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Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Asian Culture > Chinese Chat > Chinese Serious Talk
KraterosHellas


the CCP have met in Beijing to draw up economic plans for the next five years. amidst the Nobel Peace Prize row, china's agenda are increasingly becoming democracized. check this out:

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/artic...26890_3216.html

a summary of the essential points:

in the next 5-year plan, china wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.

china looks for ways to develop an economy that is not esport-dependent.

premier Wen jiabao has said "the calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistable" (in effect the china is admitting democracy will come and it won't be able to stop it)

some members in the CCP and the chinese media have said "if the chinese communist party does not reform itself, if it does not transform itself, it will die a natural death"
phop
QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Oct 15 2010, 02:03 PM) *
the CCP have met in Beijing to draw up economic plans for the next five years. amidst the Nobel Peace Prize row, china's agenda are increasingly becoming democracized. check this out:

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/artic...26890_3216.html

a summary of the essential points:

in the next 5-year plan, china wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.

china looks for ways to develop an economy that is not esport-dependent.

premier Wen jiabao has said "the calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistable" (in effect the china is admitting democracy will come and it won't be able to stop it)

some members in the CCP and the chinese media have said "if the chinese communist party does not reform itself, if it does not transform itself, it will die a natural death"


But it sure aint going to be western democracy, western democracy is bull$hit and too chaotic
KraterosHellas
it sure is. democracy often lacks direction and purpose. but i think the chinese brand of democracy will be more focused.
phop
One thing you need to know is that in a country where governments rule the government control society, in a country where governments do not rule and they are weak then the CORPORATIONS and businesses rule society. In reality nothing changes, business still bribes and huge corporations will use all means to get what it wants, western big car companies are involve with the drug trade working with the CIA, Of course the west want China to go Democracy the way it wants its big and powerful CORPORATIONS want to infiltrate china and control it, which country in the world have ever PROSPER when following what the IMF and all those WESTERN dogs said what is best for them??? I can bet you 100% none of them
sunshine90210
Addition: The corporations rule the government as well
sudowoodoo
They are just talking about increasing some freedoms. Nothing close to electing their government. They basically follow singapore's model of government.
starsiege
QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Nov 19 2010, 02:15 PM) *
omg wtf.........



Its not hard to come up with equally damning stuff about China if one chooses to..or even post about stuff/pictures of/about dog meat..rat meat...and the meat of whatever that moves people eat there.. However, common decency and decorum requires people to behave in a civilzied manner.Collecting such pictures, and posting them on a site (as in the given link above) is no better than the actions of a person who goes on a f-bomb rant in the middle of a market. Any sane person would give such a culture-less person a wide berth. This is the reason why one does not see any anti-(insert name here) posts about other countries in the Indian chat. Actions speak more so than words. We do not lower ourselves to the same level as the low class folks who throw about insults and abuses.


However, on the contrary; one sees a veritable plethora of new-ids who pop up in that sub forum,bashing India and praising China; usually in the form of such lowly links/comments as the ones found above in this very thread. I see two of the recent culprits in this thread itself.(they got dressed down for trolling by the mods; in the Indian chat) The very fact that they create new ids and go about posting this crap speaks volumes about their deep rooted insecurity complex. After all, it is the empty vessel that makes the most noise.


Those who do this are but frogs in the wells who have no idea about how the rest of the world is. One could even hazard a guess that they have the mental age <= 10 years old...and/or that they come from a background/family that is clueless about civilized behavior/proper upbringing.


I'm sure there are educated and civilized Chinese in these forums, and the actions of the few do not reflect upon the entire people; however; when all one sees is such low class rants; one has to wonder if most of the sane Chinese have actually left this forum due to the actions of the aforementioned.
Taln
China periodically advances tenets of a democratic rule, often to have it crushed by the corrupted bureaucracy that seems to us on the outside to pervade the middle and lower levels government to an extent that makes western federal agencies look streamlined (which they sure as hell are not).

If the weiquan lawyers can influence the Chinese government to enact fair laws, and then actually enforce them, a western democracy may not be the result, nor be needed. The problem is that with no system of checks and balances, and only party officials and the military to enforce the laws, it is bound to remain as it is. If the masses have no voice within the courts, or in the press, to hold those with power accountable then nothing is likely to change, except the names of those perpetrating the abuses.
African
Chinese democracy will never be like western style.
KraterosHellas
^western style is too free and chaotic.
Suijen
I don't think he means full multiparty democracy. In fact, that's probably not necessary. What is necessary however is some way for the grassroots to control local leaders. Otherwise the incompetence/predation of the local leaders will piss people off to no end. Freedom of the press, more insulated judiciaries, and better rule of law is not democracy per se (certainly elements required in a mature democracy), but they would help China develop.

Closing the wealth gap isn't exactly "democracy". Increased freedom and rule of law is just a natural requirement for China; people have more money, they want more freedoms, and the government either responds to it or folds under a house of collapsing cards. The government has to adapt to the needs of society/economy. The leadership today is more educated and more professional (believe it or not) than the Chinese government 30 years ago because it needs to be. It still has a long way to go, but then again, China itself has a long way to go too.

If China rushed into democracy, you'd get disaster as China would be an illiberal democracy like Pakistan and Palestine. The majority of Chinese, with the exception of the real educated elite, are not ready for democracy. We're like one big land of free riders who couldn't give two damns about the law. Chinese society, and its mentality, has to evolve a bit more to develop a communal, or "democratic" mindset before China becomes a democracy.
MilknCereal
I think it'll become more democratic in a sense, but never fully go all the way. The population is way to large for it to work. Sure there will be more freedoms but not like what the US has, otherwise like other said above chaos would ensue.
MiddleKingdom1
China will test trial democracy in Hong Kong in 2017 for Chief Executive (President of HK) and 2020 for LegCo (Legislature, usually filled with pro-Beijing business elite friendly politicians).

If it works in Hong Kong, it will be test trialed in Shenzhen ahead of 2047 close of "one country, two system", or 50 years after the 1997 return to Hong Kong.

Hong Kong-Shenzhen will be merged in 2047 (assuming democracy works in Shenzhen to match HK's democracy), and if it succeeds in Shenzhen, it will be scaled to China's urban centers and provincial level, and eventually to the national level.

China-Taiwan will be merged under the same accord

It will be a Chinese style of democracy, not Western style, meaning it will not be multi-party electoral system.

It will be SAME as democratic election of township and village officials right now in China, basically, China already has democracy, but not at the local, provinicial, or national leadership official levels, just at the township/village levels (800 million constitutents)
Suijen
HK is ready for democracy. Hopefully it'd be a better democracy than the WTF that is Taiwanese democracy, in which political representatives haven't matured since high school.

Chinese town and village democracy is a farce, which is expected considering that China hasn't reached a sort of societal development conductive to democracy.
Hugham
Yes, China will became a democracy.

But it will be different from the western one.


We don't want to repeat the same mistake again and again. Only short minded, idiot and blind man who will accepting western democracy 100%. Basically China today is already a people centric government, it can be called as democracy as well. Although in my opinion, there are still a lot of room for improvement, but it definitely will be better than existed democracy in the west.

Read China Megatrend, is good book for China version of democracy. Written by the best seller author of American Megatrend published in around 1980.


Well......so far it just a dream for the future.
Hugham
QUOTE (Suijen @ Dec 14 2010, 10:40 PM) *
HK is ready for democracy. Hopefully it'd be a better democracy than the WTF that is Taiwanese democracy, in which political representatives haven't matured since high school.

Chinese town and village democracy is a farce, which is expected considering that China hasn't reached a sort of societal development conductive to democracy.


Taiwan........sign embarassedlaugh.gif

I think this country is on the brick of collapse or left behind. Probably Taiwanese will make an excuse by saying that most of the talented people move to mainland China and left Taiwan into stagnant.

Probably they were right, but seeing how low Taiwan score in PISA. I can see their politicians are retarded. Their cities are also very ugly and dirty. This is not the duty of common Taiwanese people, this is not affected by a migration of Taiwan's most talented people to mainland, but this is the duty of Taiwanese politicians and officials. By seeing all of this, I lose my hope for Taiwan.

Manage and formulating Taiwan education system or clean up the cities, you don't need to wait talented person to return. Why no politicians or officials self-motivated to fix all of these?


Taiwan democracy is also a big failure. If the democracy as good like those western media portrayed. How can no one in Taiwan realize this problem and protest to the government? Or all of them are being hypnotized by their media and assuming Taiwan is OK?
mndeg
democracy doesn't work

ClassicalMusic
QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Oct 15 2010, 12:03 PM) *
the CCP have met in Beijing to draw up economic plans for the next five years. amidst the Nobel Peace Prize row, china's agenda are increasingly becoming democracized. check this out:

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/artic...26890_3216.html

a summary of the essential points:

in the next 5-year plan, china wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.

china looks for ways to develop an economy that is not esport-dependent.

premier Wen jiabao has said "the calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistable" (in effect the china is admitting democracy will come and it won't be able to stop it)

some members in the CCP and the chinese media have said "if the chinese communist party does not reform itself, if it does not transform itself, it will die a natural death"



Wishful Thinking, they must be foreign puppets to advocate for democracy.
KraterosHellas
QUOTE (ClassicalMusic @ Jan 17 2011, 04:51 AM) *


Wishful Thinking, they must be foreign puppets to advocate for democracy.


perhaps democracy is the wrong word. i take that back. that word is so heavily laden with western connotations. by democracy i actually meant china is becoming more mindful and considerate for prosperity and well-being of the common people.
tseto
QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Jan 18 2011, 06:05 AM) *
perhaps democracy is the wrong word. i take that back. that word is so heavily laden with western connotations. by democracy i actually meant china is becoming more mindful and considerate for prosperity and well-being of the common people.



here is the full translation of the report in English, lets discuss the report, its content, connotations, feasibility of its intended goals. without our political orientation and personal differences. deep down I hope Dr, Sun Yet Sen's dream and his idealogy didn't died.


The Chinese Communist Party meets amid calls for democratization

The Plenum of the Communist Party of China opened in Beijing Friday, Oct. 15

Premier Wen Jiabao has created the surprise early October 15 with unpublished reports to U.S. television network CNN censored China, AP / Virginia Mayo
The Plenum of the Communist Party of China opened in Beijing Friday, Oct. 15 admids multiple calls for democratization in China, encouraged by the award of the Nobel Peace dissident Liu Xiaobo a week ago. Officially, the five-year plan 2011-2015, which is on the agenda of the plenary session taking place behind closed doors in a large hotel in downtown Beijing. But it could be the scene of intense political battles.

The 12th Five Year Plan should contain few surprises and validate the policy now to promote domestic demand to reduce the dependence of China's exports and improve social security coverage to avoid a further deepening the gap between rich and the poor. However, political reforms should generate debate, probably alive, as we approach the end of the mandates of President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao in 2013

UNPUBLISHED REPORTS

Wen, generally perceived as more liberal than Mr. Hu, was created in early October surprise with unpublished reports to U.S. television network CNN, censored in China. "I believe freedom of expression is essential in all countries, he said, calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistible." "Recent statements by Wen Jiabao represent the opinion of a faction within the party that hopes to move quickly [on the reform plan], but this faction does not necessarily prevail, "said Willy Lam of the Chinese University of Hong Kong

This week, former senior officials of the CPC and Chinese media have challenged the government in a very direct style petition denouncing the lack of freedom of expression. "If the Communist Party did not reform itself, if not transformed, he will die a natural death, " say the authors of the letter published on the Internet before being cleared by the censors. On Friday, another bold letter gathering hundreds of signatures calling on leaders to free the Nobel Liu Xiaobo and other dissenters, and to "implement a peaceful social transition to make China a democratic country, endowed with rule of law worthy of the name

A week after the award of the Nobel Peace Prize, Beijing is still furious. Blaming the West, the Global Times newspaper, close to the regime, insisted Friday on the "progressive political reform" under way in China and "stability [that] the Chinese cherish


KraterosHellas
QUOTE (tseto @ Feb 15 2011, 11:14 PM) *
here is the full translation of the report in English, lets discuss the report, its content, connotations, feasibility of its intended goals. without our political orientation and personal differences. deep down I hope Dr, Sun Yet Sen's dream and his idealogy didn't died.


The Chinese Communist Party meets amid calls for democratization

The Plenum of the Communist Party of China opened in Beijing Friday, Oct. 15

Premier Wen Jiabao has created the surprise early October 15 with unpublished reports to U.S. television network CNN censored China, AP / Virginia Mayo
The Plenum of the Communist Party of China opened in Beijing Friday, Oct. 15 admids multiple calls for democratization in China, encouraged by the award of the Nobel Peace dissident Liu Xiaobo a week ago. Officially, the five-year plan 2011-2015, which is on the agenda of the plenary session taking place behind closed doors in a large hotel in downtown Beijing. But it could be the scene of intense political battles.

The 12th Five Year Plan should contain few surprises and validate the policy now to promote domestic demand to reduce the dependence of China's exports and improve social security coverage to avoid a further deepening the gap between rich and the poor. However, political reforms should generate debate, probably alive, as we approach the end of the mandates of President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao in 2013

UNPUBLISHED REPORTS

Wen, generally perceived as more liberal than Mr. Hu, was created in early October surprise with unpublished reports to U.S. television network CNN, censored in China. "I believe freedom of expression is essential in all countries, he said, calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistible." "Recent statements by Wen Jiabao represent the opinion of a faction within the party that hopes to move quickly [on the reform plan], but this faction does not necessarily prevail, "said Willy Lam of the Chinese University of Hong Kong

This week, former senior officials of the CPC and Chinese media have challenged the government in a very direct style petition denouncing the lack of freedom of expression. "If the Communist Party did not reform itself, if not transformed, he will die a natural death, " say the authors of the letter published on the Internet before being cleared by the censors. On Friday, another bold letter gathering hundreds of signatures calling on leaders to free the Nobel Liu Xiaobo and other dissenters, and to "implement a peaceful social transition to make China a democratic country, endowed with rule of law worthy of the name

A week after the award of the Nobel Peace Prize, Beijing is still furious. Blaming the West, the Global Times newspaper, close to the regime, insisted Friday on the "progressive political reform" under way in China and "stability [that] the Chinese cherish


u're going to see more of this in the future as the common people become wealthier and more educated and internationally exposed. it will come gradually and peacefully. nothing like the french revolution. i hope the pro-reform faction does prevail. if not now we'll definitely see more of them in the next generation of leaders.
elleX0
What ever form of government evolves in China, it will never imitate the American Democratic model. Each country has to develop a government that suits it people, its culture, its religion, its philosophy, its effectiveness to rule. China has 1.5 billion people and not all of them are law abiding types, and so the laws have to be tailored accordingly.
PeterKChan
I am OK and support democracy in China (as I assume this was the same vision Dr. Sun had in his days), only if:

1) the democracy is on Chinese people's own terms (no foreign influences or infiltration)
2) China be allowed to continue expanding its military and never become a 'lap dog' (Mao's term) to the West, jewish, etc.
3) the currency and economy be kept in its original structure and not align totally with West (just look at South Korea and Japan being at West's mercy)
elleX0
China should draw up their own Civil Rights, or Bill of Rights to suite China and to counter-balance the Universal Convention of Human Rights.
KraterosHellas
QUOTE (elleX0 @ Feb 20 2011, 11:41 AM) *
China should draw up their own Civil Rights, or Bill of Rights to suite China and to counter-balance the Universal Convention of Human Rights.

i think the prc will allow at least that.
Suijen
QUOTE (elleX0 @ Feb 21 2011, 01:41 AM) *
China should draw up their own Civil Rights, or Bill of Rights to suite China and to counter-balance the Universal Convention of Human Rights.

You mean its constitution? The PRC still follows the UN Human Rights Charter; it's just that it emphasizes some things more than others.


elleX0
I did not realise there have been several replies that I should be making. There can be some confusion about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that nation states have signed up to and tried to observe. This Declaration was drawn up by Western Nations to suit their vision of what "Human Rights" should be according to their own standards, which is a Western Christian Standard.

Some of us (civilians) in Britain seem to get the impression that these Human Rights seem to protect the criminal more than it protects the innocent victim. This may sound crazy, but in Britain we cannot deport some Jihadist terrorist criminals (proven in a court of law as such) to their country of origin because their original country still observe the death penalty and so we would be violating the criminals Human Rights. So we have to keep such criminals in Britain, provide them with all the "welfare benefits" housing, medical, schooling, etc at taxpayers expense. Most of them even have a higher standard of living as a convicted criminal out on license than the local inhabitants. This is crazy.

We even have to let in known murderers and other criminals because of the EU laws of immigration and we cannot stop them. Our national sovereignty has been neutralised because of the Human Rights conventions and EU regulations. It has become farcical. So much so that Britain has raised the possibility of writing our own "Bill of Rights" in order to regain some independence for our legal system. This is what I mean that the Human Rights Declaration has been badly written and has neutered national sovereignty. This must change.

Also the Islamic Ummah has sought to draft their own codes for Islamic Human Rights and it is quite different from that of the UN version. To compare go to this link:
Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights

China's problems are different from that in Europe and America and they should have their own codes to follow. It should be similar but it should be adjusted to fit Eastern cultural needs.
Suijen
Canada has that problem also in deporting corrupt Chinese officials and businessmen back to China. Because their crimes are considered quite heinous, it is probable that they'd be executed, so Canada keeps the officials there for humanitarian reasons.

But as I understand it, the Human Rights Declaration is not enforceable, but really more of a set of aspirations for countries to follow.
African

Its good to be honest with what one says.
ReindeerGirl
Hi all,
It would be interesting to see how China would approach democracy. I'm sure it wont be the same style as the US and most likely better for that. Westerners often try to demonize communism but China has been redefining those definitions to uniquely fit China ( as democracy isnt the only way to have a successful government ).
It may also help bring more stability to the east asian region and help take away reasons for U.S. to be in SK and Japan. As a korean, it really bothers me for that region to be militiarily colonized by western powers. Id much rather prefer for them to leave. This isnt to say that they havent helped us (from Japan) but I mean, the entire reason Japan was on a rampage was to drive Britain, France, and Russia from our region.

I think its also essential to realize that democracy =/= western and communism =/= non western
Theyre just both paths to manage a country. If we really wanted to pick at it, neither forms of government are really asian at all. Communism is German (marx) and Lenin(RUssian) . Maybe China can create a new style thats none of those things! They kind of are...

SOrry for the scattered post! icon_smile.gif
elleX0
QUOTE (ReindeerGirl @ May 6 2011, 03:28 AM) *
Hi all,
It would be interesting to see how China would approach democracy. I'm sure it wont be the same style as the US and most likely better for that. Westerners often try to demonize communism but China has been redefining those definitions to uniquely fit China ( as democracy isnt the only way to have a successful government ).
It may also help bring more stability to the east asian region and help take away reasons for U.S. to be in SK and Japan. As a korean, it really bothers me for that region to be militiarily colonized by western powers. Id much rather prefer for them to leave. This isnt to say that they havent helped us (from Japan) but I mean, the entire reason Japan was on a rampage was to drive Britain, France, and Russia from our region.

I think its also essential to realize that democracy =/= western and communism =/= non western
Theyre just both paths to manage a country. If we really wanted to pick at it, neither forms of government are really asian at all. Communism is German (marx) and Lenin(RUssian) . Maybe China can create a new style thats none of those things! They kind of are...

SOrry for the scattered post! icon_smile.gif


ReindeerGirl, you have actually expressed yourself well. Western democracy may fit America well, because of their religious, educational, historical, and cultural past, but it definitely is not suitable for places like China, or India, or Africa, where the history, culture, religion and history is so much different from that in the West. That America feels that their form of democracy should be adopted by all is sheer arrogance and stupidity. The mental attitudes of a common Chinese or Indian is entirely different from that of a caucasian walking around in Chicago or New York or Paris, so why should some alien system be imposed upon them? Let them evolved their own system which they have for the past 4000 year successfully or they would not be around today.
x22x
QUOTE (elleX0 @ May 7 2011, 03:20 AM) *
ReindeerGirl, you have actually expressed yourself well. Western democracy may fit America well, because of their religious, educational, historical, and cultural past, but it definitely is not suitable for places like China, or India, or Africa, where the history, culture, religion and history is so much different from that in the West. That America feels that their form of democracy should be adopted by all is sheer arrogance and stupidity. The mental attitudes of a common Chinese or Indian is entirely different from that of a caucasian walking around in Chicago or New York or Paris, so why should some alien system be imposed upon them? Let them evolved their own system which they have for the past 4000 year successfully or they would not be around today.



This dream of the whites for a "one government" system around the world has instigated a lot of catastrophic incidents which wiped out millions of innocent lives across the globe. So much sin and blood in their hands.
elleX0
QUOTE (x22x @ Sep 5 2011, 09:38 PM) *
This dream of the whites for a "one government" system around the world has instigated a lot of catastrophic incidents which wiped out millions of innocent lives across the globe. So much sin and blood in their hands.

x22, that must be the primitive tribal culture surfacing from the sub-conscious? Conformity?
LoveNStrife
The key is not how the government is chosen, but how interventionist the government is.

A democracy which controls every aspect your life is worse than a authoritarian regime which leaves you alone.
freezingpoint
QUOTE (LoveNStrife @ Sep 6 2011, 01:01 PM) *
The key is not how the government is chosen, but how interventionist the government is.

A democracy which controls every aspect your life is worse than a authoritarian regime which leaves you alone.


i disagree. Iran is a far better place to live in than the Congo and this is typical "totalitarian democracy" vs. "noninterventionist autocracy".

The military dictatorship in the Congo is so noninterventionist, if you get shot in the head with an AK-47 it won't care.
LoveNStrife
QUOTE (freezingpoint @ Sep 6 2011, 01:30 PM) *
i disagree. Iran is a far better place to live in than the Congo and this is typical "totalitarian democracy" vs. "noninterventionist autocracy".

The military dictatorship in the Congo is so noninterventionist, if you get shot in the head with an AK-47 it won't care.


Well, personally I don't know much about Congo, but I would doubt your comparison is particularly apt. A country I regard as generally minimalist would be Switzerland. As a city, Hong Kong is a good example, too.

China is in a strange sort of way libertarian - For instance, it's far easier to start up a restaurant in China than in the US. This is because the government does not have enough power to enforce its regulations. Right now, it's still possible to succeed in China as an entrepreneur. In a decade, this will no longer be possible.

I don't know much about Iran, but from what I understand, the government survives by "bread and circus". The economy is wrecked, it's running out of oil, etc.

A good example of interventionism would be France and other European countries. Some people like France. There's no doubt, however, that the European economy is hampered by excessive rules and regulations. I personally would not want to live there.

When bureaucracy becomes too big, it drains productive power away from society. Sometimes, this merely stifles the dynamism of the society. Sometimes, it leads to a hard fall when the government must radical downsize.

A quote from Mencius would be appropriate here:

尊賢使能,俊傑在位,則天下之士皆悅而願立於其朝矣。市廛而不征,法而不廛,則天下之商皆悅而願藏於其市矣。關譏而不征,則天下之旅皆悅而願出於其路矣。耕者助而不稅,則天下之農皆悅而願耕於其野矣。廛無夫里之布,則天下之民皆悅而願為之氓矣。信能行此五者,則鄰國之民仰之若父母矣。率其子弟,攻其父母,自生民以來,未有能濟者也。如此,則無敵於天下。無敵於天下者,天吏也。然而不王者,未之有也。

As we can see, Mencius was in favour of a low tax rate. When a country has low tax rates, then merchants will go to it from all over the world. People from other places would also want to immigrate there.

This is not to say there should be no tax. Instead, the correct tax rate is roughly ten percent:

曰:夫貉,五穀不生,惟黍生之。無城郭、宮室、宗廟、祭祀之禮,無諸侯幣帛饔飧,無百官有司,故二十取一而足也。今居中國,去人倫,無君子,如之何其可也?陶以寡,且不可以為國,況無君子乎?欲輕之於堯舜之道者,大貉小貉也;欲重之於堯舜之道者,大桀小桀也。

Both Switzerland and Hong Kong have slightly higher tax rates than this, but they approximate Mencius's recommendation. These are also two well-known, prosperous small places, which have flourished despite having few natural resources.
martin_nuke
Democracy means freedom of Religion which Buddhism, Christianity and Islam will have freedom to practice and will spread very fast but is PRC ready for that?
LoveNStrife
QUOTE (martin_nuke @ Sep 6 2011, 05:07 PM) *
Democracy means freedom of Religion which Buddhism, Christianity and Islam will have freedom to practice and will spread very fast but is PRC ready for that?


Yes, if China became democratic, then religion will become the center of Chinese political, social, and cultural life, just like Korea or the US.

I'm not sure which religion will dominate, though. I think Christianity already has a foothold in China which cannot be easily shaken, but China will not become a Christian-majority country like South Korea. Current politics favours Buddhism - I have great hopes for it.
port19
Take for example Greece..the root of democracy?? Now it's CHAOS there! We also don't know who is now in charge there? One guy say this, the other guy says that. Almost monthly you have demonstrations. Nobody is doing work but keep on demonstrating. And even in democracy, they afraid of enacting a referendum(basic right of democracy) to consult the people on majority of issues. Look at UK PM, stopping referendum plan in parliment when their own people calls for it. Greece as well, stopping referendum and has to take orders from Germans & Frenchies. Greece is now like a slave country.
KraterosHellas
QUOTE (port19 @ Nov 9 2011, 08:11 PM) *
Take for example Greece..the root of democracy?? Now it's CHAOS there! We also don't know who is now in charge there? One guy say this, the other guy says that. Almost monthly you have demonstrations. Nobody is doing work but keep on demonstrating. And even in democracy, they afraid of enacting a referendum(basic right of democracy) to consult the people on majority of issues. Look at UK PM, stopping referendum plan in parliment when their own people calls for it. Greece as well, stopping referendum and has to take orders from Germans & Frenchies. Greece is now like a slave country.


the problem with europe right now is the LACK of democracy. the EU have been continuosly and incrementally scraping away national democracy and self-determination in its constituent member states for a while now. it was politcally motivated and now it's failing eocnomically. EU is basically a leviathan without its head. it's autocratic within (which is not healthy model for a a group of 27 different countries and cultures) and interally dysfunctional. i thinkt he best model for china is to keep the strong autocratic exterior but build democracy at the domestic level so u don't get anything like what's happening in the EU
port19
Yes EU loses it's individualism & independence. Greece economic problem started like a cancer, and it's spreading. If one member cannot get their house in order, what to expect? Probably they have to amputate Greece first before let it join later. Too fast, too soon. The prospect of long recession in EU likely for certain member states.
truthfinder
QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Oct 15 2010, 02:03 PM) *
the CCP have met in Beijing to draw up economic plans for the next five years. amidst the Nobel Peace Prize row, china's agenda are increasingly becoming democracized. check this out:

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/artic...26890_3216.html

a summary of the essential points:

in the next 5-year plan, china wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.

china looks for ways to develop an economy that is not esport-dependent.

premier Wen jiabao has said "the calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistable" (in effect the china is admitting democracy will come and it won't be able to stop it)

some members in the CCP and the chinese media have said "if the chinese communist party does not reform itself, if it does not transform itself, it will die a natural death"



First of all, it must be clearly stated that liberal democracy is just but one form of democracy and there are countless other kind of democracies out there.

The words "democracy", "freedom" and "human rights" have been so distorted as if the only kind of democracy that have the former characteristics is liberal democracy.

It's not democracy vs authoritarians; it should be liberal democracy vs democracy with Chinese or other characteristics

China will not and should not become a liberal democracy - ever.

It will only ruins China - that's for sure......isn't that what's the west want ???

While it's true that China officially has only a party, many people don't realize that there are many factions within the CCP itself.

No matter what differences they have with each other, all factions will make sure that the policies will be executed as soon as possible.

This is the complete opposite with liberal democracy where you have parties bickering and blocking each other proposals - delaying the implementation of policies...

zerohunt
QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Oct 15 2010, 02:03 PM) *
the CCP have met in Beijing to draw up economic plans for the next five years. amidst the Nobel Peace Prize row, china's agenda are increasingly becoming democracized. check this out:

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/artic...26890_3216.html

a summary of the essential points:

in the next 5-year plan, china wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.

china looks for ways to develop an economy that is not esport-dependent.

premier Wen jiabao has said "the calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistable" (in effect the china is admitting democracy will come and it won't be able to stop it)

some members in the CCP and the chinese media have said "if the chinese communist party does not reform itself, if it does not transform itself, it will die a natural death"


Hy i live in Germany EU and would really recommend china NOT to have Democracy,

Democracy my be nice in the short term but in the long term it caused unsolvable problems in europe,

one reason is, that democratic voted leaders dont think for the good of their people in the long term as they just care about short term success.

u can see that on europe best, europe lost its military power as the people are not united anymore they are divided into many parties everbody cares of his materialistic success.

another point is the clash of cultures between the west and the muslim world in our time,
america will, but europe will not survive it at is it not able to get rid of the islamification problem as the growing muslim minorities can use democraty to divide the people will and to establish their crazy idea of a God State.

human rights ideal are useless against muslims as they just care what koran says, and so today we have the situation in europe that while in egypt christians get a double high taxation rate per head to force them to convert, in europe the "christian" society is divided how to treat their muslim minority.

democracy and human rights will be closed as a chapter in human history soon forget that $hit. keep your dictature and try it to preserve your kulture in the long term.
elleX0
QUOTE (zerohunt @ Dec 25 2011, 08:55 PM) *
Hy i live in Germany EU and would really recommend china NOT to have Democracy,

Democracy my be nice in the short term but in the long term it caused unsolvable problems in europe,

one reason is, that democratic voted leaders dont think for the good of their people in the long term as they just care about short term success.

u can see that on europe best, europe lost its military power as the people are not united anymore they are divided into many parties everbody cares of his materialistic success.

another point is the clash of cultures between the west and the muslim world in our time,
america will, but europe will not survive it at is it not able to get rid of the islamification problem as the growing muslim minorities can use democraty to divide the people will and to establish their crazy idea of a God State.

human rights ideal are useless against muslims as they just care what koran says, and so today we have the situation in europe that while in egypt christians get a double high taxation rate per head to force them to convert, in europe the "christian" society is divided how to treat their muslim minority.

democracy and human rights will be closed as a chapter in human history soon forget that $hit. keep your dictature and try it to preserve your kulture in the long term.

Zerohunt, I agree with you that the present obsession with Democracy is a Red Herring particularly with the threat of totalitarian ideologies that are determined to exploit the weaknesses of the democratic system.
zerohunt
jeah thats the problem but u can see similar situation in other countries which follow this stupid western ideal of equality in religion and democracy, take Kashmir Region in India,

this region got islamisifcated (in past it was lika pakistan banglades, afghanistan and indonesia ;-) hindu and Buddist) and is ongoing get islamificated by pakistan, taliban and al quida, --> india cannot do something against because its garanteeing religious freedom but now they are promoting seperatism riots in order to cut the region out of india.
this will happen to china's provinzes too if china is so stupid and follow this ideals, which openly allow cultural fights via religions
elleX0
PRC will never accept democracy if that means the country is open for revolution.
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