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QUOTE
China drops claims to ancient Korean kingdom

IDENTITY: An ancient state which Koreans say was founded by their ancestors is now Chinese territory, but China's claims to it have angered Koreans

AFP , SEOUL
Wednesday, Aug 25, 2004,Page 5
South Korea and China have settled a row over an ancient kingdom that disappeared more than 1,000 years ago, officials said yesterday, mending a rift in the two countries' flourishing ties.

China agreed not to lay claim to the state of Koguryo, which straddled modern Manchuria from 57BC to 668AD, after both countries' officials reached a "verbal understanding," South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon said.

Clash of cultures

Koreans believe their ancestors founded the kingdom, which is rich in archeological relics -- including priceless paintings on the murals of burial sites -- and regard it as part of their national identity.

But they were outraged earlier this year when a state-funded Chinese history project claimed that Koguryo was always part of China.

"China is mindful of the fact that the Koguryo question has emerged as a serious pending issue between the two countries," Ban said of the agreement, which was not put in writing.

The vaguely worded "understanding" did not specifically mention China's promise not to claim the kingdom as its history, but the two sides agreed to take it as meaning just that, another South Korean foreign ministry official said.

It also called for efforts to prevent the dispute from turning into a major political issue and to organize academic exchanges on the matter, the official said.

China, however, did not accept Seoul's demand that Beijing's foreign ministry restore deleted references to Koguryo from its Web site on Korean history.

In its heyday, Koguryo -- which is also known as Koryo, the origin of the name Korea -- encompassed much of what is now the border between China and North Korea.

It vanished after being conquered by China's Tang dynasty.

South Korean politicians were up in arms over the row, accusing the Chinese government of attempting to rob Koreans of one of the gems of their cultural heritage.

China's news media had also waded into the dispute, claiming that Koguryo was a provincial government of China under the central authority of Beijing.

However, the two sides have now agreed to make joint efforts to prevent the historical row undermining ties which have been developing fast since the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1992.

China was particularly concerned by the prospect of a reunified North and South Korea making claims on the area formerly covered by the ancient nation.

"Although this is not included in the points of understanding, China showed acute reactions to claims by some Korean politicians and scholars that the Chinese far-eastern provinces [that used to be Koguryo territory] should be returned to Korea," Ban said.

"China called for the [South Korean] government to restrain them," he added.

North Korea, which lovingly maintains Koguryo tombs and relics on its territory, has so far remained silent on the dispute with China, a key ally of the Stalinist state.

united in anger

The dispute is one of the few issues to unite ruling and opposition parties in South Korea at a time of deep divisions on key issues including North Korea, the lackluster economy and the US-led war in Iraq.

The accord on Monday came after China's newly appointed vice minister, Wu Dawei, flew to Seoul on Sunday for a series of meetings with South Korean officials.

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China, Korea Dispute Ancient Kingdom

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SEOUL, South Korea - The ancient kingdom of Koguryo, famed for its mighty castles and horseback warriors, has sprung back to life in a "war of history" between South Korea and China that carries alarming modern-day implications.

The dispute has raised diplomatic hackles and symbolizes what many say are rival geopolitical designs on Northeast Asia, a region rich in conflict and currently riled over North Korea 's nuclear weapons programs.

The wrangling could also influence the way future borders are drawn between two of Asia's biggest economic powers should the region become unstable.

Koguryo ruled much of Korea and Manchuria, now China, until it vanished from maps 1,300 years ago. It has been dragged into the headlines by a Beijing-backed study that deems the kingdom to be an integral part of China.

Not so, South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon insisted last week.

"It is an indisputable historical fact that Koguryo is the root of the Korean nation and an inseparable part of our history," he said. "We will sternly and confidently deal with any claims or arguments harming the legitimacy of our rights."

Reigning from 37 B.C. to A.D. 668 and spreading Buddhism throughout the region, the Koguryo kingdom straddled what is now North Korea and part of South Korea and the northeastern Chinese region of Manchuria.

South Koreans see Koguryo as the origin of their nation and revere its warrior kings as ancestors from a Golden Age. Koguryo is the root of the word "Korea."

Two years ago, Beijing's Chinese Academy of Social Sciences launched the Northeast Asia Project to study the history of China's northeastern provinces, which cover much of ancient Koguryo and are home to large ethnic Korean communities.

Chinese scholars say Koguryo tribes were among the many minorities absorbed into greater China, and that since about two-thirds of Koguryo lies within today's China, it is key to China's history. They further enraged scholars from both South and North Korea by releasing papers claiming Koguryo was a vassal kingdom that sought Chinese sanction for its leaders and paid tribute.

Outraged South Koreans began a 10-million signature petition drive to condemn "China's distortion of history," while their government backed a parallel academic study to counter China's claims.

Korean academics say Koguryo was in fact a fiercely independent state that often clashed with China until its defeat by China and a regional ally.

Neither government wants to be dragged into what Foreign Minister Ban calls a "sensitive issue that could trigger public sentiments in both countries." But neither shows signs of backing down.

Academics say Koguryo has future implications too. China fears a scenario in which impoverished North Korea collapses, releasing a flood of refugees — and instability — in its backyard and forcing it to establish a new frontier facing a unified pro-U.S. Korea.

"China's Northeast Asian Project is not just about Koguryo but aims at asserting its historical claims to Manchuria and even part of the Korean peninsula in case the region turns unstable," says Ahn Byung-woo, a historian at South Korea's Hanshin University.

The controversy echoes other historical disputes in Northeast Asia, where countries with vibrant economic ties still grapple with violent pasts. South Korea and Japan dispute a set of islets. China and the two Koreas accuse Japan of failing to atone for its brutal colonial past.

Koguryo is even triggering a rare alignment between communist North Korea and the capitalist South. North Korea preaches "the Korean nation was at its prime during the time of Koguryo" and uses the Koguryo legacy to whip up militaristic fervor against foreign powers, especially the United States.

Textbooks in both Koreas say Koguryo tribes are more closely related to today's Koreans than mainstream Chinese, and that their customs, including sleeping on heated floors and eating fermented bean paste, are better preserved in Korea.

South Korea is backing the North's bid to have UNESCO designate its Koguryo relics as a World Heritage Site. China seeks the same honor for Koguryo monuments, fortresses and other ruins in its territories.

China is North Korea's main ally, but that didn't stop Pyongyang's state-run newspaper Rodong Sinmun from accusing China of "manipulating history for its own interest."

It likened Chinese claim on Koguryo to "stealing water from another man's rice paddy."

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Records Contradict China's Claims Over Koguryo


The following is the second in a series of articles on China’s misrepresentations of the history of the ancient kingdom of Koguryo (37 B.C.-A.D. 668) _ ED.
By Choi Kwang-shik
Professor of Korea University

In China’s Northeast Asia Project, research into ancient Korean history is concentrated on the people and culture of Koguryo and Palhae (698-926), as well as old Choson, but with special attention given to the kingdom of Koguryo.

South Korea is also paying particular attention to the fact that Koguryo is being treated as just another of ancient China’s many regional powers. Many arguments and opinions concerning the status of Koguryo have been voiced in the past, but with the national Northeast Asia Project, Koguryo has officially been declared a regional territory of ancient China.

Several reasons have been proposed by China for this assertion, but when analyzed carefully, each is hard to accept. Some include:

_ Koguryo was a kingdom established by people within China’s territory. Though its capital moved several times during the kingdom’s existence, it never moved outside the influence of the Han Chinese commanderies (located in an area of the Korean peninsula at one point colonized by the Han people).

_ Koguryo maintained a sovereign relationship with the central powers within ancient China and did not try to sever the relationship.

_ After the kingdom’s collapse, its core body was absorbed into the Han Chinese.

With these arguments, China asserts that historically Koguryo was a regional power within ancient China, and that a distinction should be made between Koguryo and the people of Koryo (918-1392), another kingdom of ancient Korea.

China also argues that the Koguryo lineage and the Koryo lineage are not blood-related, their kings having different surnames and 250 years separating the two kingdoms. Therefore, a historical link between the two kingdoms does not exist, the argument continues.

However, even in Chinese history books, the people of Koguryo were recorded as being part of the Yemaek tribe, along with the people of Paekje (another ancient Korean kingdom).

Also, China points to ancient documents such as those citing the taxes and gifts given to central Chinese authorities by Koguryo in order to establish the relationship of subject and ruler between Koguryo and ancient China.

However, such gestures were quite common in East Asia during that period, and can thus be considered purely diplomatic and formal.

China asserts that Koguryo’s wars with the Sui and Tang empires can be considered battles between central and regional powers within ancient China. However, Koguryo's successful resistance of the invasion by the Sui Dynasty (589-618), a conflict that came as a prelude to the collapse of the dynasty, should be seen as war between independent states.

Also, it is possible that some of Koguryo’s people, along with the people of Silla, were absorbed by the Tang empire. However, most stayed within the region of Koguryo to establish the kingdom of Palhae.

China may claim there is no connection between the kingdoms of Koguryo and Koryo, but the name Koryo was chosen by the latter kingdom due to the acknowledgement of a connection. If it is argued that there is no connection in the lineage of the rulers of the two kingdoms due to the difference in surnames, then it must also be said that there is no connection in ancient China either, as the rulers alternated between people of the Han and people of other northern groups.

Historical Reality of Koguryo

Mention of Koguryo can of course be found in the Chinese historical records, particularly in the famous ``The Annals of the Three Kingdoms,’’ which concerns the Chinese kingdoms of Wei, Shu and Wu. In the Book of Wei in the ``The Annals’’, there are sections dealing with the ancient kingdoms of Ohwan and Sonbi, as well as Tongi, a name used by the Chinese for groups and tribes residing east of their territory (and therefore not part of China). The book records Koguryo not as part of the main history of the three kingdoms _ ie. China _ but as part of Tongi.

If one sees ``The Annals’’ as providing evidence that Koguryo was part of Chinese history, then not only Ohhwan, Sonbi and Tongi, but all other barbarians residing near China, and even the people of Japan, have to be considered part of China.

Also in ``The Annals,’’ there is mention of a ritual for the heavens that was performed not only by the people of Koguryo, but also by those belonging to other kingdoms and groups existing outside China, including Puyo, Ye, Samhan and Mahan. Though the names and dates of these heavenly rituals differ from group to group, their contents were the same.

However, China believed that only the Chinese emperor could perform such rituals for the heavens. If China considered Koguryo as part of its empire, then it would not have allowed it to perform the ritual. Therefore, the fact that Koguryo, Puyo, Mahan and others are all recorded as holding these rituals suggests that China saw them as separate and independent states.

There is similar evidence in Korea as well. The inscription on Kwanggaetowang Nungbi (Monument to King Kwanggaeto, a Koguryo king) reads ``Chonje Jisa,'' which means ``Son of the Heavenly Emperor,'' while Moduru Myojimyong (Tombstone of the High Official Moduru) has an inscription reading ``Ilwol Jija,'' or ``Son of the Sun and the Moon.'' Again, such inscriptions would have been reserved only for the Chinese emperor and therefore not used by the people of Koguryo if they had truly been subject to central Chinese authority.

The 12th century Korean historian Kim Pu-sik's famous ``Samguk Sagi (The History of the Three Kingdoms),'' a record of the three kingdoms on the Korean pensinsula _ Koguryo, Paekje and Silla _ provides further evidence. In the fifty-volume work, 12 volumes devoted to Koguryo are called the Koguryo Pongi. ``Pongi’’ is a term reserved for nations independent of China. Subjects of China would have used the word ``sega.’’

Contemporary Chinese middle school textbooks also refer to Koguryo as a nation existing outside the Sui empire, which ruled Chinese territory during the time of Koguryo. In books detailing world history used by modern Chinese students, Koguryo is referred to as being part of Korean history and not Chinese history.

There are also differences in the positions China and Korea take on Palhae, the kingdom that came after Koguryo, which may be a source of future arguments concerning Koguryo. We must be wary of the continuation of the Northeast Asia Project, as its research results may be reflected in history textbooks published in China. If we are not careful, there may come a time when Koguryo is referred to as a part of Chinese history.

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What Is Behind China’s Attempt to Distort the Past?


The following is the first in a series of articles on China’s distortion of the history of the ancient Korean kingdom of Koguryo. _ ED.
By Choi Kwang-shik
Professor of Korea University

In February 2002, China officially established the Northeast Asia Project, which was actually in the works for the past five years. This Northeast Asia Project, organized through the China Border Land, which is affiliated with the state-run China Academy of Social Sciences, is one that has significant national importance due to its dealing of history and contemporary problems in China’s northeastern region in an academic manner.

However, while working on this Northeast Asia Project, the Chinese government is distorting the history of the kingdoms of Koguryo (B.C. 37-A.D. 668) and Palhae (698-926), as well as Korea’s primitive ancestors, all of which are connected to Korean ancient and contemporary history. The South Korean government has protested over this and asked the Chinese to stop their historical distortions.

China’s distortion of history can be traced back to 1980, when the country began a ``one people’’ policy, a reform measure that attempted to consolidate all of China’s people into one, and began to show much interest in the smaller ethnic and minority groups within its borders. Especially, with the changing of power in Eastern Europe in 1989 and the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, China showed more concern over regional groups that resided close to the borders.

The beginning of friendly relations between South Korea and China in 1992 brought even more interest to China’s northeastern regions. In a meeting in 1993, academics from China and North Korea got into intense arguments over the issue.

Also, as North Korean defectors began crossing into China from the mid-1990s onwards, China became more serious about setting up a policy to deal with the political situation concerning the northeastern regions, which borders North Korea.

It was around this point that research institutes in China’s northeastern region began to establish a project to deal with the area’s history, geography and people. China began to deal with the Koguryo Kingdom as it would any of its minority groups and released papers that attempted to absorb Koguryo history into Chinese history.

However, when the South Korean National Assembly established in 2001 a special law to deal with ethnic Koreans residing in China, the Chinese government began creating its own countermeasure regarding the descendents of ancient Korea and the potential problems arising from a unification of Korean peninsula.

When North Korea applied in 2001 to UNESCO to have its Koguryo remains declared a World Heritage site, the Chinese government seems to have begun the so-called Northeast Asia Project. The reason was that if North Korea’s Koguryo sites were given World Heritage status, then China would have a difficult time justifying its own claims over Koguryo history.

So, China successfully postponed North Korea’s application for its Koguryo sites to UNESCO, and in 2003, applied its own Koguryo site to be declared a World Heritage.

Seen in long term, China’s moves can be seen as a proactive measure to deal with a potential border dispute that could arise if South and North Korea were to be unified. Or else, it is a preemptive act in preparation for possible power changes in North Korea by fortifying its position in the northeastern region.

Also, China might wish to prevent any confusion of identity that ethnic Koreans in China might feel due to a future unification of the Koreas.

Regardless, all the possible reasons share a common trait _ that the distortion of history by China cannot be seen as simply an academic issue, but that it is also related to territorial as well as political problems.

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President Roh Regrets Koguryo Row


By Ryu Jin
Staff Reporter
President Roh Moo-hyun expressed ``strong regret’’ over China’s misrepresentation of the history of the ancient kingdom of Koguryo, Chong Wa Dae spokesman Kim Jong-min said Friday.

``It is very regrettable that the issue has been a bone of contention between the two countries in recent days,’’ Roh was quoted as saying during his meeting with Jia Qinglin, a high-level Chinese official, at Chong Wa Dae.

Roh also urged China to take quick and appropriate measures to address the issue, Kim explained.

Roh’s remarks came in response to Chinese President Hu Jintao’s suggestion, delivered to him by the visiting Chinese official, that the two countries cooperate closely to resolve the recent diplomatic row.

Hu told Roh through Jia that the history dispute over Koguryo would be solved properly if both sides deal with it with sincerity and respect.

``The relationship between China and South Korea has recently been affected to a certain degree by the Koguryo issue,’’ Hu said in a verbal message delivered by the China’s No. 4 official.

``We will be able to properly address each other’s concerns, with ample wisdom, if we respect each other and act with regard for long-term and strategic points of view,’’ the Chinese head of state was quoted as saying.

A close confidant to former Chinese president Jiang Zemin, Jia flew into Seoul on Thursday at the invitation of National Assembly Speaker Kim One-ki. Jia heads the National Committee of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference, a senate-like body in the world’s most populous country.

In preparation for Jia’s Seoul visit, China dispatched its vice foreign minister, Wu Dawei, here earlier this week to reach a five-point ``verbal understanding’’ on the Koguryo problem. In the loosely worded agreement, China promised that it would no longer attempt to misrepresent the history of Koguryo at the government level.

Most Koreans believe Koguryo, a kingdom of hunting tribes that ruled much of modern day North Korea and Chinese Manchuria from 37 B.C. to A.D. 668, is an essential part of their history. Both South and North Koreans take pride in the legacy of Koguryo, especially its independent spirit, military might and cultural achievements.

China has waged a systematic campaign for several months to distort ancient history, behind which foreign media suggested it was fearing a ``greater Korea’’ that would spill over modern borders after the reunification of the peninsula.

In April, China’s Foreign Ministry deleted references to Koguryo from pages on Korean history on its Web site. The move, which followed a series of similar ones by other Chinese academic and media organizations, was interpreted as an attempt by China to claim the kingdom as part of its own history.

South Korea demanded that the references be restored, but China, instead of accepting the demand, removed the entire description of Korea’s history up until 1948, when South Korea was established.

Before the two countries worked out this week’s agreement, Seoul had sent a strong warning to Beijing over the issue, saying a crisis in relations could occur.

A North Korean magazine, in the meantime, indirectly criticized China’s bid to distort ancient Korean history by publishing a detailed history of another Korean kingdom, Parhae.

``Parhae was a sovereign country that succeeded Koguryo and had a major role in developing Korean history while existing for more than 200 years from 698 to 926,’’ the monthly Choson said in its August issue. ``The people of Koguryo formed Parhae and its territory was almost identical to that of Koguryo.’’

It was the latest in a series of reports in the North Korean news media on Koguryo and Parhae. The North recently increased the volume of such reports in an apparent protest against what it sees as China’s bid to distort early Korean history. However, it refrained from directly criticizing its staunch ally.

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The Forgotten Glory of Koguryo
Lee Wha Rang

Koguryo (高句麗), one of Korea's ancient three kingdoms, existed for 700 years ruled by 26 wise kings. All kings strove to better people's welfare and strengthen the military. Koguryo had to fight invaders from north and its citizens were well organized and train ed in the art of warfare. It developed unique culture and remarkably advanced educational, socio-political and military systems.

Koguryo murals are rich in color and tone. Women dancing, warriors in practice, birds in the sky, dragons, fish in rivers, beasts in forests, wind and clouds of the murals appear so real and fresh, one fears they may jump out of the canvass at any time.

Map: Koguryo occupied much of today's Manchuria and part of Siberia. Since its formation in 57 BC. Koguryo became the most powerful nation in the Far East until it was toppled by the Silla-China alliance in 668 AD.

Both North and South Korea want the United Nations to designate Koguryo archeological sites a world cultural heritage in the same class as the Egyptian pyramids and the Mayan temples. After so many years of neglect and plunder, the past glory of Koguryo is fast disappearing.

Koguryo relics are situated in North Korea and Manchuria. South Korea is off limit to these sites. North Korea has limited technical and financial resources to explore and preserve the sites in North Korea. China has little interest in preserving its former ruler of Manchuria.

Last year, thieves stole priceless Koguryo frescos from the Kilrim site in China. The thieves are still at large. China is building a dam, which will ruin several sites. Koguryo forts and structures are being pulled down and used as building materials by the local residents. Apartments stand where Koguryo castles used to stand. Ancient sites are cleared for factories. King Kwangkaeto's burial mound remains desecrated and unattended.

Koguryo was established in 37 BC from several warring tribes in Manchuria and North Korea. Its first king was King Dong-myong, In 342 AD, Koguryo was invaded by the Chinese Yen. The Chinese were driven out after years of intense fighting.

Photo: A Koguryo mural of hunting, circa 6th Century AD.

The power of Koguryo peaked under its 19th king, King Kwang-gae-to (廣開土大王). Until his epitaph was discovered in the 19th Century, some historians believed he was only a fictional character. He was born in 374 AD and became the king in 391 AD at the age of 18.

During his 22-year reign, he warred on and subdued neighboring states north and south. Koguryo' territory reached as far south as the Nakdong River and as far north as the Song-wha river (松花江) in North Manchuria. Under his rule, Buddhism flourished and the economy expanded.

In 372 AD, Koguryo officially adopted Buddhism as the state religion. Koguryo established a state academy to educate the nobility and compiled a state history consisting of 100 chapters before the introduction of Buddhism. State codes were promulgated to initiate a legal system to rule the people.

Koguryo dominated Silla, Baikje, Gaya, Bukyun, and Dong-Buyuh. In 400 AD, Koguryo helped Silla defeat and expel a Japanese invasion army. Four years later, Koguryo smashed an allied army of Baikje and Japan. The King died in 412 AD at the young age of 39 and his gigantic epitaph was erected in 414 AD in Jirin (China - 中國 吉林城集安市 太王鄕 大碑街).

Photo: The Generals' Village at Jip-ahn, the ancient capital of Koguryo. The pyramid is remarkably similar to those Inca/Maya in the Americas.

Until 385 AD, China was in chaos with numerous warlords fighting for hegemony and none of them was powerful enough to attack Koguryo, and Koguryo had friendly relations with the warlords, exchanging envoys and gifts. With the emergence of a unified China, Koguryo became under military forays by the Chinese and was forced to move its capital to Pyongyang, far away from the Chinese border.

In about 610 AD, Sui Emperor Yang-ti invaded Koguryo with more than one million men. In 612 AD, Koguryo General Ulchi Mundok held key fortresses against Yang-ti's army and navy for several months and destroyed the Sui troops in retreat. An ambush at Salsu (Ch'ongch'ongang River) killed all but 2,700 Sui troops out of 300,000 men sent to capture Pyongyang. In 613 AD, Emperor Yang-ti led an army to invade Koguryo but he failed again. In his absence, his political enemies rose up and Yang-ti was forced to return to China. The Koguryo army inflicted heavy losses on the retreating Chinese troops.

One of Yang-ti's top generals Hu Sizheng defected to Koguryo with critical intelligence on Yang-ti's future war plans. In 614 AD, Yang-ti assembled another invasion army but again internal rifts forced him to abandon his quest. Yang-ti's war on Koguryo weakened his Sui Empire and Sui fell to T'ang in 618 AD.

Photo: (right) A 1,500 year old wall painting of a woman in Koguryo a tomb in Nampo. Courtesy of Chosun Ilbo. (Below) Koguryo court attires for women. Courtesy of Traditional Court Clothing of Koguryo.

Koguryo stayed strong and united under the wise rule of King Yongyang, who died in 617 AD and King Yongnyu ascended the throne. He was incompetent and pro-Chinese, allowing T'ang troops to roam his kingdom on the pretext of recovering the remains of the Chinese troops killed in Koguryo. In 642 AD, General Yon Kaesomun toppled the king and installed the king' nephew as the new king, but Kaesomun ruled the nation.

Koguryo had advanced weapons of the era. Short Mongol-style bows with double arches were extensively used by the cavalry. Sharpshooters and special forces were equipped with crossbows, that were effective in taking out enemy commanders. Catapults were used to rein heavy rocks on the enemy. The Koguryo soldiers were good at throwing daggers at the enemy in close range fighting.

Photo: The Koguryo Queen attire based on the paintings found in Koguryo tombs. Photo courtesy of Chosun Ilbo.

Koguryo maintained a standing army of about 50,000 men that would grow to more than 300,000 men in times of war. General Ulchi Mundok (을지문덕 乙支文德) commanded an army of 300,000. Unlike most armies of the era in which soldiers were jack-of-all-trades, the Koguryo army was made of specialists: archers, crossbow-men, spear-man, catapult operators, horsemen, wall-climbers, and so on.

In 612 AD, a Su army of over one million men (about 1,113,800) invaded Koguryo. Genral Unchi Mundok deployed his outnumbered men along the southern bank of the Yalu river. He 'surrendered' to the enemy in order to spy on the enemy strength. After learning that the Su soldiers were tired and demoralized, the general escaped across the Yalu.

He feigned defeat after defeat in order to lure the enemy deep in the friendly territory to tire them and stretch the enemy supply lines. The enemy took the bait and came within 30 ri from Pyongyang. The enemy chief, Wu Jung-mu realized the futility of going any further and ordered his army to turn back and go home. This was exactly what General Ulchi Mundok expected and the Koguryo forces fell on the retreating Sue troops, inflicting heavy casualties.

T''ang's emperor T'ai-tsung tried to topple Koguryo in 644 AD, 648 AD and 655 AD - all repulsed by Koguryo. The years of constant warfare eventually brought down the once mighty Koguryo. Ironically, the end came when a fellow Korean state Silla joined up with T'ang in 668 AD and invaded from south while T'ang moved in from north. This two-front war was too much for Koguryo.

In 660 AD, Baikje fell to Silla and in the following year, Pyongyang fell to T'ang invaders. However, General Yon Kaesomun attacked T'ang's supply lines and forced the T'ang army to retreat. The general died in 666 AD and his three sons began to fight for succession. In 668 AD, the Tang army returned and occupied Pyongyang. After the fall of the capital, the remnants of the defeated Koguryo army fought on until 673 AD, when King Bojang died - Koguryo was no more.

Photo: General Ulchi Munduk. Photo courtesy of Chosun Ilbo.

Koguryo officials and 200,000 prisoners were taken to China and Koguryo's territory was annexed to T'ang. Many of the Korean prisoners served T'ang emperors well. For example, Ko Sagye, a famous Koguryo general, joined the T'ang army. Hi s son Ko Son-ji rose to a high rank and led a T'ang army to subdue Tashkent in the mid-eighth century and introduced the art of paper-making to the Arabs.

In 674 AD, T'ang invaded its former ally Silla. Silla defeated the T'ang army and freed Koguryo capital Pyongyang. In 735 AD, Silla regained the Koguryo territory south of Taedonggang. Subsequent Korean kings regained the lost territory south of Yalu and Tumen.

The last king of Koryo attempted to invade Manchuria to regain the rest of Koguryo territory. Unfortunately, the general in charge, Yi Sung Gye, mounted a coup instead and founded the Chosun (Yi) Dynasty.

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China - Sui Dynasty

In 581 AD, a general named Wen Ti from northwest China succeeded in conquering the other two kingdoms and establishing a new dynasty in China, with emperors who ruled all of China like the Ch'in and the Han. This was the Sui Dynasty. Wen Ti made himself popular by trying to make the government better than it was during the Three Kingdoms. Wen Ti ordered that poor people in the countryside should pay less taxes than they had before. And he sent men around to all the provinces to count how many people there were and how much land and money each of them had (this is called a census) so that the government would know how much taxes that province should pay. He ordered that every man should get a certain amount of land to farm. When the man turned 60 and was too old to farm, he would stop paying taxes and give back some of the land, and pass on the rest to his sons.

Wen Ti also decided to go back to the Han Dynasty way of picking his government officials through the university and the great examinations, to find out who were the smartest and best educated men (Women were not allowed to be government officials at this time).

Wu Ti died while he was still not old. He may have been killed by his son, Yang Ti, who wanted to be the emperor himself. In any case Yang Ti did become the next Sui emperor. Yang Ti wanted to be a great emperor, so he began a lot of important projects. Yang Ti's best project was one where people dug a Grand Canal which connected the Yellow River with the Huai and Yangtze Rivers and made it much easier to get from northern to southern China and back again.

But Yang Ti's worst project was that he attacked Korea to try to take it over. He got together a great army of over a million men to invade Korea, but his great army was defeated and had to run away. The army generals were angry about this and killed Yang Ti. That was the end of the Sui Dynasty.

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QUOTE
Ulji Moonduk
It is not known exactly when or where this illustrious man was born, and unfortunately it is also not known exactly when he died. The best that can be said is that he was born in the mid-6th century and died in the early 7th century, sometime after 618. He was born and raised in the kingdom of Goguryeo, in a turbulent era of Korean history. It was a powerful and warlike kingdom, constantly warring with its neighbours, Silla to the southeast and Baekje to the southwest. The balance of power was roughly equal between the three kingdoms, however, and it took the injection of an outside influence to tip the balance. This influence was supplied by the kingdoms’ much larger western neighbor, China. In 589 China had been united under the Sui Dynasty, and this new dynasty, hungry for power, would be the deciding factor in the struggles between Baekje, Goguryeo and Silla. This was the background for Ulji Mundok as he grew up.
He was an educated man, and eventually became a Minister of Goguryeo, with skills in both the political and military sciences. He was called upon to render service as a military leader, however, when the very existance of the kingdom became threatened by alliances between its rival neighbors.

The Sui Dynasty was suspicious of Goguryeo and saw its aggressive ways as threatening, so, in 612, Sui Emperor Yang Di decided to subdue this dangerous neighbour and prepared to attack. He mustered an army of over one million men and personally led them against Goguryeo. They quickly overran Goguryeo outposts, camped on the banks of the Liao River and prepared to bridge it. Ulji Mundok was called upon to assist in the defence of the nation, and so he prepared to meet the superior Sui forces with a strategy of false retreat, deception and attack.

After the Sui forces crossed the Liao River, a small contingent was sent to attack the Goguryeo city of Liaotung, but General Ulji sent his forces to meet them there and drove them out. As the rainy season progressed, the Sui forces tried other probing attacks, but these were not really of any significance, as they were mainly biding their time until the rainy season passed.

When the rains stopped, Yang Di moved his forces to the banks of the Yalu River in northwestern Korea and prepared for a major assault. General Ulji visited the Chinese camp under the pretense of surrender in an attempt to discover any Sui weaknesses. Emperor Yang Di listened to General Ulji and allowed him to leave the camp, but shortly after changed his mind and set out after him. But it was too late – the general had discovered what he needed to defeat the force. He had learned that the Sui forces were short of provisions and had overstretched their supply lines, and so he decided to pursue a strategy of gradual retreat, hoping to lure his enemy deeper and deeper into hostile territory. He drew the Sui on and fought a kind of guerrilla warfare, picking when and where he fought and allowing the Sui forces to feel as though victory was close at hand, all the while luring them deeper into his trap. A Sui advance force of over 300,000 men was sent to take the city of Pyongyang. General Ulji continued to lure them closer and closer to the city, but led them to a strategic point where he could strike. His forces attacked from all sides, driving the Sui troops back in utter confusion. His troops pursued the retreating army, slaughtering them almost at will, so that it is said that only 2,700 troops successfully made it back to the main body of forces. This was the great battle of Salsu, and it has come to be known as one of the most glorious military triumphs in Korea's national history. Following this defeat, winter began to set in and the Sui forces, short on provisions, were forced to return home.

The Sui Dynasty was beginning to disintegrate and Yang Di decided that he urgently needed to expand his empire in order to regain power, but the two more desperate attacks on Goguryeo by Yang Di following spring met with similar disaster, and eventually internal rebellion in China forced the Sui to give up its desires on Goguryeo. By 618, the relatively short-lived Sui Dynasty was replaced by the Tang Dynasty. General Ulji Mundok's strategy and leadership had saved Goguryeo from the Chinese.

Probably the most distinguished military leader of the Goguryeo period and one of the most well-known generals in Korean history, General Ulji Mundok's leadership and tactical acumen was the decisive factor in saving Goguryeo from destruction at the hands of the invading Chinese Sui Dynasty. He faced forces of far superior numbers and not only turned them back but was able to pursue and destroy them with such vigor that they were not able nor inclined to return. His life was filled with enough spectacular success to earn him a permanent place among Korea's most remembered. He is still celebrated as a great Korean hero, and a main street in downtown Seoul, Ulji-ro, is named after him.
Hwoarang
Man...how are you supposed to absorb all this info? China can make this claim, but how about China's history? From the Han's to the Manchurians, to whoever else was in power, China's only constant was that whoever conquored China didn't replace it but was swollowed by it and the conquorer's i.e. the Mongolians for example didn't rename China New Mongolia or anything but rather became Chinese. There are so many different seperate ethnic groups in China, that they are really the original melting pot. China's history along with Korea's and Japan, fuzzy in the past, but crystal clear today.
Adwaregator
QUOTE (Hwoarang @ Nov 18 2004, 05:25 AM)
Man...how are you supposed to absorb all this info?  China can make this claim, but how about China's history?  From the Han's to the Manchurians, to whoever else was in power, China's only constant was that whoever conquored China didn't replace it but was swollowed by it and the conquorer's i.e. the Mongolians for example didn't rename China New Mongolia or anything but rather became Chinese.  There are so many different seperate ethnic groups in China, that they are really the original melting pot.  China's history along with Korea's and Japan, fuzzy in the past, but crystal clear today.
*

It's because they were not as advanced as them and took up their styles of government and whatever else. I believe the mongols pretty much kept the same form of government the chinese had because it was better then theirs but I always thought the Mongols weren't "swallowed" but rather conquered by the next dynasty lol.
Hwoarang
"Swallowed" may have been a bad explination, but my whole point is that whoever conquored the current Chinese Dynasty could not change the whole of China. The conquorer's themselves had to become Chinese.
浪淘音
Mongolians resisted Sinicization more fiercely than any other group. Mongolians didn't become "Chinese" until the Qing Empire absorbed all of Mongolia Proper and declared the edict of Da Zhong Hua (Greater China).

btw, it was Manchus (the edict of Da Zhong Hua) that decided that all people living within the Chinese empire is Chinese. It was not a Han Chinese idea to make everyone Chinese.

whenever China is occupied, Chinese try to go about their bussiness. Its the invaders who feel they need to become Sinicized,NOT Chinese efforts to Sinicize

in conclusion, during the actual Mongol rule during Yuan, there was no large scale Sinicization.

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by the way, this is old news
Adwaregator
QUOTE (浪淘音 @ Nov 18 2004, 07:13 PM)
Mongolians resisted Sinicization more fiercely than any other group. Mongolians didn't become "Chinese" until the Qing Empire absorbed all of Mongolia Proper and declared the edict of Da Zhong Hua (Greater China).

btw, it was Manchus (the edict of Da Zhong Hua) that decided that all people living within the Chinese empire is Chinese. It was not a Han Chinese idea to make everyone Chinese.

whenever China is occupied, Chinese try to go about their bussiness. Its the invaders who feel they need to become Sinicized,NOT Chinese efforts to Sinicize

in conclusion, during the actual Mongol rule during Yuan, there was no large scale Sinicization.

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by the way, this is old news
*

It's nice to see a post where it's all information beerchug.gif
福州市长
that's good..we can be friends again
MING-LOYALIST
QUOTE (浪淘音 @ Nov 18 2004, 06:13 PM)
Mongolians resisted Sinicization more fiercely than any other group. Mongolians didn't become "Chinese" until the Qing Empire absorbed all of Mongolia Proper and declared the edict of Da Zhong Hua (Greater China).

btw, it was Manchus (the edict of Da Zhong Hua) that decided that all people living within the Chinese empire is Chinese. It was not a Han Chinese idea to make everyone Chinese.

whenever China is occupied, Chinese try to go about their bussiness. Its the invaders who feel they need to become Sinicized,NOT Chinese efforts to Sinicize

in conclusion, during the actual Mongol rule during Yuan, there was no large scale Sinicization.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by the way, this is old news
*



Goog info. beerchug.gif
The Mongols run back to mongolia with the Imperial seal of China which they later gave to the Manchus.
mindtransformation
You obviously have done some research on this topic. Do you happen to know anything about the supposed ancestral connection between Turks and Koreans. Turks often speak of Koreans as being "cousins". I am trying to figure out why and whether or not this is verifiable. Thanks

Mindtransformation



QUOTE (ksurf3rgrl @ Nov 13 2004, 01:21 PM)
Thanks to Igoo..

QUOTE
China drops claims to ancient Korean kingdom

IDENTITY: An ancient state which Koreans say was founded by their ancestors is now Chinese territory, but China's claims to it have angered Koreans

AFP , SEOUL
Wednesday, Aug 25, 2004,Page 5
South Korea and China have settled a row over an ancient kingdom that disappeared more than 1,000 years ago, officials said yesterday, mending a rift in the two countries' flourishing ties.

China agreed not to lay claim to the state of Koguryo, which straddled modern Manchuria from 57BC to 668AD, after both countries' officials reached a "verbal understanding," South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon said.

Clash of cultures

Koreans believe their ancestors founded the kingdom, which is rich in archeological relics -- including priceless paintings on the murals of burial sites -- and regard it as part of their national identity.

But they were outraged earlier this year when a state-funded Chinese history project claimed that Koguryo was always part of China.

"China is mindful of the fact that the Koguryo question has emerged as a serious pending issue between the two countries," Ban said of the agreement, which was not put in writing.

The vaguely worded "understanding" did not specifically mention China's promise not to claim the kingdom as its history, but the two sides agreed to take it as meaning just that, another South Korean foreign ministry official said.

It also called for efforts to prevent the dispute from turning into a major political issue and to organize academic exchanges on the matter, the official said.

China, however, did not accept Seoul's demand that Beijing's foreign ministry restore deleted references to Koguryo from its Web site on Korean history.

In its heyday, Koguryo -- which is also known as Koryo, the origin of the name Korea -- encompassed much of what is now the border between China and North Korea.

It vanished after being conquered by China's Tang dynasty.

South Korean politicians were up in arms over the row, accusing the Chinese government of attempting to rob Koreans of one of the gems of their cultural heritage.

China's news media had also waded into the dispute, claiming that Koguryo was a provincial government of China under the central authority of Beijing.

However, the two sides have now agreed to make joint efforts to prevent the historical row undermining ties which have been developing fast since the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1992.

China was particularly concerned by the prospect of a reunified North and South Korea making claims on the area formerly covered by the ancient nation.

"Although this is not included in the points of understanding, China showed acute reactions to claims by some Korean politicians and scholars that the Chinese far-eastern provinces [that used to be Koguryo territory] should be returned to Korea," Ban said.

"China called for the [South Korean] government to restrain them," he added.

North Korea, which lovingly maintains Koguryo tombs and relics on its territory, has so far remained silent on the dispute with China, a key ally of the Stalinist state.

united in anger

The dispute is one of the few issues to unite ruling and opposition parties in South Korea at a time of deep divisions on key issues including North Korea, the lackluster economy and the US-led war in Iraq.

The accord on Monday came after China's newly appointed vice minister, Wu Dawei, flew to Seoul on Sunday for a series of meetings with South Korean officials.

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QUOTE
China, Korea Dispute Ancient Kingdom

quote:

SEOUL, South Korea - The ancient kingdom of Koguryo, famed for its mighty castles and horseback warriors, has sprung back to life in a "war of history" between South Korea and China that carries alarming modern-day implications.

The dispute has raised diplomatic hackles and symbolizes what many say are rival geopolitical designs on Northeast Asia, a region rich in conflict and currently riled over North Korea 's nuclear weapons programs.

The wrangling could also influence the way future borders are drawn between two of Asia's biggest economic powers should the region become unstable.

Koguryo ruled much of Korea and Manchuria, now China, until it vanished from maps 1,300 years ago. It has been dragged into the headlines by a Beijing-backed study that deems the kingdom to be an integral part of China.

Not so, South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon insisted last week.

"It is an indisputable historical fact that Koguryo is the root of the Korean nation and an inseparable part of our history," he said. "We will sternly and confidently deal with any claims or arguments harming the legitimacy of our rights."

Reigning from 37 B.C. to A.D. 668 and spreading Buddhism throughout the region, the Koguryo kingdom straddled what is now North Korea and part of South Korea and the northeastern Chinese region of Manchuria.

South Koreans see Koguryo as the origin of their nation and revere its warrior kings as ancestors from a Golden Age. Koguryo is the root of the word "Korea."

Two years ago, Beijing's Chinese Academy of Social Sciences launched the Northeast Asia Project to study the history of China's northeastern provinces, which cover much of ancient Koguryo and are home to large ethnic Korean communities.

Chinese scholars say Koguryo tribes were among the many minorities absorbed into greater China, and that since about two-thirds of Koguryo lies within today's China, it is key to China's history. They further enraged scholars from both South and North Korea by releasing papers claiming Koguryo was a vassal kingdom that sought Chinese sanction for its leaders and paid tribute.

Outraged South Koreans began a 10-million signature petition drive to condemn "China's distortion of history," while their government backed a parallel academic study to counter China's claims.

Korean academics say Koguryo was in fact a fiercely independent state that often clashed with China until its defeat by China and a regional ally.

Neither government wants to be dragged into what Foreign Minister Ban calls a "sensitive issue that could trigger public sentiments in both countries." But neither shows signs of backing down.

Academics say Koguryo has future implications too. China fears a scenario in which impoverished North Korea collapses, releasing a flood of refugees — and instability — in its backyard and forcing it to establish a new frontier facing a unified pro-U.S. Korea.

"China's Northeast Asian Project is not just about Koguryo but aims at asserting its historical claims to Manchuria and even part of the Korean peninsula in case the region turns unstable," says Ahn Byung-woo, a historian at South Korea's Hanshin University.

The controversy echoes other historical disputes in Northeast Asia, where countries with vibrant economic ties still grapple with violent pasts. South Korea and Japan dispute a set of islets. China and the two Koreas accuse Japan of failing to atone for its brutal colonial past.

Koguryo is even triggering a rare alignment between communist North Korea and the capitalist South. North Korea preaches "the Korean nation was at its prime during the time of Koguryo" and uses the Koguryo legacy to whip up militaristic fervor against foreign powers, especially the United States.

Textbooks in both Koreas say Koguryo tribes are more closely related to today's Koreans than mainstream Chinese, and that their customs, including sleeping on heated floors and eating fermented bean paste, are better preserved in Korea.

South Korea is backing the North's bid to have UNESCO designate its Koguryo relics as a World Heritage Site. China seeks the same honor for Koguryo monuments, fortresses and other ruins in its territories.

China is North Korea's main ally, but that didn't stop Pyongyang's state-run newspaper Rodong Sinmun from accusing China of "manipulating history for its own interest."

It likened Chinese claim on Koguryo to "stealing water from another man's rice paddy."

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QUOTE
Records Contradict China's Claims Over Koguryo


The following is the second in a series of articles on China’s misrepresentations of the history of the ancient kingdom of Koguryo (37 B.C.-A.D. 668) _ ED.
By Choi Kwang-shik
Professor of Korea University

In China’s Northeast Asia Project, research into ancient Korean history is concentrated on the people and culture of Koguryo and Palhae (698-926), as well as old Choson, but with special attention given to the kingdom of Koguryo.

South Korea is also paying particular attention to the fact that Koguryo is being treated as just another of ancient China’s many regional powers. Many arguments and opinions concerning the status of Koguryo have been voiced in the past, but with the national Northeast Asia Project, Koguryo has officially been declared a regional territory of ancient China.

Several reasons have been proposed by China for this assertion, but when analyzed carefully, each is hard to accept. Some include:

_ Koguryo was a kingdom established by people within China’s territory. Though its capital moved several times during the kingdom’s existence, it never moved outside the influence of the Han Chinese commanderies (located in an area of the Korean peninsula at one point colonized by the Han people).

_ Koguryo maintained a sovereign relationship with the central powers within ancient China and did not try to sever the relationship.

_ After the kingdom’s collapse, its core body was absorbed into the Han Chinese.

With these arguments, China asserts that historically Koguryo was a regional power within ancient China, and that a distinction should be made between Koguryo and the people of Koryo (918-1392), another kingdom of ancient Korea.

China also argues that the Koguryo lineage and the Koryo lineage are not blood-related, their kings having different surnames and 250 years separating the two kingdoms. Therefore, a historical link between the two kingdoms does not exist, the argument continues.

However, even in Chinese history books, the people of Koguryo were recorded as being part of the Yemaek tribe, along with the people of Paekje (another ancient Korean kingdom).

Also, China points to ancient documents such as those citing the taxes and gifts given to central Chinese authorities by Koguryo in order to establish the relationship of subject and ruler between Koguryo and ancient China.

However, such gestures were quite common in East Asia during that period, and can thus be considered purely diplomatic and formal.

China asserts that Koguryo’s wars with the Sui and Tang empires can be considered battles between central and regional powers within ancient China. However, Koguryo's successful resistance of the invasion by the Sui Dynasty (589-618), a conflict that came as a prelude to the collapse of the dynasty, should be seen as war between independent states.

Also, it is possible that some of Koguryo’s people, along with the people of Silla, were absorbed by the Tang empire. However, most stayed within the region of Koguryo to establish the kingdom of Palhae.

China may claim there is no connection between the kingdoms of Koguryo and Koryo, but the name Koryo was chosen by the latter kingdom due to the acknowledgement of a connection. If it is argued that there is no connection in the lineage of the rulers of the two kingdoms due to the difference in surnames, then it must also be said that there is no connection in ancient China either, as the rulers alternated between people of the Han and people of other northern groups.

Historical Reality of Koguryo

Mention of Koguryo can of course be found in the Chinese historical records, particularly in the famous ``The Annals of the Three Kingdoms,’’ which concerns the Chinese kingdoms of Wei, Shu and Wu. In the Book of Wei in the ``The Annals’’, there are sections dealing with the ancient kingdoms of Ohwan and Sonbi, as well as Tongi, a name used by the Chinese for groups and tribes residing east of their territory (and therefore not part of China). The book records Koguryo not as part of the main history of the three kingdoms _ ie. China _ but as part of Tongi.

If one sees ``The Annals’’ as providing evidence that Koguryo was part of Chinese history, then not only Ohhwan, Sonbi and Tongi, but all other barbarians residing near China, and even the people of Japan, have to be considered part of China.

Also in ``The Annals,’’ there is mention of a ritual for the heavens that was performed not only by the people of Koguryo, but also by those belonging to other kingdoms and groups existing outside China, including Puyo, Ye, Samhan and Mahan. Though the names and dates of these heavenly rituals differ from group to group, their contents were the same.

However, China believed that only the Chinese emperor could perform such rituals for the heavens. If China considered Koguryo as part of its empire, then it would not have allowed it to perform the ritual. Therefore, the fact that Koguryo, Puyo, Mahan and others are all recorded as holding these rituals suggests that China saw them as separate and independent states.

There is similar evidence in Korea as well. The inscription on Kwanggaetowang Nungbi (Monument to King Kwanggaeto, a Koguryo king) reads ``Chonje Jisa,'' which means ``Son of the Heavenly Emperor,'' while Moduru Myojimyong (Tombstone of the High Official Moduru) has an inscription reading ``Ilwol Jija,'' or ``Son of the Sun and the Moon.'' Again, such inscriptions would have been reserved only for the Chinese emperor and therefore not used by the people of Koguryo if they had truly been subject to central Chinese authority.

The 12th century Korean historian Kim Pu-sik's famous ``Samguk Sagi (The History of the Three Kingdoms),'' a record of the three kingdoms on the Korean pensinsula _ Koguryo, Paekje and Silla _ provides further evidence. In the fifty-volume work, 12 volumes devoted to Koguryo are called the Koguryo Pongi. ``Pongi’’ is a term reserved for nations independent of China. Subjects of China would have used the word ``sega.’’

Contemporary Chinese middle school textbooks also refer to Koguryo as a nation existing outside the Sui empire, which ruled Chinese territory during the time of Koguryo. In books detailing world history used by modern Chinese students, Koguryo is referred to as being part of Korean history and not Chinese history.

There are also differences in the positions China and Korea take on Palhae, the kingdom that came after Koguryo, which may be a source of future arguments concerning Koguryo. We must be wary of the continuation of the Northeast Asia Project, as its research results may be reflected in history textbooks published in China. If we are not careful, there may come a time when Koguryo is referred to as a part of Chinese history.

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QUOTE
What Is Behind China’s Attempt to Distort the Past?


The following is the first in a series of articles on China’s distortion of the history of the ancient Korean kingdom of Koguryo. _ ED.
By Choi Kwang-shik
Professor of Korea University

In February 2002, China officially established the Northeast Asia Project, which was actually in the works for the past five years. This Northeast Asia Project, organized through the China Border Land, which is affiliated with the state-run China Academy of Social Sciences, is one that has significant national importance due to its dealing of history and contemporary problems in China’s northeastern region in an academic manner.

However, while working on this Northeast Asia Project, the Chinese government is distorting the history of the kingdoms of Koguryo (B.C. 37-A.D. 668) and Palhae (698-926), as well as Korea’s primitive ancestors, all of which are connected to Korean ancient and contemporary history. The South Korean government has protested over this and asked the Chinese to stop their historical distortions.

China’s distortion of history can be traced back to 1980, when the country began a ``one people’’ policy, a reform measure that attempted to consolidate all of China’s people into one, and began to show much interest in the smaller ethnic and minority groups within its borders. Especially, with the changing of power in Eastern Europe in 1989 and the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, China showed more concern over regional groups that resided close to the borders.

The beginning of friendly relations between South Korea and China in 1992 brought even more interest to China’s northeastern regions. In a meeting in 1993, academics from China and North Korea got into intense arguments over the issue.

Also, as North Korean defectors began crossing into China from the mid-1990s onwards, China became more serious about setting up a policy to deal with the political situation concerning the northeastern regions, which borders North Korea.

It was around this point that research institutes in China’s northeastern region began to establish a project to deal with the area’s history, geography and people. China began to deal with the Koguryo Kingdom as it would any of its minority groups and released papers that attempted to absorb Koguryo history into Chinese history.

However, when the South Korean National Assembly established in 2001 a special law to deal with ethnic Koreans residing in China, the Chinese government began creating its own countermeasure regarding the descendents of ancient Korea and the potential problems arising from a unification of Korean peninsula.

When North Korea applied in 2001 to UNESCO to have its Koguryo remains declared a World Heritage site, the Chinese government seems to have begun the so-called Northeast Asia Project. The reason was that if North Korea’s Koguryo sites were given World Heritage status, then China would have a difficult time justifying its own claims over Koguryo history.

So, China successfully postponed North Korea’s application for its Koguryo sites to UNESCO, and in 2003, applied its own Koguryo site to be declared a World Heritage.

Seen in long term, China’s moves can be seen as a proactive measure to deal with a potential border dispute that could arise if South and North Korea were to be unified. Or else, it is a preemptive act in preparation for possible power changes in North Korea by fortifying its position in the northeastern region.

Also, China might wish to prevent any confusion of identity that ethnic Koreans in China might feel due to a future unification of the Koreas.

Regardless, all the possible reasons share a common trait _ that the distortion of history by China cannot be seen as simply an academic issue, but that it is also related to territorial as well as political problems.

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QUOTE
President Roh Regrets Koguryo Row


By Ryu Jin
Staff Reporter
President Roh Moo-hyun expressed ``strong regret’’ over China’s misrepresentation of the history of the ancient kingdom of Koguryo, Chong Wa Dae spokesman Kim Jong-min said Friday.

``It is very regrettable that the issue has been a bone of contention between the two countries in recent days,’’ Roh was quoted as saying during his meeting with Jia Qinglin, a high-level Chinese official, at Chong Wa Dae.

Roh also urged China to take quick and appropriate measures to address the issue, Kim explained.

Roh’s remarks came in response to Chinese President Hu Jintao’s suggestion, delivered to him by the visiting Chinese official, that the two countries cooperate closely to resolve the recent diplomatic row.

Hu told Roh through Jia that the history dispute over Koguryo would be solved properly if both sides deal with it with sincerity and respect.

``The relationship between China and South Korea has recently been affected to a certain degree by the Koguryo issue,’’ Hu said in a verbal message delivered by the China’s No. 4 official.

``We will be able to properly address each other’s concerns, with ample wisdom, if we respect each other and act with regard for long-term and strategic points of view,’’ the Chinese head of state was quoted as saying.

A close confidant to former Chinese president Jiang Zemin, Jia flew into Seoul on Thursday at the invitation of National Assembly Speaker Kim One-ki. Jia heads the National Committee of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference, a senate-like body in the world’s most populous country.

In preparation for Jia’s Seoul visit, China dispatched its vice foreign minister, Wu Dawei, here earlier this week to reach a five-point ``verbal understanding’’ on the Koguryo problem. In the loosely worded agreement, China promised that it would no longer attempt to misrepresent the history of Koguryo at the government level.

Most Koreans believe Koguryo, a kingdom of hunting tribes that ruled much of modern day North Korea and Chinese Manchuria from 37 B.C. to A.D. 668, is an essential part of their history. Both South and North Koreans take pride in the legacy of Koguryo, especially its independent spirit, military might and cultural achievements.

China has waged a systematic campaign for several months to distort ancient history, behind which foreign media suggested it was fearing a ``greater Korea’’ that would spill over modern borders after the reunification of the peninsula.

In April, China’s Foreign Ministry deleted references to Koguryo from pages on Korean history on its Web site. The move, which followed a series of similar ones by other Chinese academic and media organizations, was interpreted as an attempt by China to claim the kingdom as part of its own history.

South Korea demanded that the references be restored, but China, instead of accepting the demand, removed the entire description of Korea’s history up until 1948, when South Korea was established.

Before the two countries worked out this week’s agreement, Seoul had sent a strong warning to Beijing over the issue, saying a crisis in relations could occur.

A North Korean magazine, in the meantime, indirectly criticized China’s bid to distort ancient Korean history by publishing a detailed history of another Korean kingdom, Parhae.

``Parhae was a sovereign country that succeeded Koguryo and had a major role in developing Korean history while existing for more than 200 years from 698 to 926,’’ the monthly Choson said in its August issue. ``The people of Koguryo formed Parhae and its territory was almost identical to that of Koguryo.’’

It was the latest in a series of reports in the North Korean news media on Koguryo and Parhae. The North recently increased the volume of such reports in an apparent protest against what it sees as China’s bid to distort early Korean history. However, it refrained from directly criticizing its staunch ally.

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QUOTE
The Forgotten Glory of Koguryo
Lee Wha Rang

Koguryo (高句麗), one of Korea's ancient three kingdoms, existed for 700 years ruled by 26 wise kings. All kings strove to better people's welfare and strengthen the military. Koguryo had to fight invaders from north and its citizens were well organized and train ed in the art of warfare. It developed unique culture and remarkably advanced educational, socio-political and military systems.

Koguryo murals are rich in color and tone. Women dancing, warriors in practice, birds in the sky, dragons, fish in rivers, beasts in forests, wind and clouds of the murals appear so real and fresh, one fears they may jump out of the canvass at any time.

Map: Koguryo occupied much of today's Manchuria and part of Siberia. Since its formation in 57 BC. Koguryo became the most powerful nation in the Far East until it was toppled by the Silla-China alliance in 668 AD.

Both North and South Korea want the United Nations to designate Koguryo archeological sites a world cultural heritage in the same class as the Egyptian pyramids and the Mayan temples. After so many years of neglect and plunder, the past glory of Koguryo is fast disappearing.

Koguryo relics are situated in North Korea and Manchuria. South Korea is off limit to these sites. North Korea has limited technical and financial resources to explore and preserve the sites in North Korea. China has little interest in preserving its former ruler of Manchuria.

Last year, thieves stole priceless Koguryo frescos from the Kilrim site in China. The thieves are still at large. China is building a dam, which will ruin several sites. Koguryo forts and structures are being pulled down and used as building materials by the local residents. Apartments stand where Koguryo castles used to stand. Ancient sites are cleared for factories. King Kwangkaeto's burial mound remains desecrated and unattended.

Koguryo was established in 37 BC from several warring tribes in Manchuria and North Korea. Its first king was King Dong-myong, In 342 AD, Koguryo was invaded by the Chinese Yen. The Chinese were driven out after years of intense fighting.

Photo: A Koguryo mural of hunting, circa 6th Century AD.

The power of Koguryo peaked under its 19th king, King Kwang-gae-to (廣開土大王). Until his epitaph was discovered in the 19th Century, some historians believed he was only a fictional character. He was born in 374 AD and became the king in 391 AD at the age of 18.

During his 22-year reign, he warred on and subdued neighboring states north and south. Koguryo' territory reached as far south as the Nakdong River and as far north as the Song-wha river (松花江) in North Manchuria. Under his rule, Buddhism flourished and the economy expanded.

In 372 AD, Koguryo officially adopted Buddhism as the state religion. Koguryo established a state academy to educate the nobility and compiled a state history consisting of 100 chapters before the introduction of Buddhism. State codes were promulgated to initiate a legal system to rule the people.

Koguryo dominated Silla, Baikje, Gaya, Bukyun, and Dong-Buyuh. In 400 AD, Koguryo helped Silla defeat and expel a Japanese invasion army. Four years later, Koguryo smashed an allied army of Baikje and Japan. The King died in 412 AD at the young age of 39 and his gigantic epitaph was erected in 414 AD in Jirin (China - 中國 吉林城集安市 太王鄕 大碑街).

Photo: The Generals' Village at Jip-ahn, the ancient capital of Koguryo. The pyramid is remarkably similar to those Inca/Maya in the Americas.

Until 385 AD, China was in chaos with numerous warlords fighting for hegemony and none of them was powerful enough to attack Koguryo, and Koguryo had friendly relations with the warlords, exchanging envoys and gifts. With the emergence of a unified China, Koguryo became under military forays by the Chinese and was forced to move its capital to Pyongyang, far away from the Chinese border.

In about 610 AD, Sui Emperor Yang-ti invaded Koguryo with more than one million men. In 612 AD, Koguryo General Ulchi Mundok held key fortresses against Yang-ti's army and navy for several months and destroyed the Sui troops in retreat. An ambush at Salsu (Ch'ongch'ongang River) killed all but 2,700 Sui troops out of 300,000 men sent to capture Pyongyang. In 613 AD, Emperor Yang-ti led an army to invade Koguryo but he failed again. In his absence, his political enemies rose up and Yang-ti was forced to return to China. The Koguryo army inflicted heavy losses on the retreating Chinese troops.

One of Yang-ti's top generals Hu Sizheng defected to Koguryo with critical intelligence on Yang-ti's future war plans. In 614 AD, Yang-ti assembled another invasion army but again internal rifts forced him to abandon his quest. Yang-ti's war on Koguryo weakened his Sui Empire and Sui fell to T'ang in 618 AD.

Photo: (right) A 1,500 year old wall painting of a woman in Koguryo a tomb in Nampo. Courtesy of Chosun Ilbo. (Below) Koguryo court attires for women. Courtesy of Traditional Court Clothing of Koguryo.

Koguryo stayed strong and united under the wise rule of King Yongyang, who died in 617 AD and King Yongnyu ascended the throne. He was incompetent and pro-Chinese, allowing T'ang troops to roam his kingdom on the pretext of recovering the remains of the Chinese troops killed in Koguryo. In 642 AD, General Yon Kaesomun toppled the king and installed the king' nephew as the new king, but Kaesomun ruled the nation.

Koguryo had advanced weapons of the era. Short Mongol-style bows with double arches were extensively used by the cavalry. Sharpshooters and special forces were equipped with crossbows, that were effective in taking out enemy commanders. Catapults were used to rein heavy rocks on the enemy. The Koguryo soldiers were good at throwing daggers at the enemy in close range fighting.

Photo: The Koguryo Queen attire based on the paintings found in Koguryo tombs. Photo courtesy of Chosun Ilbo.

Koguryo maintained a standing army of about 50,000 men that would grow to more than 300,000 men in times of war. General Ulchi Mundok (을지문덕 乙支文德) commanded an army of 300,000. Unlike most armies of the era in which soldiers were jack-of-all-trades, the Koguryo army was made of specialists: archers, crossbow-men, spear-man, catapult operators, horsemen, wall-climbers, and so on.

In 612 AD, a Su army of over one million men (about 1,113,800) invaded Koguryo. Genral Unchi Mundok deployed his outnumbered men along the southern bank of the Yalu river. He 'surrendered' to the enemy in order to spy on the enemy strength. After learning that the Su soldiers were tired and demoralized, the general escaped across the Yalu.

He feigned defeat after defeat in order to lure the enemy deep in the friendly territory to tire them and stretch the enemy supply lines. The enemy took the bait and came within 30 ri from Pyongyang. The enemy chief, Wu Jung-mu realized the futility of going any further and ordered his army to turn back and go home. This was exactly what General Ulchi Mundok expected and the Koguryo forces fell on the retreating Sue troops, inflicting heavy casualties.

T''ang's emperor T'ai-tsung tried to topple Koguryo in 644 AD, 648 AD and 655 AD - all repulsed by Koguryo. The years of constant warfare eventually brought down the once mighty Koguryo. Ironically, the end came when a fellow Korean state Silla joined up with T'ang in 668 AD and invaded from south while T'ang moved in from north. This two-front war was too much for Koguryo.

In 660 AD, Baikje fell to Silla and in the following year, Pyongyang fell to T'ang invaders. However, General Yon Kaesomun attacked T'ang's supply lines and forced the T'ang army to retreat. The general died in 666 AD and his three sons began to fight for succession. In 668 AD, the Tang army returned and occupied Pyongyang. After the fall of the capital, the remnants of the defeated Koguryo army fought on until 673 AD, when King Bojang died - Koguryo was no more.

Photo: General Ulchi Munduk. Photo courtesy of Chosun Ilbo.

Koguryo officials and 200,000 prisoners were taken to China and Koguryo's territory was annexed to T'ang. Many of the Korean prisoners served T'ang emperors well. For example, Ko Sagye, a famous Koguryo general, joined the T'ang army. Hi s son Ko Son-ji rose to a high rank and led a T'ang army to subdue Tashkent in the mid-eighth century and introduced the art of paper-making to the Arabs.

In 674 AD, T'ang invaded its former ally Silla. Silla defeated the T'ang army and freed Koguryo capital Pyongyang. In 735 AD, Silla regained the Koguryo territory south of Taedonggang. Subsequent Korean kings regained the lost territory south of Yalu and Tumen.

The last king of Koryo attempted to invade Manchuria to regain the rest of Koguryo territory. Unfortunately, the general in charge, Yi Sung Gye, mounted a coup instead and founded the Chosun (Yi) Dynasty.

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China - Sui Dynasty

In 581 AD, a general named Wen Ti from northwest China succeeded in conquering the other two kingdoms and establishing a new dynasty in China, with emperors who ruled all of China like the Ch'in and the Han. This was the Sui Dynasty. Wen Ti made himself popular by trying to make the government better than it was during the Three Kingdoms. Wen Ti ordered that poor people in the countryside should pay less taxes than they had before. And he sent men around to all the provinces to count how many people there were and how much land and money each of them had (this is called a census) so that the government would know how much taxes that province should pay. He ordered that every man should get a certain amount of land to farm. When the man turned 60 and was too old to farm, he would stop paying taxes and give back some of the land, and pass on the rest to his sons.

Wen Ti also decided to go back to the Han Dynasty way of picking his government officials through the university and the great examinations, to find out who were the smartest and best educated men (Women were not allowed to be government officials at this time).

Wu Ti died while he was still not old. He may have been killed by his son, Yang Ti, who wanted to be the emperor himself. In any case Yang Ti did become the next Sui emperor. Yang Ti wanted to be a great emperor, so he began a lot of important projects. Yang Ti's best project was one where people dug a Grand Canal which connected the Yellow River with the Huai and Yangtze Rivers and made it much easier to get from northern to southern China and back again.

But Yang Ti's worst project was that he attacked Korea to try to take it over. He got together a great army of over a million men to invade Korea, but his great army was defeated and had to run away. The army generals were angry about this and killed Yang Ti. That was the end of the Sui Dynasty.

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Ulji Moonduk
It is not known exactly when or where this illustrious man was born, and unfortunately it is also not known exactly when he died. The best that can be said is that he was born in the mid-6th century and died in the early 7th century, sometime after 618. He was born and raised in the kingdom of Goguryeo, in a turbulent era of Korean history. It was a powerful and warlike kingdom, constantly warring with its neighbours, Silla to the southeast and Baekje to the southwest. The balance of power was roughly equal between the three kingdoms, however, and it took the injection of an outside influence to tip the balance. This influence was supplied by the kingdoms’ much larger western neighbor, China. In 589 China had been united under the Sui Dynasty, and this new dynasty, hungry for power, would be the deciding factor in the struggles between Baekje, Goguryeo and Silla. This was the background for Ulji Mundok as he grew up.
He was an educated man, and eventually became a Minister of Goguryeo, with skills in both the political and military sciences. He was called upon to render service as a military leader, however, when the very existance of the kingdom became threatened by alliances between its rival neighbors.

The Sui Dynasty was suspicious of Goguryeo and saw its aggressive ways as threatening, so, in 612, Sui Emperor Yang Di decided to subdue this dangerous neighbour and prepared to attack. He mustered an army of over one million men and personally led them against Goguryeo. They quickly overran Goguryeo outposts, camped on the banks of the Liao River and prepared to bridge it. Ulji Mundok was called upon to assist in the defence of the nation, and so he prepared to meet the superior Sui forces with a strategy of false retreat, deception and attack.

After the Sui forces crossed the Liao River, a small contingent was sent to attack the Goguryeo city of Liaotung, but General Ulji sent his forces to meet them there and drove them out. As the rainy season progressed, the Sui forces tried other probing attacks, but these were not really of any significance, as they were mainly biding their time until the rainy season passed.

When the rains stopped, Yang Di moved his forces to the banks of the Yalu River in northwestern Korea and prepared for a major assault. General Ulji visited the Chinese camp under the pretense of surrender in an attempt to discover any Sui weaknesses. Emperor Yang Di listened to General Ulji and allowed him to leave the camp, but shortly after changed his mind and set out after him. But it was too late – the general had discovered what he needed to defeat the force. He had learned that the Sui forces were short of provisions and had overstretched their supply lines, and so he decided to pursue a strategy of gradual retreat, hoping to lure his enemy deeper and deeper into hostile territory. He drew the Sui on and fought a kind of guerrilla warfare, picking when and where he fought and allowing the Sui forces to feel as though victory was close at hand, all the while luring them deeper into his trap. A Sui advance force of over 300,000 men was sent to take the city of Pyongyang. General Ulji continued to lure them closer and closer to the city, but led them to a strategic point where he could strike. His forces attacked from all sides, driving the Sui troops back in utter confusion. His troops pursued the retreating army, slaughtering them almost at will, so that it is said that only 2,700 troops successfully made it back to the main body of forces. This was the great battle of Salsu, and it has come to be known as one of the most glorious military triumphs in Korea's national history. Following this defeat, winter began to set in and the Sui forces, short on provisions, were forced to return home.

The Sui Dynasty was beginning to disintegrate and Yang Di decided that he urgently needed to expand his empire in order to regain power, but the two more desperate attacks on Goguryeo by Yang Di following spring met with similar disaster, and eventually internal rebellion in China forced the Sui to give up its desires on Goguryeo. By 618, the relatively short-lived Sui Dynasty was replaced by the Tang Dynasty. General Ulji Mundok's strategy and leadership had saved Goguryeo from the Chinese.

Probably the most distinguished military leader of the Goguryeo period and one of the most well-known generals in Korean history, General Ulji Mundok's leadership and tactical acumen was the decisive factor in saving Goguryeo from destruction at the hands of the invading Chinese Sui Dynasty. He faced forces of far superior numbers and not only turned them back but was able to pursue and destroy them with such vigor that they were not able nor inclined to return. His life was filled with enough spectacular success to earn him a permanent place among Korea's most remembered. He is still celebrated as a great Korean hero, and a main street in downtown Seoul, Ulji-ro, is named after him.

*

mindtransformation
QUOTE (ksurf3rgrl @ Nov 13 2004, 01:21 PM)
Thanks to Igoo..

QUOTE
China drops claims to ancient Korean kingdom

IDENTITY: An ancient state which Koreans say was founded by their ancestors is now Chinese territory, but China's claims to it have angered Koreans

AFP , SEOUL
Wednesday, Aug 25, 2004,Page 5
South Korea and China have settled a row over an ancient kingdom that disappeared more than 1,000 years ago, officials said yesterday, mending a rift in the two countries' flourishing ties.

China agreed not to lay claim to the state of Koguryo, which straddled modern Manchuria from 57BC to 668AD, after both countries' officials reached a "verbal understanding," South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon said.

Clash of cultures

Koreans believe their ancestors founded the kingdom, which is rich in archeological relics -- including priceless paintings on the murals of burial sites -- and regard it as part of their national identity.

But they were outraged earlier this year when a state-funded Chinese history project claimed that Koguryo was always part of China.

"China is mindful of the fact that the Koguryo question has emerged as a serious pending issue between the two countries," Ban said of the agreement, which was not put in writing.

The vaguely worded "understanding" did not specifically mention China's promise not to claim the kingdom as its history, but the two sides agreed to take it as meaning just that, another South Korean foreign ministry official said.

It also called for efforts to prevent the dispute from turning into a major political issue and to organize academic exchanges on the matter, the official said.

China, however, did not accept Seoul's demand that Beijing's foreign ministry restore deleted references to Koguryo from its Web site on Korean history.

In its heyday, Koguryo -- which is also known as Koryo, the origin of the name Korea -- encompassed much of what is now the border between China and North Korea.

It vanished after being conquered by China's Tang dynasty.

South Korean politicians were up in arms over the row, accusing the Chinese government of attempting to rob Koreans of one of the gems of their cultural heritage.

China's news media had also waded into the dispute, claiming that Koguryo was a provincial government of China under the central authority of Beijing.

However, the two sides have now agreed to make joint efforts to prevent the historical row undermining ties which have been developing fast since the establishment of diplomatic relations in 1992.

China was particularly concerned by the prospect of a reunified North and South Korea making claims on the area formerly covered by the ancient nation.

"Although this is not included in the points of understanding, China showed acute reactions to claims by some Korean politicians and scholars that the Chinese far-eastern provinces [that used to be Koguryo territory] should be returned to Korea," Ban said.

"China called for the [South Korean] government to restrain them," he added.

North Korea, which lovingly maintains Koguryo tombs and relics on its territory, has so far remained silent on the dispute with China, a key ally of the Stalinist state.

united in anger

The dispute is one of the few issues to unite ruling and opposition parties in South Korea at a time of deep divisions on key issues including North Korea, the lackluster economy and the US-led war in Iraq.

The accord on Monday came after China's newly appointed vice minister, Wu Dawei, flew to Seoul on Sunday for a series of meetings with South Korean officials.

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China, Korea Dispute Ancient Kingdom

quote:

SEOUL, South Korea - The ancient kingdom of Koguryo, famed for its mighty castles and horseback warriors, has sprung back to life in a "war of history" between South Korea and China that carries alarming modern-day implications.

The dispute has raised diplomatic hackles and symbolizes what many say are rival geopolitical designs on Northeast Asia, a region rich in conflict and currently riled over North Korea 's nuclear weapons programs.

The wrangling could also influence the way future borders are drawn between two of Asia's biggest economic powers should the region become unstable.

Koguryo ruled much of Korea and Manchuria, now China, until it vanished from maps 1,300 years ago. It has been dragged into the headlines by a Beijing-backed study that deems the kingdom to be an integral part of China.

Not so, South Korean Foreign Minister Ban Ki-moon insisted last week.

"It is an indisputable historical fact that Koguryo is the root of the Korean nation and an inseparable part of our history," he said. "We will sternly and confidently deal with any claims or arguments harming the legitimacy of our rights."

Reigning from 37 B.C. to A.D. 668 and spreading Buddhism throughout the region, the Koguryo kingdom straddled what is now North Korea and part of South Korea and the northeastern Chinese region of Manchuria.

South Koreans see Koguryo as the origin of their nation and revere its warrior kings as ancestors from a Golden Age. Koguryo is the root of the word "Korea."

Two years ago, Beijing's Chinese Academy of Social Sciences launched the Northeast Asia Project to study the history of China's northeastern provinces, which cover much of ancient Koguryo and are home to large ethnic Korean communities.

Chinese scholars say Koguryo tribes were among the many minorities absorbed into greater China, and that since about two-thirds of Koguryo lies within today's China, it is key to China's history. They further enraged scholars from both South and North Korea by releasing papers claiming Koguryo was a vassal kingdom that sought Chinese sanction for its leaders and paid tribute.

Outraged South Koreans began a 10-million signature petition drive to condemn "China's distortion of history," while their government backed a parallel academic study to counter China's claims.

Korean academics say Koguryo was in fact a fiercely independent state that often clashed with China until its defeat by China and a regional ally.

Neither government wants to be dragged into what Foreign Minister Ban calls a "sensitive issue that could trigger public sentiments in both countries." But neither shows signs of backing down.

Academics say Koguryo has future implications too. China fears a scenario in which impoverished North Korea collapses, releasing a flood of refugees — and instability — in its backyard and forcing it to establish a new frontier facing a unified pro-U.S. Korea.

"China's Northeast Asian Project is not just about Koguryo but aims at asserting its historical claims to Manchuria and even part of the Korean peninsula in case the region turns unstable," says Ahn Byung-woo, a historian at South Korea's Hanshin University.

The controversy echoes other historical disputes in Northeast Asia, where countries with vibrant economic ties still grapple with violent pasts. South Korea and Japan dispute a set of islets. China and the two Koreas accuse Japan of failing to atone for its brutal colonial past.

Koguryo is even triggering a rare alignment between communist North Korea and the capitalist South. North Korea preaches "the Korean nation was at its prime during the time of Koguryo" and uses the Koguryo legacy to whip up militaristic fervor against foreign powers, especially the United States.

Textbooks in both Koreas say Koguryo tribes are more closely related to today's Koreans than mainstream Chinese, and that their customs, including sleeping on heated floors and eating fermented bean paste, are better preserved in Korea.

South Korea is backing the North's bid to have UNESCO designate its Koguryo relics as a World Heritage Site. China seeks the same honor for Koguryo monuments, fortresses and other ruins in its territories.

China is North Korea's main ally, but that didn't stop Pyongyang's state-run newspaper Rodong Sinmun from accusing China of "manipulating history for its own interest."

It likened Chinese claim on Koguryo to "stealing water from another man's rice paddy."

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Records Contradict China's Claims Over Koguryo


The following is the second in a series of articles on China’s misrepresentations of the history of the ancient kingdom of Koguryo (37 B.C.-A.D. 668) _ ED.
By Choi Kwang-shik
Professor of Korea University

In China’s Northeast Asia Project, research into ancient Korean history is concentrated on the people and culture of Koguryo and Palhae (698-926), as well as old Choson, but with special attention given to the kingdom of Koguryo.

South Korea is also paying particular attention to the fact that Koguryo is being treated as just another of ancient China’s many regional powers. Many arguments and opinions concerning the status of Koguryo have been voiced in the past, but with the national Northeast Asia Project, Koguryo has officially been declared a regional territory of ancient China.

Several reasons have been proposed by China for this assertion, but when analyzed carefully, each is hard to accept. Some include:

_ Koguryo was a kingdom established by people within China’s territory. Though its capital moved several times during the kingdom’s existence, it never moved outside the influence of the Han Chinese commanderies (located in an area of the Korean peninsula at one point colonized by the Han people).

_ Koguryo maintained a sovereign relationship with the central powers within ancient China and did not try to sever the relationship.

_ After the kingdom’s collapse, its core body was absorbed into the Han Chinese.

With these arguments, China asserts that historically Koguryo was a regional power within ancient China, and that a distinction should be made between Koguryo and the people of Koryo (918-1392), another kingdom of ancient Korea.

China also argues that the Koguryo lineage and the Koryo lineage are not blood-related, their kings having different surnames and 250 years separating the two kingdoms. Therefore, a historical link between the two kingdoms does not exist, the argument continues.

However, even in Chinese history books, the people of Koguryo were recorded as being part of the Yemaek tribe, along with the people of Paekje (another ancient Korean kingdom).

Also, China points to ancient documents such as those citing the taxes and gifts given to central Chinese authorities by Koguryo in order to establish the relationship of subject and ruler between Koguryo and ancient China.

However, such gestures were quite common in East Asia during that period, and can thus be considered purely diplomatic and formal.

China asserts that Koguryo’s wars with the Sui and Tang empires can be considered battles between central and regional powers within ancient China. However, Koguryo's successful resistance of the invasion by the Sui Dynasty (589-618), a conflict that came as a prelude to the collapse of the dynasty, should be seen as war between independent states.

Also, it is possible that some of Koguryo’s people, along with the people of Silla, were absorbed by the Tang empire. However, most stayed within the region of Koguryo to establish the kingdom of Palhae.

China may claim there is no connection between the kingdoms of Koguryo and Koryo, but the name Koryo was chosen by the latter kingdom due to the acknowledgement of a connection. If it is argued that there is no connection in the lineage of the rulers of the two kingdoms due to the difference in surnames, then it must also be said that there is no connection in ancient China either, as the rulers alternated between people of the Han and people of other northern groups.

Historical Reality of Koguryo

Mention of Koguryo can of course be found in the Chinese historical records, particularly in the famous ``The Annals of the Three Kingdoms,’’ which concerns the Chinese kingdoms of Wei, Shu and Wu. In the Book of Wei in the ``The Annals’’, there are sections dealing with the ancient kingdoms of Ohwan and Sonbi, as well as Tongi, a name used by the Chinese for groups and tribes residing east of their territory (and therefore not part of China). The book records Koguryo not as part of the main history of the three kingdoms _ ie. China _ but as part of Tongi.

If one sees ``The Annals’’ as providing evidence that Koguryo was part of Chinese history, then not only Ohhwan, Sonbi and Tongi, but all other barbarians residing near China, and even the people of Japan, have to be considered part of China.

Also in ``The Annals,’’ there is mention of a ritual for the heavens that was performed not only by the people of Koguryo, but also by those belonging to other kingdoms and groups existing outside China, including Puyo, Ye, Samhan and Mahan. Though the names and dates of these heavenly rituals differ from group to group, their contents were the same.

However, China believed that only the Chinese emperor could perform such rituals for the heavens. If China considered Koguryo as part of its empire, then it would not have allowed it to perform the ritual. Therefore, the fact that Koguryo, Puyo, Mahan and others are all recorded as holding these rituals suggests that China saw them as separate and independent states.

There is similar evidence in Korea as well. The inscription on Kwanggaetowang Nungbi (Monument to King Kwanggaeto, a Koguryo king) reads ``Chonje Jisa,'' which means ``Son of the Heavenly Emperor,'' while Moduru Myojimyong (Tombstone of the High Official Moduru) has an inscription reading ``Ilwol Jija,'' or ``Son of the Sun and the Moon.'' Again, such inscriptions would have been reserved only for the Chinese emperor and therefore not used by the people of Koguryo if they had truly been subject to central Chinese authority.

The 12th century Korean historian Kim Pu-sik's famous ``Samguk Sagi (The History of the Three Kingdoms),'' a record of the three kingdoms on the Korean pensinsula _ Koguryo, Paekje and Silla _ provides further evidence. In the fifty-volume work, 12 volumes devoted to Koguryo are called the Koguryo Pongi. ``Pongi’’ is a term reserved for nations independent of China. Subjects of China would have used the word ``sega.’’

Contemporary Chinese middle school textbooks also refer to Koguryo as a nation existing outside the Sui empire, which ruled Chinese territory during the time of Koguryo. In books detailing world history used by modern Chinese students, Koguryo is referred to as being part of Korean history and not Chinese history.

There are also differences in the positions China and Korea take on Palhae, the kingdom that came after Koguryo, which may be a source of future arguments concerning Koguryo. We must be wary of the continuation of the Northeast Asia Project, as its research results may be reflected in history textbooks published in China. If we are not careful, there may come a time when Koguryo is referred to as a part of Chinese history.

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QUOTE
What Is Behind China’s Attempt to Distort the Past?


The following is the first in a series of articles on China’s distortion of the history of the ancient Korean kingdom of Koguryo. _ ED.
By Choi Kwang-shik
Professor of Korea University

In February 2002, China officially established the Northeast Asia Project, which was actually in the works for the past five years. This Northeast Asia Project, organized through the China Border Land, which is affiliated with the state-run China Academy of Social Sciences, is one that has significant national importance due to its dealing of history and contemporary problems in China’s northeastern region in an academic manner.

However, while working on this Northeast Asia Project, the Chinese government is distorting the history of the kingdoms of Koguryo (B.C. 37-A.D. 668) and Palhae (698-926), as well as Korea’s primitive ancestors, all of which are connected to Korean ancient and contemporary history. The South Korean government has protested over this and asked the Chinese to stop their historical distortions.

China’s distortion of history can be traced back to 1980, when the country began a ``one people’’ policy, a reform measure that attempted to consolidate all of China’s people into one, and began to show much interest in the smaller ethnic and minority groups within its borders. Especially, with the changing of power in Eastern Europe in 1989 and the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, China showed more concern over regional groups that resided close to the borders.

The beginning of friendly relations between South Korea and China in 1992 brought even more interest to China’s northeastern regions. In a meeting in 1993, academics from China and North Korea got into intense arguments over the issue.

Also, as North Korean defectors began crossing into China from the mid-1990s onwards, China became more serious about setting up a policy to deal with the political situation concerning the northeastern regions, which borders North Korea.

It was around this point that research institutes in China’s northeastern region began to establish a project to deal with the area’s history, geography and people. China began to deal with the Koguryo Kingdom as it would any of its minority groups and released papers that attempted to absorb Koguryo history into Chinese history.

However, when the South Korean National Assembly established in 2001 a special law to deal with ethnic Koreans residing in China, the Chinese government began creating its own countermeasure regarding the descendents of ancient Korea and the potential problems arising from a unification of Korean peninsula.

When North Korea applied in 2001 to UNESCO to have its Koguryo remains declared a World Heritage site, the Chinese government seems to have begun the so-called Northeast Asia Project. The reason was that if North Korea’s Koguryo sites were given World Heritage status, then China would have a difficult time justifying its own claims over Koguryo history.

So, China successfully postponed North Korea’s application for its Koguryo sites to UNESCO, and in 2003, applied its own Koguryo site to be declared a World Heritage.

Seen in long term, China’s moves can be seen as a proactive measure to deal with a potential border dispute that could arise if South and North Korea were to be unified. Or else, it is a preemptive act in preparation for possible power changes in North Korea by fortifying its position in the northeastern region.

Also, China might wish to prevent any confusion of identity that ethnic Koreans in China might feel due to a future unification of the Koreas.

Regardless, all the possible reasons share a common trait _ that the distortion of history by China cannot be seen as simply an academic issue, but that it is also related to territorial as well as political problems.

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QUOTE
President Roh Regrets Koguryo Row


By Ryu Jin
Staff Reporter
President Roh Moo-hyun expressed ``strong regret’’ over China’s misrepresentation of the history of the ancient kingdom of Koguryo, Chong Wa Dae spokesman Kim Jong-min said Friday.

``It is very regrettable that the issue has been a bone of contention between the two countries in recent days,’’ Roh was quoted as saying during his meeting with Jia Qinglin, a high-level Chinese official, at Chong Wa Dae.

Roh also urged China to take quick and appropriate measures to address the issue, Kim explained.

Roh’s remarks came in response to Chinese President Hu Jintao’s suggestion, delivered to him by the visiting Chinese official, that the two countries cooperate closely to resolve the recent diplomatic row.

Hu told Roh through Jia that the history dispute over Koguryo would be solved properly if both sides deal with it with sincerity and respect.

``The relationship between China and South Korea has recently been affected to a certain degree by the Koguryo issue,’’ Hu said in a verbal message delivered by the China’s No. 4 official.

``We will be able to properly address each other’s concerns, with ample wisdom, if we respect each other and act with regard for long-term and strategic points of view,’’ the Chinese head of state was quoted as saying.

A close confidant to former Chinese president Jiang Zemin, Jia flew into Seoul on Thursday at the invitation of National Assembly Speaker Kim One-ki. Jia heads the National Committee of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference, a senate-like body in the world’s most populous country.

In preparation for Jia’s Seoul visit, China dispatched its vice foreign minister, Wu Dawei, here earlier this week to reach a five-point ``verbal understanding’’ on the Koguryo problem. In the loosely worded agreement, China promised that it would no longer attempt to misrepresent the history of Koguryo at the government level.

Most Koreans believe Koguryo, a kingdom of hunting tribes that ruled much of modern day North Korea and Chinese Manchuria from 37 B.C. to A.D. 668, is an essential part of their history. Both South and North Koreans take pride in the legacy of Koguryo, especially its independent spirit, military might and cultural achievements.

China has waged a systematic campaign for several months to distort ancient history, behind which foreign media suggested it was fearing a ``greater Korea’’ that would spill over modern borders after the reunification of the peninsula.

In April, China’s Foreign Ministry deleted references to Koguryo from pages on Korean history on its Web site. The move, which followed a series of similar ones by other Chinese academic and media organizations, was interpreted as an attempt by China to claim the kingdom as part of its own history.

South Korea demanded that the references be restored, but China, instead of accepting the demand, removed the entire description of Korea’s history up until 1948, when South Korea was established.

Before the two countries worked out this week’s agreement, Seoul had sent a strong warning to Beijing over the issue, saying a crisis in relations could occur.

A North Korean magazine, in the meantime, indirectly criticized China’s bid to distort ancient Korean history by publishing a detailed history of another Korean kingdom, Parhae.

``Parhae was a sovereign country that succeeded Koguryo and had a major role in developing Korean history while existing for more than 200 years from 698 to 926,’’ the monthly Choson said in its August issue. ``The people of Koguryo formed Parhae and its territory was almost identical to that of Koguryo.’’

It was the latest in a series of reports in the North Korean news media on Koguryo and Parhae. The North recently increased the volume of such reports in an apparent protest against what it sees as China’s bid to distort early Korean history. However, it refrained from directly criticizing its staunch ally.

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QUOTE
The Forgotten Glory of Koguryo
Lee Wha Rang

Koguryo (高句麗), one of Korea's ancient three kingdoms, existed for 700 years ruled by 26 wise kings. All kings strove to better people's welfare and strengthen the military. Koguryo had to fight invaders from north and its citizens were well organized and train ed in the art of warfare. It developed unique culture and remarkably advanced educational, socio-political and military systems.

Koguryo murals are rich in color and tone. Women dancing, warriors in practice, birds in the sky, dragons, fish in rivers, beasts in forests, wind and clouds of the murals appear so real and fresh, one fears they may jump out of the canvass at any time.

Map: Koguryo occupied much of today's Manchuria and part of Siberia. Since its formation in 57 BC. Koguryo became the most powerful nation in the Far East until it was toppled by the Silla-China alliance in 668 AD.

Both North and South Korea want the United Nations to designate Koguryo archeological sites a world cultural heritage in the same class as the Egyptian pyramids and the Mayan temples. After so many years of neglect and plunder, the past glory of Koguryo is fast disappearing.

Koguryo relics are situated in North Korea and Manchuria. South Korea is off limit to these sites. North Korea has limited technical and financial resources to explore and preserve the sites in North Korea. China has little interest in preserving its former ruler of Manchuria.

Last year, thieves stole priceless Koguryo frescos from the Kilrim site in China. The thieves are still at large. China is building a dam, which will ruin several sites. Koguryo forts and structures are being pulled down and used as building materials by the local residents. Apartments stand where Koguryo castles used to stand. Ancient sites are cleared for factories. King Kwangkaeto's burial mound remains desecrated and unattended.

Koguryo was established in 37 BC from several warring tribes in Manchuria and North Korea. Its first king was King Dong-myong, In 342 AD, Koguryo was invaded by the Chinese Yen. The Chinese were driven out after years of intense fighting.

Photo: A Koguryo mural of hunting, circa 6th Century AD.

The power of Koguryo peaked under its 19th king, King Kwang-gae-to (廣開土大王). Until his epitaph was discovered in the 19th Century, some historians believed he was only a fictional character. He was born in 374 AD and became the king in 391 AD at the age of 18.

During his 22-year reign, he warred on and subdued neighboring states north and south. Koguryo' territory reached as far south as the Nakdong River and as far north as the Song-wha river (松花江) in North Manchuria. Under his rule, Buddhism flourished and the economy expanded.

In 372 AD, Koguryo officially adopted Buddhism as the state religion. Koguryo established a state academy to educate the nobility and compiled a state history consisting of 100 chapters before the introduction of Buddhism. State codes were promulgated to initiate a legal system to rule the people.

Koguryo dominated Silla, Baikje, Gaya, Bukyun, and Dong-Buyuh. In 400 AD, Koguryo helped Silla defeat and expel a Japanese invasion army. Four years later, Koguryo smashed an allied army of Baikje and Japan. The King died in 412 AD at the young age of 39 and his gigantic epitaph was erected in 414 AD in Jirin (China - 中國 吉林城集安市 太王鄕 大碑街).

Photo: The Generals' Village at Jip-ahn, the ancient capital of Koguryo. The pyramid is remarkably similar to those Inca/Maya in the Americas.

Until 385 AD, China was in chaos with numerous warlords fighting for hegemony and none of them was powerful enough to attack Koguryo, and Koguryo had friendly relations with the warlords, exchanging envoys and gifts. With the emergence of a unified China, Koguryo became under military forays by the Chinese and was forced to move its capital to Pyongyang, far away from the Chinese border.

In about 610 AD, Sui Emperor Yang-ti invaded Koguryo with more than one million men. In 612 AD, Koguryo General Ulchi Mundok held key fortresses against Yang-ti's army and navy for several months and destroyed the Sui troops in retreat. An ambush at Salsu (Ch'ongch'ongang River) killed all but 2,700 Sui troops out of 300,000 men sent to capture Pyongyang. In 613 AD, Emperor Yang-ti led an army to invade Koguryo but he failed again. In his absence, his political enemies rose up and Yang-ti was forced to return to China. The Koguryo army inflicted heavy losses on the retreating Chinese troops.

One of Yang-ti's top generals Hu Sizheng defected to Koguryo with critical intelligence on Yang-ti's future war plans. In 614 AD, Yang-ti assembled another invasion army but again internal rifts forced him to abandon his quest. Yang-ti's war on Koguryo weakened his Sui Empire and Sui fell to T'ang in 618 AD.

Photo: (right) A 1,500 year old wall painting of a woman in Koguryo a tomb in Nampo. Courtesy of Chosun Ilbo. (Below) Koguryo court attires for women. Courtesy of Traditional Court Clothing of Koguryo.

Koguryo stayed strong and united under the wise rule of King Yongyang, who died in 617 AD and King Yongnyu ascended the throne. He was incompetent and pro-Chinese, allowing T'ang troops to roam his kingdom on the pretext of recovering the remains of the Chinese troops killed in Koguryo. In 642 AD, General Yon Kaesomun toppled the king and installed the king' nephew as the new king, but Kaesomun ruled the nation.

Koguryo had advanced weapons of the era. Short Mongol-style bows with double arches were extensively used by the cavalry. Sharpshooters and special forces were equipped with crossbows, that were effective in taking out enemy commanders. Catapults were used to rein heavy rocks on the enemy. The Koguryo soldiers were good at throwing daggers at the enemy in close range fighting.

Photo: The Koguryo Queen attire based on the paintings found in Koguryo tombs. Photo courtesy of Chosun Ilbo.

Koguryo maintained a standing army of about 50,000 men that would grow to more than 300,000 men in times of war. General Ulchi Mundok (을지문덕 乙支文德) commanded an army of 300,000. Unlike most armies of the era in which soldiers were jack-of-all-trades, the Koguryo army was made of specialists: archers, crossbow-men, spear-man, catapult operators, horsemen, wall-climbers, and so on.

In 612 AD, a Su army of over one million men (about 1,113,800) invaded Koguryo. Genral Unchi Mundok deployed his outnumbered men along the southern bank of the Yalu river. He 'surrendered' to the enemy in order to spy on the enemy strength. After learning that the Su soldiers were tired and demoralized, the general escaped across the Yalu.

He feigned defeat after defeat in order to lure the enemy deep in the friendly territory to tire them and stretch the enemy supply lines. The enemy took the bait and came within 30 ri from Pyongyang. The enemy chief, Wu Jung-mu realized the futility of going any further and ordered his army to turn back and go home. This was exactly what General Ulchi Mundok expected and the Koguryo forces fell on the retreating Sue troops, inflicting heavy casualties.

T''ang's emperor T'ai-tsung tried to topple Koguryo in 644 AD, 648 AD and 655 AD - all repulsed by Koguryo. The years of constant warfare eventually brought down the once mighty Koguryo. Ironically, the end came when a fellow Korean state Silla joined up with T'ang in 668 AD and invaded from south while T'ang moved in from north. This two-front war was too much for Koguryo.

In 660 AD, Baikje fell to Silla and in the following year, Pyongyang fell to T'ang invaders. However, General Yon Kaesomun attacked T'ang's supply lines and forced the T'ang army to retreat. The general died in 666 AD and his three sons began to fight for succession. In 668 AD, the Tang army returned and occupied Pyongyang. After the fall of the capital, the remnants of the defeated Koguryo army fought on until 673 AD, when King Bojang died - Koguryo was no more.

Photo: General Ulchi Munduk. Photo courtesy of Chosun Ilbo.

Koguryo officials and 200,000 prisoners were taken to China and Koguryo's territory was annexed to T'ang. Many of the Korean prisoners served T'ang emperors well. For example, Ko Sagye, a famous Koguryo general, joined the T'ang army. Hi s son Ko Son-ji rose to a high rank and led a T'ang army to subdue Tashkent in the mid-eighth century and introduced the art of paper-making to the Arabs.

In 674 AD, T'ang invaded its former ally Silla. Silla defeated the T'ang army and freed Koguryo capital Pyongyang. In 735 AD, Silla regained the Koguryo territory south of Taedonggang. Subsequent Korean kings regained the lost territory south of Yalu and Tumen.

The last king of Koryo attempted to invade Manchuria to regain the rest of Koguryo territory. Unfortunately, the general in charge, Yi Sung Gye, mounted a coup instead and founded the Chosun (Yi) Dynasty.

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QUOTE
China - Sui Dynasty

In 581 AD, a general named Wen Ti from northwest China succeeded in conquering the other two kingdoms and establishing a new dynasty in China, with emperors who ruled all of China like the Ch'in and the Han. This was the Sui Dynasty. Wen Ti made himself popular by trying to make the government better than it was during the Three Kingdoms. Wen Ti ordered that poor people in the countryside should pay less taxes than they had before. And he sent men around to all the provinces to count how many people there were and how much land and money each of them had (this is called a census) so that the government would know how much taxes that province should pay. He ordered that every man should get a certain amount of land to farm. When the man turned 60 and was too old to farm, he would stop paying taxes and give back some of the land, and pass on the rest to his sons.

Wen Ti also decided to go back to the Han Dynasty way of picking his government officials through the university and the great examinations, to find out who were the smartest and best educated men (Women were not allowed to be government officials at this time).

Wu Ti died while he was still not old. He may have been killed by his son, Yang Ti, who wanted to be the emperor himself. In any case Yang Ti did become the next Sui emperor. Yang Ti wanted to be a great emperor, so he began a lot of important projects. Yang Ti's best project was one where people dug a Grand Canal which connected the Yellow River with the Huai and Yangtze Rivers and made it much easier to get from northern to southern China and back again.

But Yang Ti's worst project was that he attacked Korea to try to take it over. He got together a great army of over a million men to invade Korea, but his great army was defeated and had to run away. The army generals were angry about this and killed Yang Ti. That was the end of the Sui Dynasty.

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QUOTE
Ulji Moonduk
It is not known exactly when or where this illustrious man was born, and unfortunately it is also not known exactly when he died. The best that can be said is that he was born in the mid-6th century and died in the early 7th century, sometime after 618. He was born and raised in the kingdom of Goguryeo, in a turbulent era of Korean history. It was a powerful and warlike kingdom, constantly warring with its neighbours, Silla to the southeast and Baekje to the southwest. The balance of power was roughly equal between the three kingdoms, however, and it took the injection of an outside influence to tip the balance. This influence was supplied by the kingdoms’ much larger western neighbor, China. In 589 China had been united under the Sui Dynasty, and this new dynasty, hungry for power, would be the deciding factor in the struggles between Baekje, Goguryeo and Silla. This was the background for Ulji Mundok as he grew up.
He was an educated man, and eventually became a Minister of Goguryeo, with skills in both the political and military sciences. He was called upon to render service as a military leader, however, when the very existance of the kingdom became threatened by alliances between its rival neighbors.

The Sui Dynasty was suspicious of Goguryeo and saw its aggressive ways as threatening, so, in 612, Sui Emperor Yang Di decided to subdue this dangerous neighbour and prepared to attack. He mustered an army of over one million men and personally led them against Goguryeo. They quickly overran Goguryeo outposts, camped on the banks of the Liao River and prepared to bridge it. Ulji Mundok was called upon to assist in the defence of the nation, and so he prepared to meet the superior Sui forces with a strategy of false retreat, deception and attack.

After the Sui forces crossed the Liao River, a small contingent was sent to attack the Goguryeo city of Liaotung, but General Ulji sent his forces to meet them there and drove them out. As the rainy season progressed, the Sui forces tried other probing attacks, but these were not really of any significance, as they were mainly biding their time until the rainy season passed.

When the rains stopped, Yang Di moved his forces to the banks of the Yalu River in northwestern Korea and prepared for a major assault. General Ulji visited the Chinese camp under the pretense of surrender in an attempt to discover any Sui weaknesses. Emperor Yang Di listened to General Ulji and allowed him to leave the camp, but shortly after changed his mind and set out after him. But it was too late – the general had discovered what he needed to defeat the force. He had learned that the Sui forces were short of provisions and had overstretched their supply lines, and so he decided to pursue a strategy of gradual retreat, hoping to lure his enemy deeper and deeper into hostile territory. He drew the Sui on and fought a kind of guerrilla warfare, picking when and where he fought and allowing the Sui forces to feel as though victory was close at hand, all the while luring them deeper into his trap. A Sui advance force of over 300,000 men was sent to take the city of Pyongyang. General Ulji continued to lure them closer and closer to the city, but led them to a strategic point where he could strike. His forces attacked from all sides, driving the Sui troops back in utter confusion. His troops pursued the retreating army, slaughtering them almost at will, so that it is said that only 2,700 troops successfully made it back to the main body of forces. This was the great battle of Salsu, and it has come to be known as one of the most glorious military triumphs in Korea's national history. Following this defeat, winter began to set in and the Sui forces, short on provisions, were forced to return home.

The Sui Dynasty was beginning to disintegrate and Yang Di decided that he urgently needed to expand his empire in order to regain power, but the two more desperate attacks on Goguryeo by Yang Di following spring met with similar disaster, and eventually internal rebellion in China forced the Sui to give up its desires on Goguryeo. By 618, the relatively short-lived Sui Dynasty was replaced by the Tang Dynasty. General Ulji Mundok's strategy and leadership had saved Goguryeo from the Chinese.

Probably the most distinguished military leader of the Goguryeo period and one of the most well-known generals in Korean history, General Ulji Mundok's leadership and tactical acumen was the decisive factor in saving Goguryeo from destruction at the hands of the invading Chinese Sui Dynasty. He faced forces of far superior numbers and not only turned them back but was able to pursue and destroy them with such vigor that they were not able nor inclined to return. His life was filled with enough spectacular success to earn him a permanent place among Korea's most remembered. He is still celebrated as a great Korean hero, and a main street in downtown Seoul, Ulji-ro, is named after him.

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浪淘音
[quote=mindtransformation,Nov 23 2004, 03:07 PM]
You obviously have done some research on this topic. Do you happen to know anything about the supposed ancestral connection between Turks and Koreans. Turks often speak of Koreans as being "cousins". I am trying to figure out why and whether or not this is verifiable. Thanks

Mindtransformation



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the attempt to connect all altaic speaking people into one nation concept is a purely Korean nationalistic attempt. Korean nationalists see themselves as warriors despite Korea's long history of submission to foreign powers by connecting themselves to actual warrior nomads like Mongols, Turks, etc,etc. through language despite the fact that Korean is only theorized to be a altaic language.

Korean pan-altaic nationalists also claim that all altaic speaking peoples got along extremely well and saw each other as "sister races" as Hi-head puts it.

1. the Khitan (proto Mongol speakers) and Jurchen(Tungusic speakers) were bitter enemies despite their so called "altaic connection". in fact, the Jurchen made the jump from hunter/gatherer life style to nomadic warfare purely as a way to rid themselves of Qidan(Khitan) Liao imperial oppression.
2. At the time of Genghis Khan, the Mongol confederation's first major enemy was the so called "tartar confederation". both were altaic speaking people and both wre bitter enemies
3. Mongols massacred Qidan, NuZhen and Koreans the same as anyone else during their invasion. so much for altaic speaking brotherhood

Pan Altaic Nationalists will also claim that Turks saw Koreans as brethren and Chinese as enemies.
1. the large majority of nomads who attacked China were AT ONE TIME allied with China or under Chinese vassalage. Entire regiments of the Tang military were enlisted Turks.
2. These nomads saw Korea as just another place to attack during raids and many times did but the majority of time, Korea never entered their thoughts. I've heard some of these people brag about hwo the Jurchen didn't attack Korea. well, the reason they over look is that Korea submitted to the Jurchen before they had a chance to attack.

pan altaic nationalists also claim that steppe nomadicism is inherent to Altaic speaking peoples. This idea ignores the entire proto-Tibetic Qiang tribal confederation who were warrior nomads but spoke a Tibetic language. Also ignores the fact that Korea and Japanese(so called altaic speakers never practiced steppe nomadicism except for Kogyruo people whom were only a small portion of the Korean population)
Adwaregator
What's with the DNA relations then? And please do not post that Japanese DNA map. I'd rather you refer to my link...
浪淘音
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Nov 23 2004, 09:49 PM)
What's with the DNA relations then?  And please do not post that Japanese DNA map.  I'd rather you refer to my link...
*


that link you gave showed the genetic diversity of the Korean group alone which would make tracing ancient DNA impossible. if you want to trace ancestral lineage, you use ancient DNA which that link was completely devoid of. The link also speaks of affinity between Chinese, Japanese and Korean, NOT links to Turkic speaking peoples(which the discussion is about)

no one is arguing that Korea/Japan have relations but its these two languages that are questioned in regards to even belonging to the altaic language group

Tibetans have been found to have genetic affinity to Japanese(one of your mighty altaic "sister nations" embarassedlaugh.gif2 ) that alone, throws a wrench into your "Altaic" blood grouping.

Korean Tungusic affinity is no more than Dongbei ren tungusic affinity.

the only true Tungusic group that was absorbed into the future korean population was the Kogyruo Mo tribe which by the way only a portion of your population descends from.

EDIT: if you want to be proud to be Korean, go ahead. Don't be proud just because linguists THINK you may speak an altaic language which a PORTION OF proud warrior nomads also spoke. (Some linguists theorize that pre-Kogyruo Korean was not remotely "Altaic". The kogyruo language replaced MOST of proto-Korean which is why Korean seems altaic but not 100% sure. its a theory, i don't jump to conclusions which benefit me like those silly pan altaic brotherhood types)
Adwaregator
QUOTE (浪淘音 @ Nov 24 2004, 01:46 AM)
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Nov 23 2004, 09:49 PM)
What's with the DNA relations then?  And please do not post that Japanese DNA map.  I'd rather you refer to my link...
*


that link you gave showed the genetic diversity of the Korean group alone which would make tracing ancient DNA impossible. if you want to trace ancestral lineage, you use ancient DNA which that link was completely devoid of. The link also speaks of affinity between Chinese, Japanese and Korean, NOT links to Turkic speaking peoples(which the discussion is about)

no one is arguing that Korea/Japan have relations but its these two languages that are questioned in regards to even belonging to the altaic language group

Tibetans have been found to have genetic affinity to Japanese(one of your mighty altaic "sister nations" embarassedlaugh.gif2 ) that alone, throws a wrench into your "Altaic" blood grouping.

Korean Tungusic affinity is no more than Dongbei ren tungusic affinity.

the only true Tungusic group that was absorbed into the future korean population was the Kogyruo Mo tribe which by the way only a portion of your population descends from.

EDIT: if you want to be proud to be Korean, go ahead. Don't be proud just because linguists THINK you may speak an altaic language which a PORTION OF proud warrior nomads also spoke. (Some linguists theorize that pre-Kogyruo Korean was not remotely "Altaic". The kogyruo language replaced MOST of proto-Korean which is why Korean seems altaic but not 100% sure. its a theory, i don't jump to conclusions which benefit me like those silly pan altaic brotherhood types)
*


The link stated that we are of a majority Mongol blood but also diverse with a little bit of others. Ancient blood, lets go dig up some dead people embarassedlaugh.gif. If we are a majority of Mongol from the past, the more we intermixed with other races that would make that part less of a factor and it would not show up as the majority.

When is the last time you've met a korean who goes around saying proudly like he's "mongol" instead of stating that's what some tests show? I'd rather call myself korean. It's only people like you who hold on to little things like decendancy as to try to prove you are worthy if anything.

I think you should change your area of interest to history instead of music. Them maybe you can argue with the crazy people like yourself who actually care about these things.

Ohhh, I'm a direct decendant of Ghenis! Woohoo I'm a khan! lmao embarassedlaugh.gif2
浪淘音
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Nov 24 2004, 11:19 AM)
QUOTE (浪淘音 @ Nov 24 2004, 01:46 AM)
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Nov 23 2004, 09:49 PM)
What's with the DNA relations then?  And please do not post that Japanese DNA map.  I'd rather you refer to my link...
*


that link you gave showed the genetic diversity of the Korean group alone which would make tracing ancient DNA impossible. if you want to trace ancestral lineage, you use ancient DNA which that link was completely devoid of. The link also speaks of affinity between Chinese, Japanese and Korean, NOT links to Turkic speaking peoples(which the discussion is about)

no one is arguing that Korea/Japan have relations but its these two languages that are questioned in regards to even belonging to the altaic language group

Tibetans have been found to have genetic affinity to Japanese(one of your mighty altaic "sister nations" embarassedlaugh.gif2 ) that alone, throws a wrench into your "Altaic" blood grouping.

Korean Tungusic affinity is no more than Dongbei ren tungusic affinity.

the only true Tungusic group that was absorbed into the future korean population was the Kogyruo Mo tribe which by the way only a portion of your population descends from.

EDIT: if you want to be proud to be Korean, go ahead. Don't be proud just because linguists THINK you may speak an altaic language which a PORTION OF proud warrior nomads also spoke. (Some linguists theorize that pre-Kogyruo Korean was not remotely "Altaic". The kogyruo language replaced MOST of proto-Korean which is why Korean seems altaic but not 100% sure. its a theory, i don't jump to conclusions which benefit me like those silly pan altaic brotherhood types)
*


The link stated that we are of a majority Mongol blood but also diverse with a little bit of others. Ancient blood, lets go dig up some dead people embarassedlaugh.gif. If we are a majority of Mongol from the past, the more we intermixed with other races that would make that part less of a factor and it would not show up as the majority.

When is the last time you've met a korean who goes around saying proudly like he's "mongol" instead of stating that's what some tests show? I'd rather call myself korean. It's only people like you who hold on to little things like decendancy as to try to prove you are worthy if anything.

I think you should change your area of interest to history instead of music. Them maybe you can argue with the crazy people like yourself who actually care about these things.

Ohhh, I'm a direct decendant of Ghenis! Woohoo I'm a khan! lmao embarassedlaugh.gif2
*



LOL mongols are one of the most diverse genetic groups in existence

by the way, i don't know how you came to that conclusion based on that link, it didnt' even mention sampling Mongolian populations.

Mongols and other steppe nomads came from Central Asia, this is proven by both archeaology and common sense

check out the genetic diversity of ancient and modern central asians
http://eebweb.arizona.edu/PostDocs/Gilbert...s/L-Fox2004.pdf

EDIT: ALSO, you're being too literal. i didn't say korean nationalists call themselves "Mongols" literally but they show pride in something that is distantly related to them and pretend like there has been a united "altaic" history because their own history is too boring and submissive to brag about.

like for instance, i read one korean claim that the NuZhen(jurchen) made an alliance with Korea when in actuality,the Korean king submitted to the NuZhen because the Jurchens threatened to invade. Also, when Kogyruo was around, they had constant battles with the "wild" NuZhens.
hi-head
QUOTE (浪淘音 @ Nov 23 2004, 04:48 PM)
the attempt to connect all altaic speaking people into one nation concept is a purely Korean nationalistic attempt. Korean nationalists see themselves as warriors despite Korea's long history of submission to foreign powers by connecting themselves to actual warrior nomads like Mongols, Turks, etc,etc. through language despite the fact that Korean is only theorized to be a altaic language.

Korean pan-altaic nationalists also claim that all altaic speaking peoples got along extremely well and saw each other as "sister races" as Hi-head puts it.

1. the Khitan (proto Mongol speakers) and Jurchen(Tungusic speakers) were bitter enemies despite their so called "altaic connection". in fact, the Jurchen made the jump from hunter/gatherer life style to nomadic warfare purely as a way to rid themselves of Qidan(Khitan) Liao imperial oppression.
2. At the time of Genghis Khan, the Mongol confederation's first major enemy was the so called "tartar confederation". both were altaic speaking people and both wre bitter enemies
3. Mongols massacred Qidan, NuZhen and Koreans the same as anyone else during their invasion. so much for altaic speaking brotherhood

Pan Altaic Nationalists will also claim that Turks saw Koreans as brethren and Chinese as enemies.
1. the large majority of nomads who attacked China were AT ONE TIME allied with China or under Chinese vassalage. Entire regiments of the Tang military were enlisted Turks.
2. These nomads saw Korea as just another place to attack during raids and many times did but the majority of time, Korea never entered their thoughts. I've heard some of these people brag about hwo the Jurchen didn't attack Korea. well, the reason they over look is that Korea submitted to the Jurchen before they had a chance to attack.

pan altaic nationalists also claim that steppe nomadicism is inherent to Altaic speaking peoples. This idea ignores the entire proto-Tibetic Qiang tribal confederation who were warrior nomads but spoke a Tibetic language. Also ignores the fact that Korea and Japanese(so called altaic speakers never practiced steppe nomadicism except for Kogyruo people whom were only a small portion of the Korean population)
*



You better fu-kin shut the hell up you ignorant chinese fool. It's the chinese people like you make your race the most hated in the world. You are the epitome of ages-old chinese programming to severe the ties of eastern altaics from the northern and western ones. Go take your fu-king bull$hit, because koreans aren't gonna be fooled anymore.
Listen, your arguments are full of flaws and bull$hit assumptions. First off, koreans are a warrior race and always was, you fu-king moron. In the long history among gigantic nations, korea lost its sovereignty only once, and that was in the colonical era of the 20th century. It was submitted by the mongols in the kublai khan's times, but the mongols spared the korean dynasty and interfered minimally. Did you know that the single country that held off the mongols for the longest period of time was the Koryo kingdom? 41 fu-king years, man, count that. No, actually start counting that man, while imagining the previously undefeated hordes from hell. Yes, that's what they did. They held em off for that long, and eventually agreed to sign a truce offer that kublai suggested, which was peace and preservation of the kingdom's sovereignty in exchange for joining the empire and tributary system. Which was a lot better than what happened to the vast majority of khan's victims, who he either slaughtered or dethroned and enslaved. Your proud chinese people were hopelessly overrun and actually governed by the mongols.

The country actually has such a proud history of successful wars and victories over numerically superior armies. Korea or korean kingdoms/empires have conquered as far as nanking and even shanghai(for a brief time, koguryo period), and defeated million-man armies of the sui dynasty and tang for numerous times. There was even a time when chinese kingdoms paid koguryo peace tributes. Even paekche received tributes from coastal chinese kingdoms. Idiotic historians like you have a fundamental inability to look beyond the obvious and raise carefull conclusions about korea's history. A good 3 quarters of her history was of constant warfare and conquest or galliant defense against large powers of asia. The recent dynasty of Choson and the last half of Koryo was the only non-warlike period of korea, as the country's corrupt and dumb leaders were content in the state of being a chinese ally and being "civilised", or trying to be like china. The country was run by civilian bastards of landed aristocracy, and military officers were put away from government affairs. Perhaps this is why you think korea was not warlike. Well, the once warlike japan is not warlike anymore today, is it. It's settled, civilian culture from the west or ancient china that turned these great warrior nations into civilian societies. THe important fact is, just as pop culture is not true heritage of modern asian countries, the true heritage for the korean peoples, the manchus, the japanese, the mongols, and the turks lay in common ground, which is love of warfare. You can still observe this in modern korea, japan and turkey: north korea is the most spartan country in the world, south korea the most gang-ridden, japan the most obsessed with warcraft and the swords and turkey run entirely by miltary-generals. The traditions and performing arts in these countries are predominantly of war themes. Don't try so hard to keep the altaic people apart you miserables.

Another flaw in your opinions. Pan-altaicism is NOT A KOREAN originated idea you fool. Most koreans are ignorant of this sort of nationalism, because history hasn't been teached correctly. It's the Turks who are the most active about this, they are the ones who call us "brothers" and dream of a reunited altaic union. The central asian republics are now picking that up, and that fever had just gotten into korea. No, koreans did not ask for admission. We were called upon. So know your facts straight, sino-centrist.

We were subjected by Jurchens? Where does it say that? You purely made that up, didn't you. Grow up, my friend and enemy. The jurchens came to korea and asked us that we combine our forces "like the old days" and attack the chinese, but korea rejected because the regime was more pro-chinese. Here we see again how the chinese illusioned the koreans. The word barbarian, orangke, was learned by the chinese. Sad. The jurchens are said to have been deeply puzzled and upset, and so they left for china on their own. Kublai also professed respect for the koreans for defeating Tang taizong, and spared them from elimination. YEs, many altaic peoples battled each other in the old times, of course you idiot, they fought amongst themselves as well as against common enemies. But resurgent nationalism knocked sense into us that we could unite in face of large, united enemies of distant racial background. German states battled each other constantly but are now unified, the entire europe, once mired in massive wars, are moving towards union. In face of a large People's Republic of China looming over asia, we'd be smart to unify. Because we all hate you, the Turks especially.

I never said warrior heritage is unique to altaics, i said we altaics share the heritage. WE are brothers with different mothers, but the same fathers. I embrace the pan-altaicism movement because a single nation can no longer survive alone in this global world of clashes between civilizations. Oh, and of course, also because the chinese are our eternal, immortal, and common enemy of eons. It's time to show who really owns asia.
hi-head
I'm wondering, where do you live? If you live nearby, I plan to hunt you down and hurt you pretty badly. After that, we can discuss whose race is better and all that crap.
If that's not what you desire, let's talk online on AIM or something, mine is hhead1919, or else shut the fu-k up and dont post here.
MING-LOYALIST
QUOTE (hi-head @ Nov 24 2004, 02:04 PM)
You are the epitome of ages-old chinese programming to severe the ties of eastern altaics from the northern and western ones. Go take your fu-king bull$hit, because koreans aren't gonna be fooled anymore.
*

Are you on drugs?

QUOTE (hi-head @ Nov 24 2004, 02:04 PM)
First off, koreans are a warrior race and always was, you fu-king moron.
The country actually has such a proud history of successful wars and victories over numerically superior armies.
*

Yes Koreans have a proud history, so does everyone else.

QUOTE (hi-head @ Nov 24 2004, 02:04 PM)
THe important fact is, just as pop culture is not true heritage of modern asian countries, the true heritage for the korean peoples, the manchus, the japanese, the mongols, and the turks lay in common ground, which is love of warfare. You can still observe this in modern korea, japan and turkey: north korea is the most spartan country in the world, south korea the most gang-ridden, japan the most obsessed with warcraft and the swords and turkey run entirely by miltary-generals. The traditions and performing arts in these countries are predominantly of war themes. Don't try so hard to keep the altaic people apart you miserables.
*

Are people supposed to be proud of those things.
NK sucks , most gangs do illegal business and Turkey is run by generals(but is that a good thing?).
You altiac peoples can unite any time you want, no one is stopping you.

QUOTE (hi-head @ Nov 24 2004, 02:04 PM)
We were subjected by Jurchens? Where does it say that? You purely made that up, didn't you. Grow up, my friend and enemy. The jurchens came to korea and asked us that we combine our forces "like the old days" and attack the chinese, but korea rejected because the regime was more pro-chinese. Here we see again how the chinese illusioned the koreans. The word barbarian, orangke, was learned by the chinese. Sad. The jurchens are said to have been deeply puzzled and upset, and so they left for china on their own.
*

Well thats so sad, maybe you can still unite with your jurchen brothers in the future.LOL embarassedlaugh.gif
BTW read up about the Manchu invasions of Korea.

QUOTE (hi-head @ Nov 24 2004, 02:04 PM)
In face of a large People's Republic of China looming over asia, we'd be smart to unify. Because we all hate you, the Turks especially.
The chinese are our eternal, immortal, and common enemy of eons. It's time to show who really owns asia.
*

The Chinese are not your enemies stupid.
浪淘音
QUOTE (hi-head @ Nov 24 2004, 02:04 PM)
QUOTE (浪淘音 @ Nov 23 2004, 04:48 PM)

the attempt to connect all altaic speaking people into one nation concept is a purely Korean nationalistic attempt. Korean nationalists see themselves as warriors despite Korea's long history of submission to foreign powers by connecting themselves to actual warrior nomads like Mongols, Turks, etc,etc. through language despite the fact that Korean is only theorized to be a altaic language.

Korean pan-altaic nationalists also claim that all altaic speaking peoples got along extremely well and saw each other as "sister races" as Hi-head puts it.

1. the Khitan (proto Mongol speakers) and Jurchen(Tungusic speakers) were bitter enemies despite their so called "altaic connection". in fact, the Jurchen made the jump from hunter/gatherer life style to nomadic warfare purely as a way to rid themselves of Qidan(Khitan) Liao imperial oppression.
2. At the time of Genghis Khan, the Mongol confederation's first major enemy was the so called "tartar confederation". both were altaic speaking people and both wre bitter enemies
3. Mongols massacred Qidan, NuZhen and Koreans the same as anyone else during their invasion. so much for altaic speaking brotherhood

Pan Altaic Nationalists will also claim that Turks saw Koreans as brethren and Chinese as enemies.
1. the large majority of nomads who attacked China were AT ONE TIME allied with China or under Chinese vassalage. Entire regiments of the Tang military were enlisted Turks.
2. These nomads saw Korea as just another place to attack during raids and many times did but the majority of time, Korea never entered their thoughts. I've heard some of these people brag about hwo the Jurchen didn't attack Korea. well, the reason they over look is that Korea submitted to the Jurchen before they had a chance to attack.

pan altaic nationalists also claim that steppe nomadicism is inherent to Altaic speaking peoples. This idea ignores the entire proto-Tibetic Qiang tribal confederation who were warrior nomads but spoke a Tibetic language. Also ignores the fact that Korea and Japanese(so called altaic speakers never practiced steppe nomadicism except for Kogyruo people whom were only a small portion of the Korean population)
*



You better fu-kin shut the hell up you ignorant chinese fool. It's the chinese people like you make your race the most hated in the world. You are the epitome of ages-old chinese programming to severe the ties of eastern altaics from the northern and western ones. Go take your fu-king bull$hit, because koreans aren't gonna be fooled anymore.
Listen, your arguments are full of flaws and bull$hit assumptions. First off, koreans are a warrior race and always was, you fu-king moron. In the long history among gigantic nations, korea lost its sovereignty only once, and that was in the colonical era of the 20th century. It was submitted by the mongols in the kublai khan's times, but the mongols spared the korean dynasty and interfered minimally. Did you know that the single country that held off the mongols for the longest period of time was the Koryo kingdom? 41 fu-king years, man, count that. No, actually start counting that man, while imagining the previously undefeated hordes from hell. Yes, that's what they did. They held em off for that long, and eventually agreed to sign a truce offer that kublai suggested, which was peace and preservation of the kingdom's sovereignty in exchange for joining the empire and tributary system. Which was a lot better than what happened to the vast majority of khan's victims, who he either slaughtered or dethroned and enslaved. Your proud chinese people were hopelessly overrun and actually governed by the mongols.

The country actually has such a proud history of successful wars and victories over numerically superior armies. Korea or korean kingdoms/empires have conquered as far as nanking and even shanghai(for a brief time, koguryo period), and defeated million-man armies of the sui dynasty and tang for numerous times. There was even a time when chinese kingdoms paid koguryo peace tributes. Even paekche received tributes from coastal chinese kingdoms. Idiotic historians like you have a fundamental inability to look beyond the obvious and raise carefull conclusions about korea's history. A good 3 quarters of her history was of constant warfare and conquest or galliant defense against large powers of asia. The recent dynasty of Choson and the last half of Koryo was the only non-warlike period of korea, as the country's corrupt and dumb leaders were content in the state of being a chinese ally and being "civilised", or trying to be like china. The country was run by civilian bastards of landed aristocracy, and military officers were put away from government affairs. Perhaps this is why you think korea was not warlike. Well, the once warlike japan is not warlike anymore today, is it. It's settled, civilian culture from the west or ancient china that turned these great warrior nations into civilian societies. THe important fact is, just as pop culture is not true heritage of modern asian countries, the true heritage for the korean peoples, the manchus, the japanese, the mongols, and the turks lay in common ground, which is love of warfare. You can still observe this in modern korea, japan and turkey: north korea is the most spartan country in the world, south korea the most gang-ridden, japan the most obsessed with warcraft and the swords and turkey run entirely by miltary-generals. The traditions and performing arts in these countries are predominantly of war themes. Don't try so hard to keep the altaic people apart you miserables.

Another flaw in your opinions. Pan-altaicism is NOT A KOREAN originated idea you fool. Most koreans are ignorant of this sort of nationalism, because history hasn't been teached correctly. It's the Turks who are the most active about this, they are the ones who call us "brothers" and dream of a reunited altaic union. The central asian republics are now picking that up, and that fever had just gotten into korea. No, koreans did not ask for admission. We were called upon. So know your facts straight, sino-centrist.

We were subjected by Jurchens? Where does it say that? You purely made that up, didn't you. Grow up, my friend and enemy. The jurchens came to korea and asked us that we combine our forces "like the old days" and attack the chinese, but korea rejected because the regime was more pro-chinese. Here we see again how the chinese illusioned the koreans. The word barbarian, orangke, was learned by the chinese. Sad. The jurchens are said to have been deeply puzzled and upset, and so they left for china on their own. Kublai also professed respect for the koreans for defeating Tang taizong, and spared them from elimination. YEs, many altaic peoples battled each other in the old times, of course you idiot, they fought amongst themselves as well as against common enemies. But resurgent nationalism knocked sense into us that we could unite in face of large, united enemies of distant racial background. German states battled each other constantly but are now unified, the entire europe, once mired in massive wars, are moving towards union. In face of a large People's Republic of China looming over asia, we'd be smart to unify. Because we all hate you, the Turks especially.

I never said warrior heritage is unique to altaics, i said we altaics share the heritage. WE are brothers with different mothers, but the same fathers. I embrace the pan-altaicism movement because a single nation can no longer survive alone in this global world of clashes between civilizations. Oh, and of course, also because the chinese are our eternal, immortal, and common enemy of eons. It's time to show who really owns asia.
*



LOL LOL LOL the NuZhens combined with Koreans? go find research by F.W Mote(who by the way opposes the idea that nomadic histories should be included with general Chinese history so hes not a "Sinocentrist" so don't cry". he is the foremost expert on the nomadic cultures outside of China's borders. All of his research as well as other scholars know for a fact that NuZhens didn't give a $hit about korea but were planning to raid Korea but Koreans submitted to them so they halted. the NuZhens came from the Amur river and Lake Baikal and migrated south, they become warriors ONLY because they had to fight off Kogyruo and the Qidan Liao empire(who did raid Korea). they were originally hunter gatherers. They didn't come into existence for warfare, they adapted to then war tactics to survive against the people surrounding them such as the QiDan and Kogyruo kingdom.

Koreans and Japanese descended from farmer people. the Jomon and Yayoi were agricultural people. It's even backed up by Korean scholars that the first Mongoloid inhabitants oif Japan are Jomon and Yayoi whom the latter were wet rice cultivators no different than austronesian aboriginals.

Bushido 武士道 is NOT a native japanese concept NOR is it a Korean concept. images of warfare exit all through China's feudal and early imperial period. It was only during the Song dynasty that China's professional soldier aristocracy ceased to exist. Japanese did not become warlike till long after they absorbed Chinese culture and technology. Go to the London Museum of Art, they have on display Tang dynasty sabers and armors which resemble your precious samurai gear.

the first warrior nomads of East Asia were without a doubt the Xiong Nu(who came from a western towards east oriented migration). They had only become full nomads around the time of China's Eastern Zhou. Do you know what koreans were doing at this time? you were JUST ending the neolithic age and transitioning to the Bronze age. Its tough to be a great warrior race when you can barely fashion swords without proper metalurgy technology


its funny, Korean nationalists claim they use to control most of China yet when confronted with proof, they respond "the Korean proof was destroyed over time". how typical. Korea was a vassal state of China's for thousands of years, this is a known fact, not a Sinocentric fantasy.

and how come you gave up on our Dong Yi argument? archeaology, anthropology, genetic studies, history and common sense too much for you?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

since you're korean, i'm assuming you live somewhere in maryland, i'm actually gonna move to maryland for a job soon. i would love to cave your skull in with my boots. i wont' use guns or arrows, its too easy. nothing like the pounding of an oversized arctic skull with fists and boots.
Emperor
lol, another fool who thinks "Altaic" is a race. For the last time: Altaic IS a language family, it doesn't have anything to do with race. And even if it did, Korean nor Japanese are Altaic languages, there isolated languages with no or minimum relationship with Altaic languages.
Other than that: you're obviously a pathetic moron who likes to make up stories (and probably get off of it too embarassedlaugh.gif). Why don't you go and get yourself a life?
koreanPRIDE
you chinazis give us back our land! jk jk icon_smile.gif
Kang Xi
QUOTE (hi-head @ Nov 24 2004, 12:04 PM)
QUOTE (浪淘音 @ Nov 23 2004, 04:48 PM)

the attempt to connect all altaic speaking people into one nation concept is a purely Korean nationalistic attempt. Korean nationalists see themselves as warriors despite Korea's long history of submission to foreign powers by connecting themselves to actual warrior nomads like Mongols, Turks, etc,etc. through language despite the fact that Korean is only theorized to be a altaic language.

Korean pan-altaic nationalists also claim that all altaic speaking peoples got along extremely well and saw each other as "sister races" as Hi-head puts it.

1. the Khitan (proto Mongol speakers) and Jurchen(Tungusic speakers) were bitter enemies despite their so called "altaic connection". in fact, the Jurchen made the jump from hunter/gatherer life style to nomadic warfare purely as a way to rid themselves of Qidan(Khitan) Liao imperial oppression.
2. At the time of Genghis Khan, the Mongol confederation's first major enemy was the so called "tartar confederation". both were altaic speaking people and both wre bitter enemies
3. Mongols massacred Qidan, NuZhen and Koreans the same as anyone else during their invasion. so much for altaic speaking brotherhood

Pan Altaic Nationalists will also claim that Turks saw Koreans as brethren and Chinese as enemies.
1. the large majority of nomads who attacked China were AT ONE TIME allied with China or under Chinese vassalage. Entire regiments of the Tang military were enlisted Turks.
2. These nomads saw Korea as just another place to attack during raids and many times did but the majority of time, Korea never entered their thoughts. I've heard some of these people brag about hwo the Jurchen didn't attack Korea. well, the reason they over look is that Korea submitted to the Jurchen before they had a chance to attack.

pan altaic nationalists also claim that steppe nomadicism is inherent to Altaic speaking peoples. This idea ignores the entire proto-Tibetic Qiang tribal confederation who were warrior nomads but spoke a Tibetic language. Also ignores the fact that Korea and Japanese(so called altaic speakers never practiced steppe nomadicism except for Kogyruo people whom were only a small portion of the Korean population)
*



You better fu-kin shut the hell up you ignorant chinese fool. It's the chinese people like you make your race the most hated in the world. You are the epitome of ages-old chinese programming to severe the ties of eastern altaics from the northern and western ones. Go take your fu-king bull$hit, because koreans aren't gonna be fooled anymore.
Listen, your arguments are full of flaws and bull$hit assumptions. First off, koreans are a warrior race and always was, you fu-king moron. In the long history among gigantic nations, korea lost its sovereignty only once, and that was in the colonical era of the 20th century. It was submitted by the mongols in the kublai khan's times, but the mongols spared the korean dynasty and interfered minimally. Did you know that the single country that held off the mongols for the longest period of time was the Koryo kingdom? 41 fu-king years, man, count that. No, actually start counting that man, while imagining the previously undefeated hordes from hell. Yes, that's what they did. They held em off for that long, and eventually agreed to sign a truce offer that kublai suggested, which was peace and preservation of the kingdom's sovereignty in exchange for joining the empire and tributary system. Which was a lot better than what happened to the vast majority of khan's victims, who he either slaughtered or dethroned and enslaved. Your proud chinese people were hopelessly overrun and actually governed by the mongols.

The country actually has such a proud history of successful wars and victories over numerically superior armies. Korea or korean kingdoms/empires have conquered as far as nanking and even shanghai(for a brief time, koguryo period), and defeated million-man armies of the sui dynasty and tang for numerous times. There was even a time when chinese kingdoms paid koguryo peace tributes. Even paekche received tributes from coastal chinese kingdoms. Idiotic historians like you have a fundamental inability to look beyond the obvious and raise carefull conclusions about korea's history. A good 3 quarters of her history was of constant warfare and conquest or galliant defense against large powers of asia. The recent dynasty of Choson and the last half of Koryo was the only non-warlike period of korea, as the country's corrupt and dumb leaders were content in the state of being a chinese ally and being "civilised", or trying to be like china. The country was run by civilian bastards of landed aristocracy, and military officers were put away from government affairs. Perhaps this is why you think korea was not warlike. Well, the once warlike japan is not warlike anymore today, is it. It's settled, civilian culture from the west or ancient china that turned these great warrior nations into civilian societies. THe important fact is, just as pop culture is not true heritage of modern asian countries, the true heritage for the korean peoples, the manchus, the japanese, the mongols, and the turks lay in common ground, which is love of warfare. You can still observe this in modern korea, japan and turkey: north korea is the most spartan country in the world, south korea the most gang-ridden, japan the most obsessed with warcraft and the swords and turkey run entirely by miltary-generals. The traditions and performing arts in these countries are predominantly of war themes. Don't try so hard to keep the altaic people apart you miserables.

Another flaw in your opinions. Pan-altaicism is NOT A KOREAN originated idea you fool. Most koreans are ignorant of this sort of nationalism, because history hasn't been teached correctly. It's the Turks who are the most active about this, they are the ones who call us "brothers" and dream of a reunited altaic union. The central asian republics are now picking that up, and that fever had just gotten into korea. No, koreans did not ask for admission. We were called upon. So know your facts straight, sino-centrist.

We were subjected by Jurchens? Where does it say that? You purely made that up, didn't you. Grow up, my friend and enemy. The jurchens came to korea and asked us that we combine our forces "like the old days" and attack the chinese, but korea rejected because the regime was more pro-chinese. Here we see again how the chinese illusioned the koreans. The word barbarian, orangke, was learned by the chinese. Sad. The jurchens are said to have been deeply puzzled and upset, and so they left for china on their own. Kublai also professed respect for the koreans for defeating Tang taizong, and spared them from elimination. YEs, many altaic peoples battled each other in the old times, of course you idiot, they fought amongst themselves as well as against common enemies. But resurgent nationalism knocked sense into us that we could unite in face of large, united enemies of distant racial background. German states battled each other constantly but are now unified, the entire europe, once mired in massive wars, are moving towards union. In face of a large People's Republic of China looming over asia, we'd be smart to unify. Because we all hate you, the Turks especially.

I never said warrior heritage is unique to altaics, i said we altaics share the heritage. WE are brothers with different mothers, but the same fathers. I embrace the pan-altaicism movement because a single nation can no longer survive alone in this global world of clashes between civilizations. Oh, and of course, also because the chinese are our eternal, immortal, and common enemy of eons. It's time to show who really owns asia.
*




I especially love the last sentence! He knows who the real master of Asia is....
Hint: It ain't puny little south korea or the laughable north korea.

Do not insult the mongol race! We are not your brothers so shut the fu-k up, you korean garbage! You cannot even unite with your north korean chinese puppets!
MiSta MujiGe
QUOTE
I especially love the last sentence! He knows who the real master of Asia is....
Hint: It ain't puny little south korea or the laughable north korea.

dont get your hopes too high because it ain't the country with 1+billion hungry peasants either. this thread is getting too ridiculous. one post by hihead was enough to attract angry chinazis in here.
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