Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Apartheid and Rascism in Malaysian

SChong54

Oct 14 2009, 09:41 AM

Malaysia is South Africa 30 years ago ...

QUOTE

Apartheid in the Malaysian context

I would confidently say Malaysia's NEP and NDP are more akin to apartheid than affirmative action not only in their morality but also in the way they have been implemented.

Dr Boo Cheng Hau, Malaysian Mirror

Apartheid was officially defined in South Africa as 'separate development'. But apartheid is really an elite regime with concentration of power in the hands of a few.

Apartheid involves the complete domination of one race over the other – economically, politically and socially.

South Africa is still struggling with the socio-economic sequels of apartheid itself. I do not think one should be obsessed with the physical aspect of apartheid [segregation] but rather be more concerned about its longstanding socio-economic deprivation and mental humiliation of not only being labelled according to skin colour but more factually to your native status.

Many have mistaken apartheid as a form of racial discrimination based on white superiority. It has been well-documented that it is actually a preferential treatment for white Afrikaners (South Africans of Dutch descent) following victimisation by the British colonists during the Boer War where thousands of Boer Trekkers died in wartime.

Umno's Ketuanan Melayu is race-based dominance in a multiracial country and is the exact ideology employed by the single-race National Party which imposed apartheid rule in South Africa. The National Party portrayed themselves as the champions of 'Afrikaner Sovereignty' and 'white supremacy'.

Similarly, Umno's ideological basis for its political struggle has been Malay nationalism and bumiputeraism. Like the National Party, Umno has also imposed a heavily state-guided capitalist economic system.

Parallel argument to claim native status

White Afrikaners's native status was based on the familiar argument that they set up the 'first civilised government' in their motherland of South Africa.

The African aborigines such as the Khoisan and Xhosa people did not set up any 'civilised government' and the others were later immigrants. And hence they were never considered as 'natives' for special treatment by the state.

The exact argument has been deployed by Umno and its Barisan Nasional counterparts to justify bumiputeraism in that the Malays set up the 'first definitive government' in Tanah Melayu - (Dr Mahatir Mohamad: The Malay Dilemma). Thus they are considered as bumiputera despite the historical fact that Orang Asli are the first settlers of this land.

Later immigrants are not considered as bumiputera for special treatment by the state.

False justification for apartheid

As I pointed out earlier, historians have documented that white Afrikaners had been deprived during and after the Boer War.

Apartheid was started out to help 'the poor white natives', meaning to help the white Afrikaners to compete in the job market with the influx of the much cheaper black labour from other parts of Africa.

In Malaysia just after independence, the situation was that while a few Chinese were able to own businesses, the majority of the Chinese and Indians were manual and estates workers.

Statistics even show that the Malays' literacy rate was much higher than Chinese and Indians' at the time of Independence. It was not a question of who was richer than whom.

It was a fact that we were all impoverished, but one ethnic group may have been relatively more impoverished than the others. Nonetheless, this is not a moral ground to justify immoral means such as racial degradation of non-native status.

Historians conclude that under South Africa's apartheid rule, 'race is class, class is race' meaning the ruling elite class was predominantly white notwithstanding the fact that there were collaborators of other races working hand in hand with it to sustain their benefits. Similarly, the BN ruling elite class is composed mainly of Umno leaders notwithstanding their collaborators from MIC, MCA and others.

Affirmative action must be carried out with individualisation and transparency. Affirmative action should be allowed to be challenged in court. Do we have that in Malaysia? On the contrary, the NEP and the NDP have so far been carried out under the umbrella of draconian laws such as the ISA, OSA and the like.

I would confidently say Malaysia's NEP and NDP are more akin to apartheid than affirmative action not only in their morality but also in the way they have been implemented.

One may argue that Malaysia's economy has grown with the implementation of the NEP and NDP for almost a 30-year period. So did South Africa's economy grow for almost two decades without fail under apartheid rule. In both countries, an elite class of all races emerged under preferential treatment but that does not justify the immorality of Umno's and Barisan Nasional's political hegemony.

elleX0

Oct 15 2009, 02:26 PM

SChong, You have to do some reading about Islam and the Philosophy of Islam. I do not believe that there is apartheid practised in Malaysia. It is not a similar situation. But read up on Dhimmi.

radzi

Oct 17 2009, 08:39 PM

QUOTE (elleX0 @ Oct 15 2009, 03:26 PM)

SChong, You have to do some reading about Islam and the Philosophy of Islam. I do not believe that there is apartheid practised in Malaysia. It is not a similar situation. But read up on Dhimmi.

Forget about Dhimmi for a while ....

Malaysia is a secular nation not Islamic. ..at least Chinese still are allowed to have private Chinese school here.... while sekolah agama rakyat is banned and closed. Muslim are being force down our throat the syllabus of sekolah "Agama Kebangasaan" ....innovated form of secularized Islam.

Now. This tread by SChong really contradict the one about Chinese being the master in Malaysia. ...unless you are saying Chinese is running the apartheid regime?

...both of you....pick a stand so we may dialog further.

SanjungAlam

Oct 18 2009, 08:06 AM

Dialogue with As$s Chong & Smart Ellec?

Ha ha ha. You can only conduct a DI-alogue with someone equally capable of it.

But As$s Chong & Smart Ellec? Naaahhh. These two can only do MONO-logue.

elleX0

Oct 18 2009, 12:17 PM

Who are we kidding?

QUOTE

On 29th September 2001, during his Opening Address to the Gerakan Party’s 30th national delegates conference, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamed announced:

“UMNO wishes to state loudly that Malaysia is an Islamic country. This is based on the opinion of ulamaks who had clarified what constituted as Islamic country. If Malaysia is not an Islamic country because it does not implement the hudud, then there are no Islamic countries in the world.

If UMNO says that Malaysia is an Islamic country, it is because in an Islamic country non-Muslims have specific rights. This is in line with the teachings of Islam. There is no compulsion in Islam. And Islam does not like chaos that may come about if Islamic laws are enforced on non-Muslims.1

QUOTE

Religion of the Federation

“3. (1) Islam is the religion of the Federation; but other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in any part of the Federation.

(2) In every State other than States not having a Ruler the position of the Ruler as the Head of the religion of Islam in his State in the manner and to the extent acknowledge and declared by the Constitution of that State, and, subject to that Constitution, all rights, privileges, prerogatives and powers enjoyed by him as Head of that religion, are unaffected and unimpaired; but in any acts, observances or ceremonies with respect to which the Conference of Rulers has agreed that they should extend to the Federation as a whole each of the other Rulers shall in his capacity of Head of the religion of Islam authorize the Yang di-Pertuan Agong to represent him.

(3) The Constitution of the States of Malacca, Penang, Sabah and Sarawak shall each make provision for conferring on the Yang di-Pertuan Agong the position of Head of the religion of Islam in that State.

(4) Nothing in this Article derogates from any other provision of this Constitution.

(5) Nothwithstanding anything in this Constitution the Yang di-Pertuan Agong shall be the Head of the religion of Islam in the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur, Labuan and Putrajaya; and for this purpose Parliament may by law make provisions for regulating Islamic religious affairs and for constituting a Council to advise the Yang di-Pertuan Agong in matters relating to the religion of Islam.

http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/constitutio...mic_state_.html

Just see the intent and the constitutional text. Then guess at the final outcome. It is all there for you to analyse.

samheisfl

Oct 18 2009, 10:34 PM

QUOTE (SChong54 @ Oct 14 2009, 10:41 PM)

Malaysia is South Africa 30 years ago ...

Apartheid in the Malaysian context

QUOTE

I would confidently say Malaysia's NEP and NDP are more akin to apartheid than affirmative action not only in their morality but also in the way they have been implemented.

Dr Boo Cheng Hau, Malaysian Mirror

Apartheid was officially defined in South Africa as 'separate development'. But apartheid is really an elite regime with concentration of power in the hands of a few.

Apartheid involves the complete domination of one race over the other – economically, politically and socially.

South Africa is still struggling with the socio-economic sequels of apartheid itself. I do not think one should be obsessed with the physical aspect of apartheid [segregation] but rather be more concerned about its longstanding socio-economic deprivation and mental humiliation of not only being labelled according to skin colour but more factually to your native status.

Many have mistaken apartheid as a form of racial discrimination based on white superiority. It has been well-documented that it is actually a preferential treatment for white Afrikaners (South Africans of Dutch descent) following victimisation by the British colonists during the Boer War where thousands of Boer Trekkers died in wartime.

Umno's Ketuanan Melayu is race-based dominance in a multiracial country and is the exact ideology employed by the single-race National Party which imposed apartheid rule in South Africa. The National Party portrayed themselves as the champions of 'Afrikaner Sovereignty' and 'white supremacy'.

Similarly, Umno's ideological basis for its political struggle has been Malay nationalism and bumiputeraism. Like the National Party, Umno has also imposed a heavily state-guided capitalist economic system.

Parallel argument to claim native status

White Afrikaners's native status was based on the familiar argument that they set up the 'first civilised government' in their motherland of South Africa.

The African aborigines such as the Khoisan and Xhosa people did not set up any 'civilised government' and the others were later immigrants. And hence they were never considered as 'natives' for special treatment by the state.

The exact argument has been deployed by Umno and its Barisan Nasional counterparts to justify bumiputeraism in that the Malays set up the 'first definitive government' in Tanah Melayu - (Dr Mahatir Mohamad: The Malay Dilemma). Thus they are considered as bumiputera despite the historical fact that Orang Asli are the first settlers of this land.

Later immigrants are not considered as bumiputera for special treatment by the state.

False justification for apartheid

As I pointed out earlier, historians have documented that white Afrikaners had been deprived during and after the Boer War.

Apartheid was started out to help 'the poor white natives', meaning to help the white Afrikaners to compete in the job market with the influx of the much cheaper black labour from other parts of Africa.

In Malaysia just after independence, the situation was that while a few Chinese were able to own businesses, the majority of the Chinese and Indians were manual and estates workers.

Statistics even show that the Malays' literacy rate was much higher than Chinese and Indians' at the time of Independence. It was not a question of who was richer than whom.

It was a fact that we were all impoverished, but one ethnic group may have been relatively more impoverished than the others. Nonetheless, this is not a moral ground to justify immoral means such as racial degradation of non-native status.

Historians conclude that under South Africa's apartheid rule, 'race is class, class is race' meaning the ruling elite class was predominantly white notwithstanding the fact that there were collaborators of other races working hand in hand with it to sustain their benefits. Similarly, the BN ruling elite class is composed mainly of Umno leaders notwithstanding their collaborators from MIC, MCA and others.

Affirmative action must be carried out with individualisation and transparency. Affirmative action should be allowed to be challenged in court. Do we have that in Malaysia? On the contrary, the NEP and the NDP have so far been carried out under the umbrella of draconian laws such as the ISA, OSA and the like.

I would confidently say Malaysia's NEP and NDP are more akin to apartheid than affirmative action not only in their morality but also in the way they have been implemented.

One may argue that Malaysia's economy has grown with the implementation of the NEP and NDP for almost a 30-year period. So did South Africa's economy grow for almost two decades without fail under apartheid rule. In both countries, an elite class of all races emerged under preferential treatment but that does not justify the immorality of Umno's and Barisan Nasional's political hegemony

.

Hmm.. Personally, I think this guy is funny..

Just wondering, during the Apartheid rule in SA, was it the black people is the richest person in SA?

radzi

Oct 19 2009, 12:57 AM

QUOTE (elleX0 @ Oct 18 2009, 01:17 PM)

Who are we kidding?

http://www.malaysianbar.org.my/constitutio...mic_state_.html

Just see the intent and the constitutional text. Then guess at the final outcome. It is all there for you to analyse.

Malaysia as "Islamic State" is just a mere "slogan". It is not even convincing on paper.

...and yes ...there is not a single Islamic state in the current Secular Order world. This is the time of Dajjal....people are being deceived.

elleX0

Oct 19 2009, 04:25 AM

radzi, be specific and spell it out so we understand what you mean.

radzi

Oct 20 2009, 08:19 PM

QUOTE (elleX0 @ Oct 19 2009, 05:25 AM)

radzi, be specific and spell it out so we understand what you mean.

I was specific enough.....and "yes"...I did not "spell-out" the details. Insya'Allah.....may be I'll "spell-out" later....

elleX0

Oct 22 2009, 07:38 AM

A list of Muslim countries and their populations.

http://arabicpaper.tripod.com/country.html

radzi

Oct 22 2009, 10:17 PM

QUOTE (elleX0 @ Oct 22 2009, 07:38 AM)

A list of Muslim countries and their populations.

http://arabicpaper.tripod.com/country.html

List of secular countries with the number and % of Muslims population.

kenmirzz

Oct 23 2009, 03:33 AM

QUOTE

..and yes ...there is not a single Islamic state in the current Secular Order world. This is the time of Dajjal....people are being deceived.

Mr Radzi, it's been quite some times we discussed about sensitive issues. My friend, do not believe in this so called "Dajjal" myth. Human has been believing in all this superstitions since time immemorial. Normally, oppressed people pretend to have imaginary fantasy of a savior that will rescue them. The Jews were expecting the Messiah, The Christians as well as the Muslims were expecting the second advent of Jesus.

For your information, there never was an Islamic State either in the past, present or in the near future. The Medinan Nation established by "Prophet" Muhammad could not be a model either because it's in the state of commotion, full with skirmishes with the surrounding tribes. In fact, Muhammad waged 78 wars or raids while 27 of the raids he involved personally.

If we scrutinize the history of Islam, we will witness murder, treachery and conspiracies that occurred frequently. The "Rightly Guided Caliphs" were not a model either. Abu Bakr virtually eliminated all apostates to suppress their rebellion. The event that happen with regards to the Malik Bin Nuwayrah who had been murdered by Khalid Al-Walid in cold blood, then, his wife was taken as captive on the same night. When some protested, Abu Bakr defended him and gave him concession. Do you know this Mr Radzi?

The subsequent caliphs were all murdered. Umar devastated Persian Empire, subjugating the more civilized Persian, hence, he received his bitter fate at the hand of a Persian, Abu Lu'lu'. Uthman, the nepotist, unjust caliphs initiated the culture of accumulating personal wealth and appointing his kinsmen as governors until he was murdered by Muslim rebels. Uthman also conquered the Sindh area and killing many innocent Hindus in the process. As for Ali Bin Abi Talib, suffice to say that he was a failed administrator, Muslims decapitated one another during his lifetime resulting in more than 200,000 casualties.

The Umayyads and the Abbasids, they were ruthless and cruel. Most of the caliphs had many wives and concubines, drinker as well.

Humanity is but one family.

radzi

Oct 25 2009, 07:16 AM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 23 2009, 04:33 AM)

Mr Radzi, it's been quite some times we discussed about sensitive issues. My friend, do not believe in this so called "Dajjal" myth. Human has been believing in all this superstitions since time immemorial. Normally, oppressed people pretend to have imaginary fantasy of a savior that will rescue them. The Jews were expecting the Messiah, The Christians as well as the Muslims were expecting the second advent of Jesus.

For your information, there never was an Islamic State either in the past, present or in the near future. The Medinan Nation established by "Prophet" Muhammad could not be a model either because it's in the state of commotion, full with skirmishes with the surrounding tribes. In fact, Muhammad waged 78 wars or raids while 27 of the raids he involved personally.

If we scrutinize the history of Islam, we will witness murder, treachery and conspiracies that occurred frequently. The "Rightly Guided Caliphs" were not a model either. Abu Bakr virtually eliminated all apostates to suppress their rebellion. The event that happen with regards to the Malik Bin Nuwayrah who had been murdered by Khalid Al-Walid in cold blood, then, his wife was taken as captive on the same night. When some protested, Abu Bakr defended him and gave him concession. Do you know this Mr Radzi?

The subsequent caliphs were all murdered. Umar devastated Persian Empire, subjugating the more civilized Persian, hence, he received his bitter fate at the hand of a Persian, Abu Lu'lu'. Uthman, the nepotist, unjust caliphs initiated the culture of accumulating personal wealth and appointing his kinsmen as governors until he was murdered by Muslim rebels. Uthman also conquered the Sindh area and killing many innocent Hindus in the process. As for Ali Bin Abi Talib, suffice to say that he was a failed administrator, Muslims decapitated one another during his lifetime resulting in more than 200,000 casualties.

The Umayyads and the Abbasids, they were ruthless and cruel. Most of the caliphs had many wives and concubines, drinker as well.

Humanity is but one family.

Your "fitnah" slanders on the Salafisaleh especially on the "Rightly Guided Caliphs" just proved there is Dajjal.

radzi

Oct 25 2009, 07:27 AM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 23 2009, 04:33 AM)

For your information, there never was an Islamic State either in the past, present or in the near future. The Medinan Nation established by "Prophet" Muhammad could not be a model either because it's in the state of commotion, full with skirmishes with the surrounding tribes. In fact, Muhammad waged 78 wars or raids while 27 of the raids he involved personally.

I knew this. The early Muslims were mainly about building a community that submit to & worship Allah. The nation building & nation worshiping stuffs are slogans of secularism.

kenmirzz

Oct 25 2009, 09:43 AM

QUOTE

Your "fitnah" slanders on the Salafisaleh especially on the "Rightly Guided Caliphs" just proved there is Dajjal.

My human friend, which part of my information contain "fitna" or slander? Imagine yourself being there during the aggression against the peaceful and more civilized Persian by the raiding army of Umar Alkhattab. Here I provide you the response by the Persian Shah, Yazgird III to Umar Khattab:

In the name of Ahura Mazda, creator of Life and Intelligence you in your letter wrote that you want to direct us towards your God, Allah, without having the true knowledge of who we are and what do we worship! It is amazing that you occupy the position of Khalifat (Ruler) of Arabs, yet your knowledge is the same as a lowly Arab rambler, roaming in deserts of Arabia and same as a desert tribal man (mardak) you offer me to worship a united and single God without knowing that it has been thousands of years that Persians worship the mono God and they pray to him Five Times a day! In this land of culture and art this has been the normal path of life for years. When we established the tradition of hospitality and good deeds in the world and we waved the flag of "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds" in our hands, you and your ancestors were roaming the deserts, eating Lizards for you had nothing else to feed yourselves and burying your innocent daughters alive (an old Arab tradition because they preferred male children to female). Tazi people have no value for God's creatures! You behead God's children, even the POWs (Prisoners of War), Rape Women, bury your daughters alive, attack the Caravans, mass murder, kidnap people's wives and steal their property! Your hearts are made of stone; we condemn all these Evil which you do. How can you teach us Godly Ways when you commit these actions? You tell me to stop my Fire Worship! Us, Persians see the Love of Creator and power of inventor in the light of Sun and warmth of Fire. Lights and Warmth of the Sun and Fire makes us see the light of truth and warms our hearts to the creator and to one another. It helps us to be kind to one another; it enlightens us and makes us to keep Mazda's Flame, alive in our hearts. Our lord is Ahura Mazda and it is strange that you people also, just discovered him and named him Allah.
But we are not the same as you; we are not in the same level as you. We help other human being, we spread love among humanity, we spread Good throughout the Earth, we have been spreading our culture but in respect for other cultures throughout the whole world for thousands of years, yet you in the name of Allah invade other men's land! You mass murder the people, create famine, fear and poverty for others, you create Evil in the name of Allah. Who is responsible for this entire catastrophe? Is it Allah who commands you to murder, pillage and to destroy? Is it you the followers of Allah who do this in his name? Or is it both? You have risen from heat of the deserts and burnt out infertile lands with no resources, you want to teach people the love of God by your military campaigns and the power of your Swords! You are Desert Savages, yet you want to teach Urban people like us who lived in the cities for thousands of years, the love of God! We have thousands of years of culture behind us, a powerful tool indeed!
Tell us? With all your military campaigns, barbarianism, murder and pillage in the name of Allah, what have you taught to this Muslim Army? What knowledge have you taught the Muslim that you also insist on teaching it to non Muslim? What culture have you learned from our Allah, now that you want to force-teach it to others? Alas, ...... that today our Persian Armies of Ahura have been defeated from your recently Allah Worshiping Armies; Now, our people have to worship the same God, the same Five times a day, but forced by the sword to call him Allah and pray to him in Arabic because your Allah only understands Arabic I suggest, you and your gang of bandits pack up and move back to your deserts where they are used to live. Take them back where they used to the burning heat of the sun, tribal life, eating Lizards and drinking Camel Milk. I forbid you to let your band of thieves loose in our fertile lands, civilized cities and our glorious nation. Don't turn these "beasts with hearts of stone" loose, to mass murder our people, kidnap our women and children, rape our wives and send our daughters to Mecca as slaves! Don't let them do these crimes in the name of Allah put a stop to your criminal behavior. Aryans are forgiving, warm, hospitable, and decent people and everywhere they went, they have spread seeds of friendship, love, knowledge and truth; therefore, they shall not punish you and your people for your pirate ways and criminal acts. I beg you to remain with your Allah in your deserts and do not move close to our civilized cities, for your believers are "Much Fearful" and your behavior is "Most Barbaric."

Sign,
Yazdgird III Sassanid

Mr Radzi, the "Rightly Guided Caliphs" or your epithet Salafusalih were not as saintly or pious as you desire to imagine. Don't lie to yourself and convince of falsehood. Ali Bin Talib could not get along well with Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. In fact, he never joined in the battle organized by the three caliphs. Anyway, that's another story. You can dismiss all as the lies of the Shias, whatever. Muslims never unite and clashes began as soon as the demise of "Prophet" Muhammad.

QUOTE

I knew this. The early Muslims were mainly about building a community that submit to & worship Allah. The nation building & nation worshiping stuffs are slogans of secularism.

Mr Radzi, as a confused person, you do not know the real meaning of secularism except told by some fanatic creatures. What do you mean by "building community" at the expense of innocent life. Have you ever thought about this? Where's your conscience? Secularism is an effective way for humanity to improve ourselves and our civilization in perpetual condition. Under secularism, religious thought must not impede progress of the society. For examples, the inventor who created the first flying device, the Wright Brothers, that enable us to enjoy the benefit of seeing other land, was operated under secularism. Imagine if they were Syariah-loving Muslims, do you think they can accomplish this great achievements? No, never!

Secularism is the answer to curb religious extremism which permeates the society in the form of opium of the masses. A religious society can never achieve progress or advancement in anything, let alone in building a decent society, it will be a corrupt community with the highest hypocrisy. That's the undeniable truth of the previous Islamic society. Mr Radzi, have you ever care to read about the wives and concubines in the harem of Harun Ar-Rashid? Was he influenced by the Western corrupt free sex indulgence? No! Most of your Islamic caliphs lead a life of double faced that showing off piousness in front of the public, I can name you other caliphs as well. The Abbasids, under the influence of Mu'tazilite doctrine, which was quite rational,began to prosper for a while. Freethinkers such as Umar Khayyam, Ar-Razi, Ibn Rawandi and many others contributed to science because during their time, religious extremism was curbed. The progress hindered by the substitution of Rationalist Mu'tazilite to fundamentalist Sunnism again. The declining process initiated.

It's not the Dajjal or Antichrist that cause the predicament of Muslims nowadays, it's the Muslims themselves, behaving in hypocritical way, embellished with backward mentality that will never advance a nation. Let me ask you Mr Radzi, do you want to live in New Zealand, Switzerland, or Pakistan? Pick up your choice and your lists will mostly be secular nations because there is freedom of rights, freedom of expression and freedom of worship there.

Humanity is but one family.

samheisfl

Oct 25 2009, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 23 2009, 04:33 PM)

Mr Radzi, it's been quite some times we discussed about sensitive issues. My friend, do not believe in this so called "Dajjal" myth. Human has been believing in all this superstitions since time immemorial. Normally, oppressed people pretend to have imaginary fantasy of a savior that will rescue them. The Jews were expecting the Messiah, The Christians as well as the Muslims were expecting the second advent of Jesus.

For your information, there never was an Islamic State either in the past, present or in the near future. The Medinan Nation established by "Prophet" Muhammad could not be a model either because it's in the state of commotion, full with skirmishes with the surrounding tribes. In fact, Muhammad waged 78 wars or raids while 27 of the raids he involved personally.

If we scrutinize the history of Islam, we will witness murder, treachery and conspiracies that occurred frequently. The "Rightly Guided Caliphs" were not a model either. Abu Bakr virtually eliminated all apostates to suppress their rebellion. The event that happen with regards to the Malik Bin Nuwayrah who had been murdered by Khalid Al-Walid in cold blood, then, his wife was taken as captive on the same night. When some protested, Abu Bakr defended him and gave him concession. Do you know this Mr Radzi?

The subsequent caliphs were all murdered. Umar devastated Persian Empire, subjugating the more civilized Persian, hence, he received his bitter fate at the hand of a Persian, Abu Lu'lu'. Uthman, the nepotist, unjust caliphs initiated the culture of accumulating personal wealth and appointing his kinsmen as governors until he was murdered by Muslim rebels. Uthman also conquered the Sindh area and killing many innocent Hindus in the process. As for Ali Bin Abi Talib, suffice to say that he was a failed administrator, Muslims decapitated one another during his lifetime resulting in more than 200,000 casualties.

The Umayyads and the Abbasids, they were ruthless and cruel. Most of the caliphs had many wives and concubines, drinker as well.

Humanity is but one family.

Interesting.. Since everything is a myth to you.. i'm not sure whether i should believe in you or not.. definitely you'll give me some links to surf on.. but i'm pretty sure those links are untrustable..

When you say about,

QUOTE

"The Umayyads and the Abbasids, they were ruthless and cruel. Most of the caliphs had many wives and concubines, drinker as well.

Anybody can say the same thing.. I heard people said the same thing about your father that way.. No offence dude..

kenmirzz

Oct 26 2009, 08:33 PM

QUOTE

Interesting.. Since everything is a myth to you.. i'm not sure whether i should believe in you or not.. definitely you'll give me some links to surf on.. but i'm pretty sure those links are untrustable..

Hello Mr Samheisfl, I am not imposing my thought upon others. You have the right to accept or not to accept those information. Anyway, I am a champion of freedom of expression and freedom of thought, something that lacking in your belief. Please do not put words in my mouth, I am not saying everything is a myth, but humanity is progressing instead of regressing. Ancient human believed in the myth of flat earth, the myth of "dajjal", but nowadays all these unproven superstition should be discarded. Period.

QUOTE

Anybody can say the same thing.. I heard people said the same thing about your father that way.. No offence dude..

Ignorant human. Tell me how many people had been murdered in cold blood by Hajjaj Bin Yusuf AtThaqafi and Yazid Bin Muawiya. The founder of Abbasid dynasty namely Abu Abbas As-Saffah did not launch his coup d'etat peacefully with flowers, he virtually killed all the resisting Umayyads. Are you blind or closing your eyes to the truth? Indeed, you are in darkness, you only know how to insult, typically your way. No offense pal.

Humanity is but one family.

samheisfl

Oct 27 2009, 04:06 AM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 27 2009, 09:33 AM)

Hello Mr Samheisfl, I am not imposing my thought upon others. You have the right to accept or not to accept those information. Anyway, I am a champion of freedom of expression and freedom of thought, something that lacking in your belief. Please do not put words in my mouth, I am not saying everything is a myth, but humanity is progressing instead of regressing. Ancient human believed in the myth of flat earth, the myth of "dajjal", but nowadays all these unproven superstition should be discarded. Period.

Err.. Ancient human believed in the myth of flat earth untill it was proven wrong..
Does anyone has proved it to us that dajjal is just a myth..? That dajjal didn't exist..? Until today, no i guess..

20 years ago, everybody believes that diesel can do more harm to enviroment than kerosene.. but nowadays, it is better than kerosene and petroleum. And it is proven..

40 years ago, everbody believes nuclear will do more harm to people than good.. but nowadays, it is proven that it will do more good to us.. BTW, i'm not talking about nuclear missle, but more towards power generation.. And it is proven..

Humanity is progressing..? Err.. i believe it is only from your perspective.. Everyday, we still heard about thousands of people being killed during wars or what ever.. either because of religions, freedom or power..

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 27 2009, 09:33 AM)

Ignorant human. Tell me how many people had been murdered in cold blood by Hajjaj Bin Yusuf AtThaqafi and Yazid Bin Muawiya. The founder of Abbasid dynasty namely Abu Abbas As-Saffah did not launch his coup d'etat peacefully with flowers, he virtually killed all the resisting Umayyads. Are you blind or closing your eyes to the truth? Indeed, you are in darkness, you only know how to insult, typically your way. No offense pal.

Humanity is but one family.

To the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought.. please walk the talk.. Maybe i'm in the darkness, but only from your perspective.. Because i see it the other way around.. And the most interesting part is, you keep on refering to these events that happen and other events that happen.. which you called it as a truth and all are related to murders, casualties and so on.. i dont see any good in that..

It seems that i'm not the only one knew how to insult people.. But at least i didn't declare anything to make look good in front of other people.. err.. yeah.. the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought.. what was that again..? People who declare this kind of statement should be more tolerant and insult absorbent.. That is what I believed in.. And i dont force you to believed in that..

How many people died during the coup d'etat is totally a different issue altogether.. what we can do is learn from them.. And there thousands of coup d'etat happen in this world history whether it is done Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhas or whatever religion is.. and yet it is still happen today.. huh?

So please.. just because you read from certain website and believe in it as a truth, it doesn't mean that you have the right to say other people as ignorant if they dont do.. It is totally contradict from your earlier declaration.. The champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought..

And yes, i do believed that Humanity is but one family.. But you didn't sound one like those..

No hard feelings pal..

kenmirzz

Oct 27 2009, 11:43 AM

QUOTE

Err.. Ancient human believed in the myth of flat earth untill it was proven wrong..
Does anyone has proved it to us that dajjal is just a myth..? That dajjal didn't exist..? Until today, no i guess..

Hello Mr Samheisfl. I guess my slam dunk action will commence now. What disprove the flat earth myth? The answer is science. Science is progressing. Your belief in "Dajjal myth" stemmed from religious derivation. A conviction that you never want to discard. The burden of proof lies in you. The complementary entity with "Dajjal myth" is the "savior myth" which again originated from religious belief. As I said, ancient human believed in all these superstitions, you are merely believing in one version of it, which has Middle Eastern flavor. You want the whole world to adopt your version as truth? Your version of myth is unimaginably cruel one where your savior will virtually destroyed unbelievers and spare solely the believers.

QUOTE

And yes, i do believed that Humanity is but one family.. But you didn't sound one like those..

Don't you dare to practice dissimulation in accepting "Humanity is but one family" concept, because your belief does not allow such kind of brotherhood. Your brotherhood is limited to merely your own kind.

QUOTE

20 years ago, everybody believes that diesel can do more harm to enviroment than kerosene.. but nowadays, it is better than kerosene and petroleum. And it is proven..

40 years ago, everbody believes nuclear will do more harm to people than good.. but nowadays, it is proven that it will do more good to us.. BTW, i'm not talking about nuclear missle, but more towards power generation.. And it is proven..

Well, nice science. But you failed to realize that Diesel is still more harmful now as it's combustion degree is imperfect unless you change it to another form, at the moment, the harmlessness still remains in the process of research.

Nuclear is a double edge sword, you can utilize it for good and evil, no medial point here. People are developing more harmful nuclear weapon everyday(maybe Dajjal

) . Thus, dismiss your argument.

QUOTE

To the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought.. please walk the talk.. Maybe i'm in the darkness, but only from your perspective.. Because i see it the other way around.. And the most interesting part is, you keep on refering to these events that happen and other events that happen.. which you called it as a truth and all are related to murders, casualties and so on.. i dont see any good in that..

You know Mr Sam, I am in pain at each and every innocent soul that being murdered on daily basis from ancient to recent. The reason I keep referring those sad event is to prove to you that for a religion to claim sole salvation, this claim has no valid basis because the conduct of the earliest follower of that religion behaving unjustly and ruthlessly towards unbelievers of that religion. I am tired of mentioning the same thing over and over again. The Persian Empire was devastated and you know who was the actual aggressors right? Who send an army to Sindh and conquered the peaceful people there? Who crossed the Iberian Peninsula and conquered Spain? Please and please do read your own history to see whether swords were involved in the dissemination of the religion or not. It's not a lie propagated by anti-religion people, it's the naked truth. You can hate the colonialist as much as you can, but the initial aggressive movement of your own kind were covered as a justified subjugation. What kind of logic are you applying? Double face logic indeed.

QUOTE

t seems that i'm not the only one knew how to insult people.. But at least i didn't declare anything to make look good in front of other people.. err.. yeah.. the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought.. what was that again..? People who declare this kind of statement should be more tolerant and insult absorbent.. That is what I believed in.. And i dont force you to believed in that..

I don't recall ever insulting you Mr Sam, I know I walk the walk and talk the talk. It was you who are playing abusive game, bringing my father into the picture. I have the right to retaliate but I shun from doing so because honorable man will not play this silly game. Got it? Don't play the victim game with me as such mentality is within my grasp.

QUOTE

Humanity is progressing..? Err.. i believe it is only from your perspective.. Everyday, we still heard about thousands of people being killed during wars or what ever.. either because of religions, freedom or power..

As soon as your religion gain foothold in Arabia, the killing never ended Mr Sam. The Persian was subjugated, North Africa was subjugated, Spain was subjugated, India was subjugated, etc. How many people were killed? During the Pakistani-Bangladesh war, 3 million Bangladeshis were brutally murdered and 250,000 women were raped by these beasts. Heard of this? No, right. If there is your so called Dajjal, these are the Dajjal. Unfortunately, Dajjal is a myth created to sustain fear and hope among you all. The total barbaric murder committed by your brother in religion, if not exaggerated, can reach to 250 million souls. Even the Catholic Inquisition , WW1 and WW2 pale in comparison.

Ironically, the killings perpetuated even till now by your brother in religion who called themselves freedom fighter, anti-american jihadist or whatever label they want to assume. You people keep preaching that there are devils lurking in churches, temples and other place of worships but your own kind bomb mosques everyday. So, don't be arrogant in labeling other religions as devil's trickery and insinuating them on daily basis. We know who are the real devil and the real Dajjal.

Humanity is but one family.

kenmirzz

Oct 27 2009, 12:12 PM

Slam dunk continue............

QUOTE

How many people died during the coup d'etat is totally a different issue altogether.. what we can do is learn from them.. And there thousands of coup d'etat happen in this world history whether it is done Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhas or whatever religion is.. and yet it is still happen today.. huh?

As I said, you people are exception, the "Khairul Ummah" should portray an exemplary attitude. But the claim is indeed false. Leave the Christians, Hindus, Buddhist alone, we are talking of your own kind here. Avoid Tu Quoque logical fallacies when discussing any issue with me. Just because a Hindu or Christian murdered someone does not expatiate your own kind from any guilt. In analogy, Mr A is a cruel man, Mr B is an abusive husband. Just because Mr A murdered an innocent soul does not justify Mr B to beat his wife. Do you understand simple logic Mr Sam? It's only your own kind that do everything and seek justification from the religion. The Christians did that as well but to a lesser extent. However, your own kind killed in the name of religion (or god), launch coup d'etat in the name of religion(or god), advocating the barbaric sharia in the name of religion(or god).

As I mentioned earlier, there never was a model Islamic State in the past or present and most probably neither in the future. Otherwise, humanity will succumb into the darkness and regressing. Science will come to halt, humanity will keep decapitating one another like in Battle of Jamal and Siffin. Sunni and Shia will virtually slayed one another for power. This catastrophe must be avoided at all cost.

By the way, your own kind eventually will ban music, ban other culture ( they are jahiliyya culture according to your own kind) and pronounce death sentence to freedom. If you are a sane person, you will agree with me. The Internet you are enjoying now is a product of not of your own kind, be truthful Mr Sam.

QUOTE

So please.. just because you read from certain website and believe in it as a truth, it doesn't mean that you have the right to say other people as ignorant if they dont do.. It is totally contradict from your earlier declaration.. The champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought..

If you still want to remain blind despite so many historical and recent evidence showed by your own kind, what's more to say? Your own kind accepted someone who married a 6 year old child and having sex with her when she is 9 as someone to be respected, what's more to say? You accepted him who married 11 wives and have more than 20 sexual partners as holy man, what's more to say?

Try to refute me and do not resort to ad hominem attack or argumentum ad baculum logical fallacies with me. Anyway, my rebellious human friend, no hard feelings okay, we disagree on intellectual basis, at the core, we are still human.

Humanity is but one family.

samheisfl

Oct 27 2009, 10:42 PM

Okay.. you won.. yeaaa..

you may cry all the way you want to about human.. Everybody can say the same thing here.. on this thread.. hehe..
It is quite boring anyway.. Because you couldn't respect my opinion and force me to believe in your so called "truth".. While you are refuse to look into the matter holistically.. eh..?

To the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought.. please walk the talk.. And I said.. PLEASE..
If you don't really practice this.. please stop trying to look good.. seriously.. It make you look like a hypocrite kind of guy.. And youdon't deserve to use this "Humanity is but one family.." Because you dont have the credibility.. neither do I..

You may keep on hanging on blood stories.. Again such a hypocrite..

kenmirzz

Oct 28 2009, 04:01 AM

QUOTE

Okay.. you won.. yeaaa.. icon_redface.gif

you may cry all the way you want to about human.. Everybody can say the same thing here.. on this thread.. hehe..
It is quite boring anyway.. Because you couldn't respect my opinion and force me to believe in your so called "truth".. While you are refuse to look into the matter holistically.. eh..?

To the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought.. please walk the talk.. And I said.. PLEASE..
If you don't really practice this.. please stop trying to look good.. seriously.. It make you look like a hypocrite kind of guy.. And youdon't deserve to use this "Humanity is but one family.." Because you dont have the credibility.. neither do I..

You may keep on hanging on blood stories.. Again such a hypocrite..

That's the way of replying when you cannot disprove my whole points? Slam dunk mission accomplished. Oreno kachida. Go learn actual history and get lost.

Humanity is but one family.

radzi

Oct 28 2009, 09:27 PM

QUOTE (samheisfl @ Oct 27 2009, 10:42 PM)

Okay.. you won.. yeaaa.. -red

you may cry all the way you want to about human.. Everybody can say the same thing here.. on this thread.. hehe..
It is quite boring anyway.. Because you couldn't respect my opinion and force me to believe in your so called "truth".. While you are refuse to look into the matter holistically.. eh..?

To the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought.. please walk the talk.. And I said.. PLEASE..
If you don't really practice this.. please stop trying to look good.. seriously.. It make you look like a hypocrite kind of guy.. And youdon't deserve to use this "Humanity is but one family.." Because you dont have the credibility.. neither do I..

You may keep on hanging on blood stories.. Again such a hypocrite.. -cheers

He won a "slam dunk" contest..... not in argument.

I quit arguing with him because I just got sleazy lazy reading his stuffs that were older & smell more mythical than ours...

radzi

Oct 28 2009, 09:39 PM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 23 2009, 03:33 AM)

Mr Radzi, it's been quite some times we discussed about sensitive issues. My friend, do not believe in this so called "Dajjal" myth. Human has been believing in all this superstitions since time immemorial. Normally, oppressed people pretend to have imaginary fantasy of a savior that will rescue them. The Jews were expecting the Messiah, The Christians as well as the Muslims were expecting the second advent of Jesus.

The believe in the emergence of "Dajjal" (a human liar who mixed truth with falsehood) in the current world of lies is very acceptable.

....and classic.

"Anti-Christ" in Christianity
"Kaliyurga" in Veda Hinduism.

samheisfl

Oct 29 2009, 05:00 AM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 28 2009, 05:01 PM)

That's the way of replying when you cannot disprove my whole points? Slam dunk mission accomplished. Oreno kachida. Go learn actual history and get lost.

Your post is too long.. no body here bother to read it.. well, maybe some does..
Plus.. you don't even have the credibility for me dto ebate on.. by posting a long and wordy post doesn't mean that you have the credibility..

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 28 2009, 12:43 AM)

The reason I keep referring those sad event is to prove to you that for a religion to claim sole salvation, this claim has no valid basis because the conduct of the earliest follower of that religion behaving unjustly and ruthlessly towards unbelievers of that religion. I am tired of mentioning the same thing over and over again. The Persian Empire was devastated and you know who was the actual aggressors right? Who send an army to Sindh and conquered the peaceful people there? Who crossed the Iberian Peninsula and conquered Spain? Please and please do read your own history to see whether swords were involved in the dissemination of the religion or not. It's not a lie propagated by anti-religion people, it's the naked truth. You can hate the colonialist as much as you can, but the initial aggressive movement of your own kind were covered as a justified subjugation. What kind of logic are you applying? Double face logic indeed.

1. You couldn't prove to me that does stories are real.. It is something that you believe in..
And you keep on saying the same stories and failed to mention what others have done.. For example what happen in China thousand years ago.. or perhaps what happen during genghis khan era.. or even the so called alexander the great.. Or maybe the rome..
You see.. the problem here is.. you couldn't prove if these stories are real..

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 28 2009, 12:43 AM)

You know Mr Sam, I am in pain at each and every innocent soul that being murdered on daily basis from ancient to recent.

2. My @$$.. even Hitler may say the same thing.. Nobody here knew who you are.. You see.. this one of the quotes by Hitler, Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
So, there you go..

3. You doesn't even have a slight the quality to be so called as the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of
thought. You are forcing people not to believe on Dajjal. Don't you think that people that believe in Dajjal because they
want to believe and it is another form of freedom of expression. Your words are contradict.

4. Since you cannot walk the talk.. virtually you lost your credibility.. Credibility does matter.. Even Mousollini has lots of
credibilities. So, what ever you said.. it doesn't have any credibility here..

5. As a normal person, answering your unproven without credibility in this it will make me on par with you.. which i'm
opt not to be..

6. "Humanity is but one family" doesn't suits you well since you have saying about blood from your first post here.. Please..
you'll make those work looks dirty.. do you get what i'm saying..? Those words are only people that have credibility..
such as Mother Teressa.. But who are you again..?

The whole point is there for me not to reply your post eventually.. on this thread.. you may say whatever you want.. and.. you may lie whatever you want..

Or it is better for you to reword it as "go and learn the things that i believed in and you must follow me as i'm the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought.."

The most important thing.. I'm too stupid to reply your post..

kenmirzz

Oct 29 2009, 10:36 PM

Slam dunk phase 2 commence

QUOTE

Your post is too long.. no body here bother to read it.. well, maybe some does..
Plus.. you don't even have the credibility for me dto ebate on.. by posting a long and wordy post doesn't mean that you have the credibility..

Since when did human equates "long post" with falsehood? Is that your logic? By bringing the issue credibility into the scene, you are evading to answer, a denial indeed. Never mind, I am not forcing you, I believe in freedom of expression and freedom of rights.

QUOTE

You couldn't prove to me that does stories are real.. It is something that you believe in..
And you keep on saying the same stories and failed to mention what others have done.. For example what happen in China thousand years ago.. or perhaps what happen during genghis khan era.. or even the so called alexander the great.. Or maybe the rome..
You see.. the problem here is.. you couldn't prove if these stories are real..

Decline to accept a spade as a spade? That's understandable. What happen in China thousand years ago? They left us with records and upon translating those historical documents, we know that they have many dynasties and great civilizations that contributed to humanity. Of course, the negative side should not be ignored, for example, the cruelties of some of the emperors, irrational policies, etc. Same goes with Chniggis Khaan era or Alexander the Great era. There's no perfect civilization set up by humanity.

As far as the story of your own kind goes, you tend to cover up the ugly things and apply double faced attitude towards it as an effort of whitewashing. That is why this criticism. Check some of these letters sent by your own kind to the surrounding sovereign:

Letter to Julanda brothers in Oman

"Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."

Pact of Umar
In the name of Allah, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of Allah Umar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:

We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

…

We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.

WE SHALL NOT MANIFEST OUR RELIGION PUBLICLY NOR CONVERT ANYONE TO IT. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.

We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.

We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.

…

We shall not sell fermented drinks.

…

We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists

WE SHALL NOT DISPLAY OUR CROSSES OR OUR BOOKS IN THE ROADS OR MARKETS OF THE MUSLIMS. WE SHALL USE ONLY CLAPPERS IN OUR CHURCHES VERY SOFTLY. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. "

Letter to Christian of Aylah

To John ibn Rubah and the Chiefs of Aylah. Peace be on you! I praise God for you, beside whom there is no Lord. I will not fight against you until I have written thus unto you. Believe, or else pay tribute. And be obedient unto the Lord and his Prophet, and unto the messengers of his Prophet. Honour them and clothe them with excellent vestments, not with inferior raiment. Specially clothe Zeid with excellent garments. As long as my messengers are pleased, so likewise am I. Ye know the tribute. If ye desire to have security by sea and by land, obey the Lord and his Apostle, and he will defend you from every demand, whether by Arab or foreigner, saving the demand of the Lord and his Apostle. But if ye oppose and displease them, I will not accept from you a single thing, until I have fought against you and taken captive your little ones and slain the elder; for I am the Apostle of the Lord in truth. Believe in the Lord and in his Prophets. And believe in the Messiah son of Mary; verily he is the Word of God: I believe in him that he was a messenger of God. Come then, before trouble reach you. I commend my messengers to you. Give to Harmala three measures of barley; and indeed Harmala hath interceded for you. As for me, if it were not for the Lord and for this (intercession of Harmala), I would not have sent any message at all unto you, until ye had seen the army. But now, if ye obey my messengers, God will be your protector, and Mahomet, and whosoever belongeth unto him. Now my messengers are Sharahbil, &c. Unto you is the guarantee of God and of Mahomet his Apostle, and peace be unto you if ye submit. And convey the people of Macna back to their land

Tariq Bin Ziyad's letter to his troops upon landing in the Iberian Peninsula of Spain

"Oh my warriors, whither would you flee? Behind you is the sea, before you, the enemy. You have left now only the hope of your courage and your constancy. Remember that in this country you are more unfortunate than the orphan seated at the table of the avaricious master. Your enemy is before you, protected by an innumerable army; he has men in abundance, but vou, as your only aid, have your own swords, and, as your only chance for life, such chance as you can snatch from the hands of your enemy. If the absolute want to which you are reduced is prolonged ever so little, if you delay to seize immediate success, your good fortune will vanish, and your enemies, whom your very presence has filled with fear, will take courage. Put far from you the disgrace from which you flee in dreams, and attack this monarch who has left his strongly fortified city to meet you. Here is a splendid opportunity to defeat him, if you will consent to expose yourselves freelv to death. Do not believe that I desire to incite you to face dangers which I shall refuse to share with you. In the attack I myself will be in the fore, where the chance of life is always least.
"Remember that if you suffer a few moments in patience, you will afterward enjoy supreme delight. Do not imagine that your fate can be separated from mine, and rest assured that if you fall, I shall perish with you, or avenge you. You have heard that in this country there are a large number of ravishingly beautiful Greek maidens, their graceful forms are draped in sumptuous gowns on which gleam pearls, coral, and purest gold, and they live in the palaces of royal kings. The Commander of True Believers, Alwalid, son of Abdalmelik, has chosen you for this attack from among all his Arab warriors; and he promises that you shall become his comrades and shall hold the rank of kings in this country. Such is his confidence in your intrepidity. The one fruit which he desires to obtain from your bravery is that the word of God shall be exalted in this country, and that the true religion shall be established here. The spoils will belong to yourselves.
"Remember that I place myself in the front of this glorious charge which I exhort you to make. At the moment when the two armies meet hand to hand, you will see me, never doubt it, seeking out this Roderick, tyrant of his people, challenging him to combat, if God is willing. If I perish after this, I will have had at least the satisfaction of delivering you, and you will easily find among you an experienced hero, to whom you can confidently give the task of directing you. But should I fall before I reach to Roderick, redouble your ardor, force yourselves to the attack and achieve the conquest of this country, in depriving him of life. With him dead, his soldiers will no longer defy you."

QUOTE

My @$$.. even Hitler may say the same thing.. Nobody here knew who you are.. You see.. this one of the quotes by Hitler, Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
So, there you go..

I am afraid to disappoint you my human friend, but most of your kind believed that Hitler was doing the right thing for causing the Holocaust. Whatever it is, that quote from Hitler has nothing to do with the aggression of your own kind. History is in the open and testified so. You have your own records and historical documents, go to these sources and read with open mind, not with closed mind. By using this word "My @$$", you still think that I am not less credible than you?

QUOTE

You doesn't even have a slight the quality to be so called as the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of
thought. You are forcing people not to believe on Dajjal. Don't you think that people that believe in Dajjal because they
want to believe and it is another form of freedom of expression. Your words are contradict.

4. Since you cannot walk the talk.. virtually you lost your credibility.. Credibility does matter.. Even Mousollini has lots of
credibilities. So, what ever you said.. it doesn't have any credibility here..

5. As a normal person, answering your unproven without credibility in this it will make me on par with you.. which i'm
opt not to be..

6. "Humanity is but one family" doesn't suits you well since you have saying about blood from your first post here.. Please..
you'll make those work looks dirty.. do you get what i'm saying..? Those words are only people that have credibility..
such as Mother Teressa.. But who are you again..?

The whole point is there for me not to reply your post eventually.. on this thread.. you may say whatever you want.. and.. you may lie whatever you want..

Or it is better for you to reword it as "go and learn the things that i believed in and you must follow me as i'm the champion of of freedom of expression and freedom of thought.."

The most important thing.. I'm too stupid to reply your post..

So now you praise Mother Teressa? Stop being a hypocrite my human friend, according to your own kind, she will be in hell fire because she is not of your own group. She is an unbeliever whose destined for hell fire. Check your own holy source (9:28). I am not forcing you to accept my arguments at the gun or sword point. Contrastingly, your own kind did the worst things possible, refer to the Letters above. No word game, okay. You accused me of lying while the fact is that I am not, and I will not.

Humanity is but one family.

radzi

Oct 31 2009, 09:50 PM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 29 2009, 11:36 PM)

Slam dunk phase 2 commence

" I praise God for you, "

Hah! Slam Dunk!

kenmirzz

Nov 1 2009, 03:01 AM

QUOTE

Hah! Slam Dunk!

Hello Mr Radzi.

That's my way of debunking a debunked argument. It's Slam Dunk!

Humanity is but one family.

radzi

Nov 1 2009, 09:51 PM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Oct 29 2009, 10:36 PM)

Slam dunk phase 2 commence

Letter to Christian of Aylah

[b]To John ibn Rubah and the Chiefs of Aylah. .........."I praise God for you,"

A weird quote from a Muslim to a Christian stating "I praise God for you". Muslim will just quote: "Praise be to God". We do not use intermediate person as pastor to do our good deeds.

Quran 16:111 ' The day will come when every soul will serve as its own advocate, and every soul will be paid fully for whatever it had done, without the least injustice.'

"I praise God for you" or "I take your sin away from you" or "Jesus sacrificed himself for you" are Christians words....not Muslim's.

....and it is weird such sentences reported came from a Muslim. Do you have any other versions of the said letter? Or do you have the original Arabic or Aramaic version?

kenmirzz

Nov 2 2009, 03:10 AM

QUOTE (radzi @ Nov 1 2009, 09:51 PM)

A weird quote from a Muslim to a Christian stating "I praise God for you". Muslim will just quote: "Praise be to God". We do not use intermediate person as pastor to do our good deeds.

Quran 16:111 ' The day will come when every soul will serve as its own advocate, and every soul will be paid fully for whatever it had done, without the least injustice.'

"I praise God for you" or "I take your sin away from you" or "Jesus sacrificed himself for you" are Christians words....not Muslim's.

....and it is weird such sentences reported came from a Muslim. Do you have any other versions of the said letter? Or do you have the original Arabic or Aramaic version?

Hello Mr Radzi, first and foremost, do you believe in the authenticity of these letters? Or you believe that those documents had been fabricated? Nowadays, your own kind rejected them due to the harshness of messages they conveyed, in contrast with freedom of religion and worship. Do you believe in the Siraa or history books that authored by Ibnu Ishak, At-Tabari, Al-Waqidi, Ibn Hisham and others? Mr Radzi, your own kind mostly for 1400 years accepted intercession by your holy prophet during the judgment day. The Quranic verse that you quoted is in fact contradict the concept of intercession. Take a look at this:

Quran(2:255): "Who is there can intercede in His [Allah’s] presence except as He permitteth."

Quran(20:109): "On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him."

There are many more, but the two verses are suffice for your enlightenment. The statement I praise God for you is not synonymous with Jesus sacrificed himself for you. You are comparing chalk and cheese here, irrelevant. The hadith book Bukhari itself has countless traditions reported about the intercession by your holy prophet. Even the most heavy sinful of your own kind can be forgiven while the moral and good Unbelievers will rot in hell. This is quite a dangerous concept, my human friend.

Here's excerpt from Al-Waqidi:

Ruwaym bin ’Amir narrates from Wâqis bin Sayf ash-Shabkarî:
I was with the army which Abû Bâkr رضي الله عنه sent to Aylah and Palestine under the leadership of ‘Amr bin al-âs رضي الله عنه , with Sa‘îd bin Khâlid bin Sa‘îd رضي الله عنه as flag bearer. I saw him waving the flag and reciting this poem:

We are marching with a small army from the best nation,
Against Disbelievers, Syria is our destination.
They worship the Cross an evil people are they,
I will cut them to the ground, with my sword I will slay.
I will pierce them thoroughly with my spear,
On the battle-field there is nothing I fear
In this war Paradise is my aspiration
And that with the pious be my resurrection.

Disbelievers are always on the losing part in an Islamic State. Please Mr Radzi, I urge you, dig your own sources, your old and historical sources. Take into account the Kutub Sittah, the Siraah and matched them with Quranic verses that discussed about wars, raids and subjugation. Then, you will get a clear picture about why your own kind were never at peace with anybody, even among themselves.

And please don't provide isolated examples of some Sufis (considered heretical by mainstream sect) who practiced celibacy, asceticism and humility and then attribute this as part of your religion. The earliest invaders were not behaving in such a way and they possess several wives and concubines. That is the truth. Nobody is trying to paint the bad image of your religion except retrieving thousand year old historical records and exposing them to the world.

The imaginary picture about your holy prophet was the other way around. Read Suraa At-Tahrim to learn how a universal god was interested in his conjugal life with his rebellious wives. Learn who is Mariyya Qibtiyya, a concubine that he never married. Why should we be jealous of your own kind while all the contribution in science and technology are contributed by Unbelievers. The concept of flat earth was propagated by your own scholars as well, such as Jalaluddin As-Suyuti and Ibn Taymiyya. Recent discovery of spherical earth has nothing to do with your unholy book except your apologists attempted hard to reconcile some verses, translated them in order to fit them into modern terminology. What kind scientific verse is this:

Quran(67:5): "And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire."

Shooting stars act as a missile to attack genies? What kind of rocket science discovery is this? This was an old pagan arabian mythology that had crept into your unholy book. It has no place in science.

Humanity is but one family.

radzi

Nov 2 2009, 05:11 PM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Nov 2 2009, 03:10 AM)

............."your own kind" mostly.............

Humanity is but one family. :)

"my own kind"...."your kind" .....is kind of hypocrite to promote " One Family in Humanity".....don't you think?

radzi

Nov 2 2009, 05:17 PM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Nov 2 2009, 03:10 AM)

Hello Mr Radzi, first and foremost, do you believe in the authenticity of these letters? Or you believe that those documents had been fabricated?
Humanity is but one family.

Even on the surface.... you still have not convince with solid arguments, with proof and evident..... The letter that was supposed be from a Muslim, contained Christian values & believes. Very fishy....

radzi

Nov 2 2009, 05:25 PM

QUOTE (kenmirzz @ Nov 2 2009, 03:10 AM)

....your own kind mostly for 1400 years accepted intercession by your holy prophet during the judgment day. The Quranic verse that you quoted is in fact contradict the concept of intercession.
Humanity is but one family.

Only intercession is by Allah..... thus I go with the Quran.

Intercession is a Christian belief....and some "colonized form of Islam" they introduce than into Islam by twisting the word "shafaat" from one of the hadith.

That is why some Salafi said "tahlil", "kenduri arwah" etc... are "bidaah" innovated acts.

I'll can elaborate on this if you wanted to.....

kenmirzz

Nov 2 2009, 09:54 PM

QUOTE

"my own kind"...."your kind" .....is kind of hypocrite to promote " One Family in Humanity".....don't you think?

Hello Mr Radzi. Please don't get me wrong. When I used the words "your own kind", it's supposed to mean people who subscribe to your own religion, your way of life, whatever sects he or she may belonged to. I do not have the slightest intention to disqualify anyone from the one-family humanity.

QUOTE

Even on the surface.... you still have not convince with solid arguments, with proof and evident..... The letter that was supposed be from a Muslim, contained Christian values & believes. Very fishy....

This is the Arabic version of the letter to Julanda brother in Oman which is displayed in Sohar Fort, Sultanate of Oman. The source of the Letter regarding the Christian of Aylah can be found in Al-Waqidi, page 50 onwards. I don't have the scanned copy of the Arabic version, sorry.

QUOTE

Only intercession is by Allah..... thus I go with the Quran.

So, Mr Radzi rejected the hadith, traditions handed down from generation to generation? That's understandable. Whitewashing effort detected.

QUOTE

Intercession is a Christian belief....and some "colonized form of Islam" they introduce than into Islam by twisting the word "shafaat" from one of the hadith.

My human friend, I hope you are not in sober mood. The concept of intercession is part and parcel of Islamic teaching for more than 1400 years. In your own history, only the Khawarij and later Mu'tazilite rejected while the bulk of majority accepted it, without doubt.

QUOTE

That is why some Salafi said "tahlil", "kenduri arwah" etc... are "bidaah" innovated acts.

I'll can elaborate on this if you wanted to.....

You are shooting at your own feet Mr Radzi, The Wahhabi/Salafi version of Islam is a strict puritanical one, most of the terrorists in the world subscribe to this ideology. If Islam is to take over the whole world, which version of it that suitable to be implemented? Wahhabism/Sunnism/Shiasim/Deobandism/Qadiyanism? The conflict will never end, dark age will commence again.

Yes, civilization never perfect, but to substitute the current civilization to another dangerous political ideology is much worse. I provide examples from history of Islam to see how it had failed by modern standards, it clearly lacking in freedom of belief, freedom of expression, freedom of religion and freedom of rights.

I can elaborate further but I better stop here. A serious thought must be done on this. Humanity must be saved.

Humanity is but one family.