http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/28/world/as...agewanted=print

August 28, 2009
Taiwan to Allow Dalai Lama Visit
By MARK McDONALD

HONG KONG — The president of Taiwan said Thursday that he would allow the Dalai Lama to visit the island next week, a move likely to infuriate China and jeopardize rapidly improving relations between Taipei and Beijing.

The Tibetan spiritual leader is expected to arrive Monday for a six-day tour of southern Taiwan, which was ravaged by a typhoon three weeks ago that left at least 650 dead.

The invitation to the Dalai Lama was extended by several local government leaders in the south and was seen by analysts in Taiwan as a political maneuver aimed to embarrass President Ma Ying-jeou, whose approval ratings have plummeted over what is widely seen as a slow response to the devastating typhoon.

The Chinese foreign ministry had no immediate comment Thursday about the visit. But political unrest in Tibet is a highly sensitive topic for mainland China, and Beijing has sharply criticized the Dalai Lama for promoting political autonomy in the region. His visits to other countries typically draw strong rebukes from China. Beijing withdrew from a European Union summit meeting last December when the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, and other EU leaders said they planned to meet with the Dalai Lama.

“Beijing, of course, they probably have a different explanation, but for Taiwan, the Dalai Lama is visiting only in his capacity as a religious leader,” said David Chen, head of the government’s Liaison and Information Office in Taipei. “He’s coming to pray for the victims of the typhoon.”

Mr. Chen declined to comment when asked if Taipei had advised Beijing beforehand of its decision to allow the visit, but said, “We don’t think it’s going to be a factor in cross-straits relations.”

Mr. Ma has made improved relations with the mainland a centerpiece of his administration and has sought to avoid injecting Tibet into his diplomacy. China is Taiwan’s principal trading partner, and the two sides began direct tourist flights, cross-strait shipping and mail services last year.

The Taiwanese officials who extended the invitation belong to the opposition Democratic Progressive Party, which has its traditional base of support in the south.

Dr. George Tsai, a political analyst and professor at Chinese Culture University in Taipei, said Thursday that the invitation was “purely politically motivated, aiming to harass both Ma and China.”

“While both Ma and Beijing are put in a very awkward position, the D.P.P. is in an absolutely no-lose position,” said Mr. Tsai.

If the Dalai Lama’s visit takes place, Mr. Ma risks angering China, analysts said. And if China retaliates, the warming cross-straits relationship is likely to grow much colder.

“I think China now is very much confused about Ma’s decision and doesn’t know how to properly respond,” said Mr. Tsai. “Probably China is, through indirect channels, of course, waiting for Taiwan’s full explanation.”

Mr. Ma announced the Dalai Lama’s visit while speaking to reporters Thursday at a school in the south that was flattened by Typhoon Morakot. Eddy Tsai, the president’s public affairs director, confirmed Mr. Ma’s approval on Thursday morning, Bloomberg News reported.

The president had rebuffed a possible visit by the Dalai Lama last November, saying the timing wasn’t right. The Dalai Lama has visited Taiwan at least twice before in the past dozen years, most recently in 2001, when Chen Shui-bian, Mr. Ma’s predecessor, was president.

Hsu Li-ming, director of information for the southern city of Kaohsiung, said the Dalai Lama had been invited by the leaders of seven cities in southern Taiwan, according to the Taipei Times newspaper.

“The Dalai Lama is not only the spiritual leader of Tibet, but also a religious leader,” the Kaohsiung city government said in a statement. “He also embodies love and peace and has comforted billions of souls over the years. We believe the Dalai Lama’s visit will help the victims get back on their feet.”

Aides to the Dalai Lama confirmed with the Taiwan government on Thursday that he would make the trip. Details of the visit were still being arranged.

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Out of all the religious leaders in the world, he picks this old hack to visit Taiwan. Ma should really be alert for the next few years; you can't please both sides.

While Ma is getting bashed by everyone already, what is he supposed to do, "I have decided to deny the Dalai Lama his attempt to visit southern Taiwan and comfort typhoon victims?" It doesn't even take a tabloid to run off with that sort of headline.

Did the Bush administration invite any controversial religious leader to Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina? And honestly, there are soooo many Chinese and Taiwanese Buddhist temples that any victim can just turn around the corner and find spiritual relief. This is nothing but a silly political tactic concocted by the DPP that Ma has bowed down to. What a shame that he can't even protect the ROC's constitution and sovereignty.

Even the Pope could've been okay.

good, now PRC should take definition of Tibet from Taiwan constitution( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._and_Claims.png ) and make Dalai Lama empire even smaller.

Ma ying jeou thinks that this can save his approval rating, They won a election over the DPP and like the democrats in america the KMT bows down to everything the DPP wants. Maybe taiwan can split in half and the southern part can just fu-k off if they want.

This was expected. Where else could you find politicians that can take advantage of a crisis and turn it into political leverage. Notice the people who invited the Dalai Lama.

Taiwan. Truly sad.




This proves Taiwan's model will never work in China. Can you imagine the Chinese gov with all this pathetic childish infighting during the Sichuan earthquake? Complete failure.

I saw this on TV commentators.

I was confused and surprised when I heard that.

It looks like the DPP is really not so much interested in Taiwan independence, they just go out of their way to be China-hater.

Now they are using this disaster as an opportunity from the sky to make political maneuvers.

But I think it is best Mainland keep quiet and remain quiet.

"This proves Taiwan's model will never work in China. Can you imagine the Chinese gov with all this pathetic childish infighting during the Sichuan earthquake? Complete failure."

The russia model is really good, democracy and being able to fu-kup anybody who messes with the government, including groups like the chechens. I'd be accepting of rockets flowing into the island and taking it over.





The DPP was never intrested in anything, they forced the KMT to liberalize politics in the government in 1990. Chen shui bian accepting bribery, bull$hit about protecting democracy while having fist and food fights at the yuan, and not doing anything about independence anyway pretty much shows that they are just there for the $$$$$$

You fail to see the political pressure the DPP is exerting. They have been capitalizing on Ma's deference to Beijing since the beginning of his term. Now that his popularity is plunging, their push will become all the harder. While one might argue that Ma should simply take a stance to avoid looking like a flip-flopper, it is difficult to do so when he is already being blamed for the slow typhoon response - a sensitive topic where he could easily be prosecuted as a "traitor" by the DPP if he should bow to Beijing's pressures. Nonetheless, this is a no-win situation for Ma. He is going to be seen as a flip-flopper, and this will not save his political career.

The bottom line is simple: Ma should've never gotten himself into this position in the first place. His incompetency during the typhoon disaster, along with the numerous other domestic issues plaguing his administration, opened him to public criticism. His stance towards Beijing would be largely irrelevant if he was a wild success elsewhere. As it is, his failures only contributed to the strength of the opposition's insinuation that he is Beijing's dog. At this point, his best move would be to step down, as I do not think his popularity can be salvaged.

CHina can come out and say China will not deal with DPP whatsoever. If DPP members got elected, it will cease all formal contacts with Taiwan. and Also cut down on most business between the two.

By laying out the bottomline, DPP will not have room to operate.

If China becoming even more huge economically, then it can have the ultimate weapon and ultimatum.

For those small and 2 of 3 tier ccountries such as Korea, Singpaore, if you deal with taiwan economically then no business with China. You can choose only one side.

The DPP is a grassroots party. It thrives through populist/nationalist appeals. The more China pushes, the more popular the DPP becomes. Sure, if not interacting with China means the destruction of the Taiwanese economy, then they will have to deal, but I doubt it. There are other countries that Taiwan can trade with.

Destruction of their economy will exert enormous pressure on them. Democracy is luxury thing good for when economy is still OK.

Once its economy crashed, KMT, and all its assocaite underground secret society will resort to murder and wipe out the DPP members Al Capone style.

KMT is the upper class or upper middile class, it doens't want to be poor or go back to farming.. They will want to mingle with China for better living. If China is poor, KMT will talk about defending against China invasion, if CHina's rich, it will talk about joining hand.
KMT is all about $$.

DPP (fujianese descendants) are bums, they don't care if they are poor, or go back to farming like before, therefore they are just anti-china no matter what.

This is a pure political move done by the part of the DPP slimeballs. What those victims need right now are food, shelter, and medical supplies. These idiots are risking the well-being of their fellow people by forcing Ma into this compromising political position. I hope they all burn in hell.

However, I think Chinese aid to the victims should not be interrupted by this painfully obvious political trick.

China should ban all DPP members from setting foot on China.

It should be interrupted, You don't learn if nothing is going to happen.

Kmt supporters are not Taiwanese. Kmt supporters had to leave China in 1949 (got kicked out), and they never admitted that they like Taiwan. Kmt only wanted to dominate Taiwan economically and politically, and does not care about the residents one bit. This storm crisis has finally exposed kmt's true colors. The lack of response from ma and the lack of interest from ma was a rude awakening for the Taiwanese who voted for him.

I could imagine and it would be better that those budget wasting/stealing madness

China does not care about Taiwan. I travel to China every 6 month to buy medical supplies. Mainland Chinese government and the Chinese that live in China don't even know the political climate in Taiwan, nor do they care. They have a blank look on their faces when I talk to them about Taiwan.

Taiwan do not need China economically. During the Chen administration of 8 years, the economy is exactly the same as it is now under Ma. There is no change what so ever. This is a economic fact.
Since China stole alot of the Taiwan's computer technology, if China completely did not exist at all. Taiwan would be better off. China will not make any difference to Taiwan economically. Period.

Thanks to Ma, the DPP is stronger than ever and will easily win the next election.

^ well to see that the Taiwanese economy didn't change despite the world wide recession and the dramatic decline in the US's import capacity is a good indication of the strength and importance of the ML economy no?



you're not the authority in deciding who is and who isn't Taiwanese.. your statement is as absurd as a democrat saying republicans arn't americans.

Actually it's the DPP supporters who are truly not Taiwanese - just look at "President" Chen and Lee selling out the Diaoyutai Islands to Japan. The DPP would love to be Japanese some day, that I'm sure of.

China probably needs Taiwanese port so its Navy can go to the Pacific. Right now, it got boxed in.

Taiwan computer technology is coming from US, just like korea and Japan.

False, China can make a difference to taiwan economy positively or negatively.

It can ask other countries to take side either trade with China or trade with Taiwan but not both. Guess where majority of countries would chose??

Politically it has already done that with other countries but it apply the same strategy economically, it will be disastrous for taiwan.

By the way, China in a way purposely withholding its development into semiconductor and IT so this allow taiwanese compies some breathing space, If it really really wants to squeeze out Taiwan IT field, it can do so. It just has obscene amount of money in its hand.

It can build 10 brand new state of art latest Fabs at a cost $40 billion without blinking its eye.

I look at taiwanese fund of total $2 bllion try to rescue taiwan memory makers industry. Those guys got slaughtered by the korean memory makers. Sh!t. $2 billion is child play.. so little chump change in China's eye.

It can also ask DELL and HP for its just-in-time OEM operations to be moved to CHina since alot more of their products are sold in China and the operations are cheaper there. But it didn't because China doesn't want to cut off taiwan 's cash cow.

Hi OrangePeel, are you being honest or simply misled by your friends or whatever your source tells you?

You seem like a nice guy, so I'd like to share with you the official figure, which can be obtained from Taiwan's government website. http://www.dgbas.gov.tw/lp.asp?ctNode=497&...7&BaseDSD=7

GDP growth:
2004 (whole year) 6.2%
2005 (whole year) 4.2%
2006 (whole year) 4.8%
2007 (whole year) 5.7%
2008 (1st Quarter) 6.25％

Ma became president in May 20
2008 (2nd Quarter) 4.56％
2008 (3rd Quarter) -1.02 %
2008 (4th Quarter) -8.36％
2009 (1st Quarter) -10.134％
2009 (2nd Quarter) -7.54%

Now I'm presenting just one figure - GDP growth. You can make your own interpretations.
Other figures such as unemployment rate are also available there, if you're interested at all.

Edit: My point was to show you by how much Taiwan's economy has been changing.

^ LOL, without the great recession all the numbers would be +. Even my cat knows that.

so childish

ah, sry there's a misunderstanding

I never intended for my statement to be supported by data, it was more a snide retort at the post above mine that claimed that the Taiwanese economy hasn't changed since CSB era till now.. thus suggesting Ma's improvement of cross-straite ties isn't helping Taiwanese economy.

It'd depend on if there's a NET gain of export, employment rate, salary, foreign investment, and CAPITAL GAIN in Taiwan. And also, it depends on if the rate of return is higher than investing our capital domestically or internationally.

Ma was right to agree to a visit on "compassionate" grounds. The risk to him is minimal, but it gives rope to the DL and DPP to hang themselves with. If they use this compassionate visit as a platform for "separatist activities" this will seriously damage them, give Ma all the reason he needs to stop the DL ever coming back and show the DPP as a rabid out of touch and utterly cynical party.

All the mainland needs to do is watch and say I told you so!

Japan owns 40 percent of all the large businesses in China. 40 percent of all the new buildings in Shanghai, and all major cities in China are built by Japanese investors. That is why China don't even dare to publically claim Diaoyutai island. China has to take orders from Japan. And you the kmt takes orders from China. I am glad you understand the real chain of comand in Asia.

No, China does not. China's government does not care about Taiwan. Nor does Mainland Chinese. When was the last time China invited the kmt to visit?? China don't give a crap about the tiny irrelevant island. That is why Mainlanders don't even bother to post here in this site. Only kmt supports post in this site.

Taiwan's computer technology is coming from Taiwan itself, from all the Research and development from TAIWAN companies. All the US and Japan computers parts are made in Taiwan.
China has send many spies to try to steal computer tech from Taiwan. It is often in Taiwan news media, when a China spy was successful or not in trying to steal tech.

When Chen was in office for 8 years, China refused to interact with Taiwan period, the economy is better than now, under Ma. Currently with Ma, the economy has taken a nose dive, quite ironic since kmt promoted the economic prosperity pre election. This will come back to haunt kmt in the next election.

China can't build any computer company without any advanced tech. China simply don't have the advanced tech needed to build their own company regardless how much money they have. They have to try to steal it from Taiwan or South korea, or Japan.

You need to correct your name to sinocoward, yes, sino coward. Because , no warrior would try to hassel a country 50 times smaller than China. It is simply cowardly. Warrior is a word used to describe an honorable person. No honorable person would try to attack or hassel a much smaller nation. That is very cowardly of you.
You will now be called sinocoward.

If you put it that way, there's no moral way for a bigger government to deal with a smaller territory.



You wanna post some support for those figures?

Sinopec is 40% Japanese owned? is Haier? Chinalco? Agricultural bank of China? China life insurance?

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1000 posts !!!

The DPP mindset is something I can not understanding.
Someone say something about them equaling to American Republican Party, I shink it has true.

So they like to play patriotrism card, "real Taiwanese" card, and so on, like in American they like to say "Un-American" or "Unpatriotic" to the Democratic.

And is also true KMT bow to them many times like Democratic do in American, because they scare to look soft or unpatriotic.

DPP is the radical right wing party.

But one thing I can not understanding, why they channel their energy into anti-Chinese. I get really confused. This has crossed the line. Politics you can play, but race and human lifes you can not play.

All those 7 DPP fuker mayors should have been exchanged to Lhasa in March 2008, to replace the dead victims and their families.

They have really crossed the line.

The world is really unfair.....why some innocent people get died by violent racist attacks, shop burned, family stabbed, and now their distant cousins across the sea, who if they pull their family book up enough, will see that they come from main land, now are thinking day and night how to fark them more.
Why Typhoon struck and kill innocent residents in Taiwan and why it must strike in the South, giving those fukers a chance, and why DPP fukers had to think and devise a way to capitalize on this situation.
Why all those Chinese people from around the world who have their heart broken by this Typhoon and donated their help now have to contend to have their love harassed by this gesture?
Why?????????????

Why??????

The only political party that is similar to the US Republica party is the kmt. Both are rich and use their money to tell lies and manpulate the media and both use large companies that they own for their own political gains. The Republicans has won both elections in the past, similarly kmt won one. Kmt is UN-Taiwanese. Kmt supporters came from China in 1949 (got kicked out).
The general public are stupid in the US and Taiwan, for voting Republican and kmt. Money talks and bullsh*t walks. I guess. But, when sh*t really happens it is the Democratics in the US and DPP in Taiwan are the ones that has to pick up the pieces. kmt Ma did nothing, not a thing to help with the storm. He has shown his true colors. And will pay dearly in the next election.
DPP is anti communist and anti kmt. Definately!! 100 times. It is very cowardly for a much larger country to hassel a much smaller country 50 times smaller. Yes, very cowardly! Even though I know Mainland Chinese don't give a crap about Taiwan. The kmt is a big time traitor and committ treason against Taiwan by allign themselves with the communist. Very sneaky, something like only the Japanese would do. And you wonder why DPP is so anit kmt? It is bluntly obvious.

The typhoon struck all over south east asia. Hundreds were missing and killed in China too. So, it is not just only Taiwan.
What are you talking about in Lhasa??
hey Truthdoesnthurt. You need to change your name to liesdoeshurt. Your post does not have one truth in it at all.

Fool, you just dont understand.

Defintiely DPP is mirroring Republican, or other right wing parties in other countries.

Dont argue on this one.

But hey, they want to be doing whatever is up to them, after all it is politics.

But I object they play race and human lifes.

LOL, majority of DPP are local rednecks, raising pigs and farming. When do they know anything about computer?
Hightech belongs to the Blue Camp.

Ehh? The DPP is a liberal, emphasis on social services, education, welfare, environment party. Hardly what you would call mirroring the right wing. I don't get this?

Why the Pope over the Dalai Lama?

In general, KMT's platform and voters are conservative, while DPP is liberal. I remember both of us discussed this already in another thread to our Chinese friends here in Asia Finest.
The ordinary Chinese folks are not good at reading the political landscape of Taiwan. I think the fact bureaucrats are predominantly KMT party members leads them to believe that the non-KMT must be rednecks, which is obviously ridiculously false.

Communities low in socioeconomic status are traditional KMT strongholds where the Party Machine thrives: old 49er veterans, fishermen, farmers, rural or distant villages, aboriginal villages. They vote conservatively. Other conservative votes, at the other end of the spectrum, are the bureaucrats(軍公教).

DDP support comes from people working in trades, manufacturing, small business, and doctors, professors and lawyers. DPP supporters live in urbanized areas. The cities provide them the environment, safety, technology, and access to organize themselves against the Party(the KMT). To organize and participate in anti-Party, or democratic activities, there must be lots of places and opportunities where people can congregate and share political ideas anonymously.

I understanding what you say.
But parties can have different stances in different areas or spectrum.
For example, in ecomonic can be left leaning, in foreign policy can be right leaning.
My meaning when I say they are right wing, is becaourse they use things such as "Taiwan is my country" , "Taiwan for Taiwanese" , patriotism and sovereignty, these are the same principles and slogans used by all right-wing parties in the whole world.
So I hope you understanding.

Anyway I dont have any arguments or debates with any Taiwanese people here, who I consider my cousins, but I just find DPP very disgusting and repulsive.

I shink they dont mirror Republican Party, they more like BNP (British National Party) in Britan, or ONP (One Nation Party) in Australia. Wery racist and confused.

But I would say they are even one step higher than BNP or ONP, becaourse BNP/ ONP never turn themselves into anti Anglo-Saxon. Only DPP turn themselves into anti Chinese. How more skilled and high level can you get????

There is actually alot of doctors in Taiwan, several in every block. Go see for yourself. The middle class in Taiwan are DPP, middle class professionals, and like all the office employees in all the companies are all local Taiwanese. In Taiwan, 80 percent are Taiwanese, while only 20 percent are the decendents from kmt 1949 era, and they own many of the larger companies. It is true kmt has won elections. That is simply because, kmt uses alot of money during elections to buy votes. Oh yes, I was watching a TV report during pre election. In some small towns, when they open the election ballots, it is all 100 percent kmt votes. One has wonder, how can this happen??? It is because kmt is buying votes. With the economic recession, kmt will not have enough money to continously buy votes in the future. When the money runs out, so will the votes for kmt.
Also, you have to remember too, that every time a canadiate like former president Lee Deng Fei wins elections. It is a big win for DPP. Lee may wear blue and call himself kmt, but he is not, he is DPP. So, yes, DPP will have very good chances of winning elections in the future.

Republicans own many large businesses, and uses media to brainwash americans.
kmt own many large businesses , and uses media to braiwwash, lie, and buy votes during elections.

democratics are liberals and middle class folks.
DPP are liberals and middle class folks, yes, liberals fight for freedom, democracy, and independence.

what part of this don't you understand?
Truth does hurt for you.

`Taiwan is highly urbanized and industrialized, but is still mainly a conservative society. These are undisputed facts. Unions are weak, no gay rights etc etc.

conservative population:
bureaucrats, military, police, education workers(public servants)
extreme rich
extreme poor
ethnic minorities
farmers and fishermen

liberal population:
labors and engineers
professors or instructors (in higher-education)
healthcare providers
lawyers
small business owners

Doctors, lawyers and professors are highly respected and influential bunch of people in Taiwan and we have many. That's what a civilized society requires anyway.

I hope and pray that you will be right.

It doesn't even matter whether the DPP wins. Chen Shui-bian toyed with the idea of declaring independence, but US pressure forced him to back down. The reason is simple: without US support, there is no way that Taiwan could withstand an invasion from the mainland, and China has shown no sign that it is backing off from its Anti-Seccession Law of 2005. Not now, and not likely in the future. The fate of Taiwan is, as such, dependent almost entirely on Sino-American relations.

This post was true of 1980's. But, not today. China's government and their people have already forgotten about Taiwan. Taiwan is insignificant to them. I have traveled to China to buy medical supplies every 6 month. I have spoken to Mainlanders about Taiwan, I can tell you right now, the government in China and Mainlanders don't care about Taiwan one bit. They don't even bother to invite kmt for a visit. In fact, even if you look at the Korean pinnensula, both China and US agreed to not send troops if anything occurs. The invasion card that you are trying to play is irrevelant.
DPP does have good chances of winning future elections. Because Ma has done it to himself when he disrespect Taiwan lives during the storm damages. His failures will be DPP's gains.

There are many candiates in kmt, if they win, it will be a win for DPP. Because, just like Lee Deng Fei , 80 percent of people in Taiwan are Taiwanese. This is the reality you just can't handle. HAHAHA And there are many smaller political parties like the Taiwan solidarity union etc that will help DPP as well. I know reality is just too hard for you. ha ha ha!
DPP won the last two elections. plus Lee Deng Fei won one, that is 3 all together. and kmt Ma only won one, but his approval rating is at 16 percent. I say overall, DPP is doing alot better than you!
Taiwan is populated by Taiwanese. If you don't like us you are free to move out. No one asks you to stay in Taiwan. You are free to move back to wherever your fathers came from. I don't care! Taiwanese will always be all around you. There is nothing you can do. ha ha ha!

^ by definition 100% of Taiwanese citizens are Taiwanese.. so I don't know where you got 80%..
and far from all native Taiwanese support tai-du... try not to speak for everyone in your country, if you want you can present a referendum result or something to back up your claims.



um.. you realize the PLAN, PLAAF, 2nd artillary is pretty much designed around Taiwan scenerios.. Taiwan is nowhere near off no.1 priority to CCP policy makers.. you just havn't heard as much because there hasn't been as much problems lately with kmt on top.. plus ML people arn't very interested in politics unless it deals with local corruption.. much less Taiwanese politics...

Each day there is 10,000 chinese refugees from Burma/Myamar crossing the border into China. Since China loves to unify with chinese, or previous chinese whatever. Here is your best Chance. China is free to keep them all. Is China obcessed with unifying with Tibet and Taiwan. Well, here are the Burma chinese running into China every day, now. HAHAHA. There will be no double standard here. Beijing can keep them all.
Heck, Beijing is one who is supporting the Burma governements with money , guns and trade, so here are all the refugees from that repressive regime. You can keep them all!!

^ wrong thread man...

If not for the political "alliance" between Burma and China, annexation is actually a very real possibility.

Do you think he really just went to pray? Or is it a political statement , or something else?