Wait, let me get this straight... Indonesia took the melody for Terang Bulan from a popular French melody in the Seychelles, added lyrics and called it Terang Bulan, called it an Indonesian song, and no one tried to question if Indonesia in fact 'stole' the melody? Of course, I'm just asking guys, not saying that you stole it in case your nationalistic fervour manifest itself. Also after all these years... only now they are so diligent in protecting their 'assets'?

Oh wait yea while you guys are at it maybe you wanna say Malaysia stole the American flag design too... and speed-dial the anak angkat Indonesia President Barack Obama to denounce Malaysia's plagiarism... well all I can say in Malaysia's defense is that at least our flag does not look exactly like the flags of two other countries... but then again that's all I can say...

Hehe well anything to distract the people from their own problems, I guess; it's all part of the stress relief programme. After all, who cares about removing the plank from your own eye before telling other people to remove the dust from theirs : P

^We did not start this thread...

I personally think that this "Curi Budaya, Curi Lagu," "maling malaun," "hina menghina" things are stupid, baseless and immature beside it has been intertwined together with political crisis. I had seen this kind of thing being the discussion and also some sites flamed with this kind of "Curi Budaya, Curi Lagu, Curi Bahasa, Curi Makanan, Curi Buah, Curi Ikan Arowana" things. It's not only happened to Indonesia and Malaysia, but also to Thailand and Cambodia. Also happened amongst the Laos and Thailand. Tak percaya sama saya? Just go to the threads in Thai, Cambodian, and Laos Chat of AF is enough. In this case where Laotians and Cambodians are attacking, Thailand and Thais became the victim (Thai king is also my king, but they insult him in front of me ). Sometimes Vietnamese being attacked. There are also other sites cursing Thailand came from Cambodians. Political border being inter-twined to cultural similarity or almost similarity as being stolen by etc.... and etc....

I had once sitting together with my Thai counter-parts in the varsity during Thai cultural festival in my varsity. While it came to South Thai region cultural part where there are Malay elements like Joget being showed, some of the Indonesian students began to rant and melatah saying that Thai tried to claim Indonesian culture. Well Joget is not Southern Thai culture but Johore culture (Riau was apart of Johore in 18th C), they just want to simply show that the region is inhabited by Malay speaking people. Also in youtube where a Thai uploader showing the video of Srivichai (Srivijaya) dance (they created the dance movement from Buddhist relics and some research in South Thailand) and some Indonesian posters said that Thai people stolen Indonesian culture. Well, historically Southern Thai was apart of Srivijaiya empire until it liberated itself in 10th C before being attacked by South Indians and absorbed into Thai (kingdom). That's why it's not only the heritage of Indonesian. But those rants came from narrow-minded people without International broad view. So, it made the arguments came and later people misunderstand each other.

In Topix.com which I think among those cheap sites, where we find that it's just a waste of precious time because civilians fighting on media sensational issues. The reporters of certain medias must get some news to be presented and demanded by their boss and also have the due date for everything. So, they must in any way presenting the news. Sometimes medias being used by politicians for their benefits and also used to spread ideologies and propaganda. There are media ethics but it is up to the reporters to abide to it or not beside they have to consider many things. It happens everywhere and civilians will never cease from bickerings, in Malaysia too civilians are fighting about Akhil Hayy and Wahida or Abby Abadi and Norman Hakiem and sometimes about personal problems of artists which shouldn't been the problem of others but since the media needs it to get the attention and rating, they did that. I don't really believe the media, they can be heard but not to be totally believed since we should also ensure everything ourselves through pergaulan, pembacaan, pengalaman sendiri, dan sebagainya.

Hi kids, before starting quarrel nr.109516 wait till the Terang Bulan is ready and eat it together

I thought that this thread were talking about food?

I think I can still comment to that news regardless of whether or not you guys started this thread, DEIM...



Thanks for sharing sonofgunungjerai. Quite tired of all these neighbourly spats really. Of course like you said the media are like vultures, and would pounce on any news they get and sensationalise it as much as they can. But yea again, this is what you get when you are neighbours... or should I say, when you get very passionate neighbours... you get different perspectives of the story, misunderstandings etc... but like I said if this is one of their several-step stress relief programme then I guess we should allow them some slack, shouldn't we

On a more serious note however, my discussions with Indonesian members of another discussion board revealed that a lot of them misunderstand how things are done in Malaysia. They mostly rely on the notorious Indonesian media for their information, which of course like all media cannot be completely trusted. I don't completely blame them though because it's one of the fastest and most convenient ways to get information.

I just can't help but wonder, again and again, why only now, after all these years, do those Indonesian fellows as mentioned in the news diligently protect their national 'assets' or whatever they call it. And anyway, back to the Terang Bulan thingy... can it even be purely considered as an Indonesian product? Anyway the origins of the Negaraku has never been hidden from the Malaysians, even the Malaysian royal portal - http://www.malaysianmonarchy.org.my tells the story as it is! Go figure.



Hi uncle, thank you for preparing that for us but I think I'll pass that. Feeling too full at the moment. I think I'd rather 'fight' over something that wouldn't make me bloated. You can have it all for yourself then

Currently, Indonesia need a "new common enemy" to unite their people ... and Malaysia can meet it as their "common enemy" because of our fault ... we and our gov't are still looking down their people and also their nation ...

Honestly speaking, Malaysia has nothing compare with Indonesia in the cultural heritage .. but we have to claim and promote theirs as ours in our tourism events because our people and gov't can get much-much money from it ... Hehehehe

Don't forget that we have an "Ambition" to be a center of Malay world ... So, not only their culture heritage .. but our state universities have also collected many old malays script/paper, legally and illegally, from Indonesia, especially from Sumatra.. Our big ambition as "Master of Malay World" will not happen if we fail to take theirs as ours ...

There is a new one in today's Kompas:

Malaysia Loloskan Psikotropika ke Wilayah RI

Look at this..

It is a pity those peace loving Indonesians are becoming fffu-kin gila when it concerns Malaysia

Indonesia can promote their culture to the best of their advantage. It's all in the way they market themselves - they've already got the package. I mean, even Indonesians themselves agree they've not been doing enough for their tourism. So why blame us? If you ask me these 'stolen dances' or songs whatever you call it are not even the main attractions. People go to Malaysia for a great variety of reasons - like for example in Sarawak ecotourism and our Dayak culture are the main players and we also have our own Rainforest World Music Festival and Miri Jazz Festival that are quickly picking up steam in the international music scene. We promote Malaysia as a whole, instead of depending or concentrating on a limited number of places.

So instead of concentrating too much on these 'stolen cultures' issues and blaming Malaysia for it, I think Indonesia should concentrate more on what it can do to prove itself as a very culturally rich nation, and that if tourists want to see the real deal of things like Gamelan and Barongan/Reog Ponorogo that they saw in Malaysia, they should head to Indonesia. But of course, what am I as a Malaysian to give advice on things like this...

For ages Indonesians have sold their cultural heritage to whoever had money. When they visit my home country, which is The Netherlands, they like to say when visiting museums "See what the Dutch stole from us". They should be glad that there is still a lot preserved of their heritage. Themselves don't fu...ng care. But all the things they see seem to make them very unhappy....a strange attitude. One should go, just for the fum, to Indonesian museums, most of the collections are brought together by the Dutch and nothing has been added during 64 years of "merdeka, it is only the money that counts for a very small number of people in the R.I. If the Dutch did not preserve the Borobudur the statues had been sold to other countries and the big stones had been used for foundations for villa's.

here we go again...>_<

I'm so tired of reading news like these

Personally I don't have any problems with Malaysia. I still regard them as our closest neighbor in term of relations, share many common culture and ancestry etc for most of southern Peninsula, the northern are closely related to Thailand.

About the culture, I can say Malaysia is our closest neighbour. The similarities and common Malay culture between Peninsula and Sumatra is a lot more than let say Sumatra with Sulawesi (or even Sumatra with Java-Bali). When I visit Muzium Negara Malaysia I can see they even exhibit Borobudur temple, Majapahit ship model, collection of Krisses from Peninsula to Bali, and many Malay customs and culture that the same as Malay culture in Jambi, Riau, and Palembang.

Don't forget it was the European colonialism that draw the present boundaries between our countries (Netherland and British). In the past often both sides of Malaccan Strait were belongs to single political entity: Srivijaya, Malacca, Johor-Riau Sultanates. But European colonialism separated some part but united other parts (conquered and colonized) of this myriad kingdoms and sultanates of Archipelago. Without European colonialism probably Maritime Southeast Asia (Indonesia-Malaysia-Singapore-Brunei-Philippines) would composed of 30 something kingdoms and countries similar to small Carribean countries.

I think the soo called "cultural claim" problem of our neighboring country arisen by contribution of both two parties: Malaysia and Indonesia.

Tourism Promotion
The cultural problem arisen because of Malaysian aggressive promotion in contrast of Indonesian idle and lack of promotion. Because of this we are probably worried about the "damage" caused by the "false and misleading image building" launched by Malaysian tourism promotion in expense of Indonesia. For unenlightened and uneducated foreigner (in the term of not reading encyclopedia etc), some of cultural products that can be traced originated from Indonesia could be mistaken as solely belongs to Malaysia. It is already circulating story among us, of how Indonesian abroad are shocked when they confronted by their foreign friends after going back from visiting Malaysia and tell them that Satay, Wayang, Keris, Rendang and Batik are Malaysian. As nationalist (many of Indonesian are) of course they are expressed their protest and say it was originated from Indonesia and Malaysia later adapt it.

Malaysia are really good (and too aggressive) in promoting their tourism. They promote everything; food, culture, dance songs. And by tourism Malaysia gain a lot of benefit and profit. Indonesia on the other hand is quite idle in tourism promotion. We have soo many diverse and rich culture to promote, too many material, yet too little effort to promote and too little money to spend on promotion.

Cultural and Political View
Malaysia tends to uphold the Pan-Malay cultural view, which included the cultural realm of larger Malay race (Austronesian to be correct which included Indonesia, Phillippines, as far as Madagascar) as their own. That's why the blunder of including the Balinese Pendet dance in Enigmatic Malaysia promotion happened, because they think if its belongs to larger Malay-Austronesian they are belongs to Malaysia too, although Balinese culture are truly belongs to Balinese people, and Balinese culture never thrived in Malaysia.

Indonesia formed by diverse ethnic groups and culture are quite sensitive in this cultural origin matter. As we taught early in elementary and junior high school about the origin of certain art forms, songs, dances etc. The acknowledgement, credits, and appreciations is our way to maintain harmony and diversity among myriad ethnics groups.
By acknowledge that Keris is originated from Java (as archaeological findings did discover the earliest records of Keris is in Java) is the way to appreciate the Javanese ethnic groups achievement. As well as Wayang, and Batik. If other ethnics such as Sundanese and Melayu also developed their own motifs of Batik, its alright as long as they not claimed as the home and origin of Batik.
Also Rendang from Minangkabau, it is fact that Negeri Sembilan is composed by Minangkabau people, but Malaysian promotion of Rendang as Malay dish may overshadowed and mislead the fact that the origin of Rendang as Minangkabau original recipe in expense of Minangkabau heritage.

However Indonesian might sometimes behave too emotionally and narrow mindedly. I think the true problem is not merely in the matter of claiming, but in the matter of how can they benefit and promoted so much in our cultural heritage expense, also the danger of false or misleading image building launch by Malaysian tourism promotion. Indonesian must realize culture is dynamic, spreading, and evolve. The creating-perfecting-mastering-recording-spreading-adapting-copying-evolving of certain cultural product is natural and common thing. Sharing common culture is natural things among neighbour, and the main urgent problem is lies within: Indonesia lack of promotion as the real deal, the origin of certain art and cultural form.

Hi Maya, you are funny, a long explanation that leads to nothing. It is not abt being extravert but just trying to do some introspection. A thing Indonesians cannot handle. It is very difficult to live on isolated islands it narrows being able to have a vision. What the Fu.. for historical reasons does it matter where rendang comes from

I do concern more for people who have double standart like this f@g

Urmmm, Malaysian Malay people are not really thinking that Malay is the center of the world, might be some are ignorant but not all of them are ignorant. That happens due to Srivijaya supremacy if you understand our local ancient history, even the Thais know about this but Malaysian citizen ourselves don't really know this because we are still ego with our own racist foundation, education and pride. Not becoz Malaysia want to be the center of the world or Malay world, Malay is just an ethnicity in South-East Sumatera Sumatera while in Malaysia, it is due to Srivijaya conquest around 7th C. BTW, Malay people in Malaysian Peninsula are the blend of mon-khmer people and the negritos in certain places and also there are people who claim themselves as Malay in Borneo and in Brunei. We do realize about this.

I'm actually tired of talking about ancient SEAn history including of Malaysia for those who can't differentiate what is ancient kingdom and modern nationalism. The text by Tun Sri Lanang was written during the fall of Malacca kingdom. He's counted as the citizen of Malacca, not Malaysian or Indonesian. Other kingdoms in Sumatera like Aru, Inderagiri, Rokan, Siak and Kampar was once under Malacca tributary. Pahang (Indrapura), Terengganu and Perak too were under Malacca tributary and they are the kingdoms on their own and had already exist long before Malacca was established. Kedah also had asked the help of Malacca due to Siam (Ayutthaya) intervension in Kedah around 14th C. Kedah had exist longer than Malacca. Why Kedah king asking help if not in some similarity that they share? it is because of the sense of brotherhood and because of the longer connection of Sailendra family with Malayan Malay people. Proto-Malay people had exist even in ancient Siam, not only in Malayan Peninsula, Borneo, and South Sumatera. Sailendra family who ruled Srivijaya is believed to descend down from SEAn mainland.



About looking down to them, I guess it happens in cheap sites like Topix.com beside being burned by Indonesian medias but that could be the reactions of some Malaysians that come after when flame of insults being turned on non-stoppable. Youngsters love to fight for nothing, compared to elders because youngsters has less patience and knowledge. Even I'm of Thai ancestry but I still respect people from Indonesia. Some of TKI actually talking with harsh manner to me, but I don't treat it as political problem and still trying to be polite. When I'm working in the airport, I had also helped an Acheh lady who was arrested in Malaysian immigration center and she knows many thing about us in Kedah too. I assume them as our relatives since Aceh community too living in the coastal area of our state since 16th C. I had also seen TKI being hit like animals by contractors who hire them when they don't understand instructions. What do you think I feel when seeing human-being being abused no different to an animal and being cast with tantrums? Not only Indonesian but also Vietnamese and Bangladeshis are abused, but since they are not working as maid, people can't really see it. That is individual problem, people don't know good manner or might be the education on manner had been neglected. If Malaysian people are arrogant, we don't even donate to Acheh Tsunami victims and also the victims of earthquake in Java Island but it happens otherwise when our TV station like TV3 keep advertising about the need to help those victims in Java Island and Aceh.

Malaysia actually has many other elements of culture in Borneo side which is in Sabah and Sarawak but I think they might also share their elemnt of culture with their neighbors in Kalimantan. Also from Northern Malaysia and East-Coast. But like you said that is the fault of, particularly Malaysian Tourism Board which is so fond of Javanese culture and I can tell you that most of UMNO leaders are of Bugis, Javanese, South Sumateranese decent who recently migrated to Malayan Peninsula around 15th C or 18th C. We have Mak Yong theater from Kelantan, Mek Mulong theater from Kedah, Menora which is also shared with Songkhla Province in Thailand, Tarian Asyik from Kelantan which is also shared with Patani Province in Thailand, Dabus in Perak which was introduced by Persians, and many others.

About Wayang Kulit and Batik, which had caused previous "remeh" conflicts between Indonesian and Malaysian citizen. I guess everyone should mention too about the versions of those things. Wayang Kulit is actually our past Hindu culture no matter in Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, or Cambodia. I know some Malay people who are raised with "strict" Islamic root (like if it is true) like some Christians and don't be surprised some "devout" Buddhists. Buddhist basically don't believe God or gods, only in Ti-Rattana or three gems. They oppose any linkage toward our previous past and also had banned several traditional theaters like Mak Yong and Mek Mulong because of "Pemujaan Guru" elements but we can't avoid our past no matter how.

I had watch the Mak Yong theater in my varsity last year and I had seen none "Pemujaan Guru" element being included in the theater beginning because they had modified and remove those things from the theater, those who played the theater are all Muslim too, I guess they understand their religion but that is again the fault of a certain political party for being extremist in some part just to get "vote." Every political party in Malaysia whether it is Malay or non-Malay are actually with their own agendas. So, basically as a Malaysian, I don't take "baby talks" seriously. They are politicians and will always be politicians.

Wayang Kulit

If we say that it is ancient Hindu culture, it must have links to ancient India. I got some information about Wayang Kulit from Southern Indians when I watched an Indian movie in Tamil called Dasawataram (10 Jelmaan Phra Narayana atau dewa Vishnu) lakonan Kamal Hassan. Take note that this movie is actually a "HARDCORE" Vaishnava Hindu devotional movie, I had watch few dozen of Hindu devotional movies from India regardless languages and regions although I'm a Muslim.

Anda tak percaya sama saya? Nah, lihat contoh ni, lagu dalam video ni bertajuk Mukundha Krishna and actually is a real devotional Vaishnava Bhakthan song. And anda akan dapat lihat wayang kulit dimainkan sebelum patung wayangnya terbakar. Hope non-Hindus in Indonesia or Malaysia not offended. Orang India Selatan membuat filem berdasarkan keadaan masyarakat setempat mereka dan bukan hanya membuat filem untuk berkhayal atau suka-suka. Ada elemen kebudayaan, nasionalisme negeri mereka, dan sebagainya juga.

Tholu Bhommalaata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7BR_w0yrLw...feature=related

Well again, we as Malaysian are not really ignorant or as what had been said, extremist becoz the bomber in Indonesia Mat Top Nordin is from "Johore," Malaysian Peninsula. We do watch foreign movies and aware of other culture outside our countries because our TV's not only menayangkan filem-filem dan menyiarkan lagu-lagu dari Indonesia but also from India, China, and HK without being dubbed since there are also Malaysian citizens from Indian and Chinese ethnicity, kami ada stesen radio berbahasa Tamil dan Cina sepenuhnya and I use to listen to them, but I don't know about other Malaysians. I'm sure Miss CD, Galvatron, and other Malaysians realize this, we have Jiu Jiu Ba Ba, THR Raaga, MY.FM, Ai.FM, Minnal.FM and etc whether swasta or kerajaan sponsored.

Wayang Kulit from India is called as Tholu Bhomma and played in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, and Tamil Nadu, and guess what, Tholu means Leather, and Bhomma means Puppet in Telugu. We are still not clear about Talaing culture of Lower Burma Mon state yet which is bordering Southern Thailand province because of Burmese Junta restriction and oppression. Burmese people called Mon people as Talaing, and researches said that Talaing means Telugu. So as to say, concluding Wayang Kulit is totally Indonesian culture because Javanese and Balinese played it was wrong too because many places play it. Our version of Wayang Kulit and the music of Wayang Kulit in Kedah and Kelantan is the same or almost the same with the version in South Thailand. In Thailand they still doing Puja to Dewa Pelindung or Thepa Raksh (Nenek Moyang and other elements like Chatuloka) but in Malaysia the practitioners had long changed it with Islamic ritual like doa. Example for comparison:

Nang Thalung by Ajarn Suchart Subsin, Nakhorn Sri Thammarat (Negara Sri Dharmaraja or Tambralingga)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yACzolCrlc4

Traditional Nang Thalung Show in Surat Thani Province

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yb_STsV9dY...feature=related

Wayang Kulit Kelate Tradisional (Kelantan)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKmdQ0utKHQ...PL&index=45

Kelantanese are highly nationalist to their state/kingdom. They don't even give a damn to Malaysia or standard Malay language based from Johore Classic dialect, but they proudly speak their own language. Even Chinese and Indian community in Kelantan don't speak Chinese or Indian as much as other Chinese and Indian community in other states but speaking Kelantanese.

Contemporary Wayang Kulit in Kedah by Pak Majid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKUZMYR8IYE

We share the style of Wayang with the people in Songkhla, South Thailand. Pak Majid father actually has dual citizenship which is Thai and Malaysia because of historical relation, his father is a Thai citizen from Satun (Sentul) and Sentul is previously apart of Kedah. The wayang style is not even orthodox anymore and they don't talk about Rama and Sita or any traditional tales anymore becoz people will feel boring, sometimes they talk about today's issue like H1N1, respecting others, health and hygienic and etc with humorous jokes. We in Kedah too are damn proud of our kingdom (state). We also don't even give a damn too much on Malaysia except that we know our state is now in Malaysian Federation. We don't normally showing our "Kenegerian" or "Semangat Setia Negeri" to others like Kelantanese. In Malaysia, Kelantanese are assumed like Indonesian. They also claimed our vocabulary in Kedahan Malay as theirs while we actually share the same vocabulary and most of Northern Kedahan like me speak both languages Thai and Malay with our pelat. Southern Thai Malays of Patani Province too speak like us and sound like Kelantanese. That happens because they don't know anything about us, but we know about them and even some Kelantanese admit that they're ignorant because they never mingle with other people except of their own people.

Then again, it is the "particular" fault of Malaysian Tourism Board not all Malaysian citizens because they had displayed the style of Wayang Jawa, not the local one. We can differentiate the style by just looking at the shape of Patung Wayang and the music style. I don't know whether the people in Malaysian Tourism Board are ignorant or simply because they adore Javanese culture since they are of Javanese ancestry? Actually I myself raging without have to wait Indonesian declare that Wayang Kulit is Indonesia "copyright" because they are not using the right style or version of Wayang.

Oh yeah, in China there is Wayang culture too particularly in Northern China part (Bei Fang Xiang). Whether Wayang starts from China or from India I can't give any specific answer.

Wayang In Shaanxi

Their Chinese dialect and accent is quite cute. It's written China Shadow. Hope they don't upset Indonesian.

Wayang in Beijing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJCBldGdT6U...feature=related

Wayang in Wuzhen, near Shanghai

The Wayang is about Xi You Ji (Pengembaraan Ke Barat). Some said that Wayang had began in China during Han dynasty. There are Shanghainese Chinese in Kelantan. They don't mingle with other Chinese community in other Malaysian states. Also Yunnanese in Terengganu and Kelantan state. Possibly they too had made the culture of Wayang in Malaysia colorful?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq4fVPPvhD8...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyCXSM45NHg...feature=related

Cambodian Wayang

This part is about Vanara (Monkey) fight. Cambodia is a proud only native Khmer country too. Hope they don't upset others with their Wayang. Still, whether Wayang is introduced from India or China, we are not sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC07Tp3cgug...feature=related

Turkish Karagorz Wayang

There are also Turkic speaking people in Western China region of Xinjiang. Also Turkic speaking people in Central Asia. In Turkey is only a part of Turk people. They were previously Buddhist and of Jew faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87_ty8dfHh0

Batik

Batik is also worn by Tai Dehong people from Yunnan, Southern China. How can it reached so far to Yunnan in China when it is actually originated from Java Island which is now apart of Indonesia? Tai people from Sukhothai too had subdued us in Northern Malaysia-Southern Thailand, Tai people had been in SEAn mainland since 7th C, living in Khmer territory by building settlements after they were pushed down by the Han (Chinese). And also Batik too was worn by the people of Srivijaiya, I heard this from my friend, a Thai citizen. Even he knows about Batik too. The style of Batik in East Coast Malaysia is different from Java Batik. Some people do not regard Tai and Malay people as different, but I don't know, culture could be shared or there might be further old relationship in the term of economy, political, or geographical between these people?

Batik Kelantan style, pattern and version



Batik Jawa style



Batik version of Yunnan, China



Those Dai women in the pic are wearing Batik. Just because Yunnanese don't have country of their own but their country being included in China, their art is not known to World and Batik could not be apart of their culture? It depends on you to popularize and marketing your own version of arts beside your creativity to attract people enjoying your art. By making false accusations, it doesn't even help you to promote anything but making others scared of you. Quoting an Indian citizen view about culture similarity or almost similarity, "Every culture is a manifestation of human evolution and great in its own right . Am sure you know this deep down. Don't let your ego fog your wisdom."

Batik Tablecloth



Dai Batik Painting



Laos Batik style



Southern Thai Batik style



Well guess what, the style and the color of the batik is almost the same with Kelantanese and Terengganu Batik but still have several distinctive style. Batik is used as Pathung or Pengikat Pinggang atau Kepala for farmers and fishermen in both South Thai and Malaysian bordering states.

Makanan

Many people in Europe too sharing Cheese as apart of their traditional food or could it be said as heritage. They have Italian Gorgonzola, French Roquefort, English Cheddar, Dutch Gouda, Italian Parmesan, and etc and they are all Cheese. Please correct me, anyone from Europe if I'm wrong. But I never see them talking to each other in immature manner although a French might have problem with an English, is that means they don't know where cheese came from or shared in other countries and trying to claim cheese as their solely heritage?

For certain people like me... I'm sorry to say and I'm trying not to sound harsh, but I can't help seeing that Indonesia as Java-Centralize country, especially during the Confrontation heat, we see Indonesia as trying to invade us by using force. We think that, it must be among the reasons why Indonesia always has grudge to Malaysia Federation because Indonesia can't invade us. But to understand us, we are not like Indonesian citizen in the term of nasionalisme membuta tuli or ikut-ikutan.

We know that our Central government is controlled by whom and what is their real ethnicity, Melayu Jati, Bugis, Jawa, or etc. Even if you ask Miss CD who live in Sarawak. I'm pretty sure, she does know about who and where is the Central government and her state actually has autonomous power on their own. We have to present our ID card when we want to enter her state or Sabah because of their distinctive rights being respected by other states. When Indonesia being mentioned, we could only think of Java because we only heard about Java being introduced with the brand of Indonesia.

We do know and realize that several veteran artists in Malay film industry of Jalan Ampas (Singapore) around 50's and 60's are of the regions in Indonesia today like Siti Tanjung Perak (Siti Sundari Samat), Maria Menado from Sulawesi. Teuku Nyak Puteh or P.Ramlee whose father is an Achehnese. Mustarjo (Pendekar Mustar), Datuk Aziz Sattar, and Marpiah Abdul rahim in Bujang Lapok are from Jawa Island, we can decipher them from their Malay accent and their physical features. We don't even claim them because we know about them but they are considered as the stars of Malay language cinema around 50's and 60's, not of Malay people.

A Funny Scene in Seniman Bujang Lapok in 1961

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEoJHmsPzJY...feature=related

Ayyoyyo.... Apa pasal muka banyak shushah jerit2 kasi? Taik punya halll la... Sikit gelaklah Ayya, kasi tengok ini cerita, yengge vahh, vahhh... That Indian man in the movie is actually a Kedahan Malay man, his name is Mohamad Zain. He don't even know how to speak Tamil in his whole life, hahahaha.

Let see, how one of the media source in Malaysia write an article. The article is only talking about Wayang in Kelantan and not mentioning anything about Wayang in Kedah or other states in Malayan Peninsula but it does exist in other states with various names. The article also doesn't mention anything about punya bangsa Malaysia or punya bangsa Indonesia things and rancangan mencuri budaya orang or kes Ambalat menyebabkan kita harus bertindak di luar kawalan... Gimana nih???? Don't worry, Indonesian can also use the marketing "strategy" used in Malaysia such as "nyanyian Hindustan dalam wayang kulit" and "using bahasa Indonesia in Wayang performance instead of Basa Kawi" unless if it is feared as spoiling the authentic cultural art.

Our medias actually can't hide anything like Indonesia medias because of the variety in the newspapers themselves, also in broadcasting medias. This is The Star newspaper, a publication of NGO based in Pulau Pinang, not of Malaysian government support.

There are few other newspapers which might be supporting their community, political parties, and others in Chinese like Nanyang Siang Pau, Sin Chew Jit Poh, China Press (Zhong Guo Bao), Kwong Wah Yit Poh and Tamil Wosai, Makkal Wosai, Tamil Nanban for Tamil. The Star, The New Straits Times are among English newspapers, while for Malay readers there are Berita Harian, Utusan, Sinar Harian, and Kosmo. For PAS people who are the supporters of opposition party read a newspaper published in Malay such as Harakah. I don't know how many other newspapers in Sabah and Sarawak. Only the people there know. So, how do you think Malaysians are if it comes to nasionalisme Malaysia tegar like in Indonesia? Mai mi khrap, khun Prah Than mod (tak ada lah, Tuan yang tersanjung semua)... I call everyone as Sir or Tuan doesn't mean that I'm bowing to others to be stepped on my head, but that is a sign of respect. Being polite to others not to accept insults. Get the meaning right or need interpretations? Chapeh dehhhhh....

GEEZZZZ the thread was started by well known troller....an "agent provocateur" trying his best provoke and flamed even more with the comments made by drdegriel or some $hit like that and we are still "discussing" and "debating" about it...we can ignore trolls like Otong, Joko, Petrus, Jagoan yet we can't do the same to Galvatron and dr something something. You all know how these 2 acts, in M'sia they act as if they are Indonesians, while here they act as if they are M'sians.

Maaf, Indonesia cannot exist without enemies from the outside world, they love to have enemies, like the Dutch, the Aussies, Malaysia, Singapore, Paman Sam, OPM, RMS, etcetera. It is a kind of glue for “Bersatuan & Kesatuan”. With enemies from the outside one does not have to look at the own internal problems, which actually are immense in Indonesia. It is very sad to see what a mess they made of their beautiful country. Although it is their own affair. If they want to live like that, silahkan aja toh. It is also typical for people who live on islands, their thinking is isolated from the rest of the world.

I listened to the song and it sounds horrible!!!

I had heard Terang Bulan by Anneke Groenloh.... Yeah, horrible and scary. I don't know that the melody of Negaraku is the same with it.

We use to listen to this song in Thai TV and radio that can also being heard in bordering states. I think I heard this song more than Negaraku or sometimes I listen to both. The song below made me feel the sense of brotherhood with those behind the border, hehe...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBDKah2nnvw

Cik Sonofgunungjerai thank you for your long and comprehensive explanations... You are really smart..

The problem is indeed many of Indonesian are hardcore nationalist and sometimes narrowminded. Its hard for them to accept other view if they already educated that wayang is this and batik is that, and shocked when they saw foreign version and easily anger and crying about stealing and copyrighting. I'm a student of communication and learn about culture of the archipelago. The problem is most people don't understand that culture is dynamic, and the process of spreading, influencing, adopting and copying is only natural among neighbour. Other might develop their own style and evolve in different way. Its natural and diversity is good.

The true problem is Indonesian are probably felt threathened of losing something (in cultural sense) to Malaysia, because of Malaysian aggresive cultural promotion and on the other hand Indonesian lack and idle promotion on this matter. It was Indonesian board of tourism to blame of this lack of promotion. However Malaysian board too often not doing a fair thing by using some part of Indonesian culture or style instead of Malaysian own. Probably we wouldn't make soo much fuss if Malaysian featuring Kedah or Kelantan Northern peninsula style of wayang instead of Javanese style. Or featuring Tari Asyik and Makyong instead of Pendet or Barongan.

Don't worry, most of educated and openminded Indonesian would do some introspection instead of crying some silly and tiring wargame with Malaysia.
Indeed most of blame is within us, in our lack of promotion.



You see we not easily putting blame on others, we do introspection too (Ya Opa Londoh...)


Oh yeah about the song Negaraku-Terang Bulan...
I don't really care...

Of course, of course he's an agent provocateur... but nothing wrong with discussing the issue that he brings up right? I see this as a way to better understand each other as well as a ground to prepare myself for questions from my Indonesian friends. Don't worry whatever happens it does not necessarily negatively affect my perception of Indonesia or Indonesians, despite my questions.

I don't think it's wrong discussing this matter and clearing up anything since Malaysians are always passive in defending themselves while Indonesians are not really open toward "outside world". I'm tired of seeing in many sites Indonesians attacking Malaysians for the fault of certain eager "tak kena gaya" ignorant person like Norman Abd. Halim or those in Malaysian Tourism Board for suddenly portraying Javanese culture in Malaysian Tourism Advertising. Very hard to find any blogs talking bad about Indonesia or Indonesian attitudes made by Malaysian but many in Indonesian sites. There are other countries that are not open to the outside world like Myanmar too and we too don't really know about them because of internal problem, but then again we feel sorry to them. We never think badly about Indonesians or other SEAn countries yet we still receiving insults from the neighboring Island country across the sea.

As an eye opener, We never have any fight with Thailand concerning culture 'remeh' things although we share a great deal of cultural traits with them. Since Indonesian do not have any mainland neighbors and might not really understand us, here is the experience of a mainlander. You can see Thai citizen come to Malaysia in border part buying gas even when our country is running out of gas and the gas price goes up to the unexpected rate, but many people in the border still selling it to Thai citizen because of our sense of brotherhood. We understand about each other and we never say anything like Thai maling petrol Malaysia or Thai Malaun.

Warga Thai Mengisi Tangki Minyak Di Bukit Kayu Hitam (Kwan Mai Dum), Kedah, Malaysia



Restoran Makanan Thai Sohok di Bangi, Selangor

Pemiliknya warga Thai, pekerja-pekerja juga warga Thai dan restoran ini ada 2 cawangan di bandar ini sahaja selain terdapat perniagaan lain. Ada banyak lagi gerai sebegini di seluruh negara dan penduduk tetap makan di sana tak kira waktu. Also we have restoran mamak, if Indonesian members ever visit Malaysia, I'm sure they know about it. No need for us to be jealous to others but we are happy for them.



Many Thai Tom Yum restaurants being opened in Malaysia and actually Malaysians from Peninsula including myself are supporting their business here. You can see their "gerai" with decorations and lights in the night when you pass by roads in Malaysia. They are all over Malaysia today. We never have any jealousy to them and Malaysian Peninsula people actually eat Thai foods more than what is called as Indonesian food. We do have Kuih Karas and it is introduced from Acheh by Achehnese themselves in our state. Say, if it had been introduced Internationally in Visit Kedah, some Indonesian citizens might "naik minyak tak tentu pasal" because Acheh is a wilayah in Indonesia today. But what concerns me is that, why are other ethnics in Indonesia care about that since Achehnese themselves never mention a fuss about this? There are also local people opening Thai food restaurant in Malaysia and they get the help and assistance of cooks from South Thai region. Instead, we also promoting their culture because some of us like myself and them are basically the same people just in different country.

Even when some ignorant trolls in Thai chat had attacked Thailand, I, as a Malaysian help defending Thailand and the King of Thailand because I know their ancient position in SEA as Siam and a country with diverse native ethnicity in the brand of Thailand today. Thailand had also received insults by Khmer nationalists who are living abroad and never touching their holy feet in Cambodia but still "ada hati" insulting ancient Mon-Malay heritage in Central Thailand as copied from them. Khmer classical period only began in 9th C and they had over-ran two Mon kingdoms in Central Thailand which is Lopburi and Dvaravadi but nobody making fuss about this.

Say if you see this dance, will you think Thai stealing Khmer culture because the "Ranad" which is also played in Cambodia played in the background? It still has distinct sound too different to Cambodian music. And also might be the same with Javanese music element a bit in the first video.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibg5YmQEdig...feature=related

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwURfnUZGVI...feature=related

Khmer dance

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_WEIPMPW0U

Both Thai and Khmer dance are still distinct with their own local flavors and special but many people are ignorant and just centralize their "view" on narrow nationalism.

The problems happened when you are too much jealous and thinking "yang bukan-bukan" on others. What's wrong if you just promoting any sources that exist in your country without having to touching others' sensitivity or blaming outsiders for your own faults? Terlalu egois juga tidak baik untuk kesihatan.

BTW, each states in Malaysia promoting their own cultural activities themselves. Malaysian central government only promoting visit Malaysia, not visit negeri-negeri. So, currently we have our own Visit Kedah 200-, or visit Kelantan 200-, or visit Sabah 200-, and etc. All initiatives come from the natives of those states.

Mak Yong

Mak Yong was first introduced in Kelantan by Patanese in 16th C. Actually it is Royal Court theater but sometimes played in villages as Main Petri (Puteri). Main Puteri has trance element. This Mak Yong vid is not the original show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qb2K5MgRJg

Main Petri

They will summon ancestral spirits to help curing disease. And this theater is not for entertainment but for curing disease. It's still played in rural areas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVY2_cL_aUI...feature=related

Mek Muloung

This one is our total Kedah heritage although it was said originated from Nakhorn Sri Thammarat (Ligor) by a Princess in exile and her "dayang-dayang". Well, my ancestors came from Nakhorn Sri Thammarat too. It doesn't exist anymore in South Thai but it still alive in Malaysia side. They don't really display this in Visit Malaysia because we are not representing the Central government and those in Central government. And yes, this has "Puja Guru" ritual performed in specific months according to local calender. Usually women are playing this but it was changed where men too can join it. This what I can say to ignorant Malaysian tourism board and those who are eager "tak kena gaya" suddenly going to Bali and promoting Pendet since they don't make any research about local arts which can be polished to be exclusive.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSOMX-nAoco...feature=related

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUNCF_FpCus...feature=related

Menora Tak Bai in Kelantan

1. Originated from South Thailand, I think from Songkhla but it is also played in Malaysia and Thailand particularly in our states.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvAKMI-K9TE...feature=related

2. This one is Thai version which had been made exclusive that could also been used for Tourism purpose. But as to say, it's stupid to accuse Thais or Northern Malaysians as stealing each other culture since we live next to each other.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIDxgiMRK9E...feature=related

3. This one is Pornchai Kliangnin, a Manora dance from Surat Thani. We in Kedah use to invite him to dance in "Ancestral Anniversary" day and he's a talented dancer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9-X93le2hM...feature=related

4. A drama from Thai TV channel 7 about Menora dance, the TV station is in Central Thai and the dancing came from our region but we never cry like Indonesians maki hamun Malaysia malaun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNQecsgjJEA...feature=related

5. Puja Menora

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkFlL2mTUV0...feature=related

So, as to say that we don't have our own identity until we have to suddenly hijacking Balinese or Javanese culture is quite harsh and also serumpun thing is quite menyakitkan hati because Indonesians are those who always talk about it. Most Malaysians are passive, we just accept anything Indonesia say as the mean to respect others. I can't believe that a leader like Pak Jerowacik of Bali in Indonesia could be so narrow although everybody knows about Norman ignorance and Norman is younger than him.

Hope in the future there will be no more wild accusations and wild claimants on Malaysia. We had been so boring with some Indonesian attitude like Malaysia tidak menghargai Indonesia and etc. What the heck with menghargai? We're not apart of Indonesia!

(no wild claimants that I want to claim Thai and Khmer dance please! I know my ethnicity well and I know my citizenship )

I noticed…Indonesia flag and Singapore flag has almost similar design and colour. Singapore was formed after Indonesia. Is Singapore has stolen the idea from Indonesia?

@ Msians on this thread... i notice that most of the flamers are from Msia, even if they are polite flamers like CD or sonofgunung.... hardly any reaction from Indonesia AFers here... If u claim to be here to right the wrongs of your Malaysian Tourism Board, u could save the condescending remarks on things like TKI, the flags, the origins of your grandfathers and their grandfathers...

The fact is this : there is trouble in the Msian political elites, there is $hit happening on the ground there which maybe some Sarawakans or Kedahnese don't even have a clue about in their kampung routine. There is a political agenda to whip up ultra nationalistic sentiments to divert the attention of the Malay people from the troubles at hand... the Malaysian Tourism Board is just part of the tool being used to whip up these sentiments. And Indonesian folks happen to be part of the "jingo" frenzy campaign.

For me, this trend is alarming. I have a foreboding feeling that the way Malaysia is going will spell big trouble for the region in the future. There is no racial equality in the country and they do not even strive to achieve a semblance of that ideal by giving everybody an equal chance to succeed. Instead, they dwell obsessively on their alleged glory of their origins and hype up the past. The Msian elites used to piss off the Singapore elites regularly, to divert attention from their political troubles... now they are pissing off the Indonesian people regularly to divert attention of their people from their political mess...

And it's all on racial grounds... all about proto-Malay origins and glory and what-not.

It's freaken sad... it's freaken hilariously sad and dangerous.

Quite possible, on their turn the Indonesians copied it from Poland

Oi, can u tell the difference btw Dutch and french flags???

Are you colorblind or so

the sad thing about u pak londoh is that u are so bitter about your relationship with indonesia.. that u seem to think belittling it is the only way to make u feel better... did u get jilted by many gfs there or something?? cuz the way u write on this board about Indo... the love, the hatred, the love, the hatred... blabla... u are like a broken old record...

no offence meant, i genuinely think u have a problem with indonesians which is quite sad and absolutely not compassionate... u always behave like a little flea chief with indonesians..

It's a thin line that seperates love and hate.

Well you can say that we try to hide our internal problem, but that suppose not to be the concern of Indonesian people the same as Indonesian internal problems shouldn't be our concern too in Malaysia. We don't even know how many political parties that exist in Indonesia and how many riots had happened in Jakarta except that we heard some parchment of news from newspaper or TV in international side and that is also not the reason for us to be nosy because that is their problem.

We actually never think bad about Indonesians, really... But sometimes the media in Indonesia are not fair toward Malaysians. I don't know whether Indonesians know anything about us but we know a great deal about their history and etc including of post-independence period. We ourselves did not know that we had been badly accused and slandered in Indonesia by the media until we had been told about that. Just lihat in Seputar Indonesia, Sumber Referensi "Terpercaya".

Indonesians especially youngsters always accusing us as "sombong," "pikir diri sendiri kaya," "menghina orang," "tak ada identiti," and etc other accusations but actually not all of Malaysians are like that in the reality. We don't even think ourselves as a rich country or whatever because we are not as rich compared to Brunei or Singapore in the term of currency. I guess everybody know this. I don't know where these stigmas came from if not from the media or "dipupuk oleh pemerintah Indonesia sendiri." Hinanya Malaysia di mata rakyat Indonesia.

About Malaysian Elites trying to manipulate us, we don't care at all about them. We know they're politicians and always be politicians no matter from what party they're. We are not like some Indonesians because we are aware of what is happening around the region. Also we can't really take what had been written in political column in our newspaper because there's possibilities that political parties and government (well, they're political party too) might be using certain issues to fulfill their agenda. That's what we in Malaysia think. I know some Malaysians too are taking what had been written in medias seriously. But nowadays many people are more open and not only believing one sources, also trying to search for accurate or neutral news.

The grandfather things is to clear up that we are not so much serumpun. Because I'm so boring with this term, where that also makes some Indonesians trying to claim us as apart of Indonesia "Province" and claiming even the culture in Malaysia too must be coming from Indonesia. They know their ancient history and also their contemporary history well, so do us. Beside many Malaysians seeing Indonesia is trying to impose Javanese supremacy on the provinces in Indonesia. It is no different to Malay supremacy in Malaysia.

So, I guess you know why is that some Indonesians are so angry to Malaysia. Bangsa serumpun was used by Malay nationalists of Sumateranese ancestry during the colonial time and it has historical connotation. We do know about Piagam Jakarta 1945, but we don't want to talk about it anymore and anywhere since it will also disturbing Indonesian prosperity. Indonesia is a country on its own so Indonesia will manage anything themselves.

Bangsa serumpun in the context of Malaysia is serumpun with Sumatera, not with other Islands. And it also doesn't mean that Malays are an ethnic that came from Sumatera because in Sumatera itself there are few other ethnics other than Malays and Malays only live in the Islands near Johore. That's why it is important to check Malay pre-Islamic history in SEA. They are just an ethnic minority in Indonesia like other ethnics but in Malaysia it has political connotation whether the person really is a Malay or not since they have the definition in it like Hua Ren or Hua Qiao is the definition of Overseas Chinese, if they call themselves Han ren, then they are an ethnic which is the majority in Great China not anymore overseas Chinese. But Malays only live in the region of SEA, not outside the region because they only move around the region. Those Malays who had historically living in other areas had been absorbed into Sri Lankan, Siamese, Burmese, Khmer and etc because they're just minority.

Yea, we actually are just the same with Indonesian in the term of our past glory. Our past glory turns out now to be 'Kenegerian' pride. It has nothing to do with Malaysian Federation. We treat it differently. FYI, my state which is the state of Kedah had signed the agreement to be in Malaysia in 1948. Before that we are just the Protectorate land of Britain, not the 'Colonized' land of Britain and we're not also obviously under Siam because they're just our Protector but you know sometimes when the Protector goes across the line, problem will happen.

I don't know about other states or kingdoms in Malaysia, but some kingdoms on Malayan Peninsula which are under British 'Administration' wanted their Freedom from Britain, so Britain had posed the condition that they must also persuade other kingdoms to be with them so that there will only be a country in the Peninsula, not countries.

The Kings of those kingdoms including those persuaded kingdoms (states) too will accept it only after their 'role' as the 'Penjamin Tanah Kerajaan Pusaka' on the kingdoms being guaranteed. North Borneo later too had conducted votes whether they want to join Malaysian Federation or not, so obviously they must have their pride too on their states and that's not wrong if it is in my personal opinion, it's not racism, but ethnicism. We have our rights only in our states. Even when I live in Selangor, I can't asking the right of Selangor citizens because my parents are both from Kedah including myself was born in Kedah. They don't count me as their citizen, but since I'm holding Malaysian ID, I can live in their state without using passport or visa. And this one, I guess people of other country in SEA don't really understand about Malaysia, unless if you're the citizen of those states in Malaysian Federation. So basically our nationalism is not like Indonesia. That should be understood by respective Indonesian fellows.

Those fussy things like culture, traditional food, Arowana Fish, Buah Manggis, and etc for us Malaysians are just fussy matters like this scene in Seniman Bujang Lapok movie (1961).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEoJHmsPzJY

What makes us surprise is that those matters could also turn out to be political and diplomatic problem for I guess the majority of Indonesians including being tagged to Malaysia internal problem which in Kedahan Malay we call it as 'Merawet' like the Indian man and his wife in the scene above making fuss of tahi terkena di mukanya. In Indian culture, husband also representing heaven and wife the earth. Husband represents pemerintah or kerajaan and isteri represent warga atau rakyat. I don't know how to translate 'Merawet' it to English, it's terminological but the secene explains the meaning of the word. So the answers from us too are in the form of 'Rawet.' Well again, I don't mean to be harsh to Indonesia instead, that I don't have any negativity toward Indonesia but I hope that the internal matter or political matter of other countries shouldn't be mixed up with other sentiments like nationalisme Belanda or what. You should know how to differentiate things.

Oh don't worry, my criticisms of my own country are much worse... if you'd like a sadistic exhibition of them then dig up my posts... of course, they're not as scathing as what I would say in real life. ; )

I don't know why you keep thinking my criticisms are also specifically aimed at Indonesian AFers to say the least. Maybe I should begin my replies with 'Not Aimed At Indonesian AFers' next time to clear the air. I was more to replying what the Indonesians in the news articles said as where else can I reply to their statements, but I should've known telepathy is not my strength.

Thank you too for being like some of those ignorant West Malaysians that take any opportunity they can of using the word kampung with us Sarawakians (dunno bout the Kedahans). We're painfully aware of how things are in West Malaysia by the way thank you very much. What you said about 'There is a political agenda to whip up ultra nationalistic sentiments to divert the attention of the Malay people from the troubles at hand' is not new to me, unfortunately I've heard them hundreds of times before.

I guess what you don't realise too tangawizi is that I also always try to add some positive outlook in my 'criticisms'. I sincerely meant it when I said that if 'Indonesia think Malaysia is too aggressive in its tourism campaign' (in Majapahitan's words) or in mine, if Indonesia is not comfortable with Malaysia apparently stealing its culture, that Indonesia can spend more time proving itself as the place where tourists can look for the real deal in Gamelan or other imported Indonesian heritage one can find in Malaysia. Being a culture-enthusaist I've always appreciated the richness of Indonesian arts and culture, so if you think I regard Indonesia poorly then it's up to you.

Before you posted this reply I was thinking of bringing up the Malaysia+Indonesia tourism collaborative campaign and how we can use it as a platform to bolster our respective tourism campaigns and each others', as well as helping us better understand and appreciate each other... and also how disappointed I am that it doesn't seem to be picking up much steam as much as the Malaysia+Singapore tourism collaborative. But I guess it doesn't really matter now so I'll just leave it at that.

And lastly you have no idea how helpful Majapahitan and sonofgunungjerai's participations in this thread are to me. My internet experience is not just limited to AF. I join other discussion boards where I engage in discussion with hundreds of other Indonesian users, and they're often asking me questions (some very stinging ones) about this issue. AF has been a helpful referral for me and I've often reached mutual agreement and understanding with these users. When I ask questions, I get answers - look at how Maja and sonof replies benefit me immensely. If I don't, I wouldn't get any. It's as simple as that. If the other Indonesian AFers participated I might get even more insight to this issue, but it's up to them if they don't.

So maybe it would help tanga, if you can please stop being so quick to judge people like you know them through and through. I myself on the other hand do see somewhat why you may think I'm a flamer, and I apologise and will try to present my points in a better way. I know the flag referral was unnecessary and sarcastic, but I couldn't help indulging in some bit of juice. I'll leave the juice out next time then : )

--

To Maja and sonof, terima kasih banyak-banyak for participating in this thread and providing much insight to both sides of the story. I am not capable of replying to every precious detail that you take time to indulge in, but do know that your replies are extremely helpful and have even opened up perspectives that were not known to me before.

So copying the idea of flag design and idea is something acceptable. Just like Malaysia, US and Liberia flag, and Scandinavian country flag.

And you are a flamer too, flaming the indonesians and at the same time pissing off the Malaysians.

@ sonofgunung, what do u think the knowledge of history is useful for? For me, the knowledge of history is to have a sense of who we are, where we are, and what we gonna be in future... but not to be stuck in the past. Agree??

@ CD, u know I am not attacking u but rather pointing out just how easy it is for us to stoke resentment and hatred on nationalistic lines, when we indulge in sarcasm and caustic comments about TKIs, flags etc... it just shows u haven't risen above the political agenda of these spats between Indo and Msia.. SG and Msia have had their fair share of spats too, but we have always seen how Msian elites are acting like 'drama queens' just to divert attention from political problems. So, it comes to us as second nature that the only way to deal with 'drama queens' is not to indulge in their dramas. We learn not to say unnecessary crap to Msians unless it is absolutely necessary. So, you should keep that in mind too and not say unnecessary things to stoke the flame. We live in a region where things can turn ugly. It is important we keep a cool head and rise above the petty people and their addiction to flamings.

freaken drama queen

Yep, I agree that history is not to stuck with the past but it's still important to know how things begin as many youngsters don't even have any Jati Diri in themselves. Anyway, we learn history to learn from mistakes that happened in the past too beside using it as the model for future development if we have glorious past and filthering what bad that we had done so that it won't happened again in the future.

I guess Chinese people do know about their past history that made they remember who they, are where ever they are and they still talk about it even until now. It's not about bragging in the past. Indonesians do talking about their past because it is the source of their modern nationalism. History is not only about ancient history but it can be anything. History is also used to build technologies. So how is it, that it's not important? We learn about maths, science, and etc from history. Greeks regard all of the sciences or knowledge as one, which consist in what we call as philosophy. Only in modern days we separate knowledge and sciences to different rooms. They're all useful in many terms

Miss Tang, we do condemning our own country without having to wait for foreigners condemning those leaders no matter what race they're. They're just the same, politicians. We understand the nature of our political environment which is also unique because of different political parties based on racial identity. That had happened since post-independence and still going on till now. That's why I keep telling everyone including Indonesian fellows that they can't assume us as the same with Indonesian in the term of nationalism because we have many layers and we are also unlike the US because Indians in the US don't have specific rule before the arrival of immigrants. Our states were actually homogenous before British came, not heterogenous like what had been shown in Malaysian TV today. Multi-racial things only come post-Independence. There are also small community of immigrants in our states like Arabs, Persians, Chinese and Indians but like you see the actor who played the character of an Indian man (Mohd Zain) in the funny scene video that I had previously posted, they had already assimilate with locals and considered as Malays although they might look like an Indian or a Chinese and the process is actually very long before another large wave of immigrants entering the Selat states. Don't simply get me in the wrong sight, I'm not a racist yet I had mixed with various races such as Indians and Chinese. If not, I won't be aware about Indian culture or others' cultural traits that I had already posted in various of my posts in AF and I don't even care about those Ketuanan Melayu thing because I myself have Thai ancestry and actually speaking Thai at home. That's just this recent when every state became apart of Malaysia, Malaysia as a new country became a multi-racial and multi-lingual country.

If you want to talk about Malaysia, even until today, you have to understand, we are of Negeri Selat, Negeri Melayu Bersekutu and Negeri Melayu Tak Bersekutu. Negeri Melayu Tak Bersekutu are not British administrated land. They can't just treat us the same. This is our contemporary history and still going on till now while Sabah and Sarawak are special on their own too. They join Malaysia Federation after we in the Peninsula being forced to join the Federation. Those which were actually administrated by British in Malayan Peninsula are Pulau Pinang, Melaka, Singapore, and Dinding (in Perak coast), so supposedly, the real Malaysia that British would form are Negeri-Negeri Selat and Negeri-Negeri Melayu Bersekutu. But Indonesian fellows had been angry to us without knowing how things going with some of them talking about 'Ganyang' Malaysia in which we are also in the Federation when they 'Rawet' about those Tourism matters. Everybody love their state/kingdom/country in Malaysia. Even when you ask Miss CD who are a Boreno citizen, I'm pretty sure she loves her state of Sarawak so much and she doesn't want it to be harmed. The same thing goes to me and other fellows. We should first doing research before condemning. It's not that there is no space to condemn.

As you can see, we from various states too being looked down upon by our fellow country men. Like we in Kedah, we had voting for opposition parties because federal government was looking down to us like we haven't contribute anything to the federal government. They sucked our paddy, sugar cane, rubber, and also made a district in Kedah have to face flood every year because they had intruded our only Mountain in the Kedah plateau without giving much benefit to us. But this is not the problem of other country or states, I'm just stating some. Sarawakians and Sabahans to had been looked down but lately Federal government had put emphasize more on our Borneo side. They will act like they care during the 'election' in certain part but after that they will just crumb us into the thrash can. We do realize this, it's politic. Even in KL, I can't show my identity as often as I can but to act like KLites or else they will feel annoyed with me and saying that I'm not 'urban,' a kampung folk. I guess this also happens every where. In Indonesia, in Thailand, or elsewhere.

If my flag comment then yes I was being sarcastic but I didn't think anyone was necessarily being caustic about TKIs. That is, if you were referring to sonofgunung's post because that's the only reference to TKI that I've seen in this thread, and even so I didn't think he was necessarily being negative about them:



And I don't think it's just Msian elites trying to divert attention from political problems. What do you think those Indonesian guys (in the article) are doing by suddenly targeting the Malaysian national anthem? Suddenly like I said, trying to 'protect' their 'national assets'? Don't you think that is also a form of trying to divert attention from the problems at home? In this case the Malaysian Tourism Board wasn't trying to divert any attention from our political problems - it's those Indonesians that were doing so. The way I see it it was also quite disrespectful of them to do so, or at least the way they conducted themselves especially when Terang Bulan isn't even 100% Indonesian in origin. This was I must admit the main reason why I came on this thread - notice I didn't even get involved with the Bali Pendet issue. Of course it does not justify my own misstep but I'm curious as to why you did not see the other glaringly obvious side of the coin. No offence but sometimes I too wonder tanga if you have your own grudges against Malaysia, if so feel free to discuss it and let it out in MYChat instead of saying things like 'Msian elites try to divert attention' but conveniently ignoring other people doing so as well.

And thank you for the advice - I wasn't exactly trying to stoke the flame but I see how I could have dangerously come to doing so. Yes it's quite a volatile region we are living in, but sometimes we do need to address equally volatile issues too, like how we debated the race-based NEP and Malay Supremacy in MYChat. But yea a cool head is undoubtedly important. How hard it is to master that delicate touch

Erh... about the Indonesian flag, flamers often offer flamebait by accused our flag as the copy Monaco or Poland flag. The fact is Indonesian flag is derived from 14th century Majapahit royal color which is older than Poland or Monaco. The royal color concept probably the same as Orange as royal color of Netherlands, Red for English, and Blue associated with French.
Actually I've red Majapahit royal color too was derived from older origin from Kediri Kingdom. The oldest record of Red and White banner (Panji) is mentioned in Pararaton as the Pataka or Panji (battle flag) of Kediri used by Jayakatwang troops; Kebo Mundaran unit, on his raid on Singhasari Kutaraja capital and caused the death of Kertanegara and end of Singhasari. Curiously Majapahit as the successor of Singhasari uses this Kediri (their enemy) colors of battle flag as theirs.

In Javanese philosophy Red and White stands for
Red: courage and bravery (as red the color of blood associated with fighting and killing ), associated with kings, leaders, troops, warrior, warlord, ksatrya, also means worldly affair.
White: purity, holyness, spirituality; associated with holly sage, mpu, brahmans, now also associated with ulama, also means spiritual value and transcendental affair.

Contemporary musician, Gombloh also associated the color with red blood (and flesh) and white bone, essential in human body.

The formal source mentioned the Majapahit colors as the origin of Indonesian flag. And yet there's another interesting, popular, but informal interpretation also suggested that; Indonesian flag probably the adaptation or rendering of dutch flag by eliminating the bottom blue part which symbolize Dutch Monarchy (blue blood). Blue is associated with Europe, european descends or Netherlands people in Indies, which means the goal of the new republic is to liberated themself from Netherlands domination, also can be interpreted to get rid the "bule" (European) from Indies and make Indonesia for Indonesians and transfer the power back to natives. Some informal interpretation also like to connect Red and White Indonesian color with Japanese color. The color as a symbol of Pan-Asia solidarity according to Japanese propaganda back in WWII when Japanese Empire proclaimed themself as "the leader, the light, and the liberator of Asia". So that is what I've heard.

However the Netherlands and Japanese origin theory above now tends to be a case of semantic over-indulges, since the red and white flag was already adopted by Indonesian independence movement organizations as early in 1920's and 1930's, which predates the Japanese invasion and Dutch flag tearing incident (tearing the blue part) in Surabaya on top of Orange Hotel/Yamato Hotel /Hotel Majapahit.

The color orange originates from the Princely State of Orange in France where the first ruler of the Netherlands originates from



This is how the Dutch flag is used for birthdays of important members of the Royal House (Het huis van Oranje)

Lekka Lekka Pinda Pinda

Dutch Song ?

Yes indeed, but the title is "Pinda, pinda, lekka, lekka" sung by Willy Derby who was very populair in the Indies, he also toured there. It might be R.W. Supratman went to one of his shows

The song on You Tube

Its totally different... I can't sense any Indonesia Raya tunes in it...

I rememeber reading about a Western composer during Sukarno era were asked by the president to make the new arrangement of the brass-march composition of Indonesia Raya. And he said somehow Indonesia Raya has the same spirit as French La Marseillase (which later admittedly its first tunes being copied in Indonesian song: "Dari Sabang Sampai Merauke").
Same patriotic spirit, but Indonesia Raya has different tunes than La Marseillase.




I used to wonder why DKI Jakarta are so fond of orange color and consider it as the color of Jakarta.













Its used in Bajaj, Metromini, TransJakarta Bus, and Persija shirt (Jakarta soccer team).
Then my friend said it was Netherlands legacy, the remnant of Dutch color in Jakarta (Batavia), as somekind of tribute because actually Batavia were built by Dutch.

edit

Totally different ? You must be kidding, maybe you should mengkonsultasikan ke dokter spesialis Telinga Hidung Tenggorokan for an ear cleaning

The man who made a better tune of Indonesia raya was Jos Cleber, a Dutch arranger/composer

"In 1950, Jusuf Ronodipuro (then the Studio Head of Radio Republik Indonesia), requested that Cleber arrange Indonesia Raya for philharmonic orchestra, upon which Cleber began a preliminary study on the history and actual impression the anthem intended to convey, and concluded that he sensed a Marseillaise impression in Indonesia Raya. Cleber's first arrangement was subsequently recorded in RRI Studio, Central Jakarta, in early 1951, involving Cleber's orchestra and two other RRI orchestras. The initial response to the orchestration was warm and Cleber joined Ronodipuro to present the recording to President Sukarno. However, upon hearing it, Sukarno commented that the arrangement was too embellished.

Sukarno wanted Indonesia Raya to be as majestic as the Netherlands' national anthem, Wilhelmus. Wilhelmus has a slow tempo (largo), whereas Indonesia Raya was intended to have a march tempo (Tempo di marcia), which led to Cleber's initial disagreement with the president over the orchestration. He began to work on the second arrangement, and the tempo was changed to Maestoso con bravura, ("majestically and with bravura"). Sukarno liked the second arrangement better; however he thought that there should be a part in the anthem that expresses beauty, softness, and sweetness, just prior to the climactic refrain.

In the third arrangement, Cleber modified the verses right before the chorus to employ the string section, whereas the chorus itself was accompanied by the timpani, cymbal, and brass section. Sukarno considered this arrangement perfect and approved it."

Source

well CD, i know sonofgunung didn't mean anything bad with his anecdote about TKI, but the mere mention of TKI in a topic such as this basically stirs up animosity from majority of Indonesians because of the well-known fact that they are not well treated in Malaysia..

i think in a topic such as this, we should exercise self-restraint in our words and not seek to goad or tease the other side into anger and resentment

i always considered trolls to be worthless and not worth any time responding, but u and sonofgunung are far from trolls... and are just exactly what Malaysia Chat needs to uplift that miserable chat which is so full of misdirected frustrations and vainglorious crap..

anyways, sonfogunung, i know that in your long postings there are a few things u try to highlight :

1. Msians and their elites have historically come from different parts of the region, including Indonesia

2. While the elites may be trying to foster a 'unified' nationalistic fever by coming up with a Tanah Melayu concept, not many citizens will accept that nationalistic fever.. for example you. You feel different from the KL folks and know that your history is not the same as theirs.

But do you realise this is precisely the kind of thing the elites are trying to eradicate? The different identities in Malaysia. They want to make you, a Kedah malay with a strong sense of historical place, learn to embrace a new form of national identity bordering on some grandoise racial and religious leadership??? And all these ruckus with Indonesia -- will help to divert attention -- create jingoistic fever -- and foster such a 'fake' national malay muslim identity!

To me, this is a concerted effort by Malaysian elites to stay in power... it's insidious but it's happening.

In Singapore recently, we have been debating equal rights for all races under the Constitution... surprisingly LKY came up in Parliament and admitted we do not have equality under the Constitution!! What we have is the ideal to strive towards equality, but in reality, it is not equal. The constitution grants special rights to malays.. and this is an acknowledgment of the historical development of our island nation. You would think LKY would be the first to want to foster a 'national identity' of Singaporeans with equal rights... but even he, recognised how difficult that can be and will not falsify people's ethnic and historical differences in some kinda lofty Constitutional speak.

Majapahitans is correct, no similarity whatsoever between Indonesia Raya and that Dutch song.

RE Joz Cleber, he did not create anything new. Indonesia Raya already existed as a song created by Wage Rudolf Soepratman since 1928. Cleber just adapted the song to orchestra. Nothing creative there. Many works by classical composers ie Bach, Mozart, etc was adapted into specific instruments in 1800s and 1900s, but we never know who adapted these works. Their names were not known since they are not the creator of these songs.

You might have missed something, Jos Cleber was only asked to make something better of the tune that was adopted as national anthem, that's what he did. It it's not about creating but make something out of a lousy creation. Not everybody has a talent you know (or don't ). Nowadays nobody knows how the original "Indonesia Raya" sounded like.

Malaysia Anthem Furor Hits Wrong Note, Says Indonesian Expert





Candra Malik


September 02, 2009



Solo. Oops! We did it again. Moral indignation over Malaysia’s alleged use of an Indonesian song for its national anthem appears — rather embarrassingly — to have been misplaced, according to a leading Indonesian musician and artist, Remy Sylado.

The episode follows a recent outpouring of anger — including a heated protest outside the Malaysian Embassy in Jakarta on Tuesday — over Malaysia’s supposed theft of the Balinese pendet dance to promote itself in a television advertisement.

The Singapore office of cable television station, Discovery Channel, however, quickly acknowledged that it was responsible for mistakenly featuring the dance in a promotion for its documentary program, “Enigmatic Malaysia.”

Sylado, speaking in Jakarta on Wednesday, said the so-called Indonesian song “ Terang Bulan ” (“Moonlight”) was actually an adaptation of “La Rosalie,” which was composed in the 19th century by Pierre-Jean de Beranger of Francey.

Citing a Dutch historical text on national anthems, Sylado said the song became popular in the former French colony of the Seychelles and arrived in the Malay archipelago at the turn of the 20th century, where it was eventually used as the basis for Malaysia’s anthem, “ Negaraku ” (“My Country”).

“It is written clearly that ‘Negaraku,’ the Malaysian anthem, is adapted from Pierre-Jean de Beranger’s song. Not from ‘Terang Bulan,’ ” Sylado said.

He said the adaptation of “La Rosalie” to “Negaraku” had a long evolution. In 1888, during British rule of the Federated Malay States, the lyrics were rewritten and localized to “God Save the Sultan” by Raja Mansur, the eldest son of Sultan Abdullah Muhammad Shah II Habibullah of Perak.

The song was first performed formally during the sultan’s royal visit to England, where the song was presented as the Perak state anthem.

Sylado said this version of history had long been recognized by the Malaysian authorities and was used in the nation’s history books. He said that before declaring independence in 1957, Malaysia’s first prime minister, Tunku Abdul Rahman, decided to use a revised version of Perak’s state anthem as the national anthem.

“If the Indonesian government wants to sue Malaysia for copying ‘Terang Bulan,’ it would be a bad move,” Sylado said. “I’m concerned there will be a countersuit for using bahasa Indonesia , which is adapted from Malay and is indeed a part of Malaysia.”

In the wake of growing anger toward Malaysia over the pendet furor and other cross-straits issues, such as abuse of Indonesian migrant workers and simmering territorial disputes, Ruktiningsih, an executive from Solo-based state recording company Lokananta, had recently claimed “Negaraku” was suspiciously similar to “Terang Bulan.”

He claimed that “Terang Bulan” was written by the Bandung Ensemble and recorded by Lokananta in March 1956 — a year before Malaysia announced its anthem.

Ruktiningsih said the song was one of 49 recorded by national radio station RRI on the orders of then-President Sukarno. The songs were later made into a recording by Lokananta.



Sources : http://thejakartaglobe.com/