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Suzuka00
QUOTE
Princess Urduja: The Mother of Ibalois?
Have you ever heard of Princess Urduja? If your elementary teacher was like ours, she would have told you about the warrior princess who is believed to have ruled the Kingdom of Tawalisi way before Magellan begged the Queen of Spain to give him those danged ships to, in the words of George W, circumcise the globe. [Note: The painting above right is a visualization of Urduja by National Artist Fernando Amorsolo.]

Princess Urduja and her kingdom [queendom?] was first mentioned in the travel accounts of Muslim explorer Ibn Battuta. Our national hero Jose Rizal then speculated, based on the time and distance it took Battuta to travel from said kingdom to China, that Talawisi was in Luzon. Subsequent scholars placed the kingdom in Pangasinan and its neighboring areas.

Anyway, there is an ongoing debate whether Urduja ever existed and whether the Kingdom of Tawalisi really is modern day Pangasinan. Incidentally, the province of Pangasinan honors the memory of Urduja by naming its capitol the Urduja Palace and by putting up a statue in her honor.

Rather than rehashing the "Is Urduja Fact or Fiction" debate here, you would be better informed if you visit the Pangasinan Blog where this issue is much discussed: The Case for Princess Urduja, Tawalisi in Pangasinan?, Kingdom of Talawisi: It Seems It Existed, Historian Wants Urduja House Renamed.

Now, one evidence being put forward by those who argue that Urduja is real and that Talawisi can be located in the Pangasinan area is the oral history of our Ibaloi kailiyans which traces the Ibaloi ancestry to Urduja.

From Chi Balmaceda Guiterrez's In Search of a Princess:
Urduja's name still has great resonance among the Ibaloi, one of the major ethnolinguistic tribes in the Cordillera region. Dr. Morr Tadeo Pungayan, a respected scholar of Ibaloi culture and professor at the St. Louis University of Baguio City, said, "Linguistically, Urduja is Deboxah (pronounced Debuca) in Ibaloi. We've always had a woman named Deboxah from time immemorial among the genrations of Ibaloi. The name usually describes a woman of strong quality and character who's nobly descended. That name is an Ibaloi name. That's why Ibaloi trace their ancestry from Urduja".

The Cordillera tribes, also known collectively as Igorots, pride themselves as being the only ethnic group that doesn't talk about the origin of man according to Spanish chronicles. Among the tribes, genealogy and family history are orally passed history. The Ibaloi, just like other highland tribes, could easily trace their ancestry. This is ensured by their custom of naming newborns after ancestors to help keep their memory alive and evoke affection and protection.

"No Ibaloi will bear the name of an ancestor unless she's related," Dr. Pungayan explained. While the Bontoc tribe bestows the name of an ancestor to a grandchild, the Ibaloi style is namesaking the great-grandchild, he added.

A book on the history of Benguet province, written by Anavic Bagamasbad and Zenaida Hamada-Pawid, shows the Benguet genealogy tracing tribal family lines from the year 1380 to 1899. The book says, "The extent of inter-settlement alliances is climaxed in the memory of Tublay informants with the reign of Deboxah, Princess Urduja, in Pinga. She's acknowledged as the granddaughter of Udayan, an outstanding warrior of Darew. Her death signaled continuous decline of kinship and alliance between highland and lowland settlements."
Hah! That should put the Urduja doubters in their place, no?

NOTE: If you're interested in further exploring the Pangasinan-Ibaloi connection, Lovelyn has a very interesting family story here.

http://www.igorotblogger.com/2007/07/princ...of-ibalois.html
QUOTE
LANOG

Post 5: Lolo Ramon's Story

"Back in Tinoc, my father, Fontano and Lanog would go hunting for our meat. Lanog would always come home late with his own prey - just in time to feast on whatever my father and Fontano had brought home first. My mother would ask my father as Fontano hands her the meat, "Mhen Tu'wah Lanog?"(So, where's Lanog?). He will not answer but looks at the woods like someone is about to come out. Hours would pass, no one appears."

"My mother and my sister, Dalen-na, will cook for supper while my other sister, Sab-ot, looks after the baby."

"I like staying out and wait for Lanog. When he does, he walks straight to my mother and seems not aware I was there anticipating his coming. I always thought, maybe because he is hungry". Ramon remembers.

My Dad's extended imagination may be possible if I stayed young. He said, "Maybe Lanog had reached Pangasinan and their dialect originated from our Kalanguya.

Back when I was in college, I speak Kalanguya with my classmates from Pangasinan and they do the same with their lingo. Another is when I go buy fish from the Public Market, I'll ask the vendor, "San piga?"(How much?). Pretending I speak their tongue, I always get a discount.

It makes me smile and think of the people from Bokod Benguet who knows this old Ambuklao joke. About the typhoon that drifted some Bokod Ibaloi folks thru the Ambuklao River down to the low lands. They then became the Pangalatots. The slight changes of their dialect from Ibaloi was the cause of amnesia. Those head bumps would be a unique lineage for the said race if it's true.

Was it then the Ibalois or Lanog?

http://myracounteurattempt.blogspot.com/2007/06/lanog.html
flipcombatmedic
the question is how did you get debucca to urduja? and there's no prior connection of ibn battuta's prior to rizals, and rizal's only connection was estimation of travel, no physical or not even other accounts (rizal based his connection on estimating ship travel from seasia to china...that's the only connection)

i don't doubt debucca ever existing, nor that she was the mother of ibalois, but how debucca is ibn battuta's urduja is something else or that she ever existed (urduja) is a different matter.
trismegistos
In Rihlah, the travelogue written by Ibn Battuttah, the name of the princess is written in Arabic consonants equivalent to English GTRDJ or WHRDJ which was read by Dr. Jose Rizal and other authors during his time as Wahi Arduja and later it is read as Urduja.

In the absence of other collaborating documents, inscriptions or artifacts to the almost fantastical first-hand experience of Ibn Battuttah, all these are mere speculations except perhaps mystical revelations, intuitions, hunches, gutfeel, right-brain thinking or non-linear thinking, astral travelling, "reading of the akashic records" or "reading the book of life", could make such truths available to mortal men. I have no doubt Jose Rizal who was both a mason and a mystic could had believed the reality of such a princess of course named differently and he would not waste his time calculating the coordinates of Ibn Battuttah's travels if he didn't believe some of the almost fabled stories especially about the Kingdom of Sanfotsie or Shih-lih-fu-shih or Ta-wa-lih-shih, Battuttah's Tawalisi.
Ofcourse, the wisdom or intuition of a lowly Filipino peasant who believe on such fantabulous tales will not stand against the scrutiny of left-brain predominant individuals especially those Harvard or Oxford trained academicians and deemed such as non-sensical. Jose Rizal was such a rare gem during his time who mastered both left and right brain thinking. Fortunately, many Filipinos are now being born today with such capabilities. I can enumerate a few forum members like shambalista, katagalugan, renascimento or taybenco, judgefloro and azaz. O sige na nga isama na natin si suzuka. he he
flipcombatmedic
hahaha. yeah judge floro, shambalista and suzuka. and you. lol. nice tandem.

we should definitely change the philippine education system into the 'gutfeel' system. we will see more of the likes of Monteclaro's Maragtas getting published as real history. lol. everybody can make their gutfeel philippine historical truth. That's democratic right there. That's EDSA power numero tres. No wonder you guys love wikipedia. lol
Suzuka00
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 14 2009, 07:50 PM) *
In Rihlah, the travelogue written by Ibn Battuttah, the name of the princess is written in Arabic consonants equivalent to English GTRDJ or WHRDJ which was read by Dr. Jose Rizal and other authors during his time as Wahi Arduja and later it is read as Urduja.

In the absence of other collaborating documents, inscriptions or artifacts to the almost fantastical first-hand experience of Ibn Battuttah, all these are mere speculations except perhaps mystical revelations, intuitions, hunches, gutfeel, right-brain thinking or non-linear thinking, astral travelling, "reading of the akashic records" or "reading the book of life", could make such truths available to mortal men. I have no doubt Jose Rizal who was both a mason and a mystic could had believed the reality of such a princess of course named differently and he would not waste his time calculating the coordinates of Ibn Battuttah's travels if he didn't believe some of the almost fabled stories especially about the Kingdom of Sanfotsie or Shih-lih-fu-shih or Ta-wa-lih-shih, Battuttah's Tawalisi.
Ofcourse, the wisdom or intuition of a lowly Filipino peasant who believe on such fantabulous tales will not stand against the scrutiny of left-brain predominant individuals especially those Harvard or Oxford trained academicians and deemed such as non-sensical. Jose Rizal was such a rare gem during his time who mastered both left and right brain thinking. Fortunately, many Filipinos are now being born today with such capabilities. I can enumerate a few forum members like shambalista, katagalugan, renascimento or taybenco, judgefloro and azaz. O sige na nga isama na natin si suzuka. he he

Or Wahi Arduja is maybe the sanskrit name or pseudonym of Deboxah,the royals of Luzon have sanskrit names such as Jayadewa....

the bulacan-pampanga or zambales area is the best location for our capital city in my opinion.
trismegistos
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Aug 14 2009, 09:29 PM) *
hahaha. yeah judge floro, shambalista and suzuka. and you. lol. nice tandem.

we should definitely change the philippine education system into the 'gutfeel' system. we will see more of the likes of Monteclaro's Maragtas getting published as real history. lol. everybody can make their gutfeel philippine historical truth. That's democratic right there. That's EDSA power numero tres. No wonder you guys love wikipedia. lol


Ha ha. That was expected from a white-washed fil-sham.

Judge floro, paki curse nga ang isang itong isa sa mga may utak-talangka(crab-mentality)na ayaw mo. he he

Anyways, joke only.

It will be a nice addition to our educational system, to teach people how to think holistically both right brain and left brain. In fact, in corporate set-up, executives are taught how to tap into their right brain or intuition in decision-making etc.

The Maragtas legend is an allusion to the actual Prince Balagtas who came to the Philippine isles as well as the Myth of the Ten Bornean datus is a retelling of the actual invasion of the Bruneian-Bisayan Sultan Bulkeiah or Nakhoda Ragam.
JohnComnenus
I've been away in this forum for a time, but still nothing has changed except that Suzuka Syndrome had gone to worse icon_sad.gif

Yeah, trismegistos, shambalista and suzuka are just ruining the ruined forum
trismegistos
QUOTE (JohnComnenus @ Aug 15 2009, 04:22 AM) *
I've been away in this forum for a time, but still nothing has changed except that Suzuka Syndrome had gone to worse icon_sad.gif

Yeah, trismegistos, shambalista and suzuka are just ruining the ruined forum

tinamaan ka ba? Another white-washed fil-sham.
This forum doesn't have an integrity and dignity in the first place. It's just a showcase of one's culture, social standing or ethnicity clashed against another. Instead of its objective of showcasing camaraderie and brotherhood of all races and culture.
Suzuka00
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 15 2009, 04:35 AM) *
tinamaan ka ba? Another white-washed fil-sham.
This forum doesn't have an integrity and dignity in the first place. It's just a showcase of one's culture, social standing or ethnicity clashed against another. Instead of its objective of showcasing camaraderie and brotherhood of all races and culture.

What I really hate what the spanish did to kapampangans,It was because of Kapampangan traitors,Ungrateful Visayans,Kumintang and Iluko who hate kapampangans allot of Kapampangans were encouraged to change their language during hispanic era creating the bastardized northern "tagalog" dialect whose accent is still Kapampangan...
cry2.gif
Since Bulacan used to be a part of Pampanga Judge Floro and Imelda Marcos have kapampangan background....
trismegistos
QUOTE (Suzuka00 @ Aug 15 2009, 05:41 AM) *
What I really hate what the spanish did to kapampangans,It was because of Kapampangans traitors,Ungrateful Visayans,Kumintang and Ilocanos who hate kapampangans allot of Kapampangans were encouraged to change their language during hispanic era creating the bastardized northern "tagalog" dialect whose accent is still Kapampangan...
cry2.gif
Since Bulacan used to be a part of Pampanga Judge Floro and Imelda Marcos have kapampangan background....

You forgot to mention Jose Rizal(via Alonso Realonda-Quintos of Bulacan and Mercado of Pampanga), Marcelo del Pilar, Gregorio del Pilar, Andres Bonifacio(Tondo, Macabebe/Masantol), the Financiers of the books(Noli and Fili) of Jose Rizal were Viola and Ventura, Ninoy Aquino, Jose Abad Santos, Gil Puyat, the founder of Iglesia ni Cristo who was Felix Manalo, Apollo Quiboloy(evangelist based in Davao), Soriano of Ang Dating Daan, Rufino Cardinal Santos(first filipino cardinal), Zoilo Hilario, Ambeth Ocampo, Lea Salonga, Rogelio dela Rosa, Other famous local personalities known to be Kapampangan or at least to have Kapampangan parents are Rudy Fernandez, Fernando Poe Jr(a Gatbonton), Sharon Cuneta, Helen Gamboa, Dolphy, Vilma Santos, Kris Aquino, Dong Puno, Lorna Tolentino, Robin Padilla, Randy David, Judy Ann Santos, Nanette Medved, Sarah Geronimo, Glydel Mercado, Abbygale Arenas, Ato Agustin, Liza Lorena, Tonton Gutierrez, Yeng Guiao, Francisco "Django" Bustamante, Rosal Rosal, Arwind Santos, Jean Garcia, Miriam Quiambao, Rufa Mae Quinto, Senators Francis Pangilinan, Lito Lapid and Manny Villar, Regine Tolentino, Marvin Agustin, Katipunero Aurelio Tolentino, Tony Laxa/Ferrer, Alma Moreno(Laxamana), Joey Marquez, Charlene Gonzales, Luis Gonzales, Nanette Inventor, Jacklyn Jose, Hilda Coronel, Jess Lapid, Atty. Espiridion Laxa, Cecile Licad, Diomedes Maturan, Maricel Morales, Louie Ocampo, Fred Panopio, Chuck Perez, Elwood Perez, Pugak and Tugak, Atty Ricardo 'Dong' Puno, Ricardo J. Puno, Dante Rivero, Tony Santos, Rafael Yabut, Bro. Andrew Gonzalez, Rey Langit, Mon David, Gene Gonzales, Satur Ocampo, Luis Taruc, Current Philippine Chief Justice Reynato Puno, Christopher de Leon and of course, the Macabebe ruler Tarik Soliman of the Battle of Bangkusay (who derided Lakandula and Soliman for being cowards and with the death of the former along with his Macabebe and Hagonoy warriors paved the way for the pacification of the rest of Luzon and ultimately of the whole Philippine isles), etc.
Suzuka00
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 15 2009, 05:52 AM) *
You forgot to mention Jose Rizal(via Alonso Realonda-Quintos of Bulacan and Mercado of Pampanga), Marcelo del Pilar, Gregorio del Pilar, Andres Bonifacio(Tondo, Macabebe/Masantol), the Financiers of the books(Noli and Fili) of Jose Rizal were Viola and Ventura, Ninoy Aquino, Jose Abad Santos, Gil Puyat, the founder of Iglesia ni Cristo who was Felix Manalo, Apollo Quiboloy(evangelist based in Davao), Soriano of Ang Dating Daan, Rufino Cardinal Santos(first filipino cardinal), Zoilo Hilario, Ambeth Ocampo, Lea Salonga, Rogelio dela Rosa, Other famous local personalities known to be Kapampangan or at least to have Kapampangan parents are Rudy Fernandez, Fernando Poe Jr(a Gatbonton), Sharon Cuneta, Helen Gamboa, Dolphy, Vilma Santos, Kris Aquino, Dong Puno, Lorna Tolentino, Robin Padilla, Randy David, Judy Ann Santos, Nanette Medved, Sarah Geronimo, Glydel Mercado, Abbygale Arenas, Ato Agustin, Liza Lorena, Tonton Gutierrez, Yeng Guiao, Francisco "Django" Bustamante, Rosal Rosal, Arwind Santos, Jean Garcia, Miriam Quiambao, Rufa Mae Quinto, Senators Francis Pangilinan, Lito Lapid and Manny Villar, Regine Tolentino, Marvin Agustin, Current Philippine Chief Justice Reynato Puno and Christopher de Leon. and of course, the Macabebe ruler Tarik Soliman of the Battle of Bangkusay (who derided Lakandula and Soliman for being cowards and with the death of the former along with his Macabebe and Hagonoy warriors paved the way for the pacification of the rest of Luzon and ultimately of the whole Philippine isles), etc.

You forgot Diether Ocampo,Francisco Balagtas,Bayani Fernando,Efren "Bata" Reyes,Obet Pagdanganan,Richard Gordon,Loi Estrada(from Zambales),Angel Locsin,Romy Garduce,Ramon Magsaysay,Rey Malonzo,Manuel L.Quezon and last but not the least Willie Revillame...

Angara and Macapagal clans are obviously kapampangan too but they have a negative impression.....

I will create a video presentation about this...

Kung ako ang masusunod ime-merge ko ang mga probinsyang dating part ng pampanga including rizal and northern quezon...
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 15 2009, 04:15 AM) *
Ha ha. That was expected from a white-washed fil-sham.

Judge floro, paki curse nga ang isang itong isa sa mga may utak-talangka(crab-mentality)na ayaw mo. he he

Anyways, joke only.

It will be a nice addition to our educational system, to teach people how to think holistically both right brain and left brain. In fact, in corporate set-up, executives are taught how to tap into their right brain or intuition in decision-making etc.

The Maragtas legend is an allusion to the actual Prince Balagtas who came to the Philippine isles as well as the Myth of the Ten Bornean datus is a retelling of the actual invasion of the Bruneian-Bisayan Sultan Bulkeiah or Nakhoda Ragam.

This is what I hate about Filipinos who have no or little credibility, they often use "You're not Filipino" when they're not in the right.

Just because you're doing service by setting the standards right, they keep on harking back to backwardisms as an excuse to make their idiocy legitimate. Then they are the ones calling you "crabs"?! When these 'social cancers' are the very reason why our people are so far behind. The nerve! The social quackdoms.

"...the Maragtas is an original work by Pedro A. Monteclaro published in mixed Hiligaynon and Kin-iraya in Iloilo in 1907 which claims to be nothing more than that. It is based on written and oral sources then available, and contain three sorts of subject matter—folk customs still being practiced or remembered by old folks, the description of an idealized confederation whose existence there is reasonable grounds to doubt and for which there is no evidence, and a legend recorded in 1858 of a migration of Bornean settlers, some of whom are still remembered as folk heroes, pagan deities, or progenitors of part of the present population of Panay. There is not reason to doubt that this legend preserves the memory of some actual event, but it is not possible to date the event itself or to decide which of its details are historic fact and which are the embellishments of generations of oral transmission". (Scott 1984:103).

http://www.admu.edu.ph/offices/mirlab/panublion/islas.html

"First and foremost, the Maragtas, which is the source of the Panay hulabaloo, is a book of legends - nothing more and nothing less. It is not a historical fact, but rather part of folklore that seems to get spiced up with every telling.

Pedro Alcantara Monteclaro, who wrote Maragtas in 1907, did not translated the work from an ancient prehispanic manuscript but clearly said in the preface of the book that he himself was its author. And although he did refer to two old written documents, he said that he did not publish them due to their poor condition and he did not imply that they were transcribed in his book.

The publisher of Maragtas, Salvador Laguda, even noted that, "According to the author, this Maragtas should not be considered as containing facts all of which are accurate and true, because many of his data do not tally with what we hear from old men."

...

In Maragtas, Monteclaro also told the story of the creation of the Confederation of Madya-as in Panay under the rule of Datu Sumakwel and he gave the details of its constitution. In spite of the importance that should be placed on such an early constitution and his detailed description of it, Monteclaro gave no source for his information. Also, it appears that the Confederation of Madya-as is unique to Monteclaro's book. It has never been documented anywhere else nor is it among the legends of the unhispanized tribes of Panay.


...

William Henry Scott proved in his dissertation that Maragtas and the Confederation of Madya-as were not actual ancient documents from long ago but only legends that were collected and in some cases possibly concocted by Pedro Monteclaro and published in 1907 in his book entitled Maragtas. As for the Maragtas Code, Scott found that it was merely an invention of Guillermo Santiago-Cuino's mind which was probably based on Monteclaro's book and published in 1938.


...

While making an effort to correct the errors of the past, some historians mistook Maragtas to be one of the many hoaxes of Philippine history rather than a mere legend. When Sonia Zaide revised History of the Republic of the Philippines in 1987, she mistakenly described Maragtas as a fraudulent document:

The legends surrounding the settling of the Philippines by Malay migrants are notably celebrated in the ati-atihan festival and perpetrated by hoaxers in the fraudulent documents containing the Maragtas chronicle and the Code of Kalantiaw...Although previously accepted by some historians, including the present authors, it has become obvious that the Maragtas is only the imaginary creation of Pedro A. Monteclaro, a Visayan public official and poet, in Iloilo in 1907. He based it on folk customs and legends, largely transmitted by oral tradition."

And lastly this quote I really agree on: "It would be unfair to brand Pedro Monteclaro a hoaxer or his book a fraudulent document because he never claimed that Maragtas was anything more than a collection of legends. Any frauds involving his book are perpetrated by other later writers who misrepresented it as an authentic ancient document."

...and those dumbasses who assumed so. LOL.

from this blog: http://writingthirty.blogspot.com/2005/05/...nean-datus.html


You know when I was a kid I remember the term "ilustrado" that refer to my idols like Jaena and Rizal. They sought outside to find the truth so that they may bring back to their nation the gift of knowledge so that it may better it. But I didn't know what it means. When I got my education I'd still rather not be called an ilustrado, but perhaps we should in service of our nation be even better than the "enlightened ones".

Let us please not become the social cancers that they were referring to. There's proper education out there. Let the internet be the source of education not quackiness.


Suzuka00
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Aug 15 2009, 10:47 AM) *
This is what I hate about Filipinos who have no or little credibility, they often use "You're not Filipino" when they're not in the right.

Just because you're doing service by setting the standards right, they keep on harking back to backwardisms as an excuse to make their idiocy legitimate. Then they are the ones calling you "crabs"?! When these 'social cancers' are the very reason why our people are so far behind. The nerve! The social quackdoms.

"...the Maragtas is an original work by Pedro A. Monteclaro published in mixed Hiligaynon and Kin-iraya in Iloilo in 1907 which claims to be nothing more than that. It is based on written and oral sources then available, and contain three sorts of subject matter—folk customs still being practiced or remembered by old folks, the description of an idealized confederation whose existence there is reasonable grounds to doubt and for which there is no evidence, and a legend recorded in 1858 of a migration of Bornean settlers, some of whom are still remembered as folk heroes, pagan deities, or progenitors of part of the present population of Panay. There is not reason to doubt that this legend preserves the memory of some actual event, but it is not possible to date the event itself or to decide which of its details are historic fact and which are the embellishments of generations of oral transmission". (Scott 1984:103).

http://www.admu.edu.ph/offices/mirlab/panublion/islas.html

"First and foremost, the Maragtas, which is the source of the Panay hulabaloo, is a book of legends - nothing more and nothing less. It is not a historical fact, but rather part of folklore that seems to get spiced up with every telling.

Pedro Alcantara Monteclaro, who wrote Maragtas in 1907, did not translated the work from an ancient prehispanic manuscript but clearly said in the preface of the book that he himself was its author. And although he did refer to two old written documents, he said that he did not publish them due to their poor condition and he did not imply that they were transcribed in his book.

The publisher of Maragtas, Salvador Laguda, even noted that, "According to the author, this Maragtas should not be considered as containing facts all of which are accurate and true, because many of his data do not tally with what we hear from old men."

...

In Maragtas, Monteclaro also told the story of the creation of the Confederation of Madya-as in Panay under the rule of Datu Sumakwel and he gave the details of its constitution. In spite of the importance that should be placed on such an early constitution and his detailed description of it, Monteclaro gave no source for his information. Also, it appears that the Confederation of Madya-as is unique to Monteclaro's book. It has never been documented anywhere else nor is it among the legends of the unhispanized tribes of Panay.


...

William Henry Scott proved in his dissertation that Maragtas and the Confederation of Madya-as were not actual ancient documents from long ago but only legends that were collected and in some cases possibly concocted by Pedro Monteclaro and published in 1907 in his book entitled Maragtas. As for the Maragtas Code, Scott found that it was merely an invention of Guillermo Santiago-Cuino's mind which was probably based on Monteclaro's book and published in 1938.


...

While making an effort to correct the errors of the past, some historians mistook Maragtas to be one of the many hoaxes of Philippine history rather than a mere legend. When Sonia Zaide revised History of the Republic of the Philippines in 1987, she mistakenly described Maragtas as a fraudulent document:

The legends surrounding the settling of the Philippines by Malay migrants are notably celebrated in the ati-atihan festival and perpetrated by hoaxers in the fraudulent documents containing the Maragtas chronicle and the Code of Kalantiaw...Although previously accepted by some historians, including the present authors, it has become obvious that the Maragtas is only the imaginary creation of Pedro A. Monteclaro, a Visayan public official and poet, in Iloilo in 1907. He based it on folk customs and legends, largely transmitted by oral tradition."

And lastly this quote I really agree on: "It would be unfair to brand Pedro Monteclaro a hoaxer or his book a fraudulent document because he never claimed that Maragtas was anything more than a collection of legends. Any frauds involving his book are perpetrated by other later writers who misrepresented it as an authentic ancient document."

...and those dumbasses who assumed so. LOL.

from this blog: http://writingthirty.blogspot.com/2005/05/...nean-datus.html


You know when I was a kid I remember the term "ilustrado" that refer to my idols like Jaena and Rizal. They sought outside to find the truth so that they may bring back to their nation the gift of knowledge so that it may better it. But I didn't know what it means. When I got my education I'd still rather not be called an ilustrado, but perhaps we should in service of our nation be even better than the "enlightened ones".

Let us please not become the social cancers that they were referring to. There's proper education out there. Let the internet be the source of education not quackiness.

AMBOY KASI EH! embarassedlaugh.gif
flipcombatmedic
Born and raised in the Philippines. It has little to do with where I grew up, ... education is a universal process. My Filipino grandfather, who unfortunately only finished grade school due to poverty, once said "God all gave us brains, but not the capability/propensity to use it."
trismegistos
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Aug 15 2009, 09:47 AM) *
This is what I hate about Filipinos who have no or little credibility, they often use "You're not Filipino" when they're not in the right.

Just because you're doing service by setting the standards right, they keep on harking back to backwardisms as an excuse to make their idiocy legitimate. Then they are the ones calling you "crabs"?! When these 'social cancers' are the very reason why our people are so far behind. The nerve! The social quackdoms.

"...the Maragtas is an original work by Pedro A. Monteclaro published in mixed Hiligaynon and Kin-iraya in Iloilo in 1907 which claims to be nothing more than that. It is based on written and oral sources then available, and contain three sorts of subject matter—folk customs still being practiced or remembered by old folks, the description of an idealized confederation whose existence there is reasonable grounds to doubt and for which there is no evidence, and a legend recorded in 1858 of a migration of Bornean settlers, some of whom are still remembered as folk heroes, pagan deities, or progenitors of part of the present population of Panay. There is not reason to doubt that this legend preserves the memory of some actual event, but it is not possible to date the event itself or to decide which of its details are historic fact and which are the embellishments of generations of oral transmission". (Scott 1984:103).

http://www.admu.edu.ph/offices/mirlab/panublion/islas.html

"First and foremost, the Maragtas, which is the source of the Panay hulabaloo, is a book of legends - nothing more and nothing less. It is not a historical fact, but rather part of folklore that seems to get spiced up with every telling.

Pedro Alcantara Monteclaro, who wrote Maragtas in 1907, did not translated the work from an ancient prehispanic manuscript but clearly said in the preface of the book that he himself was its author. And although he did refer to two old written documents, he said that he did not publish them due to their poor condition and he did not imply that they were transcribed in his book.

The publisher of Maragtas, Salvador Laguda, even noted that, "According to the author, this Maragtas should not be considered as containing facts all of which are accurate and true, because many of his data do not tally with what we hear from old men."

...

In Maragtas, Monteclaro also told the story of the creation of the Confederation of Madya-as in Panay under the rule of Datu Sumakwel and he gave the details of its constitution. In spite of the importance that should be placed on such an early constitution and his detailed description of it, Monteclaro gave no source for his information. Also, it appears that the Confederation of Madya-as is unique to Monteclaro's book. It has never been documented anywhere else nor is it among the legends of the unhispanized tribes of Panay.


...

William Henry Scott proved in his dissertation that Maragtas and the Confederation of Madya-as were not actual ancient documents from long ago but only legends that were collected and in some cases possibly concocted by Pedro Monteclaro and published in 1907 in his book entitled Maragtas. As for the Maragtas Code, Scott found that it was merely an invention of Guillermo Santiago-Cuino's mind which was probably based on Monteclaro's book and published in 1938.


...

While making an effort to correct the errors of the past, some historians mistook Maragtas to be one of the many hoaxes of Philippine history rather than a mere legend. When Sonia Zaide revised History of the Republic of the Philippines in 1987, she mistakenly described Maragtas as a fraudulent document:

The legends surrounding the settling of the Philippines by Malay migrants are notably celebrated in the ati-atihan festival and perpetrated by hoaxers in the fraudulent documents containing the Maragtas chronicle and the Code of Kalantiaw...Although previously accepted by some historians, including the present authors, it has become obvious that the Maragtas is only the imaginary creation of Pedro A. Monteclaro, a Visayan public official and poet, in Iloilo in 1907. He based it on folk customs and legends, largely transmitted by oral tradition."

And lastly this quote I really agree on: "It would be unfair to brand Pedro Monteclaro a hoaxer or his book a fraudulent document because he never claimed that Maragtas was anything more than a collection of legends. Any frauds involving his book are perpetrated by other later writers who misrepresented it as an authentic ancient document."

...and those dumbasses who assumed so. LOL.

from this blog: http://writingthirty.blogspot.com/2005/05/...nean-datus.html


You know when I was a kid I remember the term "ilustrado" that refer to my idols like Jaena and Rizal. They sought outside to find the truth so that they may bring back to their nation the gift of knowledge so that it may better it. But I didn't know what it means. When I got my education I'd still rather not be called an ilustrado, but perhaps we should in service of our nation be even better than the "enlightened ones".

Let us please not become the social cancers that they were referring to. There's proper education out there. Let the internet be the source of education not quackiness.

Backwardism. ha ha. Who says the Maragtas hoax as true, I said it was an allusion to the actual.
Wow, you're an illustrado. ha ha
Amen, let us enlighten other people especially those with utak talangka.
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 15 2009, 11:26 AM) *
Backwardism. ha ha. Who says the Maragtas hoax as true, I said it was an allusion to the actual.
Wow, you're an illustrado. ha ha

Actual what? There's little source for the 'actual' either. The so called myths were only really extrapolated as "historical facts" by discredited historians. lol.

Ilustrado in the real sense, not some quackidasickal (I like that!) social carcinogens. Lol. Left brain hahaha. Screw history, let's just 'gutfeel' it. LOL. Maybe we should use our Jedi powers and figure it out and write about allusions and then think it real history. I'm calling all Filipino Jedi's to unite like Voltron and become authoritarians (pun intended) of Wikipedia. Enlighten us, enlighten us! Prithee, enlighten us.

You and your jedi friends continue to describe the Philippine nation up to today, the modern times. Left brain! hahaha.

You'd figure great minds not only toiled for decades to enlighten our people, some of which gave the ultimate sacrifice to open their eyes, but I guess cancers don't really die. Shame oh shame. But we get cool Jedi 'gutfeel' powers from it though. LOL.



Dude I found this under the subtitle: "May the quack be with you!"

LOL.
trismegistos
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Aug 15 2009, 10:51 AM) *
Actual what? There's little source for the 'actual' either. The so called myths were only really extrapolated as "historical facts" by discredited historians. lol.

Ilustrado in the real sense, not some quackidasickal (I like that!) social carcinogens. Lol. Left brain hahaha. Screw history, let's just 'gutfeel' it. LOL. Maybe we should use our Jedi powers and figure it out and write about allusions and then think it real history. I'm calling all Filipino Jedi's to unite like Voltron and become authoritarians (pun intended) of Wikipedia. Enlighten us, enlighten us! Prithee, enlighten us.

You and your jedi friends continue to describe the Philippine nation up to today, the modern times. Left brain! hahaha.

You'd figure great minds not only toiled for decades to enlighten our people, some of which gave the ultimate sacrifice to open their eyes, but I guess cancers don't really die. Shame oh shame. But we get cool Jedi 'gutfeel' powers from it though. LOL.



Dude I found this under the subtitle: "May the quack be with you!"

LOL.

Hindi mo nga alam ang ibig sabihin ng utak talangka ha ha. Ika nga ni Rizal, ang hindi marunong magmahal sa sariling wika ay higit pa ang amoy sa malansang isda. Ngayon, ipaliwanag mo nga ang ibig sabihin ng utak talangka.
Maragtas ay hinango sa pangalang Balagtas na isang prinsipe ng Madyapahit na anak ni Emperador Angka Vijaya o Anka Widjaya sa napangasawang prinsesa o Dayang Sasaban ng Kaharian ng Sapa. The similarity ends there and the rest are pure imagination of the abovementioned writer.
Illustrados were masons learned in the occults and obviously mastered both left brain and right brain thinking. And obviously you can't claim yourself as illustrous and enlightened from what I gathered from all your posts but to give shame and put down especially those Filipinos not educated in the norms you are educated and as if only Filipinos educated abroad have the enlightenment and have the answers for every ills of the country and I haven't seen many posts from you giving some Filipino pride nor Filipino identity.
Sige nga. What I heard from you are empty talks and pure pleonasm.
Suzuka00
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 15 2009, 01:09 PM) *
Hindi mo nga alam ang ibig sabihin ng utak talangka ha ha. Ika nga ni Rizal, ang hindi marunong magmahal sa sariling wika ay higit pa ang amoy sa malansang isda. Ngayon, ipaliwanag mo nga ang ibig sabihin ng utak talangka.
Maragtas ay hinango sa pangalang Balagtas na isang prinsipe ng Madyapahit na anak ni Emperador Angka Vijaya o Anka Widjaya sa napangasawang prinsesa o Dayang Sasaban ng Kaharian ng Sapa. The similarity ends there and the rest are pure imagination of the abovementioned writer.
Illustrados were masons learned in the occults and obviously mastered both left brain and right brain thinking. And obviously you can't claim yourself as illustrous and enlightened from what I gathered from all your posts but to give shame and put down especially those Filipinos not educated in the norms you are educated and as if only Filipinos educated abroad have the enlightenment and have the answers for every ills of the country and I haven't seen many posts from you giving some Filipino pride nor Filipino identity.
Sige nga. What I heard from you are empty talks and pure pleonasm.

He does not know how messed up our archipelago is because of the foreigners that take advantage of it.

JohnComnenus
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 15 2009, 05:35 PM) *
tinamaan ka ba? Another white-washed fil-sham.
This forum doesn't have an integrity and dignity in the first place. It's just a showcase of one's culture, social standing or ethnicity clashed against another. Instead of its objective of showcasing camaraderie and brotherhood of all races and culture.


Haha, paano naman ako naging fil-am eh wala nga akong interes sa amerika. Ayaw ko lang ng mga mahilig gumawa ng mga istorya katulad nyo, parang di nyo matanggap na wala talagang kasaysayan ang Pilipinas. Puro na lang mga alamat na hindi na ipinipilit sa katotohanan.

Ako tanggap ko na yon. Binibigyan nyo pa tuloy ng impresyon ang mga banyaga na ang mga pilipino ay masyadong "uhaw" sa kasaysayan. Kaya tama na ang mga "bed time stories" nyo beerchug.gif

OK na sana ung thread, pero sumawsaw si weirdotrismegistos
Suzuka00
QUOTE (JohnComnenus @ Aug 15 2009, 09:51 PM) *
Haha, paano naman ako naging fil-am eh wala nga akong interes sa amerika. Ayaw ko lang ng mga mahilig gumawa ng mga istorya katulad nyo, parang di nyo matanggap na wala talagang kasaysayan ang Pilipinas. Puro na lang mga alamat na hindi na ipinipilit sa katotohanan.

Ako tanggap ko na yon. Binibigyan nyo pa tuloy ng impresyon ang mga banyaga na ang mga pilipino ay masyadong "uhaw" sa kasaysayan. Kaya tama na ang mga "bed time stories" nyo beerchug.gif

OK na sana ung thread, pero sumawsaw si weirdotrismegistos

I rely more on the records of brunei and the morros when I create articles on the history of our archipelago to be realistic,actually they kept many of our history records other than my six sense...
trismegistos
QUOTE (JohnComnenus @ Aug 15 2009, 09:51 PM) *
Haha, paano naman ako naging fil-am eh wala nga akong interes sa amerika. Ayaw ko lang ng mga mahilig gumawa ng mga istorya katulad nyo, parang di nyo matanggap na wala talagang kasaysayan ang Pilipinas. Puro na lang mga alamat na hindi na ipinipilit sa katotohanan.

Ako tanggap ko na yon. Binibigyan nyo pa tuloy ng impresyon ang mga banyaga na ang mga pilipino ay masyadong "uhaw" sa kasaysayan. Kaya tama na ang mga "bed time stories" nyo beerchug.gif

OK na sana ung thread, pero sumawsaw si weirdotrismegistos

Napaniwala ka na walang kasaysayan ang Pilipinas. Kawawang nilalang. Ano ka sumulpot sa kawalan?
Mabuti pa gayahin mo ang ating dakilang bayani na si Dr. Jose Rizal. Nasa kutob nya na nililinlang lamang tayo ng mga Espanyol, kaya nagpakadalubhasa sya sa kasaysayan. At sa kanyang pagsasaliksik ay natuklasan nya ang katotohanan na mali na sabihin na magpasalamat ang mga Indio na nagkaroon sila ng kabihasnan dahil sa mga mananakop.

@suzuka: I also rely on verifiable documents and historical archives on my research. I use my sixth sense to judge if it is indeed the truth as there are many deceptions and lies even in our history.

@all: Just read about the LAGUNA COPPERPLATE INSCRIPTION to know how sophisticated and advance our culture during that time.
Suzuka00
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 16 2009, 01:31 AM) *
Napaniwala ka na walang kasaysayan ang Pilipinas. Kawawang nilalang. Ano ka sumulpot sa kawalan?
Mabuti pa gayahin mo ang ating dakilang bayani na si Dr. Jose Rizal. Nasa kutob nya na nililinlang lamang tayo ng mga Espanyol, kaya nagpakadalubhasa sya sa kasaysayan. At sa kanyang pagsasaliksik ay natuklasan nya ang katotohanan na mali na sabihin na magpasalamat ang mga Indio na nagkaroon sila ng kabihasnan dahil sa mga mananakop.

@suzuka: I also rely on verifiable documents and historical archives on my research. I use my sixth sense to judge if it is indeed the truth as there are many deceptions and lies even in our history.

@all: Just read about the LAGUNA COPPERPLATE INSCRIPTION to know how sophisticated and advance our culture during that time.

Igorots who resisted the spanish occupation are our heroes too....
JohnComnenus
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 16 2009, 01:31 PM) *
Napaniwala ka na walang kasaysayan ang Pilipinas. Kawawang nilalang. Ano ka sumulpot sa kawalan?
Mabuti pa gayahin mo ang ating dakilang bayani na si Dr. Jose Rizal. Nasa kutob nya na nililinlang lamang tayo ng mga Espanyol, kaya nagpakadalubhasa sya sa kasaysayan. At sa kanyang pagsasaliksik ay natuklasan nya ang katotohanan na mali na sabihin na magpasalamat ang mga Indio na nagkaroon sila ng kabihasnan dahil sa mga mananakop.

@suzuka: I also rely on verifiable documents and historical archives on my research. I use my sixth sense to judge if it is indeed the truth as there are many deceptions and lies even in our history.

@all: Just read about the LAGUNA COPPERPLATE INSCRIPTION to know how sophisticated and advance our culture during that time.


Nasan ang mga archeological finds na magpapatunay ng mga kabaliwang sinasabi mo? Maniniwala ako sana na may mataas na antas ng sibilisasyon ang pinas kung meron tayong mga makalumang templo o kahit anong istraktura. Pero nasan, wala naman.

nabasa ko na ang LCI dati pa, puro tungkol sa utang.
trismegistos
QUOTE (JohnComnenus @ Aug 16 2009, 03:19 AM) *
Nasan ang mga archeological finds na magpapatunay ng mga kabaliwang sinasabi mo? Maniniwala ako sana na may mataas na antas ng sibilisasyon ang pinas kung meron tayong mga makalumang templo o kahit anong istraktura. Pero nasan, wala naman.

nabasa ko na ang LCI dati pa, puro tungkol sa utang.

I took pity on such people like you. Obviously whitewashed. You have the same mentality as alexandra.
Mas baliw ka di mo ba alam. There are not much stone monuments because being a tropical country, where wood abounds there was no reason to use stoneworks or masonry. But some speculated that the various Churches including the Intramuros, which were built from existing stone structures and were recycled to build these houses of worship and colonial houses for these conquistadores.
I remember during discourses with donya alex. Alex would point out that Philippines must be grateful to Spain for giving her civilization and that Philippines was a veritable no man's land at the center of the ocean isolated from it's neighbors and didn't engage in trading etc. Even taybenco or renascimento urged me to admit that so called fact that we have to thank Spain for putting it in the world's map.
That's the problem when a kiddie like johncomnenus would only rely on sanitized colonial-centered highschool textbooks as end all of our philippine history. Colonial centered because it depicts our ancient filipino forefathers as if our cavemen straight from the boondocks.
Never realizing the realities that Luzonian pilots and traders were even in East Timor gathering spices for export throughout maritime southeast asia when the Portuguese explorers came. That there was a surya diraja, a pepper trader from Lusung, who had a profitable trade and a honored place in the Sultanate of Malacca. That the Sultan of Malacca suggested to the Portuguese explorer to use Luzonian pilots and ships in their discovery of trade routes to China and Japan. That there was a Sultan of Brunei, who was a Bisayan with Chinese and arab blood, who invaded the Kingdom of Luzon twice and the last attempt was successful with the killing of the latter's ruler and marrying the latter's daughter to continue the lineage.
And since flipcombatmedic is fond of William Henry Scott, I remember from one of his books about prehispanic Philippines that there are various misconceptions depicting the Philippines as a tribal country isolated from various tribes and he corrected them mentioning the above accounts of Portuguese and Spanish sources. He mentioned that the Luzonian traders and shippers had a virtual monopoly of the Chinese wares that various Malays called the Lusung traders as being Chinese. He mentioned that the Pintados in Cebu had to rely on the Luzon traders for their Chinawares.

Nakakahiya man aminin karamihan sa mga Pinoy ay walang alam tungkol sa ating Filipino Identity at History. Di ko sila masisi dahil yung pagka brainwashed sa kanila nung silay nag-aaral pa.

Gaya nitong isang nagmamarunong na batang paslit na hindi nakita ang kahalagahan ng Laguna copperplate inscription.

May kasabihan na ang di marunong lumingon sa kanyang pinanggalingan ay di makakarating sa kanyang paroroonan. So, it's very imperative that we recovered our lost identity, in order to achieve the status of our birthright, na bilang isang Pilipino na may dugong Maharlika. Many Filipinos claim they are Filipinos because they say they were born and reared in the Philippines pero wala sa salita, sa isip at sa gawa ang kanilang pagiging Filipino. Kaya marami sa ating ang utak talangka at mga Fil-Sham.
renascimento
WH Scott also mentions Filipinos landing on the South Chinese Shores (well, it wasn't Chinese Empire back then yet) icon_wink.gif

I can only advise people to read Scotts Books, as well as "Vibora" and "Viajero" bei J. Sionil beerchug.gif
Suzuka00
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 16 2009, 05:08 AM) *
I took pity on such people like you. Obviously whitewashed. You have the same mentality as alexandra.
Mas baliw ka di mo ba alam. There are not much stone monuments because being a tropical country, where wood abounds there was no reason to use stoneworks or masonry. But some speculated that the various Churches including the Intramuros, which were built from existing stone structures and were recycled to build these houses of worship and colonial houses for these conquistadores.
I remember during discourses with donya alex. Alex would point out that Philippines must be grateful to Spain for giving her civilization and that Philippines was a veritable no man's land at the center of the ocean isolated from it's neighbors and didn't engage in trading etc. Even taybenco or renascimento urged me to admit that so called fact that we have to thank Spain for putting it in the world's map.
That's the problem when a kiddie like johncomnenus would only rely on sanitized colonial-centered highschool textbooks as end all of our philippine history. Colonial centered because it depicts our ancient filipino forefathers as if our cavemen straight from the boondocks.
Never realizing the realities that Luzonian pilots and traders were even in East Timor gathering spices for export throughout maritime southeast asia when the Portuguese explorers came. That there was a surya diraja, a pepper trader from Lusung, who had a profitable trade and a honored place in the Sultanate of Malacca. That the Sultan of Malacca suggested to the Portuguese explorer to use Luzonian pilots and ships in their discovery of trade routes to China and Japan. That there was a Sultan of Brunei, who was a Bisayan with Chinese and arab blood, who invaded the Kingdom of Luzon twice and the last attempt was successful with the killing of the latter's ruler and marrying the latter's daughter to continue the lineage.
And since flipcombatmedic is fond of William Henry Scott, I remember from one of his books about prehispanic Philippines that there are various misconceptions depicting the Philippines as a tribal country isolated from various tribes and he corrected them mentioning the above accounts of Portuguese and Spanish sources. He mentioned that the Luzonian traders and shippers had a virtual monopoly of the Chinese wares that various Malays called the Lusung traders as being Chinese. He mentioned that the Pintados in Cebu had to rely on the Luzon traders for their Chinawares.

Nakakahiya man aminin karamihan sa mga Pinoy ay walang alam tungkol sa ating Filipino Identity at History. Di ko sila masisi dahil yung pagka brainwashed sa kanila nung silay nag-aaral pa.

Gaya nitong isang nagmamarunong na batang paslit na hindi nakita ang kahalagahan ng Laguna copperplate inscription.

May kasabihan na ang di marunong lumingon sa kanyang pinanggalingan ay di makakarating sa kanyang paroroonan. So, it's very imperative that we recovered our lost identity, in order to achieve the status of our birthright, na bilang isang Pilipino na may dugong Maharlika. Many Filipinos claim they are Filipinos because they say they were born and reared in the Philippines pero wala sa salita, sa isip at sa gawa ang kanilang pagiging Filipino. Kaya marami sa ating ang utak talangka at mga Fil-Sham.

The Borneans installed the Soliman clan so that they can acquire manila,I think Visayans used to be a people in Luzon that were marginalised like Iluko and Kumintang,Visayans are closely related to Bicolanos,that is why they tend to hate the Kapampangans(and northern tagalogs) and Manilenyos....


Donya Alex is a dugong aso....

Ang kinaiinisan ko inaaway minsan ng mga Kapampangan sa Pampanga ang mga nakatira sa karatig probinsya(Rizal,Bulacan,Bataan,Nueva Ecija,Tarlac at Aurora) na dating nagsasalita ng kapampangan kesyo nagpalit daw ng salita at di na sila kapampangan,pero ang totoo lang wala silang ginagawa para maayos ang nasira nilang reputasyon at maging proud ang mga taga Rizal,Bulacan,Bataan,Nueva Ecija,Tarlac at Aurora sa kanilang pagiging Kapampangan.....

Nakita ko doon sa friendster na ang pinaka concentration ng kapampangan surnames bukod sa Pampanga surnames ay sa Nueva Ecija,Zambales,Tarlac,Bataan,Aurora,Bulacan at Rizal...
renascimento
LOL the internet really is good for something confused.gif

Book 1

Barangay
jonathanrhino
Nasa kagitnaan lang naman kase ang lahat ng bagay mga bok.

Hindi tutuo na meron tayong glorious past... na hari tayong mga pilipino ng Southeast Asia. Hindi rin naman tayo mga korokan at ungga-ungga...

Nasa mga pulo tayo, no one will expect to see an Angkor Wat o Borubudur in a typhoon-prone, small plains on an archipelago. Sabi nga, sa mga isla, pag di mo dinala e wala dito.

What I mean is, please be content with archeologic finds that are truly scientifically proven. Wag na yung kung anu anong mga speculations at doubtful hypothesis na nakakapahiya sa mga tunay na merong high civilization sa java, sumatra at kambojia . Kung talagang gustong gusto niyo ang tungkol sa archeology, come visit us here sa Pinas and dig your way in Butuan or kung saan man meron scientific proof that we have super advanced pre Hispanic civilization...

My point is if I do not believe in the glorious past of our country, does it mean I am whitewashed? No. It just means that I belive that even if I am not the son of an advanced civilisation, tao pa din ako...
trismegistos
QUOTE (jonathanrhino @ Aug 17 2009, 03:24 AM) *
What I mean is, please be content with archeologic finds that are truly scientifically proven. Wag na yung kung anu anong mga speculations at doubtful hypothesis na nakakapahiya sa mga tunay na merong high civilization sa java, sumatra at kambojia . Kung talagang gustong gusto niyo ang tungkol sa archeology, come visit us here sa Pinas and dig your way in Butuan or kung saan man meron scientific proof that we have super advanced pre Hispanic civilization...

History is subjective and is chronicled by a person either first-hand or from second-hand info. The person could be biased ofcourse and could be objective in his attempt to recreate the actual events.

You are correct scientific methods by way of archeology is the best way.

But to suppose for e.g. those chronicles that I have mentioned about the Lusung traders in Malacca and in Timor as chronicled by a Portuguese named Tome Pires as mere speculations or doubtful hypotheses would mean that every historical accounts both local and abroad not by way of paleontological and archeological methods to be discredited and that would mean close to 90 percent of all written histories as mere speculations and hypotheses if we will go by your logic.

Just like the books by William Henry Scott well commended by few forum members here are mere secondhand materials from firsthand accounts like Tome Pires for e.g. would mean if we go by your logic as only purely speculative.

Even archeology is not an exact science, one archeologist could have different interpretation from another though they may go about following the same protocols and methods. Even Physics, experiments done in subatomic particles is very relative and subjective as demonstrated by the Heissenberg uncertainty principle, where the observer has an effect on the outcome. Which proves action at a distance. To those who are into Metaphysics or Mysticism, will recognize the importance of such principle. This would explain the power of prayer or of telekinesis or other mind over matter phenomena.

We should go about reading Histories with the thought that History is written by the victors to suit the victors...

History could have a powerful effect in one nation for e.g would be the Jewish scripture, in the story of Moses, he kept on reminding the Hebrew people that they were a chosen people for 40 years he kept on reminding them as an affirmation or act of faith. It took thousand of years for that to take effect. Now the whole world is in their hands by the so called Jewish banker families like the Rothschild, Krupps etc. In our national anthem, we keep on mentioning that our land is the Promised Land or Lupang Hinirang would that take another thousand years to take effect(ha ha) or to go in fruition or would that take a shorter course. It depends on the faith of the people.

btw, the Austronesian royals were found to be too fond of intermarrying with each other from various clans for allegiance purpose or consolidation that one can say that various royal clans were one way of the other interrelated whether from Malacca, Tondo, Butuan, Cebu, Palembang, Aceh, Brunei, Sulu or Java with one clan predominating in one period replaced by another such as the thallosocracies of Srivijayas and Majapahit.
Suzuka00
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 17 2009, 07:44 AM) *
History is subjective and is chronicled by a person either first-hand or from second-hand info. The person could be biased ofcourse and could be objective in his attempt to recreate the actual events.

You are correct scientific methods by way of archeology is the best way.

But to suppose for e.g. those chronicles that I have mentioned about the Lusung traders in Malacca and in Timor as chronicled by a Portuguese named Tome Pires as mere speculations or doubtful hypotheses would mean that every historical accounts both local and abroad not by way of paleontological and archeological methods to be discredited and that would mean close to 90 percent of all written histories as mere speculations and hypotheses if we will go by your logic.

Just like the books by William Henry Scott well commended by few forum members here are mere secondhand materials from firsthand accounts like Tome Pires for e.g. would mean if we go by your logic as only purely speculative.

The Austronesian royals were fond of intermarrying with each other from various clans for allegiance purpose or consolidation that one can say that various royal clans were one way of the other interrelated whether from Malacca, Tondo, Butuan, Cebu, or Javan with one clan predominating in one period replaced by another such as the Srivijayas and Majapahit.

I remember Rajah Soliman asked the help of Pangasinense including Ibaloi during the battle of Bangkusai....

The Kapampangan Elite are still very influential....

I don't like what the kumintang,iluko and visayans did to the kapampangans they ostracized kapampangans instead of working with them to expell the spaniards and they used the fact that there are traitorous kapampangans like the traitorous Macapagal clan and the ones that worked for spain the shame it caused made majority of kapampangans in the spanish era to change their identity to northern tagalog.

The problem with the Kapampangan Elite is that they use their fabricated version of tagalog,the one that is used by northern tagalogs as their administrative language,they are not true to themselves....

What if Kapampangan was made our administrative language what will the Visayans,Iluko and Kumintang/Batanggenyo think?....

What should the kapampangan elite should do to make Visayans,Iluko and Kumintang trust them.....
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 15 2009, 01:09 PM) *
Hindi mo nga alam ang ibig sabihin ng utak talangka ha ha. Ika nga ni Rizal, ang hindi marunong magmahal sa sariling wika ay higit pa ang amoy sa malansang isda. Ngayon, ipaliwanag mo nga ang ibig sabihin ng utak talangka.
Maragtas ay hinango sa pangalang Balagtas na isang prinsipe ng Madyapahit na anak ni Emperador Angka Vijaya o Anka Widjaya sa napangasawang prinsesa o Dayang Sasaban ng Kaharian ng Sapa. The similarity ends there and the rest are pure imagination of the abovementioned writer.
Illustrados were masons learned in the occults and obviously mastered both left brain and right brain thinking. And obviously you can't claim yourself as illustrous and enlightened from what I gathered from all your posts but to give shame and put down especially those Filipinos not educated in the norms you are educated and as if only Filipinos educated abroad have the enlightenment and have the answers for every ills of the country and I haven't seen many posts from you giving some Filipino pride nor Filipino identity.
Sige nga. What I heard from you are empty talks and pure pleonasm.

Anong utak talangka? Kasi hindi ako nagTatagalog? Bakit ako magTatagalog sa isang forum na para sa lahat? At ang unang poste ay sa Ingles hindi Tagalog. Anong nakalimutan ko ang sariling wika? Kasi marunong akong mag-Ingles? LOL Kahit si Rizal marunong nang maraming wika. Ang tunay na taong MAS malansa sa isda ay yung mga taong gago at nagtuturo ng kagaguhan. Kahit si Rizal nag-aral buong buhay para ang mga henerasyon tapos niya hindi magiging MANGMANG. Pero yun nga, minsan ang sakripisyo niya parang wala, kasi sa mga taong gago at sira ang ulo at walang Ngayon balik tayo sa TUNAY na issue...

Balagtas of Majaphahit? HAHA I thought they were from Borneo? LOL. Neither way 'IT IS NOT HISTORY'. It's like if I created a fake story based on a Rizal-like and then everybody assuming it's real. And who is this "Balagtas"? How come there's little record of him anywhere? And much like you claim about Zabag and Sanfotsi you also claim much like this 'internet historian' who connect and claim historicism by simply connecting similar sounding names (eg Shambala and Sambals LOOOL). Balagtas and Maragtas? LOL. It make sense. Even this Balagtas who is another Filipino 'internet historical figures' claim, it seems Majapahit father into Pampanga who's mother is from Manila...yet Maragtas is from Borneo who came with 9 other datus which settled mostly in the Visayas LOL. You know you're a historian if you can rhyme historical figures! LOL. Biggie Smalls would have an internet bachelor's degree in Filipino history is no time. Next claim: Rizal fathered Kasim Faizal...LOL ( I mean come on Faizal--Rizal you know?)

No ilustrados (literally the 'enlightened')are general term for the learned "Indios" who sought out and sacrificed their time and lives so that future "Indios" like you and me aren't going to be the 'savages' they made us to be and prove to the white man that we are far more and intellectual than their racist ideologies. There are many different groups of ilustrado, but nonetheless that terminology sticks.

And because I don't fake history claims to make people's head big don't make me not proud to be Filipino. That's crass and shallow; I would rather stay quiet than lie to create 'pride'. LOL. I don't have to show people here flags and regalia to prove how much I am proud about my heritage. Simply taking my time chastising idiots on the internet who shame us Filipinos by making delirious claims is enough.

As for subjectivity: ONCE more as I have written before of course history and other things may not be hundred percent. Histiriography suggest otherwise. HOWEVER there is a standard and there is ethics among academicians (REAL ACADEMICIANS WITH DIPLOMAS NOT INTERNET CAPABILITIES ONLY) about how to acquire and what methods to use in writing claims and hypothesis.

BUT there is difference between claiming myths and legenda and using homophones as the standard in using claims. thus real scientists, historians might have inconsistencies in their hypothesis (EPR Paradox, Various claims on extinct animals vestigial organs ) ...but you won't see them claiming Candyland existing in 15th century ran by horse riding Mormons because Candyland sounds alot like Schlendyland. Haha like Prester John was from the Philippines hahahahahaha.

"Subjectivity" maybe existence (and it is the real academicians goal to minimize it), but making far fetch shenanigan--hell no!

trismegistos
@suzuka: I think what the previous Kapampangan turned Tagalog like the Katipunero Aurelio Tolentino or Francisco Balagtas or Manuel Quezon were right in promoting a bastardized Tagalog as the National Language and to call every Filipinos into the fold of what the Kapampangan turned Tagalog, Andres Bonifacio, supremo of Katipunan, as the "Katagalugan Nation". So, it's now the problem of the Bisayans if they remain not to speak these lingua franca or to continue to live in animosity with their brethren. Btw, I'm half-bisayan. That is not to say to kill other dialects in fact we should promote bilingualism or trilingualism just like what our ancient forefathers do. They had a trade language or lingua franca called Old Malay with some Sanskrit words and continue to speak their native tongues.
What you can do is to continue to dispell those errors in the colonial-centered high school history textbooks, those errors promoting a slave Philippines with no National Identity or Pride. You can write a book.

-----
First and foremost, pardon me for calling some of you as a white-washed Filsham with crab mentality or 'utak talangka'. It's unfair to judge a person as such. It's not right to engage in 'name games' and be trapped in the snare of 'demonizing tactics which btw I didn't started.
I acknowledge your efforts in dispelling 'ignorance' and for 'shedding light' on various historical hoaxes and to urge people to have a skeptical mind (I'm a natural skeptic too) and also to be critical of 'social carcinogens' and 'quacks' like me.
I am not here to convince everybody of my beliefs though unscientific it is to most of you. It is my beliefs(some are given logical or scientific proofs) and it vibrates through my whole being as if a kind of 'inner knowing'. So these are my 'truths' but could be outright lies and deceptions to somebody who doesn't resonate to such. (That's the law of sympathetic vibration and resonance we have there and it's very natural in fact it is a natural or universal law.) No one can claim they have the 'absolute truths' except Buddha or Christ of course.
I believe that the Philippines is the "New Jerusalem", once part of a mighty ancient civilization called Mu or Lemuria. Various so called 'mystical revelations' by enlightened beings resonate in my soul. I also believe that the Philippines was once part of Majapahit or Srivijayas. I believe in Prince Balagtas, a son of the King of Majapahit Angka/Anka Wijaya/Vijaya/Widjaya aka Soledan. These are my beliefs. Time will tell as more researches and discoveries will uncover these if these are true or false. I don't know the reason why there are only a few documents proving these and why an insane person like me including Nick Joaquin, Henson, et al believe this also. I have already put the references or links on my previous posts and threads. Call people like me idiots, weirdos or crazy, it's alright. I'm in good company as there are many respected individuals who wrote about these. Whether people who put forward these unscientific beliefs or theories or hypotheses are plain evil or sociopaths or social carcinogens, depends on what the Holy Scriptures says,"By the fruits you should know". So time will. As a wise poster here said, we should dig deeper than just acceping these 'theories' blindly. He suggested to go to Butuan. We can go also to Cavite and start exploring the Subterranean tunnels(Gov. Maliksi knows these). These are huge tunnels which even the Japanese during the war could not have built in such a short period. These tunnels are so deep, you will die from suffocation or breathlessness. Could that be "Lemuria" or some preHispanic ancient sophisticated civilization? Again, only time will tell. No matter what people say, I'll continue spreading these 'lies' or 'my truths' as I feel compelled to as those respected individuals or lunatics to some will continue spreading their virii. he he. And we can continue to disagree and you can continue to call me names, etc as you are feel compelled to dispell these 'hoaxes' or "noesis" of various masonic or inner circles. No problem at all. It's but natural that most seeds will be thrown to barren rocks and will die but to a fertile soil...you know the rest of the story. he he

"And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."

Namaste!
flipcombatmedic
Look I'm sorry for belittling you guys all the time. It's quiet rude of me to do so, I know it's you guys' hobbies to ...you know....uh make uh unsubstantial pseudo historical truths and conspiracy theoretical claims, but really guys just keep in mind that it hurts our credibility when we claim stuff that aren't 'solid facts' or with little unstantiated claims. i think it got me mad because i'm saddened to think that our nation still up to today riddled with untruths.

You know the reason why Rizal called his first novel "noli me tangere"--"touch me not"? It's an allusion to eye cancer which was highly 'hurtful' thus the name. Eye cancer prevents people from opening hurtful social and historical truths and a stigma of cycle of pain and blindness. We're here past the Age of Information, yet in our books we still have, due to our perhaps cultural liberality untrue things! Our heroes, those who died before us, those who labored before us, those young men who were called half caste Indians who went to the world filled with men who despise them because the color of their skin so that they may learn and bring to us (a pasalubong) gifts which they cannot take away from us: knowledge and truth. So that we can stand in front of the world not as what they call us: savages, but with dignity as learned men, their equals, that we have a rich culture before they came, not the culture we didn't have maybe no fancy dragons and voyages of kings and what not but real truths on how our people lived before.

Let us not waste their labors!
orient
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Aug 17 2009, 06:09 PM) *
Look I'm sorry for belittling you guys all the time. It's quiet rude of me to do so, I know it's you guys' hobbies to ...you know....uh make uh unsubstantial pseudo historical truths and conspiracy theoretical claims, but really guys just keep in mind that it hurts our credibility when we claim stuff that aren't 'solid facts' or with little unstantiated claims. i think it got me mad because i'm saddened to think that our nation still up to today riddled with untruths.

You know the reason why Rizal called his first novel "noli me tangere"--"touch me not"? It's an allusion to eye cancer which was highly 'hurtful' thus the name. Eye cancer prevents people from opening hurtful social and historical truths and a stigma of cycle of pain and blindness. We're here past the Age of Information, yet in our books we still have, due to our perhaps cultural liberality untrue things! Our heroes, those who died before us, those who labored before us, those young men who were called half caste Indians who went to the world filled with men who despise them because the color of their skin so that they may learn and bring to us (a pasalubong) gifts which they cannot take away from us: knowledge and truth. So that we can stand in front of the world not as what they call us: savages, but with dignity as learned men, their equals, that we have a rich culture before they came, not the culture we didn't have maybe no fancy dragons and voyages of kings and what not but real truths on how our people lived before.

Let us not waste their labors!


Well said beerchug.gif
Suzuka00
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Aug 17 2009, 07:46 PM) *
@suzuka: I think what the previous Kapampangan turned Tagalog like the Katipunero Aurelio Tolentino or Francisco Balagtas or Manuel Quezon were right in promoting a bastardized Tagalog as the National Language and to call every Filipinos into the fold of what the Kapampangan turned Tagalog, Andres Bonifacio, supremo of Katipunan, as the "Katagalugan Nation". So, it's now the problem of the Bisayans if they remain not to speak these lingua franca or to continue to live in animosity with their brethren. Btw, I'm half-bisayan. That is not to say to kill other dialects in fact we should promote bilingualism or trilingualism just like what our ancient forefathers do. They had a trade language or lingua franca called Old Malay with some Sanskrit words and continue to speak their native tongues.
What you can do is to continue to dispell those errors in the colonial-centered high school history textbooks, those errors promoting a slave Philippines with no National Identity or Pride. You can write a book.


It would be easy to do use a linguafranca,which is the majority language if the continuum between our languages was maintained..
Actually there used to be a contiuum between many languages/dialects in our country,It was quite severed but there are still traces of that like Ibanag and Isneg of Cagayan and Kapampangan the transitional language is Gaddang,Bikol has a continuum with Batanggenyo Tagalog of Batangas and the transitional ones are in Camarines-Norte,S.E Quezon and Marinduque,the same thing happens between Visayan and Bikol,they have Waray or Bisakol that bridges Visayan and Bicolano,the Negrito Languages have transitional features as well....
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