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Prau123
Where did Tagalogs come from? I've seen several conflicting sources.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batangas#The_...storic_Batangas

QUOTE
It was not long when Datu Puti realised that the Dominion became too crowded and decided to find another place where he and his dominion could find a greener pasteur. He then left the Confederation under the rule of Datu Sumakwel (said to be the wisest among the three rulers of the Madia-as Confederation) and sailed further North with Datu Balensusa and Datu Domangsil. There, they found a place of many rivers that drained into the present day Taal Lake. Here, Datu Puti founded the Kingdom of the Tagalogs, with its centre in the present day Balayan and extended up to the present day provinces of Quezon, Rizal, Cavite, Minodro, Marinduque and even some parts of Romblon and Palawan. Later, studies suggested that the Kingdom included the present day Metropolitan Manila, Bulacan, Bataan, parts of Nueva Ecija, Tarlac and Zambales. Today, all of these provinces have a significant population of Tagalogs.


I've heard of this Tagalog founding story before, but it is based upon the 10 Datu Legend, but is there actual archaeological evidence to support this?


Check this website out: http://philreview.blogspot.com/2008/07/tagalog-origin.html

Here is an excerpt from it:

QUOTE
The origin of the Tagalogs is still disputed and speculation among linguists that the ancestors of the Tagalogs originated from their cultivating homeland or what is now Taal, Batangas, or from northeastern Mindanao or eastern Visayas (according to linguists such as Dr. David Zorc and Dr. Robert Blust) where their closer linguistic kinsmen (the Visayans) dwelled. The primary centers of Tagalog civilization were based in riverine deltas, especially those in what are now Manila, Taal in Batangas, Pila in Laguna, and scattered townships along Manila Bay.
Batangas is generally considered and accepted by linguists as the 'Heart of the Tagalog Language' as the dialect of Tagalog spoken here closely resembles the Tagalog spoken before the arrival of the Spanish. Therefore, a strong presence of the Tagalog Culture is clearly visible until now. Though generally intelligible to speakers of other dialects, such as the Manila and Tayabas dialects, the vocabulary of the Batangan Dialect is more closely related to the ancient Tagalog. Rarely do Batangueños use Taglish, name given to a mix of English and Tagalog, as the custom in Manila.

Although it is widely accepted that the term Tagalog came from the word 'Taga-Ilog' o river dwellers, (referring to the Pasig River of former Rizal province towns and Manila), Wang The-Ming pointed out in his writings that Batangas was the real centre of the Tagalog Tribe, which he then identified as Ma-yi. According to this Chinese Annals, Ma-yi had its centre in Batangas and extends northwards to Cavite, Bataan (thru Cavite), Laguna, Quezon, Manila, Rizal, and ending in Bulacan (the reason why Pampanga and some parts of Nueva Ecija is not infiltrated), and southwards in the provinces of Mindoro, Marinduque and island of Lubang, some parts of Zambales (thru Bataan), Nueva Ecija (thru Bulacan) and Tarlac (thru Nueva Ecija) and now spreading in some parts of Aurora (thru Quezon and Bulacan), Palawan (thru Mindoro), Camarines Norte (thru Quezon) and northern part of Camarines Sur in Bicol.







Maria Kalaw Katigbak, a Filipino historian, was quoted to call the Batangueños the Super-Tagalogs. This is because these group of people belonging to the Tagalog stock is the paramount example of what one can expect from this ethnolinguistic group. Added to that, many historians interchangeably use the term Tagalog and Batangueño. An extremely rare example of pre-Spanish Tagalog script was found in Calatagan, Batangas. The script is called Baybayin, and was derived from Javanese writing, which in turn is derived from Brahmi. This writing survives on an earthenware burial jar dated 1200s or 1300s.

Theoretically, if Manila had been the center of Tagalog, province of Pampanga and some parts of northern provinces in Luzon will be much widely infiltrated by the Tagalog language.


It looks like all we know is that the heartland of the Tagalog people was Taal, Batangas, and they were likely founded there in Luzon. But we still don't know where they came from before that. According to this article, they may have come from Eastern Visayas or Northeastern Mindanao based upon linguistic analysis. If this is true, then the Tagalogs do not match the 10 Datu Legend. They are not the same people in the legend where Datu Puti from Panay moves on to Southern Luzon to found the Tagalog people in Taal, Batangas!!!

If any of this is true, then it is likely that the Tagalog people were a Visayan-related group. Also, if the Tagalogs are the ancestors (or at least one of the ancestors) of the Bicolanos, then the Bicolanos are a Visayan-related group as well?

But what happened to the theory that the Tagalogs and Kapampangans were related, and originated from Sumatra or Peninsular Malaysia???

------------------------

Edit 1-9-2011: According to Wikipedia, it looks like the Tagalogs originated from the same area as the other Central Philippine language groups such as Ilonggo, Waray-Waray, Cebuano, Akeanon, Kinaray-a, Bicolano, and Mansakan. But is Tagalog closer to the Central Visayan languages like Ilonggo and Waray-Waray, or to the Western Visayan languages like Akeanon and Kinaray-a, or to Cebuano? That's the question.

QUOTE
Very little is known about the history of the language. However, according to linguists such as Dr. David Zorc and Dr. Robert Blust, the Tagalogs originated, along with their Central Philippine cousins, from Northeastern Mindanao or Eastern Visayas


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_language#cite_note-5
datumarco
QUOTE (Prau123 @ Jan 5 2011, 06:06 AM) *
Where did Tagalogs come from? I've seen several conflicting sources.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batangas#The_...storic_Batangas



I've heard of this Tagalog founding story before, but it is based upon the 10 Datu Legend, but is there actual archaeological evidence to support this?


Check this website out: http://philreview.blogspot.com/2008/07/tagalog-origin.html

Here is an excerpt from it:



It looks like all we know is that the heartland of the Tagalog people was Taal, Batangas, and they were likely founded there in Luzon. But we still don't know where they came from before that. According to this article, they may have come from Eastern Visayas or Northeastern Mindanao based upon linguistic analysis. If this is true, then the Tagalogs do not match the 10 Datu Legend. They are not the same people in the legend where Datu Puti from Panay moves on to Southern Luzon to found the Tagalog people in Taal, Batangas!!!

If any of this is true, then it is likely that the Tagalog people were a Visayan-related group. Also, if the Tagalogs are the ancestors (or at least one of the ancestors) of the Bicolanos, then the Bicolanos are a Visayan-related group as well?

But what happened to the theory that the Tagalogs and Kapampangans were related, and originated from Sumatra or Peninsular Malaysia???

------------------------

Edit 1-9-2011: According to Wikipedia, it looks like the Tagalogs originated from the same area as the other Central Philippine language groups such as Ilonggo, Waray-Waray, Cebuano, Akeanon, Kinaray-a, Bicolano, and Mansakan. But is Tagalog closer to the Central Visayan languages like Ilonggo and Waray-Waray, or to the Western Visayan languages like Akeanon and Kinaray-a, or to Cebuano? That's the question.



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_language#cite_note-5



compare the political organiation of these two ancients kinfgdoms

confederation of madyaas : location panay philippines.

The Confederation of Madya-as was a pre-Hispanic Philippine state within the Visayas island region. It was established in the 13th century by rebel datus (chiefs), led by Datu Puti, who had fled from Rajah Makatunao of Borneo. The semi-democratic confederation reached its peak during the 15th century under the leadership Datu Padojinog when it warred against the Chinese Empire, the Rajahnate of Butuan, and the sultanates of Sulu and Maguindanao. It was also feared by the people of the Kingdom of Maynila and Tondo.[1] It was conquered after the Spanish conquest in 1569 by Miguel Lopez de Legaspi and his grandson Juan de Salcedo.

The ancient Kingdom of Namayan, alternately referred to as the Kingdom of Sapa, Maysapan or Nasapan after its capital which goes by those names, was one of three major kingdoms that dominated the area around the upper portion of the Pasig River and the coast of Laguna Lake in the Philippines before the arrival of Spanish colonizers in the 16th century.

Namayan is said to be the oldest of the three kingdoms, pre-dating the kingdoms of Tondo and Maynila.[1] Formed by a confederation of barangays, it is said to have achieved its peak in 1175.[2]

notice the common political structure???

*** note on linguistics - language changes with time, for discussions of the development of hiligaynon vs kiniray.a and akeanon please see my post on filipino chat >kiniray.a akeanon maybe pre - visayan.

The 10 datu hypothesis might be valid.

There are three ancient kingdoms in luon, i.e. tondo, maynila and sapa/namayan. sapa namayan might be the kingdom founded by the confederation settlers.

on the other hand language might not enter the equation at all. since language would actually be fluid and would change. in face there are some towns in samar (waray waray) notably borongan eastern samar whose waray dialect sound and is similar to karay.a (this area is also near bicol). The probelm with using linguistics is that the source data/ that language cannot always be correlated with ethnicity. (e.) filipinos speaking english in the modern era...

tagalog might be decendants of hiligaynon, tagalo "taga ilog", hiligaynon "ilig" gaynon. - ilig meaning river/flow.

filipinoy
QUOTE
But what happened to the theory that the Tagalogs and Kapampangans were related, and originated from Sumatra or Peninsular Malaysia???

theres a theory that tagalogs came from sumatera???

not exactly related.. it was more like Tagalog-Kapampangan alliance/relations. even up to the revolution.. the 8 rays of the sun.. pampanga is the only non-tagalog province among the first 8. the president of kkk katagalugan was believe to be kapampangan too


just listen to the language, tagalogs structure & sound..is more like languages of visayas & mindanao than other luzon languages like kapampangan or ilocano


even this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4TwMjRZaMA tausug (a few days from manila by ferry).. still sounds familiar ( im not sure where was this shot.. )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4MFHInQr2E pangasinense (a few hours from manila by car) ...sounds really different to me


ocrapdm
QUOTE (filipinoy @ Feb 4 2011, 05:31 PM) *
theres a theory that tagalogs came from sumatera???

not exactly related.. it was more like Tagalog-Kapampangan alliance/relations. even up to the revolution.. the 8 rays of the sun.. pampanga is the only non-tagalog province among the first 8. the president of kkk katagalugan was believe to be kapampangan too

just listen to the language, tagalogs structure & sound..is more like languages of visayas & mindanao than other luzon languages like kapampangan or ilocano


It was an old theory from Otley Beyer. That theory pertaining to Sumatra origins of Tagalogs and Kapampangans is now discredited.

Kapampangan comes from Northern Philippine Languages subgroup, whereas Tagalog comes from the Central Philippine Languages subgroup (which also contains the Visayan languages).

It could be said that the Tagalog people are the northernmost push of the Visayans - although the same can't be certainly said for Bicolanos - who might be the early progenitors of the future Visayans (explaining the similarity in language), rather than descendants of Visayans.
filipinoy
QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Feb 7 2011, 08:30 PM) *
It was an old theory from Otley Beyer. That theory pertaining to Sumatra origins of Tagalogs and Kapampangans is now discredited.

Kapampangan comes from Northern Philippine Languages subgroup, whereas Tagalog comes from the Central Philippine Languages subgroup (which also contains the Visayan languages).

It could be said that the Tagalog people are the northernmost push of the Visayans - although the same can't be certainly said for Bicolanos - who might be the early progenitors of the future Visayans (explaining the similarity in language), rather than descendants of Visayans.

although kapampangan languages(includes sinauna, sambal, aeta, etc).. are not very closely related with northern luzon nor southern luzon/visayas languages, so instead have a separate group

Najjiah
we come from bollywood. thats why we're hot.
filipinoy
QUOTE (Najjiah @ Feb 7 2011, 09:05 PM) *
we come from bollywood. thats why we're hot.

lol wth.. don't you mean baliwag....... bulacan embarassedlaugh.gif
Prau123
QUOTE (filipinoy @ Feb 4 2011, 05:31 AM) *
theres a theory that tagalogs came from sumatera???

not exactly related.. it was more like Tagalog-Kapampangan alliance/relations. even up to the revolution.. the 8 rays of the sun.. pampanga is the only non-tagalog province among the first 8. the president of kkk katagalugan was believe to be kapampangan too


just listen to the language, tagalogs structure & sound..is more like languages of visayas & mindanao than other luzon languages like kapampangan or ilocano


even this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4TwMjRZaMA tausug (a few days from manila by ferry).. still sounds familiar ( im not sure where was this shot.. )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4MFHInQr2E pangasinense (a few hours from manila by car) ...sounds really different to me


I agree that Tagalog, and perhaps the Tagalog people as well, are not related to the Northern Philippine languages such as Kapampangan or Ilokano. There was just that theory from that Wikipedia article that I wanted to present.

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Feb 7 2011, 11:30 PM) *
It was an old theory from Otley Beyer. That theory pertaining to Sumatra origins of Tagalogs and Kapampangans is now discredited.

Kapampangan comes from Northern Philippine Languages subgroup, whereas Tagalog comes from the Central Philippine Languages subgroup (which also contains the Visayan languages).

It could be said that the Tagalog people are the northernmost push of the Visayans - although the same can't be certainly said for Bicolanos - who might be the early progenitors of the future Visayans (explaining the similarity in language), rather than descendants of Visayans.


I too thought that Bicolanos could be the forebears of the Visayans, but the linguistic diversity is higher at the western end of the Visayas compared to the eastern end or the center. Bicolano is still considered one language, but with perhaps up to 12 dialects. Bisakol is considered one language and covers southern Bicol, and sometimes includes Masbate. Waray-Waray is spoken throughout Samar and northeastern Leyte. Cebuano is spoken throughout Cebu island, Bohol (Boholano is considered only a dialect of Cebuano), southern Leyte, and of course much of Mindanao due mostly from recent migration. Surigaonon is spoken throughout northeastern Mindanao.

But Panay alone has 6 Visayan languages: Ilonggo, Capiznon, Akeanon, Kinaray-a, Suludnon, and Ati. Romblon has 3 Visayan languages: Asi, Onhan, and Romblomanon. And then you have the odd balls such as Caluyanon, Cuyonon, and Ratagnon found west of Panay.

But it could be that the Bicolanos were the forebears of just the Central Visayan languages, but even then the western side of the Central Visayan languages seem to be more diversified. What's really strange is that within the Central Visayan languages there is a subfamily called the Peripheral Central Visayan languages which include Hiligaynon (Ilonggo), Capiznon, Masbatenyo, and Porohanon. Romblomanon is not considered part of this subfamily! and neither is Waray-Waray. It could be that Hiligaynon was taken up from Iloilo to Capiz then to Masbate and then to Camotes Islands (where Porohanon is spoken) suggesting a separate and later migration of this language, or a language shift. It had bypassed Romblon altogether, and Leyte and Samar as well. The Central Visayan languages may have migrated twice in history with the second migration creating the Peripheral Central Visayan language subfamily. By the way, it does not have to start in Iloilo, and it could have started in Masbate or Capiz or even the Camotes Islands, although the Camotes Islands are quite small and far away from the other islands.

Now these are linguistic arguments which may or may not mean anything. It could be that the Bicol region is where the Visayans originated, and that we don't know why the Visayan languages diversified the way they did in the Visayas. The Bicol region is after all a peninsula much like northeastern Mindanao which is where the Butuan kingdom resided which is where some people believe to be the origins of the Visayans. Peninsulas are wonderful places for migratory take-off points. We also still have to relate all these languages to the Butuan kingdom, and to the Tausugs of the Sulu archipelago.

Please look at the diagram in this link. Just scroll down a little bit, and you will see a tree diagram of the Philippine languages. You will notice that the Peripheral Central Visayan language subfamily is the lowest division in the diagram.

http://sanrokan.com/newsanrokan/archives/j...ature_lobel.htm
ocrapdm
QUOTE (filipinoy @ Feb 8 2011, 11:53 AM) *
although kapampangan languages(includes sinauna, sambal, aeta, etc).. are not very closely related with northern luzon nor southern luzon/visayas languages, so instead have a separate group



I think I read before that the Kapampangan language is a mixture of both Northern and Central Philippine linguistic groups.

I had community exposure in Pampanga - AND learned some Kapampangan words too (but I forgot most of it). Based on what I remember, half are similar to Tagalog, and half are Ilocano sounding, I guess..
ocrapdm
QUOTE (Prau123 @ Feb 8 2011, 03:07 PM) *
I agree that Tagalog, and perhaps the Tagalog people as well, are not related to the Northern Philippine languages such as Kapampangan or Ilokano. There was just that theory from that Wikipedia article that I wanted to present.


I too thought that Bicolanos could be the forebears of the Visayans, but the linguistic diversity is higher at the western end of the Visayas compared to the eastern end or the center. Bicolano is still considered one language, but with perhaps up to 12 dialects. Bisakol is considered one language and covers southern Bicol, and sometimes includes Masbate. Waray-Waray is spoken throughout Samar and northeastern Leyte. Cebuano is spoken throughout Cebu island, Bohol (Boholano is considered only a dialect of Cebuano), southern Leyte, and of course much of Mindanao due mostly from recent migration. Surigaonon is spoken throughout northeastern Mindanao.

But Panay alone has 6 Visayan languages: Ilonggo, Capiznon, Akeanon, Kinaray-a, Suludnon, and Ati. Romblon has 3 Visayan languages: Asi, Onhan, and Romblomanon. And then you have the odd balls such as Caluyanon, Cuyonon, and Ratagnon found west of Panay.

But it could be that the Bicolanos were the forebears of just the Central Visayan languages, but even then the western side of the Central Visayan languages seem to be more diversified. What's really strange is that within the Central Visayan languages there is a subfamily called the Peripheral Central Visayan languages which include Hiligaynon (Ilonggo), Capiznon, Masbatenyo, and Porohanon. Romblomanon is not considered part of this subfamily! and neither is Waray-Waray. It could be that Hiligaynon was taken up from Iloilo to Capiz then to Masbate and then to Camotes Islands (where Porohanon is spoken) suggesting a separate and later migration of this language, or a language shift. It had bypassed Romblon altogether, and Leyte and Samar as well. The Central Visayan languages may have migrated twice in history with the second migration creating the Peripheral Central Visayan language subfamily. By the way, it does not have to start in Iloilo, and it could have started in Masbate or Capiz or even the Camotes Islands, although the Camotes Islands are quite small and far away from the other islands.

Now these are linguistic arguments which may or may not mean anything. It could be that the Bicol region is where the Visayans originated, and that we don't know why the Visayan languages diversified the way they did in the Visayas. The Bicol region is after all a peninsula much like northeastern Mindanao which is where the Butuan kingdom resided which is where some people believe to be the origins of the Visayans. Peninsulas are wonderful places for migratory take-off points. We also still have to relate all these languages to the Butuan kingdom, and to the Tausugs of the Sulu archipelago.

Please look at the diagram in this link. Just scroll down a little bit, and you will see a tree diagram of the Philippine languages. You will notice that the Peripheral Central Visayan language subfamily is the lowest division in the diagram.

http://sanrokan.com/newsanrokan/archives/j...ature_lobel.htm


Northern Tagalogs (Northern Manila, Bulacan, Zambales, Tarlac, Nueva Ecija) are probably Kapampangans who have been Tagalized. Southern Tagalogs (Rizal, Laguna, Cavite, Batangas, Quezon, and Camarines Norte) are definitely the descendants of Hiligaynons who went northward. This is why Batangueno peoples are frequently referred to as "Taal na Tagalog" (Real Tagalogs). As you can recall from the Datu arrival stories, the Hiligaynons who went upward landed in Batangas province near the municipality of Taal. When they landed there, most of the lands north of the Pasig (and even some of the lands south of Pasig) were already populated.

Pasig River was the southernmost extent of Kapampangan people when Legazpi arrived in Manila Bay, and the royal families of Pampanga and the Kingdom of Tondo then were relatives of each other.
datumarco
QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Feb 8 2011, 03:58 AM) *
Northern Tagalogs (Northern Manila, Bulacan, Zambales, Tarlac, Nueva Ecija) are probably Kapampangans who have been Tagalized. Southern Tagalogs (Rizal, Laguna, Cavite, Batangas, Quezon, and Camarines Norte) are definitely the descendants of Hiligaynons who went northward. This is why Batangueno peoples are frequently referred to as "Taal na Tagalog" (Real Tagalogs). As you can recall from the Datu arrival stories, the Hiligaynons who went upward landed in Batangas province near the municipality of Taal. When they landed there, most of the lands north of the Pasig (and even some of the lands south of Pasig) were already populated.

Pasig River was the southernmost extent of Kapampangan people when Legazpi arrived in Manila Bay, and the royal families of Pampanga and the Kingdom of Tondo then were relatives of each other.


i agree with you on this one. tagalogs may actaully be composed of people from the southern kingdom of sapa/ and the northern kingdom of tondo which is kapampangan. proximity would have made intermarriage possible and the groupd maybe a mixture..
Prau123
QUOTE (Prau123 @ Feb 8 2011, 03:07 AM) *
I agree that Tagalog, and perhaps the Tagalog people as well, are not related to the Northern Philippine languages such as Kapampangan or Ilokano. There was just that theory from that Wikipedia article that I wanted to present.



I too thought that Bicolanos could be the forebears of the Visayans, but the linguistic diversity is higher at the western end of the Visayas compared to the eastern end or the center. Bicolano is still considered one language, but with perhaps up to 12 dialects. Bisakol is considered one language and covers southern Bicol, and sometimes includes Masbate. Waray-Waray is spoken throughout Samar and northeastern Leyte. Cebuano is spoken throughout Cebu island, Bohol (Boholano is considered only a dialect of Cebuano), southern Leyte, and of course much of Mindanao due mostly from recent migration. Surigaonon is spoken throughout northeastern Mindanao.

But Panay alone has 6 Visayan languages: Ilonggo, Capiznon, Akeanon, Kinaray-a, Suludnon, and Ati. Romblon has 3 Visayan languages: Asi, Onhan, and Romblomanon. And then you have the odd balls such as Caluyanon, Cuyonon, and Ratagnon found west of Panay.

But it could be that the Bicolanos were the forebears of just the Central Visayan languages, but even then the western side of the Central Visayan languages seem to be more diversified. What's really strange is that within the Central Visayan languages there is a subfamily called the Peripheral Central Visayan languages which include Hiligaynon (Ilonggo), Capiznon, Masbatenyo, and Porohanon. Romblomanon is not considered part of this subfamily! and neither is Waray-Waray. It could be that Hiligaynon was taken up from Iloilo to Capiz then to Masbate and then to Camotes Islands (where Porohanon is spoken) suggesting a separate and later migration of this language, or a language shift. It had bypassed Romblon altogether, and Leyte and Samar as well. The Central Visayan languages may have migrated twice in history with the second migration creating the Peripheral Central Visayan language subfamily. By the way, it does not have to start in Iloilo, and it could have started in Masbate or Capiz or even the Camotes Islands, although the Camotes Islands are quite small and far away from the other islands.

Now these are linguistic arguments which may or may not mean anything. It could be that the Bicol region is where the Visayans originated, and that we don't know why the Visayan languages diversified the way they did in the Visayas. The Bicol region is after all a peninsula much like northeastern Mindanao which is where the Butuan kingdom resided which is where some people believe to be the origins of the Visayans. Peninsulas are wonderful places for migratory take-off points. We also still have to relate all these languages to the Butuan kingdom, and to the Tausugs of the Sulu archipelago.

Please look at the diagram in this link. Just scroll down a little bit, and you will see a tree diagram of the Philippine languages. You will notice that the Peripheral Central Visayan language subfamily is the lowest division in the diagram.

http://sanrokan.com/newsanrokan/archives/j...ature_lobel.htm


Here is another possibility that I will propose. There was only one Central Visayan language originally throughout northern Visayas. But overtime any language changes. The languages that change the most, are sometimes the ones that are most isolated, because they evolve toward their specific environmental niche. The languages that change the least, or change the slowest, are sometimes those that are constantly influenced or reminded of the old language. There seems to be heavy sea trade and traffic between Panay, Masbate, and Bicol (and between Masbate/Bicol to Camotes island and Cebu) which would constantly have forced or reminded the people within these sea routes to use the old Central Visayan language. But even these people would change their language over time (into modern Hiligaynon, Capiznon, Masbatenyo, and Porohanon), but since they evolved slowly together, they would be most related to one another, and thus forming the Peripheral Central Visayan language subfamily. The other Central Visayan languages, Romblomanon and Waray-Waray, evolved on their own (quicker) pace since they were not influenced and reminded of the old Central Visayan language since Romblon, Samar, and Leyte are away from these main sea routes.

QUOTE (ocrapdm @ Feb 8 2011, 04:58 AM) *
Northern Tagalogs (Northern Manila, Bulacan, Zambales, Tarlac, Nueva Ecija) are probably Kapampangans who have been Tagalized. Southern Tagalogs (Rizal, Laguna, Cavite, Batangas, Quezon, and Camarines Norte) are definitely the descendants of Hiligaynons who went northward. This is why Batangueno peoples are frequently referred to as "Taal na Tagalog" (Real Tagalogs). As you can recall from the Datu arrival stories, the Hiligaynons who went upward landed in Batangas province near the municipality of Taal. When they landed there, most of the lands north of the Pasig (and even some of the lands south of Pasig) were already populated.

Pasig River was the southernmost extent of Kapampangan people when Legazpi arrived in Manila Bay, and the royal families of Pampanga and the Kingdom of Tondo then were relatives of each other.


Tagalog = Taga-ilog = Ta ( from Taal or Ta-al) + g-alog (from Hiligaynon or H-ilig-aynon)? Maybe or maybe not.

QUOTE (datumarco @ Feb 10 2011, 09:26 AM) *
i agree with you on this one. tagalogs may actaully be composed of people from the southern kingdom of sapa/ and the northern kingdom of tondo which is kapampangan. proximity would have made intermarriage possible and the groupd maybe a mixture..


This is probably so.

We should also consider that Northern Filipinos may have been present throughout the Philippines albeit in smaller numbers the further south from Luzon.

There is also probably a Bicolano input into the Tagalog/Kapampangan regions. I don't know who the Bicolanos are actually. They could be a Northern Filipino/Visayan hybrid, or a mostly Northern Filipino group that adopted a Visayan language through language shift, or a mostly Visayan group, and specifically a Central Visayan group. Who knows? Let's toss a coin. icon_smile.gif
filipinoy
^btw hilig-ay-non in tagalog is something like : his/her hobbies/passion was then.... embarassedlaugh.gif
datumarco
QUOTE (filipinoy @ Feb 11 2011, 06:12 AM) *
^btw hilig-ay-non in tagalog is something like : his/her hobbies/passion was then.... embarassedlaugh.gif

the common root word would be ilod and ilig.
taga ilog means from the river, "non" in hiligaynon is added to the name of the place to describe people coming from a specific region the same as you sa surigao - and surigaonon or sugbu and sugbuanon. both description would apply to a river/estuarine based population.

"hilig" would mean hobby in both hiligaynon and tagalog. the word tagalog is not derived from "taal" its from the ilog root word.. hehe

so then tagalog is classified as visayan? or a mixture? I've lived in cainta and traveled to parts of southern manila and their intonation sounds close to ilonggo. go north however and poof, it sounds different.

now supposing that the northern manila - or the ancient kingdoms of tondo and manila were ethnically different from the people south of the pasig river - the ancient kingdom of sapa or maysapa/ probably a derivation of "sa may sapa"

how can we then apply this hypothesis in interpreting philippine history?

im always wondering why the visayans - namely the hiligayons, im referring to the whole ethnic group i.e. karay.a akeanon and ilonggo. helped the spanish conquer cebu and outlying areas. I've never heard of hiligaynon resistane to spanish rule until the eighteenth century. also i do not understand while manila was unable to get help from the southern manila region when geographically theyre near to each other. Manila actually chose to get help from pampanga and brunei.


a two state approach would be a good explanation. and what i mean by "two states" is that at the time of the spanish arrival -there were two socio politico alliances existing in the philippines.

-the first, kingdoms/sultanates under the influence of brunei. royalties would be related to brunei, islamized, goevernment is usually a monarchy. I'd be calling these states as Imperial loyalists. or imperials. theses kingdoms would be manila - direct bruneian colony, tondo - bruneian satellite by virtue of conquest by brunei and by intermarriage of the royal family. sulu and the sultanates of maguindanao and maranao - bruneian allies by virtue of marriage within the rulling families. I can also say mactan, im not sure about the rest of cebu, since lapu lapu was a moslem convert.

- the second, kingdoms or confederation not under or directly opposed to imperial rule/brunei. most of these kingdoms would be strong thallosocracies competing against brunei. these kingdoms would be the confederation of madyaas and sapa, with madyaas being the kingdom in panay and sapa the kingdom south of the pasig river. These two kingdoms have the same political structure being confederations and all and may have been ethnically and culturally one people. that is if we assume the tagalogs were visayan colonies in taal. these two kingdoms were founded by ten rebel datus and composed of exiles. they would have left by the twefth century before the bisaya of borneo became muslim. they would most probably be hindu or budhist which would have shown in the "mandala" like political structure. these people would have no love of brunei and would be against the monarchy. The bisaya would have had their own trade interest to protect, with control of trade in wetern and eastern visayas and with control of the sea lanes until. bisaya control would be from panay up to southern manila, sapa and madyaas can be described as one huge thallosocratice kingdom - a kingdom based on trade and control of the sea. the second kingdom opposed to brunei would be the rajahnate of butuan. butuan at that time was a hinduized kingdom which controled trade from mindanao as far as some parts of indonesia. This kingdom sent tributary missions to china and was a trade competitor of brunei, the extent of butans power would have included bohol and nearby areas. the third would be cebu - main island excluding mactan. ancient cebu under zulu was at odds with mactan, cebu was also a trading power which might have streched from cebu and down south into mindanao ares not contolled by butuan or sulu.

using the two states approcah - we then assign motives for the ancient kingdoms at the time of spanish arrival, we will also take a look at the kingdoms which accepted or made friends with the spanish and those that didnt.

those who accepted the spanish were rajah siago and sri katuna of butuan and bohol. these guys did the blood compact. also had the first mass there. panay - where the conversion of the rulers in aklan gave way to the conversion of the whole island. The spanish were also advised by the cebu leaders to go to panay to find food, help and allies. cebu - converted to catholicism, asked the spanish under magellan to scare lapu lapu into submission. lapu laou was teritorrially under the sway of cebu, using the mandala philosophy - mactan should have looked up to cebu. but since lapu lapu was muslim - the traditional source of cebu's hold on mactan - i.i the mandala philosophy would have little political influence. being a thallosocracy - cebu would have weak military power on land and a war with mactan would be costly to trade. a third party such as the spaniards being used as mercenaries would allow cebu to exert military pressure over mactan without risking a costly retaliation on trade by mactan.

thses allied kingdom would have seen the spaniards a another ally to used to conquer the might of brunei.

these kingdoms would be allied because of trade interests and religion - most would be hindu budhist and would have found christianity an appealing alternative to brunei's islam.

now i will go to class. i'll continue the discusiion tommorrow. please research on "manadala" to get a better feel of how these kingdoms would have been kept stable.
Prau123
QUOTE (filipinoy @ Feb 11 2011, 07:12 AM) *
^btw hilig-ay-non in tagalog is something like : his/her hobbies/passion was then.... embarassedlaugh.gif


Visayans do spend a lot of time enjoying themselves. We're not lazy, but we like to work hard on the things that we enjoy.


QUOTE (datumarco @ Feb 11 2011, 08:55 PM) *
the common root word would be ilod and ilig.
taga ilog means from the river, "non" in hiligaynon is added to the name of the place to describe people coming from a specific region the same as you sa surigao - and surigaonon or sugbu and sugbuanon. both description would apply to a river/estuarine based population.

"hilig" would mean hobby in both hiligaynon and tagalog. the word tagalog is not derived from "taal" its from the ilog root word.. hehe

so then tagalog is classified as visayan? or a mixture? I've lived in cainta and traveled to parts of southern manila and their intonation sounds close to ilonggo. go north however and poof, it sounds different.

now supposing that the northern manila - or the ancient kingdoms of tondo and manila were ethnically different from the people south of the pasig river - the ancient kingdom of sapa or maysapa/ probably a derivation of "sa may sapa"

how can we then apply this hypothesis in interpreting philippine history?

im always wondering why the visayans - namely the hiligayons, im referring to the whole ethnic group i.e. karay.a akeanon and ilonggo. helped the spanish conquer cebu and outlying areas. I've never heard of hiligaynon resistane to spanish rule until the eighteenth century. also i do not understand while manila was unable to get help from the southern manila region when geographically theyre near to each other. Manila actually chose to get help from pampanga and brunei.


a two state approach would be a good explanation. and what i mean by "two states" is that at the time of the spanish arrival -there were two socio politico alliances existing in the philippines.

-the first, kingdoms/sultanates under the influence of brunei. royalties would be related to brunei, islamized, goevernment is usually a monarchy. I'd be calling these states as Imperial loyalists. or imperials. theses kingdoms would be manila - direct bruneian colony, tondo - bruneian satellite by virtue of conquest by brunei and by intermarriage of the royal family. sulu and the sultanates of maguindanao and maranao - bruneian allies by virtue of marriage within the rulling families. I can also say mactan, im not sure about the rest of cebu, since lapu lapu was a moslem convert.

- the second, kingdoms or confederation not under or directly opposed to imperial rule/brunei. most of these kingdoms would be strong thallosocracies competing against brunei. these kingdoms would be the confederation of madyaas and sapa, with madyaas being the kingdom in panay and sapa the kingdom south of the pasig river. These two kingdoms have the same political structure being confederations and all and may have been ethnically and culturally one people. that is if we assume the tagalogs were visayan colonies in taal. these two kingdoms were founded by ten rebel datus and composed of exiles. they would have left by the twefth century before the bisaya of borneo became muslim. they would most probably be hindu or budhist which would have shown in the "mandala" like political structure. these people would have no love of brunei and would be against the monarchy. The bisaya would have had their own trade interest to protect, with control of trade in wetern and eastern visayas and with control of the sea lanes until. bisaya control would be from panay up to southern manila, sapa and madyaas can be described as one huge thallosocratice kingdom - a kingdom based on trade and control of the sea. the second kingdom opposed to brunei would be the rajahnate of butuan. butuan at that time was a hinduized kingdom which controled trade from mindanao as far as some parts of indonesia. This kingdom sent tributary missions to china and was a trade competitor of brunei, the extent of butans power would have included bohol and nearby areas. the third would be cebu - main island excluding mactan. ancient cebu under zulu was at odds with mactan, cebu was also a trading power which might have streched from cebu and down south into mindanao ares not contolled by butuan or sulu.

using the two states approcah - we then assign motives for the ancient kingdoms at the time of spanish arrival, we will also take a look at the kingdoms which accepted or made friends with the spanish and those that didnt.

those who accepted the spanish were rajah siago and sri katuna of butuan and bohol. these guys did the blood compact. also had the first mass there. panay - where the conversion of the rulers in aklan gave way to the conversion of the whole island. The spanish were also advised by the cebu leaders to go to panay to find food, help and allies. cebu - converted to catholicism, asked the spanish under magellan to scare lapu lapu into submission. lapu laou was teritorrially under the sway of cebu, using the mandala philosophy - mactan should have looked up to cebu. but since lapu lapu was muslim - the traditional source of cebu's hold on mactan - i.i the mandala philosophy would have little political influence. being a thallosocracy - cebu would have weak military power on land and a war with mactan would be costly to trade. a third party such as the spaniards being used as mercenaries would allow cebu to exert military pressure over mactan without risking a costly retaliation on trade by mactan.

thses allied kingdom would have seen the spaniards a another ally to used to conquer the might of brunei.

these kingdoms would be allied because of trade interests and religion - most would be hindu budhist and would have found christianity an appealing alternative to brunei's islam.

now i will go to class. i'll continue the discusiion tommorrow. please research on "manadala" to get a better feel of how these kingdoms would have been kept stable.


I'm proud to descend from confederate rebels, maybe that's why we Visayans have attitude. We could have been Hindu, but I don't see a lot of Hindu elements in Panay, at least no more than any other areas of the Philippines. The Spanish could have wiped it out, since much of the Visayas was Hispanicized. The level of Hinduism could have been moderate in the first place, and could have been a Filipino version which included several native practices.

I'm just recently finding out that the spread of the Visayan languages within the Visayas is far more complicated than I thought. As mentioned in the other thread "Aklanons and Kinaray-a may be Pre-Visayan" http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=250415, (which I re-post below) Kiniray-a or Proto-Kinaray-a is the ancestor of Hiligaynon and all the other Central Visayan languages, and if you believe in the 10 Datu Legend where Datu Puti moves from Panay to Taal, Batangas, then Kiniray-a or Proto-Kinaray-a is the ancestor of Tagalog. Kinaray-a or Proto-Kinaray-a may be the ancestor or Bicolano as well. But the development of all the Visayan languages probably required each of them influencing one another. Cebuano did influence Romblomanon, and also Onhan and Asi.

From Jason William Lobel's article "AN INTRODUCTION TO THE LANGUAGES OF ROMBLON PROVINCE": http://sanrokan.com/newsanrokan/archives/j...ature_lobel.htm

QUOTE
Romblomanon has the same phonemic inventory as Asi, which is the general Central Philippine phonemic inventory. It is classified as a central Bisayan language, and possibly developed as a type of creole (4) when speakers of the various Central Bisayan languages like Hiligaynon, Capiznon, and Masbatenyo intermingled with Cebuanos and Bikolanos who immigrated to Romblon and Sibuyan Islands.


QUOTE
That Asi would have borrowed from Tagalog or a Panayan-Bisayan language is predictable since the entire Romblon province was formerly part of the province of Capiz on the island of Panay in the Western Visayas region, and although now an independent province, is now part of the Southern Tagalog region. Likewise, with Tagalog being the national language of the Philippines, its widespread usage explains why Asi would have been influenced by it, especially as it is the language of wider communication between Tablas's speakers of Asi, Onhan, Romblomanon, and Tagalog


This tells you that the Visayan languages, Tagalog, and Bicolano were influencing one another either through migration or trade, but it is likely that the Visayan languages influenced each other the most hence why they are classified as Visayan whereas Tagalog and Bicolano are not (although related to Visayan). These influences are complicated to trace taking several complicated routes with varying degrees of influence.

Here is a copy of the post I made regarding Tagalog deriving from Kinaray-a:

QUOTE
That actually makes sense. Now I understand how the languages of Panay came to be today. Akeanon was the court language situated in Aklan, but because of its court status its spread was limited to Aklan. Whereas Kinaray-a was the language of everyone else in Panay outside of Aklan. This explains why Kinaray-a spread to the Cuyo islands, Semirara islands, Caluya islands, Tablas island in Romblon province, southern Mindoro, and Guimaras. Seafaring tradesmen, fishermen, and essentially people of all types especially commoners spread Kinaray-a which eventually evolved to form several child languages such as Cuyonon, Onhan, Caluyonon, and Ratagnon. Whereas Akeanon went nowhere except in Aklan, and partially into Capiz, with only a few child dialects being developed, but basically no child languages.

Hinilawod was developed from Kinaray-a in the parian district of Iloilo, and became today's Hiligaynon. It was developed because of the seafaring trade that came through Iloilo and perhaps influence by some of the Chinese people, and influenced and favored by the Spanish since it was the "trade language", the language of Iloilo's trade district, and it was the language that the Spanish had learned. The Kinaray-a speakers did not want to be too close to the Spanish perhaps, but vice versa, the Spanish did not probably want to be too close to the natives as well, and one way to do that is to speak a language that only an exclusive group can communicate in. So Hiligaynon essentially was developed and spread during Spanish colonial times, and is derived from Kinaray-a. Therefore, the Central Visayan languages such as Capiznon, Romblomanon, Masbatenyo, Waray-Waray, Porohanon, the Bisakol languages and perhaps even Bicolano to a certain extent all derive from Kinaray-a!!! This is also explains why the Eastern Visayas has very few linguistic diversity; Waray-Waray is spoken throughout Samar, and northeastern Leyte. Masbatenyo is spoken throughout Masbate, Ticao island, and the southern half of Burias island. The Bisakol languages cover southern Bicol. The Eastern Visayas only recently acquired its languages today all of which are derived from Kinaray-a.

Conclusion: The Central Visayan languages derive from the Western Visayan languages especially Kinaray-a.

The Ten Datu Legend states that Datu Puti moves on from Panay to found the Tagalogs in Taal, Batangas. The Tagalogs likely spoke Kinaray-a. But Tagalog is not classified as a Western Visayan language, nor is it classified as a Central Visayan language. Tagalog is classifed as Central Philippine, but not a Visayan language. Could it be that Kinaray-a in Batangas was influenced by the native languages that were already there, and perhaps a Northern Philippine language? Or was the Kinaray-a in the past different than the one today; that is, was Kinaray-a even a modern Visayan language? Could the language of the 10 Datus have been a proto-Visayan language (Proto-Kinaray-a), and this would explain why Tagalog, although related to the Visayan languages, may not contain some of the features found in Visayan languages. The same may be true for Bicolano. If you notice Tagalog has no child languages, but only child dialects (4 of them to be exact). Bicolano has no child languages, but has up to 12 child dialects. Therefore, Tagalog and Bicolano are recent languages compared to the ones that they derive from which are the proper Visayan languages, and in particular Kinaray-a or Proto-Kinaray-a. The Visayan languages likely influenced one another since there was much maritime trade amongst them, and this likely developed many of the features common among Visayan languages.

Conclusion: Tagalog ultimately is derived from Kinaray-a or Proto-Kinaray-a, and hence Tagalog's ancient connection with the Visayan languages.



I'm not saying I'm correct here. This is all I know, so feel free to comment or criticize.
filipinoy
heres 162 Philippine languages



(interesting between samar & bottom tip of the bikol peninsula... theres a bajao language)

since theres already a bridge connecting leyte & samar...
i think there should be a bridge connecting luzon & samar using the 2 small islands between them...
also between leyte & mindanao too (although a little farther)


"bikol" languages are i think considered separate languages not dialects, like with "bisaya"




prau can you link the tagalog/sumatra wiki thing

btw the aeta/ayta/agta/ati/others...took the languages of the new austronesian settler & makes their own version of it, so do you count that as a child language...
Prau123
QUOTE (filipinoy @ Feb 13 2011, 04:36 PM) *
heres 162 Philippine languages



(interesting between samar & bottom tip of the bikol peninsula... theres a bajao language)

since theres already a bridge connecting leyte & samar...
i think there should be a bridge connecting luzon & samar using the 2 small islands between them...
also between leyte & mindanao too (although a little farther)


"bikol" languages are i think considered separate languages not dialects, like with "bisaya"




prau can you link the tagalog/sumatra wiki thing

btw the aeta/ayta/agta/ati/others...took the languages of the new austronesian settler & makes their own version of it, so do you count that as a child language...


It was that Wikipedia article that we all criticized that stated that Tagalogs and Kapampangas were originally one tribed that originated from Sumatra. Upon arriving on the Pasig river in Luzon, they eventually branched out into two tribes, the Tagalogs and the Kapampangans. I don't believe in this theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Basilan

QUOTE
Two main branches of this Malay invasion entered the Philippine Archipelago via two separate routes. One, believed to have originated from Sumatra and the Malay Peninsula, passed via the northern coast of Borneo, and through Palawan and eventually settled by the banks of the river Pasig in Luzon. These settlers soon branched into two tribes, the first became known as the "people of the river" (or 'taga-ilog'/ Tagalog), which developed a more sedentary, agricultural society built on the fertile plains fed by the Pasig and around the area of Laguna Lake; while the second hugged the shores of Manila Bay and therefore called the "people of the coast" ('ka-pampang-an'/ Pampanga), primarily engaged in fishing. Kapampangans eventually moved northwards into the interior of Luzon, and, inter-marrying with indigenous 'highlanders' and visiting Chinese traders, eventually produced the Iloko tribe. Tagalogs on the other hand, moved further into the southeastern peninsula of Luzon, meeting up with the indigenous communities there, as well as the "sea peoples of Visayas and Mindanao". This produced the Bikol tribe.


Since I did mention Ati and Suludnon (Igbok) as languages of Panay, I guess it's only fair that the languages of the Agtas and Aetas of Bicol should be counted as child languages also. I thought Bicolano was still considered one language but with several dialects. I know that many of them are close to becoming full languages on their own. Lobel mentions that there are 4 main branches of the 12 dialects. But if they are true languages, then I may have to throw my theory that Kinaray-a beget the Central Visayan languages out the window.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikol_languages
QUOTE
While McFarland (1974) splits Bikol into 11 dialects, Lobel (2000) splits Bikol into 12 different dialects (including Partido Bikol, which McFarland (1974) does not differentiate) and 4 main branches.[2]


I wanted to mention the Inabaknon language of Capul island in Eastern Visayas, but it's not a Visayan language, and it does relate to to the diversification of the Visayan languages, but you're right it is nonetheless a language in Eastern Visayas. The same goes with Eskaya which is thought to be a coded language based upon Cebuano.

My intuition tells me that the languages spread from Panay with the Kinaray-a (or Proto-Kinaray-a) language, and perhaps a back-migration language influence from Bicol which may have include an indigenous Bicolano language(s) that may have been Northern Philippine or Visayan-related, influences from Cebu and Surigao del Norte. There were probably other influences from other languages too. Romblomanon seems to have words not found in any other language according to Lobel's article.

I guess what you were driving at with the land bridges between Leyte and Samar, Luzon and Samar, and Leyte and northeastern Mindanao (Surigao del Norte) is that these were probably where the Visayan or Proto-Visayan languages were developed. It could have developed there, and I happen to believe that the Visayan or Proto-Visayan languages did not originate in Panay or Western Visayas, but somewhere else, and the only likely sources are the Butuan kingdom, Cebu, the Sulu archipelago, and Borneo. Let's discount the Aeta and Agta languages. The Aeta and Agta did not originally speak a Visayan or Proto-Visayan languages. They adopted them, and so naturally they would speak the Visayan or Proto-Visayan languages in their own way perhaps combining it with their original extinct language, and creating a Visayan child language. This type of diversification won't probably tell us how old the Visayan language is. But if we go to areas where there are only Visayan people, then even their languages would diversify into child languages, but over a long period of time. Those areas that diversified the most would then have to be the areas where Visayan was spoken the earliest. This is why I think the Western Visayan languages such as Kinaray-a and Akeanon beget the Central Visayan languages such as Hiligaynon, Masbatenyo, the Bisakol languages, and Waray-Waray which is spoken almost uncontestably on the large island of Samar. Samar has only one other language on it, and it is likely spoken by an Aeta/Agta group. But I do understand that even this process can be tampered with, since a child language can be quickly developed due to an area developing quickly as a commercial center and developing a trade language or a metropolitian language. For example, New Yorkans in New York city speak differently as compared to just outside of New York. This may lead one to falsely conclude that an area was the originator of the languages.

Butuan kingdom seems to be the oldest along with Cebu and the Tausug of the Sulu archipelago. And probably from there it spread out in different directions. There was probably a lot of mixing between the languages due to migration, trade, and etc. But Panay does seem to have an ancient identity. There could have been a back-flow migration of languages onto the different parts of the Visayas from Panay causing a language shift. Samar is too big to basically just have one language. That's what bothers me. They must have received a Visayan or Proto-Visayan language which became Waray-Waray in recent times only partly through migration (genetic input), and partly through language shift as I would imagine there would have been people living in Samar already. If Waray-Waray had been there for a long time, then it would have diversified into child languages or at least child dialects, and I am not aware of any child dialects in Samar. The same thing with Cebu, Bohol, and southern Leyte. We know from recent times, that Cebuano flowed into Mindanao causing a large scale language shift. This process seems to repeat itself over and over again in our history, and we have a modern example of it. Did Davao speak Cebuano before 1900? Didn't they speak Davawenyo or some Mansakan language? The language that may have spread from Panay may have been nothing more than a language shift, and only a minor genetic input depending upon the area. Or there was no language spread or genetic spread from Panay altogether. But my intuition tells me that there was some migration that brought the Western Visayan languages and its people to different parts of the northern Visayas and southern Luzon. But I could be wrong. I think it's actually several influences from several different groups that created the various languages of the Visayas and southern Luzon each influencing each other in some way. Romblamanon is an example of that, and so is Onhan and Asi. These languages were influenced by Kinaray-a/Akeanon and also by Cebuano, Bicolano, and a modern influence from Tagalog. And not just linguistic influence, but genetic influence.
datumarco
QUOTE (Prau123 @ Feb 13 2011, 05:24 PM) *
It was that Wikipedia article that we all criticized that stated that Tagalogs and Kapampangas were originally one tribed that originated from Sumatra. Upon arriving on the Pasig river in Luzon, they eventually branched out into two tribes, the Tagalogs and the Kapampangans. I don't believe in this theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Basilan



Since I did mention Ati and Suludnon (Igbok) as languages of Panay, I guess it's only fair that the languages of the Agtas and Aetas of Bicol should be counted as child languages also. I thought Bicolano was still considered one language but with several dialects. I know that many of them are close to becoming full languages on their own. Lobel mentions that there are 4 main branches of the 12 dialects. But if they are true languages, then I may have to throw my theory that Kinaray-a beget the Central Visayan languages out the window.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikol_languages


I wanted to mention the Inabaknon language of Capul island in Eastern Visayas, but it's not a Visayan language, and it does relate to to the diversification of the Visayan languages, but you're right it is nonetheless a language in Eastern Visayas. The same goes with Eskaya which is thought to be a coded language based upon Cebuano.

My intuition tells me that the languages spread from Panay with the Kinaray-a (or Proto-Kinaray-a) language, and perhaps a back-migration language influence from Bicol which may have include an indigenous Bicolano language(s) that may have been Northern Philippine or Visayan-related, influences from Cebu and Surigao del Norte. There were probably other influences from other languages too. Romblomanon seems to have words not found in any other language according to Lobel's article.

I guess what you were driving at with the land bridges between Leyte and Samar, Luzon and Samar, and Leyte and northeastern Mindanao (Surigao del Norte) is that these were probably where the Visayan or Proto-Visayan languages were developed. It could have developed there, and I happen to believe that the Visayan or Proto-Visayan languages did not originate in Panay or Western Visayas, but somewhere else, and the only likely sources are the Butuan kingdom, Cebu, the Sulu archipelago, and Borneo. Let's discount the Aeta and Agta languages. The Aeta and Agta did not originally speak a Visayan or Proto-Visayan languages. They adopted them, and so naturally they would speak the Visayan or Proto-Visayan languages in their own way perhaps combining it with their original extinct language, and creating a Visayan child language. This type of diversification won't probably tell us how old the Visayan language is. But if we go to areas where there are only Visayan people, then even their languages would diversify into child languages, but over a long period of time. Those areas that diversified the most would then have to be the areas where Visayan was spoken the earliest. This is why I think the Western Visayan languages such as Kinaray-a and Akeanon beget the Central Visayan languages such as Hiligaynon, Masbatenyo, the Bisakol languages, and Waray-Waray which is spoken almost uncontestably on the large island of Samar. Samar has only one other language on it, and it is likely spoken by an Aeta/Agta group. But I do understand that even this process can be tampered with, since a child language can be quickly developed due to an area developing quickly as a commercial center and developing a trade language or a metropolitian language. For example, New Yorkans in New York city speak differently as compared to just outside of New York. This may lead one to falsely conclude that an area was the originator of the languages.

Butuan kingdom seems to be the oldest along with Cebu and the Tausug of the Sulu archipelago. And probably from there it spread out in different directions. There was probably a lot of mixing between the languages due to migration, trade, and etc. But Panay does seem to have an ancient identity. There could have been a back-flow migration of languages onto the different parts of the Visayas from Panay causing a language shift. Samar is too big to basically just have one language. That's what bothers me. They must have received a Visayan or Proto-Visayan language which became Waray-Waray in recent times only partly through migration (genetic input), and partly through language shift as I would imagine there would have been people living in Samar already. If Waray-Waray had been there for a long time, then it would have diversified into child languages or at least child dialects, and I am not aware of any child dialects in Samar. The same thing with Cebu, Bohol, and southern Leyte. We know from recent times, that Cebuano flowed into Mindanao causing a large scale language shift. This process seems to repeat itself over and over again in our history, and we have a modern example of it. Did Davao speak Cebuano before 1900? Didn't they speak Davawenyo or some Mansakan language? The language that may have spread from Panay may have been nothing more than a language shift, and only a minor genetic input depending upon the area. Or there was no language spread or genetic spread from Panay altogether. But my intuition tells me that there was some migration that brought the Western Visayan languages and its people to different parts of the northern Visayas and southern Luzon. But I could be wrong. I think it's actually several influences from several different groups that created the various languages of the Visayas and southern Luzon each influencing each other in some way. Romblamanon is an example of that, and so is Onhan and Asi. These languages were influenced by Kinaray-a/Akeanon and also by Cebuano, Bicolano, and a modern influence from Tagalog. And not just linguistic influence, but genetic influence.



I'm hazarding a guess here but I believe we should include brunei and bruneian history in discussing historical issue within the philippines. Brunei might be a separate country but it did have a lot of influence on prehispanic philippines. Three of the largest ethnic groups in the country traces their roots and origins from brunei. The sulu, the bisaya and the tagalog with the tagalog being descended from visayan sapa and bruneian tondo-maynila/selurong.

if we follow visayan/hiligaynon folk history - the ten datus and the settlers of panay were from borneo, there's even a tribe there named bisaya, a tribe that happens to be the tribe where the royal family of brunei came from... if that's the case then kiniray.a and all of its child languages would have been bornean imports.

the exile of the ten datus was a planned exodus - the borneans knew where to go and panay was already populated by indegenous tribes and by the ati. the borneans could have been trading with the natives before they decided to settle there in exile. so we cannot discount that fact that kiniray.a could have been a mix of the bornean languages and the local languages with the bornean being the dominant. once firmly established in panay - the language would have spread outward, hinilawod going outwards to areas where trade is profitable - these would tend to be large islands with large populations, whereas kiniray.a spread would be limited to nearby areas. this matches perfectly with the linguistic map posted previously where the central visayan languages spread by hinilawod/trading languages went to areas with high population densities, whereas the kiniray.a and akeaonons influence was limited.

on the other hand the inlfuence couldnt be one way. As hinilawod spreads outward it will influence the local language in areas where the bisaya trading influence is strongest but the local languages in these areas would also exert an influence on hinilawod. this phenomena would tend to have a homogenizing effect on languages in the region. ancient waray would be influenced by hinilawod, hinilawod would be influenced by waray, hinilawod with waray influence would then influence other islands such as ceb and vice versa. hinilawod being the trading language of the bisaya would then filter up to the different social caste of ancient bisaya first filtering hiniray.a then least into akeanon. kiniray.a would then change depending on the influence of hinilawod. even in panay - the inland towns have distinct karay.a accents compared to coastal trading towns which use karay.a words but with hinilawod accents. one can travel within panay and encounter as much as twenty or more dialects of karay.a or hiligaynon.. ilonggos can actually tell where your from based on your accent. even neighboring towns use different accents and different words. e.x. central iloilo karay.a inlcuding towns like janiuay and lambunao use the word "dya" with long "yaaah" sound -- for here, in the southern iloilo its "ja" with short "a" sound - also means here. northern antique karay.a has a singsong/poetic cadence with exclamations of "hai" at the end of sentences. north central antique can be distinguised by their us of "it" south central antique and central iloilo both use "ti" instead of "it"..

its hard to also assign a "mother" or ancestral tongue to these languages since the local languages in the philippines would have also been austronesian and thus sister languages of karay.a.. karay.a and its trading language hiligaynon/hinilawod would have been major influences and might have serves as a standardizing medium for the different local languages but its not the mother tongue...

much like bahasa - karay.a and hinilawod would have serve as a lingua franca



filipinoy
^brunei & borneo is actually the same word
filipinoy
prau.. samar is the typhoon capital of the philippines, & one of the rainiest part of the PI.. sometimes typhoon=failed crops

some islands may have different languages, because its in the middle of major trade/migration routes or were able not able to hold on the entire island..thus allowing other groups to settle

im not sure if eskaya should be considered more like, esparanto or something

if you ask bikolanos... like my old bikolano neighbor from legazpi city he cant really understand those bikolanos from iriga city, & the map above doesn't list dialects... so according to the map the entire "bicol region" speaks 16-17 different languages..

groups i think that expanded their covered areas after the 1600s.. tagalog, ilocano & cebuano.. like how the spaniards put ilocanos on batanes & gov't sponsored resettlement of ilocanos to mindanao... then later the ilocano colony of hawaii lol

those ones the map labeled as Philippine-other & bilic are really old groups


im also trying to find out which languages uses mga/maga/manga, languages like bahasa indo dont have a word like this, they usually have to repeat the word


also im not sure if tagalogs have always called themselves taga ilog, since the heart land is in taal not the pasig river... & the "Sinauna Tagalog" language; means: ancient/first taga-ilog, spoken in Rizal is actually a kapampangan language
Prau123
QUOTE (datumarco @ Feb 13 2011, 08:30 PM) *
I'm hazarding a guess here but I believe we should include brunei and bruneian history in discussing historical issue within the philippines. Brunei might be a separate country but it did have a lot of influence on prehispanic philippines. Three of the largest ethnic groups in the country traces their roots and origins from brunei. The sulu, the bisaya and the tagalog with the tagalog being descended from visayan sapa and bruneian tondo-maynila/selurong.

if we follow visayan/hiligaynon folk history - the ten datus and the settlers of panay were from borneo, there's even a tribe there named bisaya, a tribe that happens to be the tribe where the royal family of brunei came from... if that's the case then kiniray.a and all of its child languages would have been bornean imports.

the exile of the ten datus was a planned exodus - the borneans knew where to go and panay was already populated by indegenous tribes and by the ati. the borneans could have been trading with the natives before they decided to settle there in exile. so we cannot discount that fact that kiniray.a could have been a mix of the bornean languages and the local languages with the bornean being the dominant. once firmly established in panay - the language would have spread outward, hinilawod going outwards to areas where trade is profitable - these would tend to be large islands with large populations, whereas kiniray.a spread would be limited to nearby areas. this matches perfectly with the linguistic map posted previously where the central visayan languages spread by hinilawod/trading languages went to areas with high population densities, whereas the kiniray.a and akeaonons influence was limited.

on the other hand the inlfuence couldnt be one way. As hinilawod spreads outward it will influence the local language in areas where the bisaya trading influence is strongest but the local languages in these areas would also exert an influence on hinilawod. this phenomena would tend to have a homogenizing effect on languages in the region. ancient waray would be influenced by hinilawod, hinilawod would be influenced by waray, hinilawod with waray influence would then influence other islands such as ceb and vice versa. hinilawod being the trading language of the bisaya would then filter up to the different social caste of ancient bisaya first filtering hiniray.a then least into akeanon. kiniray.a would then change depending on the influence of hinilawod. even in panay - the inland towns have distinct karay.a accents compared to coastal trading towns which use karay.a words but with hinilawod accents. one can travel within panay and encounter as much as twenty or more dialects of karay.a or hiligaynon.. ilonggos can actually tell where your from based on your accent. even neighboring towns use different accents and different words. e.x. central iloilo karay.a inlcuding towns like janiuay and lambunao use the word "dya" with long "yaaah" sound -- for here, in the southern iloilo its "ja" with short "a" sound - also means here. northern antique karay.a has a singsong/poetic cadence with exclamations of "hai" at the end of sentences. north central antique can be distinguised by their us of "it" south central antique and central iloilo both use "ti" instead of "it"..

its hard to also assign a "mother" or ancestral tongue to these languages since the local languages in the philippines would have also been austronesian and thus sister languages of karay.a.. karay.a and its trading language hiligaynon/hinilawod would have been major influences and might have serves as a standardizing medium for the different local languages but its not the mother tongue...

much like bahasa - karay.a and hinilawod would have serve as a lingua franca


I've been reading that some people think that Hiligaynon may have not originated from Kinaray-a.

Anyhow, let's look at the geography of northern Visayas. From Iloilo, Panay to Masbate to Bicol is a main seafaring trade route, fishing route, and migration route. The languages along this route would be influenced by one another hence developing common features; especially Masbate since it is in the middle. Since Iloilo is the major seafaring trade center for Panay, it would likely be influenced by the languages along this route more so compared to other parts of Panay, hence the probable origin and development of Hiligaynon as a Central Visayan language in Iloilo as oppose to other towns/places in Panay. Kinaray-a via Iloilo would also have the opportunity to spread and influence other languages along this route. Notice that I did not say that Hiligaynon is derived from Kinaray-a, although that is a possibility (and also the more ambitious possibility that the Central Visayan languages are mainly derived from Kinaray-a), but there is also the possibility that a Central Visayan language was instead brought to Iloilo and influenced by Kinaray-a which formed Hiligaynon. But rather than looking for a single origin or a particular direction in the development of the Central Visayan languages, we should probably view it as each place along this busy seafaring route receiving and giving an equal amount of influence upon each other in developing the Central Visayan languages. It was not one place nor a particular direction, but a rather an influence from several places along a very busy seafaring route over a long period of time. Specifically, Hiligaynon, Capiznon, Masbatenyo, and Porohanon were developed along these busy seafaring routes and formed the Peripheral Central Visayan languages. They influenced each other the most which reinforced a particular linguistic identity. Romblon, and the Eastern Visayan islands such as Leyte and Samar which are nearby but just outside of this busy seafaring route would have recieved influence, but to a lesser extent, and were allowed to evolve in relative isolation to their specific environmental niche, and also perhaps retain some elements of their indigenous languages. Their languages, Romblomanon and Waray-Waray, are also classified as Central Visayan languages, but not Peripheral Central Visayan languages.

At the end of the day, it will take more research and rigorous linguistic analysis to truly solve this problem.



QUOTE (filipinoy @ Feb 13 2011, 09:27 PM) *
prau.. samar is the typhoon capital of the philippines, & one of the rainiest part of the PI.. sometimes typhoon=failed crops

some islands may have different languages, because its in the middle of major trade/migration routes or were able not able to hold on the entire island..thus allowing other groups to settle

im not sure if eskaya should be considered more like, esparanto or something

if you ask bikolanos... like my old bikolano neighbor from legazpi city he cant really understand those bikolanos from iriga city, & the map above doesn't list dialects... so according to the map the entire "bicol region" speaks 16-17 different languages..

groups i think that expanded their covered areas after the 1600s.. tagalog, ilocano & cebuano.. like how the spaniards put ilocanos on batanes & gov't sponsored resettlement of ilocanos to mindanao... then later the ilocano colony of hawaii lol

those ones the map labeled as Philippine-other & bilic are really old groups


im also trying to find out which languages uses mga/maga/manga, languages like bahasa indo dont have a word like this, they usually have to repeat the word


also im not sure if tagalogs have always called themselves taga ilog, since the heart land is in taal not the pasig river... & the "Sinauna Tagalog" language; means: ancient/first taga-ilog, spoken in Rizal is actually a kapampangan language


Samar may have been stricken by typhoons and floods causing crop failure which would have kept their populations low, and that Waray-Waray may have been a recent introduction to Samar (from Tacloban, Leyte perhaps?) or a recent expansion from one corner of Samar coinciding with a population expansion and migration which would have totally overwhelmed the other languages in Samar; if you add institutionalized education standardizing Waray-Wary throughout Samar, then that might explain why Waray-Wary is the only language spoken throughout Samar with the exception of an Aeta/Agta language spoken by a few.

Eskaya is an interesting language, and it may be a truly unique language, and not just an auxiliary language of Boholano.

I'll take your word for it that the Bikolano group is actually several languages and not just dialects.

I agree Tagalog, Ilokano, and Cebuano expanded the most since the 1600s. Hiligaynon is probably in 4th. place since they did expand greatly into Negros Occidental, and into Mindanao. I believe that Hiligaynon is spoken as a first language in South Cotabato province, and probably also in Sultan Kudarat province. It is also spread in smaller pockets in other parts of Mindanao and Palawan. Waray-Waray may actually be a modern expansion into Samar and northeastern Leyte given its lack of diversity. Another language, Cuyonon, spread from a very small island group onto norther Palawan.

Yeah those Bilic languages are really old. It's great that they have survived to this day.

The Tagalogs may have had another name for themselves, but as you suggested, when they arrived onto the Pasig River, they adopted the name "Tagailog" from a Kapampangan language named Sinauna Tagalog.

Both Kinaray-a and Akeanon use "mga":

Kinaraya http://adsantos.tripod.com/index_3.html

QUOTE
Mga Panahon Seasons


Tapos run ang panahon The season for flying kites
Kang pagtugpo kang mga burador. Has ended.
Ang mga nabilin daw mga sikag We can see kites like skeletons
Sa alambre kang kuryente. Hanging from electric lines.

Kato nga maalwan pa ang hangin There was a time when the wind
Sari-sari ang dagway kag duag Was more generous.
Kang mga burador - daw mga isda Kites were of all forms & colors,
Nagasibad sa dagat kang kahawaan. Like fishes in heaven's blue ocean.

Samtang ang mga bata While the children
Sa langit nagatangra, Look up the sky,
Hugut ang pagpangyaput Holding the thin string
Sa manipis nga higot. so tight.

Raad indi mabugto, Hoping it wont break,
Ukon makasab-it. Or the kites wont crash.
Raad indi maabtan Hoping the season of rain
Kang tinguran. Never comes.

Ugaring tapos run ang panahon But the season for casting dreams
Kang pagpalupad kang mga damgo. Has ended.
Ang nabilin sikag lamang What's left are fishbones
Sa tubug kang handumanan. Aslant in memory's throat.




Akeanon http://geocities.ws/aklanonliterature/bueabod.html

QUOTE
KUNTA

by Monalisa Tabernilla

Naima ako sa mga patag

nga ginharuan ku adlaw

ag sa mga bukid

nga ginahakos it panganod.



Banta ko,

owa sanda gikunyaga

bisan gapaeanupsop ro kaeamig

ku Disyembre.



Kon mahimo ko kunta

nga magpalipod

sa imong maeabaab ng dughan

Makig-ambit sa ing kainit

ag magpagapus

sa 'ing mga butkon


QUOTE
ARWENA TAMAYO

HAEAD KAY ARWENA



Gindaehan ta ikaw it mga bueak

Nga may kasiga ku adlaw

Ag kainit ku mga hiyom-hiyom

Agud taw-an it kasadya

Ro imong mga mata

Nga nagakasubo.

Mga violeta nga nagakiay-kiay

Sa huyop ku hangin

Pageaom ku mga daeanon

Nga owa maagyi!...

Ag mga rosas, singpuea ku dugo

Apang madali maeaay.

Ah, sayud ako kon paalin

Do mapisang it sanglibong parte

Ag do magbatyag it hapdi

Ku mga napirdi...
datumarco
[quote name='Prau123' date='Feb 16 2011, 04:23 AM' post='4722081']
I've been reading that some people think that Hiligaynon may have not originated from Kinaray-a.

Anyhow, let's look at the geography of northern Visayas. From Iloilo, Panay to Masbate to Bicol is a main seafaring trade route, fishing route, and migration route. The languages along this route would be influenced by one another hence developing common features; especially Masbate since it is in the middle. Since Iloilo is the major seafaring trade center for Panay, it would likely be influenced by the languages along this route more so compared to other parts of Panay, hence the probable origin and development of Hiligaynon as a Central Visayan language in Iloilo as oppose to other towns/places in Panay. Kinaray-a via Iloilo would also have the opportunity to spread and influence other languages along this route. Notice that I did not say that Hiligaynon is derived from Kinaray-a, although that is a possibility (and also the more ambitious possibility that the Central Visayan languages are mainly derived from Kinaray-a), but there is also the possibility that a Central Visayan language was instead brought to Iloilo and influenced by Kinaray-a which formed Hiligaynon. But rather than looking for a single origin or a particular direction in the development of the Central Visayan languages, we should probably view it as each place along this busy seafaring route receiving and giving an equal amount of influence upon each other in developing the Central Visayan languages. It was not one place nor a particular direction, but a rather an influence from several places along a very busy seafaring route over a long period of time. Specifically, Hiligaynon, Capiznon, Masbatenyo, and Porohanon were developed along these busy seafaring routes and formed the Peripheral Central Visayan languages. They influenced each other the most which reinforced a particular linguistic identity. Romblon, and the Eastern Visayan islands such as Leyte and Samar which are nearby but just outside of this busy seafaring route would have recieved influence, but to a lesser extent, and were allowed to evolve in relative isolation to their specific environmental niche, and also perhaps retain some elements of their indigenous languages. Their languages, Romblomanon and Waray-Waray, are also classified as Central Visayan languages, but not Peripheral Central Visayan languages.

At the end of the day, it will take more research and rigorous linguistic analysis to truly solve this problem.



i think people are confused between karay.a/hiniray.a and hiligaynon and ilonggo and this confusion creates difficulties in using language as a indicator of ethnic origins. linguist tend to look into the language "as is" without taking a look at its historical development. The current nomenclature used to describe the languages are ineffective and misleading.

i propose the following classification:

visayan languages then subclassification - hiligaynon, then subdivided into two daughter languages which are hinilawod and hiniray.a,

hiniray.a split into two - karay.a and akeanon
hinilawod also split into - ilonggo and capiznon.

the language splits are reflections of societal/sociopolitical and economic development of the bisaya {i.e. people of panay}

during pre - spanish times - bisaya society would have been polarized into the iraya or upland farmers and hunters/craftsmen and the ilawod fishermen/tradesmen. {the closest modern example would be the dayaks of borneo - i.e. the sea dayaks and the land dayaks}

at that point both hinilawod and hiniray.a would have been dialects and not different languages {though some linguist would still classify these as dialects} with the differences being minor ones. with both languages being closer to karay.a

e.x. central iloilo and antique vs mid southern iloilo and mid southern antique.

central iloilo/antique { this is the mountainous area}- wara it pagkaun
mid southern {this is coastal area} - wara ti pagkaon

these are the causes for panay's language shifts

as bisaya population increased and the their economies diversified there would be stronger centralization of government and courts/ towns built strictly for governance or politics would have developed. at this point akeanon would have have become a dialect of its own {there an old folklore that says that akeanon are "pitla" or lisps because the date was harelipped or "sungi" and that to please him i.e. so no one gets beheaded for making fun of the datu - the people started emulating him, thats why akeanon seldom have the r sound - similar words to karay.a but instead of r it becomes aeag, ex karaha is kaeaha.} The r difficulty in pronunciation is also a common speech defect and no one needs to be harelipped to be a victim of one the term for the impediment is called rhotacism see

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism"

In medicine, rhotacism is the inability or difficulty in pronouncing the sound r. In English, the most common occurrence of this type is a pronunciation perceived as closer to [w]. The Looney Tunes character Elmer Fudd is notorious for his exaggerated rhotacistic speech ("Be vewwy quiet: I'm hunting wabbits"). The cartoon character Homestar Runner talks in much the same way. In popular culture, examples include Roy Hodgson (nicknamed "Woy"), Jonathan Ross, Frank Muir, Sister Wendy Beckett, Terry Jones, and the politician Roy Jenkins. Other examples are interviewer Barbara Walters and actress Kay Francis.
Rhotacism is more common among speakers of languages that have a trilled R, such as Swedish, Italian, Polish, and Spanish. This sound is usually the last one a child masters. Some people never learn to produce it; they substitute other sounds, such as the velar approximant, the uvular approximant, and the uvular trill (often called "French R"). These pronunciations are generally considered speech defects, although they used to be considered prestigious in Poland previously.
Many speech pathologists call this problem derhotacization, because the sounds lose their rhotic quality (rather than becoming more rhotic).

- ask anyone from panay and they'll tell you how trilled karay.a's are with their r's {pun intended} hehe.

now for the effects of rhotacism - it seems that like in poland - the ability to mangle the r sound became prestigious in the datu's court in aklan that it gained a wide following.
- the other effect of rhotacsim is the further split of hinilawod and akeanon from hiniray.a

akeanon and karay.a share the"ra" exclamative, but in hinilawod it became "na"
e.x wara ra pagkaun si nonoy {karay.a} -
wala na pagkaon si nonoy {hinilawod/ilonggo}
wala pa pagkain si nonoy {tagalog} -
nonoy has no food {english}

in this case rhotacism changed the r sound to l and n. rhotacism is very common in panay, i have a karay.a speaking teacher in chemistry who had one, he kept pronouncing molecular as moleculal. Everyone in class tore at their hair when he gives quizzes in chemistry especially when he asks us to convert molar measurements in molal measurement - what we heard was " convert ten molal to its molal equivalent" - makes sense.. hehe..

The most common example of cultural mass rhotacism would be the chinese and koreans and japanese {in japanese it the reverse but is also rhotacism}.

e.x is ryan bang in ABS CBN's showtime saying " i like you, youl belly belly bueatipul"

people in panay {i'll deal with negros later separately} would tell you that to convert words from karay.a to akeanon and or ilonggo or vice versa you just follow this rule.

from ilonggo/hinilawod or karay.a to akeanon - convert the l or r into aeag., akeanon and ilonggo to karay.a just convert to r, from akeanon and karay.a to ilonggo just convert it to l.
ex.

karay.a - ang kalamay ga piririkit sa karaha
hinilawod - ang kalamay gapililikit sa kalaha
akeanon - ang kaeamay ga pea,eakit sa kaeaha

another factor in the language shift is the development of slang
ex. ancient hiligaynon root word {means spoken in the uplands of panay and is not in common use in both modern karay.a and modern hinilawod}and their slang equivalents in modern usage.

- old root word - daragkul/daragkol {u and o are latin based phonetic representations and inaccurately represents the bisayan phonetic sounds - if you want to see what i mean call me and ill show you.} the word daragkul means "big"

slang derivatives - dalagkol - split into ancient hinilawod
dalagko - was in use in the late eighteenth and nineteenth century
dako - current word used in hinilawod/ilonggo

alternative development path
daragkul - still used in karay.a but rarely
ragkul - still used in karay.a depending on location
bahul - final derivative used in current modern karay.a

----->> i would also like to forward these arguments in support of the idea that central visayan languages including tagalog are derivatives/ daughter languages of hiligaynon {not to be confused with modern hiligaynon}

but before i move forward let me define hiligaynon.
hiligaynon is the language of the ancient bisaya of panay, from word ilig or flow and denotes the dual nature of bisaya society - i.e. the river flow from the mountains to the sea, ergo - the hilagaynon can be found where rivers flow may that be from the mountains to the sea.

that hiligaynon was entirely different from the modern one and that ancient hiligaynon direct progeny is kiray.a which possess closely its characteristics.

that hiligaynon has split into three, modern karay.a, modern hinilawod and modern akeanon.
that akeanon was court language and limited to court use
that karay.a became the common language
that hinilawod became a trading language and that as a trading language it further morphed into lingua franca with high chinese and foreign influence. furthermore as hinilawod developed it became the language of the meztizo traders/ principalia and finally the spanish economendieros and meztizos. that from a trading language it developed into the language of the elite and pricipalia and as such it was given preferential usage by colonial leaders, that as a language of the rich and the landed it therefore became the language of the intelligentia. As a language of the intelligentia it became the language of commerce, business, religion, mass media, and education. This status in turn helped it spread and helped make its use widespread. furthermore , iloilo being the queen city of the south and colonial spain's bastion in the south - would have led hinilawod to be used by the spanish authorities not only in iloilo but also in their newly subjugated areas. since hinilawod was also the language of the church - anyone who became catholic would be influenced by hinilawod as well. that hinilawod shift became more pronounced and its identity as a separate language occurred in spanish iloilo that it became synonymous with ilonggo {the original hinilawod would actually be closer to modern capiznon}

so karay.a retained its name but hinilawod tranformed into ilonggo.

Now it the eighteenth century, the industrial revolution brought ruin to the industries of panay {textile} and that most ilonggo capitalists migrated to negros where land was cheap and plentiful {negros is like mindanao - it was just a recent acquisition by bisaya, negros i believe was muslim and historically part of muslim cebu and was not historically part of the confederation madyaas /hindu budhist whose trade and influence was aimed north}.Mass migration ensued tripling the population of negros during that century. most of the settlers were tradesmen and thus used ilonggo/hinilawod. on the other hand panay under the economic leadership of iloilo and negros became heated economic rivals, this rivalry further isolated negros and helped negros develop an identity of its own. though these settlers are mostly from panay isalnd and can be said to be ilonggo { panay was originally three sakops in prehispanic times then when the spanish came panay was split into two the first part was iloilo i.e provincia de oton which included iloilo down to central antique, and provincia de panay {for panay town in capiz which was the capital}/capiz which included northern iloilo , capiz and aklan. see http://www.veryfriendly-oton.com/about_oton/history.html. and http://www.antique.gov.ph/forresidents/abo...mes-a-province..


the competition between iloilo {iloilo and antique} and negros made people in negros aware of the differences. although ethnically ilonggo - people negros refer to themselves as "negrense", they've also stopped calling the language ilonggo and started referring to the the language as hiligaynon.

this is where all the confusion is coming from...














datumarco
now tagalog is said to be closely related to the central visayan languages, and from my earlier post i''ve proposed the idea that the central visayan languages i.e. ilonggo/hinilawod and tagalog are child languages of western visayan languages whose modern examples are karay.a and akeanon.

let us first study karay.a. http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Karay-a and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinaray-a#Differences

here is a list of karay.a nouns with four modes: Absolutive₁ (emphatic), Absolutive₂ (non-emphatic), Ergative (postposed), Ergative₂ (preposed) and Oblique

1st person singular ako taken naken, ko aken kanaken
2nd person singular ikaw, kaw timo nimo, mo imo kanimo
3rd person singular - tana nana, na ana kanana, kana
1st person plural inclusive kita taten naten, ta aten kanaten
1st person plural exclusive kami tamen namen amen kanamen
2nd person plural kamo tinyo ninyo, nyo inyo kaninyo
3rd person plural sanda tanda nanda anda kananda

here is alist of ilonggo nouns with three modes: Absolutive, Ergative, Oblique

1st person singular ako nakon, ko akon
2nd person singular ikaw, ka nimo, mo imo
3rd person singular siya niya iya
1st person plural inclusive kita naton, ta aton
1st person plural exclusive kami namon amon
2nd person plural kamo ninyo inyo
3rd person plural sila nila ila

on the earlier post ive outlined the causes for the language shift of hinilawod away from karay.a.

i.e. rhotacism by massive infusion of chinese and other foreign elements into the local trading language
and the development of trade slang.

characteristics of karay.a/hiligaynon - trilling r sound {for karay.a}
retains glottal stop - ex. matam.is - sweet, karan.on - eatable/kakanin in tagalog, bug.at - heavy
passive "ma" - makaon {ma - kaon} - to eat, masulat {ma - sulat} - to write
exclamatory/imperative affix - pag - pag kay.o {to behave}, pag kaon {to eat}, pag hipus {shut up/be silent}

some karay.a expressions

What is your name? - Ano ngaran mo?
Good morning! - Mayad nga aga!/Manami nga-aga!
Good afternoon! - Mayad nga hapon!/Manami nga hapun!
Good evening! - Mayad nga gab-i!/Manami nga gabi-i!
It is fun to live. - Sadya mabuhi/Sadya ang mabuhi.

also take a look at the karaa.y nouns and compare with tagalog ones

Direct (ang) Indirect (ng) Oblique (sa)
1st person singular ako ko akin
1st person dual kita/kata[3] nita/nata[3] kanitá/kanata (ata)[3]
1st person plural inclusive tayo natin atin
1st person plural exclusive kami namin amin
2nd person singular ikáw (ka) mo iyó
2nd person plural kayo ninyo inyo
3rd person singular siya niya kaniya
3rd person plural silá nilá kanilá

take a look at the
1st person singular ako ko akin ---- tagalog
1st person singular ako takən /nakən, ko akən kanakən - in karay.a

etc,

also see - http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Tagalog_language

since on our previous discussion we've discussed that the souther tagalogs may be the ones most related to bisaya.so we will focus on the southern tagalog dialects


to quote from http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Tagalog_language.


Many Tagalog dialects, particularly those in the south, preserve the glottal stop found after consonants and before vowels. This has been lost in standard Tagalog. For example standard Tagalog ngayon (now, today), sinigang (stew), gabi (night), matamis (sweet), are pronounced and written ngay-on, sinig-ang, gab-i, and matam-is in other dialects.
In Morong Tagalog, [r] is usually preferred over [d]. For example, bundók, dagat, dingdíng, and isdâ become bunrok, ragat, ringring, and isra.
In many southern dialects, the progressive aspect prefix of -um- verbs is na-. For example, standard Tagalog kumakain (eating) is nákáin in Quezon and Batangas Tagalog. This is the butt of some jokes by other Tagalog speakers since a phrase such as nakain ka ba ng pating is interpreted as "did a shark eat you?" by those from Manila but in reality means "do you eat shark?" to those in the south.
Some dialects have interjections which are a considered a trademark of their region. For example, the interjection ala eh usually identifies someone from Batangas while as does hani in Morong.
Perhaps the most divergent Tagalog dialects are those spoken in Marinduque. Linguist Rosa Soberano identifies two dialects, western and eastern with the former being closer to the Tagalog dialects spoken in the provinces of Batangas and Quezon.
One example are the verb conjugation paradigms. While some of the affixes are different, Marinduque also preserves the imperative affixes, also found in Visayan and Bikol languages, that have mostly disappeared from most Tagalog dialects by the early 20th century; they have since merged with the infinitive.
Standard Tagalog: Susulat sina Maria at Fulgencia kay Juan.
Marinduque Tagalog: Másúlat da Maria at Fulgencia kay Juan.
"Maria and Fulgencia will write to Juan."
ST: Mag-aaral siya sa Ateneo.
EM: Gaaral siya sa Ateneo.
"He will study at Ateneo."
ST: Magluto ka!
EM: Pagluto ka!
"Cook!"
ST: Kainin mo iyan.
EM: Kaina mo yaan.
"Eat that."
ST: Tinatawag ngâ tayo ni Tatay.
EM: Inatawag nganì kitá ni Tatay.
"Father is calling us."
ST: Tutulungan ba kayó ni Hilarion?
EM: Atulungan ga kamo ni Hilarion?
"Will Hilarion help you (pl.)?"

common elements with karay.a
pag,
ma,
na - such a nakakaon kaw run ka isda - have you eaten fish /
nouns such as ako, ikaw, natin - naton, etc.
trilling r {in morong}
glottal stops {southern dialects} only

other linguistic similarities might also exist. The difficulty here is that tagalog is well studied but karay.a is not {even though karay.a and akeanon are actually linguistically more complex than tagalog or hinilawod - see noun tables //// are central visayan languages simplified versions of western visayan languages?}. another difficulty would be lack of available material on the reason for classifying or differentiating between central visayan and western visayan. northern/standard tagalog dialects might be closer to hinilawod ilonggo while southern tagalog dialects are closer to kinaray.a??

since tagalog might be the descendants of bisaya {hiligaynon} settlers from panay there is a huge probability that ancient tagalog might have upland and lowland distinctions too {iraya and ilawod}. ?

further more is it possible that the ten datus actually spoke different dialects before settling in panay? that like the bornean dayaks there were sea and land bisaya??? that the dialects converged in the case of the tagalog colonist but diverged in the panay colonist {supposing both panay and southern luzon were peopled by the same settlers and consequently would have had a common mother tongue} other areas would have been influenced by these two colonies.





for now i hope this gives a rough idea of linguistic relationship between karay.a and tagalog esp the southern tagalog.
also
Prau123
QUOTE
i think people are confused between karay.a/hiniray.a and hiligaynon and ilonggo and this confusion creates difficulties in using language as a indicator of ethnic origins. linguist tend to look into the language "as is" without taking a look at its historical development. The current nomenclature used to describe the languages are ineffective and misleading.

i propose the following classification:

visayan languages then subclassification - hiligaynon, then subdivided into two daughter languages which are hinilawod and hiniray.a,

hiniray.a split into two - karay.a and akeanon
hinilawod also split into - ilonggo and capiznon.

the language splits are reflections of societal/sociopolitical and economic development of the bisaya {i.e. people of panay}

during pre - spanish times - bisaya society would have been polarized into the iraya or upland farmers and hunters/craftsmen and the ilawod fishermen/tradesmen. {the closest modern example would be the dayaks of borneo - i.e. the sea dayaks and the land dayaks}

at that point both hinilawod and hiniray.a would have been dialects and not different languages {though some linguist would still classify these as dialects} with the differences being minor ones. with both languages being closer to karay.a

e.x. central iloilo and antique vs mid southern iloilo and mid southern antique.

central iloilo/antique { this is the mountainous area}- wara it pagkaun
mid southern {this is coastal area} - wara ti pagkaon

these are the causes for panay's language shifts

as bisaya population increased and the their economies diversified there would be stronger centralization of government and courts/ towns built strictly for governance or politics would have developed. at this point akeanon would have have become a dialect of its own {there an old folklore that says that akeanon are "pitla" or lisps because the date was harelipped or "sungi" and that to please him i.e. so no one gets beheaded for making fun of the datu - the people started emulating him, thats why akeanon seldom have the r sound - similar words to karay.a but instead of r it becomes aeag, ex karaha is kaeaha.} The r difficulty in pronunciation is also a common speech defect and no one needs to be harelipped to be a victim of one the term for the impediment is called rhotacism see

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism"

In medicine, rhotacism is the inability or difficulty in pronouncing the sound r. In English, the most common occurrence of this type is a pronunciation perceived as closer to [w]. The Looney Tunes character Elmer Fudd is notorious for his exaggerated rhotacistic speech ("Be vewwy quiet: I'm hunting wabbits"). The cartoon character Homestar Runner talks in much the same way. In popular culture, examples include Roy Hodgson (nicknamed "Woy"), Jonathan Ross, Frank Muir, Sister Wendy Beckett, Terry Jones, and the politician Roy Jenkins. Other examples are interviewer Barbara Walters and actress Kay Francis.
Rhotacism is more common among speakers of languages that have a trilled R, such as Swedish, Italian, Polish, and Spanish. This sound is usually the last one a child masters. Some people never learn to produce it; they substitute other sounds, such as the velar approximant, the uvular approximant, and the uvular trill (often called "French R"). These pronunciations are generally considered speech defects, although they used to be considered prestigious in Poland previously.
Many speech pathologists call this problem derhotacization, because the sounds lose their rhotic quality (rather than becoming more rhotic).

- ask anyone from panay and they'll tell you how trilled karay.a's are with their r's {pun intended} hehe.

now for the effects of rhotacism - it seems that like in poland - the ability to mangle the r sound became prestigious in the datu's court in aklan that it gained a wide following.
- the other effect of rhotacsim is the further split of hinilawod and akeanon from hiniray.a

akeanon and karay.a share the"ra" exclamative, but in hinilawod it became "na"
e.x wara ra pagkaun si nonoy {karay.a} -
wala na pagkaon si nonoy {hinilawod/ilonggo}
wala pa pagkain si nonoy {tagalog} -
nonoy has no food {english}

in this case rhotacism changed the r sound to l and n. rhotacism is very common in panay, i have a karay.a speaking teacher in chemistry who had one, he kept pronouncing molecular as moleculal. Everyone in class tore at their hair when he gives quizzes in chemistry especially when he asks us to convert molar measurements in molal measurement - what we heard was " convert ten molal to its molal equivalent" - makes sense.. hehe..

The most common example of cultural mass rhotacism would be the chinese and koreans and japanese {in japanese it the reverse but is also rhotacism}.

e.x is ryan bang in ABS CBN's showtime saying " i like you, youl belly belly bueatipul"

people in panay {i'll deal with negros later separately} would tell you that to convert words from karay.a to akeanon and or ilonggo or vice versa you just follow this rule.

from ilonggo/hinilawod or karay.a to akeanon - convert the l or r into aeag., akeanon and ilonggo to karay.a just convert to r, from akeanon and karay.a to ilonggo just convert it to l.
ex.

karay.a - ang kalamay ga piririkit sa karaha
hinilawod - ang kalamay gapililikit sa kalaha
akeanon - ang kaeamay ga pea,eakit sa kaeaha

another factor in the language shift is the development of slang
ex. ancient hiligaynon root word {means spoken in the uplands of panay and is not in common use in both modern karay.a and modern hinilawod}and their slang equivalents in modern usage.

- old root word - daragkul/daragkol {u and o are latin based phonetic representations and inaccurately represents the bisayan phonetic sounds - if you want to see what i mean call me and ill show you.} the word daragkul means "big"

slang derivatives - dalagkol - split into ancient hinilawod
dalagko - was in use in the late eighteenth and nineteenth century
dako - current word used in hinilawod/ilonggo

alternative development path
daragkul - still used in karay.a but rarely
ragkul - still used in karay.a depending on location
bahul - final derivative used in current modern karay.a

----->> i would also like to forward these arguments in support of the idea that central visayan languages including tagalog are derivatives/ daughter languages of hiligaynon {not to be confused with modern hiligaynon}

but before i move forward let me define hiligaynon.
hiligaynon is the language of the ancient bisaya of panay, from word ilig or flow and denotes the dual nature of bisaya society - i.e. the river flow from the mountains to the sea, ergo - the hilagaynon can be found where rivers flow may that be from the mountains to the sea.

that hiligaynon was entirely different from the modern one and that ancient hiligaynon direct progeny is kiray.a which possess closely its characteristics.

that hiligaynon has split into three, modern karay.a, modern hinilawod and modern akeanon.
that akeanon was court language and limited to court use
that karay.a became the common language
that hinilawod became a trading language and that as a trading language it further morphed into lingua franca with high chinese and foreign influence. furthermore as hinilawod developed it became the language of the meztizo traders/ principalia and finally the spanish economendieros and meztizos. that from a trading language it developed into the language of the elite and pricipalia and as such it was given preferential usage by colonial leaders, that as a language of the rich and the landed it therefore became the language of the intelligentia. As a language of the intelligentia it became the language of commerce, business, religion, mass media, and education. This status in turn helped it spread and helped make its use widespread. furthermore , iloilo being the queen city of the south and colonial spain's bastion in the south - would have led hinilawod to be used by the spanish authorities not only in iloilo but also in their newly subjugated areas. since hinilawod was also the language of the church - anyone who became catholic would be influenced by hinilawod as well. that hinilawod shift became more pronounced and its identity as a separate language occurred in spanish iloilo that it became synonymous with ilonggo {the original hinilawod would actually be closer to modern capiznon}

so karay.a retained its name but hinilawod tranformed into ilonggo.

Now it the eighteenth century, the industrial revolution brought ruin to the industries of panay {textile} and that most ilonggo capitalists migrated to negros where land was cheap and plentiful {negros is like mindanao - it was just a recent acquisition by bisaya, negros i believe was muslim and historically part of muslim cebu and was not historically part of the confederation madyaas /hindu budhist whose trade and influence was aimed north}.Mass migration ensued tripling the population of negros during that century. most of the settlers were tradesmen and thus used ilonggo/hinilawod. on the other hand panay under the economic leadership of iloilo and negros became heated economic rivals, this rivalry further isolated negros and helped negros develop an identity of its own. though these settlers are mostly from panay isalnd and can be said to be ilonggo { panay was originally three sakops in prehispanic times then when the spanish came panay was split into two the first part was iloilo i.e provincia de oton which included iloilo down to central antique, and provincia de panay {for panay town in capiz which was the capital}/capiz which included northern iloilo , capiz and aklan. see http://www.veryfriendly-oton.com/about_oton/history.html. and http://www.antique.gov.ph/forresidents/abo...mes-a-province..


the competition between iloilo {iloilo and antique} and negros made people in negros aware of the differences. although ethnically ilonggo - people negros refer to themselves as "negrense", they've also stopped calling the language ilonggo and started referring to the the language as hiligaynon.

this is where all the confusion is coming from...


Great job datumarco for this long post. I just want to add that the development of the Spanish hacienda system and commercial trade reorganized Visayan society. Hiligaynons occupied the eastern side of Panay whereas most of the Karay-a and Akeanons were on the mountainous western side of Panay. Even today as you exit Roxas City and head towards Iloilo City, the population significantly decreases as many of the lands are still owned by large haciendas. Most of the population today lives in the town centers or on the hacienda lands themselves, but as tenants (fully dependent upon their hacienda master) with the vast majority of them being landless and poor. This economic disparity helped developed the NPA of the past, and continues to breed other lawless groups today. Whereas, in Aklan, land is distributed fairly evenly. There are very few haciendas in Aklan, and probably most of them are fish pond haciendas near the border with Capiz. I can't speak of Antique, since I have unfortunately not been there yet, but I hope to one day, but from what my Antiqueno relatives say, it's similar to Aklan. As you said, the ancient language of Panay was Karay-a (or old Karay-a or proto-Karay-a), and as you said it split between Hiniray-a and Hinilawod, with Hiniray-a eventually splitting into Karay-a and Akeanon, and Hinilawod splitting into Ilonggo and Capiznon. Hinilawod being the language of trade which filtered into the eastern lowlands of Panay which was probably aided by the reorganization of the lowland society into haciendas and commercial towncenters which were next to the sea. A type of social and linguistic caste was developed. Those that lived as workers in the haciendas, or worked in the towncenters adopted Hinilawod, and those that lived in mountanious Antique and Aklan spoke Hiniray-a. And as you said, Hinilawod was used by the Principalia class, the Spanish, Chinese, and foreigners, and the Church. Hinilawod was the language of the lowland society which was more modern, more organized, more ecclesiastical, and more connected with the rest of the Visayas. This pattern repeated itself throughout the Visayas, and spread the Central Visayan languages which may have all originated from Hinilawod. Other than Cebu, wasn't Panay the other major Spanish stronghold in the early colonial period? Since the languages of Romblon, Masbate, northeastern Leyte, Samar, and parts of southern Bicol are related to modern Hiligaynon (all of them being classified as Central Visayan languages), then it would probably be fair to assume that they all derive from Hiligaynon (Hinilawod), in my opinion, as you said. Furthermore, central and eastern Visayas seem to have less linguistic diversity with perhaps the exception of the Bicol region.


QUOTE (datumarco @ Feb 17 2011, 03:06 AM) *
now tagalog is said to be closely related to the central visayan languages, and from my earlier post i''ve proposed the idea that the central visayan languages i.e. ilonggo/hinilawod and tagalog are child languages of western visayan languages whose modern examples are karay.a and akeanon.

let us first study karay.a. http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Karay-a and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinaray-a#Differences

here is a list of karay.a nouns with four modes: Absolutive₁ (emphatic), Absolutive₂ (non-emphatic), Ergative (postposed), Ergative₂ (preposed) and Oblique

1st person singular ako taken naken, ko aken kanaken
2nd person singular ikaw, kaw timo nimo, mo imo kanimo
3rd person singular - tana nana, na ana kanana, kana
1st person plural inclusive kita taten naten, ta aten kanaten
1st person plural exclusive kami tamen namen amen kanamen
2nd person plural kamo tinyo ninyo, nyo inyo kaninyo
3rd person plural sanda tanda nanda anda kananda

here is alist of ilonggo nouns with three modes: Absolutive, Ergative, Oblique

1st person singular ako nakon, ko akon
2nd person singular ikaw, ka nimo, mo imo
3rd person singular siya niya iya
1st person plural inclusive kita naton, ta aton
1st person plural exclusive kami namon amon
2nd person plural kamo ninyo inyo
3rd person plural sila nila ila

on the earlier post ive outlined the causes for the language shift of hinilawod away from karay.a.

i.e. rhotacism by massive infusion of chinese and other foreign elements into the local trading language
and the development of trade slang.

characteristics of karay.a/hiligaynon - trilling r sound {for karay.a}
retains glottal stop - ex. matam.is - sweet, karan.on - eatable/kakanin in tagalog, bug.at - heavy
passive "ma" - makaon {ma - kaon} - to eat, masulat {ma - sulat} - to write
exclamatory/imperative affix - pag - pag kay.o {to behave}, pag kaon {to eat}, pag hipus {shut up/be silent}

some karay.a expressions

What is your name? - Ano ngaran mo?
Good morning! - Mayad nga aga!/Manami nga-aga!
Good afternoon! - Mayad nga hapon!/Manami nga hapun!
Good evening! - Mayad nga gab-i!/Manami nga gabi-i!
It is fun to live. - Sadya mabuhi/Sadya ang mabuhi.

also take a look at the karaa.y nouns and compare with tagalog ones

Direct (ang) Indirect (ng) Oblique (sa)
1st person singular ako ko akin
1st person dual kita/kata[3] nita/nata[3] kanitá/kanata (ata)[3]
1st person plural inclusive tayo natin atin
1st person plural exclusive kami namin amin
2nd person singular ikáw (ka) mo iyó
2nd person plural kayo ninyo inyo
3rd person singular siya niya kaniya
3rd person plural silá nilá kanilá

take a look at the
1st person singular ako ko akin ---- tagalog
1st person singular ako takən /nakən, ko akən kanakən - in karay.a

etc,

also see - http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Tagalog_language

since on our previous discussion we've discussed that the souther tagalogs may be the ones most related to bisaya.so we will focus on the southern tagalog dialects


to quote from http://en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php?title=Tagalog_language.


Many Tagalog dialects, particularly those in the south, preserve the glottal stop found after consonants and before vowels. This has been lost in standard Tagalog. For example standard Tagalog ngayon (now, today), sinigang (stew), gabi (night), matamis (sweet), are pronounced and written ngay-on, sinig-ang, gab-i, and matam-is in other dialects.
In Morong Tagalog, [r] is usually preferred over [d]. For example, bundók, dagat, dingdíng, and isdâ become bunrok, ragat, ringring, and isra.
In many southern dialects, the progressive aspect prefix of -um- verbs is na-. For example, standard Tagalog kumakain (eating) is nákáin in Quezon and Batangas Tagalog. This is the butt of some jokes by other Tagalog speakers since a phrase such as nakain ka ba ng pating is interpreted as "did a shark eat you?" by those from Manila but in reality means "do you eat shark?" to those in the south.
Some dialects have interjections which are a considered a trademark of their region. For example, the interjection ala eh usually identifies someone from Batangas while as does hani in Morong.
Perhaps the most divergent Tagalog dialects are those spoken in Marinduque. Linguist Rosa Soberano identifies two dialects, western and eastern with the former being closer to the Tagalog dialects spoken in the provinces of Batangas and Quezon.
One example are the verb conjugation paradigms. While some of the affixes are different, Marinduque also preserves the imperative affixes, also found in Visayan and Bikol languages, that have mostly disappeared from most Tagalog dialects by the early 20th century; they have since merged with the infinitive.
Standard Tagalog: Susulat sina Maria at Fulgencia kay Juan.
Marinduque Tagalog: Másúlat da Maria at Fulgencia kay Juan.
"Maria and Fulgencia will write to Juan."
ST: Mag-aaral siya sa Ateneo.
EM: Gaaral siya sa Ateneo.
"He will study at Ateneo."
ST: Magluto ka!
EM: Pagluto ka!
"Cook!"
ST: Kainin mo iyan.
EM: Kaina mo yaan.
"Eat that."
ST: Tinatawag ngâ tayo ni Tatay.
EM: Inatawag nganì kitá ni Tatay.
"Father is calling us."
ST: Tutulungan ba kayó ni Hilarion?
EM: Atulungan ga kamo ni Hilarion?
"Will Hilarion help you (pl.)?"

common elements with karay.a
pag,
ma,
na - such a nakakaon kaw run ka isda - have you eaten fish /
nouns such as ako, ikaw, natin - naton, etc.
trilling r {in morong}
glottal stops {southern dialects} only

other linguistic similarities might also exist. The difficulty here is that tagalog is well studied but karay.a is not {even though karay.a and akeanon are actually linguistically more complex than tagalog or hinilawod - see noun tables //// are central visayan languages simplified versions of western visayan languages?}. another difficulty would be lack of available material on the reason for classifying or differentiating between central visayan and western visayan. northern/standard tagalog dialects might be closer to hinilawod ilonggo while southern tagalog dialects are closer to kinaray.a??

since tagalog might be the descendants of bisaya {hiligaynon} settlers from panay there is a huge probability that ancient tagalog might have upland and lowland distinctions too {iraya and ilawod}. ?

further more is it possible that the ten datus actually spoke different dialects before settling in panay? that like the bornean dayaks there were sea and land bisaya??? that the dialects converged in the case of the tagalog colonist but diverged in the panay colonist {supposing both panay and southern luzon were peopled by the same settlers and consequently would have had a common mother tongue} other areas would have been influenced by these two colonies.

for now i hope this gives a rough idea of linguistic relationship between karay.a and tagalog esp the southern tagalog.
also


I'm not a linguist if I can be honest with you, but if Tagalog is less complex compared to Karay-a and Akeanon, could it be because it retained more of the proto-Karay-a elements whereas modern Karay-a and modern Akeanon developed into full Visayan languages perhaps due to the influences of the other languages in the Visayas?

I've also often wondered if the original Ten Datus spoke one language, or a few dialects. It's interesting that you said that the Ten Datu dialects (if there was more than one) converged into one to form Tagalog, wheras in Panay they divided.


Now, I'm going to digress, and talk about the Eastern and Central Visayas. Today, northeastern Leyte and Samar speak Waray-Waray, and then there is Cebuano in Cebu. But between Cebu and Leyte is an oddball language in the Camotes islands called Porohanon which is closley related to Masbatenyo, Capiznon, and Hiligaynon, and these four languages form the Peripheral Central Visayan language subfamily. Why is Porohanon in this part of the Visayas, so far away from the other three related languages, and so near Cebuano and Waray-Waray??? My theory is that the Peripheral Central Visayan languages had a larger range in the past which included Leyte and parts of Samar. But a recent expansion of Waray-Waray took away part of this range, and perhaps also a recent expansion of Cebuano into southern Leyte and southern Masbate also took away part of this range which left Porohanon all by itself in the Camotes islands. I suspect that Waray-Waray and Cebuano had a recent expansion since there is very little diversification into child languages or dialects in Leyte, Samar, Bohol, and southern Masbate.

The only other explanation I can think of is that the Hiligaynons/Capiznons/Masbatenyos used the Camotes Islands as a stop-over island while sailing back and forth to Cebu or Leyte which likely replaced a Cebuano language or some other language in the Camotes islands.
filipinoy
i can still understand batangas tagalog but i heard some clips of marinduque tagalog.. it sounds like a different language.. although i used to know someone from Marinduque his tagalog was just average/standard.

edit: yeah theyre bi-dialect http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca...1-1_053-074.pdf


Marinduque Legend http://www.csun.edu/~lan56728/marinduque3.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batangas#The_...storic_Batangas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_...rs_per_language now lists bikol as separate languages..

& i guess the languages(# 77,78) spoken in the bottom half of the southern bikol region called "sorsogon bikol" is considered a waray language..not bikol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisakol_languages
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