Full Version: Korean descendents conquered China.
banned
hahahaha....talk about grasping straws. what a pathetic attempt to claim Jurchen and Manchu history
LOL i saw this retard getting owned in so many videos.
i remember some guy asked him why Qing invaded Joseon. he had no answer.
i remember some guy asked him why Qing invaded Joseon. he had no answer.
He's just a troll, his goal is to get people riled up and thanks to the many angry responses he gets, it's obviously working.
Where was teokbogi created?
Meh, not a single academic source, with the majority being youtube videos. Not a good way to make an argument. If you really want to be taken seriously, at least cite the original source (Jinshu) and Frederick W. Mote's analysis. It speaks little to your credibility when your citation list consists of, essentially, Wikipedia and Altaic nationalist websites.
All that being said, it is entirely possible that the Jin royal family had ancestral relations with the Silla royal family, though if I were you, I'd look a little deeper into the Silla royal family to find out why. The link with Qing, though, is more tenuous. The Jin royal family was massacred by the Mongols when they took northern China, so direct descent is unlikely. Most of the arguments relating to this claim have, consequently, traditionally been regarded as nationalist revisionism on the part of Korean nationalists.
All that being said, it is entirely possible that the Jin royal family had ancestral relations with the Silla royal family, though if I were you, I'd look a little deeper into the Silla royal family to find out why. The link with Qing, though, is more tenuous. The Jin royal family was massacred by the Mongols when they took northern China, so direct descent is unlikely. Most of the arguments relating to this claim have, consequently, traditionally been regarded as nationalist revisionism on the part of Korean nationalists.
this made me laugh. thank you for making my day.
QUOTE (Pentasori @ Nov 5 2009, 10:15 AM) 
this made me laugh. thank you for making my day.
Well, let's make this clear: Korean descendants did not conquer China. The Jurchens (Wanyan clan + allies) and the Manchus (Aisin clan + allies) did, and they were not Koreans. However, "Korean" descendants might have joined those clans and become leaders within them; that's the contention, which only in the mouths of nationalists become something as hyperbolic as "Korean descendants conquered China."
QUOTE (BurdenOfAges @ Nov 5 2009, 11:40 AM)
Well, let's make this clear: Korean descendants did not conquer China. The Jurchens (Wanyan clan + allies) and the Manchus (Aisin clan + allies) did, and they were not Koreans. However, "Korean" descendants might have joined those clans and become leaders within them; that's the contention, which only in the mouths of nationalists become something as hyperbolic as "Korean descendants conquered China."
Adding even further to how silly it is, many Han Chinese also joined the Jurchen/Manchus in their conquest of China and the creation of the Qing, therefore Han Chinese conquered China too. LOL gotta love how logic works.
banned
Are the KBS videos legitimate?
banned
QUOTE (Shyn @ Nov 5 2009, 11:28 PM)
Are the KBS videos legitimate?
What do you mean by "legitimate?" Were they real KBS videos? Yes, I believe so. Is the research sound? Not certain. Like I said, most Western scholars are dubious of the claims that the Jurchens were "Korean." But they would not deny, I think, that some of ancestors of the Jurchens (ie the Mohe confederation) were part of kingdoms that we designate as Korean history today. Most Korean historians make a distinction between the Mohe and the Koreans, perhaps because this distinction was drawn by the later historians of Goguryeo and Balhae, and Koreans would like to identify with the people of Goguryeo and Balhae, rather than the people that Goguryeo and Balhae regarded as being of "different tribe." However, like the Xianbei-Han Chinese distinction there is reason to believe significant acculturation and assimilation took place. This changed once Goguryeo and Balhae were destroyed by the Tang/Silla and the Khitans, respectively, after which Manchuria became separated from Korea and the tribes there developed (or perhaps reclaimed) their own ways. Still, the possibility of common origins exists, but is hard to validate because of the lack of early writing. All that we know come from later records, and they, true to their time, are not amenable to modern ethnic analysis (ie, you could figure out what country and clan a man was from, but what the ethnic composition of his country was, it's hard to tell, because in those times the groupings were different).
All in all, the history of the Korean peninsula and southern Manchuria is complicated, and is at times as heterogeneous in terms of tribes and groups as China, though to a lesser scale. What is Korean and what is not Korean is an interpretation that Korean nationalist historians must ultimately decide, and I have no doubt that they will do so, like all nationalist historians, with present day concerns in mind.
QUOTE (Dokiroimaka @ Nov 6 2009, 01:16 AM)
^ Yes they are, KBS is South Korean government owned TV station.
I don't know if this is deliberate attempt by Korean government run agency counter China's claimant on Goguryeo/Balhae and recent Chinese claims on discovery of old Han~Ming walls at Liaoning and Yalu/Amrok river, according to Korean scholars these walls were Goguryeo walls.
This discussion have going around for decades, I do agree with some argument for Jin/Qing founder may have been Korean origin as even Chinese texts shows they were from Shilla/Koryo. But actual clans were Jurchen/Manchu IMO.
People should know, Korean tribes were the original inhabitants of Liaoning, Southern Manchuria, Primorsky Krai and Korean peninsula.
These areas have been original birth place of all ancient Korean tribes as well as genetically closer to modern Koreans.
This was why China, Russia even Japan favor division of Korean peninsula.
Because these areas are more closer to Korean cultural centers than theirs.
I don't know if this is deliberate attempt by Korean government run agency counter China's claimant on Goguryeo/Balhae and recent Chinese claims on discovery of old Han~Ming walls at Liaoning and Yalu/Amrok river, according to Korean scholars these walls were Goguryeo walls.
This discussion have going around for decades, I do agree with some argument for Jin/Qing founder may have been Korean origin as even Chinese texts shows they were from Shilla/Koryo. But actual clans were Jurchen/Manchu IMO.
People should know, Korean tribes were the original inhabitants of Liaoning, Southern Manchuria, Primorsky Krai and Korean peninsula.
These areas have been original birth place of all ancient Korean tribes as well as genetically closer to modern Koreans.
This was why China, Russia even Japan favor division of Korean peninsula.
Because these areas are more closer to Korean cultural centers than theirs.
I sincerely doubt any major part of modern Liaoning and Southern Manchuria, outside of Yanbian, is closer to the Korean cultural sphere than the Chinese cultural sphere. I am even doubtful that they were during the Ming Dynasty seven hundred years ago. The separation between Korean culture and the nomadic culture of southern Manchuria occurred fairly early, such that by the time of Goryeo, it was already plain that the Jurchens and the Koreans regarded each other as distinct groups. This difference was exacerbated as Goryeo and then Joseon took on even more sedentary ways of life and ended up with Koreans regarding the nomads to their north as essentially barbarians; meanwhile, the Jurchens saw Koreans as just another vassal kingdom to subjugate.
But this is all besides the point. The real reason for my doubts is that Liaoning, Southern Manchuria, etc. were largely colonized by Chinese from Shandong, Hebei, and Shanxi rather recently. These people have little connections to Korean culture or history.
QUOTE (BurdenOfAges @ Nov 6 2009, 05:38 PM)
I sincerely doubt any major part of modern Liaoning and Southern Manchuria, outside of Yanbian, is closer to the Korean cultural sphere than the Chinese cultural sphere today. I am even doubtful that they were during the Ming Dynasty seven hundred years ago. The separation between Korean culture and the nomadic culture of southern Manchuria occurred fairly early, such that by the time of Goryeo, it was already plain that the Jurchens and the Koreans regarded each other as distinct peoples.
banned
wahahaha these korean claims are so weak.
Liao/Khitan - Northern Chancellery (steppes) used Khitan language. Southern Chancellery (included BALHAE people) used Chinese as the official language. The Yaolian Imperial Clan used Chinese surnames. In fact, Tang bestowed "Li" to the first Yaolian Khan.
oh yes, Chinese should claim Liao since apparently Korean can with such a weak link.
Jin/Jurchen - Jurchens allied with Nothern Song to attack Liao. they even had a deal where 16 Yanyun states went back to Song for helping from the south. As for Koreans, Yejong of Goryeo refused to have diplomacy with Jin. (makes this even more epic for Koreans to claim LOL).
Emperor Hailingwang (海陵王) of Jin actually went on a quest to be Chinese LOLOLOL. this funny guy actually moved his capital to Beijing from the historic Jurchen capital Huining. 1157 he ordered the palaces in Huining to be destroyed!
how come none of these guys go on a quest to become Goryeo for example? oh yes, Chinese should claim Jin as well, since Koreans weak claim is ok.
and in case anyone wonders, i dont claim it. i acknowledge Song then Southern Song as "China". if Jin succeeded in their invasion to unify China that would change, but it didnt. it was Yuan who did.
Liao/Khitan - Northern Chancellery (steppes) used Khitan language. Southern Chancellery (included BALHAE people) used Chinese as the official language. The Yaolian Imperial Clan used Chinese surnames. In fact, Tang bestowed "Li" to the first Yaolian Khan.
oh yes, Chinese should claim Liao since apparently Korean can with such a weak link.
Jin/Jurchen - Jurchens allied with Nothern Song to attack Liao. they even had a deal where 16 Yanyun states went back to Song for helping from the south. As for Koreans, Yejong of Goryeo refused to have diplomacy with Jin. (makes this even more epic for Koreans to claim LOL).
Emperor Hailingwang (海陵王) of Jin actually went on a quest to be Chinese LOLOLOL. this funny guy actually moved his capital to Beijing from the historic Jurchen capital Huining. 1157 he ordered the palaces in Huining to be destroyed!
how come none of these guys go on a quest to become Goryeo for example? oh yes, Chinese should claim Jin as well, since Koreans weak claim is ok.
and in case anyone wonders, i dont claim it. i acknowledge Song then Southern Song as "China". if Jin succeeded in their invasion to unify China that would change, but it didnt. it was Yuan who did.
^ Lol
Your Song texts says Jin founder came from Shilla/Koryo, so your limited knowledge of history failed from start.
Good luck with Hong Kong, wasn't that was your home?
It's even funnier when Hong Kong Chinese are desperately try to claim the rest of East asian history as theirs.
Hong Kong Chinese are suddenly proud of rise of China.
Must be very insecure.
Your Song texts says Jin founder came from Shilla/Koryo, so your limited knowledge of history failed from start.
Good luck with Hong Kong, wasn't that was your home?
It's even funnier when Hong Kong Chinese are desperately try to claim the rest of East asian history as theirs.
Hong Kong Chinese are suddenly proud of rise of China.
Must be very insecure.
that was a pitiful attempt at a rebuttal LOL.
Quite frankly all of this historical debating is irrelevant, since CHina and Russia has all the land that Goguryeo once had. It does make sense that the Qing and Gorean dynasties were well connected. China on the other hand was more isolated from the Manchurian Kingdoms and were always fighting the Manchus or the Mongols.
QUOTE (Dokiroimaka @ Nov 6 2009, 02:25 AM)
True.
You must understand Jurchens came much later than Koreans.
Back in Gojoseon period, there was no Jurchens, Khitans and Manchus.
Manchus are formed during 16th century, Mongols are formed 12th century by Genghis Khan, Khitans started appearing in 6th century.
Jurchens were another mixed clans from Malgal/Mohe/Tungus etc.. in 12th century, previously they were just insignificant nomadic tribes, who doesn't have settled homes.
There was Proto-Tungus and Korean tribes before them.
Btw, approx 70% of Koreans are considered to be Tungus origin.
Thus what is defined as Tungus back in 2000~3000 years ago is really not that important because Tungus tribes are now almost extinct however, Koreans with 70% of Tungus origins still roam around same traditional locations.
There are more Koreans than survived Jurchens, Manchus, Mongols and Southern Siberian tribal people, even you combined them all, they still don't come closer to current Korean population. Koreans are only NE Asian people that still carries and practice ancient cultures of Liaoning and Southern Manchuria, outside of Yanbian & Eastern Siberia.
Korea's folk tales, beliefs, Shamans, traditional musics, folk dances, game etc.. are still practice today by modern Koreans.
Both Chinese and Japanese ultra-nationalists have been awfully negative towards to Koreans because their past Dynasties could not completely swallow up Korea and its people.
They use their imperialistic nationalism & very biased standard to down grade Koreans, just visit Youtube and all other forums & chats.
They paint Koreans as liars and turning Christian for some reason when most of lies are actually fabricated by them.
None of their so called 'made up culture & history' have no proofs what so ever, their only evidences are their version of collection of few carefully constructed stories.
This OP might be Altai nationalist and trying to claim his/her theory to be truth but at least he quoted several passages from ancient Chinese texts.
So are you saying all these Chinese records are Not correct?
Up until late 1990s, Chinese people and its government painted Southern Manchuria and Yanbian & Eastern Siberia as Korean cultural sphere.
But this turned into some kind of 'weapon' against to Koreans.
I know there are many Korean nationalistic scholars and historians have claim Dongyi theory to be origin of Koreans to show Korean people weren't just savage barbarians but belonged to very advanced & civilized culture. If you look at all of their claims, they don't actually claims Summer, Shang, Liaoning etc.. as Korean entity, but claims as origins of ancient Korean. Also, because Chinese and Japanese also have their own theory about us:
Chinese theory is Koreans came from ancient Chinese Dynasty "Yan", where rebel ruler formed Gojoseon.
Japanese theory is Koreans came from Japanese colony "Mimana" aka Karak or Gaya which was founded by first Empress of Yamato.
All this proven to be illogical because there are older cultures have been discovered from Korean peninsula as well as older than Yan & Yamato, thus Korean POV, Liaoning, Southern Manchuria, SE Siberia and Kyushu island were under Korean cultural sphere. And archeological artifacts does reflects this.
To me, it really doesn't matter if Korean origin have multiple origins or not.
Because Koreans are one of rare people that still continue their culture and still lives in traditional locations where others failed.
You must understand Jurchens came much later than Koreans.
Back in Gojoseon period, there was no Jurchens, Khitans and Manchus.
Manchus are formed during 16th century, Mongols are formed 12th century by Genghis Khan, Khitans started appearing in 6th century.
Jurchens were another mixed clans from Malgal/Mohe/Tungus etc.. in 12th century, previously they were just insignificant nomadic tribes, who doesn't have settled homes.
There was Proto-Tungus and Korean tribes before them.
Btw, approx 70% of Koreans are considered to be Tungus origin.
Thus what is defined as Tungus back in 2000~3000 years ago is really not that important because Tungus tribes are now almost extinct however, Koreans with 70% of Tungus origins still roam around same traditional locations.
There are more Koreans than survived Jurchens, Manchus, Mongols and Southern Siberian tribal people, even you combined them all, they still don't come closer to current Korean population. Koreans are only NE Asian people that still carries and practice ancient cultures of Liaoning and Southern Manchuria, outside of Yanbian & Eastern Siberia.
Korea's folk tales, beliefs, Shamans, traditional musics, folk dances, game etc.. are still practice today by modern Koreans.
Both Chinese and Japanese ultra-nationalists have been awfully negative towards to Koreans because their past Dynasties could not completely swallow up Korea and its people.
They use their imperialistic nationalism & very biased standard to down grade Koreans, just visit Youtube and all other forums & chats.
They paint Koreans as liars and turning Christian for some reason when most of lies are actually fabricated by them.
None of their so called 'made up culture & history' have no proofs what so ever, their only evidences are their version of collection of few carefully constructed stories.
This OP might be Altai nationalist and trying to claim his/her theory to be truth but at least he quoted several passages from ancient Chinese texts.
So are you saying all these Chinese records are Not correct?
Up until late 1990s, Chinese people and its government painted Southern Manchuria and Yanbian & Eastern Siberia as Korean cultural sphere.
But this turned into some kind of 'weapon' against to Koreans.
I know there are many Korean nationalistic scholars and historians have claim Dongyi theory to be origin of Koreans to show Korean people weren't just savage barbarians but belonged to very advanced & civilized culture. If you look at all of their claims, they don't actually claims Summer, Shang, Liaoning etc.. as Korean entity, but claims as origins of ancient Korean. Also, because Chinese and Japanese also have their own theory about us:
Chinese theory is Koreans came from ancient Chinese Dynasty "Yan", where rebel ruler formed Gojoseon.
Japanese theory is Koreans came from Japanese colony "Mimana" aka Karak or Gaya which was founded by first Empress of Yamato.
All this proven to be illogical because there are older cultures have been discovered from Korean peninsula as well as older than Yan & Yamato, thus Korean POV, Liaoning, Southern Manchuria, SE Siberia and Kyushu island were under Korean cultural sphere. And archeological artifacts does reflects this.
To me, it really doesn't matter if Korean origin have multiple origins or not.
Because Koreans are one of rare people that still continue their culture and still lives in traditional locations where others failed.
There's certainly nothing wrong with coming from multiple origins. In fact, it's more historically accurate than claiming pure descent from a single group thousands of years ago. I understand the latter view was popular throughout East Asia (ie Chinese were from Huaxia, Korean were from Yemaek, Japanese were from Yamato) until people began reexamining their histories with a critical eye.
In terms of the OP's quotes, some of those passages do exist; however, they can also be interpreted in ways other than the OP has interpreted them. As far as I know, most Western scholars regard them as being indicative of contact and interaction between the proto-Jurchen and proto-Korean tribes under early states around the peninsula. The Jin/Silla connection seems straightforward, and is a plausible theory. The Qing connection is more tenuous, since it was commissioned work. That is to say, the Manchus were writing their history as they went along, and as a powerful royal house, it wouldn't do for them to have no eminent history. Thus, there is the very real possibility that they latched onto whatever royal lineage was available to people of Jurchen descent (notably, they did not claim descent from Goguryeo, suggesting that the Jurchens did not see Goguryeo as "their" country), and this is what Western scholars typically suspect, since as far as the records show, the Jin royalty was killed off by the Mongols.
As for the more ridiculous-sounding claims like half the Manchu tribes were Korean and Aisin Gioro means "Love Silla," I don't know where that comes from, but it might simply be a distortion of history. I also doubt the claim about Aisin Gioro being a vassal tribe of Joseon, though the Jurchens in general were intimately tied to the Ming power structure in Manchuria, which Joseon Korea, being a stalwart ally of the Ming, was also involved in. The various Jurchen tribes in the area generally took Ming titles and fought on and off for the Ming, but did not submit fully to their neighbors' authority; this prompted, at times, "pacification" campaigns on the part of the Ming, which Joseon Korea also sometimes participated in. These campaigns would ultimately instill a degree of hatred on the part of the Jurchens, which Nurhaci used to rally the tribes. In short, given that the Chinese have always kept careful records, there is A LOT of things that the OP is leaving out in his cherry picking of history; this can make the claims seem stronger than they are for people unfamiliar with the area.
Lastly, and just as a precaution against using limited sources, I'd note the Y-Chromosome DNA (so, already, you know what he's angling for) study he uses, which is from Katoh 2005.
Note which one he uses and which one he does not. Also note that the quoted paper's goal was to examine the paternal lineage of Mongolian groups, not Manchus, Chinese, or Koreans, and so had limited sampling compared to other papers on the subject. This is classic source selection bias. (Brief digression: Katoh's paper adopts a framework wherein northern Han Chinese are virtually identical to Japanese in the first methodology, and between Mongols and Manchus in the second methodology; interpret that as you will).
QUOTE (Dokiroimaka @ Nov 7 2009, 12:28 AM)
^ Lol
Your Song texts says Jin founder came from Shilla/Koryo, so your limited knowledge of history failed from start.
Good luck with Hong Kong, wasn't that was your home?
It's even funnier when Hong Kong Chinese are desperately try to claim the rest of East asian history as theirs.
Hong Kong Chinese are suddenly proud of rise of China.
Must be very insecure.
Your Song texts says Jin founder came from Shilla/Koryo, so your limited knowledge of history failed from start.
Good luck with Hong Kong, wasn't that was your home?
It's even funnier when Hong Kong Chinese are desperately try to claim the rest of East asian history as theirs.
Hong Kong Chinese are suddenly proud of rise of China.
Must be very insecure.
Please enlighten us with relevant references to book and text sections as they are, not Korean interpretations that seem to be everywhere these days.
Honkies have every right to claim Chinese history as their own by virtue of relevant descent and culture. Of course peninsula people would not understand this given their insular impression of racial purity. As a non-Hong Kong/Cantonese Chinese i more than welcome my Hong Kong compatriots back into the fold.
Hmm, Interesting. I just found this exact same thread in several other forums:
http://www.historum.com/showthread.php?p=136970
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8616152
Is this a new form of viral advertisement? Who's paying for it? Was this organized by some pan-Altaic group?
http://www.historum.com/showthread.php?p=136970
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8616152
Is this a new form of viral advertisement? Who's paying for it? Was this organized by some pan-Altaic group?
Flaming
banned
QUOTE (BurdenOfAges @ Nov 6 2009, 03:44 PM)
Hmm, Interesting. I just found this exact same thread in several other forums:
http://www.historum.com/showthread.php?p=136970
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8616152
Is this a new form of viral advertisement? Who's paying for it? Was this organized by some pan-Altaic group?
http://www.historum.com/showthread.php?p=136970
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8616152
Is this a new form of viral advertisement? Who's paying for it? Was this organized by some pan-Altaic group?
Trolls usually post their stuff everywhere, not just one forum.
Even though this topic was created in K-chat serious talk which is rarely visited by anyone(Koreans included). Somehow, for some odd reason, Chinese posters are flocking to this topic like mosquitoes to a pool of blood. I didnt discover this topic until just now and I spend 99% of my AF time on K-chat. That being said, you guys are so gullible. Read below.
Im 100% sure you are not Korean and just another Chinese troll pretending to be Korean.
Like this stupid Chinese kid who pretends to be Korean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnasrkUFzX8
The video never claimed that Korea conquered China. Obviously the Chinese troll was attempting to troll bait you guys into this topic. You tool bags took his troll bait and fell right into his trap. The video makes the claim that the founders and descendants of the Jurchen Jin dynasty was Korean or had Korean ancestry. And they make a very very convincing argument. I did some more research and its even supported by western and *gasp* Chinese scholars. For instance-
Wanyan Hanpu the leader and founder of the Wanyan clan(which became the Jin dynasty) was from Korea and of Korean stock. According to Chinese records (the History of the Jin)(Jinshi 金史) , Wanyan Hanpu came from the kingdom of Goryeo(Korea) and lived their for 60 years. He left Koryeo with his followers(Koreans) and founded the Wanyan clan which would later become Jin. Just to give you an idea of what kind of the Jin were. The Jin dynasty massacred Chinese people, defeated Song, captured the Chinese emperor and his son and humiliated the China. Doesnt really sound like the kind of guy China should be proud of.
Another Chinese source written during the Qing dynasty states that Shilla and Jin royalty were related in blood. While completely alien to any Chinese dynasty. This was from a Qing dynasty source. Nurhaci the mighty leader of Manchuria even spared Korea during the Ming-Chosun-Manchu war despite Chosun siding with the Ming. Nurhaci remarked that they were "brothers" or something akin to it. I dont remember the exact quote, but Nurhaci and the Manchus(Nurhaci later died) treated Koreans fairly after the war.
The Chinese however were not given the same respect shown towards Korea. The Chinese were brutally massacred during and after the war. They were conquered, enslaved, humiliated and became a part of Manchuria. Korea on the other hand was given independence(too bad China) so long as they payed tribute(which was actually a 2 way deal). Chinese men were then forced to shave their heads bald and wear a pony tail. A sign of absolute submission and humilation. Koreans on the other hand were allowed to wear their hair however they wanted.
新羅王金姓則金之逺派. From Research on the Origin of the Manchus (Manzhou yuanliu kao 滿洲源流考) also states that Hanpu had 2 other brothers. One stayed in Goryeo with the rest of Hanpus family. The other stayed in Balhae(another Korean kingdom).
As you can see, its nots "ridiculous" to say that the Jurchen Jin dynasty had Korean elements in them. Its founder was Korean for christs sake. And this is supported by Chinese sources. LOL
The fact that the Jin called themselves Kim(Korean pronounciation of Jin) is also another convincing argument which you seem to ignore. As I mentioned earlier, Qing records indicate that Shillas royalty and Jins royalty were related in blood. This is important because during Korea's Shilla dynasty, the Kim clan of Kyungju were the absolute masters of the peninsula. They were the top clan and held much of the power. It is very very very likely that Hanpu was of the Kyungju Kim clan. Not only did he come from Korea, but he was related to Shillas royal family and his clan would become known as Jin or in Korean- KIM(gold) dynasty. Why else did they name the dynasty Jin?
Need even more danming evidence. In 1115 Wanyan Aguda(first emperor of Jin) and descendent of Hanpu declared that Jin and Goryeo were brothers. This is supported in the historical text(history of Koryeo). Both Aguda and his older brother were recorded as calling Koryeo(Korea)- The mother country. Of course you didnt bother to see the video so you fail to grasp this historical fact. Jins first emperor regarded Koreans as family and Korea as the homeland. What did he think of the Chinese? He hated them. He considered them inferior sub humans. He waged war on then, murdered them, sacked their capitol- Kaifeng and caputred the Emperor himself. He turned China into his b!tch. Way to go.
The Chinese historian in the video also stated that Koryeo and Jin shared the same common language. The people of Balhae were also regarded as brothers to both Jin and Goryeo.
The evidence stacks up against you guys, its quite obvious that the video wasnt lieing after all. If you disagree, I suggest you write a convincing argument WITH EVIDENCE as to why the video is wrong in its claims. If not, then I suggest you fu-k off back to C-chat like you did last time. Then again, you're Mid-Night-Sun, the same kid who got his @$$ handed again and again by Korean posters. Most recently in the MMA rules topic LOL.
Have a great day.
LOL. And his is comming from a Japanese person of all people? The freakin masters of revisionist history. Why don't you get off the drugs and open a legitimate textbook?
QUOTE (altaicmania @ Nov 3 2009, 02:48 PM)
The history of origin of Jin and Qing dynasty was finally broadcasted in KBS.
The originator of Jin(金, Kim) dyansty was a Korean who name was Kim Ham-bo.
Royal family of Silla (Korean dynasty) moved to northern Korean penninsular and founded Jin dynasty with Jurchens (AD 1068). They occupied north China and moved capital to Beijing. This country was destroyed by Mongol's Chingis Khan in 1234.
But, their descendents founded Later Jin(金, Kim) dynasty again in 1616 (changed to Qing(淸) later) and conquered China in 1644. They governed and colonized China until Chinese got independence in 1912.
Watch Korean History Special by KBS:
Following is the documentary broadcased in KBS.
Short version with English subtitle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Hm-SRD9CQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alMUUZ15Vuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPf3haNr4wg
Full version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pjxaDIxcyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_IP2kkFEXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyE_enR5UMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2YEaYj4lE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz2YqsolBm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfTDO8tjEDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nF_lWtM0QY
reference:
Hanpu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
함보 - Korean wikipedia
역사스페셜 - [특별기획] 만주대탐사 2부작 - 2부 금나라를 세운 아골타, 신라의 후예였다！ (in Korean)
http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Korean+c...tion+to+Manchus
watch the episode in KBS (in Korean)
The Full version of documentary by KBS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvLF0KQ0yhA
The originator of Jin(金, Kim) dyansty was a Korean who name was Kim Ham-bo.
Royal family of Silla (Korean dynasty) moved to northern Korean penninsular and founded Jin dynasty with Jurchens (AD 1068). They occupied north China and moved capital to Beijing. This country was destroyed by Mongol's Chingis Khan in 1234.
But, their descendents founded Later Jin(金, Kim) dynasty again in 1616 (changed to Qing(淸) later) and conquered China in 1644. They governed and colonized China until Chinese got independence in 1912.
Watch Korean History Special by KBS:
Following is the documentary broadcased in KBS.
Short version with English subtitle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Hm-SRD9CQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alMUUZ15Vuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPf3haNr4wg
Full version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pjxaDIxcyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_IP2kkFEXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyE_enR5UMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2YEaYj4lE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz2YqsolBm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfTDO8tjEDQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nF_lWtM0QY
reference:
Hanpu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
함보 - Korean wikipedia
역사스페셜 - [특별기획] 만주대탐사 2부작 - 2부 금나라를 세운 아골타, 신라의 후예였다！ (in Korean)
http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Korean+c...tion+to+Manchus
watch the episode in KBS (in Korean)
The Full version of documentary by KBS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvLF0KQ0yhA
Im 100% sure you are not Korean and just another Chinese troll pretending to be Korean.
Like this stupid Chinese kid who pretends to be Korean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnasrkUFzX8
QUOTE (Mid-Night_Sun @ Nov 6 2009, 06:51 AM)
wahahaha these korean claims are so weak.
Liao/Khitan - Northern Chancellery (steppes) used Khitan language. Southern Chancellery (included BALHAE people) used Chinese as the official language. The Yaolian Imperial Clan used Chinese surnames. In fact, Tang bestowed "Li" to the first Yaolian Khan.
oh yes, Chinese should claim Liao since apparently Korean can with such a weak link.
Jin/Jurchen - Jurchens allied with Nothern Song to attack Liao. they even had a deal where 16 Yanyun states went back to Song for helping from the south. As for Koreans, Yejong of Goryeo refused to have diplomacy with Jin. (makes this even more epic for Koreans to claim LOL).
Emperor Hailingwang (海陵王) of Jin actually went on a quest to be Chinese LOLOLOL. this funny guy actually moved his capital to Beijing from the historic Jurchen capital Huining. 1157 he ordered the palaces in Huining to be destroyed!
how come none of these guys go on a quest to become Goryeo for example? oh yes, Chinese should claim Jin as well, since Koreans weak claim is ok.
and in case anyone wonders, i dont claim it. i acknowledge Song then Southern Song as "China". if Jin succeeded in their invasion to unify China that would change, but it didnt. it was Yuan who did.
Liao/Khitan - Northern Chancellery (steppes) used Khitan language. Southern Chancellery (included BALHAE people) used Chinese as the official language. The Yaolian Imperial Clan used Chinese surnames. In fact, Tang bestowed "Li" to the first Yaolian Khan.
oh yes, Chinese should claim Liao since apparently Korean can with such a weak link.
Jin/Jurchen - Jurchens allied with Nothern Song to attack Liao. they even had a deal where 16 Yanyun states went back to Song for helping from the south. As for Koreans, Yejong of Goryeo refused to have diplomacy with Jin. (makes this even more epic for Koreans to claim LOL).
Emperor Hailingwang (海陵王) of Jin actually went on a quest to be Chinese LOLOLOL. this funny guy actually moved his capital to Beijing from the historic Jurchen capital Huining. 1157 he ordered the palaces in Huining to be destroyed!
how come none of these guys go on a quest to become Goryeo for example? oh yes, Chinese should claim Jin as well, since Koreans weak claim is ok.
and in case anyone wonders, i dont claim it. i acknowledge Song then Southern Song as "China". if Jin succeeded in their invasion to unify China that would change, but it didnt. it was Yuan who did.
The video never claimed that Korea conquered China. Obviously the Chinese troll was attempting to troll bait you guys into this topic. You tool bags took his troll bait and fell right into his trap. The video makes the claim that the founders and descendants of the Jurchen Jin dynasty was Korean or had Korean ancestry. And they make a very very convincing argument. I did some more research and its even supported by western and *gasp* Chinese scholars. For instance-
Wanyan Hanpu the leader and founder of the Wanyan clan(which became the Jin dynasty) was from Korea and of Korean stock. According to Chinese records (the History of the Jin)(Jinshi 金史) , Wanyan Hanpu came from the kingdom of Goryeo(Korea) and lived their for 60 years. He left Koryeo with his followers(Koreans) and founded the Wanyan clan which would later become Jin. Just to give you an idea of what kind of the Jin were. The Jin dynasty massacred Chinese people, defeated Song, captured the Chinese emperor and his son and humiliated the China. Doesnt really sound like the kind of guy China should be proud of.
Another Chinese source written during the Qing dynasty states that Shilla and Jin royalty were related in blood. While completely alien to any Chinese dynasty. This was from a Qing dynasty source. Nurhaci the mighty leader of Manchuria even spared Korea during the Ming-Chosun-Manchu war despite Chosun siding with the Ming. Nurhaci remarked that they were "brothers" or something akin to it. I dont remember the exact quote, but Nurhaci and the Manchus(Nurhaci later died) treated Koreans fairly after the war.
The Chinese however were not given the same respect shown towards Korea. The Chinese were brutally massacred during and after the war. They were conquered, enslaved, humiliated and became a part of Manchuria. Korea on the other hand was given independence(too bad China) so long as they payed tribute(which was actually a 2 way deal). Chinese men were then forced to shave their heads bald and wear a pony tail. A sign of absolute submission and humilation. Koreans on the other hand were allowed to wear their hair however they wanted.
新羅王金姓則金之逺派. From Research on the Origin of the Manchus (Manzhou yuanliu kao 滿洲源流考) also states that Hanpu had 2 other brothers. One stayed in Goryeo with the rest of Hanpus family. The other stayed in Balhae(another Korean kingdom).
As you can see, its nots "ridiculous" to say that the Jurchen Jin dynasty had Korean elements in them. Its founder was Korean for christs sake. And this is supported by Chinese sources. LOL
The fact that the Jin called themselves Kim(Korean pronounciation of Jin) is also another convincing argument which you seem to ignore. As I mentioned earlier, Qing records indicate that Shillas royalty and Jins royalty were related in blood. This is important because during Korea's Shilla dynasty, the Kim clan of Kyungju were the absolute masters of the peninsula. They were the top clan and held much of the power. It is very very very likely that Hanpu was of the Kyungju Kim clan. Not only did he come from Korea, but he was related to Shillas royal family and his clan would become known as Jin or in Korean- KIM(gold) dynasty. Why else did they name the dynasty Jin?
Need even more danming evidence. In 1115 Wanyan Aguda(first emperor of Jin) and descendent of Hanpu declared that Jin and Goryeo were brothers. This is supported in the historical text(history of Koryeo). Both Aguda and his older brother were recorded as calling Koryeo(Korea)- The mother country. Of course you didnt bother to see the video so you fail to grasp this historical fact. Jins first emperor regarded Koreans as family and Korea as the homeland. What did he think of the Chinese? He hated them. He considered them inferior sub humans. He waged war on then, murdered them, sacked their capitol- Kaifeng and caputred the Emperor himself. He turned China into his b!tch. Way to go.
The Chinese historian in the video also stated that Koryeo and Jin shared the same common language. The people of Balhae were also regarded as brothers to both Jin and Goryeo.
The evidence stacks up against you guys, its quite obvious that the video wasnt lieing after all. If you disagree, I suggest you write a convincing argument WITH EVIDENCE as to why the video is wrong in its claims. If not, then I suggest you fu-k off back to C-chat like you did last time. Then again, you're Mid-Night-Sun, the same kid who got his @$$ handed again and again by Korean posters. Most recently in the MMA rules topic LOL.
Have a great day.
QUOTE (ryuji_yamamoto @ Nov 6 2009, 03:53 PM)
Korea the king of revisionist history.
LOL. And his is comming from a Japanese person of all people? The freakin masters of revisionist history. Why don't you get off the drugs and open a legitimate textbook?
The video is quite long and I havent seen parts 6 and 7 yet, so ill discuss them later.
Question 1.
How did they mark borders back then? And how accurate and withstanding did those borders last on average?
Question 2.
How did NOMADIC people keep track of their borders?
How did they mark borders back then? And how accurate and withstanding did those borders last on average?
Question 2.
How did NOMADIC people keep track of their borders?
banned
QUOTE (freesky @ Nov 6 2009, 08:08 PM)
banned
There is overwhelming evidence that Chosun was Korean.
There is overwhelming evidence that Jin Jurchen has Korean roots.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Chosun was founded by a Chinese person.
Nice try at being logical, unfortunately you failed big time.
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QUOTE
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QUOTE (LXL @ Nov 6 2009, 08:48 PM)
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QUOTE (LXL @ Nov 6 2009, 08:59 PM)
banned
QUOTE (freesky @ Nov 6 2009, 09:05 PM)
banned
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what the fu-k is wrong with these people who make account after account? get a fu-king life.
banned
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QUOTE (EvilAsianDude @ Nov 6 2009, 08:55 PM)
The video never claimed that Korea conquered China. Obviously the Chinese troll was attempting to troll bait you guys into this topic. You tool bags took his troll bait and fell right into his trap. The video makes the claim that the founders and descendants of the Jurchen Jin dynasty was Korean or had Korean ancestry. And they make a very very convincing argument. I did some more research and its even supported by western and *gasp* Chinese scholars. For instance-
of course korea never conquered china.
what a silly idea.QUOTE (EvilAsianDude @ Nov 6 2009, 08:55 PM)
Wanyan Hanpu the leader and founder of the Wanyan clan(which became the Jin dynasty) was from Korea and of Korean stock. According to Chinese records (the History of the Jin)(Jinshi 金史) , Wanyan Hanpu came from the kingdom of Goryeo(Korea) and lived their for 60 years. He left Koryeo with his followers(Koreans) and founded the Wanyan clan which would later become Jin. Just to give you an idea of what kind of the Jin were. The Jin dynasty massacred Chinese people, defeated Song, captured the Chinese emperor and his son and humiliated the China. Doesnt really sound like the kind of guy China should be proud of.
who said China was proud of Jin?
nothing you said contradicts what i posted. what i posted is a far stronger link as i listed things actions they did (for ex. the moving of the capital to beijing, an act that was meant to try and legitimize the Jin emperors rule over "all under heaven"). besides not mentioning all the chinese elements they added into their ruling system. humiliated what? Jin was destroyed by an allied Mongol-Southern Song. as i mentioned before, i acknowledge Southern Song as "China".
QUOTE (EvilAsianDude @ Nov 6 2009, 08:55 PM)
Another Chinese source written during the Qing dynasty states that Shilla and Jin royalty were related in blood. While completely alien to any Chinese dynasty. This was from a Qing dynasty source. Nurhaci the mighty leader of Manchuria even spared Korea during the Ming-Chosun-Manchu war despite Chosun siding with the Ming. Nurhaci remarked that they were "brothers" or something akin to it. I dont remember the exact quote, but Nurhaci and the Manchus(Nurhaci later died) treated Koreans fairly after the war.
The Chinese however were not given the same respect shown towards Korea. The Chinese were brutally massacred during and after the war. They were conquered, enslaved, humiliated and became a part of Manchuria. Korea on the other hand was given independence(too bad China) so long as they payed tribute(which was actually a 2 way deal). Chinese men were then forced to shave their heads bald and wear a pony tail. A sign of absolute submission and humilation. Koreans on the other hand were allowed to wear their hair however they wanted.
新羅王金姓則金之逺派. From Research on the Origin of the Manchus (Manzhou yuanliu kao 滿洲源流考) also states that Hanpu had 2 other brothers. One stayed in Goryeo with the rest of Hanpus family. The other stayed in Balhae(another Korean kingdom).
As you can see, its nots "ridiculous" to say that the Jurchen Jin dynasty had Korean elements in them. Its founder was Korean for christs sake. And this is supported by Chinese sources. LOL
The fact that the Jin called themselves Kim(Korean pronounciation of Jin) is also another convincing argument which you seem to ignore. As I mentioned earlier, Qing records indicate that Shillas royalty and Jins royalty were related in blood. This is important because during Korea's Shilla dynasty, the Kim clan of Kyungju were the absolute masters of the peninsula. They were the top clan and held much of the power. It is very very very likely that Hanpu was of the Kyungju Kim clan. Not only did he come from Korea, but he was related to Shillas royal family and his clan would become known as Jin or in Korean- KIM(gold) dynasty. Why else did they name the dynasty Jin?
The Chinese however were not given the same respect shown towards Korea. The Chinese were brutally massacred during and after the war. They were conquered, enslaved, humiliated and became a part of Manchuria. Korea on the other hand was given independence(too bad China) so long as they payed tribute(which was actually a 2 way deal). Chinese men were then forced to shave their heads bald and wear a pony tail. A sign of absolute submission and humilation. Koreans on the other hand were allowed to wear their hair however they wanted.
新羅王金姓則金之逺派. From Research on the Origin of the Manchus (Manzhou yuanliu kao 滿洲源流考) also states that Hanpu had 2 other brothers. One stayed in Goryeo with the rest of Hanpus family. The other stayed in Balhae(another Korean kingdom).
As you can see, its nots "ridiculous" to say that the Jurchen Jin dynasty had Korean elements in them. Its founder was Korean for christs sake. And this is supported by Chinese sources. LOL
The fact that the Jin called themselves Kim(Korean pronounciation of Jin) is also another convincing argument which you seem to ignore. As I mentioned earlier, Qing records indicate that Shillas royalty and Jins royalty were related in blood. This is important because during Korea's Shilla dynasty, the Kim clan of Kyungju were the absolute masters of the peninsula. They were the top clan and held much of the power. It is very very very likely that Hanpu was of the Kyungju Kim clan. Not only did he come from Korea, but he was related to Shillas royal family and his clan would become known as Jin or in Korean- KIM(gold) dynasty. Why else did they name the dynasty Jin?
i want everyone to see how desperate and weak these korean claims are.
thx for giving everyone this opportunity.respect? the Manchus invaded Korea TWICE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Manchu_invasion_of_Korea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Manchu_invasion_of_Korea
the second being QING. Huang Taiji the first Qing Emperor led Manchu, Mongol, and Chinese Banners and Mongol army of 120,000 to Korea. theres were the terms of SURRENDER
King Injo yielded up three pro-war officers to Qing, as well as agreeing to the terms of peace:
1. Korea submit to the Qing Dynasty.
2. Korea breaks away with the suzerain Ming.
3. Korea offers the first and second sons of King Injo, and sons or brothers of ministers as hostages.
4. Korea pays tribute to Qing as she has done to Ming.
5. Korea will serve in the war against Ming.
6. Korea offers army and ships to attack an island.
7. Qing does not allow Korea to build castles without restraint.
allegedly (i do acknowlege this) King Injo was forced to kowtow to Huang Taiji many times. to use your terms, to HUMILIATE him.
FYI, The Jurchen named their Dynasty the Jin ("Golden") after the Anchuhu River (anchuhu is the Jurchen equivalent of Manchu aisin "gold, golden") in their homeland. how funny you think it has anything to do with "Kim".
QUOTE (EvilAsianDude @ Nov 6 2009, 08:55 PM)
Need even more danming evidence. In 1115 Wanyan Aguda(first emperor of Jin) and descendent of Hanpu declared that Jin and Goryeo were brothers. This is supported in the historical text(history of Koryeo). Both Aguda and his older brother were recorded as calling Koryeo(Korea)- The mother country. Of course you didnt bother to see the video so you fail to grasp this historical fact. Jins first emperor regarded Koreans as family and Korea as the homeland. What did he think of the Chinese? He hated them. He considered them inferior sub humans. He waged war on then, murdered them, sacked their capitol- Kaifeng and caputred the Emperor himself. He turned China into his b!tch. Way to go.
The Chinese historian in the video also stated that Koryeo and Jin shared the same common language. The people of Balhae were also regarded as brothers to both Jin and Goryeo.
The Chinese historian in the video also stated that Koryeo and Jin shared the same common language. The people of Balhae were also regarded as brothers to both Jin and Goryeo.
first of all, as another repeat, Jin was defeated by an allied Mongol-Southern Song.
second of all, they could not defeat Song even before Mongol alliance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caishi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tangdao
third, Jin Dynasty was very sinicized. here is them hating Chinese.
Prince Hailing - in 1153, moved the Jin capital to the site of the old Liao southern capital, which is now Beijing, and four years later he had the old capital razed, including the nobles' residences. why? he was a prince, nobody accepted him as emperor so he wanted to legitimize his rule. it is ALSO why he attacked the Southern Song. because apparently thinks the way I do, Southern Song was "China".
Emperor Shizong - Thanks to his mother and her relatives, Wulu received a good Chinese education, and had as good knowledge of Chinese classics as any Chinese emperor.[1]
"Modern scholars of the Jin Empire feel that Shiong's efforts to maintain and revive Jurchen language and culture were not particularly efficacious. The language lacked native literature, and his translations of Chinese works into Jurchen were helping to bring Chinese ideas and values into Jurchens' minds. In fact, the emperor himself once said that the Jurchen language was "inferior to Chinese", and could not even match Khitan. Outisde of the old Jurchen lands in far Manchuria, people did not see the utility of speaking the "dying" and "inferior" language, and Shizong himself was wondering if the posterity would criticize him for his attempts to force people use it"
(Jing-shen Tao, "The Jurchen in Twelfth-Century China". University of Washington Press, 1976, ISBN 0-295-95514-7. Chapter 6. "The Jurchen Movement for Revival", Pages 69-83.)
Emperor Zhangzong - he permitted Jurchen to follow Chinese funeral practices, and Tang and Song rituals are known to have been performed at his court in 1194. Resuming one of the projects of King Hailing, he established Confucian temples in all prefectures and counties of his empire.[1]
(The Jurchen in Twelfth-Century China. University of Washington Press, 1976)
course Jin dynasty emperors would favor Jurchen customs and traditions. but to attempt and trick people that they hated Chinese is funny. (repeat again, i still consider Southern Song "China", so ironically everything Jin did made them more Chinese is still pointless)
at the end of the day, as you can see. Korean claims are infinitely weaker than Chinese ones, focused entirely on an old silla link and cherry picked records. meanwhile, im giving you what the emperors THEMSELVES actually DID. btw i dont even claim Jin.
banned
QUOTE (altaicmania @ Nov 6 2009, 11:08 PM)
banned
the better question is who actually gives a $hit about the jin dynasty?
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