Anybody has any take on being gay? I don't think it's a wholly innate but a combination of factors that include both innate instincts and nurturing influences...

Please, no religious freaks here.. thx!!

I fail to see how [healthy] nurture affects one's [healthy] sexual orientation. Honestly, I just can't think of anything.

/thread

A true homosexual is a genetic inherited factor and not a life style. But in between that and a Hetrosexual that are many variables and combinations of these variables and other corrupting factors that make a clear definition impossible.

The gay gene will never prevail because he or she will not mate with the opposite sex producing an offspring with the gay gene.

Tangy, what are you talking about? Gay gene?

Lets look at a pair of genetic identical twins ...
One man is straight and the other is gay.
Genetically they're the same ... so what is different.
It is something that happened during the development while still inside the womb.
We don't know exactly or for certain ... some believe that it may ...
sorry loaded gun there. Won't say anymore.
Just that you are wrong in you opening hypothesis to start such a thread.


Edit: there is no such thing as a gay gene

martinnuke, unfortunately the variables in the combination of genes is so infinite that such combinations of genes cannot be predictable or controlled. The percentage of certain abnormalities are being created each time couples copulate, and that percentage of homosexual genes that are not normal has always been the same since man and woman was created. It will not die out, it is created afresh in each generation. Go back to the time of Moses and Jesus and Muhammad, and tats problem was there, but not understood. And it will continue to occur as long as man and woman inhabit this earth. Science has given us an insight into this genetic variation.

Do not think that YOU OR ANY OF YOUR FAMILY IS IMMUNE TO THIS PROBLEM. IT COULD APPEAR IN ANY FAMILY AT ANY TIME. It is all in the probability of genetic chance. It is like Mongolism, if could happen to any family at any time. It is one of the genetic variables in nature. If you like, god created life and nature, so blame god if you must blame someone.

Bro, u gotta get up to scratch on teh latest findings coming out of the human genome project... the example of the twins proves just how that all talk about the innate traits versus environmental influences is barking up the wrong tree.. in fact, the latest findings suggest its nature via nurture!!

What do we mean by that?



Through various studies done with twins, fraternal and identical raised together and apart which contribute to determining the role of nature and nurture, the premise these days is that the environment (nurture) acts as a trigger to turn on a wide variety of genes (nature). There are a number of ways that genes get promoted by the environment.

The notion of there being a gay gene should not be discarded, as that don't mean you are going to be a gay for certain. The environment can act as a trigger to turn on that gene, or not. But that don't automatically mean it's the environment or external influences (as some religious nuthead may call it "corrupting factors) that make one a gay, but rather, the environment can either trigger or not trigger the innate trait. Hence, u have the fraternal twin where one remains heterosexual while the other homosexual..

Do u get what I am trying to say in this thread??

You musta heard of the religious gene right?? Some folks are just genetically programmed to be religious freaks... while some of us can step back from it all ... and take a good appraisal at the incredulity and naivete of it all.. i know u can't tho... hehe

You get hit on the head by a brick and causes your brain chemistry to change.

Are you seriously going to tell me that there is a gene for gay???
OMFG, whether you are attracted to same sex or opposite sex is definitely not
nature versus nuture ... It is during the development while still in the womb
that determines gay or not.

You can ask any real gay person whether their environment made them gay.
Or dating the opposite sex caused them to turn gay. Have you no friends who are gay????
The environment may play a role in when someone comes out of the closet
But, it will not make anyone gay.

The programming is to want the opposite sex ...
While in the womb, the programming goes awry and the direction of the want is mis-directed.
It isn't in the genes to be gay. Look up epi-gnome and fetus development for more info.

Well, guess my arguments aren't strong enough to convince you otherwise.
Ehhh, so Tangy, what will it take to make you like guys again????

i guess that was too glib -- gay gene -- it's obviously difficult to identify which one out of the 30,000 gene is gay. Also, there are pretty much many definitions of genes out there, even the stuff u describe about "development" while still in the womb, isn't that so-called "development" the creation of genes??




hahaha, donchu worry grandpa! i got enough on my hands but my best guy fren is a lipstick gay.. !

if the gene has the effect of increasing the number of children it can survive in the gene pool

besides, there's tons of genes that are $hitty but are still around

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article493668.ece

Creation ... no.
Development in the womb is more of the expression of genes.
If a male body has a female expression of the sexual desire then it could mean some thing
just went in the wrong order. Of course, I don't mean to say wrong ... it just didn't go according
to the hetero-sexual pattern. Sometimes things don't always work right?
Cerebal palsy or autism ... just sometime during development.

God, I didn't want to say wrong development or awry ...
Crap, I have gay friends and they are good people ...
Just shoot me??????




I'm just wondering if the environment has somehow turned you gay????

i feel like it's stupid to involve science into this whole gay factor.
don't get me wrong, gay people are awesome. but for them to say it's not our fault we are gay is just stupid.

^ maybe that's cuz you live in America? its not wrong to look at human traits biologically.. homosexuality, mental illnesses etc...from the point of view of genetics and the environment. I know that in America, the biology of homosexuality is a politicized minefield that scares away scientists and the universities and agencies that pay for their research. Even the way avisitor is jumpily reacting with his 'ultra' political correct stance makes it clear that in America, it's a touchy subject.

i for one wonder why didn't evolution shape straight guys to react to their gay fellows by thinking "Great! More women for me now!" The origins of homophobia must lie in the environmental field, a socially induced trait rather than an innate trait...

Can the Autism gene spread by a hot sexy babe raping an Autistic guy?

I think you must have a penis in order to understand homophobia

I'm not jumpy ... it is just that I don't want to sound like I'm condeming gays as a biological wrong.
People are different ... some more than others. But, if they are good people then who cares
if they like what they like.

I like women and say you like women ...
I don't go saying that "oh no, another person who is going to compete with me for women" .
Well, I guess that depends on if you look like another guy

i don't think the science behind homosexuality scares away scientists, i think that it is an excuse to be gay. yeah, you can argue that there are genetics that happened and it causes you to be gay (which i strongly disagree). throughout history, men and women are raised to believe that they can only be attracted to the opposite gender and are brought up to believe that. even the christian bible states that being gay is wrong, even though it contradicts itself because "god loves everyone". this creates social tensions between the gays and the christians, thus with the so called "science of being gay" it gives the christians and the gays to love each other, and theoretically allows people to accept the gays because it is not there fault for being gay. that's why i stated that the gay gene is an excuse. i agree with you that it is a touchy subject, that's why most ignorant americans try to avoid the subject, and by avoiding this subject it causes even more tension that are not spoken by words. more like judgmental views.

Wow, I never thought I'd hear this type of crayola here ... maybe in a church setting
If you're a boy and I raise you as a girl then your body will contradict what you are taught.
Given such circumstances, you can end up becoming a serial killer or just plain dysfunctional or even suicidal.

Men and women aren't so much as taught to want the opposite sex ...
so much as, they grow up naturally wanting to be with the opposite sex.
Inherent in a persons make up ... much like instincts and emotions.
Teaching comes in when a person questions it or behaves differently.

^ it's the process of evolution and darwin's theory of survival. you need to be attracted to the opposite sex in order for there to be off springs. but, that's not the argument.
is there really a gene that causes you to be gay? i don't believe that genetics play a role in causing people not to be attracted to the opposite sex. i think it is an excuse to allow people to accept gays.

Homophobia definitely stems from the Abrahamic faiths. Scientifically it is a variation of the human genome. BTW there are also female homosexuals, everyone here seem to think it is only a man's malady.

why is everyone trying to prove this and that as natural by trying to find a gene? is there a i like big @$$ gene, or saggy boobs gene, or maybe I like to rape little boys then cut their body up and then throw them into the river gene? is there a i like to distribute pamphlets about how you are going to hell then come home and rape my dog gene?

Of course there are all kinds of behavior that can be attributed to the 30,000 something genes in the human body, but the point of this thread is how the environment can affect the switches that turn these genes on.

30,000 genes is not a whole lot of genes to account for the myraid behavioral traits, but the environment, the nurturing side of things are extremely important in affecting the switches that turn the genes on or off to produce the traits we see in ourselves.

The whole debate is no longer Nature versus Nurture. But rather, Nature via Nurture.

Ever wondered why the size of human testicles is larger than a gorilla's but smaller than chimp's???

Will it fit?

Well then I guess they can't blame me if I have sex with little girls...it's just natural for me.

Which gene has the one that got me preferring cheeseburger over regular hamburger?

the genes that tell your body to eat as many calories as possible to a point in order to survive

and there is a big @$$ gene, there's an african tribe with both men and women that have giant asses and hips
fat distribution is purely genetic

there is also a desire to be killed and eaten by someone else gene.

Being gay is not so much a personal choice as it is part .. genetic make up of a person.
Different from being a rapist or murderer.
Although, you seem to put being gay with being a rapist or murderer????
No one is trying to prove anything .. just have a discussion .. please calm down



30,000 genes in combination with each other is more than enough to account for different behavioral
traits. However, not all behavioral traits are determined by genes. There is instinct ...
behaviors that are natural to humans. And there is choice .. choosing to study for a test versus going
out to party all night long. You can't blame every little thing on genes. As a person, you have to
take responsibility for your actions.

Ever wonder why you are so intrigued with the male anatomy?
You been studying testicles lately and observing sizes?

First of all I got nothing against gays, what I got a problem with trying to validate actions via biology. I got tons of gay friends and in fact one of my friend D from college is still the funniest guy I'd rather hang out with. But never once did he try to tell me or force me to believe he is the way he is because he was born that way. If he did believe so, fine. But never ever did he try to validate his sexual orientation to me. He is gay and fine the way he is.

And no I'm not putting them in same class as murderers, in fact I added other categorical questions, cheeseburger or hamburger, ... but the fact is IF i'm biologically predetermined why should I pay the price? If being gay is not their choice so is having sex and murdering children ain't it? My problem is people trying to blame so much on biology.

As for the gay gene studies are still inconclusive and much about it is SO political that even gay researchers think that a lot of scientist vary their research on their social stance rather than neutral scientific research. Think about it, we put so much time in proving homosexuality or any other psychogenetic yet we can't even debate whether or not to use stem cells to research other diseases that are killing people by the thousands today. Because homosexuality, via the conservatives or the liberals are sensationalistic and bringing politics (and or religion) to science.

So, do you go around trying to validate your heterosexuality? Or say that you were born that way?
Of course not, You are who you are. Tangy is trying to start a conversation about gay and its
connection to nature and/or nuture.



That isn't a valid argument. Your actions .. such as rape and murder are not predetermined by your
genetic make up. You must take responsibility for your actions. Or choice of actions.
Your genetic make up pre-determines whether you like to have a hetero or homo .. sexual relationship.
What actions you take after that is your choice (dating men or women or both).



Yes, inconclusive ... but in the same way that we don't need to know where an electron is to
determine where it is going and what it is doing ... we can deduce that there is something
different about gays and staright people. What that is .. is open for discussion.

you can can be biologically predetermined to be a pedophile and you pay the price because LIFE ISNT FAIR
why do people care about the killing of whales when so many cows, chickens, and pigs are killed everyday?

if being gay is a choice why don't you be gay? hahhahahaha
I believe only closed homosexuals or bisexuals would say that homosexuality is a choice
proof: republicans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatopygia fat @$$ genes

And I'm making an argument about nature and nurture in general...

Actually there is an argument much like the rape gene, inconclusive and touche, open for discussion, about the rapist gene http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/2...ve-a-rape-gene/ (from NYTimes blogs) http://www.newsweek.com/id/202789 (from Newsweek)

and the serial killer gene http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_.../killers_9.html (in there you can find the same arguments of parents of gay kids that they were just like that even when they were kids eg. ted bundy who slipped a butcher's knife into his sister's room at 3 years old)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200603/s1597238.htm (MAOA gene from ABC news)

So my actions aren't so 'my actions' so much as I'm fulfilling my genetic self fulfillment much like I didn't chose to like chics or dudes, or if I like fat butts over big t!t$...

The difference between the genes for rape and violence research and gay gene research is this: gay research isn't as important, whether you're gay or not it's fine, inasmuch as it is though, gay gene argument get's more publicity ... why? Because the left and right had made it so. Much like they've made gay marriage first and foremost before all the ails in our country have they not in the last couple of elections? I mean you'd see rightist voting for and running for single issues: gay marriage.

to mndeg, no mndeg it's not 'fat @$$' genes, what I meant was if you read it closer 'I like fat @$$ genes'. Who said life is fair? But the societal values is what change...if I was born black (I was predetermined to be a certain race) in the 1830's it'd would have been fair for me to be a slave. But that's back then.

My point isn't one choose to be gay, but since you agree with 'predetermination (biological)' then really my choice of cheeseburger everyday means that I shouldn't be stigmatized for being fat. It's in my genes I can't help eating french fries and hamburgers.

I truly believe in choice of actions.
Even if you are gay , you get to choose whether you express it in your actions.
So, if there is such a thing as rapist gene or murder gene ...
Your choice of actions must be first and last your responsibility
No, excuse blaming it on genes????
However, there are conditions (nuture) that will make one more or less likely
to commit crimes ... such as up bringing and moral compass.
This doesn't mean you can use it as an excuse.
Choice ... it is what we decide to do that makes all the difference in our lives.

What about all the crazies that are clearly "screwed in the head" that kill people ? Is that a Biological condition or a choice of action?

rape gene could make sense depending on the environment it existed around. game theory +3 rape -5 punishment

liking fat @$$ gene is easy to explain. fat @$$ = having enough resources to have a fat @$$ thus able to bear healthy offspring thus want to put penis in vagina

QUOTE (avisitor @ Nov 5 2009, 06:49 PM) I truly believe in choice of actions.
Even if you are gay , you get to choose whether you express it in your actions.
So, if there is such a thing as rapist gene or murder gene ...
Your choice of actions must be first and last your responsibility
No, excuse blaming it on genes???
However, there are conditions (nuture) that will make one more or less likely
to commit crimes ... such as up bringing and moral compass.
This doesn't mean you can use it as an excuse.
Choice ... it is what we decide to do that makes all the difference in our lives.




Crazies or not .. society has rules and punishment for commiting crimes.
The punishment may be different for people who are determined to be crazy but society doesn't excuse actions done as crimes.

No one said that crazies are only biological (nature) .. some may arise from circumstances (nuture).
So, crazy or not ... your actions will have repercussions and consequences.
Society will put the responsibility of your actions squarely on your shoulders.

Yeah that's why I said 'clearly crazy'.

Sorry I came in the middle of this discussion but what I was trying to get at is that; people that are truly crazy can't help themselves, can we assume gays can't help themselves as well. Not so much in a purely literal action term but in impulse and through a need to relieve whatever anguish pushes them into action.

Crazies feels the need to kill, acting on impulse to satisfy his/her need. Same with attraction more of less, obviously less severe on the action consequences but non the less you feel how you feel.

Can you chalk this up Biologically purely?

Exactly where I want you to get at.

Like you said earlier, NOBODY is trying to prove my sexual orientation...but why do they with gays? We could researching other things but we've plastered all over the news trying to validate or invalidate why gays are gays. Why: SOCIOPOLITICS. We all know this.

I mean my uncle he and all his family thought he was gay. Like that mother who was pro- gay gene theory who said his son was doing all the things that was 'gay' since he was young. My uncle now? Around his teens he became a womanizer up until now. How about that pastor who was caught having man sex with a gay prostitute who did coke with him? I'm sure he grew up thinking he'll never have gay tendencies, but why later on he turned gay?

But even before that last paragraph is asked, the question is does it even matter? How important is it to prove that I like big butts over small and good looking face over a manly looking face? Outside science it's just preference ain't it? Whether its inherent or not.

Scat gene, Necrophilia gene, Zoophilia gene, yes?

Do not jealous.

in chinese there is a symbol called "yin and yang"
i'm sure you heard of that.
every man has a 20% feminine nature,
and the woman also has 20% of masculinity.
if a man/woman exceeds that 20% he/she will turn to gay or lesbo.

at least that's what i learned from my mentor.

Obviously by mutation, just like any other gene. In Africa, where light skin leads to death, there are still people who are albino. Go figure. Besides, if the homosexual gene is recessive, it could be carried by a large number of heterosexuals without them knowing it, and so children of heterosexuals can be homosexuals.

Some people like Chocolate Ice Cream, others prefer Vanilla. Some don't like Ice Cream at all, and some are even lactose intolerant.

gay can go to hell.......may all gay people get HIV virus......why?? because it meant for freak and mental illness people like gay hahahahaha....I dont need to use religion to counter gay.....a normal person with healthy mind can know that they are freak and has mental ilness.

if a man likes a girl its normal and its meant like that. the final purpose is to get birth child........for gay .....they give birth to $hit .....and gay full of $hit......they only like to play with $hit that stink....so gay$hit

gay can go to hell.......may all gay people get HIV virus......why?? because it meant for freak and mental illness people like gay hahahahaha....I dont need to use religion to counter gay.....a normal person with healthy mind can know that they are freak and has mental ilness.

if a man likes a girl its normal and its meant like that. the final purpose is to get birth child........for gay .....they give birth to $hit .....and gay full of $hit......they only like to play with $hit that stink....so gay$hit

yeah.... the gay gene does not exist.. lol

[quote name='flipcombatmedic' date='Nov 5 2009, 10:42 PM' post='4366874']
And I'm making an argument about nature and nurture in general...

Don't tell me if your father or brother or son turns out to be gay, you don't wonder what the origin of his gayness might come from?? Of course the suggestion of the gay gene has been hijacked by the pro-gay lobby for their political activism, but that said, the existence of the gay gene has been misleading..

We are approaching a profound but little understood revolution in our understanding of the nature-nuture controversy. We are making new discoveries about how humans can learn to turn their genes on and off to create a better brain and health throughout their lifetime. We are not puppets dancing to the tune of our genes as many popular but simple-minded theories would maintain. The opposite is the true situation. Genes have active partners within every cell of our brain and body that respond in an adaptive manner to cues from our environment.

In this thread, i think you have all failed to come to this new understanding about how genes and environment interact.

Why? I thought the whole purpose of being open is not having to ask why he's this or that. I mean you're trying to act like you're open but you question the reasons why someone prefer things they like? That they have to prove they're biological to be accepted? Ain't that shallower than the anti-gays who at least don't question homosexuality as it exist?

Failed? Wow I didn't know we were being tested. Nor I didn't know that the one who started this thread had a PhD on psychogenetics to have the authority to test us. I mean this is a forum out of opinion...I mean the fact that the gay gene question is not hundred percent resolved and still controversial, how the hell one opinion can triumph above as if we're answering 1+1.

And as for genetics, where in here did I ever said about wrong pretense. my last post summarize this: by showing others the genetic tendencies, it still about our own decisions that matter...no one would simple acquit Ted Bundy simply as natural genetic killer nor allow rapist simply because there's a genetic study that pin point their tendencies.

Tangy has put herself above us and judged us to be bad ... oohhh, the pangs of outrageous fortune???
Simply, she is no more qualified to fly a jumbo jet or a kite ... slings and arrows???

Ted Bundy was born into a strict christain family. His father denounce gays.
Ted grew up confused because of his gay tendencies.
He would go out and invite men to his apartment and have sex with them.
When he couldn't resolve his actions with his upbringing, he killed the guy as a way of suppressing
his wrongs and correcting his gay actions. This is all in the FBI profile of Ted Bundy as a killer.
Nature and nuture helped to create a killer.

And, to put it simply, Flip has a good point .. I just don't agree with it 100 %.
Tangy on the other hand is too self righteous and thinks only her views are correct????

Goodness gracious, am I lording over you big boys with the question of gay origins?? Oh dear... they are not my views, it's the latest scientific views i am trying to put across to you guys.. I detest self-righteous folks, especially those who are trying to act PC all the time..

Oh it's so shallow to question the origin of gayness, the whys and hows ...

We should just LOVE em and ACCEPT em as they are... jeez...

I don't think any gay activist would simply support the acquittal of a Ted Bundy juz cuz the origins of his behavior and actions are explained in a court of law..

Just because one is interested to find out the origins of gayness don't mean one is politically motivated to acquit all homosexuals of deviant activities. But is sure helps to rebut those religious types who keep harping on about how homosexuals are going against god's will and the laws of nature... bla bla...

I have a gay cousin who is going to have a surrogate child soon .. we chat alot about the origins of gayness and it's a fascinating subject when we come to understand how the environment can trigger the natural instincts that are latent in our genes. It so happens that his mom is rather prolific and bred a large family size too. It could just be true that gay genes enables the mother to increase her brood.

There are probably pedophile genes and genes that make you more predisposed to rape. In game theory if you can rape and get away with it it would benefit your genes. If there was no religion the country or world could adapt more progressive policies such as making rape simulators so people with rape genes can get it out of their system without harming anyone. Oh wait, actually Japan already has rape games. LOL
Same with pedophiles. And zoophiles. And people that want to be killed and eaten.

It's a little simplistic to think rape and paedophilia is attributed to just the genes alone..

Genes are both the cause and consequence of our actions. Genes not only shape our experience and are also shaped by experience! Every minute, every second, the pattern of genes being expressed in your brain changes, often in direct or indirect response to events outside the body. Genes are the mechanism of experience.

Hard to understand? I recommend this book i've been reading "Nature via Nurture" by Matt Ridley... you can read the main excerpts here from this site and it just about explains it all.. http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=2818

Oh, the difference in size of testicles between chimps and gorillas is explained there too in case some of u are intrigued!