I am still perplexed by Japan’s soon-to-be ruling party’s desire to have a more independent relationship with the USA whilst moving towards Asia. A move towards Asia implies a move towards diplomatic relations with China: a country that has historically been antagonistic towards Japan. Additionally, the fact remains that the USA will remain the most politically, economically, and (if necessary) militarily influential nation in Asia for at LEAST the next 100 years. Therefore, it begs the question, why would Japan move away from a) their closest ally and b) the most formidable force in Asia? Moreover, I would think that Japan’s new left-centered political party would take advantage of the fact that the USA’s current administration is left-centered and would thus have a similar political agenda. Especially since there is a relatively high probability that if the USA’s political climate does not change soon, there will be a strong move towards the right-centered political party within the coming years. An insider’s perspective on the Japanese people’s sentiment would be greatly appreciated.

19th century = Europe
20th century = North America
21th century = Asia

I would disagree with your assessment of US military capabilities. While there's very little doubt in my mind that the USA will remain the global dominant military for the forseeable future, it is still half way around the world to Asia, where China's influence is steadily rising. While China will not be able to challenge the USA in a military fashion in other parts of the world, in it's own neighbourhood it's more difficult to say.

I believe China already over took US as Japan's largest trading partner.

And it's not correct to say that China has been historically antagonistic with respect to Japan, it's only in recent history that they've had so much conflicts and I would say it's due to the heavily skewed balance of power. I'm aware of 3 major wars between China and Japan through the thousands of years of their history as neighbours.. it's not inamicable at all.
(and really USA and China were on the same side during that recent war with Japan, so technically there's just as much historical antagonism in Sino-Japanese relations as there are in US-Japanese relations)

i disagree with your post, asian brothers must unit and fight against westen countries and usa. you must be a white dude to think like that.

I like how westerners like to separate the Asian countries.


Take a look, since Chinas growing and starting to get a LOT of money, they will begin to consume. Japan happens to export the most electronics and cars out there. So obviously, Japan would definitely strike a deal with China for trade. Japans economy is going down, Chinas economy is booming.

That move was obvious.

I also hate how people keep citing historical references to their past wars and disagreements. Look at Germany now, do all the countries that border it try to stomp it out of existance? Or place embargoes on them? Nope. So why should China hold a grudge against Japan?

There was a time in history where Japanese Emperors and Korean Kings gave the Chinese Emperor treasure and tribute - not out of fear, not out of trade, but it was simply out of respect.

Go east asian union!

asian economic union FTW!! lol

I hope ASEAN + 3 leads to that.

It would take too long to put it all down for you. But if your interested, just read a lot of the threads here in J chat to update yourself on how a lot of us feel. There is no mystery why Japan is turning to China and Asia while turning away from the U.S.

I don't know where you get your numbers from, but from economic projections made by Princeton University Economics professor Jeffery D. Sachs, China is supposed to overtake the United States economically in the next 3 decades (around 2025 to 2035). It also helps that China holds the trump card in the form of US treasury bills. Almost a trillion dollars worth, and continuously growing.

Technologically, it might be worse for the United States. The rate of growth of Chinese technological growth is outpacing the United States. If such projections hold, China should technologically surpass the United States earlier than they do economically.

Militarily? That's a different story. I can't really judge what will happen militarily. But I do know that China is adopting newer technology militarily at a faster rate than the US is. The backbone of the US military is its aircraft carriers, and sorry to say, the Chinese possess defensive capabilities that can take out, if not sink, US aircraft carriers. It's easier to build carrier-killing weapons than it is building carriers.

I'm not saying this to say that China is better than the US. Far from it. The US is technologically, economically, militarily, and even politically superior currently. I just disagree with your statement about US being better for another 100 years, when all pertinent data suggests China overtaking the US in the next 3 decades.

It might be smart for Japan to re-assess its alignment in light of this. Not rejecting the US outright, but at least building closer ties to the PRC and the ROK.

"Japan's opposition leader Yukio Hatoyama has hailed an election "revolution", with exit polls suggesting a massive win for his party."

bbc reports

It's looks like its official now.. can't believe i'm the first to post this.

Finally, now they must keep their word.

EVERYTHING in the quote above is skewed at best and completely false at worst. Firstly, I have been to China on several occasions and I can tell you that aside from Beijing and Shanghai (the Chinese government’s fruitless attempt to show the world their new-found prosperity), it is a 3rd-world (underdeveloped) country where its citizens barely manage to put food on the table let alone by any discretionary products. Secondly, the only reason that China's economic numbers have been good recently is due to their 560B stimulus that they put into construction projects that had been previously halted because there is no demand. Thus, once this stimulus money had been depleted and assuming that the USA (and the West) has not resolved its current economic crises, China will inevitably suffer an insurmountable blow to its economy that could potentially lead to social unrest. Thirdly, the United States is the only country in the world that has NEVER renounced its debt. Additionally, 1T in t-bills is only ~7% of the USA’s GDP (14T) , so if China wants to convert all its t-bills in one day and no longer finance the USA’s debt, so be it , it would literally be economic suicide for China. I also find it interesting how our treasury auctions sell-out in a matter of minutes whereas China and other countries’ auctions fail numerous times before they sell (usually weeks later). Fourthly, I am not trying to be racist but when you look at history, the greatest civilizations have all been in the West (Greeks, Romans, Persia, Babylonians, etc) and Asian civilizations have either been conquered, defeated, or conceded to the West in the form of economic/political treaties (i.e., we’re not going to invade you but we need your medicines, jewels, glassware, and silk at a very affordable rate). Therefore, westerners have been historically the rulers, in one form or another, of the world and I do not see ANY Asian country altering this very natural hierarchy (despite how much you dispute or grumble) or being the leading civilization of the world any sooner than Latin America ( I would say Africa but that is unfathomable). Thus, if Japan wants to move away from the USA that is fine but just don’t expect the USA to help you out when China sends a fleet of nuclear submarines to your shores demanding your women because there’s like 100M frustrated single men in China that cannot get any women.

Maybe Japan new party knows something that you don't know, or see something that you don't see.

Do you think that will change america's views of asian americans? Just curious.

lol.. sounds angry and jealous

well why don't we have this discussion again in a few decades

That, there, is the problem.

Japanese aren't Westerners. They tried to be, in the past, but were never accepted, and still aren't. Western arrogance injures human dignity in believing that it is good and natural for others to be ruled by the West, while in truth, nobody wants such an imposition. No more did Africans desire to be perpetual slaves than Asians desire to be perpetual servants. Today, Africa welcomes China despite its neo-colonial practices there simply because China isn't white. By contrast, despite the substantial aid the West gives to Africa, the continent is lost to them - such is the strength of a historical wrong. And it will be no different in the Middle-East. Western power there, too, will fall, and when it does, the Muslim world won't be looking for its return.

Great civilizations are awesome - so long as they belong to you. But Western civilization has never belonged to the world. It has always been racially exclusive. Periods of Western dominance are periods of imperial oppression for everyone else. Consequently, there is little good will for Western rule in most parts of the world, and this argument won't avail you. As for the permanence of Western power - get real. What goes up, also comes down. Rome was the greatest empire of its age. But after its fall, Europe spent a thousand years barely fending off the Muslims and almost being conquered by the Mongols. Depending on the US to save the West is unrealistic, besides. The US is heading towards multi-culturalism, and will likely soon be more absorbed with domestic issues than international ones.

I think the one who's skewed and completely delusional is you. First, your anecdotal evidence carries a weight of exactly zero. I also doubt that you have ever been to Asia. Second, if you think China's numbers are only because of the economic stimulus, you are absolutely wrong. Because China has been growing for the last 30 years. Where was their stimulus then?
Thirdly, you're wrong about the US being the only country ever to not renounce its debt. A simple google will tell you that.
Fourth, you're not being racist, just ignorant.

Persians and Babylonians are not 'Western'. They're Middle eastern. Mongols have conquered europe. Huns have conquered europe (incidentally, after they've been beaten by China). Europeans have not even started to engage, much less conquer Asians until way after the 17th century, when a stable and established scientific community and open thinking has allowed western scientific thought to flourish and further develop asian technology for war(think gunpowder). Now that Asia also has an established scientific and technological base, they can simply catch up. European 'superiority' has never been anything but an early headstart at the scientific way of thinking, and a non-myopic view at civilization development. Also, For 1600 years of the last 2000, the areas with the highest GDP have been in Asia. Europe didn't come anywhere close. You're selectively taking the history of the last 200 years and applying and pretending that will be the case forever. The west is reaping the last remaining benefits of the headstart on the industrial revolution. When everyone's on an even playground, and the west no longer has the chips stacked in its favor, prepare for a return to historical norms. Here's a hint. The center of the new norm is not Europe.

That said, a united and prosperous Asia will benefit EVERYONE. Including US and Europe. Unless the west plans to conquer Asia and dominate militarily, there's really no reason for anyone in the West to be alarmed or concerned. The latter scenario's completely moot anyhow, since the world is now nuclearized, and it's now impossible for any nation to conquer any nuclear capable nation without eating a couple of nukes in return.

Lastly, the fact that you're writing this betrays a certain irrational fear of Asia's rise, and you're desperately trying to hide that by white supremacist talk. As a poster above has noted: Let's have this conversation again in a couple of years and see. Time is the ultimate proof.

China's national IQ is superior to that of the United States even though it is still a developing country. China's innovation capabilities in terms of human resources exclusively far surpass that of the United States and Europe combined. It is delusional to think otherwise: on average Chinese people have a higher IQ. Given that humans share the same brain structure, it is likely that Chinese people surpasses Westerners in any portion of the Bell Curve in any intellectual aspect, whether it is verbal intelligence, or visuo-spatial.

And some people wonder why I don't like the Eurocentric world? --; This is generally the reason why. I just hope Korea will cooperate with China and Japan despite a rocky relationship.

The fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority of Chinese people are in poverty. While Americans and Europeans enjoy the highest standards of living in the world. Our languages, our culture, and simply our civilization has in essence beaten out yours. That's why your speaking English. That's why you're on the internet. That's why Asians are begging to be allowed into European orchestra's, our into American schools.


If you guys were so great and smart as you claim, you wouldn't have been our colonies or be trying to sneak into our countries in cargo contaienrs.

The very unsophisticated idiot who started the thread obviously is delusional, unless he is just a troll. Anyway, it is obvious that East Asians have more intellectually capable individuals than Westerners, whether in absolute or relative terms. The funny thing is that the fact that East Asians do have higher verbal and mathematical aptitudes innately is starting to naturally surface before everyone's eyes, despite decades of Western propaganda claiming otherwise.

Look at those narrow-headed idiots flocking into this thread with their inferiority complex! They did not yet accept the obvious truth, which is that intelligence is not a matter of race per se, but race is correlated with intelligence, albeit very weakly and only under a certain classification. They seem they can't accept the fact certain people are innately above them! They can't accept it! Westerners are unlike us, Far Easterners, they can't content themselves with the idea that they occupy a certain rank in society! They can't accept the “being a mere pawn in a chessboard”, this idea is absolutely unacceptable to them! They don't want to be put in the front, as mediocre a pawn as the rest. They need to think of themselves as something “above” their own true selves. This makes them quite pathetic too ironically. We must have the look of contempt while gazing at those pathetic beings.

I only mentioned Persia and Babylon due to the fact that they conquered Asia. The Mongols never conquered Europe, although their empire did extend into Russia and EASTERN Europe. The Huns’ emperors were of Turkish descent and did not manage to extend into most of Western Europe. As far as the preposterous claim that China’s IQ is higher than its US counterparts’, research studies have shown that Asian-Americans tend to score higher on IQ tests that test one’s crystallized knowledge (AKA knowledge acquired from school) but not higher on Raven's Progressive Matrices which test one’s fluid intelligence (AKA innate intelligence). I find it fascinating how Asians as a whole, (however Chinese in particular) generally have an inferiority-complex: you know that you are treated at least to some degree as inferior to Westerners and thus you perpetuate this belief that you will (somehow one-day, because you cannot say anything at this time without appearing foolish) eventually overcome your historic Western oppression. However, it is absurd to think that the USA will somehow fall despite being so economically/technologically advanced just as it is absurd to think that the West will actually physically conquer Asia (again). No, we live in another era where globalization does not permit such primitive undertakings, yet I can assure you that the USA/the West will remain in power as that is the way it has been throughout most of history. Furthermore, any economic growth in Asia is highly (if not exclusively) contingent on Western consumers’ discretionary consumption which thus requires that Asian countries (with the exception of Japan) retain a high proportion of lower-class citizens in order to be able to produce goods inexpensively. Thus, even if one day Asia does succeed in surpassing the West, the majority of its population will reap minimal benefits as those in power will certainly retain power and consequently all of the wealth. Lastly, if Asians are genuinely skeptical of the USA’s/ the West’s influence/power, why is it that I get treated significantly better than Asian’s whenever I visit countries in Asia (Japan, Thailand, China, Vietnam, S. Korea, Philippines, etc) merely because I have light skin, blonde hair, and blue eyes? Furthermore, why is it that Asian countries attempt to emulate the USA’s infrastructure, music, fashion, media, etc?

You got the facts wrong. In fact, East Asians are the ones who consistently score above other groups in the Raven Progressive Matrices.

So what if many Chinese are in poverty now, YOU don't plan on helping anyway. Besides, if China continues the good progress that its been making, and we Asian start to really work together( Like this election shows we can if we really shout it out ) Find was to work with each other so we mutually benefit. Then I see computers and cellphones in the remotest villages all over China. That's what all of us Asians want. We all want to prosper. But if we stand alone, we're weak, BUT IF WE STAND TOGETHER WE ARE STRONG.

So you white people keep talking your arrogant talk, but go tell it to the Europeans now, because we are not interested in hearing it anymore.

uh.. your "most of history" lasted like 200 years.. Persia and Babylon didn't conquer Asia... they ARE central Asian. lol and you can't say they're western just cuz they supposedly "conquored asia" in your imagination. if Persia and Babylon are western then i guess you'd have to say Iraq and Iran are like European.. I don't they'd like that inclusion considering how you're fu-king them over right now.

no US will probably not fall but there is a strong drive in Asia to rise above it.

As the Chinese economy develops, it's middle class will grow and consumer power will grow and will become less dependant on the US, in fact it was able to manage economic growth despite the huge drop in US consumption.

Asians wnating to go to western orchestras, US schools, your good treatment are all results of current western dominance and is no evidence that this trend will continue.

And again, we're confident in our futures so we can say let the future be the proof for this argument, if you wern't so insecure then you'd be able to say the same instead of throwing a racist tantrum.

Why do you think that Western consumers will be able consume indefinitely when Western countries are running huge trade deficits with the rest of the world? The current crisis is largely a result of Western over-consumption. It is only the West's control of key resources and trade routes, as well as the continued dominance of the dollar system, that allows Western countries to maintain their high standards of living. But there is no guarantee that this control will last forever. In fact, it might already be slipping, which is partly why America is increasingly look to "engage" other countries in its bid to maintain its position - a classic Byzantine, rather than Roman, move, if you want a historical comparison.

niceguy sounds like that fu-king racist d!ck visitorq who me and Chiuchimu ran out of here and got banned, saying European/white supremacist $hit and saying we Japanese want to be European;

Very amusing. For your information, China and Japan never did became colonies of the west. However, the Huns and Mongols did conquered and enslaved a sizable portions of Europe. That and not to mention your humiliating defeat at hands of the Muslims and Ottoman Turks. Also, the "overwhelming majority of Chinese people" are not in poverty. In fact, there plenty of wealthy Chinese in the world. For example, China has the second most amount of total billionaires in their national border.

I can assure you that my comments are not intentionally provocative and/or racially demeaning (racist). However, I am simply stating what the reality is and has been (“the way things are”). If you want to talk deficits, why don’t you look at Japan’s approximate public debt of 170% GDP (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ja.html).

do you mean they ar going to attack any country in asia? I kind of thought that the north korea crisis and american journalists incident were meant to provoked the north korea, but look like so far they have failed. what other way are they going to use to escalate conflicts among asia countries?

“overwhelming majority of Chinese people”, means the majority of the population (X>50%). So, yes, the majority of the population does live in poverty or at least what would be considered impoverished in the United States. By the way, which country is it that has the most billionaires in the world?

It is amazing to me that white people always love to brag about their glorious achievements, but conveniently neglect to mention all their embarassing plunders. It's these type of arrogancy that ire me. Like I said, these are the people who gave us WW1, WW2, African slaves, annihilation of Pre-Columbian America, Jewish Holocaust, the Crusades, the seventy years' war, and lets not forget the hundred years' war, which actually lasted more than 100 years mind you. Also, taking advantage of other people like a true con artist and manipulative swindler such as the poor case of "British India" is not something to be proud of at all whatsoever. I mean come on, Qing Dynasty China was providing Britain with valuable commodities such as tea, porcelain, spices and silk, while Britain sends only opium AKA "poison" in return. This is exactly why if Christianity was true then God would smite the Eurocentric world in a heartbeat.

Engage as in establish cooperative relations with. To achieve their ends, the Romans of old simply sent their legions. The Byzantines, however, had to play the diplomacy game. Similarly, European empires used to be able to just send their legions. No longer. America is still able to do this, as we saw in the Middle-East, but with the rise of Obama, even America is edging towards Byzantine tactics.

By American and European standard then only 12% or somewhere along that line of the China can be considered to be impoverished. This is hardly an "overwhelming majority". Only America has more billionaires than China, that mean all of the European countries plus all the other "whites" such as Canada, Australia, and Russia is of no contest. If European supremacy was true then China would not be ahead of any "white countries" at all. =P

We all know what happened to the Byzantine Empire after that. They got conquered by the "Asiatic" Ottoman Turks because their tactics no longer to held their enemies at bay. Don't get me wrong because they had a good run fending off the Muslims but in the end, the "Byzantine Empire" was gradually Perso-Islamized, throwing out its Hellenistic culture. Greek civillization (which was the birthmother of Western culture) was at its eclipsing nadir and never eventually recover to this day. The Ottoman Empire was, in many respects, an Islamic successor to the Eastern Roman whose greatness is but merely a shadow of an ancient regime.

Middle east is a playground for western civilization as of today. Including Turkey.

You mean the playground of doom and despair, destruction and terror? Right, maybe this is the reason for their instability. Why can't the Franks learn that their unwanted affairs with the Islamic World will only end in epic failure? ^^;

Lets just say America and Europe ain't seen what the power of "Allah" fully just yet... I predict that the Muslim World will certainly play no small role in "how it all went wrong".

Was China not brought to it's knee's in both the Opium wars? And are you saying British rule over Hong Kong until quite recently was a figment of our imagination? And yes most Chinese are in poverty. Having a few billionaires in a country over at least 1.2 billion does not mean anything. Are you denying that most Chinese work in sweat shops, or are dirt poor in the interior provinces.

haha you've never been to china have you....opium wars was just that, a "war", no western colonization was there (as much as they tried). Hong kong was never really colonized, the british basically let the people manage themselves.

lol, keep it up guy. You're the finest example of why the US is falling behind. The education system is falling apart. I mean, just look at the way you write: weak factual support, false premises, wrong word choice etc (pssst. Huns were not of Turkish descent. Turkey didn't exist then. pass it on.)

I dunno man, looks to me like the only one who has an inferiority complex here is the person that constantly claims to be of a superior race. BTW, white people don't get treated better in asia. The only people who perpetuate that stereotype are insecure white people, and insecure asians trying to rouse support for ethnic nationalism. You get treated differently, like a novelty. nothing more, nothing less. You saying this has just validated my suspicion that you have never been to Asia.

Anyhow, much love man, keep writing and entertain us. Don't let the facts get in your way!

Ok, we're not denying that the west is currently dominating in international affairs, nor are we denying that the west has made many great contributions to humanity.. all we're saying is that times are changing, and people are re-alligning their diplomatic strategies accordingly.

you don't have to spaz so much.

You can characterize it either as western overconsumption or asian overproduction. They're the same phenomenon, 2 sides of the same coin. Either case, it's gonna have to correct. The correction will occur through the relative depreciation of the US dollar, or the relative appreciation of the Asian currencies. In fact, you've already seen it partially in this crisis when the Yen/Dollar exchange rate went from 112 yen/dollar to 90+ yen/dollar (20% depreciation in a year). It is indeed the dominance of the dollar system that has allowed the US to avoid bankruptcy thus far, but I think cracks have begun to appear in the international monetary regime. People already got their triggers on the 'sell' button for US treasuries, all they need is a crisis to confirm their fears, and a currency to fall back on. The time is not yet mature, however. It'll take at least another 5 years. But the long term trend is clear.

As far as the key resources and trade routes go.... I dunno about that. Key resources are oil and minerals. The US does not have control over these resources. Nations such as Canada, Venezuela, Australia does. Trade routes.... there's no more trade routes in the modern world. It's been replaced by the WTO. The US does not control the WTO.

The moral of the story is this: the US can no longer unilaterally impose its will on others. Most (including most Europeans) will say that's a good thing. Economic and Political realities make it too costly for the US to exert its hegemony again. However, make no mistake, a crashing US does no one any good. Not to China, not to Japan, not to Europe. However, a world in which the US gradually declines, while the Asian nations gradually rise and take their fair share of the power RESPONSIBLY, would be healthier for everyone in the longer term. The US consumer simply can't afford to police the world anymore. They need to look inward and take care of their own.

If current trends continue, your analysis is apt. There are those, like baal, who hope for a Western rebirth. This would require a shake-up of the international system, however, so I'm skeptical that it'll happen until the West declines below a certain point. Till then, the world will probably keep chugging along as it does now. And make no mistake, the West does still control the key resources and trade routes of the world. The West does not just refer to the US but the economic, political, and cultural bloc that corresponds roughly to the spread of Western peoples. This includes Australia and Canada.

Usually rebirth only happens after going through a huge political upheaval, usually fragmentation and an all out civil war. Just like Europe's dark age, Japan's warring states + onin war, or china's 3 kingdoms war + 16 kingdoms war.

^ and WWII for the rise of the USA

that's not reality, you're a white supremacist @$$hole, why are you here in the first place? looking for women like the lot of you are?

the 170% you're talking is public debt, or what the Japanese gov owes to it's own people.

on the other hand the USA leads the world in external debt at a total of nearly 14 trillion dollars.. 95% of GDP
per capita that means each American is in debt with over 42,000 dollars, compared to little over 4,500 for each Japanese.

Comparatively ofcourse Switzerland has a external debt of ~440% of GDP... spread around that means per capita the debt is ~174,000.
all in US dollars btw.

wiki rank on external debt sourced from CIA WFB

What do you exactly mean. The same old Royal families run this hell hole of a planet.

I would certainly say Japan is. though, China did get Rockefeller and Rothschild funding to supplant Mao into power. This was done in the 20th century. A big important century.

Shut up, you fu-king idiot. You are a total embarrassment.