I didn't know Yunnan was a pretty big province. We know Lao Lanxang extended all the way to Sisongpanna in Yunnan, China. But did it include all of Yunnan? When did the French give this part of our land to China?

So far that i know. Sisongpana is more like a city state just like Viengchan, Luangprabang and Champasack, and been playing a chess game with Qing, Burma and Thailand.

Chiang Hung then came under the suzerainty of Qing dynasty for about 100 years ago. After the Chinese Empire was overthrown by the revolution, the kingdom status of Chiang Hung technically ended. In 1953, the armies of People's Republic of China seized Chiang Hung. Some royal members fled to northern Thailand. The modern descendants royal family of Chiang Hung still bear the surname Dao.

His name is Dao Khamlue and he is now 77 year old...

I thought the French gave Sisonpanna to China?

Dude, you're very misinformed, Sisonpanna was always part of China. Where do you learn your history from?

Yunnan being part of Laxang?...Just what are you smoking?

I think he is talking about apart of the history connecting with china old pass territory. And is something that a khmer wouldn't understand because there is no relation in that part of the history.

Dude, there's plenty of connection with Khmer in Thailand. In fact most of thai culture was stolen from the khmer courts but you will never see us trying to connect Thailand with Cambodia.

Dude asked if Yunnan was part of laxang and I simple provided him with the truth, you got that? Yunnan is part of China and lao was not the only group.

Get off they nuts, lao d!ckrider

Yunnan was a territory of the Nanman people (Tibeto-Burman speakers).
All Tai speakers came from southeast China, not southwest.
southeast = Cantonese, Teochew and all those other southern Chinese.

The powerful Tai kingdom of Nanchao held sway over Yunnan for 247 years, during the Tang dynasty (AD 618-907), but was replaced by the Dali Kingdom in 937AD. For 300 years, Dali ruled supreme until, in 1253

Sisonpanna was trying her best to maintain independent, but it was already under heavy Qing influenced and claimed by them. Yunnan had been opened to trade by the French in the settlement by the sino-french war in 1884-1885. China's national power was weakened after it lost the Opium War in 1840, and Yunnan was yielded to British and French imperialism - the French building the Hanoi-Kunming railway line to exploit the province's resources. The British occupied territory in northwestern Yunnan, and forced China to concede territory in what is now the Myanmar state of Kachin.

France regarded Yunnan as within its sphere and tried to colonize Yunnan. the French built Hanoi-Kunming railway line to exploit the province's resources, but never completed colonizing.


http://eculture.su.ac.th/cgi/show/first.ph...71&city_id=

Nobody said that the entire Yunnan was part of lanxang.

Yunnan was never part of China back then. Anything below the Yangtze River is considered to be territory under Tai or "barbarians".

You might want to take a look at this link.

Pre 200 BC
Ai-lao people (proto Thai people) inhabit parts of Yunnan and control routes into Sichuan and Burma. Already these peoples moving S to northern Thailand due to population pressures from above as well as desire to maintain their independence. Those remaining in N are influenced linguistically and culturally by Han; equally, Chinese settlers in Yunnan area influenced by local people.

http://www.haiweitrails.com/timeline_sw_china.htm

Tai people originated from Taiwan. Obviously from SE and then moved to the west Austro-asiatic Mon-Khmer territories.

Would you like to share your source?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Yunnan

as usual, nobody knows what they are talking about in here.

I was refering to China as in Zhou, Shang, and Xia. Ancient China back then is about the Yellow River. Nothing below the Yangtze.

you replied to this



check the dates for the Lao kingdom Lanxang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan_Xang

1300s.


you decided to respond with






so, what do you mean by back then? 1300 AD??? XIA WAS 2000 BC buddy. how funny you replied to a post that made reference to the 1300s and decided to talk about Ancient China instead of Imperial China.

Yunnan was Imperial China's a millennium before Lan Xang existed. always a circus of garbage in here

The one from Wiki about lanxang is more like a siamese propagada version. There are so many mistakes in the article.

1/ In 1359 the Khmer king gave the Pra Bang to his son-in-law, the first Lang Xang monarch Fa Ngum (1353-1373). His Khmer wife was instrumental in welcoming a religious and artistic mission that brought with it a statue of the Buddha, the Phra Bang, Not his Ayutthaya wife. In 1368 Fa Ngum's Khmer wife died.

2/ Oun Heuan Fah Ngum's son, Half Khmer/Lao changed his name to Samsenthai (300 thousands thai), Samsenthai never paid tribune to Ayuttaya. Laos lanxang was in its strongest period. 300 years later when Lanxang was in declined, that when tribune started.

3/ True, that The kingdom, made up of Lao, Thai, and various ethnic hill tribes, lasted in its approximate borders for another 300 years and briefly reached an even greater extent in the northwest.

4/ True, Fa Ngum's descendants remained on the throne at Luang Prabang for almost 600 years after his death, maintaining the independence of Lan Xang to the end of the 17th century through a complex network of vassal relations with lesser princes. At the same time, these rulers fought off invasions from Vietnam (1478-79), Siam (1536), and Burma (1571-1621).

5/ True, In 1694, however, Lan Xang fell prey to a series of rival pretenders to its throne, and, as a result of the ensuing struggles, split into three kingdoms in 1707: Luang Prabang, Vientiane, and Champasak which they each pay tributarie to Ayutthaya. Muang Phuan enjoyed a semi-independent status as a result of having been annexed by a Vietnamese army in the 15th century, an action that set a precedent for a tributary relationship with the court of Viet Nam at Hué.

He said "part of China", notice how China back then means the the area around the Yellow River and above the Yangtze. Did he said imperial china? i don't think so. >,<

It showed how much this MidNight person is a flawed and relevant.

i dont care. go change it then. i only need 2 numbers. if 1300s is not wrong, it doesn't matter. actually it wouldn't matter even if it was 1000 years wrong. 100 BC was when Yunnan became China's.




are you retarded? China is all of it. historians have decided to divided it into 3 periods. Ancient China (Xia Shang Zhou), Imperial China (Qin to Qing) and modern (PRC).


his time frame was Lanxang, 1300s. you expect me to believe you decided to talk about Ancient China instead of Imperial China which would be the same time frame???

that is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.


get it through your head



you would only be right if by "back then" you meant 3000-4000 years ago. which would be even MORE retarded because the post you replied to made reference to a 1300s kingdom.

The hell are you smoking? Quit smoking those opium i thought the great opium wars were long over for reasons like this.

I was saying that Tai people were ALWAYS living in Yunnan before and after any of the Chinese periods. Therefore, Lanxang rose from those Tai people. Therefore, the area was never China until a certain time period which would be during the imperial.

I never said anything about 1300s because we all know Tai people were always living in Southern China below the Yangtze. Are you trying to say that Lanxang was a Han empire? OMG claiming something now?

I just added some stuffs into it, but i can not edit the main frame. Part of Yunnan used to be part of Laos Lanxang, not the entire Yunnan.

What ever it's is between you and Hmong boy sisavong.

midnight is smokin something good then, thats why he or she is all hype up about history. You know we still supply opium to China.

Still smoking that opium even after the British conquered them. What do we need? A third opium war? I just hope it's not Kung fu vs guns again.

are you like, incapable of understanding simple concepts? time? is that beyond your understanding?

you retard, Lanxang IS 1300s.

"Therefore, Lanxang rose from those Tai people. Therefore, the area was never China until a certain time period which would be during the imperial."

how can anyone's brain be so useless. that "certain time period" it became China's was over a millennium before Lan Xang existed.

ill say it very clearly, even a child with your mental capacity can understand ok? you responded to a post that referenced a 1300s kingdom by making a claim based on ancient china. imperial china has the 1300s included in it. so perhaps you can tell everyone who in their right mind would go so far back and avoid a matching time frame?

and what do you hope to claim by saying Tai lived there? yes, apparently we all used to live in Africa as well? do you understand the difference between living somewhere and establishing an actual state/kingdom? id say with your track record its unlikely. very unlikely.

claim Lan Xang? ill ignore this since apparently you are Hmong. which is pretty stupid. you know interesting things happened to the Hmong in China during the same dynasty as the Opium wars. i wouldnt giggle so much about it if i were you.

My gosh, Lanxang is just a fantasy to the Laos, like how Shang, Zhou are fantasy to the Chinese.
Every ethnic groups have their fantasy.

What about the natives to those land? What did they called those land?

A small group of people making things out of proportion. Do you know this tactic?
The Boston Massacre in the United States. It wasn't a massacred. About only 9 or so early colonists were accidentally killed by the British, because
the colonists were taunting them so they defended themselves by shooting at the 9 colonists. This event came to be known as the "BOSTON MASSACRE" in American history.

C'mon.

Chinese history is full of exaggeration as well as every ethnic groups history.

JUST LIKE HOW THE CHINESE CALLED THE EASTERN PART OF YUNNAN "WENSHAN, YUNNAN" while HMONG IN CHINA CALLED IT "BA-TE LA."
Every ethnic groups have their own terms for the land they're living in.

Being part of China before Lanxang existed? So Hans were living there before the Tai people? I thought Han people claim to be desecendents os Xia to the north. So now they are from both the south and north. Got-cha

your lack of intelligence is not even amusing, just irritating.

Lan Xang is a 1300s kingdom.

read it from a Lao member.


now how does your dumb @$$ explain that Lan Xang existed before the FIRST Lan Xang monarch. oh please do tell.


its 1300s you retard. now read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Yunnan

dont confuse a bunch of Tai groups with no unified state as a kingdom like Lan Xang.


this has nothing to do with who was living there first. this is about whether or not it was a part of China.

it was. through conquest and before the creation of Lan Xang.

Some argue that today Han Chinese are from the Tibetan plateau (southwest). Remember, that each dynasty is different from the next.
Xia dynasty is a myth, yet claimed as an actual dynasty by the Chinese. It wasn't a dynasty at all. It was just a tribal group of people that pushed out other native tribes. Today Han Chinese believe that they're from that particular tribe because that tribe fought and ruled out other tribes.

DNA suggested that Han Chinese came from the cold climate of Tibet.

If Chinese tell you that they're pure Han from the north. There is no such thing.

Ever heard of the Northern and Southern Dynasties? The Northern people conquered the north (Di, Rong, Qiang, Xiongnu(tuoba)), pushing the Chinese down south.
During the Han Dynasty, the Chinese married lots of northern tribes.

If you take Chinese history, it is nothing but fantasy. Lots of exaggeration and out of proportion events.

according to the oral history of the Lao Tai, Sipsongpanna was ruled by a prince of Khun Borom. The group of prince from Khun Borom dynasty ruled Sipsongpanna, Sipsongchaotai, Loungprabang, Xiengkhouang, and Chiangsean around the year 700 AD, pretty much all of Nothern Laos, Nothern Thailand, Nothern Burma, and southern Yunnan. These Lao Tai kingdoms used a system of lose confederations, helping one another defend off threats but were independent Kingdoms with their own ruling family and nobles from the same Family.

It was FaNgum a prince from Loungprabang who conquered and united all these seperate kingdom into 1 and called it Lanxang in the 1300's. Even the Mekong River is called the Lanxang river in China.

exactly what i'm trying to say. They were there for a long time. Somehow Hans were there first according to Midnightsun.

Xishuangbanna is just a small part of Yunnan,

Most Yunnan Han living to the north of Xishuangbanna, they arrived there around 2000 years ago. According history record, during Han dynasty there are some Han living in modern time Baoshan and they did business trade with modern time myanmar and india.
Before mongol empire's time, the last kingdom of Yunnan was called Dali. Dali's King, Duan's family claimed they were from modern time northwest of china and at least they claimed they were Han.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dali


BTW

Before opium war, china has already known how to make guns but the guns made in china was worse than made in britain.


Thans for ur supply,enthic Dai has a lot of drug addict now.

no it wasnt retard.

and thats not what i said either.



once again, for the mental lag you seem to have.


oh yes it was. through conquest.

read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Yunnan

Yunnan was gradually sinicized during the last thousand years. It was conquered and ruled earlier, but mostly through co-option of local elites. It was the Yuan, Ming, and Qing that integrated the region into China through direct administration.

For further information, see:

Amid the Clouds and Mist
China's Colonization of Guizhou, 1200—1700
John E. Herman

If u talked about sinicized, then Yunnan began to sinicized during Han dynasty 2000 years ago. Both Nanshao and Dali accept han's culture, the king of Dali even claimed he is a han's decedent. If talked about totally sinicized, till today it is still not totally sinicized.

I think the point is that there was a qualitative difference between China's presence in Yunnan before 1200 and its presence after 1200. The former period was based on the feudal practice of indirect rule, while the latter was based on direct rule by the imperial bureaucracy.

Yunnan was totally direct ruled by central government after 1949. Before 1949, at least more than half Yunnan was ruled by local people themselves.
If talked about when Han people immigrated to Yunnan, then according to history record/archaeology, at least Baoshan(the northwest of Yunnan to the border of myanmar) was first built by Han people around 109 B.C.
http://www.yntv.cn/yntv_web/category/30102...1_3010201.shtml

Thankyou. You just provided the proof i need for my argument.

Very unlucky, Local people do not equal to DAI.And although they have autonomy right but they also receive the rule by central government.
Before 1949, the last ruler of Yunnan was a black Yi called Longyun, and sorry, he think Yunnan is part of china.


now it's ur turn to prove, lao lived in Yunnan before 109 BC.

hhhhmmm... i thought most ethnic minorities in China had southern orgins. Bouyi, Tai/Dai, Miao-Yao, etc. Wasn't Yunnan home to Mon-Khmer speaking people prior to the Tai migration from the east? During that time, the SINOTIBETANS were still at the Yellow River.

Also, i wouldn't say that yunnan was part of China just because "hua" people were there. So White folks living in Texas under the Mexican government could claim that Texas was always part of the USA because white folks were living there. Don't even begin with your counter of saying that the authorities of Yunnan were Hans. I don't think that matters. Borders between countries was a western thing. Never a chinese idealogy.

Evidence? Even chinese historians can not prove this.
I think I said clearly Han enterred Yunnan around 109 BC and built our own city. Even during Nanshao and Dali kingdom's time, han also play an important part in both 2 kingdoms. Dali's king even claimed he is a han's decendent. 2000 years is enough for people to claim they are native there. Or laos are also not the native of Lao PDR, which means Lao PDR is like Texas of asia.
So now it is ur turn to prove in fact u people living in Yunnan before 109 BC. Show me ur evidence please.Do not avoid my question. And I do not accept theory based on myth. It is too silly.

Sadly i do not have anything to counter this. But don't celebrate just yet, Xia is all but a myth too. Yet, Chinese nationalist claim to be descendents of Xia and are "pure" and not mixed with SEA.

Pure race from a myth.

I don't study Chinese history nor those ethnic minorities and so i only know what's available on the net. Don't be decieved, Tai are not my people. I don't speak a Tai-kadai language so yeah... don't try to take this to the personal level too. I never directly say YOUR people in reference to Sinotibetans did i?

Any chinese here claim Xia's existence? I found only u gays like to claim Xia's existence.
Oh I forget to tell u Xia means middle kingdom people(chinese) in ancient chinese. And I think I also forget to tell u chinese do not care about their motherline?
Thanks a lot for u so concern chinese pure or not pure. But sorry it is none of ur business.
So u can stop to be a chinese historian/tai historian, can u?

The term "CHINESE" is a recent thing. No ancient ethnic groups believe that they were part of China. RIDICULOUS.

Even today, any ethnic groups called the same home town in many names.

WENSHAN to the HMONG would be known as PA-TE LA.
Don't know about YI and the ZHUANG of WENSHAN, but I do know that they don't called it WENSHAN in their native languages.

There are Mon-Khmer speaking people in Yunnan. They are known as the WA or VA.

In ancient time, rival groups often come together, but at the same also go to war with one another. It exists in all cultures. Just because one group called their rivals as brothers, doesn't not mean they mean it or etc.. it's just a sign of respect stem from the first contact.

It's just like native americans helping out the early American colonists. Although there were hatred and etc.. there were those who didn't have the hate and still see one another as equal and etc..

First thing first, you know nothing. Nobody cares about XIA; however, because it is taught in Chinese History class, it's debatable that you Chinese do care about XIA although you like to say that it doesn't exist which of course, no one knows for sure. There are many debates that XIA doesn't exist. The only reason why XIA exist because oral history of other ethnic groups mentioned the XIA people.

Chinese history is a collective history of many series of events that happened.

Tell you the truth, Chinese history from one region to the other would be different, but because one piece is often collected from one group, this piece would often come to represent the entire Chinese history.

The people who called themselves Tang would have different history from other Chinese groups. It's all different, but quite similar in some ways; however, the dominant group's history will be considered as the best to fix the Chinese history that is being taught in class.
until the CHUANQIU PERIOD.

Sorry chinese is a English word for chinese people.And sorry again even before 1949, although the ruler of Yunnan Gen LongYun is not an enthic of Han, he still believe Yunnan is part of china.


Have anyone here except ur hmong guys claimed the existence of Xia? Oh I forget to tell u even in chinese history class, the teacher would tell u whether Xia exist or not is still debatable.U want to tell me in fact the first history book Shiji of china is other enthic's oral history record. Pretending to be a chinese historian must be a hard job for u.


Sorry obviously chinese are lack of interest to the other enthic's things. So even today a lot of record to the other enthics are really fluzzy.


U do not know there is professional historian governor in china? again why pretend to know all things about china?


Tang/Han/Hua/Xia are the same thing. Both manju and mongol have been dominant groups in chinese history. But sorry today Chinese historians still know little about both enthic's pre-history.


The first dictionary of chinese said clearly, Xia means middle kingdom's people.
What does that mean? U mean china do not exist before now?
Oh sorry the word Zhongguo(middle kingdom)first appearred around 3000 years ago. It was found on some bronze implements.
And if u talked about the english word China, sorry it obviously exists before modern time. At least indian has used the word cina for a long time

You don't speak for him. You don't know how he thinks. You weren't even born during that time. You believe, not him.
Sorry, the term Chinese is a recent term, which gives you no right to say that ancient figures believe their land belong to CHINA, because simply, the word CHINA didn't exist back then.

you try to play smart here, but not intelligent enough.

"China" is based on "Qin"

Chinese using 中国 was used before Qin Dynasty.

whos trying to play smart?