i mean how do mongols look upon china's Qing dynasty or the rulers like Nurhachi or Huang Taiji etc.? as far as i know, both northern and southern mongolia were taken by manchus during that period (also in the early time the Kharachin tribe and Khorchin tirbe used to united with manchus to defeat Chahar).

I think those tungus-manchus had a relatively similar language to mongols (both altaic), so would this history be accepted easier for mongols than the history between mongols and the Han chinese?

Pretty sure not very favorably since the Qing annexed Mongolia into their empire. The Kangxi and Qianlong emperors wasted little time wiping out the Dzhungars.

All i can say is both Mongolia and China were under the Qing dynasy.Chinese were slaves of the Manjus but Mongols were ally !

it is clear then. thank u both~

Both chinese and mongolians were slaves of manchus.Do your research properbly, the manchus carried an mass massecre of mongolian people in east turkistan an extermination of nearly 1 million oirats mongolian tribes. Now they number to only 518,500 thousands. Mongolia 205,000 , Russia 174,000 , China 139,000.

"About 80% of the Dzungar population were annihilated during the Qing conquest of Zungaria in 1755-1757"

Yeah, Ivenhoe seems to be a bit of ....well let me rephrase that, a complete idiot.

What is it with foreigners and their foreign "facts" in which they believe they can dictate OVER our own people's history and reality?

"LoveAndPeace", you are wrong. Khalkha Mongols WERE allies of Manju/Hamnigan Qing and they fought WITH Manjus. Oirat and Khalkha relations still strained over pointless historical debates based on this one fact of history. How can you be ignorant enough to believe Oirat and Khalkha are of the same people 300 yrs ago during the Oirat-Khalkha war? Bah

There's a lot more to mongol/manju strained relations than just one fact of history.

Anyone who wants to know the truth read this 2010 study by a Korean author here:
http://www.wontackhong.com/homepage1/data/1141.pdf

Good read, VERY well referenced - references in ALL pages, and an Ph.D. author. I'm tired of BS from less credible sources. Koreans generally dont know our history, but they also have links to Tungusitic speaking tribes in ancient times, hence they are committed to history when it comes to other Tungus nomadic tribes such as the Manjus.

Foreign facts are sometimes more reliable, no nationilists prefer negative facts over positive ones.I don't think I can trust on mongolian sources alone,who knows if they are telling the truth.But the fact is mongolia were living under manchus rule.Are you telling me that oirats were just as different as they are with manchus,chinese? Oirats are the closest cousins of khalka mongols, there mongolians. The manchus exterminated almost an million of them and even gave their wives and childrens to the soldiers. The same can be said ethnic hui muslims chinese who were massecred by the millions too. Even the uyghurs and tibet lived an oppresive lives, under manchus.They even forced korean,nepal,southeast asia to pay tributes.Fact is manchus were just like mongols,they were just as cruel and were everywhere in asia.

Annexed dark green: Tibet,china,mongolia,manchuria,east turkistan
Tribute states light green: Korea, nepal,thailand,laos,vietnam


But than again, most conquerors and cruel and that is fact but some historian like to change that. During the occupation of east asia,southeast asia,pacific island,ainu under japan( 1868-1945). All of them reported cruelty and ill treatments by japanese. Many japanese historians tried to changed history, when I was in school they never taugh me anything about japanese being cruel to chinese people until I've read their version of story. But chinese aren't saint's either,in fact mao zedong was the most cruelest person in world. He killed more than hitler and stalin combined, he killed millions of many ethnic groups in china including their own.




Lmao! I really think you should take a look at this video of of korean/manchus before you trust some korean source...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHLuTmoXSVo

So, it seems you would trust a foreign 'historian' to know more about a certain people then the people's historians themselves. I understand your suspicions, but prejudice against an entire people? Is that truly wise for a historian? You would do better to seek out individuals who do possess objectivity in history studies.

I can spot nationalist propaganda when I see it but I can also spot historical facts or objective researchers instead of nationalists. The topic of Manju/Mongol relations is recently also full of political intrusions; recent problems within the P.R.C. with Tsahar Mongolia/Tibet/East-Turkistan -> has sparked even more.

I understand your suspicions. Myself, my own people would also object to IVENHOE's statement - and some would even say "Khalkhas still under Manju propaganda". But being objective - I've realised my people are wrong in such speculations because the fact is -> Manju/Khalkha Mongols WERE allied. All 3 people Manjus/Khalkha Mongols/Liaodong Chinese took over Ming China. I was shocked at Chinese involvement at first but this is a FACT. This fact has been established YEARS before the 2010 publication. And its a fact confirmed by objective historians including Mongolian/Western/Turkish/Russian historians - Russians who also have sources of original Manju text during the Qing/Cossack relations.

As for why you ask Khalkha Mongols sided with Manjus rather then Oirats/Dzungars -> Dzungars are considered non-chingghisid and non-legitimate. That era only those with Chingghisid blood (Descendant of Chingghis Khaan) can wield power and legitimacy on the steppes. In fact, the civil war has lasted generation after generation in the past, and even before Chingghis Khaan during old tribal confederations. Now not only were the Manjus close to Khalkha nomads in the past, they even intermarried with the Altan (Golden) family of Chingghis Khaan's descendants so they will be legitimate rulers of the steppe.

The genocide of the Dzungars was sparked by the desecration of Buddhist temples during the Dzungar invasion of Khalkha Mongolia. Religion enters politics once again, but the Western world doesn't acknowledge Buddhism similar to other religions in which the faith has been used to justify extermination and killings. Khalkha Mongols along with Kazakhs and Manjus despised old Dzungars in the past, and genocide of "infidels" was viewed as "righteous".

History is history, it's been 300 years, I don't hold a grudge against Khalkhas. But in what IVENHOE said (even if he's a damn troll himself) - is correct. As for cruelty, Dzungars are also responsible for much cruelty in the past. Even more then the Manjus - who actually promoted much steppe meritocracy in the past before their eventual sinofication. Their attempts to prevent sinofication were futile however it seemed. They even tried to ban foot-binding but failed. In more modern history - all humans have enough of war, no matter how "righteous" one can claim to be when invading a country, war... is WAR.



I don't trust Koreans nor do I trust pretty much ANYONE with history generally. However this source is un-biased, non-nationalistic, with countless other references (in every page) if you don't trust the author. It's a collection of studies put together by a Ph.D. author. Knowledge there is confirmed as FACT not just by me but also other steppe historians. I don't let racism get in the way of history. I like to treat people by merit rather then their "race".

Yet you answer my source with a youtube video, and attempt to discredit it using the author's ethnicity negatively , and then posting no decent sources of your own nor any sources credible enough for an educated opposing view. Try harder.

I always listen to what both sides has to say,I don't just trust one foreign historian, only if many foreign historians from different countries showed me the same evidence.It doesn't matter if mongol/manchus/chinese allied over ming dynasty because both of it's lands were subjugated under manchus rule, they were calling the shots like it or not, have you not obeyed their rule they would made an massecre out of your people in the same way.Even arabs allied with the tibetans in their conquest of central asia but arabs didn't take any tibetan lands. Till this day many mongolians call manchus traitors,cunning because they used mongols like meat shield, the same with the chinese. You can review this in the old mongolian/manchus thread.

Khalka may not have suffered like oirats did but keep in mind oirats are still mongolian origin.They are linguistically and genetically the same as mongolians.So if someone ask "did manchus ever enslaved and massecred mongolians" ? than the answer would be yes. Oirats/kamlyks are the same as khalka mongolians with just different tribes name.

The video was not used to entirely to discredit the author but to show that korean sources can also be very unrealiable.We have some korean nationalist who claim manchuria as part of korea,who knows what kind of korean historian has taugh them their own people to believe in this wild claim.Besides your author says nothing about mongolians being friends with manchus (or vice versa) , fact is your lands and people were always under manchus control.

^

Even Manju lands are now subjugated. Their language lost and identity lost -> "Swallowed by the Dragon" as some may say. Reality of their sinofication can't be denied, but Khalkha Mongols had NO idea when they allied with Manjus in the past. Can you personally -> say something will happen in 2100 and consider it a fact? No human can. Khalkhas nor the Manjus knew of their future of sinofication.



Manjus tried hard, it failed. And what? The 2010 publication's author did not mention the Khalkha/Tsahar/Manju/Liandong alliance?! Please READ the source fully before commenting further, the author has made it clear in regards to the Khalkha/Manju alliance:



This 2010 source is consistent with other studies that will explain the Khalkha Mongol mentality in present times, it's still the mentality of the majority of Khalkhas, I disagree with them strongly, but that's history. I believe Khalkhas were as big of a fool as we Dzungars were in history. History exists in present times so either Khalkha or Oirat can learn from it.

My people are not Khalkha, we are Mongols sure - but we were not Chingghisid, and Oirats/Khalkhas have been warring for centuries. Sure the Manjus were the leaders sure during those times in the later years of Oirat/Khalkha tensions. But Khalkhas were not slaves - but allies. Han Chinese at the very bottom of the social ladder. Khalkhas felt it was the beginning of a new era of Chingghis Khaan's descendants; to once again slay the dragon. The irony really. But that as I said - its history.

Origins didn't matter during those times - except for this -> Chingghisid or NON-Chingghissid. You can be full Mongol and have no Chingghisid blood - but you WILL HAVE NO LEGITIMACY on the steppes. Nomads in the past traditionally did NOT have the same mentality that foreigners have. Race is not a word, merit however - is everything. The one difference of Dzungars and Khalkhas/Manjus is that we figured in history merit is the real way. But Khalkhas/Manjus upheld monarchism instead of meritocracy including their influence from Buddhism and hence as Dzungars were "illegimate" Mongols. Sad is it? It's history. Heh Khalkhas got what they had coming to them anyways.

As I have mentioned before as well the author of the 2010 publication is Korean but unlike Korean nationalists (or others) with bogus theories its dedicated to objectivity and has cited further sources which in this case makes others such as yourself unable to academically dismiss his studies due to his ethnicity.

I know you don't like this, I don't like it either, but facts are facts. Accept the past and move forward is what I want all Mongols worldwide to do. This thread also specifically asked - for the opinion of Mongols, not Chinese. But thankfully, you have been a somewhat better replier then other Chinese here on this chat.

What brings you to steppe history may I ask?

Well there are still 10 million people who idendify themselves as manchus so you're wrong on that part.The manchu population is about the same population as both inner mongolia+ mongolia combined but yes it is true they lost their language.




Is this source accepted internationally? I have read from many different sources from wiki,articles regarding mongolian under manchus and all of them say that mongolia were living under an oppresive rule under manchus. The alliance was made because khalka summited to manchus, because they were overan by dzungars.

"Despite the Manchu (Qing) Dynasty's 200-year long oppressive rule of Mongolia,the Mongols still retained their language, culture and own traditions"





This a very new source, most mongolians today view badly of manchus.For example in this thread, not one mongolian or person has anything good to say about them.

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=61372

Well according to history.

"Mongolia during Qing rule refers to the period of Qing Dynasty's rule over Greater Mongolia, including Outer Mongolian 4 aimags and Inner Mongolian 6 leagues. The last Qaghan Ligden was defeated by the Manchus due to rebellions and desertions of other Mongol tribes, and he died soon afterwards. His son Ejei Khan gave Huang Taiji the imperial authority, ending the Borjigin rule in Inner Mongolia in 1635. However, the Northern Khalkhas under the Borjigin princes retained their independence until they were overrun by the Zunghars in 1690, and they submitted to the Qing Dynasty in 1691"

"Over the course of the 17th and 18th centuries, Greater Mongolia (exc. Buryatia and Altai) became part of the Qing empire. Even before the dynasty was founded, the escapades of Ligden Khan had driven a number of Mongol tribes to join the Manchu state. After Ligden's defeat and death his son had to submit to the Manchu, and when the Qing dynasty was founded, most of what is now called Inner Mongolia already belonged to the new state. The Khalkha joined in 1691 when their defeat by the Dzungars left them without a chance to remain independent. The Khoshud in Qinghai were conquered in 1723/24. The Dzungars were finally destroyed, and their territory conquered, in 1756/57. The last Mongols to join the empire were the returning Torgud Kalmyks at the Ili in 1771"



What's facts? this brand new publication of 2010 done by an korean historian? Not good enough.



Because I like steppe history.

Yes, 10 million and counting -> many of those are Han Chinese attempting to escape the one-child policy or other imposed policies within the P.R.C. by claiming Manju descendancy. Not to mention the Manjus who are also legitimate claimants nowadays are still sinofied . Have you ever met a Manju descendant before in real life? They ARE very much sinofied. The very last of their people exist in the Siberian Far-East. Irony really.



Yes it is accepted by historians despite being nothing new from much older Russian/Chinese/Mongolian/Turkish sources in regards to steppe history.

As for the majority of articles you may have read on the net it's as much BS as others who still to this day consider us "barbarians" including another site which said our shamans are "possessed by demonic spirits". Foreign ARTICLES also said "Chingghis Khaan supported foot-binding to 'keep women out of power'" which is in complete ignorance at the ways of the steppe - seriously WTF?. Feminism has always been in steppe culture and many famous leaders are women including a famed wrestler who was Kublai Khaan's niece. Chingghis Khaan did not oppose foot-binding as he wanted peace with Chinese folk not to diminish their cultural rights in the 13th century. The Manjus however, did try to ban it. But they tried, but failed in the end as a result of sinofication.

Thats the credibility of your articles for ya. "Oppressive" is a word pinned by a foreigner. Our people and others who have studied deep into steppe history has learnt the contrary.



You would base your impression of the "majority of Mongolians" by posters on AF forum? Are you KIDDING ME?!



Where is it from your "historical quote" (from Wikipedia btw - I found your "source" - expected actually) - That the Manjus had the so-called oppressive rule even mmm? If Khalkha Mongols are as you claim "slaves" - then explain why there are even Khalkha Mongols nowadays as we speak? Heck even read the bogus thread you posted -> "Manjus banned Chinese from intermarriage with Mongols" as well as "Banning Chinese to enter Mongolia".

One accurate quote actually though -> Tsahar Mongols were willing, Khalkhas had no damn choice - that quote is very accurate. Yet Khalkhas who were part of the Ming Conquest still remained free from sinofication. It was we Dzungars who pushed the Khalkha tribes to the final point of submission. Even they already were closer to Manjus then to us Dzungars. Far is it from your so-called "oppressive rule" of Manju history.



Again, you cite the author's ethnicity negatively to prove your point. Running out of options? It's getting lame, and he has yet far more creditials then you in this subject.



Then come and visit us at Steppe History Forum, many will answer your questions with credible sources for you to read in the library.
http://steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi

Nope, most manchus have some chinese mixed ancestry, but there are still some pure ones left, though in a minority about 4 million. Not that I think they look that any different anyway, same with those siberian far-east people who I'm sure people would have no problem passing for east asian.There is really only an tiny difference in the facial structure.

(Siberian fart east, these kids are tungustic)

(Chinese kids)








Where did it say it is widely accepted by historians? show me something that shows me this is accepted worldwide and not just by you or mongolian historians.



These articles are quite accepted worldwide unlike the author of the your link you provided looks very unconvincing anyway.And it's pages look as if some school teacher had edited his work on microsoft word.




Because mongolia were living under manchus and controlled your land and people, what exactly don't you understand. Arabs allied with tibetans soldiers to conquer central asia but they didn't take any tibe lands from them nor did they made them paid tribute, still it was arabs (abbasid caliphate) who controlled the central asia.



Not just from af forum but from other forums aswell as many mongolian who posted youtube.If there aren't any mongols who dislikes manchus and their qing dynasty, than why is it I haven't heard or read from any mongols with an similar opinion to yours? there's just no reason for that.You're the first mongol I know with an positive view on qing dynasty, and I'll bet is because of the korean author.




Your quote is not from historic records but rather interpreted by that korean historian.Can you tell me why are there are ethnic han chinese today as we speak? Why did manchus adopted chinese culture? The manchus might have treated mongols better but like I said before they have always been the one calling the shots.So what if manchus banned chinese from intermarriage with mongols? it's no big deal at all.they still claimed your lands. If they respected you more than that,why they didn't mongols asked for freedom from these manchurian rulers?




Are you sayin you're an dzungar? an oirat mongolian?




Your author don't seem to mentioned anywhere, you put a lot of faith on this author brand new 2010 publication lol



Thanks for the link, I'll go there when I feel like it.

Btw what mongolic tribe do you belong to?

Do you understand the word sinofication? I'm not talking looks, I'm talking sinofication:
"to make Chinese in character or bring under Chinese influence."

Are you going to deny the well known fact that Manjus ARE now Chinese? They've lost their language and nomadic culture yet you deny that?




I've known of why the Khalkhas sided with the Manjus LOOOOONG before this study. This 2010 publication does not contradict ANYthing, and is well sourced with new information; For example, I knew of the Khalkhas and Manjus during the conquest of Ming, but had no idea of Liandong Chinese as well.

So I guess a book with sources on EVERY page is very unconvincing to you eh? Wow!
So you would prefer articles that prove their bias and complete ignorance of steppe culture and mentality that also cite no sources?
Rather then a study done by a Ph.D. who cites sources on every page? Even if he is just as much as a foreign historian like yourself? Oh wait he's Korean yes? So you would judge the author based on his ethnicity rather then his work? Very intelligent and unbiased of you.

As I mentioned before, if you don't trust him because you hate Koreans, read his references. That goes with any academic study. Since you are too lazy to find it yourself, here you go:
"The Cambridge History of China, Vol. 9: The Ch'ing Dynasty, Part 1: To 1800", 2002, Willard J. Peterson
"The Mongols of Manchuria", 1934, Owen Latimore



You are completely neglecting the fact of sinofication. I'm going break up history for you so you can understand a little easier:
1) Khalkha-Dzungar Rivalries
2) Khalkha/Manjus/Liaodong invade Ming China, establish Qing Dynasty
3) Dzungar sought to unify Mongol peoples against the Manchu Qing
4) Dzungar pushed Khalkha who in their defeat submitted to Qing
5) Khalkha/Qing battle against Galdan Khaan
6) Khalkha/Qing genocide of the Dzungar people
7) Qing Emperors ruled legitimately as descendants of Chingghis Khaan and held same authority as Kublai Khan's Yuan
8) Gradual and consistent sinofication of Manjus - the real start of Manju/Khalkha tensions.
9) Overthrow of the Qing Dynasty was the chance for Khalkhas to be independent once again.



Where the heck did I say positive? My ancestors fought and died to free Khalkhas from Manchu influence but yet they consider Galdan Khaan and Oirats traitors and sided with Manjus in history! That's historical FACT. I've mentioned this fact before and explained to you why and the difference between Chingghisid and Non-Chingghisid - and that is NOT from the 2010 publication. You clearly do not understand us.



Why are there are ethnic Han Chinese today? They has always been ethnic Chinese and no steppe ruler wished to exterminate them all. Genocide is not the way of the steppes.

"How about your people?" - you may ask. As I have mentioned before "the genocide of the Dzungars was sparked by the desecration of Buddhist temples during the Dzungar invasion of Khalkha Mongolia. Religion enters politics once again, but the Western world doesn't acknowledge Buddhism similar to other religions in which the faith has been used to justify extermination and killings. Khalkha Mongols along with Kazakhs and Manjus despised old Dzungars in the past, and genocide of "infidels" was viewed as "righteous".

Why did Manjus adopted Chinese Culture? Manjus tried really hard to maintain their culture apart from the Chinese they ruled. Even your own source confirm it:

"During the Qing Dynasty, the Manchu government made efforts to preserve Manchu culture and language. These efforts were largely unsuccessful in that Manchus gradually adopted the customs and language of the surrounding Han Chinese and, by the nineteenth century, spoken Manchu was rarely used even in the Imperial court. Written Manchu, however, was still used for the keeping of records and communication between the emperor and the Banner officials until the collapse of the dynasty. The Qing dynasty also maintained a system of dual appointments in which all major imperial offices would have a Manchu and a Han Chinese member. Because of the small number of Manchus, this insured that a large fraction of them would be government officials."



Then you CLEARLY do not understand either Mongols or Dzungars let alone other steppe people. Mongolic people are always heavily outnumbered, letting even 0.5% of the Chinese enter Mongolia means Chinese would outnumber even the entire 100% Mongolian population! Manjus themselves were sinofied, Mongolians however, remained Mongol. So yes, IT IS a BIG deal.



Yes I am Oirat, I've made it very clear early in our discussion. To be honest it seems you have a misunderstanding of history from the beginning of the Qing to the very end when they got sinofied.



Uriankhai and Torghuud

EDIT: BTW I just recently noticed you're the same person who wrote this rather ignorant topic: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...9847&st=340
Speaking of which, why is that you can even consider it right to say such a thing from this quote?

"Creatures" eh? Dehumanisation of people based on their look? Pffft
Also why do you hold such a grudge against Mongols based on the internet?
And why do you make racial attacks at others yet write a big topic pointing the finger at others?

Well now that I think about it, no wonder you are so insistent on saying you know better then a historian with a Doctorate degree just because he's "Korean" - a people you seem to be quite racist about really. Sad, I was hoping I was talking to a more academic and non-racialist sort. I was wrong.

I'm fully aware of the sinofication of manchus but that wasn't my point.Besides it doesn't take half an brain to know they lost their language and nomadic culture,why else do you think manchuria don't exist anymore, use commonsense.However I wanted point out that a lot of people think all manchus have mixed of chinese ancestry, therefore look like an chinese people but if you take a look at all of their manchus tungustic forest tribes cousins they look just about the same anyway, with very slight difference in facial feature.I believe the eyes of tungustic people are slantier than chinese.

Than you should know by now that khalkas submitted to the manchus rule it's an fact.Mongols may have allied with manchus and took part in the "ten great campaign" but it wasn't mongols who decided it was manchus who decided. Who do you think were calling the shots when genghis khan united the mongol and turkic tribes? was it mongol or turkic?




Look there are even books who claim "the vikings were black" or "alexander the great was albanian". So tell me, do those books sound convincing to you? This study was done Ph.D was nothing special, I tried checking on this guy but got nothing at all, must be some low status historian. And yes the fact that he is ethnically korean does make me kind of suspicious to an extend, since we all know fact koreans are always trying to make an correlation with mongolians and would do anything to be accepted as brothers with mongols, the author (who knows what in his mind?) could very be bias on his study. Just like this bias korean scientist who thinks mongolians and koreans look exactly same, even once tried to proved it they are decended from mongolian tribes by doing some crappy blood tests on koreans and mongolians individuals,his paper work sounds realistic too but was strongly critisized by other scientists, his work was not realiable and great majority of koreans are proven not to be related with mongols.However the truth is koreans and mongols do look about the same,besides their mtdna are with mongols,chinese.They look simila because they all evolved around in northeast asia that is why they look about the same (though no exactly).And that's why europeans all look europeans(yet again not exactly) even though east europeans,west europeans and north europeans carry different haplogroups.




No I don't hate koreans and no doubt you be bias in supporting this view since he doesn't say anything remotely negative about mongolians under manchus.Your other authors proves nothing either.

Please provide some quote or link.




You missed a few things.

"The last Qaghan Ligden was defeated by the Manchus due to rebellions and desertions of other Mongol tribes, and he died soon afterwards"

I'm not too sure about number 6.It is said that the soldiers were mostly compose of chinese soldier and some manchu soldiers and general.But I'm not sure about this.

"During this period the Manchu-Chinese forces were combating the Dzungars, whose territories bordered on the Kalmuck khanates, themselves tributaries of "





It's kind of funny that I'm talking to an oirat mongolian on internet since you guys are only few hundred thousands left.And it's even more funny you call your own people traitors.Do you even dislike what manchus did to the oirats?




So what does that change? I've also aware that the kazakhs killed many dzungars.But here is the thing I've been pointing out again and that is dzungars are still mongolian people, unlest you tell me they are not mongolian than manchus mongols were never slaves of manchus. Yes, manchus did treat Khalkha mongols with respect but mongolia have been under their rule from 1635- 1914.


1. Manchus/Khalka allied due to khalka submission of qing and have their lands incoporated.
2. Manchus nearly exterminated million of oirats while khalka in past were overran and defeated by them

Meaning manchus had the power to destroy mongols if they wanted to.




Because chinese culture are superior to nomadic culture anyday. Do you really think the manchus would still want to live in nomadic lifestyle when they can live in much better condition?



Banning chinese people from entering mongolia is nothing special, it's a small request and not an big deal.It's the least manchus could do for the mongols who fought for manchus.



I'm actually little suspicious if you're oirat , you don't seem to care about them that much and talk as if they deserved it.I understand the history very well, It says that mongolians were living an 200 years oppressive rule under manchus aswell as being allies of manchus.



What does brazilian indians have anything to do with this thread?

So what? even historian with doctorate degree can be bias if they want. Do you think every historian with an doctorate degree are honest people? Even turkish historians with degree are prejudice,they still they are mostly decended from central asians but when in fact genetics showed they are turkicized anantolians. In other words turkish turks are fake turks.

LOL! Wow! Your ethnocentrism is incredible!
Not to mention this thread specifically asked for Mongol's opinion. Not CHINESE.

Another supremist Chinazi troll I see.



And yet the Manchus fought hard against Sinofication. Your OWN source which you have cut out from my post -> confirms it. Your argument fails.

"During the Qing Dynasty, the Manchu government made efforts to preserve Manchu culture and language. These efforts were largely unsuccessful in that Manchus gradually adopted the customs and language of the surrounding Han Chinese and, by the nineteenth century, spoken Manchu was rarely used even in the Imperial court. Written Manchu, however, was still used for the keeping of records and communication between the emperor and the Banner officials until the collapse of the dynasty. The Qing dynasty also maintained a system of dual appointments in which all major imperial offices would have a Manchu and a Han Chinese member. Because of the small number of Manchus, this insured that a large fraction of them would be government officials."



Where was it that I ever denied Manchu leadership of East-Central Asia hmmm? I have even elaborated on that fact and mentioned how they married within the Altan family to make sure they would be seen as legitimate rulers. What do you not understand?



When are you even going to bother even reading it? Afraid you'll find facts that you can't argue against?



As I've mentioned how damn times now -> I was suspect as well until I read further. Unlike you, I read before commenting. You think I don't know of the bogus sh-t coming from Korea? Or Russia? Or Mongolia? Let alone China?! Sheez.



I've already provided sources for you to study on.
"The Cambridge History of China, Vol. 9: The Ch'ing Dynasty, Part 1: To 1800", 2002, Willard J. Peterson
"The Mongols of Manchuria", 1934, Owen Lattimore

I've already cited a quote from Lattimore: "Mongols had never looked on the Manchu Emperors as alien conquerors, and they felt that they were equals of the Manchus as founders of the Manchu Empire.”" In which you have insisted on ignoring.

So I guess one can declare "proves nothing" before even reading yes?

Wow, you obviously have absolutely no idea about the difference between Oirats/Dzungar tribes and Khalkha tribes.

"My ancestors fought and died to free Khalkhas from Manchu influence but yet they consider Galdan Khaan and Oirats traitors and sided with Manjus in history! That's historical FACT"
Now you ask -> Do I dislike what Manchus did to the Oirats? Definitely. Do I dislike Khalkha/Oirat disunity today? Definitely. Do I hold a grudge over something that happened 300 years ago? Nope.



I do not recall any quote of mine which considered my people non-Mongol
But you obviously have no idea about the historical disunity between Oirat Mongol tribes and Khalkha Mongol tribes.



Wow! I had no idea all Oirats think alike. Must be something new! lololol!
In fact, you even made a topic to insult Mongol people generalising ALL OF US into your little brain box. It seems that's this is how you view the world and others.



So because I am Oirat, I should act "accordingly" to how you - A chinaman, dictates on "how we Oirats should act"! LOL!
If you think we Oirats should go around nowadays and whine like you do (like here: "Mongols disrespecting on East Asians!)

Then I'm sorry, for you are very wrong.



I'm no fool enough to trust all educated folk. Nor am I fool enough to dismiss them if they have solid facts. Nor do I give a crap about an author's ethnicity if they can produce solid facts. Merit - not racism, is part of my culture. Unlike yourself I am not a supremist.

Bah, going in circles. Wasted enough time with someone like you proclaiming:


Also too arrogant to even read any source I have provided. Hell, if I provide more sources, before even opening up the book -> you'll say it's "bad information"... This is getting NOWHERE.

Just like your previous troll thread.

Okay don't try to twist the subject, I have tons more arguements with chinese than the average mongolian. In terms of cultures, chinese culture is superior to nomadic culture and that is fact.I'm not asking chinese opinion I'm using them as an example, don't get confused.

Four great ancient civilizations

"The four civilizations were ancient China, Babylon, ancient India and ancient Egypt. Liang Qichao divided the history of the world into three ages: "river age", "sea age", and "ocean age". The four great civilizations were in the river age and all of them developed along rivers"





I don't need to read your source,simply because I don't trust it.But why don't you take a read at this.


Mongolia under the Manchus (17th-19th centuries)

"The Manchus conquered first Inner and then Outer Mongolia, incorporating them in their new empire. The Manchu emperor thus became the ruler of the Mongols and of Mongolia. The Manchus did not replace the nobility. The Mongol nobles retained their place in Mongol society and traditional titles. The Manchus did proceed to implement an elaborate administrative system in Mongolia for the first time, both to govern and tax. The Manchus intervened more in Inner than Outer Mongolia and implemented an administeative system more along Chinese lines. The Manchus organized the 24 traditional provinces into six large regions. The Manchu appointed a governor to oversee Outer Mongolia. The governer ruled from Uliastai. Outer Mongolia was divided in to three provinces (1691). The provinces were: Tusheet khan province, Zasagt khan province and Setsen khan province. A fourth province was added (Sain khan province (1725). This was to reward lord Sain for hisassistance in the war with the Oirads who had earlier broken away from the Mongols. The Emperor appointed another govenor to rule centrl Mongolia from Huree. Eventually the tribes in western Mongolia were forced to also recognize the Emperor's authority. The emperor appointed a govenor in Howd (1762). The Mongols had embraced Buddhism during the era of the Lesser Khan. The Manchus as with other areas of their rule, did not seek to radically reform Mongol society, but to basically control it. They retained the Bogd (Buddhist religious keader). The Manchu created a ministy to oversee the Bogd. There was resistance to the Manchus, including number of rebellions. The most important occurred in western Mongolia, the most remote and traditional area. A group of Mongol nobels launched an uprising (1755). The leaders were Galdan boshigt, Amarsanaa, and Chingunjav. There were some initial successes. But after the Manchu mobilized and deployed a massive ar,y, it was easily crushed. Amarsanaa sought refuge in Russia. Other leaders were executed and their followers dealt with harshly. The Manchus supressed Mongol desires for autonomy. Under Manchu rule, Mongolia was entirely closed off from the outside world. Thus Mobgoliaentered the 20th century as a backward region of a traditional and declining Manchu Empire"







Was that all you read? Unfortenately the quote from lattimore is has not been taken into consideration though the author is respected by many. I pasted that quote on google and once again it's the same link as you provided me before. www.wontackhong.com/homepage1/data/1140.doc

Also this lattimore guy is said be some american author, educator, and influential scholar of Central Asia, especially Mongolia. What I find funny the state Museum in Ulaanbaatar named a newly discovered dinosaur after him and is respected by many mongolian. What's even funny is other people call him an fool and accused him of being soviet spy.So it seems there is more to this guy than just a historian.




Why are these piece of information only in books? why aren't they included on articles or wikipedia?

Hold on, I heard that Oirats and other Mongols did not consider themselves Mongols until recently.

What is the difference between them? they are both of mongolian origin with just different tribes name.

Lmao! If you talk of your ancestors so heroic than why did you called them traitor? I find that very interesting.






I'm not a chinaman and you're not an oirat.I respect chinese more culturely than mongolian empire.It's rare for japanese people to like chinese, we just don't get alone because of our history,chinese till this day are still holding an grudge against us which is annoying and sometimes I can't contain myself , same with the koreans who are pushing it. At least the southeast asian and pacific islanders don't hold an grudge against us anymore. But till this day chinese and koreans still can't let go of it.

Mongolians need to learn to show respect to other people, and stop always bragging about genghis khan or mongol empire to make up for the other things in their lives.Mongolia today are one poorest countries in the world, living in one of the worst enviroment and conditions ,but as long they have their mongol empire in which their ancestors created they feel proud and are not needed to contribute anything in world.

@Thoughtfelon


No point in attempting to educate this troll mate, he won't listen. I've wasted enough time with him who prefers internet articles that say stuff like this:
"A group of Mongol nobels launched an uprising (1755). The leaders were Galdan boshigt, Amarsanaa, and Chingunjav."
In which those leaders are as you have guessed -> Are actually Oirat, not Khalkha Mongol.

As you can see, he prefers the internet, compared to reading books. As you know, academic scholars can not cite internet sources for this very same reason.
Don't waste your time either, if you are interested please visit steppe history forum here: http://steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi
Admin himself and many others are quite educated - and also more educated then me in this subject (including Turkic/Sarmatian/Scythia/Saka history), and can cite sources rather then net articles.

On AsiaFinest as you can see,
- If you go to AF's "Mongolian" forum, you'll see troll threads instead like LoveAndPeace's thread I mentioned above
- If you ask for a Mongol opinion on a Mongol subject, non-Mongol trolls will come instead to answer lol
- If you come here to talk to Mongols, you'll see instead posts of non-Mongols boasting of their "supremacy" and insult us

On that note, seemingly as how my efforts to revive this forum has gone in vain. I'm outta here.

EDIT: It would seem he is in fact Japanese as he says. So now from Chinese trolls, Mongolian trolls, we also have a Japanese troll! Heh, obviously as you can see you won't get a proper chat going here on this forum.

Lmao! Mr. Khalka mongol just go ahead and insult your chinese enemies as much as you want,I don't care.

Learn to accept facts, every country has something superior in their lives, mongol had an big great empire, chinese influenced it's culture, japan in it's advance technology,korea maybe in it's pop culture, manchu's qing dynasty.There's always something other nation has that others don't have

YEAH! let's forget the arguement.

It is regrettable, but this forum has not been moderated for so long. Please come and visit once a while subo

I have always respect Mr Darkblade for his insight.

Anda, the Mongolian Chat need you here. Just ignore this LoveandPeace troll, he is not into serious discussion. He resorted to name calling when people disagree with him and pawned him.

Why people always call it trolling ? Damn it.We need clear discussions ! We don't have to have same thoughts on everything lol