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Suzuka00
QUOTE
KAPAMPANGAN KE RING BULAKENYU... KAPAMPANGAN DIN KAMING MGA BULAKENYO...Apr 4, '09 11:05 PM
for everyone
MARAMING mga Bulakenyo ang napapaisip kung bakit ang kanilang mga apelyido, ang mga kamag-anakan, at ang mga gawai (e.g.: libad at batalla sa Calumpit at Pulilan) ay parang mula pa sa mga Kapampangan. Iniisip rin ng iba na baka dahil sa magkatabi lamang ang Bulacan at Pampanga ay nakapasok na lamang sa Lalawigan ng Bulacan ang mga Kapampangan.

Marami ring nagugulat sa mga ilang detalye ng kasaysayan ng Bulacan na nababanggit ang Pampanga. Lumalabas sa mga talang pangkasaysayan na ang Bulacan ay tunay na dating bahagi ng Pampanga, at ang mga Bulakenyo, kung pagbabatayan ang mga talang pangkasaysayan ng mga Kastila, inilarawan nila ang Bulacan bilang may wikang kaiba sa ginagamit ng mga taga-Maynila na Tagalog. Samakatuwid, ang Bulacan (at itoý mababasa sa ulat ni Don Miguel de Loarca noong 1582 sa mga encomiendas ng La Pampanga) ay inabutang nagsasalita ng kapampangan, bagamat may ilang bahagi noon ang Bulacan na unti-unting natatahanan ng mga Tagalog, lalo na ang lambak ng ilog ng matandang Meycauayan (na ngayon ay mga bayan ng Bocaue, Pandi, Sta. Maria, Obando, Valenzuela, San Jose del Monte, Marilao, at ang Meycauayan) at ang Hagonoy.

Makikita ang malaking bakas ng mga Kapampangan sa mga pangalang-lugar o toponimya ng mga purok, barangay, at bayan ng Bulacan. Halimbawa na lamang dito ang Pandi. Hindi matagpuan sa lumang diksyunaryong Tagalog ang katagang pandi, liban na lamang sa isang kataga na pandi-pandi (na mayroon din sa diksyunaryong Kapampangan ni Fray Diego Bergano) na ang ibig sabihin ay maliit na watawat. Ayon kay Dr. Lino Dizon ng Tarlac State University, posibleng mula ito sa salitang kapampangan na "pande"na ang ibig sabihin ay panday. Itoý dahil na rin sa nasa may tabi ito ng Angat na kung saan ay laganap ang pamamanday dito dala ng mayaman ang lugar sa bakal. Sinasabi rin na umabot hanggang sa Angat ang teknolohiya ng pagpapanday ng mga Kapampangan, mula kay Pande Pira (Panday Pilak sa Tagalog) ng Capalangan, Apalit.

Isa pang halimbawa ay ang pangalan ng Guiguinto. Maaaring mula naman ito sa salitang Tagalog na "giginto" na iba pang tawag sa salagintong insekto na kadalasang makikita sa kaparangan at palayan. Maaari itong suportahan ng tala ni Loarca noong 1582 na kung saan inilarawan niya ang Bulacan bilang isang malawak na palayan at bulakan, at magpahanggang ngayon ay isa ang Bulacan sa nangungunang tagapagprodyus ng palay sa bansa. Ayon kay Joel P. Mallari ng Juan D. Nepomuceno Center for Kapampangan Studies, maaaring mula ito sa salitang Kapampangan na "gigintu" na ang ibig sabihin ay kumikinang ng parang ginto. Tulad ng paliwanag ni Dr. Dizon sa Pandi, teorya ni Mallari ay tinawag itong Guiguinto dahil na rin sa nasa rehiyon ito ng Angat na kung saan mayaman ito sa mineral, lalo na sa bakal. Mula sa Ilog Angat, ang mga ilog nito nalumuluslos pababa ng Guiguinto ay maaaring nagdadala ng mga ginto mula sa hilaga.

Bukod sa Guiguinto, nariyan pa ang mga barangay nito na maaaring may pinagmulang Kapampangan. Tulad ng Malis na ang ibig sabihin sa Kapampangan ay umalis (na ayon sa kasaysayang lokal ng Guiguinto, ang tinutukoy na umalis dito ay ang visita ng Malis na nailipat sa tabi ng bagong calzada noong sa Guiguinto noong panahon ng mga Kastila); ang Ilang-ilang, na ayon sa mga matatandang tala ay ang orihinal na baybay ng pangalang ito ay Alang-ilang, na kung sisilipin ang Diccionario de la Lengua Pampango ni Fray Bergano, ang orihinal na tawag ng mga Kapampangan sa puno ng ilang-ilang ay alang-ilang, na ng lumaon ay naging ilang-ilang. Nariyan din ang Cutcut na kung uugatin mo sa wikang Tagalog ang kahulugan nito ay ngangahulugang "kinayos o kinaskas ng daliri o maliit na bagay." Higit na mas makahulugan ang pakahulugan ng salitang "kutkut" sa Kapampangan na ang ibig sabihin ay "nahukay o nailibig o naisakang lupa dala ng paghuhukay o marahas na agos ng tubig o ilog."

Marami pang ibang lugar sa Bulacan na maaaring maiugat sa Kapampangan, tulad ng Baliuag na ayon sa dating direktor ng Institute of Kapampangan Studies ng Angales Unversity Foundation na si Kragi Garcia, itoý pangalan ng isang uri ng nara na ang tawag ng mga Kapampangan ay baliwag; ang Mayumo sa pangalan ng San Miguel de Mayumo (at halos ang malaking bahagi ng San Miguel) ay mula sa salitang Kapampangan na mayumu na ibig sabihin ay "matamis" dahil ayon sa mga tala, nanggaling sa San Miguel an g mga pulot-pukyutan na ikinakalakal ng mga Dumagat sa kapatagan; ang Calantipe sa Baliuag na isang uri ng lamang-tubig o oyster (na kung saan, katabi lamang ito ng Calantipe, Apalit, ay posible na noong unang panahon ay iisang barangay lamang ito); ang Meyto, Calumpit na mula sa Kapampangang salita na "maitu" na ang ibig sabihin ay "mahito"; maging ang pinagmulan ng unang republika sa Asya na Cacarong de Sili sa Pandi ay maaaring mula sa Kapampangang salita na "kakarung" na tumutukoy sa tunog na agos ng ilog na parang kumakarung o kumukurong; gayundin ang Malolos na mula sa salitang Kapampangan na "luslos" na ang ibig sabihin ay mga ilog na ang direksyon ay patimog patungong Look ng Maynila, at posibleng ito ay naging Maluslos dahil sa dami ng luslos dito, at ng dumating ang mga Kastila ay naging "Malolos;" ang Batasan at King Kabayo sa San Miguel na mula sa Kapampangang salita na "batasan" na ang ibig sabihin ay shortcut na ilog, at ang King Kabayo na mula naman sa katagang Kapampangan na "king kabayu" na ang ibig sabihin ay "sa may kabayo."

Ang Bahay-saliksikan ng Bulacan (Center for Bulacan Studies) ng Bulacan State University ay kasalukuyang itinatala ang mahigit pang daang mga pangalang-lugar na posibleng mula sa mga Kapampangan. Ilan lamang ito sa mga pangalang-lugar na masasabing may pinagmulang Kapampangan.

Ang Bulacan, ayon kay Gov. Hen. Gomes Perez Dasmarinas sa kanyang ulat sa Hari ng Espana noong 1592, ay bahagi ng La Pampanga, na kung saan, ang kabisera ng Pampanga na tinukoy ni Dasmarinas ay ang bayan ngayon ng Bulakan. Sang-ayon naman sa Expediente ng Pampanga, ang Bulacan ay pormal na naihiwalay sa Pampanga noong 1755. Sa panahong ito, ang kabisera ng Pampanga ay nailipat sa Bacolor dahil ang bayan ng Bulakan noon ay naging kabisera ng Bulacan.

Ang mga bayan ng Calumpit, Baliuag (kasama ang Bustos), Pulilan, at San Miguel de Mayumo ay ang mga huling bayan ng Pampanga na naisanib sa Bulacan noong 1842 dahil sa ang naging hangganan ng Bulacan at Pampanga ay ang Pinac de Candaba. Ang mga bayang ito ay pinanahanan magpahanggang-ngayon ng maraming mga Kapampangan, subalit nagsimula itong maging bayang Tagalog nang ang Inglatera ay sinakop ang Maynila noong 1762 at ipinag-utos ni Gov. Hen. Simon de Anda y Salazar na ilipat ang maraming Tagalog ng Maynila at Laguna sa mga bayang ito sa pansamantalang panahon, habang ang Maynila ay nasa gitna ng Seven Years War sa pagitan ng mga Kastila at Ingles. Subalit, ng matapos ang digmaan noong 1764 sa bansa, hindi na nagawang umalis ng mga Tagalog sa mga lugar na ito.

http://bulacanpampanga.multiply.com/journa...MGA_BULAKENYO...

Jc2
I'm a living proof of a Bulakenyu Kapampangan, my mom's a Tagalog from Bulacan and my dad is a Kapampangan from Pampanga
Suzuka00
QUOTE (Jc2 @ Sep 29 2009, 04:35 PM) *
I'm a living proof of a Bulakenyu Kapampangan, my mom's a Tagalog from Bulacan and my dad is a Kapampangan from Pampanga

I am proud of having Kapampangan or central luzon heritage just like you....
filipinoy
my grandmother is kapampangan, grandfather is bulakenyo =]]]
silangan
Bulakenyos are not Kapampangans.

Pampanga of the ancient past was not actually inhabited by the present Kapampangan tribe that we know today.

The Tagalogs have overwhelmingly been occupying old Pampanga in ancient times. The Kapampangan tribe that we know today, originally came from the northwest, the areas around Zambales stretching north near Pangasinan.

The Tagalogs occupied a large area north and south of Manila including Pampanga since time immemorial. The Tagalogs who occupied ancient Pampanga were called Pampangos by the Spanish since they live in what is called Pampanga. But they were not Kapampangans. They were not the same people as the Kapampangan tribe that we know today.











trismegistos
QUOTE (silangan @ Oct 11 2009, 08:28 PM) *
Bulakenyos are not Kapampangans.

Pampanga of the ancient past was not actually inhabited by the present Kapampangan tribe that we know today.

The Tagalogs have overwhelmingly been occupying old Pampanga in ancient times. The Kapampangan tribe that we know today, originally came from the northwest, the areas around Zambales stretching north near Pangasinan.

The Tagalogs occupied a large area north and south of Manila including Pampanga since time immemorial. The Tagalogs who occupied ancient Pampanga were called Pampangos by the Spanish since they live in what is called Pampanga. But they were not Kapampangans. They were not the same people as the Kapampangan tribe that we know today.

Be sure to post any links or sources to justify your assumptions or theories for the sake of intellectual discussion. any wikipedia links could help. embarassedlaugh.gif

You are assuming Pampangos came from Zambales areas for they were kins with the Zambals. Right? But you forgot to mention that the ancient people around Rizal or Morong areas(who spoke Sinaunang Tagarug) even in the aetas of Caraballos mountain ranges spoke Zambalic languages too. So to go with your logical approach, Pampangos would have areas covering those areas as well not just the one you mentioned so in effect almost all areas of Central Luzon particularly the Great Plains of Central Luzon would be the original homeland of the Kapampangans. So now, you are a fan of linguistic theories which is the field of interest of Suzuka? embarassedlaugh.gif

In the will of Fernando Malang Balagtas, a Kapampangan sovereign, which acdg to the Muslim historian Rodil of the article the Ancient Rulers of Manila was one and the same with Lakandula, his territories include north of Pasig River from Tondo up to Ituy or Cagayan to the Pangasinan areas.
see... http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=214354

Have you heard of the first Philippines census done by Miguel de Loarca? He said the Moros of Luzon have two languages, the dividing line was the Manila river aka Pasig river with the north from Tondo, including the densely populated areas of Guiguinto, Batan or Bataan, Vitis or Betis, Lubao, etc were speaking one language. While the south of Pasig river speaking another language. Nevertheless, Miguel de Loarca concluded that the Moros having two languages were still considered as one people because they shared similar customs and culture.
-see posts by Katagalugan in this thread... http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=197796

QUOTE (Katagalugan @ Apr 25 2009, 08:23 AM) *
Miguel de Loarca clearly indicated "One language is spoken in all these encomiendas." namely: Tundo (Kapampangan word for "sleepy"), Vatan (Bataan), Vitis (Guagua), Macabebe, Candava, Pale (Apalit, which is near Postma's Interpreted Puliran), Calonpite (Calumpit, where Postma's Interpreted Gatbuca is located), Binto (Meycauayan), Malolos, Guiguinto, Catangalan (convergence of Obando [where Postma's Interpreted Binoangan is located] and Valenzuela, formerly Polo), and Caluya, which is presently Balagtas (not Caluys on elaput.org). Not all internet information are correct unless proved with authoritative references.

To continue, "Quite near the city, and along the coast from Tondo, which is situated on the other side of the river of this city, another language is spoken. This village of Tondo belongs to his Majesty, and possesses a population of one thousand three hundred and fifty Indians."

For your review with established references indicated on the document (some in Spanish):
http://www.archive.org/stream/thephilippin...gut/16501-8.txt
http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=lFzGU_...lt&resnum=3
http://www.bored.com/ebooks/History/philip...volume%205.html
http://www.assyrianrescue.com/ebooks/01/16501/4.html


QUOTE (Katagalugan @ Apr 27 2009, 03:24 AM) *
Based on Loarca's chronicles, Kapampangan empire (lowland Pampanga, lowland Bulacan, Nueva Ecija, lowland Bataan) wasn't surrounded by the Tagalogs before the arrival of Spanish but sat side-by-side with the Tagalogs. Only until the Spanish period where Tagalogs from Namayan (Rizal/Manila) immigrated to Bulacan and later Nueva Ecija/Tarlac while Bataan/Zambales from the Tagalogs of Cavite passing thru Corregidor.

Kapampangan empire then was more surrounded by Sambals than Tagalogs. Tagalogs comprised only the southern end of Kapampangan empire, where it was surrounded on the west by Ayta-Bataan on the highlands of Bataan particularly Mariveles, and Ayta-Ambala of Zambales, surrounded east by Agta-Remontado of the highlands of Tanay, Rizal and General Nakar in Quezon, surrounded north by Ayta-Mag-Anchi/Ayta-Abenlen of Tarlac and Ayta-Mag-Indi on the highlands of Pampanga.



Kapampangan was older than Tagalog. Kapampangan has long exposure to Hindu-Malay influence, which shows that it has more borrowed Malay words on its vocabulary than Tagalog. Out of more than 300 borrowed words from Malay, over 95% of it are of exact origin and the rest are very closely related. Tagalog has less than Kapampangan's borrowed words of exact origin.

Tagalog was formed from the common ancestor of Central Mindanaoan languages and Sambal/Kapampangan, which is the Philippine Proper outside Philippine-Gorontalo but it's not closely related to Kapampangan since Tagalog is 3rd generation from it or younger. Like English and Spanish came from common ancestor-the Indo-European group, they are basically different from each other since they have different direct ancestor. Tagalog's direct ancestor is proto-Tagalog-Bikol/Visayan from the branch of proto-Palawanic/Central Philippines. Tagalog has high lexical similarity to Kinaray-a, which is younger than Tagalog and came from proto-Bikol/Visayan of the other branch of Tagalog's ancestor.

Many languages borrowed words from Tagalog. The Agta Remontado/Sinauna of Eastern Rizal/Northern Quezon, which have different facial features, and cultures from the Tagalogs and located in isolation on the mountains, was one of them due to their absorption of Tagalog from lowlanders and not the other way around. Like Old Malay with extensive Sanskrit loan words, there are still similarities with the Late Modern Malay even it has broad infusion of Hindi, Arabic, Persian, Portuguese, Dutch and English. It is important to note that isolated Agta Remontado/Sinauna has no extensive borrowings from other languages except with Kapampangan and Sambal and lately from - Tagalog and yet it's not intelligible with other forms of Tagalog even to its nearest Rizal Tagalog.

Tagalog's supposed borrowed Kapampangan words aren't actually Kapampangan but from Old Malay that Kapampangan borrowed from it. While Sambal languages, whom instead of them changing the LWC (Tagalog, Kapampangan and Ilokano), Sambal speakers of Zambales, Bataan, and Tarlac absorbed words of major languages spoken by the lowlanders when they are trading with them from the mountains. It is very noticeable in Sambal dialects that there is very low cognate percentages between northern and southern dialects due to their absorption of major languages surrounding them; i.e., northern has lexical similarities to Ilokano, while southern to Kapampangan and Tagalog.


At the last paragraph, what Katagalugan was trying to say was Tagalog borrowed words from Old Malay came as secondhand from Kapampangan. In other words, those Old Malay words borrowed by the Tagalogs came indirectly via the Kapampangan.
In fact, when I am trying to read the Laguna copperplate inscription which was said to be a hybrid of Old Javan, Old Malay and Old Tagalog. It sounded more like Old Kapampangan to me as it was Old Tagalog.
And why Kapampangan has more direct cultural contacts or relations with Old Malay than the Tagalogs if you may ask. Because kapampangan migrated from Sumatra or Malacca or Java as many historians theorized? Or is it because of their trade and cultural links with these Malays from those areas(more plausible)? Is it because the ancient Kapampangans were more bold, arrogant, haughty or adventurous than their pacific Tagalog counterparts embarassedlaugh.gif ? As they were all over Malacca and East Timor as traders and in Aceh or Burma as mercenaries. If you will read the documents of the Portuguese explorer Tome Pires, you will have encountered the Luções.
QUOTE
In the 1500s, Portuguese writers mention a colony of Luções in Malacca sponsored by the Sultan of Malacca. They included many important personnel in the government of the sultan and merchants like one Surya Diraja a pepper trader who annually sent 175 tons of the valued spice to China. The sultan also hired a Lusung fleet when he attempted to wrest control of his city from the Portuguese in 1525.

The Sultan of Aceh hired Lusung ships and warriors when he attempted to gain control of the Straits of Malacca in 1529. The Luções also reportedly fought for the Menangkabau kingdom, and for both sides during the war between Burma and Siam in 1547.

In 1550, the Ming dynasty banned overseas trade as part of their overall anti-trade policy. According to Spanish sources during the Philippine invasion of Miguel Lopéz de Legaspi it was the Luções who filled in the gap handling the trade in Chinese goods throughout the region from their ports in Lusung. Apparently some junks still managed to reach Lusung Dao ("Golden Luzon") famed for its gold despite the Ming ban.

In 1545, the Portuguese explorer Pedro Fidalgo was driven to Luzon from Brunei by a storm and describes it as lying between nine and 22 degrees north latitude at its most southern and northern tips respectively. According to Fidalgo, the island was so rich in gold that the natives would give two pezoes in gold for one in silver despite the fact that they were acquainted with the relative value of these metals in China.

The gold was an important part of trade with the sultanate of Brunei with which Lusung had special relations. When Magellan arrived in this area, the Sultan of Brunei was highly dependent on a Lusung prince, who was widely feared throughout the region and who acted as "captain-general" of the sultan's fleet. Even across the bay from Brunei, the sultan reportedly had a fearsome "heathen" enemy whose city equaled that of the sultanate's capital.

Lusung ships carrying spices, gold, Chinese goods and other items regularly plied the seas of Southeast Asia and their pilots became important to the Portuguese in making contacts with both China and Japan. Lusung ships including some of Surya Diraja played a vital role in the first official Portuguese visit to China.

Bras Bayão, the Portuguese crown representative in Brunei, recommended Lusung pilots as "discoverers" for missions beyond China to Japan and indeed these seafarers played that role in the first official visit to Japan in 1543.

btw, Luções was the Portuguese name for the people of the island of Lução, which is still the Portuguese name for Luzon island in the Philippines. In Latin maps, Luzon was known as Luçonia or Lussonia both derived from Lução.

The original homeland of the ancient Tagalogs is Batangas or Koumintang. My own speculation is they had a headway and was able to encroached to the Kapampangan territories south of Pasig river when during the aftermath of the Mt. Pinatubo eruption, the Bisayan-Chinese-Arab blooded Sultan Bolkeiah of Brunei, Sulu and Maguindanao invaded Luzon and defeated Raja Gambang, who was said to be a descendant of Wahi Arduja or Urduja of Tawalishi or Shilifoshi or Sanfotsi. And Selalila or Soliman I, the son of the daughter of Raja Gambang with her marriage with Sultan Bolkeiah/Raja Baguinda/Nakoda Ragam, established the fort city of Manila to countercheck Tondo for Brunei's trading interest. And the islamization of Luzon happened during that era. The Islamization was not as established as the Spaniards initially had thought, in order to justify the colonization of the isles and to save the pagans from their infidel faiths, as most of the Indios were still practicing Shamanistic or animistic faiths and only their elites or maharlikas became Moros initially and before that Hindus or Buddhists.
In a parallel manner, during the invasion of Manila by the Spaniards, the latter made use of the Bisayans and the Koumintangs to defeat the Macabebe ruler, Raja Tarik Soliman along with his Hagonoy and Macabebe warriors during the Battle of Bangkusay, a decisive battle with the defeat of the latter paved the way for the easy conquest of much of Luzon. Can we therefore say, there was a homogeneity or centrality of power on those areas something more of a kingdom or a state covering much of Luzon and not multi-tribal as initially thought by caucasian historians? Lakandula's neutrality might have an impact on that defeat and Lakandula was especially generous to the Spaniards for he gave them his supply of gunpowder to aid in the pacification of Luzon. Lots of OT's in there embarassedlaugh.gif . Sultan Bolkeiah as well as his descendants might have preferred the Koumintang language as it was more mutually intelligible with the Bisayan languages at the same manner the Spaniards particularly the missionary priests found it easier to learn Tagalog for evangelical purpose.
Suzuka00
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Oct 11 2009, 10:58 PM) *
In the will of Fernando Malang Balagtas, a Kapampangan sovereign, which acdg to the Muslim historian Rodil of the article the Ancient Rulers of Manila was one and the same with Lakandula, his territories include north of Pasig River from Tondo up to Ituy or Cagayan to the Pangasinan areas.
see... http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=214354

Ibanag,Itawit,Isneg/Apayao,Agta(inc. sinauna) of East Luzon and the Idioms of the east of Luzon have similarities to Kapampangan as well,they both use Tam or Tamu for we,these Idioms are now spoken by a minority as Kapampangan is...

The legend of the Gaddangs(a people from east luzon) say that there were people from Sumatra that came and be made as gods and also there is the will of Pansonum..
QUOTE
In a parallel manner, during the invasion of Manila by the Spaniards, the latter made use of the Bisayans and the Koumintans to defeat the Macabebe ruler Tarik Soliman along with his Hagonoy and Macabebe warriors which paved the way for the conquest of much of Luzon. Lakandula's neutrality might have an impact on that defeat and Lakandula was especially generous to the Spaniards for he gave them his supply of gunpowder to aid in the pacification of Luzon. Lots of OT's in there . Sultan Bolkeiah as well as his descendants might have preferred the Koumintang language as it was more mutually intelligible with the Bisayan languages.


Actually,if the Spanish colonization did not happen the Tagalog and Iluko will not have a big population of speakers in Luzon and will be the minority in Luzon,It will be the Kapampangan having the most speakers ...

Manila was given to the empire of Brunei before the spanish conquest as a consequence of the defeat of the death of Lakan Gambang with the Soliman dynasty being the new ruling clan.
silangan
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Oct 11 2009, 11:58 PM) *
Be sure to post any links or sources to justify your assumptions or theories for the sake of intellectual discussion. any wikipedia links could help. embarassedlaugh.gif

You are assuming Pampangos came from Zambales areas for they were kins with the Zambals. Right? But you forgot to mention that the ancient people around Rizal or Morong areas(who spoke Sinaunang Tagarug) even in the aetas of Caraballos mountain ranges spoke Zambalic languages too. So to go with your logical approach, Pampangos would have areas covering those areas as well not just the one you mentioned so in effect almost all areas of Central Luzon particularly the Great Plains of Central Luzon would be the original homeland of the Kapampangans. So now, you are a fan of linguistic theories which is the field of interest of Suzuka? embarassedlaugh.gif

In the will of Fernando Malang Balagtas, a Kapampangan sovereign, which acdg to the Muslim historian Rodil of the article the Ancient Rulers of Manila was one and the same with Lakandula, his territories include north of Pasig River from Tondo up to Ituy or Cagayan to the Pangasinan areas.
see... http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=214354

Have you heard of the first Philippines census done by Miguel de Loarca? He said the Moros of Luzon have two languages, the dividing line was the Manila river aka Pasig river with the north from Tondo, including the densely populated areas of Guiguinto, Batan or Bataan, Vitis or Betis, Lubao, etc were speaking one language. While the south of Pasig river speaking another language. Nevertheless, Miguel de Loarca concluded that the Moros having two languages were still considered as one people because they shared similar customs and culture.
-see posts by Katagalugan in this thread... http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=197796





At the last paragraph, what Katagalugan was trying to say was Tagalog borrowed words from Old Malay came as secondhand from Kapampangan. In other words, those Old Malay words borrowed by the Tagalogs came indirectly via the Kapampangan.
In fact, when I am trying to read the Laguna copperplate inscription which was said to be a hybrid of Old Javan, Old Malay and Old Tagalog. It sounded more like Old Kapampangan to me as it was Old Tagalog.
And why Kapampangan has more direct cultural contacts or relations with Old Malay than the Tagalogs if you may ask. Because kapampangan migrated from Sumatra or Malacca or Java as many historians theorized? Or is it because of their trade and cultural links with these Malays from those areas(more plausible)? Is it because the ancient Kapampangans were more bold, arrogant, haughty or adventurous than their pacific Tagalog counterparts embarassedlaugh.gif ? As they were all over Malacca and East Timor as traders and in Aceh or Burma as mercenaries. If you will read the documents of the Portuguese explorer Tome Pires, you will have encountered the Luções.

btw, Luções was the Portuguese name for the people of the island of Lução, which is still the Portuguese name for Luzon island in the Philippines. In Latin maps, Luzon was known as Luçonia or Lussonia both derived from Lução.

The original homeland of the ancient Tagalogs is Batangas or Koumintang. My own speculation is they had a headway and was able to encroached to the Kapampangan territories south of Pasig river when during the aftermath of the Mt. Pinatubo eruption, the Bisayan-Chinese-Arab blooded Sultan Bolkeiah of Brunei, Sulu and Maguindanao invaded Luzon and defeated Raja Gambang, who was said to be a descendant of Wahi Arduja or Urduja of Tawalishi or Shilifoshi or Sanfotsi. And Selalila or Soliman I, the son of the daughter of Raja Gambang with her marriage with Sultan Bolkeiah/Raja Baguinda/Nakoda Ragam, established the fort city of Manila to countercheck Tondo for Brunei's trading interest. And the islamization of Luzon happened during that era. The Islamization was not as established as the Spaniards initially had thought, in order to justify the colonization of the isles and to save the pagans from their infidel faiths, as most of the Indios were still practicing Shamanistic or animistic faiths and only their elites or maharlikas became Moros initially and before that Hindus or Buddhists.
In a parallel manner, during the invasion of Manila by the Spaniards, the latter made use of the Bisayans and the Koumintangs to defeat the Macabebe ruler, Raja Tarik Soliman along with his Hagonoy and Macabebe warriors during the Battle of Bangkusay, a decisive battle with the defeat of the latter paved the way for the easy conquest of much of Luzon. Can we therefore say, there was a homogeneity or centrality of power on those areas something more of a kingdom or a state covering much of Luzon and not multi-tribal as initially thought by caucasian historians? Lakandula's neutrality might have an impact on that defeat and Lakandula was especially generous to the Spaniards for he gave them his supply of gunpowder to aid in the pacification of Luzon. Lots of OT's in there embarassedlaugh.gif . Sultan Bolkeiah as well as his descendants might have preferred the Koumintang language as it was more mutually intelligible with the Bisayan languages at the same manner the Spaniards particularly the missionary priests found it easier to learn Tagalog for evangelical purpose.



And you believe all that? embarassedlaugh.gif Well, if you're the kind who would just close your eyes on the inconsistencies.

trismegistos
QUOTE (silangan @ Oct 12 2009, 06:50 PM) *
And you believe all that? embarassedlaugh.gif Well, if you're the kind who would just close your eyes on the inconsistencies.

I just go around with your theory, and now you found it unbelievable. embarassedlaugh.gif
silangan
QUOTE (Suzuka00 @ Oct 12 2009, 06:09 AM) *
Ibanag,Itawit,Isneg/Apayao,Agta(inc. sinauna) of East Luzon and the Idioms of the east of Luzon have similarities to Kapampangan as well,they both use Tam or Tamu for we,these Idioms are now spoken by a minority as Kapampangan is...

The legend of the Gaddangs(a people from east luzon) say that there were people from Sumatra that came and be made as gods and also there is the will of Pansonum..


Actually,if the Spanish colonization did not happen the Tagalog and Iluko will not have a big population of speakers in Luzon and will be the minority in Luzon,It will be the Kapampangan having the most speakers ...

Manila was given to the empire of Brunei before the spanish conquest as a consequence of the defeat of the death of Lakan Gambang with the Soliman dynasty being the new ruling clan.


The Tagalogs, Ilocanos and Bisayans are majority tribes since the beginning.
The Kapampangans are a small tribe that became big. They don't own ancient Pampanga.



trismegistos
QUOTE (silangan @ Oct 12 2009, 07:04 PM) *
The Tagalogs, Ilocanos and Bisayans are majority tribes since the beginning.
The Kapampangans are a small tribe that became big. They don't own ancient Pampanga.

in the census done by loarca, the number of people who spoke a language north of pasig river is greater or equal to the number of people who spoke another language south of pasig river. So, the small tribe that became big you are referring to could be the biggest tribe to begin with that get shrunk in the process and not the other way around. embarassedlaugh.gif
filipinoy
QUOTE (silangan @ Oct 12 2009, 05:04 PM) *
The Tagalogs, Ilocanos and Bisayans are majority tribes since the beginning.
The Kapampangans are a small tribe that became big. They don't own ancient Pampanga.

all big tribes were first a small tribe to begin with


jonathanrhino
QUOTE (filipinoy @ Oct 12 2009, 07:43 PM) *
all big tribes were first a small tribe to begin with


C'mon guys, we are quoting snippets of unverified third hand or even fourth hand information left and right. To me, these passages are not credible, be scientific here, we can not change history just because it's posted here at AF. Can we just accept that the Tagalogs and Kapampangans are equal brothers during the Spanish times, after all, these rivalry is now immaterial. Its immaterial to the present president, a Kapampangan who speaks less than passable English, ugly Tagalog and Kapampangan; and atrocious Ilocano and Bisaya. I agree with Silangan though, Kapampangans never owned Central Luzon. Suzuka, after Nueva Ecija, and Bulakan, what's the next province... embarassedlaugh.gif
trismegistos
QUOTE (jonathanrhino @ Oct 13 2009, 12:57 AM) *
C'mon guys, we are quoting snippets of unverified third hand or even fourth hand information left and right. To me, these passages are not credible, be scientific here, we can not change history just because it's posted here at AF. Can we just accept that the Tagalogs and Kapampangans are equal brothers during the Spanish times, after all, these rivalry is now immaterial. Its immaterial to the present president, a Kapampangan who speaks less than passable English, ugly Tagalog and Kapampangan; and atrocious Ilocano and Bisaya. I agree with Silangan though, Kapampangans never owned Central Luzon. Suzuka, after Nueva Ecija, and Bulakan, what's the next province... embarassedlaugh.gif

I beg to disagree that the Miguel de Loarca document is a secondhand info. He was the one who made the census himself. Tome Pires accounts of Lucoes is another firsthand account from his own observation. If we go by your logic, we have to discredit 90% of historical documents. embarassedlaugh.gif
Read the actual archives yourself before you judge that they were not authentic or they were flawed and thus any assumptions based upon them as flawed also.
But I agree the ancients have no concept of individual territorial ownership more of everything is owned by everyone. That's the problem with the so called ancestral domains.
And what is the present president got to do with this? he he
Technically, she is only 1/4 kapampangan, with 1/2 pangasinense, and 1/4 tagalog from her paternal grand mother from Cavite. Same amount of kapampangan blood as with FPJ, from the Gatbonton side.
Manuel Villar and Noynoy Aquino have more kapampangan blood in them than the present president. embarassedlaugh.gif
I agree that this discussion is immaterial in national interest more only for regional pride and we have too much 'crab mentality already'.
No one should judge a person by his creed, ethnic affiliation or color. We are all brothers.

Namaste!
jonathanrhino
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Oct 13 2009, 03:30 AM) *
I beg to disagree that the Miguel de Loarca document is a secondhand info. He was the one who made the census himself. Tome Pires accounts of Lucoes is another firsthand account from his own observation. If we go by your logic, we have to discredit 90% of historical documents. embarassedlaugh.gif


http://bulacanpampanga.multiply.com/journa...G_MGA_BULAKENYO --- invalid link, no author

http://www.archive.org/details/thephilippineisl16501gut --- apparently a description of a textbook by various athors, not copyrighted

http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=lFzGU_...%22&f=false ---description of a book by an American author, early 20th century who reinterpreted the famous Antonio Morga's book describing the Philippines....

http://www.bored.com/ebooks/History/philip...volume%205.html --- same book as above...

http://www.assyrianrescue.com/ebooks/01/16501/4.html --- invalid link


See my frustration? confused.gif I say that 90 % of cited documents are questionable, however I'm not a researcher. I want spoon-feeding because I'm not in the academe.
trismegistos
QUOTE (jonathanrhino @ Oct 13 2009, 03:15 AM) *
http://bulacanpampanga.multiply.com/journa...G_MGA_BULAKENYO --- invalid link, no author

http://www.archive.org/details/thephilippineisl16501gut --- apparently a description of a textbook by various athors, not copyrighted

http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=lFzGU_...%22&f=false ---description of a book by an American author, early 20th century who reinterpreted the famous Antonio Morga's book describing the Philippines....

http://www.bored.com/ebooks/History/philip...volume%205.html --- same book as above...

http://www.assyrianrescue.com/ebooks/01/16501/4.html --- invalid link


See my frustration? confused.gif I say that 90 % of cited documents are questionable, however I'm not a researcher. I want spoon-feeding because I'm not in the academe.

Since you want spoonfeeding, I quoted from one of those links(and it doesn't look like secondhand nor thirdhand info to me and since you seems like a smart guy, go figure out and "reinterpret" it yourself embarassedlaugh.gif ...

QUOTE
Capo 3o

_Qe_ Trata de la ysla de lucon


_ysla de lucon_ La ysla e lucon as la mas principal ysla de todo lo
descubierto porques poblada de mucha gte es muy abastecida de aRoz
y muchas minas donde se a sacado gran cantidad de oro especial de
la prouincia de los ylocos. esta Repartida EN tres prouincias digo
la principal della la principal es donde esta fundada la ciudad de
manilla cabeca deste Reyno a donde Reside El gouernador, en ella
ay el mayor concurso de espanoles qe Ay en todas las yslas, legua y
media de la ciudad esta El puerto de cauite donde Vienen las naos qe
vienen de nueua espana en el Rio desta ciudad entran los nauios qe
vienen de china qe de hordinario aCuden muchos al Rescate tiene aqui
su magd vn fuerte con vn alcayde tres officiales Reales proueydos por
su magd vn sargento mayor y Vn alferez mayor proueydos por su magd vn
alguacil mayor de corte vn Alguacil mayor de la ciudad vn secretario de
gouernacion, escriuano de Cauildo, quatro escriuanos publicos. Reside
En esta ciudad El obpo de todas las yslas qe tiene en ella su silla y
la yglesia catedral. Ay siete Regidores En esta ciudad los tres son
proprietarios proueydos por su magd qe son El Capitan Juan de Moron
don luis enrriquez, po de herrera, los quatro son Proueydos por El
goueror qe son El capitan grauiel de Ribera, El capitan Joan maldonado
el capitan Bergara El capitan Ro aluarez. Ay vn monasterio de frayles
augustinos y otro de frayles descalcos, y vna casa de la compania.

Esta esta ciudad fundada en medio de vna ensenada grande y terna
de Box cerca de Veynte leguas, toda esta ensenada es muy fertil y
Abundante, esta poblada de moros yndustriados de los de burney. El
Rio aRiua desta ciudad como cinco leguas tiene vna laguna de Agua
dulce qe terna de box mas de Veynte leguas tierra abundante de aRoz
y algodon Ricos de oro digo qe lo tienen en sus joyas qe Por aqui no
ay minas desta generacion de moros estan Poblados hasta los pueblos
de las batangas qe Adelante se dira la cantidad de gte qe son, destos
moros esta Poblada la ysla de mindoro y la de luban y no se Allan en
otra pte de las yslas porqe los de la prouja de Camarines qe es la
cabeca desta ysla qe esta a la Vanda deL leste que hace estrecho por
donde entran las naos qe Vienen de nueua espana es gente qe son casi
Pintados y aun los de la otra caueca desta ysla cae A la vanda del
sueste hacia los japones tanbien son casi semejantes a los pintados
aunqe No se pintan como ellos y traen diferentemente oradadas las
orejas porqe La pintura destas dos prouincias es poca, los pintados
pintan se todo El cuerpo muy galanamente y los moros no se pintan
ninguna cosa ni se oradan las orejas ni traen El cauello largo
sino cortado al contrario de los visayas qe lo traen largo aunqe
las mugeres de los moros se horadan las orejas pero muy feamente,
de suerte qe los moros poseen la tierra mas fertil desta ysla pero
no tienen sino esta ensenada de manilla y quince leguas de costa. Ay
en la comarca desta ciudad las encomiendas siguientes:--

La encomienda de Vatan qe tiene ochocientos hombres--

La encomienda de vitis qe terna como siete mill hombres--

La encomienda De macabebe qe tiene dos mill y seyscientos hombres--

La encomienda De calonpite qe terna tres mill hombres--

La encomienda de Candaua, tiene dos mill hombres--

Junto a esta encomienda esta vn pueblo qe De su Antiguedad le llaman
Castilla pequeno ques de su magd tiene setenta hombres--

La encomienda de Pale tiene trecientos hombres.--

La encomienda de binto que tiene quatrocientos hombres.--

La encomienda de malolos tiene ochocientos hombres--

La encomienda de guiguinto tiene quatrocientos hombres

La encomienda de malolos tiene ochocientos hombres

La encomienda de Caluya qe es de su magd tiene seyscientos hombres

en todas estas Encomiendas aRiba dhas solian auer vn alcalde mayor
y hagora despues qe Vino don goncalo proueyo los siguientes.--

_Corregidor de batan_. En batan vn Corregidor qe
tiene de salario ciento y cinquenta pessos.--

_allde_ mayor de lubao. En lubao otro que tiene de salario trezios pos.

_allde_ myor de calonpite En calonpite y macaueue otro trezios pos.

_allde_ mayor de candaua. En candaua y en otras dos encomiendas,
otro dozientos pos

_allde_ myor de bulacan. En bulacan y su comarca otro con ducientos
Pesos de salario.

todas estas encomiendas hablan vna lengua y aca junta a la ciudad
por la costa hablan otra desde tondo qe es de la otra vanda del Rio
desta ciudad tiene Este Pueblo de tondo mil y trecientos y cinquenta
yndios son de su magd

El pueblo de quiapo qe es tambien de su magd

El pueblo de pandacan qe es de vn encomendero, tiene ciento y
cinquenta hombres--

El Pueblo de santa Maria qe es de vn encomendero qe tiene [_blank
space in MS_.]

El Pueblo de capaques ques de su magd tiene ducientos hombres

La encomienda de pasic ques de Vn encomendero qe tiene dos mil hombres

La encomienda de tagui ques de otro encomendero qe tiene seyscientos
y sesenta hombres--

La encomienda De taytay qe tiene quinientos Yndios. todas estas
encomiendas desde tondo estan en el Rio de manilla asta llegar a
la laguna, y es juridicion todo de vn Alcalde mayor el qual tiene
proueydo vn theniente en tondo, lleva El Alcalde mayor de salario
ducientos Pesos y El teniente ciento-- toda la laguna tiene otro
Alcalde mayor en las poblaciones siguientes--
taolander
^what's that listing of encomiendas ? confused.gif

you just found an old scroll of parchment or a tome in a ruined cloister, did you ? LOL
trismegistos
QUOTE (taolander @ Oct 13 2009, 04:48 AM) *
^what's that listing of encomiendas ? confused.gif

you just found an old scroll of parchment or a tome in a ruined cloister, did you ? LOL

nope, i just time travelled via astral travelling and to borrow the words from cayce, i read the akashic records. embarassedlaugh.gif

you, folks, really like spoonfeeding embarassedlaugh.gif .the listing of encomiendas from a reinterpretation or rather a translation...

QUOTE
Chapter Third

_Of the Island of Lucon_


_Island of Lucon_. The island of Lucon is the most important island of
the whole group which has been discovered. It is thickly populated and
well-provided with rice and gold-mines. These mines have yielded much
gold, especially in the province of Ylocos. This island is divided
into three provinces, the chief of which is that wherein was founded
the city of Manilla, the capital of this kingdom and the seat of the
governor. Hither flock more Spaniards than are found in all the other
islands. One league and a half from this city is the port of Cavite,
where the ships from Nueva Espana anchor. The ships from China enter
also through the river of this city, for they usually come in great
numbers to carry on their trading. His Majesty has a fortress here,
with its governor, three royal officers, one major, and one royal
standard-bearer--all appointed by his Majesty. There are also two
alguacils-mayor--one of court and one of the city, one government
secretary, one notary for the cabildo, and four notaries-public. Manila
is also the seat of the bishop of all the islands; in this city he
resides and has his cathedral church. There are also seven regidors in
this city; three of them are proprietary magistrates, and are appointed
by his Majesty--namely, Captain Juan de Moron, Don Luis Enrriquez, and
Pedro de Herrera. The other four are appointed by the governor--namely,
Captain Graviel de Ribera, Captain Joan Maldonado, Captain Bergara, and
Captain Rodrigo Alvarez. There is also a convent of Augustinian monks,
one of descalced friars, and one house of the Company [of Jesus].

The city is situated midway on the shore of a large bay, about twenty
leagues in circumference. The region all about this bay is fertile,
and well-provisioned. The inhabitants are Moros, instructed in that
faith by those of Burney. The river has a fresh-water lake, about
five leagues above this city; it is more than twenty leagues in
circumference. The district abounds in rice and cotton. The people
possess much gold in the way of trinkets, but there are no mines in
this region. This same race of Moros have made settlements as far as
the villages of the Batangas; their number will be told later. They
have also peopled the island of Mindoro and that of Luban, but they
are to be found in no other region of these islands. The inhabitants
of the province of Camarines at the eastern end of this island,
through whose strait arrive the ships from Nueva Espana, resemble
the Pintados; and even those at the other and southeastern [_sc._
northern] end of this island, toward the Japanese, also closely
resemble the Pintados--although they do not tattoo _[pintan]_
themselves as the latter do, and bore their ears differently; for in
these two provinces there is but little tattooing. The Pintados tattoo
the whole body very gorgeously; but the Moros do not tattoo themselves
at all, nor do they bore their ears. Unlike the men of Visaya, the
Moros wear their hair short, although their women bore their ears,
but in a very ugly manner. The Moros inhabit only this district of
the bay of Manilla. with a fifteen-league coast, the most fertile
land of this island. The following encomiendas are to be found in
the neighborhood of this city:

The encomienda of Vatan, eight hundred men.

The encomienda of Vitis, with about seven thousand men.

The encomienda of Macabebe, with two thousand six hundred men.

The encomienda of Calonpite, with about three thousand men.

The encomienda of Candava, with two thousand men.

Near this encomienda is a village which, on account of its antiquity,
is called Little Castilla. It belongs to his Majesty, and has a
population of seventy.

The encomienda of Pale, with three hundred men.

The encomienda of Binto, with four hundred men.

The encomienda of Malolos, eight hundred men.

The encomienda of Guiguinto, four hundred men.

The encomienda of Catangalan, with eight hundred men.

The encomienda of Caluya belongs to his Majesty, and has six hundred
men.

Formerly all the above-mentioned encomiendas had one alcalde-mayor,
but since Don Gonzalo came he has appointed the following officials:

_Corregidor of Batan_. In Batan, a corregidor, with a salary of one
hundred and fifty pesos.

_Alcalde-mayor of Lubao_. In Lubao, another, with a salary of three
hundred pesos.

_Alcalde-mayor of Calompite_. In Calompite and Macaveve, another,
with a salary of three hundred pesos.

_Alcalde-mayor of Candava_. In Candava and two other encomiendas,
another, with a salary of two hundred pesos.

_Alcalde-mayor of Bulacan._ In Bulacan and its vicinity, another,
with a salary of two hundred pesos.

One language is spoken in all these encomiendas. Quite near the city,
and along the coast from Tondo, which is situated on the other side
of the river of this city, another language is spoken. This village
of Tondo belongs to his Majesty, and possesses a population of one
thousand three hundred and fifty Indians.

The village of Quiapo also belongs to his Majesty.

The village of Pandacan, which is held by an encomendero, has one
hundred and fifty men.

The village of Santa Maria is under an encomendero, and has a
population of [_blank space in MS_.].

The village of Capaques has two hundred men, and belongs to his
Majesty.

The encomienda of Pasic has one encomendero, and contains two
thousand men.

The encomienda of Tagui is under one encomendero, and has six hundred
and sixty men.

The encomienda of Taytay is inhabited by five hundred Indians. All
these encomiendas are situated along the river of Manilla, from Tondo
to the lake, and are under the jurisdiction of one alcalde-mayor,
who appoints a deputy for Tondo. The alcalde-mayor has a salary of
two hundred pesos; and his deputy, one hundred.

Around the lake the following settlements are under the jurisdiction
of another alcalde-mayor:

The encomienda of Maribago, three hundred men.

The encomienda of Tabuc, with [_blank space in MS._].

The encomienda of Vahi, with two thousand five hundred men.

The encomienda of Pila, with one thousand six hundred men.

The encomienda of Mayay, with four hundred men.

The encomienda of Lumban, with one thousand five hundred men.

The encomienda of Maracta belongs to his Majesty, and has six
hundred men.

The encomienda of Balian, with six hundred men.

The encomienda of Sinoloan, with seven hundred men.

The encomienda of Moron, with one thousand one hundred men.

The last two encomiendas have a much larger population; but they
are hostile, and live in the mountains. All the above-mentioned
encomiendas are found around the lake. Turning toward the coast of
Manilla, on the other side of Tondo, we find the following villages:

On the coast near Manila are Laguo, Malahat, Longalo, Palanac, Vacol,
Minacaya, and Cavite. All these villages are in the neighborhood
of Cavite, and belong to his Majesty, to whom they pay tribute. On
entering the bay opposite the other point, which is called Batan, is:

_Alcalde-mayor for the coast_. The encomienda of Maragondon, with four
hundred and fifty men. This encomienda of Maragondon, together with
all the above-mentioned coast villages which belong to his Majesty,
is under the jurisdiction of one alcalde-mayor, who receives a salary
of three hundred pesos.

Outside of the bay of Manilla, on the east, are the villages of the
lowlands of Tuley, which belong to his Majesty and pay him tribute.

_Corregidor of Balayan_. The encomienda of Balayan has six hundred men,
with one encomendero; one corregidor is appointed here, who receives
a salary of one hundred and fifty pesos.

_Alcalde-mayor of Vonvon_. The district around the lake of Bombon
has a population of about three thousand four hundred. Then come
the villages of the Batangas district, with one thousand men and
one encomendero. These two encomiendas are under the jurisdiction
of another alcalde-mayor. All the land between Tuley and Batangas
is inhabited by Moros, who, as we have said above, have abundance of
cotton, and possess much gold handed down to them by their ancestors.

Proceeding about three leagues from the settlement of Batangas,
which we mentioned above, along the coast toward Camarines, we come
to the river of Lobo, on which are about a hundred Indians. Two
leagues from Lobo is Maribago, where there are gold mines; here dwell
about one hundred Indians. Farther on is the village of Biga, with a
population of about one hundred and fifty Indians. Next is Galvan,
with about another hundred and fifty Indians. All these villages
have one encomendero. Farther along the coast is the river Dayun,
with about six hundred Indians; and next, the river Tubi, on which,
in the tingues [hills], are about five hundred Indians.

Next are the river Carilaya and other small settlements, with a total
population of about five hundred Indians.

Still farther is the river Caguayan, with about two hundred
Indians. All this territory has three encomenderos, and is all under
the jurisdiction of the alcalde-mayor of Mindoro. Here begins the
province of Camarines, although a few settlements of little importance
may be found between the two regions.
taolander
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Oct 13 2009, 05:23 AM) *
nope, i just time travelled via astral travelling and to borrow the words from cayce, i read the akashic records. embarassedlaugh.gif

you, folks, really like spoonfeeding embarassedlaugh.gif .the listing of encomiendas from a reinterpretation or rather a translation...


LOL just wanted to know who it wrote and when. BTW i always thought that apart from akashic records, it was a substance of some kind, like aether or the 5th element. embarassedlaugh.gif Edgar Cayce more entertaining than informative though.
trismegistos
QUOTE (taolander @ Oct 13 2009, 05:50 AM) *
LOL just wanted to know who it wrote and when. BTW i always thought that apart from akashic records, it was a substance of some kind, like aether or the 5th element. embarassedlaugh.gif Edgar Cayce more entertaining than informative though.

I thought you were following the discussion. lol
The document under scrutiny by our inquisitive friends is the census done by Miguel de Loarca at 1582. Census was done by counting only the able-bodied taxpayers, which are men of certain age. So you have to multiply it by three to include the females, the offspring and those who were in the boondocks to evade paying taxes. embarassedlaugh.gif

Astral travelling or soul travel is more on the Fourth dimension or the Astral plane while aether or akasha or the 5th element is the subtlest, the all in all, the quintessence. Concentrating on the 5th principle can get you in a trance and thus access to the akashic records of past, present and future. icon_smile.gif
silangan
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Oct 12 2009, 08:10 PM) *
in the census done by loarca, the number of people who spoke a language north of pasig river is greater or equal to the number of people who spoke another language south of pasig river. So, the small tribe that became big you are referring to could be the biggest tribe to begin with that get shrunk in the process and not the other way around. embarassedlaugh.gif


Even now, although not as many as in the past, Tagalog still has dialects.

The Tagalogs who live north of Pasig spoke a Tagalog dialect.

I wonder how could a supposedly large tribe who gained the favor of the Spaniards got shrunk?.....and the Tagalogs, who were hunted down by the Spaniards, multiplied?

Was the Bible written in Kapampangan baybayin? If they were really a "large tribe" and "noble tribe" and "ruling tribe", as what some people here like to picture them, then the bible should have been written in Kapampangan first before the other tribes.





trismegistos
QUOTE (silangan @ Oct 13 2009, 07:51 PM) *
Even now, although not as many as in the past, Tagalog still has dialects.

The Tagalogs who live north of Pasig spoke a Tagalog dialect.

I wonder how could a supposedly large tribe who gained the favor of the Spaniards got shrunk?.....and the Tagalogs, who were hunted down by the Spaniards, multiplied?

Was the Bible written in Kapampangan baybayin? If they were really a "large tribe" and "noble tribe" and "ruling tribe", as what some people here like to picture them, then the bible should have been written in Kapampangan first before the other tribes.

QUOTE
The Moros inhabit only this district of
the bay of Manilla. with a fifteen-league coast, the most fertile
land of this island. The following encomiendas are to be found in
the neighborhood of this city:

The encomienda of Vatan, eight hundred men.

The encomienda of Vitis, with about seven thousand men.

The encomienda of Macabebe, with two thousand six hundred men.

The encomienda of Calonpite, with about three thousand men.

The encomienda of Candava, with two thousand men.

Near this encomienda is a village which, on account of its antiquity,
is called Little Castilla. It belongs to his Majesty, and has a
population of seventy.

The encomienda of Pale, with three hundred men.

The encomienda of Binto, with four hundred men.

The encomienda of Malolos, eight hundred men.

The encomienda of Guiguinto, four hundred men.

The encomienda of Catangalan, with eight hundred men.

The encomienda of Caluya belongs to his Majesty, and has six hundred
men.

One language is spoken in all these encomiendas. Quite near the city,
and along the coast from Tondo, which is situated on the other side
of the river of this city, another language is spoken. This village
of Tondo belongs to his Majesty, and possesses a population of one
thousand three hundred and fifty Indians.

QUOTE
La encomienda de Vatan qe tiene ochocientos hombres--

La encomienda de vitis qe terna como siete mill hombres--

La encomienda De macabebe qe tiene dos mill y seyscientos hombres--

La encomienda De calonpite qe terna tres mill hombres--

La encomienda de Candaua, tiene dos mill hombres--

Junto a esta encomienda esta vn pueblo qe De su Antiguedad le llaman
Castilla pequeno ques de su magd tiene setenta hombres--

La encomienda de Pale tiene trecientos hombres.--

La encomienda de binto que tiene quatrocientos hombres.--

La encomienda de malolos tiene ochocientos hombres--

La encomienda de guiguinto tiene quatrocientos hombres

La encomienda de malolos tiene ochocientos hombres

La encomienda de Caluya qe es de su magd tiene seyscientos hombres


todas estas encomiendas hablan vna lengua y aca junta a la ciudad
por la costa hablan otra desde tondo qe es de la otra vanda del Rio
desta ciudad tiene Este Pueblo de tondo mil y trecientos y cinquenta
yndios son de su magd

silangan
Those Encomiendas were populated by Tagalogs. They spoke different dialects though.
filipinoy
maybe manila is the transitional area between kapampangan & tagalogs, i mean you can't really draw a border where they speak different right when you cross the line since they co-existed with each other peacefully & inter-marriage is common
trismegistos
QUOTE (filipinoy @ Oct 15 2009, 08:08 PM) *
maybe manila is the transitional area between kapampangan & tagalogs, i mean you can't really draw a border where they speak different right when you cross the line since they co-existed with each other peacefully & inter-marriage is common

I agree. Let Nick Joaquin describe to us, this alliance between the Tagalogs and the Kapampangan. But before that an introduction by a wise poster about this article by Nick Joaquin...
QUOTE (jonathanrhino @ Mar 26 2009, 12:08 AM) *
'Written imaginatively yet grounded on facts. No wonder, Nick Joaquin is a celebrated Filipino writer. biggthumpup.gif

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=197796
QUOTE
THE TAGALOG - KAPAMPANGAN ALLIANCE

BY NICK JOAQUIN


The following excerpts are lifted from The Wicked
Accomplices, the first chapter of the best-selling
book, The Aquinos Of Tarlac by national artist,
Nick Joaquin, and first published in 1972 by Solar
Publishing Corporation in Mandaluyong, Metro Manila
in the Philippines. The webmaster is highly
recommending the book to everyone.


The Americans quickly....had grasped a fact the Spaniards
had long been aware of: that the Tagalog-Pampangan area,
comprehended between Batangas in the south and Tarlac
in the north, formed the vital core of the country;
was HEARTLAND, was the metropolitan area; in relation
to which the other centers of culture in the islands
(e.g. Vigan and Cebu) were outposts.
The reason this heartland became the ground of
history may be that, in the 16th century, it was
the only region of some size where the native
tribes had achieved a measure of unity. Older and
richer might be the kingdoms of Cebu and Jolo, but
these were small city-states isolated by hostility.
The king of Cebu, for instance had for enemy the
tiny isle of Mactan, which was just across his bay.
In contrast, the neighboring kingdoms on the Pasig
- Manila and Tondo - were allies, and evidently
belonged to a confederacy loosely binding the realms
all over the Tagalog-Pampangan region. Not divide
and conquer, but unite and rule, was the policy
made possible by this domain.
The Spaniards were quick to see how smoother
an avenue was afforded by the coherence of this
region, and their conquest of it was to make
official what unity they found there. Here they
concentrated their colonizing efforts, with the
result that the Tagalog and Pampango were to
become the most "politicized" of Filipinos,
accounting for the arrogance they have traditionally
been accused of. In fact, one friar, Gaspar de
San Agustin, has described the Pampangans as "the
Castilians among these Indios".
Nevertheless the idea of national unity was
to begin as this unity of the Tagalog and
Pampangan country, from which the Spaniards
created a Seat of State (the city of Manila and
the province of Pampanga were the basic
foundations) and a Seat of the Church (the
Archbishop of Manila, which embraces Pampango
ground, is the primal See of the country) thus
fusing into a unit the old Tagalog and Pampangan
realms.

The role of this region can be read in our flag,
where each ray of the sun stands for either a
Tagalog or Pampangan province. But even the
stars in the flag proclaim this role, being three in
number because the Tagalog and Pampangan
fought to keep them at least three. For good or
evil, it was these two tribes, these wicked
accomplices, that determined not only the shape
of our history but even of our geography. The form
now called the Philippines has maintained through
almost four centuries of steady assault from within
and without only because Spain (which, through
those centuries, never had more than 5,000 Spanish
troops in the islands) could rely on the Tagalog-
Pampangan alliance to keep the form (now called
the Philippines) from disintegrating. The alliance even
antedated the coming of Tagalogs and Pampangans
to these shores. One scholar theorizes
that the two tribes emigrated from neighboring
regions in Java (or Sumatra ?) and continued in
the new country their association in the old - a
theory backed by the tradition that the Prince
Balagtas who founded a dynasty in Pampanga was,
even before his coming to Luzon (sometime perhaps
between 1335 and 1380), already a Tagalog-
Pampangan mestizo, his mother being of the
royal house of the Kingdom of Sapa (now Manila's
Sta. Ana district) before she was given in marriage
to a sovereign of the Madjapahit Empire in Java.
The coming of Prince Balagtas and his entourage
apparently capped a series of waves of Pampangan
emigration to Luzon and had a definite intent: to
consolidate into a kingdom all these Pampangan
colonies believed to be already occupying an area
that extended from Manila Bay to the wilds of
Cagayan. A true consolidation was never effected,
nor did a kingdom arise, but from Prince Balagtas,
according to tradition, descended the native
principalia, or nobility, that included such families
as the Soliman, the Lakandula, the Gatbonton,
the Gatchalian, the Gatmaitan, the Gatdula, the
Malang, the Puno, and the Kapulong -- families
in veins ran a mixed Tagalog-Pampangan blood,
and in the knots of whose marryings the two tribes
became so intertwined as to form a single growth.
Geography was to compound the knots, for the
Rio Grande de Pampanga empties into Manila Bay,
where also ends the Tagalog's Rio Pasig; and in
the region between the two deltas was common
ground for confederacy. After Manila (a city ruled
by a Tagalog-Pampangan house) was seized by
the Spaniards, the ousted heir, Soliman III
(Tarik Soliman or Bambalito? - O.S.) presently
reappeared, on Manila Bay, with a Tagalog-Pampangan
fleet (from Macabebe and Hagonoy - O.S.) which
the Spaniards routed in the Battle of Bangkusay.
That was in 1571, the year Manila was established
as the capital city, the seat of power, and Pampanga
was organized into a province, the premier local
government of the land, under Spain. Although the
Tagalog and Pampangan were to unite later in
several revolts, the Battle of Bangkusay can be
said to have been their last joint engagement
under the old alliance. Only three years later, in
1574, the Tagalogs and Pampangans are being
inducted into the army they battled in Bangkusay,
and a new alliance has begun.

More info about the Tagalog-Kapampangan alliance...
http://bulacanpampanga.multiply.com/
QUOTE
The provinces of Bulacan and Pampanga are homes of rich cultural heritage. Both had been divided administratively and politically, but are still one in so many reasons. Their convergences are distinguishable since our ancestor’s time, and until now, the two share many commonalities.

The historic Battle of Bangkusay in June 3, 1571 serves as a memoriam of the first written alliance of the Bulakenyos and the Kapampangans. Both stood prominent in this event, being the first battle ever in the country with freedom as its main cause and mission against the Spaniards.

When the so-called Provincia de Pampanga was established by the Spaniards on December 11, 1571, the Province of Bulacan is found to be part of its original territory. It is not surprising if the written accounts and reports of the encomiendas of La Pampanga by Don Miguel de Loarca in 1582 and by Gobernador-Heneral Gomes Perez Dasmariñas in 1591 gave clues that the first capital of Pampanga was Bulakan (the town).

Until such time, the Expendiente of Pampanga revealed that Bulacan, as a province, was officially separated from its matrix, Pampanga, in 1755. Suffice it to say that Bulacan was once a part of the Kapampangan region (which then includes the entire Central Luzon and Pangasinan up to Nueva Vizcaya) with Kapampangan as its partial native language and culture as well.

In the year 1762, Bulacan and Pampanga became the last bastion of the Spanish government in the colony due to the British invasion of Manila. During this time the towns of Calumpit, Baliuag (including Bustos), San Ysidro (now Pulilan), and San Miguel de Mayumo were still with Pampanga until 1842 when they became official parts of Bulacan.

More so, both provinces have big roles in Manila’s development and progress during that time. Construction materials and other basic commodities in Manila were coming from Bulacan. While the finest Filipino seafarers, army, religious persona, and other professionals employed by the Spaniards were from Pampanga...

Some of the prominent Filipinos in history hailed from Bulacan and Pampanga, such as Marcelo H. del Pilar (father of Filipino journalism and the great propagandist) and Gen. Gregorio del Pilar (the “boy general”) of Bulakan, Bulacan, Jose Alejandrino (a reformist and a revolutionary hero) of Arayat, Pampanga, and Aurelio Tolentino (the poet of Katipunan) of Guagua, Pampanga.

On the other hand, the men behind the publishing of Dr. Jose Rizal’s great novels were also Bulakenyo and Kapampangan; to wit, the savior of Noli me tangere, Maximo Viola of San Miguel de Mayumo, and the savior of El Filibusterismo, Valentin Ventura of Bacolor, Pampanga.

Even Dr. Rizal himself was of Bulakenyo-Kapampangan descent. His maternal great grandmother was from Baliuag, Bulacan. While his father side, the Mercados, were recorded to have been inhabiting Sasmuan, Pampanga; identifying Don Monico Mercado, a playwright and a member of the Malolos Congress, as one of his cousins who hailed from the same place.

Even the Katipunan supremo, Gat Andres Bonifacio, is believed to have its lineage with the Bonifacio clan from Macabebe and Masantol, Pampanga. While Deodato Arellano, the first supremo of Katipunan in 1892, and Marcelo H. del Pilar, who first conceived the establishment of this radical society in 1890, two years before its real foundation, were from Bulacan.

Likewise, the two provinces were parts of the eight great rays in our golden yellow sun in the National Flag. Three of the first republics in Asia were born in Bulacan: Cacarong de Sili in Pandi in 1896, Biak-na-Bato in San Miguel de Mayumo in 1897, and the Republica Filipina in Malolos in 1899.

The exodus of the Republica Filipina to escape the advancing American troops under Gen. Arthur MacArthur II (Gen. Douglas McArthur’s father) in Bulacan, Pampanga served as the safe haven for the Republica. The capital was first transferred in San Fernando, and later to Angeles where the first anniversary of the Philippine Independence on June 12, 1899 took place.

It was also from Bulacan and Pampanga where the peasants’ unrest and mass revolts against the imperial America started. Some of the leaders were Felipe “Apo Ipe” Salvador of Baliuag, Bulacan on his Santa Iglesia millenarian movement in which Mt. Arayat in Pampanga became the headquarter; Benigno Ramos of Bulakan, Bulacan on his Sakdalista Movement against the Commonwealth; Bernardo Poblete of Minalin and Luis Taruc of San Luis, Pampanga and also of San Miguel de Mayumo, Bulacan with their Hukbong Bayan Laban sa mga Hapon (HUKBALAHAP); Pedro Abad Santos of San Fernando, Pampanga and the Lava Brothers of Bulakan, Bulacan in their Socialist movement (wherein Pampanga was dubbed as the Little Union Soviet during their time); and Bernabe Buscayno who founded the New People’s Army.
jonathanrhino
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Oct 13 2009, 09:53 AM) *
I thought you were following the discussion. lol
The document under scrutiny by our inquisitive friends is the census done by Miguel de Loarca at 1582. Census was done by counting only the able-bodied taxpayers, which are men of certain age. So you have to multiply it by three to include the females, the offspring and those who were in the boondocks to evade paying taxes. embarassedlaugh.gif


beerchug.gif This I do believe with some credibility, though Miguel de Loarca is a foreigner making a census on natives for which...he has no affinity whatsoever. Did he do a scientific approach or a sloppy one just to comply with the order of his boss. Would the natives heed his call to come to the towns to be counted, did all the natives hear this order? Also, some nuances are lost just from simple translations from Spanish to English. Also, this passage just said that some natives speak Kapampangan, and some speak Tagalog.

My point is lets have a healthy dose of skepticism to any passage, specially those posted on the internet, and just treat them as gospel truth. Fact is vastly different from artistic license for entertainment. Nick Joaquin's work is also bordering on artistic license but heck, its a good read.
silangan
QUOTE (trismegistos @ Oct 15 2009, 11:26 PM) *
I agree. Let Nick Joaquin describe to us, this alliance between the Tagalogs and the Kapampangan. But before that an introduction by a wise poster about this article by Nick Joaquin...

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=197796

More info about the Tagalog-Kapampangan alliance...
http://bulacanpampanga.multiply.com/


The relationship is that of a master and laborer. The Kapampangans acquired a nobility status during the Spanish time and were the soldiers, tax collectors, maintainers, etc. The Encomiendas were entrusted to them. The Tagalogs were laborers and comprise the majority. The Kapampangans were a privileged few.
filipinoy
but nowadays majority of metro manila is neither ethnically tagalog or kapampangan, but tagalog linguistically
trismegistos
QUOTE (jonathanrhino @ Oct 16 2009, 01:04 AM) *
beerchug.gif This I do believe with some credibility, though Miguel de Loarca is a foreigner making a census on natives for which...he has no affinity whatsoever. Did he do a scientific approach or a sloppy one just to comply with the order of his boss. Would the natives heed his call to come to the towns to be counted, did all the natives hear this order? Also, some nuances are lost just from simple translations from Spanish to English. Also, this passage just said that some natives speak Kapampangan, and some speak Tagalog.

My point is lets have a healthy dose of skepticism to any passage, specially those posted on the internet, and just treat them as gospel truth. Fact is vastly different from artistic license for entertainment. Nick Joaquin's work is also bordering on artistic license but heck, its a good read.

Great, to have something to agree upon.
Points well taken, about healthy skepticism on various sources of infos esp. those proliferating in the net. And as much as possible to be critical that those infos stemmed from scientific approaches as much as possible on a very subjective field called History which is, btw, not an exact science, of course, as only Mathematics is. I am not by profession a historian nor an academician. Let's just say, I'm a lover of knowledge and of truth, a theoretician, a speculator or a philosopher. And so I am not trying to put all of these, my opinions, to others as gospel truth but as points against or points for of what others have posted as a form of a reaction to some correct assumptions or otherwise of some glaring errors. So, they are only my opinion for the sake of discussion as we alltogether try to search for the truth. Take it or leave it, it's just my point of view and you have yours and others have theirs as I respect all of their opinion. My method is not the typical way, a true historian concretised their works, but it's like a haphazard chopsuey of infos not as beatifully strung the way Nick Joaquin does as I admit I am just a nobody in this particular field of interests. And my way of validating infos is not much by the criteria of anthropological model of validating scientific truth but as much as possible as logical or linear thinking as possible. But also in addition, by intuitive process or right brain-thinking or 6th sense, as some form of akashic reading, trance or time travelling embarassedlaugh.gif. And I am sure Nick Joaquin does the same logical and intuitive approaches in order to synthesize a creative masterpiece, a historical essay such as the one above which he tried at his best to convey his truths and not for the sake of "entertainment" or else he become adjudged as a pathological liar, full of deceit and lies.
But we need to put our trust whether on authority figures, institutions, historical documents or archives if there's lacking a possible way for a scientific anthropological approach or else then we have to discredit 90 percent of historical data and history books published up to date including the gospels themselves. And I put my trust on Nick Joaquin, Pol Kekai Manansala, Tome Pires, Miguel de Loarca, Pigafetta among others for their scholarly or tireless works but never without a healthy dose of skepticism and as you've pointed out as most of these were outsiders, bystanders or reinterpreters of data of events but hopefully, they did their best to be as objective as possible within their own means. No matter, if their works have some few factual errors or glaring errors. They are or were still Human after all.
Btw, regarding Nick Joaquin works like the ones above, were historical essays and not fictional works like his novels, for e.g. 'May day's eve', where artistic license is full abandon. But still truths is still being conveyed whether he writes novels or historical essays or historical interpretations such as the books he published like the 'Aquinos of Tarlac' etc. Historical Essay must be grounded on facts though it may have some factual errors or inaccuracies or it will be relegated only as a fable, a myth, fictional. Or in this case, simply as a propaganda material to mystify a hero, or a work full of lies and deceptions or maybe just a campaign material for a Ninoy Aquino presidency. These historical essays must have semblance of or nearer to the Absolute truth as much as possible. As seekers of truths, the writers put their name or dignity on the line to give as much as possible balanced opinions, validated infos and objectivity. But as there are human frailties and failings, they can only come as closer only to Relative truths.
Thanks for pointing things out to put those reinterpretations of history with a grain of salt, as they may be just a reinterpretation of 3rd or 4th handed infos. That's why I am leery or wary of those Marcos books especially published by outsiders though the authors may be true blue academicians but have their source of infos from nth handed materials with an obvious end to smear the man and thus lack objectivity and validity in the process. I would rather trust the truths and insights of the masters, gurus and purveyours of wisdom, though they may not have multiple degrees from reputable universities or their works may have some factual errors and they may have arrived with their conclusions not only through the usual scientific validations, deductive and inductive reasoning or through the use of instrumentations for making calculations or statistical analyses with the use of some high end supercomputer embarassedlaugh.gif but by simple direct knowledge or "Gnosis".
Btw, nice insights. beerchug.gif
Suzuka00
QUOTE (silangan @ Oct 12 2009, 07:04 PM) *
The Tagalogs, Ilocanos and Bisayans are majority tribes since the beginning.
The Kapampangans are a small tribe that became big. They don't own ancient Pampanga.

Ilocanos and Kumintangs only have a single piece of land when the spanish arrived,the main reason for kapampangans to abandon their language was shame,but Kapampangan Language /Idiom and Culture is a part of the history of the areas where they used to be spoken. icon_smile.gif

Eka_miminum_sumawa_kang_susuka
Ancient Kapampangan domain stretches from North of Tarlac as far as Tondo down south.
silangan
QUOTE (Suzuka00 @ Oct 19 2009, 07:10 PM) *
Ilocanos and Kumintangs only have a single piece of land when the spanish arrived,the main reason for kapampangans to abandon their language was shame,but Kapampangan Language /Idiom and Culture is a part of the history of the areas where they used to be spoken. icon_smile.gif


Abandon their language because of shame???? This sounds like the story "Si Malakas At Si Maganda".

Who in his right mind would believe that?

The Kapampangans of the ancient past were not "Masa". They were a "Priveleged Few". They ruled over the majority Tagalogs courtesy of Spain.

The Tagalogs were the laborers on the Encomiendas while the Kapampangans watched over them.

Most of Pampanga's population of today were actually originally Tagalogs with a mixture of Pangasinenses, Ilocanos, etc. They comprise the "MASA" that labored the Encomiendas.

So if you come from Pampanga, don't be too quick to celebrate having "privileged ancestors". Check your blood first. Your great grandfather might be Ilocano or Tagalog or Pangalatok embarassedlaugh.gif





silangan
QUOTE (Eka_miminum_sumawa_kang_susuka @ Oct 20 2009, 02:11 PM) *
Ancient Kapampangan domain stretches from North of Tarlac as far as Tondo down south.


Yeah you're right. They even control almost all of Philippines courtesy of Spain.

But population wise, they were just a small tribe. Their domain were actually inhabited overwhelmingly by other tribes.

Eka_miminum_sumawa_kang_susuka
QUOTE (silangan @ Oct 20 2009, 02:18 PM) *
Yeah you're right. They even control almost all of Philippines courtesy of Spain.


lols what a BS. its really out of topic.
filipinoy
found this

Philippines Before Spanish Conquest, 1500's


Suzuka00
QUOTE (filipinoy @ Oct 21 2009, 01:04 AM) *
found this

Philippines Before Spanish Conquest, 1500's



that is the wrong map I made,it was the draft alternate present map I made okay,in short that was a draft map of the supposed linguistic areas if the spanish did not came..

Before the spanish conquest idioms that are closely related to kapampangan thrived in central luzon,they are not exactly kapampangan and one of them are the ones closely related to Remontado Agta.
filipinoy
^haha i had a good feeling that was u
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