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Nusantara
QUOTE
By MATTHEW BARAKAT
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- A fraud ring operating in northern Virginia helped more than 1,000 Indonesian immigrants file bogus asylum applications in recent years, federal prosecutors said Monday.

Sixteen people were arrested Monday and 10 more are facing federal charges, including asylum fraud and labor-certification fraud.

The defendants all worked for companies that charged immigrants $2,000 or more to help them with fraudulent asylum claims or to improperly obtain labor certifications or identification documents like Virginia driver's licenses.

Applicants were coached to tell authorities they had been beaten or raped by Muslims in Indonesia because they were ethnic Chinese or Christians. Their applications contained bogus accounts of abuse that were identical on multiple applications.
"The stories of torture they fabricated were repeated word for word by immigrants who were coached to memorize them exactly," said U.S. Attorney Paul McNulty. McNulty's office has made immigration fraud a priority since the Sept. 11 attacks, when it was discovered that seven of the 19 hijackers had fraudulently obtained Virginia driver's licenses.

The ringleader, prosecutors say, was Hans Gouw, 53, of Fairfax Station, an Indonesian citizen who was himself granted asylum in 1999.

Gouw and his sister - also an Indonesian citizen who had been granted asylum - were directors of the Chinese Indonesian American Society, which purportedly sought to help Indonesians immigrate to the United States, according to a court affidavit.

The society regularly advertised in two U.S. magazines catering to Indonesians, with "customer representatives" across the country.

Gouw's lawyer, Dale Dover, declined to comment on the allegations Monday but said, "We appreciate the seriousness of these matters, and look forward to resolving the allegations."

Immigration officials said they will review the applications called into question and revoke asylum when appropriate.

Of the 26 facing charges, 23 were Indonesian, two were U.S. citizens and one is believed to be an Australian of Indonesian descent. Fifteen of the 23 Indonesians were granted asylum.
purnomor
Making fake horror stories abt Indonesia to frauduelantly get asylum in USA, n now they're in hot water over it. IMO these ppl deserved no sympathy thumbsdown.gif

QUOTE
Twenty-Six Charged for Fraudulent
Immigration Related Practices



(FBI) Paul J. McNulty, United States Attorney for the Eafstern District of Virginia, announced the filing of charges against twenty-six defendants for asylum fraud; labor certification fraud; identification document fraud; and conspiracy. The 26 defendants and the specific charges lodged against them are as follows:

1) Hans Gouw, age 53, of Fairfax, Virginia (asylum fraud);

2) Isnayanti Gouw, age 35, of Fairfax, Virginia (asylum fraud);

3) Jenny Gandasaputra, age 51, of Fairfax, Virginia (asylum fraud);

4) Herman Tanudjaja, age 59, of Fairfax, Virginia (conspiracy to commit identification document fraud);

5) Johnson Aliffin, age 33, of Springfield, Virginia (conspiracy to commit asylum fraud);

6) Ratna Hartanto, age 38, of Alexandria, Virginia (asylum fraud);

7) Rosita Setyawati, age 46, of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (asylum fraud);

8) Brigitta Parera, age 35, of Vienna, Virginia (asylum fraud);

9) Willy Irsan, age 33, of Centreville, Virginia (asylum fraud);

10) Achnita Supomo, age 37, of Centreville, Virginia (asylum fraud);

11) Lestari Nugroho, age 27, of Portland, Oregon (asylum fraud);

12) Raymond Marschall, age 26, of Fairfax, Virginia (conspiracy to commit identification document fraud);

13) Hanny Kembuan, age 46, of Glendale, California (asylum fraud);

14) Herlina Suherman, age 28, of East Lansing, Michigan (asylum fraud);

15) Surya Halim, age 33, of Centreville, Virginia (asylum fraud);

16) Danny Susanto, age 34, of Fairfax, Virginia (conspiracy to commit asylum fraud);

17) Henry Lee, age 29 (address unknown) (conspiracy to commit asylum fraud);

18) Albert Warong, age 75, of Gaithersburg, Maryland (conspiracy to commit identification document fraud);

19) Sari Tanudjaya, age 48, of Gaithersburg, Maryland (conspiracy to commit identification document fraud);

20) Johannis Ticoalu, age 57, of Alexandria, Virginia (conspiracy to commit identification document fraud);

21) Megawaty Gandasaputra, age 46, of Fairfax, Virginia (asylum fraud);

22) Michael Wright, age 43, of Fairfax, Virginia (conspiracy to commit labor certification fraud);

23) Irawan Muljadi, age 55 (address unknown) (conspiracy to commit identification document fraud);

24) Nany Kumala, age 49, of Burke, Virginia (identification document fraud);

25) Silvy Karageorge, age 47, of Manassas, Virginia (asylum fraud); and

26) Joandi Gani, age 19, of Fairfax, Virginia (labor certification fraud).

Twenty-three of the defendants are Indonesian citizens; two are United States citizens; and one is believed to be an Australian of Indonesian descent. The 23 defendants who are Indonesian citizens have the following U.S. immigration status: three are lawful permanent residents; 15 have been granted asylum; and five have no legal status.

The charges are the result of a nearly two-year investigation into the illegal practices of Indonesian immigration brokers and consultants operating in Northern Virginia and Maryland. Four principal brokerages were investigated: (1) the Chinese Indonesian American Society, operated by defendant Hans Gouw and located in Fairfax Station, Virginia; (2) Asian American Placement Services, operated by defendants Megawaty Gandasaputra and Michael Wright and located in Springfield, Virginia; (3) Kumala Nusantara, operated by defendant Nany Kumala and located in Burke, Virginia; and (4) Chinese Indonesian Pribumi Community Service, operated by defendant Silvy Karageorge and located in Manassas, Virginia.

As the affidavit filed in support of these charges details, the government alleges that the owners, employees, and associates of these brokerages knowingly defrauded the federal government and the Commonwealth of Virginia from at least late 1999 through the present. In particular, the government’s investigation revealed that the defendants aided thousands of Indonesian immigrants living throughout the United States to apply by fraud for a wide variety of government benefits in return for substantial fees. These benefits included asylum in the United States; green cards through alien labor certification; Virginia driver’s licenses and identification cards; United States passports; and social security cards.

The government’s affidavit alleges that the principal frauds pursued by the defendants were asylum fraud, labor certification fraud, and identification document fraud. With regard to asylum, the government’s investigation revealed that several of the defendants were routinely preparing fraudulent asylum applications for Indonesian clients in return for a fee of $2,000 or more. These applications typically contained false claims that the applicant had been raped, sexually assaulted, beaten, or robbed by Muslims in Indonesia on account of the applicant’s Chinese ethnicity or adherence to Christianity. Many of these claims were stock accounts repeated with little variation from application to application. The defendants often supported these claims with counterfeit Indonesian documents, such as birth certificates, baptismal certificates, and police reports. The investigation also revealed that these same defendants coached their clients to exploit the perceived sympathies of the asylum officers and immigration judges assigned to consider the applications. For example, the defendants counseled married immigrants to feature the wife as the lead applicant because the defendants believed asylum officers and immigration judges were more sympathetic to women and less likely to question them aggressively. Applicants were told to cry, plead, and avoid positive references to Indonesia. The defendants also supplied their immigrant clients with Indonesian interpreters who would enhance and correct the testimony clients gave asylum officers during asylum interviews.

With regard to identification document fraud, the government alleges that several of the defendants routinely aided Indonesian clients to obtain Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) driver’s licenses, learner’s permits, and identification cards by fraud. In particular, the government found that the defendants prepared fraudulent DMV residency certifications (DMV form DL51) for nearly 1,900 Indonesian immigrants. The immigrants used these residency certifications to prove to the DMV that they lived at specific addresses in Northern Virginia when in fact the applicants lived elsewhere.

With regard to labor certification fraud, the government alleges that three of the defendants prepared fraudulent applications for labor certification on behalf of Indonesian immigrants seeking to remain in the United States. These applications claimed that the defendants intended to hire the immigrants for jobs no U.S. workers were willing or qualified to fill. Had the applications been approved, the immigrants in question would have been issued a green card and allowed to work and remain in the United States legally. The government, however, found that much of the information in the applications was false, including the existence of the job, the qualifications of the immigrant, and the immigrant’s intended U.S. address.

The investigation was conducted by a task force of federal and state law enforcement agencies. The participating agencies include the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (Department of Homeland Security), the Fairfax County Police Department, the Diplomatic Security Service (Department of State), the Department of Labor, the Internal Revenue Service (Department of Treasury), the Social Security Administration, the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles, the United States Postal Inspection Service, the Secret Service (Department of Homeland Security), and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (Department of Justice). The task force received important assistance from several other agencies including the Office of Refugee, Asylum, and International Operations within Citizenship and Immigration Services (Department of Homeland Security); the Executive Office for Immigration Review (Department of Justice); the Virginia Employment Commission; and the Employment and Training Administration (Department of Labor).

Assistant United States Attorneys John Morton, Michael Rich, Rebeca Bellows, and David Laufman, and Special Assistant United States Attorney Beth Gibson are prosecuting the case for the government.
Nusantara
I hope indonesia goverment will not let them set a foot in indonesia after a lot of fake stories they were telling to the world.
Let them become stateless and countryless person like gypsy in europe.

People like this everywhere they will treat like rat. Shame on them gypsy rat people!
Wulandari
It is not just Chinese descents, East Timor people, Aceh people and Christians who are persecuted, raped, murdered in Indonesia, PAPUAN people are also experience genocide.

I found the latest news from BBC news about Papuans who are seeking asylum in Australia because they were persecuted by our people.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4630474.stm



QUOTE
Jakarta warns on Papua refugees


Indonesia has said ties with Australia could be strained if Canberra offers asylum to boat people claiming rights abuses in the province of Papua.

A government spokesman said the move "could disturb bilateral relations".

He was speaking two days after 43 people from Indonesia's eastern Papua province, including several children, reached northern Australia on a canoe.

Papua has been home to an ongoing separatist struggle since Indonesia took over in the 1960s.

Indonesian Foreign Ministry spokesman Yuri Thamrin said on Friday that Australia risked attracting a wave of boat people from Papua if it granted asylum to the 43 people.

Mr Thamrin also said that accepting their claims of abuses "could strengthen perceptions in Indonesia that there are parties in and around (Australia) who support or express sympathy for separatism".

The Papuans - who reportedly include leading pro-independence activists - arrived on Australia's northernmost Cape York Peninsula on Wednesday.

The group was reported to be carrying a banner that accused Indonesia of genocide in Papua.

Indonesia gained sovereignty over Papua - a former Dutch colony - in 1969.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/worl...fic/4630474.stm

Published: 2006/01/20 07:28:15 GMT

© BBC MMVI





I hope those Papuans can gain asylum in Australia. If not, once they come back to Indonesia, they will be raped, murdered, tortured by our barbaric military people.

icon_sad.gif
chilli21
^yeah, there is a fuss about indonesian officers setting foot on australian soil. the aust government quickly denied that too.
Wulandari
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 21 2006, 08:49 PM)
^yeah, there is a fuss about indonesian officers setting foot on australian soil. the aust government quickly denied that too.
*







Yes, it is about taking care good relations between neighborhood countries.

But, if the problems are too bad, such as: massacree thousands of East Timor people in 1999, Australia will not stay quiet. In 1999, Australia sent troops, leading other troops from other countries on East Timor soil to save East Timor people from being slaughtered by barbaric Indonesian military and militias pro Indonesia.


********************


Talking about Papuans who asked asylum to Australia, here is the latest news.


The Jakarta Post, Januaray 22, 2006

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detaillatest...21121020&irec=4


QUOTE

Australia presses Indonesia over Papua shooting


SYDNEY, Australia (AFP): Australia asked Indonesia on Saturday for information about a shooting in troubled Papua province which, activists say, could have been a reprisal attack after 43 refugees fled to Australia.

Indonesian police said security forces shot dead a high school student and wounded two men in a clash Friday with angry residents in the Waghete area, but an Indonesian rights group charges that four students were killed.

A teenager who died, according to both accounts, was Moses Douw, 13, said by activists to be a close relative of one of the refugees who landed in northern Australia on Wednesday.

The refugees reportedly include prominent pro-independence activists, and their boat featured a large sign claiming military oppression in Papua, a former Dutch colony that Indonesia took over in the 1960s.

Attorney-General Philip Ruddock said Australia's embassy in Jakarta had asked for urgent clarification of the shooting from the Indonesian government.

"And obviously we've asked our diplomatic representatives to obtain the appropriate report for us," he said.

Ruddock declined to comment about any possible link between the shooting and the asylum seekers.

"You're talking about issues that might be raised in the context of asylum claims and I'm simply saying they are not matters about which it is appropriate for me to comment," he said.

Benny Giay, chairman of the Indonesian human rights group ELSHAM, told The Sydney Morning Herald four students were killed when they were ambushed on their way to school in what appeared to be an unprovoked attack.

A sporadic and low-level separatist insurgency has rumbled on in Papua for decades, with many Papuans upset over their share of revenue from the province's resources and amid allegations of human rights abuses.


The arrival of the 43 Papuan refugees threatens to upset delicate Australian-Indonesia relations at a time when the two countries are negotiating a new security treaty that is expected to include a pledge by Canberra not to interfere in provinces like Papua. (***)





If barbaric Indonesian military can murder 4 children with cold blood, we can imagine the level of brutalities that those animals can do to East Timor people, Chinese descents, Aceh people, Christians and Papuans and other victims.

icon_sad.gif



I am happy that we have a strong and brave neighborhood country like Australia.

If not, all of us, ordinary Indonesians, will become victims of Indonesian military's barbaric acts.

chilli21
^australia is not that strong in military, probably the indo army will win if it's one against one but soldiers are always brutal regardless of their race.

a few faked reports doesn't mean that the indo army is totally innocent.
tengkuafif
Chinese are desperate people. Talktohand.gif
chilli21
QUOTE(tengkuafif @ Jan 22 2006, 01:16 PM)
Chinese are desperate people. Talktohand.gif
*



what do you mean?
purnomor
QUOTE(Wulandari @ Jan 21 2006, 05:27 PM)
I hope those Papuans can gain asylum in Australia.


I don't think so, cockroach-boy.

These Papuan separatists have been moved to remote Christmas Island detention centre, 2600 kms away from Australian mainland. Christmas Island is where Australian govt banish unwanted illegal immigrants for a very long time (maybe decades) before being deported back to wherever they come from. Those asylum seekers with real prospects of being granted asylum are normally kept in Baxter detention centre in South Australia.

It seems Australian govt realise these separatists story is just bull$hit. They won't grant no asylum to them. Australia also do not want to become a centre for dark-skinned violent separatists like these people. Heck, they even deported back lots of Afghan war victims who actually have real case for asylum.

I think these separatists would spend a very long long long time in this island in the middle of nowhere, until they were forgotten. Then, most likely they'll be deported back to Indonesia.

Do you understand my words, boy?

user posted image
Christmas Island jail, Papuan separatists' new home
tengkuafif
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 22 2006, 11:30 AM)
what do you mean?
*



They would do anything evethough it sacrifices their dignity.
Wulandari
QUOTE(tengkuafif @ Jan 22 2006, 12:36 AM)
They would do anything evethough it sacrifices their dignity.
*







Another INDON NAZI.

Do you know the meaning of INDON NAZI, boy?


INDON means Malay or Indonesian people, your people and my people.

I am half Chinese and Half Indon, so I can say that I am Indon or Chinese too.



NAZI means a kind of racist people who hate other race by making up all kinds of false allegation. That kind of people are the same with cockroaches, very disgusting !!

It is you, boy !


A kind of INDON NAZI like you just give a bad name for all of us !!
Nusantara
QUOTE(Wulandari @ Jan 22 2006, 11:39 AM)
Another INDON NAZI.

Do you know the meaning of INDON NAZI, boy?
INDON means Malay or Indonesian people, your people and my people.

I am half Chinese and Half Indon, so I can say that I am Indon or Chinese too.
NAZI means a kind of racist people who hate other racist by making up all kinds of false allegation. That kind of people are the same with cockroaches, very disgusting !!

It is you, boy !
A kind of INDON NAZI like you just give a bad name for all of us !!
*



West papuan seperatist just small minority, they will be crushed like coackroach by Indonesians. They are just bunch of criminal no one care.
Wulandari
QUOTE(Nusantara @ Jan 22 2006, 12:44 PM)
West papuan seperatist just small minority, they will be crushed like coackroach by Indonesians. They are just bunch of criminal no one care.
*







confused.gif


I don't think Papuan separatist is small minority.

Give them referendum chance under UN supervision, and I believe majority of them will choose independence !
Nusantara
QUOTE(Wulandari @ Jan 22 2006, 11:54 AM)
confused.gif
I don't think Papuan separatist is small minority.

Give them referendum chance under UN supervision, and I believe majority of them will choose independence !
*


No one will care, dream on. Those criminals deserve no sympathys.
Wulandari
QUOTE(Nusantara @ Jan 22 2006, 12:59 PM)
No one will care, dream on. Those criminals deserve no sympathys.
*







I get it.

So, you agree with me that if Papuans get referendum chance under UN, they will choose independence. Right?
purnomor
QUOTE(Wulandari @ Jan 22 2006, 12:14 PM)
I get it.

So, you agree with me that if Papuans get referendum chance under UN, they will choose independence. Right?
*



Wrong, cockroach-boy

Papuans already democratically voted in a UN referendum in 1969, in accordance with the New York Agreement of 1962 between Republic of Indonesia and Kingdom of Netherlands (UN Resolution 1752). The Papuans voted unanimously to became part of Indonesia, a decision endorsed by UN General Assembly on 18 November 1969 (UN General Assembly Resolution XXIV).

Papua is internationally and legally recognised as an inseparable part of Indonesia.

PEPERA/ACT OF FREE CHOICE IN PAPUA



chilli21
QUOTE(tengkuafif @ Jan 22 2006, 03:36 PM)
They would do anything evethough it sacrifices their dignity.
*



and do u mean i'll do it also? sure.gif

QUOTE(tengkuafif @ Jan 22 2006, 01:16 PM)
Chinese are desperate people. Talktohand.gif
*


Wulandari
QUOTE(Nusantara @ Nov 24 2004, 12:50 AM)

*


By MATTHEW BARAKAT
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- A fraud ring operating in northern Virginia helped more than 1,000 Indonesian immigrants file bogus asylum applications in recent years, federal prosecutors said Monday.

Sixteen people were arrested Monday and 10 more are facing federal charges, including asylum fraud and labor-certification fraud.

The defendants all worked for companies that charged immigrants $2,000 or more to help them with fraudulent asylum claims or to improperly obtain labor certifications or identification documents like Virginia driver's licenses.

Applicants were coached to tell authorities they had been beaten or raped by Muslims in Indonesia because they were ethnic Chinese or Christians. Their applications contained bogus accounts of abuse that were identical on multiple applications.
"The stories of torture they fabricated were repeated word for word by immigrants who were coached to memorize them exactly," said U.S. Attorney Paul McNulty. McNulty's office has made immigration fraud a priority since the Sept. 11 attacks, when it was discovered that seven of the 19 hijackers had fraudulently obtained Virginia driver's licenses.

The ringleader, prosecutors say, was Hans Gouw, 53, of Fairfax Station, an Indonesian citizen who was himself granted asylum in 1999.

Gouw and his sister - also an Indonesian citizen who had been granted asylum - were directors of the Chinese Indonesian American Society, which purportedly sought to help Indonesians immigrate to the United States, according to a court affidavit.

The society regularly advertised in two U.S. magazines catering to Indonesians, with "customer representatives" across the country.

Gouw's lawyer, Dale Dover, declined to comment on the allegations Monday but said, "We appreciate the seriousness of these matters, and look forward to resolving the allegations."

Immigration officials said they will review the applications called into question and revoke asylum when appropriate.

Of the 26 facing charges, 23 were Indonesian, two were U.S. citizens and one is believed to be an Australian of Indonesian descent. Fifteen of the 23 Indonesians were granted asylum.









That is an interesting case in here, in America.

I talk alot with many Chinese descents and Indonesians who live /study/work in here.

Many Indonesians use this chance to whitewash all their racist acts against Chinese.

Many Chinese are very angry because Indonesians try to whitewash those racist acts.

****************


I talked with a Chinese descent who apply asylum. She said that actually what ever stories she makes, it won't be useful UNLESS you have evidences.

And the evidences come from so many news from many differrent news agencies in internet, like CNN, New York Times, BBC News and so on.

It means it is not true that Chinese descents make Indonesia's name look bad in other countries. Because those racist attacks against Chinese really happenned all over Indonesia.

It is just our people are too coward to take responsibility for our barbaric racist acts.

So shame !

chilli21
just go to yahoo and type in 'chinese indonesians' and there you go, it's all over the place.
purnomor
QUOTE(Wulandari @ Jan 23 2006, 09:26 PM)
I talk alot with many Chinese descents and Indonesians who live /study/work in here.


No, you don't

QUOTE
Many Indonesians use this chance to whitewash all their racist acts against Chinese.


No, they don't

QUOTE
I talked with a Chinese descent who apply asylum.


No, you did not

QUOTE
It means it is not true that Chinese descents make Indonesia's name look bad in other countries. Because those racist attacks against Chinese really happenned all over Indonesia.


The FBI have proven beyond doubt that most of these so-called "attacks" are just fabricated lies, made up in order to fraudulently gain asylum in USA. These kinds of fake stories are common amongst the thousands of people who applied for asylum each year to USA.

There are much more people who claimed asylum in the USA in order to escape persecution of Chinese communist government. The US granted many asylum to these poor Chinese who were truly repressed by their barbaric Chinese government, such as Falun Gong leader Li Hongzhi. The numbers of Chinese-Indonesian asylum seeker is nothing compared to the thousands of Chinese from China who are desperate to abandon their repressive country for USA each year.

Additionally, most of these Chinese-Indonesian asylum seekers are now serving time in US federal jails for telling bull$hit stories to US immigration. embarassedlaugh.gif

user posted image
Li Hongzhi, Chinese dissident and Falun Dafa leader granted asylum by USA

FALUN GONG MEMBERSHIP SHOULD BE GRANTED ASYLUM TO USA

CRUEL BARBARIC REPRESSION BY CHINESE GOVT AGAINST ITS OWN PEOPLE

No wonder so many citizens of China are seeking asylum in USA, the Chinese govt is incredibly cruel and barbaric at treating its own citizens. Indonesian govt is a saint compared to the barbaric Chinese communist govt.

I feel sorry for these asylum seekers from China...

icon_sad.gif
chilli21
QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 24 2006, 08:26 PM)
No wonder so many citizens of China are seeking asylum in USA, the Chinese govt is incredibly cruel and barbaric at treating its own citizens. Indonesian govt is a saint compared to the barbaric Chinese communist govt.
*



they're both at the same level when comes to human rights but in other areas, at least, the chinese government has more brain and is much more effective.
purnomor
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 26 2006, 04:44 AM)
they're both at the same level when comes to human rights but in other areas, at least, the chinese government has more brain and is much more effective.
*



A ruthless dictatorship is always more "effective" than a democracy sure.gif
chilli21
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 26 2006, 08:44 PM)
.....but in other areas, at least, the chinese government has more brain and is much more effective.
*



it doesn't has to do with ideology but individuals. try compare your country with other democratic ones.
purnomor
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 26 2006, 04:47 AM)
it doesn't has to do with ideology but individuals. try compare your country with other democratic ones.
*



Certainly we did much better than the fvked-up mess China when it emerged as a "democrazy" after the fall of Qing Dynasty in 1911 embarassedlaugh.gif
chilli21
QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 26 2006, 09:04 PM)
Certainly we did much better than the fvked-up mess China when it emerged as a "democrazy" after the fall of Qing Dynasty in 1911  embarassedlaugh.gif
*



eh.....one way to improve your country right now is to look at the present, not the past but if u still insist in travelling back in times, let's try the tang dynasty. beerchug.gif
purnomor
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 26 2006, 05:12 AM)
eh.....one way to improve your country right now is to look at the present, not the past but if u still insist in travelling back in times, let's try the tang dynasty.  beerchug.gif
*



Naah.. comparing Indonesia, a new democracy emerging from decades of dictatorship, with some ancient Chinese dynasty is not relevant. Comparing Indonesia's success with the fvked-up mess called China when it emerged as a "democrazy" after the fall of Qing Dynasty in 1911 is more apt. beerchug.gif
chilli21
QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 26 2006, 09:44 PM)
Naah.. comparing Indonesia, a new democracy emerging from decades of dictatorship, with some ancient Chinese dynasty is not relevant. Comparing Indonesia's success with the fvked-up mess called China when it emerged as a "democrazy" after the fall of Qing Dynasty in 1911 is more apt.  beerchug.gif
*



of course, u can't compare a modern country with a past one but u can still do a comparison if you put both of them in the same time frame. so where was indonesia when china was at its peak under the tang dynasty? beerchug.gif

and the other thing is i always think china is lucky to have a few good leaders given that the country is still under the ccp's rule. icon_smile.gif

purnomor
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 26 2006, 05:50 AM)
of course, u can't compare a modern country with a past one but u can still do a comparison if you put both of them in the same time frame. so where was indonesia when china was at its peak under the tang dynasty?  beerchug.gif


The days of Majapahit and Srivijayan Empires were comparable timeframes.

QUOTE
and the other thing is i always think china is lucky to have a few good leaders given that the country is still under the ccp's rule.  icon_smile.gif
*



For that, you should thank the Soviet Russians for funding and establishing the ideologically-strong CCP in 1921. BTW, the Comintern agent who established Chinese Communist Party in 1921, Henricus Sneevliet aka Maring, is also the same person who established Indonesian Communist Party, the oldest communist party in Asia, in 1914. beerchug.gif
chilli21
QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 26 2006, 09:57 PM)
The days of Majapahit and Srivijayan Empires were comparable timeframes.
*



it's a comparison btw tang's china and......


QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 26 2006, 09:57 PM)
For that, you should thank the Soviet Russians for funding and establishing the ideologically-strong CCP in 1921. BTW, the Comintern agent who established Chinese Communist Party in 1921, Henricus Sneevliet aka Maring, is also the same person who established Indonesian Communist Party, the oldest communist party in Asia, in 1914.  beerchug.gif
*



not the russians but the japanese, without them, the ccp would have benn defeated by chiang kai shek long ago. now, i guess japan is regretting probably. beerchug.gif
purnomor
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 26 2006, 06:19 AM)
it's a comparison btw tang's china and Majapahit/Srivijayan Indonesia


QUOTE
not the russians but the japanese, without them, the ccp would have benn defeated by chiang kai shek long ago. now, i guess japan is regretting probably.  beerchug.gif
*



Without the Japanese, Indonesia wouldn't have been able to declare independence and defend it from Dutch re-colonisation efforts. That's why the Japanese occupation is still remembered in a mostly fond light here in Indonesia.
chilli21
QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 26 2006, 10:27 PM)
Without the Japanese, Indonesia wouldn't have been able to declare independence and defend it from Dutch re-colonisation efforts. That's why the Japanese occupation is still remembered in a mostly fond light here in Indonesia.
*



couldn't the natives declare independence on their own?
purnomor
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 26 2006, 06:45 AM)
couldn't the natives declare independence on their own?
*



The Dutch cruelly crushed all pre-war independence movements. Our first president Sukarno got exiled to a remote island for twelve years before he was released by the Japanese.
chilli21
QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 26 2006, 10:51 PM)
The Dutch cruelly crushed all pre-war independence movements. Our first president Sukarno got exiled to a remote island for twelve years before he was released by the Japanese.
*



do people like sukarno?
purnomor
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 26 2006, 06:44 PM)
do people like sukarno?
*



Extremely popular, his favourite habit is to drive around in his open-cupola car. Wherever he went, he always attracted adoring crowds, including my dad biggthumpup.gif
chilli21
QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 27 2006, 02:49 PM)
Extremely popular, his favourite habit is to drive around in his open-cupola car. Wherever he went, he always attracted adoring crowds, including my dad  biggthumpup.gif
*



your dad was a native indo, right?
purnomor
QUOTE(chilli21 @ Jan 26 2006, 11:10 PM)
your dad was a native indo, right?
*



no, he's Chinese. Even ethnic-Chinese adored him biggthumpup.gif
chilli21
QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 27 2006, 03:11 PM)
no, he's Chinese. Even ethnic-Chinese adored him  biggthumpup.gif
*



anyway, his rule was eventually taken over by the other guy.
CuteyBunny
Wow, lucky I didnt lie when I had my interview.
Wulandari
QUOTE(purnomor @ Jan 24 2006, 05:26 AM) *


The FBI have proven beyond doubt that most of these so-called "attacks" are just fabricated lies, made up in order to fraudulently gain asylum in USA. These kinds of fake stories are common amongst the thousands of people who applied for asylum each year to USA.


There are much more people who claimed asylum in the USA in order to escape persecution of Chinese communist government. The US granted many asylum to these poor Chinese who were truly repressed by their barbaric Chinese government, such as Falun Gong leader Li Hongzhi. The numbers of Chinese-Indonesian asylum seeker is nothing compared to the thousands of Chinese from China who are desperate to abandon their repressive country for USA each year.

Additionally, most of these Chinese-Indonesian asylum seekers are now serving time in US federal jails for telling bull$hit stories to US immigration. embarassedlaugh.gif

IPB Image
Li Hongzhi, Chinese dissident and Falun Dafa leader granted asylum by USA

FALUN GONG MEMBERSHIP SHOULD BE GRANTED ASYLUM TO USA

CRUEL BARBARIC REPRESSION BY CHINESE GOVT AGAINST ITS OWN PEOPLE

No wonder so many citizens of China are seeking asylum in USA, the Chinese govt is incredibly cruel and barbaric at treating its own citizens. Indonesian govt is a saint compared to the barbaric Chinese communist govt.

I feel sorry for these asylum seekers from China...

icon_sad.gif







The FBI has proven that anti Chinese attacks in Indonesia are lies?

confused.gif

What is the relation between FBI (American Agency) with Indon's anti Chinese attacks?

You are trying to twist the facts again, punk?

FBI takes care America's problems, not Indon's problems.

Give the the internet link explaining that anti Chinese attacks in May 1998 are lies, based on FBI investigation

Becareful, punk...

If you twist the facts again, I will disclose your dirty manipulation, AS USUAL

Understood?


*****************************


I don't care about asylum seeker from China.

It is not my problem.

We are talking about Chinese asylum seeker from Indon who are persecuted by barbaric military people, corrupt government officials and majority Indons, like you, punk (purnomor)

Are you trying to divert the problem FROM Chinese asylum seekers from Indon TO mumbo jumbo asylum seekers from China?

Yes?
Nusantara
QUOTE(Wulandari @ Apr 4 2006, 09:09 PM) *

The FBI has proven that anti Chinese attacks in Indonesia are lies?

confused.gif

What is the relation between FBI (American Agency) with Indon's anti Chinese attacks?

You are trying to twist the facts again, punk?

FBI takes care America's problems, not Indon's problems.

Give the the internet link explaining that anti Chinese attacks in May 1998 are lies, based on FBI investigation

Becareful, punk...

If you twist the facts again, I will disclose your dirty manipulation, AS USUAL

Understood?
*****************************
I don't care about asylum seeker from China.

It is not my problem.

We are talking about Chinese asylum seeker from Indon who are persecuted by barbaric military people, corrupt government officials and majority Indons, like you, punk (purnomor)

Are you trying to divert the problem FROM Chinese asylum seekers from Indon TO mumbo jumbo asylum seekers from China?

Yes?


What you are trying to prove? no one denied there were anti chinese riot during 1998.
The riot was used by Asylum seekers into western countries to justify their illegal and overstayed status, to the point they keep repeating stories Indonesia always like 1998 riot condition even till now.
Wulandari
QUOTE(Nusantara @ Apr 4 2006, 10:24 PM) *

What you are trying to prove? no one denied there were anti chinese riot during 1998.
The riot was used by Asylum seekers into western countries to justify their illegal and overstayed status, to the point they keep repeating stories Indonesia always like 1998 riot condition even till now.





It is not just illegal Chinese in America who claimed asylum because of racist riots in 1998, many legal Chinese have been applying asylum since 1998 until today. Hundreds of Chinese in America and Canada gained asylum.

I see......

Majority Indons still don't feel guilty for their racist attacks against Chinese. And not a single rapist was prosecuted by corrupt Indon legal system. As a result, racist attacks against Chinese will easily happen again in the future, as already happened hundreds of times in the past.


Nusantara
QUOTE(Wulandari @ Apr 9 2006, 01:00 PM) *

It is not just illegal Chinese in America who claimed asylum because of racist riots in 1998, many legal Chinese have been applying asylum since 1998 until today. Hundreds of Chinese in America and Canada gained asylum.

I see......

Majority Indons still don't feel guilty for their racist attacks against Chinese. And not a single rapist was prosecuted by corrupt Indon legal system. As a result, racist attacks against Chinese will easily happen again in the future, as already happened hundreds of times in the past.


I don't give a damn If It is not just illegal but also legal Chinese seeking asylum in America and Canada till today. If they think that's good for them go head, that's their own life.
The problem arise when they use fake stories to justify their reason seeking asylum. I think many immigration officer in western countries now getting aware about their scenarios.

Do you have your sources about racist attack against chinese in Indonesia happened hundreds of times. Show me the link. I would like to counting it whether it happened hundreds of times or not as you said.
LaoShare
QUOTE(Nusantara @ Apr 9 2006, 03:02 PM) *

I don't give a damn If It is not just illegal but also legal Chinese seeking asylum in America and Canada till today. If they think that's good for them go head, that's their own life.
The problem arise when they use fake stories to justify their reason seeking asylum. I think many immigration officer in western countries now getting aware about their scenarios.

Do you have your sources about racist attack against chinese in Indonesia happened hundreds of times. Show me the link. I would like to counting it whether it happened hundreds of times or not as you said.


Nu Nu, are you a real Indonesian asking those fake questions?

Please take off your kaca hitam. Are you trying to hide those mata sipit?

If you haven't mandi dengan air suci, try it.
It might do you some good and wake you up to the real world.

Mau link? You bisa pecaya?

Kenapa Hati nja keras betulsi?

Kalau orang hatinja sebagai begitu keras, hadap orang sediri yuga pasti keras!

Saja nanggis untuk mu. bawling.gif
Nusantara
QUOTE(LaoShare @ Apr 9 2006, 06:22 PM) *

Nu Nu, are you a real Indonesian asking those fake questions?

Please take off your kaca hitam. Are you trying to hide those mata sipit?

If you haven't mandi dengan air suci, try it.
It might do you some good and wake you up to the real world.


There are many Indonesian have mata sipit, maybe to put "many" not apopriate here but there are some but It does not mean they are chinese.
But I do have cousins genetically half chinese since my uncle married chinese girl from Medan. I think I have mentioned in this forum before? I am just to lazy to search. yet I doubt my cousins feel associates as chinese except the language they are able to speak, they even read Quran in some point better than me.

Air suci? Naaah. of course you mandi with air.
LaoShare
QUOTE(Nusantara @ Apr 9 2006, 03:42 PM) *

Air suci? Naaah. of course you mandi with air.


That was a difficult word for me.

However in term of Theology, there is nothing wrong with it.

But honestly, Nu, please drop those racial hate talk.

I agree with you that of course there is people misuse asylum, however to deny even one single rape killing of Chinese is totally unacceptable.

Believe me, you would not like it if we Chinese do that (rape killing) to your people some day, right?
Nusantara
QUOTE(LaoShare @ Apr 9 2006, 07:08 PM) *

That was a difficult word for me.

However in term of Theology, there is nothing wrong with it.

But honestly, Nu, please drop those racial hate talk.

I agree with you that of course there is people misuse asylum, however to deny even one single rape killing of Chinese is totally unacceptable.

Believe me, you would not like it if we Chinese do that (rape killing) to your people some day, right?


I am not really interst debating about theology, i need reading some about it first.


In my real life I never have any problem with anyone, only in AF some deluded chinese trying taking credit for almost everything what Indonesian achieve and look down upon my people.
So that's why sometimes I was emphasizing using the word Indos for what Indonesian achieve. Next time when they trying to hijacking word Indos I will use Indons. I know some people does not like that word but that is the only way they won't taking credit to everythings. Sound racial talking but that's the only way.

You could draw this conclution:
Bintan island, Bengkalis, Singkep, Lingga, Bangka and Belitung island are very harmonic villages and peace place where and when only local native and chinese living around that place.
Easily you find chinese wandering on foot or using their bycycle or motorcycle from village to village working their @$$ to bring rice on the table it is very common sight just like local native did.
It won't be the same for Bintan island now since many newcomer from other provinces coming and change the balances.

If you live in Java or Jakarta you won't believe me about this, I understand that, since I am in Depok or Jakarta I do not see any chinese live in village side by side with local native, don't know why? I think it is because education eventhough we live in village but most the family of the villager in my place sent their kids to university at least to local University in capital regency. Many of my friend now continuing graduate degree in capital regency or capital province. Or perhaps It is their superiority genes which they do not want to abuse anyone in weaker situation.

You can comparing that villages above and by just go to village in Citayam or Bojong gede It is just about 10 km south of Depok (I guess Depok is center of education), I bet you if you can find chinese live side by side without high fences surrounding your house let alone they accepting you live side by side with them without daily harasment. and That is just 10 km outside of depok.
swingdoctor
Nusantara, are you from Bintan?
Went there for a holiday, very nice.
LaoShare
I am glad if that is the case.

My side of family immigrated to Jakarta from China in 1955 and all are in Canada now except my grandma left inside Tanabang's soil.

My wife side families immigrated to those islands you mention, hundreds of years ago.
I kind of understand what you mean.

Up untill my earlier postings last years, I was still very upset with the situation in Jakarta for my friends who suffered and died because of it.

Quite frankly, since the Riot, I have look deep into the good and bad in human and for months and hundreds of hours spent talking to forumers in China explaining that it was not the general public Indonesians that raped the Chinese but it was only a very small number of out of control/used extremist Indonesian.

Basically I blame us Human.

Few weeks ago we bought a golden retriever puppy.
Although the puppy miss his families and keeps me awake all night but when I see him wagging and dancing to greed me in the morning, I feel is all worth it. All love and no hate.

The puppy reminds me that animal only kills for food but we human murder each other because of hate; and maybe that turns us to our God/Gods for helps.
Wulandari
QUOTE(Nusantara @ Apr 9 2006, 07:02 PM) *

I don't give a damn If It is not just illegal but also legal Chinese seeking asylum in America and Canada till today. If they think that's good for them go head, that's their own life.
The problem arise when they use fake stories to justify their reason seeking asylum. I think many immigration officer in western countries now getting aware about their scenarios.

Do you have your sources about racist attack against chinese in Indonesia happened hundreds of times. Show me the link. I would like to counting it whether it happened hundreds of times or not as you said.





You don't know how Asylum process works in America and Canada, do you?

Let me explain to you, punk !

In America, you can get asylum, if you or your family experience persecution IN THE PAST based on race, religion, group and so on.

Or, you can get asylum, if you and your family have a chance to experience persecution IN THE FUTURE, based on race, religion, group and so on.

So, people in America and Canada don't need to experience persecution from Indons based on race IN THE PAST, but, as long as they can give strong reasons that they will experience racial persecution from Indons IN THE FUTURE, they will get asylum.

Is it clear now, punk?


********************


I give you one of many racist attacks news against Chinese by Indons.


http://www.colorq.org/HumanRights/Indonesia/anti_Chinese.htm


QUOTE
May 1998


CHINESE INDONESIAN APPEALS FOR HELP!


Witnesses said the mob shouted "Let's wipe out the Chinese" and "Let's kill the Chinese" as they rampaged through. Indonesia's ethnic Chinese are a frequent target during times of hardship due to their perceived wealth in the largely Moslem nation and control of local commerce. (Reuters, 13 May 1998)

At least 10 people died in riots in Jakarta Wednesday, nine of them believed to be Chinese burned when mobs set their shops and homes on fire, residents in the western area of the Indonesian capital said. (CNN, 13 May 1998)

Much of the most recent violence in Indonesia has been targeted at the Chinese community. Chinese-owned shops in north and west Jakarta were looted and set ablaze on Wednesday night. Reports have confirmed that nine people were killed when a bar was set on fire overnight in the city's Chinese quarter. (BBC News, 14 May 1998)

Recently, anti-Chinese ethnic turbulence has been spread in some areas in Indonesia, and the worst riot hit in Jakarta, the capital city of Indonesia, on May 13, 1998. On the May 1998 alone, there were several riots that were followed by looting, killing, raping and other violent acts against Chinese Indonesians and also the destruction of churches and other Chinese owned buildings in Indonesia.


In early May 1998, riots had taken place in Medan, and in the following days they began spreading to several big cities in Indonesia, namely Jakarta, Solo, Palembang, Surabaya, Yogyakarta and Ujung Pandang. These riots have turned into anti-Chinese pogroms similar to past incidents that often happened in Indonesia. Since the year of 1966, the ethnic Chinese in Indonesia have been the target of inhumane murder and pillage by the indigenous Indonesians. Not less than half a million of the Chinese ethnic minority in Indonesia were killed. They lost countless wealth to looting by indigenous Indonesians. All this happened without any regard from the Indonesian government.

Now, apparently all of these incidents would not be the last but may be rekindled in the near future. As observed from these incidents, the anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia was apparently derived from political issues - not from social issues as some indigenous politicians claim. Some powerful political groups have succeeded in implementing anti-Chinese doctrine in Indonesia, casting the Chinese Indonesians as the target of the indigenous Indonesians as part their political rhetoric.

These ideas are present in many statements which attempt to scapegoat the ethnic Chinese whenever there was a political problem, as well as in the recent crisis in Indonesia. Regretfully the statements were mostly issued by some leaders of intellectual religious organizations and even some higher government officials

It is not impossible that all of anti-Chinese incidents were mobilized by a powerful politic organization in Indonesia. Some of their statements are noted below:

1. During a press release broadcast on the television last year, one of the Ministers from Cabinet VI who also as a member of the People's Advisory Assembly (a parliamentary faction), Mr.Azwar Anas from Golkar said that "If Chinese Indonesian would not help the indigenous (Indonesian), are they not (Chinese Indonesian) asking to be looted?"

2. In early 1998, Mr. Aburizal Bakrie (the owner of Bakrie Group Company, an indigenous Indonesian conglomerate in Indonesia, also as a member of parliamentary faction from Golkar and the chairman of the Indonesian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, pointed out that "This the right time to distribute Chinese Indonesian wealth to the indigenous (Indonesian)" during the parliamentary faction meeting.

3. In February '98 powerful Moslem leaders and generals (including a close relative of the president) openly denounced the Chinese and Christians as the country's enemies who "packed with foreign countries" to conspire against Indonesia, bringing the national currency (Rupiah) to its collapse. Their denouncement opened the floodgate for the rioting on 2/14/97 in North coastal area of Central Java, during which 6 churches were burned
.

Beside the above statements, some improper actions taken by the Indonesian government regarding to the anti-Chinese incidents in Indonesia indicate that the political movements behind the anti-Chinese riots involve some powerful leaders of the armed forces as well as high-ranking government officials. These actual actions taken by the Indonesian government support the facts :

1. Pictures taken during the riots showed very clearly that there were no serious exertion from the police and army forces to contain the riots, not until the rioters had finished looting, killing and raping the Chinese Indonesians and burning their buildings, including churches. This is very ironic if we looked upon the student demonstrations which was limited mainly to the campus. The students were surrounded by large numbers of fully-armored police and soldiers, and even armored vehicles. The state of alert was as if they were in a war zone. On the contrary, during life-threatening incidents targeting Chinese Indonesians, there were only a few policeman watching the rioters as they violently pillaged and murdered. The police did not provide any reaction as they allowed the rioters to conduct such things. Some pictures taken show a number of police or army troopers who came after the rioters had done their evil, who did not arrest the rioters and even treated the rioters with friendliness, giving them the greeting gesture.

2. After looking at these incidents, all normal human beings must agree that people who loot, kill, rape, and burn churches are criminals and should be sentenced severely. Up to now, there is no serious indication from the Indonesian government that these crimimals would be prosecuted.

We are the Chinese Indonesians would like to ask for helping hand from all of the International Communities who care about the life and death of Chinese Indonesians in Indonesia which are now living in fear and danger

1. Too many Chinese Indonesians have been the victims of violence even murder by indigenous Indonesian in Indonesia.
2. Too many Chinese Indonesian girls and women have been the victim of rraping by indigenous Indonesians in front of public view in Indonesia
3. Too many churches have been destroyed and burned to ashes by indigenous Indonesians in Indonesia.

To avoid the same incident on the future, we the Chinese Indonesians call on all International Communities to do the following:

1. Condemn the acts of violence that conducted by some indigenous Indonesian s on the Chinese Indonesians in Indonesia.
2. Condemn the act of destroying the churches that conducted by some indigenous Indonesians in Indonesia.
3. Press the Indonesian government to conduct an investigation and exercise the law to the perpetrators who were involved directly or indirectly in the incidents which targeted the Chinese Indonesian and/or churches.
4. Presssure the Indonesian government to make guarantees that no such racial incidents will be happen to the Indonesia Chinese in Indonesia anymore.
5. Address the Indonesian government that Indonesia will be put under a trade embargo or other sanctions if such racial incidents ever happen again to the Chinese Indonesians in Indonesia.

Finally, we hope that our voice would be heard by the International Community, from the deepest of love we thank your for your cares.
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