Hello, Everybody there!
I got an idea of a Japanese Peopling Framework, based on Y-chromosome DNA data, as shown below.
Paleolithic Down to circa 14,000 BCE
C1-M8 5.40% Hunters Stone Post God
Cordmark/Jomon Pottery Circa 14,000-1,000 BCE (Northern Kyushu)
D2-P37.1* 3.90% Jomon Gatherers-Food Keepers Salt God
D2a-M116.1 16.60% Jomon Gatherers-Food Keepers Salt God
D2a1-M125* 12.00% Jomon Gatherers-Food Keepers Salt God
D2a1a-P42 2.30% Jomon Gatherers-Food Keepers Salt God
Early Yayoi Circa 900-800 BCE (Northern Kyushu)
O3-M122* 6.60% Liaoning Dajingzi Copper Miners Yan Millet Farmers Huang/Tu God
Bronze Bell Casters
Former Yayoi Circa 800-400 BCE (Northern Kyushu)
O3a3-LINE1 3.10% Wu Emigrant/Emigre Yangze Delta Paddy Farmers Fuxi-Nuwa
Middle Yayoi Circa 400-1 BCE (Northern Kyushu)
Duck Totem
N1c1-M178 0.40% Dapple Horse Dinglings/Samus Bronze Dagger Casters
(Susanowo-Yama God)
Late Yayoi Circa 1 - 200 AD
O2a-M95* 1.90% Yue Emigrant/Emigre Navigators
Under-Water Cult
O2b-SRY 7.70% Duck (Yenisei) Alligator Catchers "O"
Tonglushan Copper Miners
O2b1-47z 22.00% Amur Wa/Okcho
Wolf Totem
N1-LLY22g* 1.20% Proto-GokTurk Iron Smiths
Deer Totem
C3c-M86 1.20% Trans-Baikal Deer Herders Yemaek
Swan Totem (Yama/Susanowo)
C3-M217* 1.90% Cis-Baikal Horse Pasturaists Ye
Circa 369 AD (Ojin aka "Hormusta" Dynasty Wa-Baekje Pact/Seven Branch Sword)
NO-M214* 2.30% Qiangic Xi-rongs Emigre from Qi State
O3a3c-M134 10.40% Emigre Qins from Qin Empire Light Industry Masters
R-M207 0.40% Kushan Merchants/Scriptures Translaters
(Certain faction of them called Uars, Hephthalites might have entered
yet earlier in Late Yayoi.)
Circa 507-531 AD Keitai Dynasty
Q-P36 0.40% Proto-Uigur/Kets/Dome Chamber Tumuli Designers
Circa 538-710 AD Asuka Period
I-P19 0.40% Kushan/Roman Masons, Gardeners, Designers
Following Mongolian classification by anthropological clusters might effectively be applied to above Japanese YDNA based classification:
Comparison of Asian Bronze and Early Iron Age populations shows that these populations are divided into five major clusters except for the population from Manchuria.
Yenisei/Amur Wa O2b-SRY O2b1-47z Alligator Catching/Waterfront Economy - Duck Myth/River Cult
The first cluster combines most of the populations from West Mongolia, the Altai mountain region, South Siberia, Korea and Japan (Yayoi period), but in turn the first cluster divides into three subclusters.
Tu/Tufang O3-M122* Liaoning Yan Bronze Bell Casters
The second cluster includes populations from Inner Mongolia, Central and Northwest China.
Yuezhi R-M207 Yuezhi Greater/Minor (Uar/Hephthalite)
The populations from Altai (Afanasevo culture), North Kazakhstan (Usunian culture) and South Siberia (Minusinsk culture) belong to the third cluster.
Yemaek C3c-M86 Trans-Baikal Deer Herders
The populations from the slab grave culture from East Mongolia and Karasuk culture from Central Tuva belong to the fourth cluster.
Ye C3-M217* Cis-Baikal Horse Pasturalists
The fifth cluster combines the populations from Cis-Baikalia (slab grave culture), Minusinsk (Okunev culture) and West Mongolia (culture of graves with no inventory).
The separation of Bronze Age populations from Northeast Asia into several clusters and subclusters may show intensive intermingling of the Caucasoid and Mongoloid populations during this historical period.
http://www.hovsgoltravel.com/mongolia10.html
Full Version: YDNA Migration China > Mongolia > Korea > Japan
Suwa city in Central Highland of Japan comes from Khakasian Sve, a mountain fortification unit, but it functions as Mongolian Spring Ovoo and Road Ovoo and served for exchange point of Pacific salt and West coast dried fish.
Establishment of such barter system throughout the archipelago was the main target for national economy when Altai-Korean emigrants at first embarked ashore the Japanese islands.
Establishment of such barter system throughout the archipelago was the main target for national economy when Altai-Korean emigrants at first embarked ashore the Japanese islands.
Wei's chronicle about Japan reports that Japanese said they are from Donye-Kuaiji (near Shanghai) and one of their ancestors was Wu Taibo.
But I think this was simply what then Wei ambassador was told by convoy oarsmen on their trip to Yamatai-guo.
In reality there might have been a lot of other tribes on the archipelago.
But I think this was simply what then Wei ambassador was told by convoy oarsmen on their trip to Yamatai-guo.
In reality there might have been a lot of other tribes on the archipelago.
^
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 13 2010, 12:32 PM) 
^
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
MMM --- Afraid Im a bit irrelevant.
Late Yayoi Circa 1 - 200 AD O2a-M95* 1.90% Yue Emigrant/Emigre Navigator
This apparently Yue like clade may be always accompanying O2b everywhere in the world, even in ancient Kazakhstan or Yakutia.
In case of Japan, they are navigators and purporting to be Tengri Bird Progeny, feathers on head and oars in arms in a boat.
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Jul 12 2010, 10:43 PM)
MMM --- Afraid Im a bit irrelevant.
Late Yayoi Circa 1 - 200 AD O2a-M95* 1.90% Yue Emigrant/Emigre Navigator
This apparently Yue like clade may be always accompanying O2b everywhere in the world, even in ancient Kazakhstan or Yakutia.
In case of Japan, they are navigators and purporting to be Tengri Bird Progeny, feathers on head and oars in arms in a boat.
Late Yayoi Circa 1 - 200 AD O2a-M95* 1.90% Yue Emigrant/Emigre Navigator
This apparently Yue like clade may be always accompanying O2b everywhere in the world, even in ancient Kazakhstan or Yakutia.
In case of Japan, they are navigators and purporting to be Tengri Bird Progeny, feathers on head and oars in arms in a boat.
No.Yangtze delta haven't found any O2 till now, from ancient site to modern population.
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 13 2010, 12:32 PM)
^
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
Yes, it was so. Few of them.
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 13 2010, 12:49 PM)
No.Yangtze delta haven't found any O2 till now, from ancient site to modern population.
Really? The Alligater State, one of the triplet states of Shang, the owner of Tonglunshan Copper Mine, the alligator catchers?
Yangtze Delta do not have copper mine.
So I think u mean some copper mine in the middle of Yangtze River?
So I think u mean some copper mine in the middle of Yangtze River?
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 13 2010, 01:37 PM)
Yangtze Delta do not have copper mine.
So I think u mean some copper mine in the middle of Yangtze River?
So I think u mean some copper mine in the middle of Yangtze River?
Yes, a bit upstream and a bit older in historical and cultural ages. Of course nobody can tell anything without extracting DNA from
ancient remains.
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Jul 13 2010, 02:09 PM)
Yes, a bit upstream and a bit older in historical and cultural ages. Of course nobody can tell anything without extracting DNA from
ancient remains.
ancient remains.
For Alligator state, click > http://www.qjren.com/showtopic-53855.html
Nah, even till today those O2a still do not have a significant influence to the Yangtze Delta.And considering Japanese do not have significant O1 rate
So I do not think there is such an immigration from Yangtze Delta to Japan.
Talk about paddy, Japanese rice gene is different from mainland, which means japan's rice cultivation has its own origin.
So I do not think there is such an immigration from Yangtze Delta to Japan.
QUOTE
O3a3-LINE1 3.10% Wu Emigrant/Emigre Yangze Delta Paddy Farmers Fuxi-Nuwa
Talk about paddy, Japanese rice gene is different from mainland, which means japan's rice cultivation has its own origin.
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 13 2010, 02:43 PM)
Nah, even till today those O2a still do not have a significant influence to the Yangtze Delta.And considering Japanese do not have significant O1 rate
So I do not think there is such an immigration from Yangtze Delta to Japan.
Talk about paddy, Japanese rice gene is different from mainland, which means japan's rice cultivation has its own origin.
So I do not think there is such an immigration from Yangtze Delta to Japan.
Talk about paddy, Japanese rice gene is different from mainland, which means japan's rice cultivation has its own origin.
I'm of opinion that circa 1000 BCE Moderate Japonica left Yueshi Culture of Shangdong and settled at Liaodong, then spread to south of Korea and north of Kyushu.
http://www.geocities.jp/ikoh12/honnronn2/0...akunokigenn.jpg
Tropical Japonica and Indica are younger developed species, younger sisters.
My Altaian ethnolinguistic hypothesis is that under influence of Indoeuropean and Uralic langueges C3-M217*/O2b-SRY
community in Altai/Yenisei highland developed Altaian Language and carried it with them through Mongolia, Manchuria, Korea to Japan
and this Altaianization of Korea and Japan had taken place in late Mummun/Yayoi periods. However, at that time due to the presence
of Lelang Commandery, Korean language had stricter influence from Chinese language than Japanese.
community in Altai/Yenisei highland developed Altaian Language and carried it with them through Mongolia, Manchuria, Korea to Japan
and this Altaianization of Korea and Japan had taken place in late Mummun/Yayoi periods. However, at that time due to the presence
of Lelang Commandery, Korean language had stricter influence from Chinese language than Japanese.
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Jul 13 2010, 01:33 AM)
My Altaian ethnolinguistic hypothesis is that under influence of Indoeuropean and Uralic langueges C3-M217*/O2b-SRY
community in Altai/Yenisei highland developed Altaian Language and carried it with them through Mongolia, Manchuria, Korea to Japan
and this Altaianization of Korea and Japan had taken place in late Mummun/Yayoi periods. However, at that time due to the presence
of Lelang Commandery, Korean language had stricter influence from Chinese language than Japanese.
community in Altai/Yenisei highland developed Altaian Language and carried it with them through Mongolia, Manchuria, Korea to Japan
and this Altaianization of Korea and Japan had taken place in late Mummun/Yayoi periods. However, at that time due to the presence
of Lelang Commandery, Korean language had stricter influence from Chinese language than Japanese.
What your saying sounds really interesting, but I'm only understanding 30% of it. Can you explain your thoughts in laymen's terms?
QUOTE (chiuchimu @ Jul 14 2010, 07:14 AM)
What your saying sounds really interesting, but I'm only understanding 30% of it. Can you explain your thoughts in laymen's terms?
Korean pronounciation of Chinese chacters is more precise than Japanese pronounciation of Chinerse characters. Quite often I think Confucius
might have somthing Donyi in his blood when he said he would cross the sea towards the land of Dongyi on a raft.
QUOTE (chiuchimu @ Jul 14 2010, 07:14 AM)
What your saying sounds really interesting, but I'm only understanding 30% of it. Can you explain your thoughts in laymen's terms?
For layman, myself being under-layman:
Japanese people are all immigrants, which is true for all regions except Africa. They are:
Mongoloid
Paleolithic-Pottery Age Aboriginese
C1 Ainu-like
D2 Gatheresr-Conservers
Mongolia-Korea Bronze-Iron Age Immigrants
C3 Altai
C3c East Mongolia/Manchuria
O2a Upper Yangze Bafang
O2b Middle Huanghe (Shang) Alligator Clan
O3 Liaohe Xinglongwa Progeny Tufang
O3a3 Middle Yangze Wu Emigre
O3a3c Middle Huanghe Qin Emigre
N1c1 Yenisei Bronze Casters
N1 Central Asia Iron Smiths
NO Hyksos West Qiang Qijia Horse Breeders Sheepherders
Non-Mongoloid
R Iranian-like Scythian Caucasoid
I Anglosaxon-like Scythian Caucasoid
Q Furrian, Tatar Native American-like people
Yangtze - what is Wu?
Yangtze has always been home to the Hmong-Mien people, not Wu or Han Chinese.
MIYAOZOKU
Sorry, but Fuxi and Nuwa came from the Hmong, along with Pan Gu.
Pan Gu never existed in Han mythology. It was incorporated into Han Mythology after the establishment of CCP.
Nuwa is the most important goddess to the Miao people. Nuwa plays an important role in the mythology of Pan Gu as well.
The Rhinoceros Totem and Pan Gu Myth
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdDBMSz1MKFsB...les/16ii/Wu.pdf
QUOTE
"Archeologists and historians have suggested that the proto-H-M might be linked with the Neolithic culture in the Middle Reach of the Yangtze River in southern China (Fei 1999), including the Daxi Culture (5,300–6,400 YBP) and the Qujialing Culture (4,600–5,000 YBP). Haplogroup B5a, which is very homogeneous and shows a star-like phylogeny, accounts for 11% of H-M mtDNAs and exists in most of the H-M populations. The estimated age of B5a in H-M is 6,000 ± 2, 000 YBP. Another lineage, the motif 16129–16189–16217–16261, is strongly H-M–specific and is present in 8 of the 17 H-M populations. The estimated age of this lineage is 3,560 ± 2, 050 YBP. Furthermore, 23 D4 mtDNAs from 10 H-M populations share the same motif ,19092–16223–16362, which is very rare in other populations. Coalescence time of the D4 mtDNAs with this motif is estimated at 4,000 ± 2, 000 YBP. All these estimations are well in line with the age of the two aforementioned cultures excavated in southern China. The study of ancient DNA from the Daxi Culture and Qujialing Culture would be of great importance to verify the possible affiliations of H-M and these Neolithic cultures" (Bo Wen et al, 2004)
"A high frequency of O3d was only found in Daxi Culture.
O3d is very rare in modern populations; Hmong-Mien
populations have been found to contain a small proportion
of O3d (Feng 2007). Among those Hmong-Mien populations,
She and Bunu were found to have the highest frequency
of O3d (Su et al. 1999). Since O3d occurs at low
frequency in the Hmong-Mien, the ancient people of Daxi
Culture might be the ancestors of the modern populations
of Hmong-Mien. The absence of O3d in the historical samples
from the Daxi site (it might not have been found
because of the small sample size), and the migration of
modern Hmong-Mien populations to the southwest might
indicate that the prehistoric population in the Three Gorges
area has been replaced." (Hui Li et al, 2007)
According to this website: http://history.cultural-china.com/en/51H5007H11108.html, "The Daxi culture was contemporary with the Yangshao culture, and there are certain similarities in pottery forms and decorations, indicating a cultural interaction with each other", this is saying that interaction with the people from the Yangtze and the Yellow River had probably and concievably happened due to similarities between these cultures. This is interesting because the Miao of Hunan clearly show strong genetic connection with NEA people.
"A famous legend concerning the ancient San-Miao tribe, thought to be the ancestor of present-day H-M populations, is of great interest. The San-Miao tribe expanded northward to the Yellow River drainage area; then, led by the Chiyou, they battled against the Yan-Huang tribe (one of the primary Sino-Tibetan ancestors) in Zhulu (in present-day Hubei Province near Beijing). The Chiyou were defeated and pushed back to the south before the Yan-Huang dominated the northern China. Our mtDNA data might provide some clues for tracing this march. As we showed earlier, the southern lineages account for only about 50% of Miao mtDNAs; most of the lineages prevalent in NEA are found in Miao-Hunan (MHN), which has the highest frequency of such haplogroups in the H-M populations. A careful inspection of the distribution of the northern mtDNA lineages revealed more information. A6 is almost absent in other southern populations, but it is present in Miao-Hunan. C5 is the dominating haplogroup C type in the southern populations; however, almost all haplogroup C mtDNAs are non-C5 in the two Miao populations. G3 is a very rare in NEA, and it is completely absent in the south. Surprisingly, two Miao-Hunan mtDNAs carry this haplogroup. These observations suggest that the Miao (Hmong) people may have more contact with the NEA. " (Bo Wen et al, 2004)
"A high frequency of O3d was only found in Daxi Culture.
O3d is very rare in modern populations; Hmong-Mien
populations have been found to contain a small proportion
of O3d (Feng 2007). Among those Hmong-Mien populations,
She and Bunu were found to have the highest frequency
of O3d (Su et al. 1999). Since O3d occurs at low
frequency in the Hmong-Mien, the ancient people of Daxi
Culture might be the ancestors of the modern populations
of Hmong-Mien. The absence of O3d in the historical samples
from the Daxi site (it might not have been found
because of the small sample size), and the migration of
modern Hmong-Mien populations to the southwest might
indicate that the prehistoric population in the Three Gorges
area has been replaced." (Hui Li et al, 2007)
According to this website: http://history.cultural-china.com/en/51H5007H11108.html, "The Daxi culture was contemporary with the Yangshao culture, and there are certain similarities in pottery forms and decorations, indicating a cultural interaction with each other", this is saying that interaction with the people from the Yangtze and the Yellow River had probably and concievably happened due to similarities between these cultures. This is interesting because the Miao of Hunan clearly show strong genetic connection with NEA people.
"A famous legend concerning the ancient San-Miao tribe, thought to be the ancestor of present-day H-M populations, is of great interest. The San-Miao tribe expanded northward to the Yellow River drainage area; then, led by the Chiyou, they battled against the Yan-Huang tribe (one of the primary Sino-Tibetan ancestors) in Zhulu (in present-day Hubei Province near Beijing). The Chiyou were defeated and pushed back to the south before the Yan-Huang dominated the northern China. Our mtDNA data might provide some clues for tracing this march. As we showed earlier, the southern lineages account for only about 50% of Miao mtDNAs; most of the lineages prevalent in NEA are found in Miao-Hunan (MHN), which has the highest frequency of such haplogroups in the H-M populations. A careful inspection of the distribution of the northern mtDNA lineages revealed more information. A6 is almost absent in other southern populations, but it is present in Miao-Hunan. C5 is the dominating haplogroup C type in the southern populations; however, almost all haplogroup C mtDNAs are non-C5 in the two Miao populations. G3 is a very rare in NEA, and it is completely absent in the south. Surprisingly, two Miao-Hunan mtDNAs carry this haplogroup. These observations suggest that the Miao (Hmong) people may have more contact with the NEA. " (Bo Wen et al, 2004)
Yangtze has always been home to the Hmong-Mien people, not Wu or Han Chinese.
QUOTE
O3a3b
A research study (http://comonca.org.cn/lh/Documents/A37.pdf) conducted in 2007 seemed to suggest that the ancient Daxi people may be the ancestors of Hmong-Mien (Miao-Yao) people. According to the research, O3a3b (formerly known as O3d) is a very rare haplogroup in modern-day populations that is found in Hmong-Mien populations and at high frequencies among the She and Bunu people, whose languages are classified as Hmong-Mien languages.
Genetic materials collected from five ancient sites were tested and found to belong to four different ancient cultures, of which the Daxi culture being the oldest. According to the graph below, the majority of the samples collected from the Daxi site were undetermined, however, of those that were able to be classified, the majority were of the O3a3b haplogroup. The authors of this research postulates that since O3a3b is found in modern Hmong-Mien populations that the Daxi people may very well be the ancestors of Hmong-Mien people.
(http://i32.tinypic.com/9ripfn.jpg)
Daxi Culture
The Daxi Culture was a Neolithic culture centered in the middle Yangtze River area. This culture flourished between 5000BC to 3000BC (this date varies according to which source is used). According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daxi_culture), "Daxi sites are typified by the presence of dou (cylindrical bottles), white pan (plates), and red pottery. The Daxi people cultivated rice extensively. Daxi sites were some of the earliest in China to show evidence of moats and walled settlements."
According to National Geographic, "The Daxi culture was a Chinese Neolithic culture that emerged in the Yangzi River Valley between 4500 - 3300 BCE. It is one of the most important Neolithic cultures in the area as it was separate and distinctive from other cultures at the same time and place.
The most well-known Daxi site is Chengtoushan, which is located on the edge of Dongting Lake in Hunan province.
It has been suggested by scholars the Daxi culture was the descendant of the Zaoshi Culture, which flourished between 6000 - 5200 BCE (Zhimin, p.756). During excavations in the 1900's, a walled town was unearthed, stretching over 20 acres. Over three separate periods modifications were made to the wall. Whether this was due to fighting, one cannot say at this time.
Over 700 burials were unearthed within the walled area. The majority of these burials were poor, but there were several that were richly endowed with grave goods. One elite person was buried with 50 pottery vessels and wore two beautiful jade pendants. What was even more interesting was the fact that 4 individuals were interred in crouched positions in the corners of the tomb (Higham, p.246).
The Daxi culture was contemporary with the Yangshao culture, and there are certain similarities in pottery forms and decorations, indicating a cultural interaction with each other.
The settlements chosen were typically wetlands. Multi-roomed, rectangular houses were constructed of clay. These were then strengthened with reeds, bamboo and rice husk bonding. The swampy terrain would have been chosen for the establishment of rice fields. Archaeological evidence has shown that agricultural intensificatio n through ploughing was performed, as well as the maintaining of domestic cattle and pigs. However, fishing and hunting still occurred despite this.
The Daxi culture has fascinated scholars for years, due to its distinct culture and its importance to Neolithic Chinese history. Whilst not much is known at this time, continual archaeological research will continue to shed light on this fascinating culture."
----------
In 2007, the ancient Daxi sites were destroyed when the Three Gorges Dam was completed.
Personal note: If this research holds true then it's quite sad to know that much of our people's history is now under water. :'(
Rice Farming
Members of the O3 haplogroup (of which the subclade O3a3b belongs to) may very well be the descendants of the first rice farmers in China. It is believed that rice farming in China first began about 5000 years ago around the Yangtze River valley and that the spread of rice farming is due to migration of these first rice farmers. Haplogroup O3 is believed to be about 10,000 years old with origins in southern China. According to National Geographic, carriers of the O3 haplogroup migrated from southern China into northern China, quite possibly bringing with them, rice. Another interesting fact is that rice was and still is predominantly eaten in southern China. In ancient times, populations in northern China ate millet as their staple food.
A research study (http://comonca.org.cn/lh/Documents/A37.pdf) conducted in 2007 seemed to suggest that the ancient Daxi people may be the ancestors of Hmong-Mien (Miao-Yao) people. According to the research, O3a3b (formerly known as O3d) is a very rare haplogroup in modern-day populations that is found in Hmong-Mien populations and at high frequencies among the She and Bunu people, whose languages are classified as Hmong-Mien languages.
Genetic materials collected from five ancient sites were tested and found to belong to four different ancient cultures, of which the Daxi culture being the oldest. According to the graph below, the majority of the samples collected from the Daxi site were undetermined, however, of those that were able to be classified, the majority were of the O3a3b haplogroup. The authors of this research postulates that since O3a3b is found in modern Hmong-Mien populations that the Daxi people may very well be the ancestors of Hmong-Mien people.
(http://i32.tinypic.com/9ripfn.jpg)
Daxi Culture
The Daxi Culture was a Neolithic culture centered in the middle Yangtze River area. This culture flourished between 5000BC to 3000BC (this date varies according to which source is used). According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daxi_culture), "Daxi sites are typified by the presence of dou (cylindrical bottles), white pan (plates), and red pottery. The Daxi people cultivated rice extensively. Daxi sites were some of the earliest in China to show evidence of moats and walled settlements."
According to National Geographic, "The Daxi culture was a Chinese Neolithic culture that emerged in the Yangzi River Valley between 4500 - 3300 BCE. It is one of the most important Neolithic cultures in the area as it was separate and distinctive from other cultures at the same time and place.
The most well-known Daxi site is Chengtoushan, which is located on the edge of Dongting Lake in Hunan province.
It has been suggested by scholars the Daxi culture was the descendant of the Zaoshi Culture, which flourished between 6000 - 5200 BCE (Zhimin, p.756). During excavations in the 1900's, a walled town was unearthed, stretching over 20 acres. Over three separate periods modifications were made to the wall. Whether this was due to fighting, one cannot say at this time.
Over 700 burials were unearthed within the walled area. The majority of these burials were poor, but there were several that were richly endowed with grave goods. One elite person was buried with 50 pottery vessels and wore two beautiful jade pendants. What was even more interesting was the fact that 4 individuals were interred in crouched positions in the corners of the tomb (Higham, p.246).
The Daxi culture was contemporary with the Yangshao culture, and there are certain similarities in pottery forms and decorations, indicating a cultural interaction with each other.
The settlements chosen were typically wetlands. Multi-roomed, rectangular houses were constructed of clay. These were then strengthened with reeds, bamboo and rice husk bonding. The swampy terrain would have been chosen for the establishment of rice fields. Archaeological evidence has shown that agricultural intensificatio n through ploughing was performed, as well as the maintaining of domestic cattle and pigs. However, fishing and hunting still occurred despite this.
The Daxi culture has fascinated scholars for years, due to its distinct culture and its importance to Neolithic Chinese history. Whilst not much is known at this time, continual archaeological research will continue to shed light on this fascinating culture."
----------
In 2007, the ancient Daxi sites were destroyed when the Three Gorges Dam was completed.
Personal note: If this research holds true then it's quite sad to know that much of our people's history is now under water. :'(
Rice Farming
Members of the O3 haplogroup (of which the subclade O3a3b belongs to) may very well be the descendants of the first rice farmers in China. It is believed that rice farming in China first began about 5000 years ago around the Yangtze River valley and that the spread of rice farming is due to migration of these first rice farmers. Haplogroup O3 is believed to be about 10,000 years old with origins in southern China. According to National Geographic, carriers of the O3 haplogroup migrated from southern China into northern China, quite possibly bringing with them, rice. Another interesting fact is that rice was and still is predominantly eaten in southern China. In ancient times, populations in northern China ate millet as their staple food.
MIYAOZOKU
Sorry, but Fuxi and Nuwa came from the Hmong, along with Pan Gu.
Pan Gu never existed in Han mythology. It was incorporated into Han Mythology after the establishment of CCP.
Nuwa is the most important goddess to the Miao people. Nuwa plays an important role in the mythology of Pan Gu as well.
The Rhinoceros Totem and Pan Gu Myth
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdDBMSz1MKFsB...les/16ii/Wu.pdf
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Jul 13 2010, 09:22 PM)
For layman, myself being under-layman:
Japanese people are all immigrants, which is true for all regions except Africa. They are:
Mongoloid
Paleolithic-Pottery Age Aboriginese
C1 Ainu-like
D2 Gatheresr-Conservers
Mongolia-Korea Bronze-Iron Age Immigrants
C3 Altai
C3c East Mongolia/Manchuria
O2a Upper Yangze Bafang
O2b Middle Huanghe (Shang) Alligator Clan
O3 Liaohe Xinglongwa Progeny Tufang
O3a3 Middle Yangze Wu Emigre
O3a3c Middle Huanghe Qin Emigre
N1c1 Yenisei Bronze Casters
N1 Central Asia Iron Smiths
NO Hyksos West Qiang Qijia Horse Breeders Sheepherders
Non-Mongoloid
R Iranian-like Scythian Caucasoid
I Anglosaxon-like Scythian Caucasoid
Q Furrian, Tatar Native American-like people
Japanese people are all immigrants, which is true for all regions except Africa. They are:
Mongoloid
Paleolithic-Pottery Age Aboriginese
C1 Ainu-like
D2 Gatheresr-Conservers
Mongolia-Korea Bronze-Iron Age Immigrants
C3 Altai
C3c East Mongolia/Manchuria
O2a Upper Yangze Bafang
O2b Middle Huanghe (Shang) Alligator Clan
O3 Liaohe Xinglongwa Progeny Tufang
O3a3 Middle Yangze Wu Emigre
O3a3c Middle Huanghe Qin Emigre
N1c1 Yenisei Bronze Casters
N1 Central Asia Iron Smiths
NO Hyksos West Qiang Qijia Horse Breeders Sheepherders
Non-Mongoloid
R Iranian-like Scythian Caucasoid
I Anglosaxon-like Scythian Caucasoid
Q Furrian, Tatar Native American-like people
Correct,
1 C3* , the earlier settler in East asia before O halpogroup appeared in East asia. It exists in all ethnic of east asia
2 O2b does not exist in Huanghe River.
3 O3? Which kind of O3 u means?
4 O3a3? What kind of O3a3 u means?
5 O3a3c:later chinese immigration
6 N1/R/I/Q(Q1?), went to Japan accompany with O3a3c
QUOTE (pajun @ Jul 14 2010, 01:11 PM)
Yangtze - what is Wu?
Yangtze has always been home to the Hmong-Mien people, not Wu or Han Chinese.
MIYAOZOKU
Sorry, but Fuxi and Nuwa came from the Hmong, along with Pan Gu.
Pan Gu never existed in Han mythology. It was incorporated into Han Mythology after the establishment of CCP.
Nuwa is the most important goddess to the Miao people. Nuwa plays an important role in the mythology of Pan Gu as well.
The Rhinoceros Totem and Pan Gu Myth
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdDBMSz1MKFsB...les/16ii/Wu.pdf
Yangtze has always been home to the Hmong-Mien people, not Wu or Han Chinese.
MIYAOZOKU
Sorry, but Fuxi and Nuwa came from the Hmong, along with Pan Gu.
Pan Gu never existed in Han mythology. It was incorporated into Han Mythology after the establishment of CCP.
Nuwa is the most important goddess to the Miao people. Nuwa plays an important role in the mythology of Pan Gu as well.
The Rhinoceros Totem and Pan Gu Myth
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGdDBMSz1MKFsB...les/16ii/Wu.pdf
Thank you for invaluable informations. In my turn, I'm also brushing up data:
Figures are in percentage.
Mongoloid
Paleolithic - Cordmark Pottery Age (until 1000 BCE) Aboriginese
C1 Ainu-like 5.4
D2 Gatheresr-Conservers 34.8
Cordmark Pottery 40.2
Mongolia-Korea Bronze-Iron Age (1000 BCE to 700 AD) Immigrants
Pasturalists-Herders (Mongolians)
C3 Altai 1.9
C3c East Mongolia/Manchuria 1.2
Mongolians Total 3.1
Water-Intensive Farmers (Koreans)
O2a Upper Yangze Bafang 1.9
O2b Middle Huanghe (Shang) Alligator Clan 29.7
Koreans Total 31.6
Yangze-Huanghe-Liao Farmers (Chinese)
O3 Liaohe Xinglongwa Tufang 6.6
O3a3 Longshan Emigre * 3.1
O3a3c Middle Huanghe Qin (Yangshao) Emigre 10.4
*The guardian for the first Japanese queen Himiko's grave is Chiyou.
Chinese Total 20.1
Metallurgic Culture (Central Asians)
N1c1 Yenisei Bronze Casters 0.4
N1 Central Asia Iron Smiths 1.2
NO Hyksos West Qiang Qijia Horse Breeders Sheepherders 2.3
Central Asians Total 3.9
Non-Mongoloid
R Iranian-like Scythian Caucasoid 0.4
I Anglosaxon-like Scythian Caucasoid 0.4
Q Furrian, Tatar Native American-like people 0.4
Non-Mongoloid Total 1.2
The term "Chinese" is vague.
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 14 2010, 01:55 PM)
Correct,
1 C3* , the earlier settler in East asia before O halpogroup appeared in East asia. It exists in all ethnic of east asia
2 O2b does not exist in Huanghe River.
3 O3? Which kind of O3 u means?
4 O3a3? What kind of O3a3 u means?
5 O3a3c:later chinese immigration
6 N1/R/I/Q(Q1?), went to Japan accompany with O3a3c
1 C3* , the earlier settler in East asia before O halpogroup appeared in East asia. It exists in all ethnic of east asia
2 O2b does not exist in Huanghe River.
3 O3? Which kind of O3 u means?
4 O3a3? What kind of O3a3 u means?
5 O3a3c:later chinese immigration
6 N1/R/I/Q(Q1?), went to Japan accompany with O3a3c
3 O3? Which kind of O3 u means? O3-M122* I guess as Tufang. Or Tu-zu.
4 O3a3? What kind of O3a3 u means? LINE1 I guess Han, Tujia, Miao.
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Jul 14 2010, 12:04 AM)
Mongoloid
Paleolithic - Cordmark Pottery Age (until 1000 BCE) Aboriginese
D2 Gatheresr-Conservers 34.8
Water-Intensive Farmers (Koreans)
O2b Middle Huanghe (Shang) Alligator Clan 29.7
Paleolithic - Cordmark Pottery Age (until 1000 BCE) Aboriginese
D2 Gatheresr-Conservers 34.8
Water-Intensive Farmers (Koreans)
O2b Middle Huanghe (Shang) Alligator Clan 29.7
Who are these D2 and O2b people? They make up the majority of Japanese people.
QUOTE (pajun @ Jul 14 2010, 02:07 PM)
The term "Chinese" is vague.
Populations on present day PRC territory. Or Sinitic. Help me.
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Jul 14 2010, 01:15 AM)
3 O3? Which kind of O3 u means? O3-M122* I guess as Tufang. Or Tu-zu.
4 O3a3? What kind of O3a3 u means? LINE1 I guess Han, Tujia, Miao.
4 O3a3? What kind of O3a3 u means? LINE1 I guess Han, Tujia, Miao.
O3*-M122 means unclassified O3, or O3 can not find a match type in Y-SNP data base.
O3-line1 renamed as O3a4-002611 and O3a3b-M7, which exists in a lot of ethnics at a low rate.
QUOTE (chiuchimu @ Jul 14 2010, 02:20 PM)
Who are these D2 and O2b people? They make up the majority of Japanese people.
D2 is new mutation born in Japan. O2b are Altai-Mongol-Manchurians. O2b1 are Korean-Japanese Okcho-Wa.
O2b does not exist in core tribes of mongol.
C3 exists in all ethnic of asia.
C3 exists in all ethnic of asia.
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 14 2010, 02:23 PM)
O3*-M122 means unclassified O3, or O3 can not find a match type in Y-SNP data base.
O3-line1 renamed as O3a4-002611 and O3a3b-M7, which exists in a lot of ethnics at a low rate.
O3-line1 renamed as O3a4-002611 and O3a3b-M7, which exists in a lot of ethnics at a low rate.
May be Sanmiao that Caocao feared.
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Jul 14 2010, 01:30 AM)
May be Sanmiao that Caocao feared.
I think u are lack of basic historical knowledge.
I have said both O3a4 and O3a3b exists in all asian ethnic, from pacific island to mainland and it exists at a low rate (less than 30%) at all those ethnic.
But Japanese O3a4 or O3a3b are obviously not from Yangtze Delta because japanese only have around 1% O1 while Yangtze Delta became O1 dominated region since 6000 years ago.
Now do u understand that?
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 14 2010, 02:44 PM)
I think u are lack of basic historical knowledge.
I have said both O3a4 and O3a3b exists in all asian ethnic, from pacific island to mainland and it exists at a low rate (less than 30%) at all those ethnic.
But Japanese O3a4 or O3a3b are obviously not from Yangtze Delta because japanese only have around 1% O1 while Yangtze Delta became O1 dominated region since 6000 years ago.
Now do u understand that?
I have said both O3a4 and O3a3b exists in all asian ethnic, from pacific island to mainland and it exists at a low rate (less than 30%) at all those ethnic.
But Japanese O3a4 or O3a3b are obviously not from Yangtze Delta because japanese only have around 1% O1 while Yangtze Delta became O1 dominated region since 6000 years ago.
Now do u understand that?
Japanese archaeological researchers confirm that no evidence of rice cultivation move from Yangze Delta nor Taiwan was found in Okinawa and
neibouring islands. This fully agrees with your comment.
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Jul 14 2010, 02:17 AM)
Japanese archaeological researchers confirm that no evidence of rice cultivation move from Yangze Delta nor Taiwan was found in Okinawa and
neibouring islands. This fully agrees with your comment.
neibouring islands. This fully agrees with your comment.
So how can those Wu immigration bring O3a4(if I did not mistake, most Japanese O3-line1 belong to O3a4), to Japan?
Japan's rice cultivation has its own origin.
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 14 2010, 02:28 PM)
O2b does not exist in core tribes of mongol.
C3 exists in all ethnic of asia.
C3 exists in all ethnic of asia.
Cis-Baikal Glazkov Culture has white nephrite rings, birch skin woodworking, fishery, Kimono clothings, cordoned ware similar to Japanese
early Yayoi Culture. Glazkov Culture was developed into Slab Grave Culture. In Cis-Baikal, Glazkov Culture left Invexed Square Burial Mounds.
This type of burial commenced in Izumo, Japan, in Late Yayoi Period. Hence I guess the Glazkov population might have been O2b.
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Jul 14 2010, 03:38 PM)
Cis-Baikal Glazkov Culture has white nephrite rings, birch skin woodworking, fishery, Kimono clothings, cordoned ware similar to Japanese
early Yayoi Culture. Glazkov Culture was developed into Slab Grave Culture. In Cis-Baikal, Glazkov Culture left Invexed Square Burial Mounds.
This type of burial commenced in Izumo, Japan, in Late Yayoi Period. Hence I guess the Glazkov population might have been O2b.
early Yayoi Culture. Glazkov Culture was developed into Slab Grave Culture. In Cis-Baikal, Glazkov Culture left Invexed Square Burial Mounds.
This type of burial commenced in Izumo, Japan, in Late Yayoi Period. Hence I guess the Glazkov population might have been O2b.
May be INBENT SQUARE PLATFORM MOUND or FOUR RAMPED SQUARE PLATFORM MOUND.
"So how can those Wu immigration bring O3a4(if I did not mistake, most Japanese O3-line1 belong to O3a4), to Japan?
Japan's rice cultivation has its own origin."
O3a3-LINE1 (O3a4)3.10% Qujialing Farmers din't leave Jar Dolmen in Northern Korea more north than Sonngunni
(Proto-Baekje) Settlement and more east than Yoshinogari (Mt Seburi foothills) in Kyusyu.
http://www.geocities.jp/ikoh12/honnronn3/0...npann_keiro.jpg
Qujialing 3500-2600BCE (Jar Burial 3500-1500BCE)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Neolithic_china.svg
It lasted throuout Yayoi (BC9C to AD zero)
Jar Burial in North Kyushu
http://www.geocities.jp/ikoh12/honnronn3/0...n_to_hennka.jpg
Time Scale: BC9C> Initial Yayoi BC8C > Early Yayoi BC4C > Middle Yayoi AD0C> Late Yayoi AD2C>Tumuli Burial
Japan's rice cultivation has its own origin."
O3a3-LINE1 (O3a4)3.10% Qujialing Farmers din't leave Jar Dolmen in Northern Korea more north than Sonngunni
(Proto-Baekje) Settlement and more east than Yoshinogari (Mt Seburi foothills) in Kyusyu.
http://www.geocities.jp/ikoh12/honnronn3/0...npann_keiro.jpg
Qujialing 3500-2600BCE (Jar Burial 3500-1500BCE)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Neolithic_china.svg
It lasted throuout Yayoi (BC9C to AD zero)
Jar Burial in North Kyushu
http://www.geocities.jp/ikoh12/honnronn3/0...n_to_hennka.jpg
Time Scale: BC9C> Initial Yayoi BC8C > Early Yayoi BC4C > Middle Yayoi AD0C> Late Yayoi AD2C>Tumuli Burial
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 13 2010, 12:32 PM)
^
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
It's most likely that Yueshi Farmers from Shandong O3a3c-M134 who settled in Liaodong around 2000 BCE and Liaoxi Bronze Dagger Burial Culture Farmers O3-M122* accompanied by convoys of Liaoning Proto-Yemaek (possibly Machenzi Culture) (O2b1) moved to South Korea Kumgang basin and North Kyusyu Ongagawa basin and started state-of-art Moderate Zonal Japonica Irrigation Cultivation System in early 2nd millenium BCE. Rapid expansion was ensured by enhanced river-marine mobility of Viking-like Proto-Yemaek O2b clan who in later times appears as a closest Alligator clan to Yamato royal family, clan Wani.
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 14 2010, 02:27 AM)
So how can those Wu immigration bring O3a4(if I did not mistake, most Japanese O3-line1 belong to O3a4), to Japan?
Japan's rice cultivation has its own origin.
Japan's rice cultivation has its own origin.
You seem to have a lot of knowledge about genetics and prehistoric migrations, But the statement in bold needs support. Have you personally seen rice farming in Japan or at least a documentary on it? It's basically the same as rice cultivation through out Asia-yet, rice cultivation in other parts of the world is different. Logic tells me that rice cultivation in Asia spread with people or as information from on group to another.
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 13 2010, 12:32 PM)
^
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
You are not in conformity with reality.
These are those who entered into Japan in 1st millenium BCE from Mainland China direction:
O2a-M95* 1.90% Yue (Jiangnan)
O2b-SRY 7.70% Mo（Harbin）
O2b1-47z 22.00% Ye（Yalijiang）
O3-M122* 6.60% Yan（Liao）
O3a4-LINE1 3.10% Miao（Yangze）
O3a3c-M134 10.40% Ji 箕（Shanxi)
it seems that O2b/O2b1 marker is uniquely shared by Japanese and koreans, and less frequency in other nations(not a single found in Han Chinese, Mongolian and Taiwan aborigines so far ). And also to notice that Japanese have few Yue(越)-specific O1 marker, which means that the yaoi migrated from Korean peninsula not from yangzi rive in south china where the O1 marker is still dominant there.
Are there any academic papers on the mysterious O2b to be recommended ? Thanks
Are there any academic papers on the mysterious O2b to be recommended ? Thanks
QUOTE (tianya @ Jul 13 2010, 12:32 PM)
^
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
I think the Wu-Wo relationship is just some legend.
Those neolithic, as well as modern time population shows, Yangtze delta has large percentage O1.(For example,Liangzhu culture 4000 years ago has around 75% O1+25% undetected.Modern time Shanghai has a 30% O1).
But Japanese has only around 1% O1 rate,which means few immigration to Japan were from Yangtze Delta.
Posted Yesterday, 09:58 PM
it seems that O2b/O2b1 marker is uniquely shared by Japanese and koreans, and less frequency in other nations(not a single found in Han Chinese, Mongolian and Taiwan aborigines so far ). And also to notice that Japanese have few Yue(越)-specific O1 marker, which means that the yaoi migrated from Korean peninsula not from yangzi rive in south china where the O1 marker is still dominant there.
Are there any academic papers on the mysterious O2b to be recommended ? Thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell! tianfan!
May be you already know this, but glad if this wud be helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O2b_(Y-DNA)
it seems that O2b/O2b1 marker is uniquely shared by Japanese and koreans, and less frequency in other nations(not a single found in Han Chinese, Mongolian and Taiwan aborigines so far ). And also to notice that Japanese have few Yue(越)-specific O1 marker, which means that the yaoi migrated from Korean peninsula not from yangzi rive in south china where the O1 marker is still dominant there.
Are there any academic papers on the mysterious O2b to be recommended ? Thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell! tianfan!
May be you already know this, but glad if this wud be helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O2b_(Y-DNA)
Hello Tianfan!
Sorry I put it as "hell Tianfan". I meant "Hello Tianfan".
Sorry I put it as "hell Tianfan". I meant "Hello Tianfan".
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Aug 2 2010, 09:51 PM)
Posted Yesterday, 09:58 PM
it seems that O2b/O2b1 marker is uniquely shared by Japanese and koreans, and less frequency in other nations(not a single found in Han Chinese, Mongolian and Taiwan aborigines so far ). And also to notice that Japanese have few Yue(越)-specific O1 marker, which means that the yaoi migrated from Korean peninsula not from yangzi rive in south china where the O1 marker is still dominant there.
Are there any academic papers on the mysterious O2b to be recommended ? Thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell! tianfan!
May be you already know this, but glad if this wud be helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O2b_(Y-DNA)
it seems that O2b/O2b1 marker is uniquely shared by Japanese and koreans, and less frequency in other nations(not a single found in Han Chinese, Mongolian and Taiwan aborigines so far ). And also to notice that Japanese have few Yue(越)-specific O1 marker, which means that the yaoi migrated from Korean peninsula not from yangzi rive in south china where the O1 marker is still dominant there.
Are there any academic papers on the mysterious O2b to be recommended ? Thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell! tianfan!
May be you already know this, but glad if this wud be helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O2b_(Y-DNA)
HI,charlypanda, thanks!
Yes i've already read the O2b page on wiki. but it tells nothing about its original place and migrating route.
We need a paper on it, hopefully there will be one in future.
Because of back mutations, the SNP marker LINE1 is no longer used in the current version of the tree, instead, there are several new SNP markers used now, such as O3a3-P201*, O3a3a-M159, O3a3b-M7, O3a3c-M134*, O3a3c1-M117, O3a3c2-P101, O3a4-002611 and so on.
Let's see ISOGG's latest update of Y-DNA tree:
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpO.html
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html
"The L1 insertion (also known as LINE1) which appeared in previous versions of the tree is associated with haplogroups O3a3 and O3a4 suggesting a shared ancestry for these two branches. However, L1 has been observed to be absent in these groups due to multiple deletions and so is not included in the current version of the tree."
Let's see ISOGG's latest update of Y-DNA tree:
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpO.html
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html
"The L1 insertion (also known as LINE1) which appeared in previous versions of the tree is associated with haplogroups O3a3 and O3a4 suggesting a shared ancestry for these two branches. However, L1 has been observed to be absent in these groups due to multiple deletions and so is not included in the current version of the tree."
Asia-Pacific Y-DNA & mtDNA data up to Karafet (2010).xls
Download Link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/hhdn5k
Download Link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/hhdn5k
QUOTE (natsuman @ Aug 6 2010, 01:50 PM)
Because of back mutations, the SNP marker LINE1 is no longer used in the current version of the tree, instead, there are several new SNP markers used now, such as O3a3-P201*, O3a3a-M159, O3a3b-M7, O3a3c-M134*, O3a3c1-M117, O3a3c2-P101, O3a4-002611 and so on.
Let's see ISOGG's latest update of Y-DNA tree:
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpO.html
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html
"The L1 insertion (also known as LINE1) which appeared in previous versions of the tree is associated with haplogroups O3a3 and O3a4 suggesting a shared ancestry for these two branches. However, L1 has been observed to be absent in these groups due to multiple deletions and so is not included in the current version of the tree."
Let's see ISOGG's latest update of Y-DNA tree:
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpO.html
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html
"The L1 insertion (also known as LINE1) which appeared in previous versions of the tree is associated with haplogroups O3a3 and O3a4 suggesting a shared ancestry for these two branches. However, L1 has been observed to be absent in these groups due to multiple deletions and so is not included in the current version of the tree."
Hi natsuya,thank you for the resources
it is great helpful
QUOTE
The L1 insertion (also known as LINE1) which appeared in previous versions of the tree is associated with haplogroups O3a3 and O3a4 suggesting a shared ancestry for these two branches.
Hi Natsuman! Does that shared ancestry look something like O3a3* (or O3a4*) whereunder O3a4* (or O3a3*) is subordinated?
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Aug 7 2010, 02:29 PM)
Hi Natsuman! Does that shared ancestry look something like O3a3* (or O3a4*) whereunder O3a4* (or O3a3*) is subordinated?
Well, we can ignore the data of O3-LINE1 seen before, because this marker is not reliable. LINE1 is both found positive and negative under O3a3-P201 and O3a4-002611, ex: O3a3b-M7 is found LINE1+ and O3a3c-M134 is found LINE-, furthermore, O3a4-002611 is found both LINE1+ and LINE-, so instead of LINE1, the geneticists now use markers like P201, M159, M7, M134, 002611 under O3a3 and O3a4.
You can see the Asia-Pacific Y-DNA data of Karafet et al. 2010 which used the latest Y-SNP typing.
Asia-Pacific Y-DNA & mtDNA data up to Karafet (2010).xls
Download Link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/hhdn5k
QUOTE (tianfan @ Aug 7 2010, 11:38 AM)
Hi natsuya,thank you for the resources
it is great helpful
it is great helpful
You're very welcome, tianfan.
CODE
Well, we can ignore the data of O3-LINE1 seen before, because this marker is not reliable.
Thanks Natsuman. I got an idea of putting O3-LINE1 into a black box. I think I shall not be totally wrong in calling, say, one of Sanmiao.
QUOTE (charlypanda @ Aug 8 2010, 06:51 AM)
CODE
Well, we can ignore the data of O3-LINE1 seen before, because this marker is not reliable.
Thanks Natsuman. I got an idea of putting O3-LINE1 into a black box. I think I shall not be totally wrong in calling, say, one of Sanmiao.
If you compare old data and "Asia-Pacific Y-DNA & mtDNA data up to Karafet (2010).xls" I provide above, you'll find that previous O3-LINE1 among Miao and Yao people are proven mostly O3a3b-M7, but in other populations, ex: previous O3-LINE1 among Taiwan Han people are now mostly O3a3-P201 and O3a4-002611. Karafet haven't used latest Y-SNP typing for Koreans and Japanese, but I don't think previous O3-LINE1 among Koreans and Japanese are O3a3b-M7 which is more common found in Miao and Yao, I tend to suppose O3-LINE1 in Koreans and Japanese are O3a3-P201 and O3a4-002611. We have to pay attention on the new and important haplogroup O3a4-002611 (O3a4-002611 is different from O3a3b-M7 which was once called O3d or O3a4). Many Chinese recently tested by Fudan university turned out to be O3a4-002611 which may be the majority of previous O3-M122*(xO3a3b-M7, O3a3c-M134).
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/%E4%B8%AD%E5...%BB%9F%E8%AE%A1
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