worse than this. He launched more than 75 wars and raids during his 10 year Medinan period and accumulating wives and booty. Islam allowed unlimited sex which is much more severe than free sex. It allows sex with female captive of wars outside the fold of marriage. Have you ever imagine having sex with a nine year old girl?
God does not love your own kind at all. Look at your own Islamic countries, 56 nations, their conditions are terrible. Please Mr softhard, your low self esteem induced you to blinded your eyes and deafen your ears. What's so great about Islam? Islamic history was full of bloodshed, treacheries, and conspiracies. What sort of salvation are you advocating? You have nothing to offer anything.
Humanity is but one family.
QUOTE
once again islamophobia syndrome....what a joke....always afraid with your own shadow hahaha.......
it's obvious why Muslims makes more babies than non-Muslims, its because Muslims follow the real system of family teach by GOD. look how western people who always proud with their liberty and secularism has ruin the real family system by adopting free sex, homosexual, fornication and ban on polygamy.
to sustain a culture, the people of that culture need to have at least 2.11 birth rate and all of european and american countries their birth rate are below 2.11
and all muslims in these western countries has birth rate above 5 ...............wow ....now Islam is the biggest religion in da world and many caucasion who hate Islam before when they read quran ......they revert to Islam .............
what can I do .....God loves people who obey them and always be patient
it's obvious why Muslims makes more babies than non-Muslims, its because Muslims follow the real system of family teach by GOD. look how western people who always proud with their liberty and secularism has ruin the real family system by adopting free sex, homosexual, fornication and ban on polygamy.
to sustain a culture, the people of that culture need to have at least 2.11 birth rate and all of european and american countries their birth rate are below 2.11
and all muslims in these western countries has birth rate above 5 ...............wow ....now Islam is the biggest religion in da world and many caucasion who hate Islam before when they read quran ......they revert to Islam .............
what can I do .....God loves people who obey them and always be patient
Typical Muslim mentality. Criticizing the West for immoralities, then, fantasizing about the superiority of Islam. You are living in your own bubble universe my human friend. Why don't you humbled yourself down and praise the science and technology that you have been utilizing for your own selfish comfort? Can you even traveled without technology? Look at yourself, your house, the electronic appliances and gadgets that you utilized, they are all product of Unbelievers who drink alcohol, eat pork and perhaps, immoral by your standard.
Your own kind fled those Islamic "paradise" such as Iran, Pakistan or Algeria to have a better life in the West, now you bite the hands that feed you? If Islam is to take over the whole world, there will be a great catastrophe that will end up in returning to the Dark Age. Sunnis and Shias could not come up with unity for 1400 years, what do you expect from a bunch of deluded fools that occupy the leadership of Muslim world?
All you know is to resound the trumpet: "adopting free sex, homosexual, fornication, and ban on polygamy" . But your "Prophet" did worse than this. He launched more than 75 wars and raids during his 10 year Medinan period and accumulating wives and booty. Islam allowed unlimited sex which is much more severe than free sex. It allows sex with female captive of wars outside the fold of marriage. Have you ever imagine having sex with a nine year old girl?
God does not love your own kind at all. Look at your own Islamic countries, 56 nations, their conditions are terrible. Please Mr softhard, your low self esteem induced you to blinded your eyes and deafen your ears. What's so great about Islam? Islamic history was full of bloodshed, treacheries, and conspiracies. What sort of salvation are you advocating? You have nothing to offer anything.
Humanity is but one family.
It's just fear mongering, only 3% of population in the European union are Muslim. Since most of them are concentrated in a few major cities, Europeans think they are everywhere.
The feminist ideal of the independent woman who can't be bothered with having children has put the western world at a serious disadvantage to the Islamic world demographically. The way things are going now, its only a matter of time.
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