India is insisting again and again that the stance of India and China is unified and China has promised to stand by India on this issue. All I can do is laugh. In sadness at our own naivety. If anyone in the Indian administration believes that, they are in for a rude surprise.

China has no regard for such mundane things as morals or respect for word etc. It believes in only one thing. Its own self-interest. It says what ever appeases its partner and then does as it wants.

You watch. China will negotiate a side-deal with the US on this and leave India in the lurch. India will be left standing stupidly as the only big nation against the pact thus making everyone look reasonable and India as the reason for the climate pact's problems.

I was a student in 1992 avidly following the NPT debate. I remember India refusing to sign the NPT while the negotiations were going on and China refusing too and claiming that it was with India and that their stand was unified. India kept asking the US to negotiate with it. The US kept saying that it would come to India after talking to the UNSC Permanent members. I watched as the US negotiated with France for them to complete their tests and then watched as the US negotiated with China and accepted that it would not be penalized for proliferation to Pakistan. Then once the US had completed the negotiations, it announced that it could not meet every country on this issue and refused to negotiate with India. When India desperately reached out to its friend, China, the Chinese brazenly lectured India on the importance of non-proliferation (see the irony) and refused to support India. And now India is not a nuclear member of the NPT despite testing in 1974 (18 years before the NPT was signed) and despite having a stellar non-proliferation record, one which even NPT darling China can't claim having proliferated to Pakistan, Iran and North Korea.

So my friends, get ready for this again.

Today China agreed on hard target cuts on the same day as the US. Obviously China drove a hard bargain when Obama went to Beijing and got some concessions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/27/science/.../27climate.html

I rest my case.

NPT was created on July 1, 1968. Any country that build nukes after 1968 violates the NPT.

NPT was signed in 1992. You can create anything anytime. It took 24 years for it to be signed. The world had completely changed. Similarly the Free Trade Pact has been created in 1997 when China was a nobody on world exports. Can we use the same logic for that? It won't work in 2010.

Is there anything which says China and India will stick together in climate change position? Anything concrete? Other than diplomatic niceties.

No?

So whats the problem ?

They did stay together, for a time, but I don't think either India or China have said that they would work in tandem.

That is your own personal interpretation of "India getting betrayed again"

Furthermore, you apply your own personal interpretation again about what was said in the press announcement between Obama & Hu and saw it as a kind of a significant move or a breakthrough, and then concluded yourself "India is foolish and getting betrayed again"

By the way, are you updated with the latest Indian policy position? If India announce something or do something, will you then also say "India is foolish and getting betrayed again"

A lot of comments from you. Do YOU have anything to back up what you are saying? No. Didn't think so.

I am going on the basis of the join declaration made by India and China as recently as 1 month back. Please check google, yahoo or any search engine.

What are joint declarations? Are they anything more than diplomatic niceties? Anything signed?

That's only the first part of my question, my questioning of your estimation of a some sort of a "pact", which, even if it did exist, most likely is a soft pact and is based on mutual understanding and cooperation voluntarily.

My second question is with regard to your intimation that there is a "break" of this "pact" just by the announcement of some cut back or general declarations / announcement of some measures. This is way too exaggerated. Furthermore, I asked you about India's latest position because I believe all major nations changed, and will change, their policy position regarding climate change. This climate change is going to be a major issue and is going to get negotiated internationally for many years to come.

Fair points. But we can only go on the basis of media declarations unless we are privvy to internal discussions. I know that the Chinese FM made a statement that China would support India in its stance on Climate. And then the Indian media went on about it as if China was planning to support India. I am just trying to point out that China is a fairweather friend and it always has been as in the NPT discussions of 1992.

I understand that India is about to make a similar concession along the CHinese lines. And also that these discussions will go on for a while.

Fairweather friends? To be honest with you, I am unable to comprehend Chinese government's high patience and kindness in the face of repeated Indian's provocations.

India hosted China's number 1 secessionist, I wonder how India's government will feel if China give protection and shelter to India's number 1 terrorist or separatist leader. This goes to the heart of Chinese nation, India has been stabbing China's heart with a sharp knife from decades ago, and still put on a sweet face in front but backstab later.

Not only that but India is unyielding to compromise from occupation in South Tibet. The lands occupied and now bastardly called "Arunachal Pradesh" is an illegally grabbed land from Imperial Britain.

As a nation colonized by Britain for centuries, you would think India would have some sympathy with China, both are victims of European aggression and British imperialism.
But what did India do? It says "no, we'll keep it. It doesnt matter that Britain drew this line unilaterally, why should I be a good neighbor and return it to you now that both of us got our independence"

This is a second issue which stabs Chinese nation at its heart.

Despite this, China has tried to be patient and negotiate with the Indians. It wants to seek peace and development after years of chaos.

Apparently Indians like you think China is a "fairweather friend" but in English expression there is a proverb "with a friend like this, who needs enemies", perhaps you should direct some criticism and reflection to India itself, be fair and you will see the real picture clearly.

Please stop your biased commentary and get your head out of your own backside. China is a permanent member of UNSC because of India. President Eisenhower offered India ROC's permanent seat in the 1950s. Prime Minister Nehru refused saying that China was the rightful owner. Would your darling, hypocrite China have ever done that? Instead China always subverts India's attempts to get a UNSC permanent seat.

Tibet has never been a part of China for over 2,500 years. China used the old Qing Empire's borders and militarily attacked and gobbled up Tibet. Of course India who has faced Muslim and British military aggression for over 1,000 years could empathize with Tibetans and offered them refuge. Tibet doesn not belong to you yet India has always maintained that Tibet is a part of PRC.

China also attacked India unprovoked in 1962 killing hundreds of India soldiers and illegally capturing Aksai Chin, an integral part of India.

China has proliferated nuclear weapons to Pakistan and constantly kept them supplied with arms for over 40 years and created a potentially catastrophic arms race in the Indian sub-continent.

China has stabbed India in the back too may times to count. And this climate agreement vole-face is just one more. We are used to it from China.

I think we understand each other perfectly fine. End of story.

Actually if you looked at what I said, it was perfectly sensible. I actually stooped down to your level and answered your rambling. Serves me right. I will ignore you from now on. Please do us all a favor and don't spoil sensible posts posted for serious debate. Please carry out your jingoism elsewhere.

[quote India is foolish if it believes China will stick by it on Climate.
[/quote]

Actually, Indian environmental minister Mr Ramesh started believing after his visit to China (may be he would have shown with some hot Chickis Chicks). It is his own assumption that China supports India, actually India has supported China in Copenhagen.