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tangawizi
QUOTE
Tameka J. Raymond
Fashion stylist, designer and mother

Posted: August 11, 2009 03:07 PM

I am a dark-skinned African American woman with features that reflect my ancestry. Debates regarding Light vs. Dark and other biases have plagued our race for years and continues to impact millions of Black women. The deeply rooted intra-racial contempt that lies beneath this inane "compliment" is the reason I've chosen to spark dialogue surrounding the topic of self-hatred in our culture. It saturates every aspect of our lives, dominating the perspectives of our generation as a whole. We culturally are so influential, at times inadvertently, that we affect all with the words we utter and the images we portray. It lends to the theory of systemic racism. I'm authoring this piece because I'm miffed by this reality and would like to share my views on these subjects.

It is a fact that many African-Americans are often mixed with an array of other ethnicities (as am I), which allows for the spectrum of our features to be as distinctive and special as we are diverse. Why is it felt that the more diluted our traditionally African features become the more aesthetically acceptable we are considered? It was said in the 1960s and the sentiment seems to be forgotten, "Black is Beautiful." Wow, nearly 50 years later and is that now only meant for a specific shade? Nonetheless, I believe the beauty of our people and splendor of every individual is reflected in our varying features and hues.

Often dark-skinned women are considered mean, domineering and standoffish and it was these very labels that followed Michelle Obama during the campaign for her husband's presidency and which she has had to work tirelessly to combat. I was appalled when I heard a Black woman refer to Michelle Obama as unattractive. The conversation turned into why President Obama picked her as his mate. No one in the witch-hunt made reference to the possibility that Michelle Obama was smart, funny, caring, a good person, highly accomplished or brilliant. Nor did they mention that she previously was President Obama's supervisor. If she were fair skinned, petite with long straight or wavy hair, would the same opinions be linked to her? I seriously doubt it. It is believed that for the dark skinned, dreams are less obtainable.

In fact, I have read similar comments about myself that I am "dark, aggressive, bossy and b!tchy." It has been stated that my husband should have been with a "younger, more beautiful" woman. Astoundingly, the majority of the remarks come from African-American women and are mimicked by others. Sadly enough, I don't know nor have I met 99% of those making these assertions. Funny, how we can judge another without having personally seen, interacted with or experienced a person's character.

As I began to delve into further research on this topic, and the more I read, I concluded that many of our people do not like what they see in the mirror. Seeing ones own reflection in another person and then to dissect it in an effort to destroy can only be the product of self-loathing. Why don't we congratulate as opposed to hate?

There is an adage "hurt people, hurt people". If this is true then we must examine the root of negative words and judgments that are passed on people. Unfortunately, we have internal stereotypes based off of skin color and facial features that stem from years of programming, dating back to the "Willie Lynch" method for creating a slave. In this infamous formula, one of the main factors in separating and creating division was placing the lighter skinned blacks in a higher position in the house, while those with darker skin were made to stay in the fields and deemed "less desirable". Much like the Caste System in India. No matter what strides we make as a people, these issues continue to plague and rot our souls, causing significant decay to a portion of our population and truly hindering our progress. Perhaps we show progress in our wallets and lifestyles but not in our mind set.

Reading magazines, social media sites, watching our music videos, and television shows feed our appetites for all things 'beauty". Rarely, however do I see depictions of grace and elegance in the form of dark complexioned women. I Googled one of the more ethnic models, Alek Wek and I was saddened by the tone of what the bloggers wrote in reference to her complexion, features and hair texture. Ms. Wek's escape from Sudan, her journey, philanthropy, and groundbreaking success as a supermodel in America is not only beautiful, but it displays her tenacity and character. African-Americans seemed to have lost their eye for character. These comments are evidence of the confusion that lies within many black people. It's the cruelty and prejudice that has spilled into the fabric of our everyday lives. It makes me wonder what have we collectively lost as a people? Our Minds.

I too have fallen prey, while on vacation in Brazil I decided to undergo tummy lipo-surgery. After having an allergic reaction to the anesthesia, I went into cardiac arrest before the procedure ever began. I nearly lost my life over something as superficial as having a flatter mid-section and trying to adapt to society's traditional definition of beauty. As I nursed my psychological wounds, I began to realize that trying to live up to the prototypes of external beauty paled in comparison to the fact that I have undergone labor, subsequently being blessed to raise five handsome, smart, healthy, intuitive, and happy children. I emerged from my ordeal realizing that my body is an amazing vessel that has given birth to life and that being healthy is what's important and nothing more.

It is my hope that our First Lady and others who share in this effort will continue to be the beacon to shine a light for those who toil on America's beauty totem pole. Now don't get me wrong or take my words out of context. I truly believe that everyone has a right to delineate what they deem is attractive, but we must not confuse perceived "attractiveness" with authentic "beauty." It is important for African Americans, especially, to realize that true beauty is a spiritual element that lies deep within an individual's spirit. It can neither be seen nor is it tangible. People tend to forget that beauty is not about looks and looks is not about beauty.

One of my favorite quotes comes from the great poet Khalil Gibran who once wrote, "Beauty is not the face; beauty is a light in the heart."


Wow... i thought this was really an indictment of african-american materialistic lifestyles that extrahour has been hammering on lately....

What do u think??? Is it true that african americans generally don't like being dark skinned if they can help it?
ClearBlueWater
I will say... it doesn't matter the shade of the skin if you're ugly.

I'm brown and I would love to be darker than I am.
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Aug 16 2009, 02:40 PM) *
Wow... i thought this was really an indictment of african-american materialistic lifestyles that extrahour has been hammering on lately....

What do u think??? Is it true that african americans generally don't like being dark skinned if they can help it?


What????
You can't be asking this question seriously????
That's like asking if Tangy likes to be a girl???
You're asking if someone dislikes having characteristics that make them who they are ...
Do you not like your boobs??? embarassedlaugh.gif
UncleSouTh
QUOTE (avisitor @ Aug 16 2009, 09:21 PM) *
What????
You can't be asking this question seriously????
That's like asking if Tangy likes to be a girl???
You're asking if someone dislikes having characteristics that make them who they are ...
Do you not like your boobs??? embarassedlaugh.gif


^ lol true
tangawizi
QUOTE (avisitor @ Aug 17 2009, 04:21 AM) *
What????
You can't be asking this question seriously????
That's like asking if Tangy likes to be a girl???
You're asking if someone dislikes having characteristics that make them who they are ...
Do you not like your boobs??? embarassedlaugh.gif


You missed the point again, u are getting old.

The article highlights a condition that afflicts certain african-american who have developed a loathing of who they are, despite of themselves. It's a little like you loathing the FOB in yourself, and picking on other FOBs around u just to distinguish yourself from them, don't u get it???

Funny how CBW could make a stance for herself, and yet, u stoop to attack mode yet again..icon_rolleyes.gif
flipcombatmedic
Bull$hit, most white people today tan themselves disgustingly much.
ClearBlueWater
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Aug 17 2009, 02:47 PM) *
Bull$hit, most white people today tan themselves disgustingly much.

Most white people don't want to look mixed. They want to look tan.

In the days of old if you were rich you stayed indoors and were nice and palid. Pale was a sign of money. Now if you're rich you're out jet setting at the beach in Miami. Now being tan is a sign of wealth. Not being a darker complextion. Being tan. There's a difference. Which is why they're all perfectly happy with that nasty orange color they turn.
flipcombatmedic
^honey it's okay i saw your pics and i still think you're pretty for a dark girl. Jk. cbw you're pretty it's okay what racist people think. i actually like being dark despite the stereotype. but then again i'm no girl so i probably don't sahre the same insecurities you all do.
martin_nuke
There are many pretty dark skinned girls and most of them are even prettier than light skinned girls.
mikekk86
Girls with curly hair want straight hair....girls with straight hair want curly hair....lol. White girls want tans.....dark girls want to be lighter. It's all generalizations too though. I will say that the media in America puts a social pressure on it's own standard of beauty and many minorities are trying to fit into it. I'm actually going to do a painting about this very idea. I will definitely post it here when I finish. It will focus on Asian American females.
avisitor
QUOTE (UncleSouTh @ Aug 17 2009, 09:33 AM) *
^ lol true

Thank you

QUOTE (tangawizi @ Aug 17 2009, 02:05 PM) *
You missed the point again, u are getting old.

The article highlights a condition that afflicts certain african-american who have developed a loathing of who they are, despite of themselves. It's a little like you loathing the FOB in yourself, and picking on other FOBs around u just to distinguish yourself from them, don't u get it???

Funny how CBW could make a stance for herself, and yet, u stoop to attack mode yet again.. icon_rolleyes.gif


H mm, you asked for my opinion and then you don't like it.
I guess that you missed the point.
You got an answer .. you got the opinion that you asked for ... but you didn't like it bawling.gif

And, I'm not in attack mode again ... just prowling for weak and innocent ones ...
of which you are neither weak nor innocent.

The example you gave is of someone who is self loathing
And, we know that such conditions do exist but are not the norm
Would you like to get some therapy???? embarassedlaugh.gif
mikekk86
QUOTE (avisitor @ Aug 16 2009, 08:21 PM) *
You're asking if someone dislikes having characteristics that make them who they are ...
Do you not like your boobs??? embarassedlaugh.gif

Well, to work off your example of boobs, many women may have boobs that society deems 'too small.' Many have gotten plastic surgery, taken some kind of pills to enlarge their breasts or wear bras to make them look bigger. So is it someone disliking who they are? Well, it's a gray area. They like who they are...it just so happens that's not what 'society' likes. And so some people try to be more of what 'society' wants them to be. Is it self hate? I wouldn't necessarily say so. It's definitely insecurity though. Doing what 'society' wants you to do is also the easier way to do things. It's easier to just conform than educate people of diversity. It's easier to follow the trend than start your own.

So to me, it seems like it comes down to taking the easier road. To some, it's too hard to make people understand past other people's prejudices--- so they conform to their prejudice, instead of letting them accept who they are naturally. And so both may be happy by an illusion they both accept.
tangawizi
^ nice bit of elaboration there mikekk86

good to see u see the issues clearer than that old fuggy avisitor!

i hv met many african americans who come to africa and suffer identity issues .. they don't like what they see here and how they are treated by africans...

when push comes to shove, they will tell u in the face that "I am an American!", as if the label of being american sets them apart from the masses of african here immediately... a bit like the asian americans going on about others being FOBs just to demarcate themselves from the masses of ABCs.

in fact, many africans are more proud and sure of themselves than african americans... i didn't make this up. my african mates tell me that all the time... shrug.gif



tangawizi
QUOTE (ClearBlueWater @ Aug 17 2009, 10:42 PM) *
Most white people don't want to look mixed. They want to look tan.

In the days of old if you were rich you stayed indoors and were nice and palid. Pale was a sign of money. Now if you're rich you're out jet setting at the beach in Miami. Now being tan is a sign of wealth. Not being a darker complextion. Being tan. There's a difference. Which is why they're all perfectly happy with that nasty orange color they turn.


+1

What did u think of the writer's opinions???
UncleSouTh
just to answer your question it depends. Some Indos want to be lighter, some white Americans want to be darker, and a lot of black African Americans here are fine with their skin color cause they represent where they come from and proud of it. but there is little racism here. only amongst the asians haha.
ClearBlueWater
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Aug 18 2009, 05:51 AM) *
+1

What did u think of the writer's opinions???

Honestly... I think white people suffer from the same problem. It's less to do with skin tone as it is with wanting to be set apart from the bunch; wanting an identity outside of larger group.

Black Americans love to go on about how they're mixed with native American. "I'm part Cherokee!" No $hit, so's half the US, but if you don't have tribal affiliation I don't care and it doesn't count (to me or the Chreokee Nation.)

I cannot begin to express how stupid it sounds to hear a white American go on and on about "I'm half English, 1/8 Irish, part Welsh, blah blah blah...."

For some reason being American isn't enough. For some reason everyone wants some kind of ehtnic identity outside of white and black that makes them more "exotic" or special.

I've never met a real African-American that had a problem with being dark. I've never met a white-washed black American that had a problem with being dark.

That and what the writer is completely ignoring is if you're ugly, you're ugly, it doesn't matter what skin tone you have. Light or dark, if your hair is nappy, your skin is bad and your facial features don't suit the size of your face, you will still be marked unattractive by any measure. The writer says she's upset about the comments she read about African models but there are tons of African [high fashion] models and very few black [American.]

Whenever I see black women praised for their beauty, it's the ones that have maintained a natural and feminine look. People genuinely dig the "bohemian" look. No relaxers, no extensions. No contacts, no acryllic nails. A black woman with a natural afro tied up by a cute head band in a long skirt and a strappy top with a large wooden bangle on one wrist looks great. People like it. It also makes them look more earthy and approachable.

People LOVE my curly hair much more than I do. Black, white, Asian, Latino all much prefer my curly hair over my straight. I will say it: a lot of black american women spend their time trying to mimic the "white" standard of beauty and either just can't achieve it or they half @$$ it rather than take the road less travelled and embrace the features they already have and work with those. It's a LOT more work to maintain curly hair than it is straight. It's a LOT harder to find good make-up for darker skins than it is light.

This stigma isn't coming from "black ISN'T beautiful." It's coming from "I want to look like that woman on TV with the professional stylist but I can't afford it so I'm going to half @$$ it by going to Shaquanda down the street, get a set of bad tracks, not maintain them and then wonder why no one thinks I'm attractive. Oh, it must be because I'm black/ dark."

I had a Chinese class with a dark black American I few years ago. OMG, the Chinese and white guys in that class LOVED her. She wasn't even particularly pretty. Her facial features were normal enough. She dressed very mildly. Jeans and tank top. She didn't dress to the nines and try to call attention to herself. She took good care of her [dark] skin and it looked fantastic. She had great legs and her dark complexion accented them rather than subtract.

It's all about how you carry yourself and how you maintain your body. There are certain guys that are going to go for the fake nails, bad tracks, flashy clothes and loud mouth just like there are some guys that are totally hot for Pam Am's boobs. For everyone else, they just need tone it down, work a little harder and maintain.
sks88
i always assumed that white girls believe, the more pale that you appear, the less attractive its is therefore they tan. . I agree with dude, the media/hollywood has a big influence on why white girls tan etc, so they can look like the people that they see on tv, movies and magazines. its all about fitting in and obtaining that certain sex appeal that the media projects with the "tan look", even though pale, light, dark can be sexy nomatter what skin tone.

But i have yet seen black women going into a tanning salong, its just something that most dont do i guess...
tangawizi
QUOTE (ClearBlueWater @ Aug 18 2009, 03:26 PM) *
Honestly... I think white people suffer from the same problem. It's less to do with skin tone as it is with wanting to be set apart from the bunch; wanting an identity outside of larger group.

Black Americans love to go on about how they're mixed with native American. "I'm part Cherokee!" No $hit, so's half the US, but if you don't have tribal affiliation I don't care and it doesn't count (to me or the Chreokee Nation.)

I cannot begin to express how stupid it sounds to hear a white American go on and on about "I'm half English, 1/8 Irish, part Welsh, blah blah blah...."

For some reason being American isn't enough. For some reason everyone wants some kind of ehtnic identity outside of white and black that makes them more "exotic" or special.

I've never met a real African-American that had a problem with being dark. I've never met a white-washed black American that had a problem with being dark.

That and what the writer is completely ignoring is if you're ugly, you're ugly, it doesn't matter what skin tone you have. Light or dark, if your hair is nappy, your skin is bad and your facial features don't suit the size of your face, you will still be marked unattractive by any measure. The writer says she's upset about the comments she read about African models but there are tons of African [high fashion] models and very few black [American.]

Whenever I see black women praised for their beauty, it's the ones that have maintained a natural and feminine look. People genuinely dig the "bohemian" look. No relaxers, no extensions. No contacts, no acryllic nails. A black woman with a natural afro tied up by a cute head band in a long skirt and a strappy top with a large wooden bangle on one wrist looks great. People like it. It also makes them look more earthy and approachable.

People LOVE my curly hair much more than I do. Black, white, Asian, Latino all much prefer my curly hair over my straight. I will say it: a lot of black american women spend their time trying to mimic the "white" standard of beauty and either just can't achieve it or they half @$ it rather than take the road less travelled and embrace the features they already have and work with those. It's a LOT more work to maintain curly hair than it is straight. It's a LOT harder to find good make-up for darker skins than it is light.

This stigma isn't coming from "black ISN'T beautiful." It's coming from "I want to look like that woman on TV with the professional stylist but I can't afford it so I'm going to half @$ it by going to Shaquanda down the street, get a set of bad tracks, not maintain them and then wonder why no one thinks I'm attractive. Oh, it must be because I'm black/ dark."

I had a Chinese class with a dark black American I few years ago. OMG, the Chinese and white guys in that class LOVED her. She wasn't even particularly pretty. Her facial features were normal enough. She dressed very mildly. Jeans and tank top. She didn't dress to the nines and try to call attention to herself. She took good care of her [dark] skin and it looked fantastic. She had great legs and her dark complexion accented them rather than subtract.

It's all about how you carry yourself and how you maintain your body. There are certain guys that are going to go for the fake nails, bad tracks, flashy clothes and loud mouth just like there are some guys that are totally hot for Pam Am's boobs. For everyone else, they just need tone it down, work a little harder and maintain.


it seems like it's the working class african americans who are doing the half-assed job of maintaining themselves, their body and their mindsets in a dignified way... but looking at the successful african americans like say... Will Smith and his wife Jada Pinkett, or Mr and Mrs Obama, they seem to be really classy in a uniquely african american way. Not white, not native american, just uniquely their african american way, am I right??

Which is the standard for the african american to follow?

I think the Obamas are setting a really pivotal role for african american families right now.... do u not see it?

The pictures of them holidaying in the Grand Canyon with the kids... the playhouse in the White House for the kids... the dog Bo for the kids... like did President Bush ever do anything remotely family-like in public with his two alcoholic daughters???

Btw, I did meet an african american studying here who tells me she's part Cherokee, part Irish, part I dunno what.... and her name was of Iranian origin!!!!! She had an afro most of the time she was here, quite different from the rest of the Kenyan girls who are into braids and hair extensions.

U said that for some reason, being American is not enough for some black americans. I think that can't be true because many african americans, and ABCs as well as Desis are always emphatic in saying they are Americans, period. And do not like to talk about their ethnic background. I have several friends who are ABCs working in Singapore, and they are living and working amongst chinese Singaporeans, and whilst they dig the chinese influences around their new surroundings, they are always keen to remind their chinese colleagues that they are Americans, not Chinese.

So it is true as well for African americans working here in Kenya amongst Africans. They are quick to say they are American.

And I think for the average chinese Singaporean, they look at the ABC the same way as the average african looks at the african american -- brother, we are all the same, why are u going on and on abt you being an American and setting yourself apart from us?

I think it's all down to a complex -- a kinda superiority complex -- when one says "I am an American".

Agree??
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Aug 18 2009, 05:46 AM) *
^ nice bit of elaboration there mikekk86

good to see u see the issues clearer than that old fuggy avisitor!

Good to see that you keep me in mind when you say something ...

Good ole mikekk86, my example was about you liking your boobs or not...
as in "yes, keep them" or "no, cut them off"
Mikey just saved your boobs .. with his excuse of media and peer pressure


QUOTE
i hv met many african americans who come to africa and suffer identity issues .. they don't like what they see here and how they are treated by africans...

when push comes to shove, they will tell u in the face that "I am an American!", as if the label of being american sets them apart from the masses of african here immediately... a bit like the asian americans going on about others being FOBs just to demarcate themselves from the masses of ABCs.

in fact, many africans are more proud and sure of themselves than african americans... i didn't make this up. my african mates tell me that all the time... shrug.gif

And you really don't see why???
A black man growing up in the ghettos of America will have more education ...
He will see a rift between what he believes himself to be and what a native african is
This comes from social norms and from urban settings versus very rural settings of africa.


QUOTE
it seems like it's the working class african americans who are doing the half-assed job of maintaining themselves, their body and their mindsets in a dignified way... but looking at the successful african americans like say... Will Smith and his wife Jada Pinkett, or Mr and Mrs Obama, they seem to be really classy in a uniquely african american way. Not white, not native american, just uniquely their african american way, am I right??

I would really like to see you say that to a black middle class african american.
What the hell do you mean half-assed job of maintaining themselves???
You can do better? Middle class is not successful???
OMG, is there no end to your arrogance????? eek.gif


QUOTE
So it is true as well for African americans working here in Kenya amongst Africans. They are quick to say they are American.

And I think for the average chinese Singaporean, they look at the ABC the same way as the average african looks at the african american -- brother, we are all the same, why are u going on and on abt you being an American and setting yourself apart from us?

I think it's all down to a complex -- a kinda superiority complex -- when one says "I am an American".

Agree??


Are you really so thick?
Why must Obama be born in america in order to be president?
Answer that question and you will have your answer. eek.gif

No, no, no ... it isn't about superiority complex ... I'm proud to be an American.
Just like you can be proud to be what ever the hell you are.
Doesn't mean you are better or I am better.
Why does your mind work in only black and white?
ClearBlueWater
QUOTE (avisitor @ Aug 19 2009, 10:14 PM) *
I would really like to see you say that to a black middle class african american.
What the hell do you mean half-assed job of maintaining themselves???
You can do better? Middle class is not successful???
OMG, is there no end to your arrogance????? eek.gif

tangawizi got that line from me and I stand by it.

tangawizi
thx for clarifying that CBW... i think fuggy avisitor is still confused over the gist of the thread... what can i do? shrug.gif
avisitor
QUOTE (ClearBlueWater @ Aug 20 2009, 09:34 AM) *
tangawizi got that line from me and I stand by it.

"it seems like it's the working class african americans who are doing the half-assed job of maintaining themselves, their body and their mindsets in a dignified way..."

You really don't see anything offensive about that statement?
Well, lets just substitute "CBW" for "african americans"

it seems like it's the working class african americans ClearBlueWater who is doing a half-assed job of maintaining herself, her body and her mindset in a dignified way...

Do you see that statement has no justifications, no reasons or explainations?
It just comes out derogatory.

QUOTE (tangawizi @ Aug 20 2009, 11:21 AM) *
thx for clarifying that CBW... i think fuggy avisitor is still confused over the gist of the thread... what can i do? shrug.gif

Ole wanna be reporter/ journalist ...
are you saying that you're quoting a source?
Com'mon you can do better.
ClearBlueWater
QUOTE (avisitor @ Aug 20 2009, 10:21 PM) *
You really don't see anything offensive about that statement?
Well, lets just substitute "CBW" for "african americans"

it seems like it's the working class african americans ClearBlueWater who is doing a half-assed job of maintaining herself, her body and her mindset in a dignified way...

Do you see that statement has no justifications, no reasons or explainations?
It just comes out derogatory.


Ole wanna be reporter/ journalist ...
are you saying that you're quoting a source?
Com'mon you can do better.

That's like saying it's offensive to call a fat person fat.

I typed out a whole post defining it yesterday and decided not to post it. The simplest way I can think to explain it is for you to google PG County.
avisitor
QUOTE (ClearBlueWater @ Aug 21 2009, 07:00 AM) *
That's like saying it's offensive to call a fat person fat.

I typed out a whole post defining it yesterday and decided not to post it. The simplest way I can think to explain it is for you to google PG County.



A "fat person is fat". Statement of Fact.
"...working class african americans are doing a half assed job of maintaining themselves ..."
All emcompassing generalization.
Do you see my point yet????
ClearBlueWater
QUOTE (avisitor @ Aug 21 2009, 09:08 AM) *
A "fat person is fat". Statement of Fact.
"...working class african americans are doing a half assed job of maintaining themselves ..."
All emcompassing generalization.
Do you see my point yet????

Well of course she didn't mean ALL working class blacks. Really, what is the point of doing that? You already know she nor I meant all of them. She was distinguishing between the working class and the upper class. Upper class obviously has more time, money, resources and incentive to maintain their physical appearances so they're no where near as likely to fall prey to sloth on the matter.

Then you've got "Shatinafer" over here who can't afford a $200 relaxer, $50 set and $100 style so she'll go buy the $20 box kit. She won't have the money to pay to get it flat ironed every time she washes it, so she won't. She'll just let it get kinky, ratty and dry. Then when her hair breaks off she'll buy a $40 wig or tracks.

Shatinafer doesn't want to take the time (or doesn't have the time) to giver herself a home mani/ pedi every other night so she'll go to her girlfriend Laquisha or Mrs. Tran and get a crap acrylic full set for $20.

Obesity is already a problem in Shatinafer's family but rather than shop at Whole Foods and prepare a low cal, low fat, high fiber/ iron meal for her and hers, she'll resort to the comfort foods of her childhood like baked macaroni and cheese, corn bread and heavily sauced ribs.

Shatinafer is a "strong, independent black woman who don't take nothing from no one." Confrontation ensues.

Obviously, this description does not apply to every single working class black American woman. I will say that it applies to a VERY large percentage of the demographic. A sadly large percentage. Such as it is, when a woman with natural hair, natural nails, clear skin, mild clothing and mild manners enters the room all you hear when she leaves it is "House nigga, white-washed, she think she betta' than ery' one jus' 'cause she got good hair. She think jus' 'cause she light skin-did she cute." Etc etc. You don't USUALLY hear these remarks as you move up in class because those women can afford to have good hair, good nails, healthy eating habits and tasteful clothing. The overall attitude changes.

I spent a significant portion of my childhood in PG County. It's the richest black county in the US. I won't even take the metro through it anymore. No one really blames me.

You can call it all a generalization. You can call it all a stereotype and tell yourself that I'm pulling this crap out my bunghole. I'm going to call it a very broad observation. Most of the women like the one I described above are good, honest and loving like anyone else. It's just that through, I don't, cultural differences?, their priorities are different. There's a class of white American woman like this too and we call them white trash. Hell, white people call them white trash.

It's a lot of work for an ethnic woman (and by ethnic I mean black, Latino or mixed) to maintain her physical appearance because the majority of goods and services on the market that are affordable are not marketed or manufactured for us.

Eg, naturally curly hair: it's a b!tch. It's expensive and it's time consuming. So your choices are A) shell out a ridiculous amount of time and money in a salon chair every other week B) spend an ungodly amount of time on it yourself or C) half-@$$ it. I'm not even completely black American so I can only imagine the pain in the @$$ it must be to maintain the hair. I have trouble enough with my own. Curly hair is naturally dry so moisturizing costs out the @$$. When I used to wear it out curly all the time I was spending at least $100 a month on shampoo, conditioners and moisturizers. I have to wash it everyday because if you sleep on the curls once they tangle and if you brush it out, it poofs.

Keeping it straight is also a pain the @$$. I have to spend at least 1 hour drying, 2 hours straightening and 30 minutes styling my hair every time I wash it and my hair is barely past my shoulders now.

The hair then causes the problem of acne (because of the moisturizers and natural oils) which requires more complex solutions.

It's not a wonder that the women half-@$$ it. I know very few willing women that would spend half the time I do on hair alone. Most would rather cut it all off and buy a wig, weave, extensions, braids, etc.

It's just lucky for me that the hipster look is fashion here and now and my hair can look like a hot mess and I can call it fashion. embarassedlaugh.gif

extra hour
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Aug 16 2009, 01:40 PM) *
Wow... i thought this was really an indictment of african-american materialistic lifestyles that extrahour has been hammering on lately....

What do u think??? Is it true that african americans generally don't like being dark skinned if they can help it?


I would say the issue of "beauty" or "sexiness" has more layers involved then that essay elucidates on.

But the author of the essay is on point. Lighter hues are given a greater appreciation in the Black-American community. At least that is the case for women, to a lesser extent for men.

Physical attractiveness is a good thing in my opinion. I can't recall any young Black-American woman granting me any attention when I had severe acne covering my face. Exploring their sexuality and sexual liberation with scores of different men, those they found physically, financially, or attractive in social status, captured more of their time. Less attractive women tend to complain - as beta females - about men not judging them by their "interior beauty." That is not something those same women will judge men by. Then his physical attractiveness and financial portfolio become all important.

So, it is true lighter skin is more appreciated in Black-America, but it is not the only variable nor the final straw so to speak. A midnight black woman with a flawless tone of skin that has excellent sheen, coupled with other "attractive" physical features, will be courted by black men in droves.

The author talks about undergoing surgery to make her stomach flatter. This I find a bit of humor in. Not her near death of course. But as someone that has used steroids for a very short time, but more importantly relied on intense physical workouts to shape his body (as untold numbers of young men do), I find it tiring to read or hear women complaining about unfair effort in achieving "attractiveness" they must undergo by slipping on a pair of jeans, or putting on a little make up (which most rarely wear), or doing 10 reps of sit ups in 48 hour period of time. The "easy way out" of undergoing surgery to refine a belly and figure - chosen by some men as well - is a tiring complaint to me also. Let these women try involving themselves in the effort it takes to pack on 30 pounds of muscle while maintain low or reasonable body fat.

Some things a man or woman can't change. A man can't change his height (growth hormones may, but with dramatic, negative side effects) and a woman can't change her @$$. Yeah, @$$ implants exist, but I'm talking naturally.

And when it comes to the effort involved in body transformation.... none of us come close to the struggles and sacrifice of Brazilian trannies and Thailand ladyboys. We have it easier.

Life can be very hard, and very cruel. Unfortunately many of us are not given the tools and support to overcomes the travails of life. The Black-American community has a long history of family dysfunction and broken spirits. This adds to the great struggle the individual Black-American faces when confronting the onslaught of social ills, stigmas, and subjective bullsh*t. So, to that degree I hope the authors essay can help heal the colorist problems plaguing Black-America. Look at any rap or R&B video and you'll likely not find a woman as dark as midnight hired to act or dance in the video.


extra hour
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Aug 19 2009, 02:10 PM) *
it seems like it's the working class african americans who are doing the half-assed job of maintaining themselves, their body and their mindsets in a dignified way... but looking at the successful african americans like say... Will Smith and his wife Jada Pinkett, or Mr and Mrs Obama, they seem to be really classy in a uniquely african american way. Not white, not native american, just uniquely their african american way, am I right??


Will Smith is awesome. One talented dude. He comes from the hood though. He's new wealth and so is his wife I believe. In their case and in the Obama's case, you are correct, they are in a different social class.

Americas as a whole has an obesity problem. The problem is greater in certain regions of the U.S. than in others. In areas with longer summers and lots of sun, such as Miami and California, you will see more men and women placing more time and energy into their physiques.

From studies conducted, White-American girls have a much lower view of themselves then Black-American girls. That's based on averages and not a statement of individuals. In general, though few people want to acknowledge it, a Black-American female teenager and young woman, will have little trouble in obtaining the compliments, time, affection, and courting of several young men. To her belongs the power of choice.

You will never know how many (numerically) black and very, dark, black girls and women I courted over my life. And I mean from obese to ravaged with skin disease. It was, 9 times out of 10, their choice to turn me down, or mock me behind my back. They had any number of boys or men to take them out. Black-American males - short of being "ballas" - are some of the least picky males on earth.

Black-American female choice begin to somewhat dry up as they approach 30. They will express outrage, intolerance, and lack of empathy at those Black-American males previously shunned by their (black females) thousands or millions, when they "move on" and set their eyes and goals on other women - such as Latinas. If these men grow in physical attractiveness, education, or one day financial and related power, they become all the more enraged at their (black male) incredulity.
FrenchVanillaNYC
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Aug 16 2009, 02:40 PM) *
What do u think??? Is it true that african americans generally don't like being dark skinned if they can help it?

It's not so much that, but more making a big deal out of less common shades. What African-Americans consider to be dark-skinned is people who are a dark chocolate complexion. The majority of African-Americans are actually not that shade, but vary between other complexions of brown. Because of it being less common for other black Americans, people (particularly women) who are dark-skinned get flack for being different. On the other end of the spectrum, people who are very light skinned also get flack for being different. The complexions of people who are other shades of brown don't get spoken about that much because it's considered common.

The dark/light thing does have negative roots in the US related to the mentality of "whiter is better" and whatnot from the days of old. These days, though, I think people (black American people) who talk about people being dark say it because of the visible differences, not because they have a problem with being dark themselves.
ClearBlueWater
That doesn't really explain only women are given such a hard time about being dark. Darker men aren't looked down on at all really...
avisitor
QUOTE (ClearBlueWater @ Aug 21 2009, 11:34 AM) *
Well of course she didn't mean ALL working class blacks. Really, what is the point of doing that? You already know she nor I meant all of them. She was distinguishing between the working class and the upper class. Upper class obviously has more time, money, resources and incentive to maintain their physical appearances so they're no where near as likely to fall prey to sloth on the matter.

......


It's just lucky for me that the hipster look is fashion here and now and my hair can look like a hot mess and I can call it fashion. embarassedlaugh.gif


Well, it seems quite obvious to me that you know what my meaning is
Also, that you are still trying to defend your broad, all encompassing stereotype observation
with that long and drawn out explaination.
I will say that you hold some valid reasoning but poorly expressed it.
Thanks you so much ... embarassedlaugh.gif
FrenchVanillaNYC
QUOTE (ClearBlueWater @ Aug 21 2009, 03:45 PM) *
That doesn't really explain only women are given such a hard time about being dark. Darker men aren't looked down on at all really...

Probably because men traditionally make the choice in a mate and their views have historically carried more weight. Society's ranking of lighter women as being a prize probably seeped in.
extra hour
QUOTE (ClearBlueWater @ Aug 21 2009, 02:45 PM) *
That doesn't really explain only women are given such a hard time about being dark. Darker men aren't looked down on at all really...


True and not true.

Black males received negative comments for being the complexion of Wesley Snipes for eons in the U.S. (As French alluded to, the complexion of a Denzel Washington is less prone to hostility or ridicule then being "too light" or "too black"). It's only recently - from the 1990's onward - that dark black males have burst through in popularity and prestige.

This prestige of the blacker the male the better, comes from Black-American, White-American, and Mulatto-American women and not from men.

My experience from the 1990's onward (the trajectory has fallen downward with the rise of popularity in Obama) was typical of many Mulatto-American men. The "I don't date light skin guys" was a common statement from Black-American women. Or the White-American women that told my brother, "We don't like mixed race guys, we want a real black man," was a common sentiment.

As I've stated, the rise of star power in Obama as the nations highest Alpha male (Alpha females exist too), has dramatically changed the trajectory of thought among many American women.






If person A is a "light skin" male, and person B is a "dark skin" black male, and a dark skin black woman picks person B over person A, then that is her choice.

I'm not - and no man need to - take responsibility for every woman's superficial choice. Even if person B "hits it" and "leaves it" that is neither my fault nor any other man's. It usually takes women - at least in the U.S. - entrance into their mid 30's before they begin to figure out most the stuff they've been told about what constitutes a "man" is horesh*t and subjective. Muarry Polvich (sp?) "Find my babies daddy" shows, are reflective of many American women today.

Black-American women should start dating and marrying more Asian or Latino men.

I'm not holding myself responsible for women that have the time of their lives sleeping with multiple men, then need to go on talk shows, and ask for DNA tests to find out which man fathered their kid(s), and then scream for child support. I don't care how much misandry infects contemporary feminism which seeks to absolve women of all personal responsibility.

I openly admit attraction to good looking boy-to-girl trannies. Good looking ones. How many Black-American women are into "studs" (butch lesbians that dress and act like Hip Hop males)? A huge amount. Openly so. I'm probably 1 out of 1,000 black males. Black women that like studs probably make up something like 1 out of 3 Black-American women. Its that prevalent.

Likely those women have small minded limits placed on males, e.g., he must be tall, dark black, muscular, etc. With studs the sky's the limit! She can be short, light brown, thin, addicted to crack, physically abusive etc.

A friend of mine used to bounce for a gay bar. He said the "studs" would typically come wearing strap-ons in their pants, so the female fans would feel the "d*ck" up against their legs as they slow danced. My friend knew this from countless "pat downs" at the door.

I'm not going to "hate" on anyone. To each their own. But I don't give a sh*t what American and European trash feminism says any more. I'm not taking responsibility for every woman's nit wit choices in life. They can kiss my a$$. I'm not waiting, and not accepting their unstated proposal of "accept coming in 30th place" after we have all our fun. If I become an oral surgeon, I can come in 1st place with top notch women in Brazil. No woman would accept 30th place. Imagine inferring to a woman she should wait for you and other men to get down playing fun time sexually with other men dressed as women, and fun time with white women living in trailer parks, the woman would have a fit. She wouldn't do it. She'd go visit Cuba and blow the first man she saw.
extra hour
Oh! I forgot to point out the reason dark black males have prestige.

The reason is pretty simple, also well known, hell... its stated very frequently.

The darker black the male the more "manly" or what some now refer to as "hyper-masculine" he is perceived.

Light skin complexion is associated with femininity.

That simple. No more thought put into it then that.
BurdenOfAges
Physical beauty fades. True beauty is a light in the heart, and endures.
avisitor
QUOTE (BurdenOfAges @ Aug 22 2009, 01:51 AM) *
Physical beauty fades. True beauty is a light in the heart, and endures.


That sounds pretty and has a nice sentiment.
However, it is absolutely meaningless when a guy leaves his wife for a much younger woman. embarassedlaugh.gif

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder???? eek.gif
baal
The remembrance and perception of beauty is an interesting phenomenon. I know that it is possible for a woman who was beautiful when young to remain beautiful in the eyes of the man who has loved her for decades. In his eyes she remains forever young.
avisitor
QUOTE (baal @ Aug 22 2009, 04:02 PM) *
The remembrance and perception of beauty is an interesting phenomenon. I know that it is possible for a woman who was beautiful when young to remain beautiful in the eyes of the man who has loved her for decades. In his eyes she remains forever young.


That is until he looks at their old pictures.
Then he wonders what happened to that beautiful creature he married????? icon_redface.gif


Back to topic:
If you're picking on a girl for a job such as waitress or cashier
then dark skinned or light should make no difference.
But, if you're talking about personal preferences for being liked or for being a friend
then these things are under the protection of "the pursuit of happiness".
You've got a right to choose your wife and/or your friends.

Oh, if she is pretty then she is pretty.
Please don't qualify it with statements of exceptions about being dark skinned or asian or blonde.
tangawizi
@ CBW, some of my kenyan frens who are educated abroad (States) share the same sentiments as you abt the african female perceptions.. it is not only about social class but also a desire to keep up with the trend set in the States by these R&B and rap megastars. My kenyan girlfrens go thru the exact same pain-in-the-@$ hair maintenance problems as u would!!! one of my best mates here told me how when she was in high school, she had no extra pocket money and had to "straighten" her hair with an iron on hot coals trying to copy Mariah Carey's hair and they literally fell out of her head afterwards... she went to school in Columbia University and is now a successful feminist activist rasta with cowrie shells in her dreads... Its her own unique coming-of-age look! But it costs $hitloadsa $ to maintain that hair for sure.. I dunno what it is.. whether to envy black hair or shudder with trepidation? There are always talks about whether someone has been born with "good" hair or "bad" hair.. and invariably, the "bad" hair are the really tough curly thick hair that take years to grow, and still look like abt an inch or so on the head..

this is a pic of my rasta fren, she took like her entire life to grow those dreads..



@ extra, your input from point of view of the african-american male is fascinating.. do u know that in brazil, people talk about shades of color as if it's just an everyday thing.. there is nothing politically incorrect about defining someone's skin color as accurately as possible.. my fren from Rio said there's more than like 130 defined skin colors in Brazil..! anyways, i think u are right not to take the rap for the african-american female's neurosis! I do hope u escape to Rio and all that political correctness in the states and find that carioca girl sitting on yr dentist chair with beautiful eyes and teeth lookin straight into yr bedroom eyes!! embarassedlaugh.gif

@ avisitor, i bet u are someone who feels inherently uncomfortable around people of other skin colors than yrs.. the way u get so hung up on things.. i think u need to go to Brazil for a holiday and stop spending so much time surfing AF telling forummers how they should be thinking or saying! you are getting boring post-by-post... *yawn*
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Aug 24 2009, 03:55 PM) *
@ avisitor, i bet u are someone who feels inherently uncomfortable around people of other skin colors than yrs.. the way u get so hung up on things.. i think u need to go to Brazil for a holiday and stop spending so much time surfing AF telling forummers how they should be thinking or saying! you are getting boring post-by-post... *yawn*



I'm fine with anyone who wants to sit with me and be my friend
As long as they don't smell like they haven't showered in a while embarassedlaugh.gif
But, you keep going on about how blacks are so different ...
someday it will come back to bite you in the @$$ eek.gif
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