QUOTE (LoveAndPeace @ May 17 2010, 04:55 AM)
Nope, most manchus have some chinese mixed ancestry, but there are still some pure ones left, though in a minority about 4 million. Not that I think they look that any different anyway, same with those siberian far-east people who I'm sure people would have no problem passing for east asian.There is really only an tiny difference in the facial structure.
Do you understand the word sinofication
? I'm not talking looks, I'm talking sinofication:
"to make Chinese in character or bring under Chinese influence."
Are you going to deny the well known fact that Manjus ARE now Chinese? They've lost their language and nomadic culture yet you deny that?
These articles are quite accepted worldwide unlike the author of the your link you provided looks very unconvincing anyway.And it's pages look as if some school teacher had edited his work on microsoft word.
Your author don't seem to mentioned anywhere, you put a lot of faith on this author brand new 2010 publication lol
I've known of why the Khalkhas sided with the Manjus LOOOOONG before this study. This 2010 publication does not contradict ANYthing, and is well sourced with new information; For example, I knew of the Khalkhas and Manjus during the conquest of Ming, but had no idea of Liandong Chinese as well.
So I guess a book with sources on EVERY page
is very unconvincing to you eh? Wow!
So you would prefer articles that prove their bias and complete ignorance of steppe culture and mentality that also cite no sources?
Rather then a study done by a Ph.D. who cites sources on every page? Even if he is just as much as a foreign historian like yourself? Oh wait he's Korean yes? So you would judge the author based on his ethnicity rather then his work? Very intelligent and unbiased of you.
As I mentioned before, if you don't trust him because you hate Koreans, read his references. That goes with any academic study. Since you are too lazy to find it yourself, here you go:
"The Cambridge History of China, Vol. 9: The Ch'ing Dynasty, Part 1: To 1800", 2002, Willard J. Peterson
"The Mongols of Manchuria", 1934, Owen Latimore
Because mongolia were living under manchus and controlled your land and people, what exactly don't you understand. Arabs allied with tibetans soldiers to conquer central asia but they didn't take any tibe lands from them nor did they made them paid tribute, still it was arabs (abbasid caliphate) who controlled the central asia.
You are completely neglecting the fact of sinofication. I'm going break up history for you so you can understand a little easier:
1) Khalkha-Dzungar Rivalries
2) Khalkha/Manjus/Liaodong invade Ming China, establish Qing Dynasty
3) Dzungar sought to unify Mongol peoples against the Manchu Qing
4) Dzungar pushed Khalkha who in their defeat submitted to Qing
5) Khalkha/Qing battle against Galdan Khaan
6) Khalkha/Qing genocide of the Dzungar people
7) Qing Emperors ruled legitimately as descendants of Chingghis Khaan and held same authority as Kublai Khan's Yuan
8) Gradual and consistent sinofication of Manjus - the real start of Manju/Khalkha tensions.
9) Overthrow of the Qing Dynasty was the chance for Khalkhas to be independent once again.
Not just from af forum but from other forums aswell as many mongolian who posted youtube.If there aren't any mongols who dislikes manchus and their qing dynasty, than why is it I haven't heard or read from any mongols with an similar opinion to yours? there's just no reason for that.You're the first mongol I know with an positive view on qing dynasty, and I'll bet is because of the korean author.
Where the heck did I say positive? My ancestors fought and died to free Khalkhas from Manchu influence but yet they consider Galdan Khaan and Oirats traitors and sided with Manjus in history! That's historical FACT. I've mentioned this fact before and explained to you why and the difference between Chingghisid and Non-Chingghisid - and that is NOT from the 2010 publication. You clearly do not understand us.
Your quote is not from historic records but rather interpreted by that korean historian.Can you tell me why are there are ethnic han chinese today as we speak? Why did manchus adopted chinese culture? The manchus might have treated mongols better but like I said before they have always been the one calling the shots.So what if manchus banned chinese from intermarriage with mongols? it's no big deal at all.they still claimed your lands. If they respected you more than that,why they didn't mongols asked for freedom from these manchurian rulers?
Why are there are ethnic Han Chinese today? They has always been ethnic Chinese and no steppe ruler wished to exterminate them all. Genocide is not the way of the steppes.
"How about your people?" - you may ask. As I have mentioned before "the genocide of the Dzungars was sparked by the desecration of Buddhist temples during the Dzungar invasion of Khalkha Mongolia. Religion enters politics once again, but the Western world doesn't acknowledge Buddhism similar to other religions in which the faith has been used to justify extermination and killings. Khalkha Mongols along with Kazakhs and Manjus despised old Dzungars in the past, and genocide of "infidels" was viewed as "righteous".
Why did Manjus adopted Chinese Culture? Manjus tried really hard to maintain their culture apart from the Chinese they ruled. Even your own source confirm it:
"During the Qing Dynasty, the Manchu government made efforts to preserve Manchu culture and language. These efforts were largely unsuccessful in that Manchus gradually adopted the customs and language of the surrounding Han Chinese and, by the nineteenth century, spoken Manchu was rarely used even in the Imperial court. Written Manchu, however, was still used for the keeping of records and communication between the emperor and the Banner officials until the collapse of the dynasty. The Qing dynasty also maintained a system of dual appointments in which all major imperial offices would have a Manchu and a Han Chinese member. Because of the small number of Manchus, this insured that a large fraction of them would be government officials."
The manchus might have treated mongols better but like I said before they have always been the one calling the shots.So what if manchus banned chinese from intermarriage with mongols? it's no big deal at all
Then you CLEARLY do not understand either Mongols or Dzungars let alone other steppe people. Mongolic people are always heavily outnumbered, letting even 0.5% of the Chinese enter Mongolia means Chinese would outnumber even the entire 100% Mongolian population! Manjus themselves were sinofied, Mongolians however, remained Mongol. So yes, IT IS a BIG deal.
Are you sayin you're an dzungar? an oirat mongolian?
Yes I am Oirat, I've made it very clear early in our discussion. To be honest it seems you have a misunderstanding of history from the beginning of the Qing to the very end when they got sinofied.
Btw what mongolic tribe do you belong to?
Uriankhai and Torghuud
EDIT: BTW I just recently noticed you're the same person who wrote this rather ignorant topic: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...9847&st=340
Speaking of which, why is that you can even consider it right to say such a thing from this quote?
QUOTE (LoveAndPeace @ Apr 27 2010, 04:18 PM)
Do these creatures look anything like east asians?
"Creatures" eh? Dehumanisation of people based on their look? Pffft
Also why do you hold such a grudge against Mongols based on the internet?
And why do you make racial attacks at others yet write a big topic pointing the finger at others?
Well now that I think about it, no wonder you are so insistent on saying you know better then a historian with a Doctorate degree just because he's "Korean" - a people you seem to be quite racist about really. Sad, I was hoping I was talking to a more academic and non-racialist sort. I was wrong.