As it is one of the Christian's important celebration, it is fitting to raise this issue. According to the Jakarta Post the English edition of the Indon daily, Christians has been regularly persecuted by Islamist groups in Indonesia and yet the government of Yudiyono refused to condemn them. The most persecuted minority is the Indon Christians, and this has been going on since 2000, a good 10 years.

Obama called Indonesia the most tolerant Muslim country in the world, is this true? Surely he the CIA must have advised him of the plight of the Indon Christians?

Go to www.thejakartapost.com

ps if you celebrate Christmas, then have a good time during this holiday period.

Indonesia is the best model ..... a democracy can overcome extremism and corruption in their society ...

Tongue in cheek right?

Indonesian mobs step up sectarian violence

Tom Allard INDONESIA CORRESPONDENT
February 9, 2011


THE brutal killing of three followers of the Islamic sect Ahmadiyah by a crazed mob over the weekend and assaults on two Christian churches yesterday have renewed concerns about growing violence against religious minorities in Indonesia and the unwillingness of authorities to contain marauding gangs of Islamist thugs.

Coming as Indonesia celebrates ''interfaith harmony week'', the killings and assaults are acutely embarrassing for the President, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who has faced criticism for more than a year for turning a blind eye to rising sectarian attacks, which almost always go unpunished by police.

Late on Monday Dr Yudhoyono expressed his abhorrence at the murders of the three Ahmadis, ordering a police investigation.
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He expressed regret that authorities were unable to contain the group of more than 1000 people who attacked a house where a group of Ahmadis were staying.

''We cannot tolerate this kind of thing happening again and again,'' Dr Yudhoyono told journalists.

The attack in the West Java province of Banten was caught on video. It shows young men beating and stoning the three men to death as they lie near-naked and bloodied.

One police officer tries to stop the mob. Another policeman stands in the background watching impassively.

An Ahmadiyah spokesman, Mubarik Achmand, said police had advance notice of the assault, telling the owner of the house that was attacked, Parman, that he was antagonising his Muslim neighbours and asking him to leave.

''Parman told the police that they must protect him instead of asking him to move out of his birthplace,'' Mr Mubarik said. ''Parman then told his friends in Jakarta of what happened and two sedans from Jakarta arrived Sunday morning and they rested in Parman's house. The mob came a few hours later.''

Two people have been detained and 13 others are being questioned.

Violence against Ahmadis, who have lived in Indonesia since 1925, has escalated greatly in the past few years, reaching a high point after the Ministry of Religious Affairs issued a decree in 2008 finding it to be a deviant sect and banning it from proselytising.

Last year the conservative Minister for Religious Affairs, Suryadharma Ali, called for it to be outlawed, citing the country's blasphemy laws and describing such a measure as an ''act of love''.

According to the Setara Institute, which monitors religious violence, there were 15 attacks on Ahmadis in 2008, 33 in 2009 and 50 last year. Last month there were five attacks. Perpetrators have been very rarely brought to justice. Instead, Ahmadis are often asked to move.

The decree is widely seen as encouraging Islamic vigilantes who detest Ahmadiyah beliefs that an Indian preacher, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, was the second coming of the ''messiah'' supposedly foreshadowed in the Islamic hadith.

Attacks on Christian churches have also risen greatly in recent years; there were 75 last year. Yesterday a 1500-strong mob burned and ransacked two churches in Temanggung, Central Java, destroying one of them. A nearby school was also reportedly badly damaged.

The militants were angry that a Christian man accused of distributing literature that blasphemed Islam was sentenced to five years' jail rather than receiving the death penalty.

SOURCE: thesmh.com.au

They (the mob) are sons of pigs.

"Bikin malu"... make me feel soo angry and ashamed as Indonesian....
Govt must disband all that organized fundamentalist religious mob... start with F**in FPI...

You shouldn't Majapahitans. You proclaimed a detest for these hateful militants in another thread who drag down Islam itself with their despicable behavior. I saw the hateful video and these young militant thugs. Would you fight and defend your neighbor if these thugs attact him or her because they are different?. I'll join you with some bats and the other members here Muslim, Kristen, Buddhist, agnositic multiracial and beat the brains out of these hoodlums and show some unity among Indonesians and others citizens of Indo descent. The police are sometimes non existant to help.

Watch out for this chutzpah guy, he likes to lump and separate all racial and religious groups as one faction in odds all the time in the Malaysian thread. While he can post this topic, He doesn't see the general good people living side by side of different backgrounds who don't make the news.

I bet you are one of those self proclaimed 'moderate' Muslim. If you truly feel so strongly about the Islamist thugs' despicable deeds, you should fight them with or without Majapahitans, why should you wait for him to start the fight?


Watch out?
Why don't you justify your charge?
Why do you whine about the fact that I post hateful and despicable issues done to non Muslims/non Malays in Bolehland and Indonesia?
Why don't you post something positive to counter mine instead of whinging and whining?

Let me put it this way...
I truly deteste the religious-based bigotry, hatred and intolerance. No matter what religion it was. IMO the recent Ahmadiah and religious riots that led to church burning in Indonesia is a shameful incidents for us majority of Indonesian muslims, I can say to you majority of us are actually real pluralist, moderate and tolerant. Indonesian govt and authority is to blame for let this happen without severe punishment against those religious vigilantes, and also Indonesian religious authority such as ulemas that some of them might preach a less moderate and less peaceful messages in their sermons. All we want is peace.

Yet I do understand of FutureMan concern, that actually there is some of you out there that is a true flamers and trolls, by posting controversial news and issues in order to attack certain groups and gather (desired) responses from the forum, such as hate and emotional response or else. In AF there are notable posters that usually targeted either muslims or austronesian/malay race in Malaysian or Indonesian chat. So go figure, although this issue sometimes deserve the attention to be discussed, I often highly doubted some of the posters good intentions to involved in civilized and mutual respect discussion, since it seems their goal is mainly to humiliate and attack certain groups in general. So far the best conduct I've done is condemned the incident, yet ignored the first poster whom usually are the true trolls/flamers. So if there some of you being ignored by me..., well maybe I think you are a troll flamer and I don't want to feed a troll. And if some you start to demonize Islam or Muslim, and embarked on religious debates of how your religion is better than other, and expect us to convert immediately..., sorry..., I would not buy it.

Now that I've stated my opinion and POV, I'll ignore some of you a highly possible troll-flamer. Bye...!

I am sure that you are 101% sincere in what you have said and you probably represent many Indonesians, but you are annoyed because some of us cannot understand when you are speaking of "Islam as practiced in Indonesia" and the "true Islam" as advocated in the Quran, the Hadiths, the Sira. And this is why we are speaking at cross purposes. The current "Islam practiced in Indonesia" is far from identical to the "Islamic ideologies as taught in the Quran and Hadiths."

I suspect that many Indonesians do not want to talk about "orthodox Islam" because it may be harsh compared to Islam practiced in Indonesia today. But as you know, there can be only One Islam as there is Only One Allah and One Quran. So in an open society, we should be allowed to speak of religion freely to express our views as we see it. I am sure you will agree to that?

You said that the Indonesian Government is to blame for allowing those vigilantes to carry out such acts and not punishing them severely. Let me ask you a simple question, "On what basis can a Government punish some vigilantes if they acted totally in accordance with what is in the Quran? Should they still be persecuted? If so is not the Government acting against the commands of the Quran and thus against Allah? What are your views on this? Is the Government above the Laws of Allah or does it comply with the Laws of Allah?

It is your perogative to ignore, to label people a troll etc etc etc.. However to label those who post the truth about what is done to non Malays/Indons/non Muslims as hater, racist, anti Islam and at the same breath talking about civility is quite hypocritical. So far I have not read anyone who purposely posted anti Islam articles on either the MY/IND chats unless it is in response to some issue involving non Muslim/Indon/Malays. Yet I have read plenty of comments denigrading these unfortunate people born in a wrong place and mostly it is unprovoked!

As I have asked frequently is it wrong to highlight the truth of what is happening? It is all very well to say you are disgusted about what is happening, but why condemn those who highlight them when they do not intentionally denigrate Islam/Indon/Malays? Better stop pontificating unless you have something concrete to add to the issue.

BTW try complete this saying stick and stones ..... and may be you will learn something! And you don't need to respond to any of my post either directly on indirectly (as you have done)

chutzpah, At best, discussions about religion are always very sensitive issues because it is an issue of faith. And often we become impatient with the other person and our defence is to belittle them. This creates disharmony and it is a shame because it ends the discussion. Yet there is so much to talk about in order to understand one another's points of view if we are able to discuss it in a civilised way.

I have found that Indonesian Muslims (and Malay Muslims) view their Islam in quite a different light from that of Arabian Muslims. And because of this sometimes we talk at cross purposes. It isn't that there are different Islam's, because there is only One Islam, but it is the way Islam is "practiced" in these countries is different. And why is it different? Because of their history. So this must be kept in mind when we discuss Islam in the Far East.

I have come to the conclusion that for the majority of Muslims in the Far East they are actually "Islam Illiterate." But in Arabia, where Islam has been the only religion in their history for the past 1400 years, their form of Islam is taken for granted. In SEAsia, many Muslims are still discovering Islam.

Yes..and far east muslims are so much better to get along with...not like the arab muslims who think themselves so highly, look down upon women, incite problems in other countries. rude bastard..anyway if Muslims are really serious about being 'peaceful' crack down upon your misbehaving brothers. I can see that that's not happening...so they are condoning the behaviour...

There's an increase of Islamic fundamentalism in Indo. It did not come from a local source. They should all be shot in public and their followers prosecuted. Man there should be another Suharto, that's the way Indo has to be ruled...

cynoptism, you need to understand Islam.understanding Islam

Chutzpah you are the one whining and dividing people along racial and religious lines in Malaysia. No wonder CD, Yana and swingdoctor called you out on your hypocrasy and true intentions. Majapahitans and I just condemned those radical @ss hole thug gangs commiting these heinous crimes. I am sure those militants exist in Malaysia too. You just want to play everyone against each other when it is not entirely true. So grow up and learn


Well said Mas You are the very few who actually lives in Jakarta, Indonesia so you know the pulse of the people there; as oppose to many of us Indonesian posters who live outside. Even though I live here in the US, most of my relatives and sister/father lives in Jakarta. I chat with some of my female friends there and ofcourse they don't like it either. Here in the US I am a minority so I can sympathize with others there. I saw the video and I have to believe those militant Muslim Indonesian young men are just a radical segment who may be unemployed and do not represent the majority of those trying to live, educate and work day to day. Aman teman ku

i think chutzpah had no sense and sensitivity, this guy and the likes of the drones had been pestering the forum with hatred. we don't need people like you chutzpah! bohoo

1. While I do not disagree with what you said, and it is appreciated, I think you are off the mark. I do not belittle Islam or the Indon/Malay race. I merely point out what is happening to non Muslims in both countries which happen to be Islamic. For posting these issues I have been labelled anti Islam and anti Indon/Malay, not that it matters much to me. However it speaks volume about my accusers who mostly made up of Muslims from both countries as can be seen from the previous post in this thread by Majapahitans, and not the first time. FYI, I never belittle any religion or race without provocation.

Let me ask you this: is it at all possible to have an informed discussion with a Muslim about Islam?

2. I will leave this one alone for the time being.

3. Could you please elaborate further on what you mean by the Far East being Islam illiterate, Islam being taken for granted in Arabia and in SEA Muslims are still discovering Islam.

Perhaps the one that needs growing up is you. As you are being oh so self righteous, why don't you answer those questions below instead of more whining? Yana as an example? oh purleeeez spare me. At least CD has the intergrity to respond which is much more than can be said about you, a notable whinger and a hypocrite at best. Just in case you miss them again, here they are:

Why, thank you fatlee. It is also heartening to note your admission for being able to think at all. And I take it you are trying to show how sensitive you can be by the above comment huh?

lol just stop btchin around with your grumbling..

what's your purpose of posting these news article about violence and discrimination? may i ask you that? obviously you were trying to propagate your agenda to instill hatred. you have deep issues with people around you, deal with it, stop being a douche.

Aw... there you go again by trying to be sensitive AND cerebral by using French too.... tsk tsk tsk .. amazing really. My purpose have been stated time and again in the beginning, so don't be lazy, look for it before you ejaculate further with your baseless accusations.

I take it you do not have problem with those issues? apart from being a putrid colostomy bag?
BTW I would check up on the word douche before using it. I know you are mentally challenged, for your own sake try pretend you are otherwise and not advertise it. You have done well so far until you try to be too clever with the douche word.

chutzpah, galvatron and the others tamil hindu fantaics will not be allowed in malaysia or indonesia

china and everyone else is more than welcome, tamil hindu fanatics minority need to leave.

tamil muslim malaysians are living excellent lives in malaysia and are not causing terrorism like tamil hindus.

stop talking about "chinese and indians" only talk about indians. dont try to hide behind other ethnic groups.

(1) I agree that it is not often possible to have a civilised discussion about Islam with a Muslim for several reasons. (1a) Religion is always a very emotional topic of conversation. (2a) Most people do not have sufficient knowledge of Islam to discuss the ideological points of view in detail, this includes non-Muslims as well as Muslims, and especially Indonesian/Malaysian Muslim, because of this lack of depth of knowledge of the Quran and the Hadiths and the Shariah Laws. (3a) Why? Because there is a lack of sophistication of the teaching of Islam in the Schools and the Mosques. So when people discuss Islam it is based on pre-concieved ideas learned from their peers and this is often incorrect or erroneous. Just for example: Muslims claim Islam means "Peace" and that is incorrect, it means "submission to Allah." There is no connection to "Peace" except through dissimulation. Islam comes from the root word of "Aslam" and not "salam." See what I mean?

(2) This was about,"It isn't that there are different Islam's, because there is only One Islam, but it is the way Islam is "practiced" in these countries is different. And why is it different? Because of their history.

This is part and parcel of discussing Islam in Indonesia. Most people forget that the Indonesian people have been blessed by the gods to live in a country of plenty and therefore over the thousands of years they have all live in "relative" peace and harmony with very little wars and fighting. And because of the geography they developed a very "laid-back way of life."

First, Indonesians were influenced by "spiritualism and shamanism" from the early days of man in Indonesia until about the 4th century when Hinduism arrived and introduced by friendly Indian traders. These Indian traders also introduced Buddhism in the 5th century. These two religions were benign and peaceful religions and this formed the basis of the Indonesian culture which can still be exhibited by the Balinese of today. Then after of this influence of more than 1,000 years of Hinduism and Buddhism came Islam also introduced peacefully by Indian and Eastern African traders some 500 years ago.

I claim that the influence of the Hindu and Buddhist influence on the character and culture of the Indonesians is indelible. That is why Indonesian Muslims are unique as Muslims and not representative of True Muslims worldwide. Culture of a nation cannot change overnight. It takes generations, tens of generations to alter even slightly. Study the culture of Hinduism or that of China. But the influence of orthodox Islam will place a very heavy influence on modern Indonesia and Malaysia mainly throughly the Wahabbi movement.

(3) "Islamic Illiteracy" To appreciate what I am trying to say here, you have to study how Islamic knowledge is transmitted from generation unto generation. You have to study how Islam is taught to the general public. But you also have to study how the teachers were educated or trained and to what level of Islam to be able to impart Islam to their students. What is the depth of understanding do the teachers and Imams have about Islam. You will be surprised the level of education to qualify to be a teacher in an Islamic school, or madrassah or to be an Imam. Only then will you appreciate what I mean by "Illiteracy in Islam."

I leave you to do your own research based on my prompts above. All these topics have already been thoroughly investigated and discussed in Google Knols. Look it up.

Don't waste your time with the topic opener. He didn't figure out life yet.

Why don't you learn read my response in English instead of getting defensive? Majapahitans and I already posted my dislike for them, but you insist to lump and group each faction as separate and always fighting each other. I live in the US and I meet good and bad of all races buddy; so I see @ss holes in every race, religion and culture. Nobody is above criticism including you and I, the other Indoneisan posters, or non Indonesians like Ralf, han2 or elleXO. Maybe you had a bad Valentines day with no woman in your life.

I agree that the islam practiced here is different than in the middle east. all the the great monotheistic religions/ religions of the book, i.e. islam, and christianity are all middle eastern religions. culturally - middle easterners are very patriarchal and very territorial with strong religious zeal. the prophet mohammed and jesus were actually reformers who tried to change how middle easterners viewed the world - jesus got crucified and the prophet mohammed was chased out of mecca . religion is very hard to discuss because it has a lot of cultural and traditional ideals embedded in the religion. Most people do not even think about the cultural aspect of religion and it makes it hard for them to truly understand their religions because they are unable to put their religions ideals into the proper context.

Their is no need to demonize islam. Islam has a lot to share to the world. some would say that judaism brought the message for the order brought by the rule of law, christianity the message for the temperance by love and islam the love of god by absolute obedience or submission...

I come from a multi racial/multi cutural/ multi religious family. I've read both bible and quran and in both their are some passage that might indicate violence but would actually indicate otherwise if you put it in the proper context.

I also agree that religious illiteracy often leads wrong notions about religion, then it leads to intolerance which finally leads to violence.

I've actually observed that most terrorist dont value or dont even listen to the ulema and the imams. Here in the philippines we've even have imams getting gunned down by militants while on their way to negotiate for hostage releases. just a few months ago we've had an imam gunned down on his way to market and they were robbed of their goods.

-- ASEAN muslims are more tolerant and respectful of women because of our ancient cultures, Indonesia had a woman president// {most christians are very patriarchal too and many christian countries do not have women in power e.x italy/greece etc}, the philippines have lots of women muslims in high places in government/ we've also had two female presidents/ our rasuls/solimans - from suleiman/ dilangalen and other notables served as senators, government ministers/ congresswomen and governors/ interfamily feuds are usually resolved by the old women of the clan. so on and so forth.

Singling out all muslims because of what a select group did is wrong. there are christian extremist and terrorist too you know { remember irelands IRA? - im a christian by since birth - so i should know}..

I hope intolerance doesnt win - because if it does people like me would be killed on sight {im having nightmares - i have arab/italian/ chinese/ filipino blood - if people start killing other people because of religion or race id have nowhere to go - im not pure arab so arabs can kill me, im not a european so europeans wont accepts me and im also not a pure asian. whew.}

datumarco, firstly we have to be clear what we mean by "demonise Islam." Normally "demonise" would imply distorting the truth or telling downright lies about someone. But if you are telling the truth, like quoting from the Holy Text, surely that cannot be demonising? Surely if I quoted, "Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah's Apostle (Muhammnad) said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'" I am not demonising either Muhammad or Islam. I am simply quoting an Islamic quote for the Hadiths. I am demonising no one or no religion. Do you see what I am trying to get at? So if you accuse me of demonising Islam because I quoted that Hadith, then you are the person who is doing the demonising. Do you follow my logic? You are trying to blame me for something that is accepted in the Islamic world to be true.

Or for you to say, "judaism brought the message for the order brought by the rule of law, christianity the message for the temperance by love and islam the love of god by absolute obedience or submission... is such broad generalisations that I could dispute you on all of those remarks, but not here....

You claim to come from a multicultural background and you claim to have read bit and pieces of the Quran or the Bible, but as you have said the it could be out of context, and you may have only one end of the stick. Because to appreciate the theology or ideology of a religion and its intent it has to be read within the context of the Whole of the Bible or the Quran and in relationship with the current practices of her adherents.

Most ordinary people are relatively illiterate regarding their own religions. In fact, I consider many Imams or Priests also illiterate about their own faiths. Have you discovered what are the academic qualifications required to be an Imam? Or a religious teacher in a Madrassah? If you do know then you will know if they are really qualified to understand their Islam, of Christianity, or Judiasm. Most of them are very shallow in their knowledge of Islam etc. Would you be qualified to teach in a Sunday school?

Here is where I disagree with you. You said,

QUOTE

most terrorist dont value or dont even listen to the ulema and the imams

In my opinion, I have tried to fault these Islamic Terrorists/Suicide Bombers/Islamic Jihadists to be able to say they have disobeyed the laws of Allah and Killed against his wishes. But I cannot find any fault in their actions. They have been in fact more orthodox and pious Muslims adhering closely to the teachings of the Quran, so much so, that they are actually better Muslims than the ordinary Muslim in the street. These Jihadist have not misunderstood Islam, they have understood it well.

Therefore, for us to understand the motivation of these Jihadists we have to first understand the ideology that drives them to make their ultimate sacrifice for Allah.

Why are we discussing Islam and Jihadism? because read this extract:

QUOTE

How Many Muslims Are Terrorists?

I am often asked to guess as to how many Muslims are jihadists. The easiest answer is: enough to commit the terrorist acts detailed in this 1,000-page-long Islamic Terror Timeline. But if you are looking for a more analytical response, I think the math goes something like this:
There are between 1.2 and 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Half are women. While a substantial percentage of Islamic women support jihad, less than one in fifty Islamic terrorist acts is actually perpetrated by a female. That leaves us with a maximum pool of jihadists that is just over 50% of the total population.
The overwhelming preponderance of terrorist acts are conducted by young Muslim men 15 to 30 years old. This age bracket covers about half of the male population of the Islamic world, leaving us with a potential jihad pool of 25% of all Muslims - approximately 300 million people.
The most logical way to determine the percentage of Muslims who are salafi/fundamentalists - a precondition to jihad - is to consider the most recent elections in Islamic countries. For example, the fundamentalist Islamic group HAMAS received 65% of the popular vote in "Palestine." The somewhat secular Fatah, at least by comparison to HAMAS, won only 30% of the votes.
While he was not popularly elected, Turkey's president, Ahmet Necdet Sezar, is a fundamentalist Muslim. Turkey's parliament, which selected him by a 70% majority, is formed as a result of a popular mandate and it is predominately composed of fundamentalist Muslims. Turkey's Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is the nation's most popular leader. He is a convicted felon who believes: "Mosques are our barracks, domes are our helmets, minarets our bayonets, and believers our soldiers." He won a landslide victory in 2002 - and Turkey is considered to be the most moderate Islamic state.

Then ask yourself, How many Christians are killing themselves for Jesus? Or how many Jews are blowing themselves up for Jehovah? Then you wonder why we talk so much about Islam? Use your logic and it may dawn upon you why.

It seems you are the messed up one here. Better turn yourself in, before you join those terrorists. You both seem to have the problem interpreting things wrong. I don't know why you try to debate this on this website. Maybe try a site which goes about it. Anyways, killing is wrong, its what that book says. Unless its supported by law or if they fight islam. Terrorists attack innocent people, hence terrorism. Innocent people, which the word already implies, are innocent. Someone eating a burger in a macd that gets bombed by a terrorist is innocent, even if that burger was made of pork. Innocent people dont fight the Islam or killed muhammed father, they eat burgers and other innocent things.

Nice extract of bull$hit btw. We can all throw with numbers to scare people off. Hey, you also quoted politicians. Yeah, they know religion is a great tool to win people for your goal. Not strange coming from him.

As futureman, a very weird but apparently goodhearted guy, already said '' all religions, nations, governments and races'' are guilty of these things. These four things are groups, groups of people which have something in common. They fight other groups for their own benefit or as defence.

I dont know where you critics come from, what you are or what you believe. But i am sure that the groups you belong to did something terrible too.

I will also remind you that the most followers of islam happen to be in poor, if not the poorest countries of the world. Most of their inhabitants are poor. Their rich dictator rulers only take care of themselves and let the poor people rot and the resources of their countries get stolen by foreign companies. Naturally there is a lot of hatred and jealousy. Religion is (created by men or god) to keep order. It has a lot of good teachings about how you should behave. for example dont kill anyone. From here it can go two ways.
The priest/ imam or whatever that leads the group, can use the book to create HOPE, so everyone believe it will come alright one day. That same guy can feed the hatred, and use his followers for his own good. That can be killing non-followers or feeding his lust for power (or any other human desire).

The few followers of the islam you are talking about, are just one of the examples in our human history. If you need to criticize one race, let it be the human race. Please read your history book or daily unbiased newspaper for other examples.

small hint for other examples are in your own question:


REALLY????? You and many others seem to be cursed with shallownes and selective indignation!!

I wish i can close this case, but it is a lost case.

you misunderstood me, when i say demonizing means people saying bad things about islam. i never said bad things. and i never said you did, what i am trying to point out is that a lot of people are demonizing islam and muslims because they do not understand islam. what i also trying to point out is that most of these people who say bad things about islam are the ones who do not know anything about islam at all. that is why it is easy for them to paint islam as violent because of a few poeple.

i have also pointed out that religious ignorance is very rampant. if i can make people read the quran so they can see the sense in the quran i'd do it,

im a deist by the way - i believe in god but i dont follow one religion in particular. i try to separate faith from culture. im not generalizing anything, what ive stated is merely my opinion. ive also agreed with " Because to appreciate the theology or ideology of a religion and its intent it has to be read within the context of the Whole of the Bible or the Quran and in relationship with the current practices of her adherents."


second: yopur quote me as saying "Here is where I disagree with you. You said,
In my opinion, I have tried to fault these Islamic Terrorists/Suicide Bombers/Islamic Jihadists to be able to say they have disobeyed the laws of Allah and Killed against his wishes. But I cannot find any fault in their actions. They have been in fact more orthodox and pious Muslims adhering closely to the teachings of the Quran, so much so, that they are actually better Muslims than the ordinary Muslim in the street. These Jihadist have not misunderstood Islam, they have understood it well.

Therefore, for us to understand the motivation of these Jihadists we have to first understand the ideology that drives them to make their ultimate sacrifice for Allah.

Why are we discussing Islam and Jihadism? because read this extract:

Then ask yourself, How many Christians are killing themselves for Jesus? Or how many Jews are blowing themselves up for Jehovah? Then you wonder why we talk so much about Islam? Use your logic and it may dawn upon you why."

i never said this in my post.

moving forward, let us then place the scriptures in its proper context. first let us ask ourselves "what was the culture and the the socio economic situation at the time of the writing of the scriptures? second. are the sociopolitical and economic situation back then /at the time of the scripture - the same as the sociopolitical and economic situation of today? third. if they are not similar - then does our religious practices still relevant in todays times? let us then limit our discussion to relationships between men. I hope to make this not as a discussion about faith but a discussion about religious practices....

Elle, I don't know about those imams you refered to, but as far as I know the priests and I assume you mean the Catholic Christians ones are pretty well versed in their faith.

To Del, Datumarco & Chutzpah I have spent all morning composing a reply, mostly to Del to share with you what I know about Islam and my concept of it. It required a lot of cross-references but you can check out all the sources. I have not invented a single verse. The reply is here:
Only Muslims can be innocent

pfff, so tiring you are. You simply dont know enough and are already too biased.
I dont know why you need to have this discussion on asiafinest.com.

First, its a forum about Asia. Islam in Indonesia is influenced by naturism and hinduism. Might wanna try http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism_verse.htm.

Secondly, your sources are from the internet. This subject is so hyped since september 11 and we have all kinds of people talking crap about it on the internet.

Thirdly, You use short sentences removed out of their context. Losing their meaning and subject to giving a complete other meaning to it. Its misunderstood by critics, muslims and non-muslims. The book is about peace and tolerance. Same as the bible. The bible tells about the bad antichrist that will be killed. God killed the whole world, except noah and his animal bunch and god murdered Job just to prove a point to Satan. These are just parts, that can be misunderstood. But the whole bible is about peace and a better earth.


You need to be honest with yourself now. You are obsessed by this hype. It even leads to the worst of them all, selective indignation. If you are religious, shame on you. If you aren't, look at the groups you belong too and see what they did.


I will tell you something about religion. People believe and follow a religion, because 99% of them desire something. Their human desires arent fullfilled. Religion gives them hope and that will be the substitute for their desires.
In these times, most of the people have a lot. They have a home, money, tv and a wife. Religion becomes less important for them. That is why there are so many atheist nowadays. History, on the other hand, didnt have much rich people in it. The rich already didnt care about religion or used it as a tool to gain power. The poor were very religious and did everything for god. You just need to look in your history book, just to see what is done under the name of god. From every religion. For example, the crusades. People did anything for wealth or retribution.

You can still see it today. Its funny to see how a Christian nation as the USA leads their people to war. The Muslims live in the poorest countries, as i explained before. They desire wealth and better conditions. That is used by politicians or any other charismatic person to make them do anything under the name of god. ..................



Anyways, i can tell on and on. But if you didnt figure it out yet, i might tell more.

You just need to open your eyes. Now you are looking at the Islam and you only wish to see what you want, blindly ignoring what is done under other religions (or other races, nations, companies or governments). Done by a few fundamental humans, not by that group completely.

Chutzpah, I refer to most Imams and teachers in most madrassas or Islamic schools. Do you know what Islamic education qualifies them to be appointed as Imams or Islamic teachers? If you do not know then I suggest you inquire because is is quite simple. Find out what curricula they follow or what level of knowledge they have to acquire, and roughly at what age when they qualify when they are considered mature enough to teach or preach about Islam. I think you will be surprised. Ask yourself, what qualifications are required to be a Shariah judge? How much additional education did he need to be entitled to know enough to judge for Allah?

It that is the level of intellect that is required to preach or teach Islam, it must be very elementary indeed. And this will reflect in the depth of understanding of the general public about Islam.

So ask yourself, where did you learn your Islam from? And to what level did you achieve? Would you consider that your knowledge places you to be a judge of other Muslims or non-Muslims? This is why the majority of Muslims have a very elementary view of Islam and believe that their view is right and that others must be wrong. Yes, there are true Islamic scholars as well who know their Islam, but they are not here on this forum.

What I am trying to say is that some Muslims feel that it is only they who know about Islam because they were born Muslims and that no one else has a right to question or express their views about Islam as I have in my other recent post. And I feel that that is on of the shortcomings of Islam, that it is not open for discussion freely without people getting irate.

Del, it would seem that any discussions between us is a waste of time. So I will not bother to reply to your posts since you are so bigoted.

blind, i tell you. You just see what you want to see. Blind of hate?

I see your topic is about what they see as innocent people. I would like to know where you got the sources from. You might want to take your source from an normal islamic site, as the site i posted.
again for you, darling:
http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism.htm
http://islam.about.com/od/terrorism/f/terrorism_verse.htm.
The qur'an doesnt teach you to kill non-muslims.

You read the whole Qur'an? You might wanna start with that first. Taking just small sentences out of it, doesnt show you the real meaning.

I want you to admit that they are human and all the other humans in under any group, (religion, nation, whtvr..) can do these things. And please check the words, selective indignation. It is the name of the disease you have.

Instead of telling lies and being paranoia about 300 million (the jihad pool) muslims behind your pc with your fat @$$, you might wanna go to trustworthy and unbiased site or asks experts about this. You sir, are indoctrinated.

Give me your nationality, ethnicity and religion. or just search them for yourself. Type in some crimes with it. Have fun getting disgusted of your own groups.


And fyi i am not muslim. I come from a multi cultural country and traveled all over the world. I met many muslims and not even one wanted to kill me. In fact, they all said to me we are all the same. The thing is you need to be a good person, no matter what your background is and then it will come allright.

The source of my information is
(1) Hadiths
(2) The Quran
(3) An investigation by elleX0

My sources are impeccable. Always has been and always will be. Go to (1) & (2) and get your authentic verification. I know the Quran better than most Muslims. Most Muslims don't even know where to find the Hadiths.

The Quran says this, but I do not know how you interpret it, but it seems straight forward to me:
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
This is generally known as the famous "Verse of the Sword" and it abrogates all the verses pre-Medina (if you know what that means)

Yes, Muslims are human beings, but there are two kinds of so called Muslims. The orthodox Muslim who swear by the 5 Pillars of Islam to the letter, and the "cultural Muslim" who looks like a Muslim, dresses like a Muslim, celebrates the festivities of a Muslim, but does not follow all the commands of Allah-he is actually a Muslim renegade, a "cultural Muslim," a non-Muslim from the religious definition of a Muslim. Yes there are millions of such "cultural Muslims" but they cannot be classified as Muslims even if they call themselves such. I do no select parts of Islam to discuss, I discuss the Whole of Islam, warts and all. It is "cultural Muslims who select what they like and leave out what they do not like.

I do not tell lies or have paranoia about Islam. I quote the source of my material and if they are lies then you should be able to correct my statements and show me the correct view and tell me I am WRONG, but so far I have not seen a single proof that what I have said is wrong. If you cannot prove I am wrong then I must be right! It is you who has been brainwashed, I have an open mind. Prove me wrong as I have said.

Let me say this, if you Avatar represents you, then you are a very mistaken and misinformed Dutch Indonesian. Please do not make a fool of yourself by showing us how little you know about Islam.

Let me post a short extract from another of my essays:

1. nice story bro. So what part will you take out of context this time? Its a story that happened in a specific time.
How do you even dare to use a site as a source where jewish people and muslims try to understand eachother and come closer. Lots of scholars work on this, and you think the Muslims just tell the Jews that if they dont convert that they will kill them? Are you out of your mind? Why you abuse sources and bend them to so much to proof your blind lies?
2. Funny your source here says something different. It says:
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
If you actually read it, then you will know its about Mecca. Idolaters, are the people of mecca, who worship the ka'aba. (cube) They were in a fight that time. Its about them and they wanted to kill their enemies. If you bring this to present time, muslims should kill all the worshippers of the cube. Their own people.
There are several verses in the bible which imply the same. Kill the ones that dont have respect god with their false worshipping. Here a link. This is just one of the translations, but all will talk about the same. : http://biblebrowser.com/hosea/10-5.htm . There were times and it still happens, Christians interpreted this wrongly too.
3. link not working bro. They aren't published, for a reason i guess.

Check your own sources next time



Just two groups. Sure these cultural group cannot me a problem. They see life itself as mabye more important than their religion, or as much. These orthodox are just strong in faith and there is nothing wrong with that. There are so much more groups, like extremists, who tend to be the problematic ones and interpret texts wrongly for their own good.

Just like in any other religion you have a lot of those in these times. No difference. For example, many christians refuse to accept others and equals and so wish to impose their beliefs, or kill in the process, if necessary.



What you want to proof here on this site? You seem to devote your life and open mind studying the evil Muslims, completely ignoring the situations those people live in. Why only them and why do you ignore that of the other groups?

Your essay, whic is probably copied from the first place, is about the pancasila. Its there so all the main religions will accept eachother and it wont get more diverse. If there were more, problems can arise. Its just for the sake it wont happen. Which is a good political tool.

I want you to debate on a scholar site or something. Debate this guy maybe to start with. watch his movie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vefNFczjR4w

[quote name='DEL' date='Feb 21 2011, 05:48 PM' post='4725048']

Groeten/Salute ,u r very very wise indeed.

FIRST, I AM NOT YOUR BRO! - Stop using that detestable term of common familiarity.

Whether in context or not it is what message it conveys to the 21st century Jihadists that matters. And it sure applies to their ideology of today. Yes, Muhammad also was born a long time ago. In fact in 570 CE (1441 years ago)does that mean his words do not apply and Muslims do not listen to him any longer and that his stories are obsolete and only applies to 7th century bedouins? You must me kidding. Stop using "dualism" if you know what that means.

I am a free thinker and not a Muslim, so I read Islamic, non-Islamic, sources for opinions about Islam. I am not censored by my god thus I am able to study from any source I choose. Then I make up my own mind as to who is right. Any semitic source is as good as a source from a gentile or an infidel so long as it is logical.

QUOTE

and you think the Muslims just tell the Jews that if they dont convert that they will kill them?

That is NOT WHAT I THINK. It is what Islamic Text has said in THE QURAN/Bukhari (Which You may HAVE CONVENIENTLY FORGOTTEN):

Bukhari:V4B52N176 "Allah's Apostle said, 'You Muslims will fight the Jews till some of them hide behind stones. The stones will betray them saying, "O Abdullah (slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him."

Bukhari:V4B52N177 "Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."

Why do you think the Prophet Muhammad said that if he did not mean it? You can see, I authenticate everything I have said from Islamic religious text and not hearsay.




My quote for 9:5 came from a source that highlighted "Fighting" verses in the Islamic text that has all the following quotes as well:

QUOTE

Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."
Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."
Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"
Qur'an:9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."
Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."
Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."
Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."
Ishaq:326 "Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth."
Bukhari:V4B52N63 "A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, 'Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?' The Prophet said, 'Embrace Islam first and then fight.' So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, 'A Little work, but a great reward.'"
Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"
Muslim:C34B20N4668 "The Messenger said: 'Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights."

The significance or meaning of the condensed quote 9:5 above does not change its meaning as I have checked with 5 other versions of that verse displayed for you convenience that I do not rely on just one distorted interpretation:

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (Abdullah Yusufali translation)

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Personally I cannot see any distortion of the essence of the meaning of "slaying Pagans (non-Mslims) and for your information it also happens to include Jews as well.

Again we differ. You said:

QUOTE

you will know its about Mecca. Idolaters, are the people of mecca, who worship the ka'aba. (cube) They were in a fight that time. Its about them and they wanted to kill their enemies. If you bring this to present time, muslims should kill all the worshippers of the cube. Their own people.
3. link not working bro.

Quran 9:5 was written after Medina, not Mecca. Quran 9:5 abrogated all previous peaceful or benign verses in the Quran. Study "Abrogation."

Yes, the idolators of Mecca wanted to kill Muhammad for his new religion. Yes, he was from the Quraishi tribe who were worshippers of the Moon God, Allah. Yes his own tribe wanted to kill him because he tried to deceive them by worshipping the pagan gods with the hope of wining them over, hence the Satanic verses. But Idolators mean all non-Muslims. So Muhammad adopted the name Allah from the Qaraishi's Moon god. That is show he tried to fool his own people into following him, by treachery.

It looks like you may know something about the early Sira but it is the distorted view of it.

Yes, link 3 has not been made public yet by me. I will some time later.

its all a matter of interpretation....not just on a personal level, theres even different branches of the religion, denominations, schools of taught..etc


i've once went to a Christian school, there we've visited the church & read the bible everyday; in multiple languages


& one could interpret these words & commands in the Holy Bible like this....



Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)



Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)



Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)



Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)



God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)



Kill Men, Women, and Children

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)



God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)



Kill Old Men and Young Women

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)



God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)



More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

More of Samson's Murders

(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an @$$; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)



Peter Kills Two People

There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)



Mass Murder

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)



You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)



The Danites Kill the Next Town

But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)



God Kills Some More

Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)



God Promises More Killing

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)



The Angel of Death

My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)



Destruction of Ai

Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.

Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.

Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.

When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)



Killing at Jericho

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)



God Kills an Extended Family

"You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)



Mass Murder

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)



The Angel of Death

That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)



Kill Your Neighbors

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)



Kill the Family of Sinners

And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)



Kill Followers of Other Religions

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)



Murder

At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)



Kill All of Babylon

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)





more that half of the world is either muslim or christian.. if they're all really out to kill each other & people of other religions.. i'm surprised we're still here typing

Okay, lets start over and debate like grown-ups. I am sorry if i started it, but i just picked up the already present tone. I won't call you bro. whtvr.

This is all about how YOU interpret it and how you want to see it. But your opinion is quite understandable in these times. You and your essays are just a product of these times fears.
You just bought in to today's hype of looking for the enemy of the world in the islam community. You might wanna think about who made this hype and what they did themselves to the islam world.
Thanks to 9/11 you seem to believe this. But it happens from all the groups. Christians, jews and most other religions are all dogmatic. They are right! the rest is wrong. The rest will need to convert or die.
You might wanna look up what happened under the name of god. Its quite terrible. Their books also talk about killing the non-believers. But just as with the koran, its about specific times.
It happens with all religions and nations. IF you lived in Columbia and you see foreign companies taking your ground and money, you might have joined the Farc. You would have hated the foreign companies and the governments. If your family was murdered by the Farc, you will see the Farc as the devils of the earth. You will do everything to fight for yourself and defend others against them. You will use anything to justify your goals. If you lived in the colonial times or middle ages, oh, you could have hated those christian dogs that did terrible things under the name of god. Priests sprankled bombs in the second world war in the name of god, to kill the infidels. President Bush used god and told the christian americans the USA need to invade Irak.
But with religion, people misuse the verses of their book, to justify their selfish goals. IF you read the Koran, you will know it advocates peace, but you also need to defend yourself.




See, here is your problem. You look for things about fighting, and killing infidels. You look for it on the web. Talking about selective indignation, this is a prime example. Try to look for the verses that talk about peace and tolerate others. Why dont you look up those?
Almost all the scholars say the book teaches about peace. The verses you come up with, are about a situation in a specific time. About wartime, and they needed to act in self defense.
I will ask you again, why you bring this discussion to this forum and why not to those scholars? Are you afraid you will lose to them.? You say we dont know nothing about islam here in this forum, why not bring it up and look for a challenge.
I really dont understand why you go to people that believe in peace and tolerance or eachother religion and tell them they should kill all the infidels, because that is what YOU believe the Koran says. Is it not that you want that we have peace on this world? Why you try to convince muslims that believe in peace should seek war? The only thing you do right now is feeding the hatred of people and only make it worse. Your attitude is so wrong and you need to stop before it gets to biased.



First of all, you can already see there are many translations. To translate is very hard, especially from arabic. The Arabic language is one of the most difficult languages in the world. It has so much more words than English. Even English has many words with different meanings. This will leads to distortion and that the receiver will understand the message differently then it was meant to be. Look at the word Pagans for example. You think it means outsiders/ non-muslims, while it can also mean, witches, shamanists, witches, idolaters, philosophers, druids or false worshippers. You could have understood this wrongly.

Instead of wasting your life in criticizing one religion, you might want to study human psychology, how poeple manipulate other people to fight for their goals and what happened on Arab ground. Maybe you will understand why different things are done and that religion is used as a tool for human desires. As it is now, in the West, Islam is just a scapegoat to justify Western actions, for power and greed. Viceversa, Isreal and the actions of the Usa and western corporations might give muslims the idea that they need to defend them selves. Its all up to their interpretation.

filipinoy, I believe I mentioned this before that the Bible is "man's interpretation of the word of God" and therefore can be a matter of interpretation and that is what has happened over 3300 years ago. The same applies to Jesus (2011 years ago), but Muhammad has claimed the the Quran contains the "literal word of Allah" and thus is immutable. All branches of Islam use the same Quran and accept that it contains the literal word of Allah.
Also because the "gates of Ijtihad" were closed in the 10th century any further discussions or interpretations of the Quran are forbidden.

QUOTE

Ijtihad is mainly associated with the Shi'a Muslim Jafari school of jurisprudence. Western scholars such as Joseph Schacht accepted the notion that the "gates of ijtihad" were "closed" in the 10th century in Sunni fiqh, meaning that ijtihad is not practiced in Sunni Islam anymore.

There in lies the differences.

thx for the reply





if it's literal as you said..which is the exact or primary meaning of the words used, then theres no need to explain their meanings, right?

i'm wondering..like many translation errors in the bible..it's almost impossible to exactly translate something into another language.. you as an expert.. i'm guessing you also speak Arabic?.. which is the only way to understand the original version of the book...

& btw do you think saying "all branches of Islam" is the same as saying "all Muslims"?

So the bible is left for interpretation and your interpretation of the koran is the only right one? The koran are the literal words of god, allah.

Firstly, the writer of the koran, a human, had a prophetic experience. He received everything from got and produced the koran. The words are probably divine, but not the literal words from god. There is no way the writer wrote down the exact words of god. Things can get lost in translation. The writers of the bible also had prophetic experiences. The apostles followed jesus and wrote down everything he did and say. Jesus is the son of god or a part of the god-trinity. In either way, he speaks for/is god. You could say, these are the literal words of god too. Revelations, prophetic experience. David, guided by god. moses, guided by god. noah, guided by god.
Secondly, you can not contain a book for thousands of years. It needs to be rewritten and rewritten. New words are developed and old words are forgotten. Ofcourse it is mutable.

The koran says in parts that you should not kill, keep the peace and tolerate other religions.
In other parts it says that you need to kill your enemies or convert them(leaving out that it was for a specific historic event and specific time).

Its left to say, these are contradictions from eachother. How can you interpret this? Is there only one way? yes and no? maybe?
To me it sounds there are more ways to interpret this. As you already found out by our discussions.

If you tell me there are more ways you can interpret the bible and just one for the koran and that is your way, you kinda talk nonsense.


Furthermore, i would like to know your opinion in the recent developments in the Arabic countries, like libya and egypt. Muslim brothers killing eachother. Muslim Tribes killing other tribes. For a religion that should fight non-muslims (according to you), they kinda kill too much of their own. Kinda failure i must say if that was really the secret superduperplan of muhammed. Humans, no matter what their religion, race or nation, stay humans and do the stupid things we do.

I know the Quran was written in Arabic. But as you may have noticed, I have access to 5 or 6 versions of the English translations, so I hope all those translators are not stupid people who cannot find an equivalent meaning in English from the Arabic. I do not rely on one translation. Remember it is translation and not interpretation.

I also said that there is only One Allah, and One Quran, and One Islam and One Hadith. I hope you understand what that means. The different sect of Muslims are not equivalent to the different denominations as in the Christian faith where their doctrines can differ. In Islam, the Islamic doctrine is the same, even if the practice may deviate. If the interpretation is different in Islam, like the Ahmadiyyas, they will be cast out of Islam and declared non-Muslins.

yeah i was just wondering with the translations(nothing to do with the other religious standpoints discussed here...)..& how experts cope with this..i know there are real experts on the old & new testaments usually know several languages of the Mediterranean .. in the bible many words don't have an exact equivalent in Filipino vocabulary (being a completely different language) thus no matter how many times it was translated..it's still not exact.. i've also seen translations with just a few different words, & it completely altered the entire thing from the other.

who declares them? all christian denominations declares themselves as the "one true version of Christianity"... meaning any other is false.

to Christians (as far as the Vatican is concerned) The Holy Bible is also (doesn't matter if says "jesus said" or "God said" ) "the word of the Lord" & this line is usually said after a reading a context from the bible. since God is Lord, Jesus is Lord & The Holy Spirit is Lord.. all the same thing...

religion could be very complicated as sometimes you have to form a spiritual bond in order to completely experience & understood it)... i think lines the in books that contradicts each other as one would call it... could be understood by reading the other lines & you may or may not find out(similar to the bible lines i posted earlier)


anyways one can't really completely judge another by his/her religion.. i've even come across Satanics & such... from a human standpoint.. religion bias set aside.. most of them i would say are ordinary people

& like DEL said about the current mid-east situation... i personally think those killings that happened...with or without religion there would still be killings.. humans(usually forming in groups) had been killing other humans & other creatures for hundreds of thousands of years

I copy and paste what I have posted in the TRUE ISLAM-Qaradawi's Islam : http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...p;#entry4725750 in order to refute the quoting of Biblical verses without proper comprehension and context.

I have included the full text of the Biblical references as listed above. It is not helpful and leading only to further confusion to quote Biblical references without the slightest comprehension of the Holy scriptures as a whole. Or worst to put personal judgment (interpretation) on the holy scriptures. The Biblical verses are taken from the on line Catholic Bible from the New Advent Catholic encyclopedia site - http://www.newadvent.org/bible/ I will refrain from comparing Christianity to Islam even though one predates the other by almost 700 years. My comment is highlighted in blue

The Old Testament

Deuteronomy 13:13-19:
2 If there rise in the midst of you a prophet or one that says he has dreamed a dream, and he foretell a sign and a wonder, 3 and that come to pass which he spoke, and he say to you: Let us go and follow strange gods, which you know not, and let us serve them: 4 You shall not hear the words of that prophet or dreamer: for the Lord your God tries you, that it may appear whether you love him with all your heart, and with all your soul, or not. 5 Follow the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and hear his voice: him you shall serve, and to him you shall cleave. 6 And that prophet or forger of dreams shall be slain: because he spoke to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you from the house of bondage: to make you go out of the way, which the Lord your God commanded you: and you shall take away the evil out of the midst of you. 7 If your brother the son of your mother, or your son, or daughter, or your wife that is in your bosom, or your friend, whom you love as your own soul, would persuade you secretly, saying: Let us go, and serve strange gods, which you know not, nor your fathers, 8 of all the nations round about, that are near or afar off, from one end of the earth to the other, 9 consent not to him, hear him not, neither let your eye spare him to pity and conceal him, 10 but you shall presently put him to death. Let your hand be first upon him, and afterwards the hands of all the people. 11 With stones shall he be stoned to death: because he would have withdrawn you from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage: 12 That all Israel hearing may fear, and may do no more anything like this.and of Egypt, and redeemed you from the house of bondage: to make you go out of the way, which the Lord your God commanded you: and you shall take away the evil out of the midst of you. 7 If your brother the son of your mother, or your son, or daughter, or your wife that is in your bosom, or your friend, whom you love as your own soul, would persuade you secretly, saying: Let us go, and serve strange gods, which you know not, nor your fathers, 8 of all the nations round about, that are near or afar off, from one end of the earth to the other, 9 consent not to him, hear him not, neither let your eye spare him to pity and conceal him, 10 but you shall presently put him to death. Let your hand be first upon him, and afterwards the hands of all the people. 11 With stones shall he be stoned to death: because he would have withdrawn you from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage: 12 That all Israel hearing may fear, and may do no more anything like this.

13 If in one of your cities, which the Lord your God shall give you to dwell in, you hear some say: 14 Children of Belial have gone out of the midst of you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, and have said: Let us go, and serve strange gods which you know not: 15 Inquire carefully and diligently, the truth of the thing by looking well into it, and if you find that which is said to be certain, and that this abomination has been really committed, 16 you shall forthwith kill the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, and shall destroy it and all things that are in it, even the cattle. 17 And all the household goods that are there, you shall gather together in the midst of the streets thereof, and shall burn them with the city itself, so as to consume all for the Lord your God, and that it be a heap for ever: it shall be built no more. 18 And there shall nothing of that anathema stick to your hand: that the Lord may turn from the wrath of his fury, and may have mercy on you, and multiply you as he swore to your fathers, 19 when you shall hear the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his precepts, which I command you this day, that you may do what is pleasing in the sight of the Lord your God.

Deuteronomy 17:
You shall not sacrifice to the Lord your God a sheep, or an ox, wherein there is blemish, or any fault: for that is an abomination to the Lord your God. 2 When there shall be found among you within any of your gates, which the Lord your God shall give you, man or woman that do evil in the sight of the Lord your God, and transgress his covenant, 3 so as to go and serve strange gods, and adore them, the sun and the moon, and all the host of heaven, which I have not commanded: 4 And this is told you, and hearing it you have inquired diligently, and found it to be true, and that the abomination is committed in Israel: 5 You shall bring forth the man or the woman, who have committed that most wicked thing, to the gates of your city, and they shall be stoned. 6 By the mouth of two or three witnesses shall he die that is to be slain. Let no man be put to death, when only one bears witness against him. 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to kill him, and afterwards the hands of the rest of the people: that you may take away the evil out of the midst of you.

8 If you perceive that there be among you a hard and doubtful matter in judgment between blood and blood, cause and cause, leprosy and leprosy: and you see that the words of the judges within your gates do vary: arise, and go up to the place, which the Lord your God shall choose. 9 And you shall come to the priests of the Levitical race, and to the judge, that shall be at that time: and you shall ask of them, and they shall show you the truth of the judgment. 10 And you shall do whatsoever they shall say, that preside in the place, which the Lord shall choose, and what they shall teach you, 11 according to his law; and you shall follow their sentence: neither shall you decline to the right hand nor to the left hand. 12 But he that will be proud, and refuse to obey the commandment of the priest, who ministers at that time to the Lord your God, and the decree of the judge, that man shall die, and you shall take away the evil from Israel: 13 And all the people hearing it shall fear, that no one afterwards swell with pride.

2 Chronicles 15:12-13
And the spirit of God came upon Azarias the son of Oded, 2 and he went out to meet Asa, and said to him: Hear me, Asa, and all Juda and Benjamin: The Lord is with you, because you have been with him. If you seek him, you shall find: but if you forsake him, he will forsake you. 3 And many days shall pass in Israel, without the true God, and without a priest a teacher, and without the law. 4 And when in their distress they shall return to the Lord the God of Israel, and shall seek him, they shall find him. 5 At that time there shall be no peace to him that goes out and comes in, but terrors on every side among all the inhabitants of the earth. 6 For nation shall fight against nation, and city against city, for the Lord will trouble them with all distress. 7 Do you therefore take courage, and let not your hands be weakened: for there shall be a reward for your work. 8 And when Asa had heard the words, and the prophecy of Azarias the son of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and took away the idols out of all the land of Juda, and out of Benjamin, and out of the cities of mount Ephraim, which he had taken, and he dedicated the altar of the Lord, which was before the porch of the Lord. 9 And he gathered together all Juda and Benjamin, and the strangers with them of Ephraim, and Manasses, and Simeon: for many had come over to him out of Israel, seeing that the Lord his God was with him. 10 And when they had come to Jerusalem in the third month, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa, 11 they sacrificed to the Lord in that day of the spoils, and of the prey, that they had brought, seven hundred oxen, and seven thousand rams. 12 And he went in to confirm as usual the covenant, that they should seek the Lord the God of their fathers with all their heart, and with all their soul. 13 And if any one, said he, seek not the Lord the God of Israel, let him die, whether little or great, man or woman. 14 And they swore to the Lord with a loud voice with joyful shouting, and with sound of trumpet, and sound of cornets, 15 all that were in Juda with a curse: for with all their heart they swore, and with all their will they sought him, and they found him, and the Lord gave them rest round about. 16 Moreover Maacha the mother of King Asa he deposed from the royal authority, because she had made in a grove an idol of Priapus: and he entirely destroyed it, and breaking it into pieces, burnt it at the torrent Cedron. 17 But high places were left in Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days. 18 And the things which his father had vowed, and he himself had vowed, he brought into the house of the Lord, gold and silver, and vessels of divers uses. 19 And there was no war unto the five and thirtieth year of the kingdom of Asa.

Zechariah 13
In that day there shall be a fountain open to the house of David, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem: for the washing of the sinner, and of the unclean woman. 2 And it shall come to pass in that day, says the Lord of hosts, that I will destroy the names of idols out of the earth, and they shall be remembered no more: and I will take away the false prophets, and the unclean spirit out of the earth. 3 And it shall come to pass, that when any man shall prophesy any more, his father and his mother that brought him into the world, shall say to him: You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord. And his father, and his mother, his parents, shall thrust him through, when he shall prophesy. 4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be confounded, every one by his own vision, when he shall prophesy, neither shall they be clad with a garment of sackcloth, to deceive: 5 But he shall say: I am no prophet, I am a husbandman: for Adam is my example from my youth. 6 And they shall say to him: What are these wounds in the midst of your hands? And he shall say: With these I was wounded in the house of them that loved me

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that cleaves to me, says the Lord of hosts: strike the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn my hand to the little ones. 8 And there shall be in all the earth, says the Lord, two parts in it shall be scattered, and shall perish: but the third part shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say: You are my people: and they shall say: The Lord is my God

Numbers 25
And Israel at that time abode in Settim, and the people committed fornication with the daughters of Moab, 2 who called them to their sacrifices. And they ate of them, and adored their gods. 3 And Israel was initiated to Beelphegor: upon which the Lord being angry, 4 said to Moses: Take all the princes of the people, and hang them up on gibbets against the sun: that my fury may be turned away from Israel. 5 And Moses said to the judges of Israel: Let every man kill his neighbours, that have been initiated to Beelphegor. 6 And behold one of the children of Israel went in before his brethren to a harlot of Madian, in the sight of Moses and of all the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle.

Understanding the tradition and history of the period these verses (the Old Testament) were written is part and parcel of understanding the Bible. It also underscores the importance of the New Testament which forms the whole canon of the Bible.

None of the above verses which are from the Old Testament instruct God's people to kill followers of other faiths. It does however forbid the worship of other gods apart from God - Yahweh and the wrath of God comes to those who try to preach idols worship amongst His people. The method of punishment as abhorrent as it is to us now was part of the tradition of the period so it must be read and understood within that context alone. Stoning to death though it is still practiced in Islam today was forbidden by Christ as in John 8:1-11, 'let him without sin cast the first stone..' for the according to Christian belief, only God has the right to judge us.

John 8:1-11
And Jesus went unto mount Olivet. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple: and all the people came to him. And sitting down he taught them. 3 And the scribes and Pharisees bring unto him a woman taken in adultery: and they set her in the midst, 4 and said to him: Master, this woman was even now taken in adultery. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us to stone such a one. But what do you say? 6 And this they said tempting him, that they might accuse him. But Jesus bowing himself down, wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again stooping down, he wrote on the ground. 9 But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused you? Has no man condemned you? 11 Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn you. Go, and now sin no more

Examples are abound in the Bible where Christ teaches mercy and love even to our enemy. Below I have posted example where Christ said he didn't come to abolish the law but to make it perfect and fulfill the law. And any capital punishment as inscribed in the law of Moses - the Jewish laws were made perfect and in favour of mercy, love and compassion by Jesus Christ. See Matthew 5 below.

It must be noted that through out the 20th century, Christians no longer kill in the name of their God or religion as do the Muslims. The aggressors can be of the Christian faith, but the aggression was done for other reasons, it is never done in the name of their religion and God. Like wise it is WRONG to refer to countries such as the US or France etc as Christian countries, for these are all secular states with the majority Christian populace. So the US aggression (which is debatable) in Iraq or Afghanistan is purely political/economical and has nothing to do with Christianity the religion.

New Testament

Matthew 5:17-37 or 5:20-22a, 27-28, 33-34a, 37
Jesus said to his disciples:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.
I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away,
not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter
will pass from the law,
until all things have taken place.
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments
and teaches others to do so
will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments
will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses
that of the scribes and Pharisees,
you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors,
You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.
But I say to you,
whoever is angry with brother
will be liable to judgment;
and whoever says to brother, ‘Raqa,’
will be answerable to the Sanhedrin;
and whoever says, ‘You fool,’
will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar,
and there recall that your brother
has anything against you,
leave your gift there at the altar,
go first and be reconciled with your brother,
and then come and offer your gift.
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court.
Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge,
and the judge will hand you over to the guard,
and you will be thrown into prison.
Amen, I say to you,
you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
“You have heard that it was said,
You shall not commit adultery.
But I say to you,
everyone who looks at a woman with lust
has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
If your right eye causes you to sin,
tear it out and throw it away.
It is better for you to lose one of your members
than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.
And if your right hand causes you to sin,
cut it off and throw it away.
It is better for you to lose one of your members
than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.
“It was also said,
Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.
But I say to you,
whoever divorces his wife - unless the marriage is unlawful -
causes her to commit adultery,
and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
“Again you have heard that it was said to your ancestors,
Do not take a false oath,
but make good to the Lord all that you vow.
But I say to you, do not swear at all;
not by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
nor by the earth, for it is his footstool;
nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Do not swear by your head,
for you cannot make a single hair white or black.
Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,' and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’
Anything more is from the evil one.”

or

Jesus said to his disciples:
“I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses
that of the scribes and Pharisees,
you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors,
You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.
But I say to you,
whoever is angry with brother
will be liable to judgment.
“You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.
But I say to you,
everyone who looks at a woman with lust
has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
“Again you have heard that it was said to your ancestors,
Do not take a false oath,
but make good to the Lord all that you vow.
But I say to you, do not swear at all.
Let your ‘Yes’ mean ‘Yes,’and your ‘No’ mean ‘No.’
Anything more is from the evil one.”

Matthew 5:38-48
Jesus said to his disciples:
“You have heard that it was said,
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil.
When someone strikes you on your right cheek,
turn the other one as well.
If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic,
hand over your cloak as well.
Should anyone press you into service for one mile,
go for two miles.
Give to the one who asks of you,
and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.
“You have heard that it was said,
You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
But I say to you, love your enemies
and pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your heavenly Father,
for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good,
and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have?
Do not the tax collectors do the same?
And if you greet your brothers only,
what is unusual about that?
Do not the pagans do the same?
So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Hi Elle, the canon of the Bible (the holy scriptures) was written by men but inspired by God. As it was written by men it contains many human 'failings' as human invariable are. However we also believe that the inspired word that is the Bible is also infallible ONLY in the matter of doctrine and faith as WHAT God revealed to us through His prophets and His one and only begotten Son - Jesus Christ. Private judgment is discouraged by the Church as this will lead to various personal interpretations thus resulting in various denominations, fragmenting the Body of Christ - His Church as in the case of Protestantism. The Didache or the teaching of the Apostles with regard to the interpretation of the holy scriptures is used by the Church to base Her teaching, doctrines, dogmas amongst others. This Didache is kept within the Vatican library in Rome.




I agree, from I have read and understand, the Koran is the literal word of Allah (God) and each Muslim must adheres to every word contains within, it governs every aspect of a Muslim's life, in fact it is a keen more to a philosophy. Interestingly Islam claims it is a primordial faith - that is it predates any other faith including Judaism and Christianity. Islam teaches that all the Jewish prophets were Muslim, including the Christ.

1. Every Christian denomination declares to have the truth. I am not disputing this, however only the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has the fullness of the truth. According to the holy scriptures and tradition, the Church must be One as the same through out the world and not fragmented, it must be Holy, it must be Apostolic as having Apostolic succession from St Peter onwards to the current Pope Benedict XVI, and it must be Catholic (Greek -Katolikas) means universal as being the same everywhere. And only then you can claim to be a true Church as founded by Christ. And only one Church can lay claim to these, it is the Catholic Church, for it has not change in over 2010 years, not Her laws nor Her tradition. As Catholic you can attend any Catholic Church across the world, you will find the same ritual and teaching everytime.

2. The reason for saying "the word of the Lord" : there are three readings in every Mass. The first two are taken from either the Old testament, Act or the Epistles of St Paul. The third is always taken from the Gospel (Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) These ARE the word of God our Lord, as noted by St John in John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. The Word here refers to the Christ, as He is the Word that dwelt amongst us, ie. God took human flesh and lived among us, see John 1:14 - 14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. This also explains why at the beginning of every Gospel reading, "the Lord is with you (Dominus vobiscum)" is uttered by the reader who is either a priest or a deacon because it signifies and acknowledges the very present of God as the Word to be read and listened to by the faithfuls.

Biblical source: http://www.newadvent.org/bible/joh001.htm