http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009...ap_and_rankings

Wow....apparently we are in danger of becoming a fail state...and M'sia is in a much better place ?
Interesting report there.

O my goodnes! I think i've to start panicking now!!
Oke, we have a lot of traffic jams, pollution and terrible sinetrons... but a failed state in danger?...
Hmm....this article looks interesting, but completely unreliable...

^Yes that's why I posted it....I don't think we are "in danger" of becoming a fail state.
Funny thing it comes from a well known magazine, Foreign Policy.

The article is very interesting. We should discuss it with open heart and sincerity, no by hypocritical talkings

Our country was already a failed state since years ago.

Our country, nowadasy, is one of the most corrupt in the world. Not just corrupt, but very very corrupt.








See......

We are number 7 the most corrupt people in the world.

And, if the government, military and police are most corrupted institutions in Indon, no wonder other countries call us as Asian Bandit.......

Indonesia a fail state? I don’t know, but I consider Java as a “fail island” After living there for 19 years I decided to move back to my home country last June. I did not like to stay there anymore, overcrowded very bad roads. More and more macet in the cities due to increasing numbers of motorcycles. Terrible pollution of air and waster, garbage everywhere. The thing that scared me the most was the increasing banjirs, the last 2 years when I stayed in Solo , where I lived for 11 years I had often watched and waited the moment the water creeped into the house. Waduk Gajah Mungkur south of Solo near Wonogiri is a kind of time-bomb. The government knows all about it but does nothing. The big bosses in Jakarta do like a lot of talking, make promises by the dozen, but they only think about themselves, bunch of egoists. What hurts ost of all what injustice in Indonesia, no one cares about others as long their own life is OK. So I said bye-bye to Java and moved back to save Amsterdam. I will be back in Indonesia in December for a 3 month project on Seram and Ambon, I will hope I can avoid Java. Although I will mis the food and friendly people there.

^You are correct, Java from what I've heard now and what I experienced in the past is quite much like what you said, I do not think any Indonesian would argue against you. However Indonesia isn't Java and Java isn't Indonesia. Well I guess every country has its failed provinces/states.

Well like Joe said you do have "a critical, down to earth and balanced view of Indonesian history than most ppl"
Just one correction, I think he should have said "than most Indonesian" and that's the embarrassing part .

I am not Indonesian so to form a different opinion is easier for me as I know the outside world, most Indonesians don't. In 19 years I have seen nearly every province in Indonesia, most Indonesians don't. I just read a very true sentence in Kompas "Indonesia, Jangan Terjebak Nasionalisme Reaktif"

You are right to say that Indonesia isn't Java, but when you say Java isn't Indonesia you are wrong. After 27 december 1949 when the Dutch "granted" the country to the Indonesians, the Indonesian Goverment did not change the organisation of the country which was "Java & Buitengewesten" with Batavia which became Jakarta as commercial centre in the middle of the web. Due to the Javanisasi that took place under the Javanese presidents Soekarno and Soeharto Java became the most important island again, as it always was. All the other islands are there to provide people on Java a better live, actually a certain percentage of those Javanese. That is a crying shame.

I'm not trying to be a nationalist of Malaysia although I'm a Malaysian. I know about my state past history and extremely proud of it more than I'm proud of Malaysia and I'm a Malay of Thai ancestry. We defend our kingdom (state) from being invaded by Burmese and Central Siam without being helped by anyone, not even British because our king was deceived by Francis Light and Penang now is a separate state.

Some of us in Malaysia too know about how Indonesia being formed, not only through buluh runcing war but also from the agreement with Aceh. We learn about Indonesia, Philippines, and also Myanmar nationalism. Basically we never think bad about others as civilians. We have Acehnese community in Yan district of Kedah state, and we have kuih Karas but we never declare it as our own traditional cookies like the Pendet dance case (that person who made the vid is stupid) because we know it is originated from Acehnese. In reverse to Indonesian claimants that we are all ignorant and following our government nationalism. We don't have Malaysian nationalism, only Malay nationalism which began during the period of British "Malayan Union" where all Malay organizations of different states (kingdoms) getting together and forming UMNO. Even today, the state of Kelantan and Kedah aren't ruled by UMNO people but by PAS which showed that we are different of the Southern Malayan people. If there is Malaysian nationalism, there will be no people like Galvatron or Dr.Giel and also like mr.Radzi in the AF who is not always in agreement with the government.

I agree with what had been said by Mr. Londoh. We Malaysians too are not total ignorant and not always being deceived by our medias like Metro TV in Indonesia burning hot flames about Malaysia beside turning Indonesians as reactive nationalists. We don't totally believe our media. Indonesia seems like a Java Centralize country with Java as the center of Indonesia. This is not from media perspective but from our own perspective. The reason why some states in Malaysian Peninsula do not want to join Indonesia Raya is because of Java centralize notation, we do have Ibrahim Yaakob from Pahang state who support Indonesia Raya idea. He's a Bugis decent and not a Malay by ethnicity. Several other politicians and Malayan Peninsula nationalists who have Sumateran ancestry too support Indonesia or Melayu Raya, I guess they expect that Indonesia will be a country with Malay identity but it turns out to be Java-Centralized country. Also some Malay figures like Chairul Anwar of Sumatera too is not being celebrated as much as other figures from Java.

p/s: I know that Malay is not the world. There are other ethnics, various ancient kingdoms of SEA. In North Malaysia and South Thailand, it's just an ethnicity due to Srivijayan conquest, at least that's my view.

Londoh Every other posts I have seen of yours, you seem to have a put down on Indonesia. Always something negative. Some implied racism there and Western superiority. I don't doubt there are bad institutions, goverment and people there, but don't try to patronize your post saying the friendly people in Indonesia. I have relatives there. I have seen good and bad in all races, culures and religions. Let's accept that. Why do some of you suck up to this guy? Dutch Joe Ragan???

the index showed the following variables as indicators :

- demographic pressures
- IDPs (internally displaced peoples)/refugees
- group grievance
- human flight
- uneven development
- economic decline
- delegitimisation of the state
- public services
- human rights
- security apparatus
- factionalised elites
- external intervention

when u look into each factor, u can decide where indonesia stands .... i don't think it fulfills half of the factors, does it??



my personal opinion is :

IF u have money in any country, u will feel that it's not going to be in danger of becoming a failed state, but IF u don't have money, it might become a failed state if u decide to go separatist or racial riot in order to get something for yourself...right?

This isnt news. Basically, according to mainstream concept of nation-state, Indonesia is always perishable easily since it is built on colonial border, and the direct colonist's political influence doesnt stay, or rejected, after the independence. The same happens to other similarly built country. Even Canada had to conduct referendum to answer the Quebec problem.

Until all the people of Indonesia find and agree to the uniform platform to the country (which doesnt materialize til now, even though Pancasila has been introduced long time ago, but no philosophical debates are conducted on that publicly) and an open-society is build throughout Indonesia without harming local cultures, Indonesia is in fringe of failing. New generations of Indonesia should prepare for political breaking as happened in Bolivar country in Latin America's 19th century.

Mr Masa Depan Yth,

This topic is about Indonesia as a fail state. I stayed for 19 years in that country, most of the time with great pleasure. I left 3 moths ago because there were many things I did not like anymore. Indonesia in 2009 became a very different country than the one I fell in love with as early as 1980. I just give my opinion in a discussion. If you don’t like me is your own problem, I just go on saying what I want to say, freedom of speech isn’t it, whether you like it or not doesn’t matter to me. Have a nice day and another glass of vinegar

Hmmmm.... u are politically very mature to notice that Pancasila tenets have long been introduced but never been publicly debated by the nation.... this ideology was imposed on the whole indonesian state by a military statesman (Suharto) right?

How do u think that debate will turn out if there were on the 5 tenets of Pancasila???

How will the intellectual class enlighten the different ethnic groups on this national unifying ideology??

That is not my problem, I try to be the solution. That's good if you are leaving Indonesia if you are not the solution. I never said there were not problems in Indonesia in government, politics, religion, people or culture. Or the things you mentioned. You just seem to accentuate the negative as with some trolls here. Not the postive development in the past 10 years. The regulars here who are Indonesian know about it. I take the good and the bad but I know how to differentiate and not lump the negative forces/people with the postive people who want to improve and develop the country .

And what have you done for Indonesia ? I remember spending hundred thousands of euros there by buying from Indonesians, giving people chances to work, in my spare time gave people “job training”. Actually I am quite disappointed in their attitude, but anyway I had a good life there, but I saw no chances anymore. I became bored by the lack of education and motivation of the people. The only thing that counts for many Indonesians is easy money earned without sweating. Education is something that can maaf MUST be improved by the government, motivation is something that has to be in the minds of the people. How can I say something positive about failing, do I have to say “Don’t fail”, just to make you happy? I have stayed for quite a long while there, many foreigners who work in Indonesia run back to mammy after maximum 3 years, I can say that I have tried, but not that I failed as I returned far from bankrut even after serving as a milkcow for civil servants there. Maybe I was clever as I always worked together with Indonesian Chinese, who can be considered as the spine of the country.

FYI, Pancasila is mentioned in the Preambule of Indonesian Constitution, agreed 18 August 1945. It features as the main core of, you may say, "The First Republic", borrowing the term one reads in french nation history. The regime stays until now and the MPR said it will never change the Preambule.

Sukarno introduced that during the debate of Indonesian "parliament" during the end of japanese occupation. Once, he said, Pancasila is "gotong-royong" (can someone helps me finding the correct word in english for this?). Suharto, knowing that Sukarno uses the concept for his own vision, tried to "correct" this by massively introduced this to people, disregarding many objections came up to his own view (Suharto seemed to mix it with his javanese backgrounds). Gadjah Mada University once claimed to be the university to facilitate debates, thoughts, and ideas about what Pancasila as national philosophy (remember Mubyarto). However, current government doesnt seem to be eager to conduct this. Most of debates about national building are now conducted by Lemhannas, too bad it focuses mainly on political and security area, not capacity and cultural building. One of the outputs, as you are seeing, is a chauvinistic view against Malaysia or hatred to Australia. Most Indonesians see "nationalism" through security viewpoints not cultural achievements. PDI-P supporters are the clear representatives of them. NO important secular parties put cultural achievements and building as their main characteristics. Why? As I said before, lack of philosophical debates. You might forgive this in a nation with almost 90pct of its citizens are illiterate. But not now, however.

I may say that (arguably of course) Pancasila (five principles) seems to be agreed upon by almost all Indonesians as the state pilars, but not yet as national philosophy. Strong critics come from Islamists (conservatives) and the lefts, although Pancasila has elements of believe in God and social justice.

Mr Londoh, you are just right; just a bit failed at the last part. I suppose you worked together with middle/higher class Chinese Indonesians. They have a long history of good educational backgrounds (many of them studied in western countries with their own money), unlike other Indonesians.

I as "native" Indonesian feel often disappointed too with my countrymen's attitude. The difference is, you can run, but I can't.

indonesia is the world's fourth most populous country after china,india and america
-wikipedia-

Honestly after Crisis in 1997, riot in 1998, East Timor seccession in 1999, war in Aceh, Papuan separatist movement, various sectarian conflict in Kalimantan and Maluku, I'm totally afraid Indonesia will fell apart and broken just like Yugoslavia and become a failed state.

But now I think we're stronger than before. Free, democratic, and on the right track.
Still have my bet and faith in Indonesia, just like kelapa said, we can't run from our own country, but then again... what to be running away from? we're building our life here.

Looking at the key indicators leading to national disintegration posted by Tangawizi, Indonesia seems to be in remarkably good shape, despite the various forces which threatened to tear it apart ten years ago.
Travelling between Australia and Indonesia, I noticed another key indicator of a healthy and growing nation state. Indonesian people are optimistic and eager to improve, while many Australians tend to be overly comfortable and content. I believe that the general eagerness, enthusiasm and optimism of Indonesian people is another factor which gives their nation a cohesive drive.

An article about pollution in Jakarta. Pollution of the environment is a very big problem in Indonesia. I have traveled a lot between Moluccan islands, I could not count all the plastic floating on the sea, even in very remote parts like Pulau Obi. Scars of failed mining all over the Moluccas etcetera

Dalam Hal Polusi, Jakarta Kota Terburuk Ketiga di Dunia

JAKARTA, KOMPAS.com — 9 September 2009
Polusi udara yang terjadi di DKI Jakarta membuat ibu kota negara ini pantas dijuluki sebagai kota polusi. Pasalnya, buruknya kualitas udara di Jakarta telah menempatkan Jakarta di urutan ketiga setelah Meksiko dan Thailand.

"Tidak berlebihan kalau kita bilang Jakarta sebagai kota polusi karena, begitu kita keluar dari rumah, kita akan langsung berhadapan dengan polusi," kata Direktur Executive Walhi DKI Jakarta Ubaydillah dalam acara diskusi "Fenomena Hutan Beton dan Polusi" di Jakarta, Rabu (9/9). Pada kesempatan yang sama, Dosen Arsitektur Lanskap Universitas Trisakti, Jakarta, Iwan Ismaun, mengatakan, Jakarta terlambat untuk mengatasi berbagai masalah lingkungan perkotaan, terutama yang menyangkut kualitas udara karena sudah 20 tahun terakhir Jakarta berkembang menjadi kota metropolitan yang sekaligus menjadi salah satu kota berpolusi udara tinggi. "Berbagai polutan udara seperti karbon monoksida, nitrogen oksida, hidrokarbon, sulfur oksida, dan partikel atau debu telah memenuhi udara kota Jakarta," ungkapnya.

Menurut Iwan, dari hasil kajian akademis yang telah dilakukan, sektor transportasi merupakan penyumbang emisi gas buang terbesar di Jakarta, terutama karbon monoksida, yaitu sebesar 92 persen. Itu disusul oleh sektor industri (5 persen), permukiman (2 persen), dan sampah (1 persen). Iwan mengatakan, berdasarkan perhitungan menggunakan metode long range energy alternative planning (LEAP) dan laju pertumbuhan sektor transportasi dengan mempertimbangkan jumlah permintaan, tingkat emisi karbon monoksida di Jakarta pada tahun 2015 dapat mencapai 38.322,46 ton per hari. Karenanya, untuk menetralisir polusi tersebut, Pemerintah Provinsi DKI, menurutnya, harus mengurangi jumlah kendaraan pribadi dan memperluas ruang terbuka hijau (RTH) yang berfungsi menyerap polusi udara dan sekaligus untuk meningkatkan kualitas udara kota. "DKI Jakarta dengan luas 65.000 hektar seharusnya mempunyai RTH minimal seluas 19.500 hektar atau 30 persen dari luas wilayah untuk keseimbangan ekosistem kota," ujarnya.

I recently saw some films by Garin Nugroho, including Water and Romi, which examines the garbage and toxic pollution of Jakarta's waterways.
The film was made 20 years ago, and the intelligence agency of the Suharto regime tried to stop the film, because it showed that millions of poor people were left to suffer without sanitation, sewers, or any effective system of garbage disposal, and toxic industrial waste was dumped in the outer suburbs, while the wealthy elite prospered at the expense of the rakyat.

However the garbage problem is not just a simple story of corrupt elite versus long-suffering poor folks, I even saw lots of ordinary people dropping their garbage where ever they felt like on the streets of West Kalimantan.
I was very upset when my old friend Dewi chucked her Coke bottle in the river in Pontianak.
Her excuse that she was providing a job for the river cleaners simply rang alarm bells to my way of thinking.

Alasan aja.
Real reason:
-Kemalasan
atau
- Their brains are too stupid/primitive to realize that what they do is wrong.

Sy sering menjadi sedih kalau sy lihat sungai2 penuh dgn sampah, atau di daerah hijau/sawa tiba2 ada kumpulan kantong sampah.

I guess you are right. Everybody got to stop making lame excuses and take responsibility for their actions.
Regarding garbage, as far back as my earliest childhood memories, my parents always taught me to never throw it on the ground, and they taught me to have consideration for other people.
In a society where poverty is a daily worry for many people, it may be hard to turn the focus away from chasing $$$, but if some extra emphasis in the education system could be put on showing the benefits of being "baik-hati", then perhaps the international media would see the grace and nobility of the rakyat and be less inclined to dump labels such as "failed state" on Indonesia.

hmm... what do North Korea and Malaysia have in common?
answer: Not part of the G20 countries.

interesting pic i found on net ,guyz, its for malaysia too ...

instead of doing that why cant you more descriptive as your previous post? it went to right direction but now its getting towards plain hatred

about malaysia
1. are u living in 1960? i dont think ur mom and dad eating mcd at that time
2. Malaysia send terrorist to Indonesia. (yes full of hatred toward democracy)
3. their media keep it silent of their state flaws. thats why most of u are brainwashed, cant have multiple and democratic kind way of thinking.
4. heavily bias and cant decide their own fate (again u are being fu-kin outdated back to 1960)
5. again this is 2009. malay suddenly angry by their neighbor improvement, and get jealous a lot if we get more economic attention than urs
6. we have pride for our independence it means freedom either like or not to like our own country , not just bottom feeder but brainwashed to like Malaysia or UK.
7. yes again, ur country too much think it is karma then help ppl? lol,
8. financial aid? lol. please help ur country give some other ethnic (non malay) financial aid, dont worry about us
9. . we would take down the gov if it necessary. while north korea "love" their kerajaan/kingdom, hello ring the bell?


do you see its getting pointless dude? u just pretend to be democratic, modest debater informative it is ended like u just showing how much u hate us too.
i believe my country has flaws and $hit going on.
all both of us need to do is giving as much information without being deceptive and bias.

I'm not quite sure your intentions on posting this but if it was to fuel the fire then you definitely succeeded...

Education and civic consciousness is the answer, but it will take a generation.

seriously I think Indonesia has severe pollution
I remembered when I studied in Singapore at primary school whenever I come back to Indonesia I always get sick
the air and everything is just bad
And now whenever I go back to indo from auzzie I get surprised by how much indonesia has changed (in terms of pollution)
I also really think that Indonesian are lazy
But then all people have laziness in them coz auzzies are lazy when the time is right but indos everytime
But I do think Indonesia can change and I think we will but don't know when
maybe when we stop being lazy all the time and stop pollution and corruption
The economy is improving so maybe we can!
Oh! And improve education the main reason why I am studying in auzzie for uni

martinez, Changes in Indonesia must come from people like you. You went and you saw how things can be. Then you should return and get your government to do something about it, either by lobbying, or by getting a position where you can influence things and decisions. Maybe even get into politics. It is up to people like you who have been abroad and received an education to see things differently, and then change things for your people's benefit.

I do agree that someone overseas educated should do something
but I am not into politics too dangerous
and uni graduates in Indonesia only get around $200 per month
and I am a minority, a Chinese and a catholic and many more factors
But then the president if I am not mistaken is overseas educated
And The vice president is Auzzie educated and a doctorate degree in the US
They should be able to do something

martinez, with your background, then I suggest that you should do things in private enterprise. For example you could be a civil engineering contractor, specialising in sanitation, or drainage and irrigation, or waste disposal, or building and designing equipment for such contracts and then sell the idea to the government. But then if you are not an engineer, you could promote such ideas.

^ and then u go home to Indonesia and join the elites living a life remote from the masses of ordinary Indonesians.... come on.... why don't u just admit it, you have an inferiority complex when u think of yourself as an Indonesian???? why don't u just pretend to be a Singaporean or British???

The only snob i see around Indochat is YOU!!!

Actually, pak londoh posting about pollution is one of reasons I left Jakarta. For good.