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tangawizi
QUOTE
Why I threw the shoe
I am no hero. I just acted as an Iraqi who witnessed the pain and bloodshed of too many innocents

I am free. But my country is still a prisoner of war. There has been a lot of talk about the action and about the person who took it, and about the hero and the heroic act, and the symbol and the symbolic act. But, simply, I answer: what compelled me to act is the injustice that befell my people, and how the occupation wanted to humiliate my homeland by putting it under its boot.

Over recent years, more than a million martyrs have fallen by the bullets of the occupation and Iraq is now filled with more than five million orphans, a million widows and hundreds of thousands of maimed. Many millions are homeless inside and outside the country.

We used to be a nation in which the Arab would share with the Turkman and the Kurd and the Assyrian and the Sabean and the Yazid his daily bread. And the Shia would pray with the Sunni in one line. And the Muslim would celebrate with the Christian the birthday of Christ. This despite the fact that we shared hunger under sanctions for more than a decade.

Our patience and our solidarity did not make us forget the oppression. But the invasion divided brother from brother, neighbour from neighbour. It turned our homes into funeral tents.

I am not a hero. But I have a point of view. I have a stance. It humiliated me to see my country humiliated; and to see my Baghdad burned, my people killed. Thousands of tragic pictures remained in my head, pushing me towards the path of confrontation. The scandal of Abu Ghraib. The massacre of Falluja, Najaf, Haditha, Sadr City, Basra, Diyala, Mosul, Tal Afar, and every inch of our wounded land. I travelled through my burning land and saw with my own eyes the pain of the victims, and heard with my own ears the screams of the orphans and the bereaved. And a feeling of shame haunted me like an ugly name because I was powerless.

As soon as I finished my professional duties in reporting the daily tragedies, while I washed away the remains of the debris of the ruined Iraqi houses, or the blood that stained my clothes, I would clench my teeth and make a pledge to our victims, a pledge of vengeance.

The opportunity came, and I took it.

I took it out of loyalty to every drop of innocent blood that has been shed through the occupation or because of it, every scream of a bereaved mother, every moan of an orphan, the sorrow of a rape victim, the teardrop of an orphan.

I say to those who reproach me: do you know how many broken homes that shoe which I threw had entered? How many times it had trodden over the blood of innocent victims? Maybe that shoe was the appropriate response when all values were violated.

When I threw the shoe in the face of the criminal, George Bush, I wanted to express my rejection of his lies, his occupation of my country, my rejection of his killing my people. My rejection of his plundering the wealth of my country, and destroying its infrastructure. And casting out its sons into a diaspora.

If I have wronged journalism without intention, because of the professional embarrassment I caused the establishment, I apologise. All that I meant to do was express with a living conscience the feelings of a citizen who sees his homeland desecrated every day. The professionalism mourned by some under the auspices of the occupation should not have a voice louder than the voice of patriotism. And if patriotism needs to speak out, then professionalism should be allied with it.

I didn't do this so my name would enter history or for material gains. All I wanted was to defend my country.

Muntazer al-Zaidi is an Iraqi reporter who was freed this week after serving nine months in prison for throwing his shoe at former US president George Bush at a press conference. This edited statement was translated by McClatchy Newspapers correspondent Sahar Issa www.mcclatchydc.com



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flipcombatmedic
I wonder why this hero didn't throw his shoes at Saddam? Or at the insurgents killing innocents?

What a hero! A brave man. That's defending your country for sure. If anything you showed how low class Iraqis can be.
tangawizi
because SAddam and the insurgents never made themselves out to be the leader of the Free World, that's why... everyone knows they are tyrants and bigots... but GWB??? he's an a.ss who's sacrificed thousands of American and Iraqi lives unnecessarily and u know it, flip!
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Sep 27 2009, 01:08 AM) *
because SAddam and the insurgents never made themselves out to be the leader of the Free World, that's why... everyone knows they are tyrants and bigots... but GWB??? he's an a.ss who's sacrificed thousands of American and Iraqi lives unnecessarily and u know it, flip!

What the hell is that have to do with being the leader of the free world or not, or he made himself to be? The guy simply said he was 'defending' his country...but where was our fearless hero when these folks, Saddam who raped his country for decades, and the insurgents who'd been killing more iraqis themselves than Americans, to defend it?

The truth is the f@g knows that he couldn't fu-k with either one without finding himself rotting on a street corner with a gag in his mouth, rope on his wrist and a bullet on the back of his head had he even tried. On GWB? He fricking well knows nothing is going to happen to him, there's enough hippies in America to make sure of that.
tangawizi
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 27 2009, 09:02 AM) *
What the hell is that have to do with being the leader of the free world or not, or he made himself to be? The guy simply said he was 'defending' his country...but where was our fearless hero when these folks, Saddam who raped his country for decades, and the insurgents who'd been killing more iraqis themselves than Americans, to defend it?


Oh so Saddam raped his country for decades... howabout the others like Mugabe... why don't u look at your own deep-seated hypocrisy and puke it out?

QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 27 2009, 09:02 AM) *
The truth is the f@g knows that he couldn't fu-k with either one without finding himself rotting on a street corner with a gag in his mouth, rope on his wrist and a bullet on the back of his head had he even tried.


Millions of people still live under tyrants and police states, why don't they fu-ken ask the Americans to go and save their lives from their rogue leaderships????


QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 27 2009, 09:02 AM) *
On GWB? He fricking well knows nothing is going to happen to him, there's enough hippies in America to make sure of that.


More like there's enough war-mongrels like u who would make sure of that...
gambit
The man is no fool. If he even sneered at Saddam, let alone throw his shoes, he would have receive one half of what he claimed not to seek: notoriety. But since he threw his shoes at the one man -- George Bush -- that he knew would do nothing, he now has both: notoriety and material gains as evident by offers of employment, houses and even women. He should be applauded for the truth: his opportunism.
pun187
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 26 2009, 10:24 PM) *
I wonder why this hero didn't throw his shoes at Saddam? Or at the insurgents killing innocents?

What a hero! A brave man. That's defending your country for sure. If anything you showed how low class Iraqis can be.

Maybe because he didn't have that much hatred for Saddam? Saddam was bad for the Kurds, yeah. But at least he was good to his own people.
Under Saddam Iraqis at least had running water, food, electricity and they could walk on the streets without fearing of being killed as soon as they set foot outside their homes. You folks made Saddam seem "badder" than he actually was, just like you did with Idi Amin after he turned his back on Israel. From one day to another he became from a "friend" to a maniac who kept the heads of his opponents in his fridge. laugh.gif

And don't act like they didn't do anything to Al-Zaidi after the incident. They started torturing him right after they dragged him out of the hall.
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Sep 27 2009, 02:58 AM) *
Oh so Saddam raped his country for decades... howabout the others like Mugabe... why don't u look at your own deep-seated hypocrisy and puke it out?



Millions of people still live under tyrants and police states, why don't they fu-ken ask the Americans to go and save their lives from their rogue leaderships????




More like there's enough war-mongrels like u who would make sure of that...

First of all what the hell does Mugabe or other rogue states have to do with this conversation? Isn't that the job of your employer the UN? (LOL) Hypocrisy on what?

War mongrels? LOL. People like you who don't know war, who haven't been in there, who haven't eaten on mud and dirt, who haven't seen real blood spilled on your boots, who haven't heard how bombs blow up, think us who'd been there like it. Hell fu-king no. It's the goddamn opposite. And just because I said the truth about it doesn't mean you have to call me names simply for my job. You don't know me, and argue me on my argument not on your judgment on me because what I do for a living. lol.

You just dislike Bush and you're blinded by your politics to admit that this opportunistic coward had a boost in his career not on his professionalism but on his shenaniganistic stunt...stunt that you and the rest of your friends who are politically blinded by politics to look between the lines, that this is not black and white, that not all who's threw a shoe at Bush is a hero because and just because you don't like Bush.

I don't like Bush, I don't like war, I don't like Mugabe or Saddam,...but I don't think this nigga is a hero either. LOL. This isn't black and white.
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (pun187 @ Sep 27 2009, 04:22 AM) *
Maybe because he didn't have that much hatred for Saddam? Saddam was bad for the Kurds, yeah. But at least he was good to his own people.
Under Saddam Iraqis at least had running water, food, electricity and they could walk on the streets without fearing of being killed as soon as they set foot outside their homes. You folks made Saddam seem "badder" than he actually was, just like you did with Idi Amin after he turned his back on Israel. From one day to another he became from a "friend" to a maniac who kept the heads of his opponents in his fridge. laugh.gif

And don't act like they didn't do anything to Al-Zaidi after the incident. They started torturing him right after they dragged him out of the hall.

Sure. LOL. "You did" I like how people automatically set you guilty by being American, like Americans all had a big meeting on who to 'demonize' for the day. It's like saying "you people blew up the twin towers" to an Afghan. And sure, 'we' only dislike Amin only for his outspokenness against Israel, it has nothing (NOTHING at all) to do with his burgeoining racist and radical militarization and nothing at all with his turning to Gaddafi (speaking of which was on the UN's stage talking about fish flu for an hour and half LOL) and the USSR. It's has nothing to do with that. It's only because of Israel and because we're only concerned about Israel.

And torture? Of course I knew he was 'tortured'. But not the Saddam kind of torture, where you find your baby splattered on the wall or you have your vagina penetrated with hot candles...and eventually a 9 millimeter round on the back of your skull. The fact that he's alive and he's a 'hero' of hippies who hate Bush is the a living statement of that.
tangawizi
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 27 2009, 11:37 AM) *
I don't like Bush, I don't like war, I don't like Mugabe or Saddam,...but I don't think this nigga is a hero either. LOL. This isn't black and white.


Shoe throwing is the ultimate insult in Iraqi culture. The guy became an overnight icon for his people, not for anti-Saddam nor anti-muslim stance. He could probably be pro-Saddam and pro-islamic republic by all accounts.

The problem with you is that you can't seem to accept that you are in a war where the IRAQIS DIDN'T WANT YOU THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That is the biggest f.uck-up. Not Saddam, nor the insurgents. But the histrionic self-deluded heroes amongst you that was the problem. The shoe throwing is an insult you can't stomach obviously! embarassedlaugh.gif
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Sep 27 2009, 05:33 AM) *
Shoe throwing is the ultimate insult in Iraqi culture. The guy became an overnight icon for his people, not for anti-Saddam nor anti-muslim stance. He could probably be pro-Saddam and pro-islamic republic by all accounts.

The problem with you is that you can't seem to accept that you are in a war where the IRAQIS DIDN'T WANT YOU THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That is the biggest f.uck-up. Not Saddam, nor the insurgents. But the histrionic self-deluded heroes amongst you that was the problem. The shoe throwing is an insult you can't stomach obviously! embarassedlaugh.gif


Really? Are you so blinded by your distaste for Bush that you can't see
that this man did nothing brave or meant a hill of beans?

The Iraqi's may have not wanted the US there in the first place
But that tune changed very quickly when Saddam was caught and the Iraqis started
seeing the light at the end of this dark tunnel that they lived in for so many years.

Situations change ... they are dynamic
What once was a big f.uck up .. is now changing into the best thing to happen for the Iraqi people.
This will be decided by the future of the Iraqi people.
We know what their past was like .. let us look now at the bright future they now can have.

Thinking that a shoe thrown at GW Bush is going to mean anything twenty years from now
is short sighted. The Iraqi people will have a new gov't that will have the opportunity
to do more for the people of Iraq than at anytime in recent history of Iraq. This will mean
more than a shoe.

You can hate me all you want ... but if I push you and motivate you to be better than you are today
then the improvements will out last the hatred???
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Sep 27 2009, 05:33 AM) *
Shoe throwing is the ultimate insult in Iraqi culture. The guy became an overnight icon for his people, not for anti-Saddam nor anti-muslim stance. He could probably be pro-Saddam and pro-islamic republic by all accounts.

The problem with you is that you can't seem to accept that you are in a war where the IRAQIS DIDN'T WANT YOU THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

That is the biggest f.uck-up. Not Saddam, nor the insurgents. But the histrionic self-deluded heroes amongst you that was the problem. The shoe throwing is an insult you can't stomach obviously! embarassedlaugh.gif

What you can't accept is the fact that you don't like Bush so you justify tyrants and murderers like him, and insurgency that are themselves hapless killers so you can make your enemy Bush look worse than he is. You are driven and driven by politics only, not by higher morality because you can't seem to think that a man a tyrant and a mass murderer can't be the problem simply because you don't like American foreign policy.

And that you would venerate any opportunistic shenanigan with little class to heroic status simply and simply because he threw shoes at Bush. And insult I can't stomach? LOL. I could care less about Bush, I actually thought it was funny and the videos they made to remix it was hilarious...but it doesn't mean I think this guy is a hero. That is what you can't seem to stomach. And the fact that I don't like Bush either, that to your black and white mind is something trivial.
mndeg
the invading of Iraq caused far far more deaths than what Saddam did. Saddam brought stability through a dictatorship
gagaga
The U.S. did bring democracy to a country plagued by the excesses of a brutal dictatorship. Unless Iraq economy worsen or does not improve, there is no reason to hate the U.S. even if it had a hidden agenda.
gambit
QUOTE (mndeg @ Sep 28 2009, 03:11 PM) *
the invading of Iraq caused far far more deaths than what Saddam did. Saddam brought stability through a dictatorship

So for you, as long as YOUR society is stable, and dictatorships offers the quickest path to stability, you see nothing wrong with oppression?
TheHero
Yes, for helping in the 9 / 11 inside job scam and for starting a race war between the 1st and 3rd world.
tangawizi
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 28 2009, 08:31 PM) *
What you can't accept is the fact that you don't like Bush so you justify tyrants and murderers like him, and insurgency that are themselves hapless killers so you can make your enemy Bush look worse than he is. You are driven and driven by politics only, not by higher morality because you can't seem to think that a man a tyrant and a mass murderer can't be the problem simply because you don't like American foreign policy.

And that you would venerate any opportunistic shenanigan with little class to heroic status simply and simply because he threw shoes at Bush. And insult I can't stomach? LOL. I could care less about Bush, I actually thought it was funny and the videos they made to remix it was hilarious...but it doesn't mean I think this guy is a hero. That is what you can't seem to stomach. And the fact that I don't like Bush either, that to your black and white mind is something trivial.


It wasn't a heroic act, it was an INSULT. The shoe throwing is equivalent to sticking two fingers up at Bush's fat face. Mind you, this opportunistic sand nigga (as u obviously refer to all arabs) is no hero to me, he's just a regular guy saying out loud what EVERYBODY ON THIS PLANET thinks of Bush and his colossal mistake in invading Iraq.

Purleese, i dont' like Bush as much or as little as you do, but u gotta admit what that a.ss did to the Iraqi people and the US troopers by cooking up the intelligence to mount an invasion of Iraq is by far the BIGGEST CRAP crap.gif ever dumped on the Iraqi nation and its people, as well as the American army and economy.
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Sep 29 2009, 02:04 PM) *
It wasn't a heroic act, it was an INSULT. The shoe throwing is equivalent to sticking two fingers up at Bush's fat face. Mind you, this opportunistic sand nigga (as u obviously refer to all arabs) is no hero to me, he's just a regular guy saying out loud what EVERYBODY ON THIS PLANET thinks of Bush and his colossal mistake in invading Iraq.

Purleese, i dont' like Bush as much or as little as you do, but u gotta admit what that a.ss did to the Iraqi people and the US troopers by cooking up the intelligence to mount an invasion of Iraq is by far the BIGGEST CRAP crap.gif ever dumped on the Iraqi nation and its people, as well as the American army and economy.

Sure you didn't that here to venerate that 'nigga'. LOL. The truth is you don't like Bush and so you venerate shenanigans like this simply you don't like Bush, the fact that you're ready to justify Saddam's rule just to make an argument against Bush proves that point.

And yes, I called my little brother a nigga the other day as a playful joke. I must mean Filipinos are sand 'niggas' too. LOL. Ain't that right my nigga? LOL. And FYI when racist soldiers call hajji's racist names, it's not nigga, it's sand N*gga or sandies for short. See you learn something new everyday.
mndeg
QUOTE (gambit @ Sep 29 2009, 12:04 AM) *
So for you, as long as YOUR society is stable, and dictatorships offers the quickest path to stability, you see nothing wrong with oppression?

oppression of what? like the oppression in China?

you do understand that quality of life is far worse now? Iraqi's voted in Muslim fundamentalists
Jagger
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 26 2009, 08:24 PM) *
I wonder why this hero didn't throw his shoes at Saddam? Or at the insurgents killing innocents?

What a hero! A brave man. That's defending your country for sure. If anything you showed how low class Iraqis can be.

What does Saddam or the insurgents have to do with any of this? This story is between Bush and the Iraqi show-thrower. It has nothing to do with Saddam or the insurgents, yet the fact that you felt the need to bring them up makes it look like you're trying to defend Bush's actions, even if that may not have been your intention.

I sense some jealousy coming from you, although I don't blame you. If I was a war veteran and fought actual wars but no one called me a hero, and yet some random journalist gets called a hero by millions just for throwing a shoe at the president, I'd probably be pissed too.

But let's not overlook the fact that the Iraqi journalist did at least have the guts to throw his shoe at Bush, knowing full well that he would be tortured and be given a prison sentence, and he is in fact now serving a three-year prison sentence for such a petty "crime". That probably seems like nothing to a hardened war veteran such as yourself, but that is something that ordinary everyday Iraqi people would consider to be "heroic".
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (Jagger @ Sep 29 2009, 03:11 PM) *
What does Saddam or the insurgents have to do with any of this? This story is between Bush and the Iraqi show-thrower. It has nothing to do with Saddam or the insurgents, yet the fact that you felt the need to bring them up makes it look like you're trying to defend Bush's actions, even if that may not have been your intention.

I sense some jealousy coming from you, although I don't blame you. If I was a war veteran and fought actual wars but no one called me a hero, and yet some random journalist gets called a hero by millions just for throwing a shoe at the president, I'd probably be pissed too.

But let's not overlook the fact that the Iraqi journalist did at least have the guts to throw his shoe at Bush, knowing full well that he would be tortured and be given a prison sentence, and he is in fact now serving a three-year prison sentence for such a petty "crime". That probably seems like nothing to a hardened war veteran such as yourself, but that is something that ordinary everyday Iraqi people would consider to be "heroic".

Because I thought his actions was low class, means I'm jealous? LOL. Why because I don't join in you guys love of monkeying Bush? Give me a break. Look I know it's you guys' hobby to do anything to make fun of Bush to the point of making shenanigans into heroes and those who don't like that MUST be jealous conservative Bush lovers. LOL.

And no, I don't wish to be a hero. I think it's quiet shallow to want to be one or to be called one. I KNOW real heroes, some of them are blown into pieces and shipped home coffins, both American and Iraqis. But even those guys if they were still alive wouldn't want to be called one. But to be honest with you, none of them would ever for the SAKE OF BEING IN CAMERA, would ever throw shoes even to leaders they despise. But they would fight wars for others sake (would fu-king run across bullets to carry other downed soldiers, or civilians), even if they got no recognition.

But then again today, people would praise antics in cameras by those cowards who don't have the guts to do that and or do REAL actions that would help his country, as in fight insurgents, because today heroes are political made to make their opponents look bad. It is what it is.

Jagger
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 29 2009, 09:22 PM) *
Because I thought his actions was low class, means I'm jealous? LOL. Why because I don't join in you guys love of monkeying Bush? Give me a break. Look I know it's you guys' hobby to do anything to make fun of Bush to the point of making shenanigans into heroes and those who don't like that MUST be jealous conservative Bush lovers. LOL.

And no, I don't wish to be a hero. I think it's quiet shallow to want to be one or to be called one. I KNOW real heroes, some of them are blown into pieces and shipped home coffins, both American and Iraqis. But even those guys if they were still alive wouldn't want to be called one. But to be honest with you, none of them would ever for the SAKE OF BEING IN CAMERA, would ever throw shoes even to leaders they despise. But they would fight wars for others sake (would fu-king run across bullets to carry other downed soldiers, or civilians), even if they got no recognition.

But then again today, people would praise antics in cameras by those cowards who don't have the guts to do that and or do REAL actions that would help his country, as in fight insurgents, because today heroes are political made to make their opponents look bad. It is what it is.

I don't remember making fun of Bush or even criticizing him anywhere in this thread. Where did you get that idea from? My point is that Saddam and the insurgency have nothing to do with this topic, but the fact that you felt the need to bring them up in the first place makes it seem like you're getting defensive, almost as if you are trying to deflect Bush's blame onto Saddam and the insurgency. Again, I'm not saying that's what your intention is, but that's just the way it appears to me.

And yes, you do come off sounding a bit jealous. Like you said, you've probably seen people that have done things far more brave than what that journalist did, and I don't doubt that. But to suggest that what he did is cowardly is ridiculous. Maybe relatively less brave than the kind of people you've met, but many civilians would still consider his actions to be brave nevertheless, for a civilian that is. Does he deserve to be called a "hero"? Maybe not. But just because he is overrated, does that mean he deserves to be called a "coward"? Certainly not. What he did is not something a coward would do, period.

Besides, the guy said it himself: "I am not a hero." So what exactly is your beef with him? Is it because he looks like some kind of attention whore or something? He'd have to be pretty stupid to be willing to be tortured and get a three-year prison sentence just for some attention. Or could it be because he was just angry towards Bush and wanted to vent his anger? Whatever the case is, I still don't get what your beef is with that "sand nigga"?
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (Jagger @ Sep 29 2009, 05:00 PM) *
I don't remember making fun of Bush or even criticizing him anywhere in this thread. Where did you get that idea from? My point is that Saddam and the insurgency have nothing to do with this topic, but the fact that you felt the need to bring them up makes it seem like you're getting defensive, almost as if you are trying to deflect Bush's blame onto Saddam and the insurgency. Again, I'm not saying that's what your intention is, but that's just the way it appears to me.

And yes, you do come off sounding a bit jealous. Like you said, you've probably seen people that have done things far more brave than what that journalist did, and I don't doubt that. But to suggest that what he did is cowardly is ridiculous. Maybe relatively less brave than the kind of people you've met, but many civilians would still consider his actions to be brave nevertheless, for a civilian that is. Does he deserve to be called a "hero"? Maybe not. But just because he is overrated, does that mean he deserves to be called a "coward"? Certainly not. What he did is not something a coward would do, period.

Besides, the guy said it himself: "I am not a hero." So what exactly is your beef with him? Is it because he looks like some kind of attention whore or something? He'd have to be pretty stupid to be willing to be tortured and get a three-year prison sentence just for some attention. Or could it be because he was just angry towards Bush and wanted to vent his anger? Whatever the case is, I still don't get what your beef is with him?

It has everything to do with it. He said he was doing something as heroic as 'defending his country' but where is he when insurgents and killing innocents on the streets? Where is he rebuilding schools? Where was he when Saddam was torturing his countrymen?

What's my beef? What's with your veneration? I can't think somebody's actions are retarded with sole purpose of trying to come off as something heroic anymore? I gotta have a reason why throwing a shoe at somebody trying to be 'patriotic' is retarded and I cannot comment when this thread is posted to make him look like a fricking brave hero? Come on. It's like me asking why you guys don't like Bush. And no HERE you didn't make any comments about Bush, yeah here.

Jealous of this guy? If this is the hero of today, I'd rather be a douchebag any day. LOL. Cheers to the heroes. LOL.

Oh yeah throwing a shoe at someone is a brave thing alright. What other Iraqis are doing, for much less pay, for much less attention, is much more honorable than a $hitbag journalist trying to be a hero ever did. Oh wait, he's not a hero according to his article LOL. What he mentioned it three or four times? Bravissimo oh Mr. Hero.

And sand nigga? Dude I called him a nigga (just like I called a Filipino politician on that other thread "fu-k that nigga"), it's tangawizi who called him a sand nigga. LOL. I used nigga here a couple of times, but when I use it on an Arab guy I'm meaning "sand nig ger" now? Calm down now motherfu-kers! LOL.
Jagger
QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 29 2009, 11:11 PM) *
It has everything to do with it. He said he was doing something as heroic as 'defending his country' but where is he when insurgents and killing innocents on the streets? Where is he rebuilding schools? Where was he when Saddam was torturing his countrymen?

No, I don't see any relevance at all. Saddam is from a bygone era and the 'shoe-thrower' wasn't even a journalist yet in Saddam's day. There is no way he could have met Saddam face-to-face, and even if he did, what makes you think he wouldn't do the same thing to Saddam? As for fighting the insurgents, I thought his beef is mainly against the US occupation rather than the Iraqi insurgency? What if he had thrown a grenade at occupying US forces instead? Would you consider that to be "heroic" or would you consider it to be "cowardly" just because it's directed at US forces rather than Iraqi insurgents?

QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 29 2009, 11:11 PM) *
What's my beef? What's with your veneration? I can't think somebody's actions are retarded with sole purpose of trying to come off as something heroic anymore? I gotta have a reason why throwing a shoe at somebody trying to be 'patriotic' is retarded and I cannot comment when this thread is posted to make him look like a fricking brave hero?

What veneration? I don't remember venerating anyone. For that matter, I don't think anyone was venerating the shoe-thrower in this thread before you brought up Saddam and the insurgency out of nowhere. All I remember is Tangawizi agreeing with his views before that, although I guess that's probably veneration to you?

QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 29 2009, 11:11 PM) *
Come on. It's like me asking why you guys don't like Bush. And no HERE you didn't make any comments about Bush, yeah here.

I haven't made any comments about Bush here or anywhere in this forum since I returned... or for the last year or two for that matter, as far as I can remember. Seriously, I've got nothing personal against him. I think he's a funny guy.

QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 29 2009, 11:11 PM) *
Jealous of this guy? If this is the hero of today, I'd rather be a douchebag any day. LOL. Cheers to the heroes. LOL.

Oh yeah throwing a shoe at someone is a brave thing alright. What other Iraqis are doing, for much less pay, for much less attention, is much more honorable than a $hitbag journalist trying to be a hero ever did. Oh wait, he's not a hero according to his article LOL. What he mentioned it three or four times? Bravissimo oh Mr. Hero.

That's exactly what I mean. Your beef is probably with him being labeled a "hero" when he doesn't deserve it, right?

QUOTE (flipcombatmedic @ Sep 29 2009, 11:11 PM) *
And sand nigga? Dude I called him a nigga (just like I called a Filipino politician on that other thread "fu-k that nigga"), it's tangawizi who called him a sand nigga. LOL. I used nigga here a couple of times, but when I use it on an Arab guy I'm meaning "sand nig ger" now? Calm down now motherfu-kers! LOL.

I think you need to take a chill pill first.
tangawizi
at think he needs more than a chill pill, he needs a break from the army.
fivers
Would u throw a shoe at him as well??

umm no, Iraqi prison sucks
tangawizi
^ thanks for bringing the topic back on track..

i wouldn't either... i'd rather post on AF abt how Bush sux and all dat, cuz the truth pisses the folks off ... hehe embarassedlaugh.gif
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Sep 30 2009, 08:24 AM) *
at think he needs more than a chill pill, he needs a break from the army.

oh why because I don't praise this guy like you want and expect everyone else to? boo hoo! the fact taht you're so irritated that someone actually $hit on him proves that you post him here to make a hero out of him psss.

and you know I might have thrown a shoe, but I wouldn't do it in front of the camera to make attention nor to make an article saying $hit that I did it to 'defend my country'. "I'm no hero" haha, give me a break my nigga. LOL.

everyday regular iraqis do REAL stuff to better their country, a lot of them get killed for little money and for no attention. this mofo come out to make a hero out of himself and he gets the praise from idiots worldwide. LOL. it says more about those people than him.
gambit
QUOTE (Jagger @ Sep 29 2009, 06:01 PM) *
No, I don't see any relevance at all. Saddam is from a bygone era and the 'shoe-thrower' wasn't even a journalist yet in Saddam's day. There is no way he could have met Saddam face-to-face, and even if he did, what makes you think he wouldn't do the same thing to Saddam?
Because he KNOW he and the men in his family would be dead before sundown. The women? They would be given to Uday and Qusay as sexual playtoys. His claim of torture? Of course he would make such a claim. If anything, if he was not 'tortured' he would be a laughingstock and there would be no offers of cars and women when he got out.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/iraq...617_iraq16.html

Looks pretty cool for someone who was 'tortured'.

QUOTE (Jagger @ Sep 29 2009, 06:01 PM) *
As for fighting the insurgents, I thought his beef is mainly against the US occupation rather than the Iraqi insurgency?
Which make his actions even more suspiciously opportunistic. The US occupation is not what is nor have been tearing Iraq apart. It has been the 'insurgents' who killed far more Iraqis than US troops.

QUOTE (Jagger @ Sep 29 2009, 06:01 PM) *
What if he had thrown a grenade at occupying US forces instead? Would you consider that to be "heroic" or would you consider it to be "cowardly" just because it's directed at US forces rather than Iraqi insurgents?
Speaking for myself, I would call it 'heroic'. At least he would be facing armed troops instead of grocery shoppers.
mndeg
he thought he was going to die when he threw that shoe

he was waterboarded, which is kind of like dying but not really dying.

I would not throw a shoe because symbolism is meaningless to me. If I had the power or connections I would arrange a hit.
gambit
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Sep 29 2009, 01:04 PM) *
Purleese, i dont' like Bush as much or as little as you do, but u gotta admit what that a.ss did to the Iraqi people and the US troopers by cooking up the intelligence to mount an invasion of Iraq is by far the BIGGEST CRAP crap.gif ever dumped on the Iraqi nation and its people, as well as the American army and economy.
Yes...And three separate UN/IAEA chief inspectors helped. By the way...Those nuclear inspection teams were DELIBERATELY structured to exclude Americans for the top position. Richard Butler was Australian, Rolf Ekeus and Hans Blix were Swedes. Not one man disagreed with their missions and the correct definition of 'WMD', which none here seems to understand nor cared to even try to understand.
gambit
QUOTE (mndeg @ Sep 30 2009, 09:16 PM) *
he thought he was going to die when he threw that shoe

he was waterboarded, which is kind of like dying but not really dying.

I would not throw a shoe because symbolism is meaningless to me. If I had the power or connections I would arrange a hit.
IF...He was waterboarded. So far all we have are his allegations of 'torture'. I have been waterboarded. I am a graduate of the USAF SERE program. It is not pleasant to put it mildly but to put this technique in the same category as pulling out fingernails or breaking legs or raping one's female family members in full view of all is stretching the definition of torture. From all the reports I have seen so far, this 'hero' got off easy. He was probably roughed up a bit, but until we see concrete evidences, his allegations remains exactly that. I am willing to be dollars to doughnuts that his allegations of 'torture' will quietly go away in order continue maintaining his 'heroic' facade of defying an evil occupation.
Jagger
QUOTE (gambit @ Oct 1 2009, 02:15 AM) *
Because he KNOW he and the men in his family would be dead before sundown. The women? They would be given to Uday and Qusay as sexual playtoys. His claim of torture? Of course he would make such a claim. If anything, if he was not 'tortured' he would be a laughingstock and there would be no offers of cars and women when he got out.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/iraq...617_iraq16.html

Looks pretty cool for someone who was 'tortured'.

Whether he would have did the same to Saddam or whether he was really tortured, we don't really know. It's all just speculation for now, but you guys are already assuming he is lying, without any evidence either way.

QUOTE (gambit @ Oct 1 2009, 02:15 AM) *
Which make his actions even more suspiciously opportunistic. The US occupation is not what is nor have been tearing Iraq apart. It has been the 'insurgents' who killed far more Iraqis than US troops.

Unlike the Coalition which is a unified group fighting for a unified cause, the Iraqi insurgency is just a bunch of various different independent groups fighting for different causes using different methods. While some of them do target civilians due to sectarianism, most of them only attack military targets and security forces. Regardless of which side has been responsible for more civilian casualties, a majority of Iraqi civilians would much rather support the Iraqi insurgents rather than the occupying foreign forces.

QUOTE (gambit @ Oct 1 2009, 02:15 AM) *
Speaking for myself, I would call it 'heroic'. At least he would be facing armed troops instead of grocery shoppers.

Fair enough.
tangawizi
QUOTE (mndeg @ Oct 1 2009, 05:16 AM) *
he thought he was going to die when he threw that shoe

he was waterboarded, which is kind of like dying but not really dying.

I would not throw a shoe because symbolism is meaningless to me. If I had the power or connections I would arrange a hit.


omaga... u r even more ruthless than i thot embarassedlaugh.gif

i guess i wd juz spit on his face, culturally thats more insulting than throwing shoes.. who cares if its low class..
gambit
QUOTE (Jagger @ Sep 30 2009, 11:25 PM) *
Whether he would have did the same to Saddam or whether he was really tortured, we don't really know. It's all just speculation for now, but you guys are already assuming he is lying, without any evidence either way.
Evidence? The accepted rules of logic are that whoever make the claim has the burden of providing the evidences. This guy alleged that he was tortured but from all the publicity views so far, the man looks damn healthy for someone who, in his own words...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/world/mi...ast/16shoe.html
QUOTE
he said he was severely beaten by Iraqi security officers even as the news conference continued inside.

Mr. Zaidi described what happened over the next few hours. “At the time the prime minister went on a satellite television station, saying that he did not go to sleep until he made sure that I found a comfortable bed and a cover, at the very same moment he was talking, I was being tortured,” he said. He added that his treatment in custody included “electric shocks and being beaten by electric cables and steel rods.”
Uh...Huh...If there is any people in the world who are well versed in genuine torture, not the kind I experienced in the military that we called 'Basic Training', it is the ME. And yet this guy has no problem being mobile for photo-ops.
QUOTE
His brother Uday said that Mr. Zaidi flew to Greece, where he would receive medical and psychological care. Part of the reason he fears for his life, his brother said, is that he plans to identify the people who played a role in his mistreatment, including high-ranking security officials.
Really...How would he know his torturers were 'high-ranking'? In the world of genuine torture, 'high-ranking' officials seldom dirty their hands, unless they are genuinely sadists, like Saddam's sons. Politically motivated tortures are usually conducted by underlings whose questions are already prepared. This guy publicly insulted a foreigner, not any 'high-ranking' officials in the Iraqi government. No 'high-ranking' officials in this Iraqi government owe him any 'payback'. Now he is being coy with names supposedly attached to his 'torture' sessions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/1...e-thrower-freed
QUOTE
He said he now feared for his life, and believed US intelligence agents would chase after him.
Right...When all else fail...Trot out the oh-so-spooky three initials American intelligence agency.

This smells of opportunism all over. More like this guy cannot find a job as a real journalist and now he found a way to become a successful fiction writer, all without even a rough draft of a book. Someone offered him 10 mils for his shoes. Another man who considered his women as nothing more than chattel offered up his daughter...Money and women...Bravo...!!!

Human rights groups are obliged to at least put on a facade and pretend they take his allegations seriously, but the truly experienced investigators among them, just from watching his general appearance, know in their hearts he is full of poo and that he is playing them and the seriousness of their work for all he the publicity can get. And gullible people here sucked it all up.

QUOTE (Jagger @ Sep 30 2009, 11:25 PM) *
Unlike the Coalition which is a unified group fighting for a unified cause, the Iraqi insurgency is just a bunch of various different independent groups fighting for different causes using different methods. While some of them do target civilians due to sectarianism, most of them only attack military targets and security forces. Regardless of which side has been responsible for more civilian casualties, a majority of Iraqi civilians would much rather support the Iraqi insurgents rather than the occupying foreign forces.
Support in what ways? Killing other Iraqis? We do not care if the entire Iraqi population are against US, but if what you claim is true, then how do you explain the fact that the majority of Fallujah's residents fled when we warned them of an imminent military assault? No...The truth is that while the majority of Iraqis want US to leave, that same majority do not support the suicide attacks against ordinary Iraqis in the marketplaces where the terrorists have no scruples about killing ten or Iraqis civilians for just one US soldier. They do not support the criminality that their fellow Iraqis performed under the guise of being part of the 'insurgency'. If what you claim is true, then the situation in Baghdad would have been a hundred times worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntadhar_al-Zaidi
QUOTE
A Saudi businessman offered US$10 million to buy the shoes thrown by al-Zaidi.
Bush was nimble enough to dodge both shoes. Now if Bush had caught both shoes and threw it back at al-Zaidi and actually hit him, some millionaire neocon back in Texas would offered 20 mils for them.

embarassedlaugh.gif
Jagger
QUOTE (gambit @ Oct 1 2009, 06:35 AM) *
Evidence? The accepted rules of logic are that whoever make the claim has the burden of providing the evidences. This guy alleged that he was tortured but from all the publicity views so far, the man looks damn healthy for someone who, in his own words...

I think you are confusing the rules of 'logic' with the rules of 'law'. The 'burden of proof' concept is legally accepted but logically fallacious. The 'logical' thing to do would be to provide evidence to support your allegation that he is lying, though it may not be practical from a 'legal' point of view.

QUOTE (gambit @ Oct 1 2009, 06:35 AM) *
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/world/mi...ast/16shoe.html
Uh...Huh...If there is any people in the world who are well versed in genuine torture, not the kind I experienced in the military that we called 'Basic Training', it is the ME. And yet this guy has no problem being mobile for photo-ops.
Really...How would he know his torturers were 'high-ranking'? In the world of genuine torture, 'high-ranking' officials seldom dirty their hands, unless they are genuinely sadists, like Saddam's sons. Politically motivated tortures are usually conducted by underlings whose questions are already prepared. This guy publicly insulted a foreigner, not any 'high-ranking' officials in the Iraqi government. No 'high-ranking' officials in this Iraqi government owe him any 'payback'. Now he is being coy with names supposedly attached to his 'torture' sessions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/1...e-thrower-freed
Right...When all else fail...Trot out the oh-so-spooky three initials American intelligence agency.

This smells of opportunism all over. More like this guy cannot find a job as a real journalist and now he found a way to become a successful fiction writer, all without even a rough draft of a book. Someone offered him 10 mils for his shoes. Another man who considered his women as nothing more than chattel offered up his daughter...Money and women...Bravo...!!!

Human rights groups are obliged to at least put on a facade and pretend they take his allegations seriously, but the truly experienced investigators among them, just from watching his general appearance, know in their hearts he is full of poo and that he is playing them and the seriousness of their work for all he the publicity can get. And gullible people here sucked it all up.

Well, I guess you're entitled to your opinions.

QUOTE (gambit @ Oct 1 2009, 06:35 AM) *
Support in what ways? Killing other Iraqis? We do not care if the entire Iraqi population are against US, but if what you claim is true, then how do you explain the fact that the majority of Fallujah's residents fled when we warned them of an imminent military assault? No...The truth is that while the majority of Iraqis want US to leave, that same majority do not support the suicide attacks against ordinary Iraqis in the marketplaces where the terrorists have no scruples about killing ten or Iraqis civilians for just one US soldier. They do not support the criminality that their fellow Iraqis performed under the guise of being part of the 'insurgency'. If what you claim is true, then the situation in Baghdad would have been a hundred times worse.

You've obviously misunderstood what I said. Another way of putting it would be that a majority of Iraqis would prefer the Iraqi insurgents over the US occupying forces. It does not mean they support everything the insurgents do, but if they had to choose between the two, it's more likely they'd choose the local insurgents over the foreign forces. Besides, let's not deny the fact that the US forces have also been responsible for a lot of civilian casualties, using 'collateral damage' as an excuse.

QUOTE (gambit @ Oct 1 2009, 06:35 AM) *
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntadhar_al-Zaidi
Bush was nimble enough to dodge both shoes. Now if Bush had caught both shoes and threw it back at al-Zaidi and actually hit him, some millionaire neocon back in Texas would offered 20 mils for them.

embarassedlaugh.gif

Good for him. He'll be a millionaire soon.
gambit
QUOTE (Jagger @ Oct 1 2009, 03:43 PM) *
I think you are confusing the rules of 'logic' with the rules of 'law'. The 'burden of proof' concept is legally accepted but logically fallacious. The 'logical' thing to do would be to provide evidence to support your allegation that he is lying, though it may not be practical from a 'legal' point of view.
Right...So if I claimed to have been to Mars and back, it is your burden to prove that I am lying.
Jagger
QUOTE (gambit @ Oct 2 2009, 09:49 AM) *
Right...So if I claimed to have been to Mars and back, it is your burden to prove that I am lying.

In logic, it is no one's burden. It might be practical in some situations to place the 'burden of proof' on a particular party, like when it comes to law or science, but otherwise the concept is a logical fallacy.
tangawizi
Come to think of it, it can't be easy to be a soldier in the US Army serving a war that was started by an ex-leader on shaky moral grounds, and to be despised by the very people they were supposed to "liberate"..

Mentally, that must be a difficult place to be.
flipcombatmedic
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Oct 3 2009, 02:06 AM) *
Come to think of it, it can't be easy to be a soldier in the US Army serving a war that was started by an ex-leader on shaky moral grounds, and to be despised by the very people they were supposed to "liberate"..

Mentally, that must be a difficult place to be.

Yeah and it's easy to stereotype people because they don't want to simply follow the crowd in their agenda. Because I don't like a person that threw a shoe at Bush it must mean I'm a 'warmongering, conservative, soldier who wants to be a hero' LOL. Yeah nice try. If you're going to bash people try maybe their arguments first at least. You sound desperate enough. Hippies are so predictable. You guys are like the opposite of conservatives, but otherwise act exactly the same.
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Oct 3 2009, 02:06 AM) *
Come to think of it, it can't be easy to be a soldier in the US Army serving a war that was started by an ex-leader on shaky moral grounds, and to be despised by the very people they were supposed to "liberate"..

Mentally, that must be a difficult place to be.



You sound like a broken record. Harping on GWB.

BTW, it is never easy to be a soldier in times of war. No matter who started or what grounds it was based on. Germans weren't too happy that the US liberated them. And, the Japanese weren't too happy about the A-bomb being dropped twice on their homeland. But, once you get past that and can move on ... you find that their future turned out to be better than if they held a grudge for as long as you have against GWB.

Focusing on the wrong or mis-deeds will not bring about a better life.
It will also not change the the things that were done.
jrockerz


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTrhVY-Wwgs


to all american f@g, once my country was like iraq, there was unfavored leader.
but we also dont like other country touch us. because we would took down our
tyrant leader ( 1998 indonesia) by ourself

so
stop being fricken world police
nobody want ur lecture today
mark that
tangawizi
QUOTE (avisitor @ Oct 3 2009, 10:05 PM) *
You sound like a broken record. Harping on GWB.

Focusing on the wrong or mis-deeds will not bring about a better life.
It will also not change the the things that were done.


I like the indirect way u try to admit GWB's mis-deeds. beerchug.gif

I am not seeking to change the war in Iraq, when it has already happened. But i am seeking to change the minds of folks like u who felt the war needed justification no matter what, when in fact, there was NO justification to go into it and expend American lives and treasure.
gambit
QUOTE (Jagger @ Oct 2 2009, 12:14 PM) *
In logic, it is no one's burden. It might be practical in some situations to place the 'burden of proof' on a particular party, like when it comes to law or science, but otherwise the concept is a logical fallacy.
Some circumstances? Life itself is a demand for one to be practical everyday. Retreating into the abstract is a sign of no valid argument. This journalist claimed to have been tortured in prison, yet so far we have seen the man to be quite healthy and mobile for someone who was supposedly 'tortured' in the ME, one of the world's premier areas on Earth for torture techniques. Suckers seems to be quite apt a description for those who believed him.
Jagger
QUOTE (gambit @ Oct 6 2009, 08:18 PM) *
Some circumstances? Life itself is a demand for one to be practical everyday. Retreating into the abstract is a sign of no valid argument. This journalist claimed to have been tortured in prison, yet so far we have seen the man to be quite healthy and mobile for someone who was supposedly 'tortured' in the ME, one of the world's premier areas on Earth for torture techniques. Suckers seems to be quite apt a description for those who believed him.

You claimed that "The accepted rules of logic are that whoever make the claim has the burden of providing the evidences." I pointed out that the 'burden of proof' is a logical fallacy and therefore your claim is false. End of.

Besides, the only reason the Iraqi shoe-thrower is now being called a 'hero' is simply because he was thrown in prison for nine months over something that should not have been considered a crime in the first place. They should have just let him go the first time and let him fade into obscurity, but instead the Iraqi court had to give him a pointless prison sentence and make him into some kind of patriotic 'hero'.
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