China and Mongolia are now strategic partners

China is partners with alot of countries, even the ones where the hatred is mutually extreme.

There's no reason why yellow brothers shouldn't look out for eachother

sure

strategic in what way? military? economic? resources?

^ they are now drinking partners

^乾杯!!

Mongolians conquered and ravaged China many times which is why 30% of all Chinese men are related to Genghis Khan. Blood is thicker than water. We cannot allow ourselves to be manipulated by the west while we sabatage ourselves with hatred for fellow Asians.

^ They killed half the population of China.

in absolute terms i think america killed more chinese. remember they witheld shipments of grain during mao's famine?
anyway, mongols are not a threat now. they can be partners. past is past.

LOL WTF! Where do you get your stats from? I'm willing to bet that not even 1% of China's male population is related to Temujin.

Considering how close Mongolia is to China and the fact that they ruled China for so long - it makes perfect sense that most of Khans descendents are in Mongolia and China. Just look at a map! China is the western-most East Asian country.

Japan is the eastern-most Asian country and probably has the least number of Khan descendents.

Okay,your credibility level just dropped to zero with this commend.

Do you deny geography? Geography has a huge role in how people look. Even Northern europeans look different from southern europeans. Western Asians look different from Eastern Asians.

Is Japan not east of China?

Geography tells you 30% of chinese are related to Genghis Khan?Also,yuan dynasty only lasted for 89 years, and at that time han chinese developed a custom called "殺頭胎"--kill the first-born.I dont think you have any idea of how serious chinese are about protecting our bloodline.

According to the BBC documentary, from each conquests of China, Genghis Khan took a high-born Chinese wife. See the link below. The scene begins with the Mongols raiding a Chinese village, the scene after that is self-evident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEUBZ76oVDI#t=2m57s

Yeah because we know a BBC documentary is the final word on the topic and we also know that this documentary is proof that 30% of Chinese males (which would be 190 million Chinese men assuming that the total male population of China is 650 million and 30% of that would give us 190 million men. Oh and why is it just limited to males? Are Chinese females somehow taken out of the genetic equation? LOL)

The Mongols ruled in China for a total of 89 years and strictly forbade intermarriage. After they were ousted from power, they returned to the steppes and the Ming did everything in their power to erase Mongol influence.

Genghis's descendants are alive and well in Outer Mongolia and Inner Mongolia, not the hundreds of the millions of Han Chinese. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are some Han Chinese that possibly descended from him or Mongols from that era but that's a far cry from asserting a huge portion of the entire population is.

According to most sources (At least those who actually care), Temujin has a total of 16 million descendants today and that includes progeny located in Mongolia, China, Russia, Iran, Korea, Afghanistan, Central Asia. That hardly scratches the surface for China's population, in fact even if all 16 million of them were modern day Chinese (Which they aren't as already shown that the descendants are spread throughout the modern day locations of what was their large empire), it'd still be a minor blip.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20..._genghis_2.html

Due to Han colonization of Inner Mongolia, it's probably much more likely that ethnic Mongols have Han blood or at least that will be the case in the future.

China borders 14 different countries today, what's your point?



89 years is long?

And how does being neighbors with one another and being under someone's rule for less than a century equate to having 30% of all modern day males of the once ruled country being genetically related to one single man? You do realize that's 190 million men today right? Where did you learn your math as well as your history for that matter?




Having descendants in those countries is one thing, asserting that a huge chunk of the population is descended from them is another story.



What does this have to do with your genetic argument?



Seeing as how Japan wasn't ruled the Mongols, no $hit.

Btw anyone with sufficient historical knowledge should know that Genghis Khan never managed to reach Sung dynasty during his liftime, while all he has accomplished was to conquer Jin dynasty and Xixia, while those states/people were already assimiliated into chinese culture, the "high born" "Chinese" wives Genghis Khan took there were more likely from sinofied Jurchen or Tangut/Qiang than Han ethnic group, also both Genghis Khan and his Empire despise people like Han who would rather create things than to fight and destroy, there were few if any han chinese in Jin or Xixia could be regarded as "high born" during that time, things changed a bit not until the grandson of Genghis Khan the kubilai khan also know as the founder of yuan dynasty, who finally managed to beat and conquer Sung dynasty long after the death of his grandfather.

Though under the influence of his teacher and advisers who were mostly Han or sinofied people from the late Jin dynasty kubilai khan or ShiZu emperor of yuan shall adopt chinese system/culture including confucianism, while he realize the necessity of adopting the chinese way in order to uphold his dynasty he feared the sinofication of mongols into chinese therefore he has kept the four class system which made han chinese lowest group, however the results of his actions were on the one hand still the inevitable sinofication of mongols within yuan dynasty as it was nessercary from them to rule and enjoy their life in a society of higher culture than their own, the following up is breakup of trust between kubilais yuan dynasty with other parts of mongolian empire which non less lead to wars and conflicts against eachother in the same manner as the "traditional" chinese empire(yuan dynasty) vs nomadic babarians("true" mongols from the steppe) On the other hand the four class system and other discriminations against han people during yuan dynasty further fueled discontent of han citizens who in turn brought yuan dynasty down a few decades after its founding.

Basically kubilai khan failed in both of his goals of upholding his empire and keep mongols from sinofication, if yuan dynasty had abolished discriminative policy against han citizens and fully embraced chinese way/culture in all aspects yuan empire might have lasted through the centuries, or if he had choosen even more harsh rule, distinctivesness between mongols/chinese refusing all things chinese and punish any "corrupted/sinofied" mongols in china accordingly, the mongol rule in china might be sealed even sooner than they did, but maybe there would be far fewer mongolian territories/people being "swallowed up" by china without a real fight.

He said China is the westernmost East Asian country.
Then he said Japan is the easternmost Asian country.

So yes, he is being consistent.

Jurchen nobles frequently married Han brides during Jurchen Jin rule. So, even if some highborn weren't Han, they were at least partially Han by the time of Genghis Khan's conquest.

No such thing as Han anymore. Whatever was left by the Han dynasty is just a mixture of the previous dynasties before. The original Chinese people were probably raped by the evenks, then mongols, then Han, then Manchu, etc...lol

That's why you see Han people who are pale as snow and Han people dark as clay.

Wow. That's a lot of ownage. Then what's the point of defending against foreigners? Just surrender to the next invaders, and let these invaders add to the genetic mix.

Haha that's basically how China was formed and why it's so large today. Chinese are not known for conquering but just "going with it". As Bruce Lee would say, "like water. It shifts and adapts to any form".

Than according to you there are no Mongolians no Japanese no anything everybody is a mix so we should all just call ourselves humans. Actually maybe not some might be mixed with neanderthals or a more primitive form of modern homo-sapiens. I think we should just call each other animals then.

You sure you are not mixing up something here?Through out the history in China people like Mongols, Jurchen or late Manchurians noble or ruling class would always do all they could NOT to intermarry with Han people, they were those who fear to mix up their blood the most, during the non han dynasties in china it was the normal or lowborn class from the majority of their population who would intermarry with han people, even then their numbers were so small that they wouldnt have any significant impact on the "Han blood" after 2 or 3 generations. So unless Genghis Khan tried his luck with some peasants or ordinary merchants wives during his conquests of "north" China ( those regions which were not ruled by han in the first place), he would probably not able to catch many highborn Chinese wives who are of han or even at least partially Han. Btw he certainly took many chinese princesses and noble women from Jin, Xixia or even the remnants of the Liao dynasties, but you can be certain that those womens are 100% Jurchen, Tanguts or Khitans and 0% Han.

Btw during the time when non han managed to set up their dynasties in china (yuan and qing ruled the whole while liao, jin, xixia and others only ruled some regions) there was probably only ONE case where the ruler married a han wive and made the child his successor, the Kangxi emperor of qing dynasty whos mother was a Han noble which made him half han, ironically he was probably the greatest "non han" emperor for china and accomplished far more than any of the yuan/qing/jin/liao/xixia rulers in the regard of expanding and consolidating the empire. Qing dynasty was able to last thoughout centuries no less thanks to his accomplishments.

Plus the Han were so numerous anyways that whatever mixtures that occurred during this period is going to be insignificant, like drying to pick out spilled beer in a lake. The Han Chinese pretty much inundated any neighbors that chose to make contact with her given a few exceptions.

Jurchen nobles frequently married with Han, so the highborn wives were half Han, if not full Han.

“With Jurchen and Chinese frequently marrying each other, the rulers legalized intermarriage in 1191”

“Many married Hans, although the ban on Jurchen nobles marrying Hans was not lifted until 1191.”

Sources:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2EtCTP7v8...han&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Dynasty_%...E2%80%931234%29

Most han people in the northern region during that time were mostly prohibited from reaching higher social position, though not as bad as during the mongolian rules, the jurchen/tanguts did their part too in the suppressing (even though they were in the process of being sinofied), so where did those "hight born" han chinese come from? And if there was a ban it would mean that legal marriage was NOT possible, secret "wives" or concubines would be considered as dishonorable ever since the ancient time, and do you seriously believe that significant part of noble/ruling class in any society would took someone from far lower social class (most of han people were still being suppressed during that time) as their honorable wives(or husbands)? Of course things were changing with ongoing sinofication of the ruling class hence the need to lift the ban in 1191, too bad the mongolian pressure would come in 1215 by then which the jurchens werent even fully assimialed into chinese culture yet, well at least not the noble or ruling class since they would always be the last party of society to be assimiliated.

Yes, and they married FREQUENTLY. MANY married Hans before the ban was lifted. So, highborn wives were at least half Han, if not full Han by the time of Genghis's conquest.

“With Jurchen and Chinese frequently marrying each other, the rulers legalized intermarriage in 1191”

“Many married Hans, although the ban on Jurchen nobles marrying Hans was not lifted until 1191.”

Many+frequently+before the ban(7 decades)= illegal marriage
Many+frequently+after the ban(2 decades til mongols)+still from relatively lower social class=lowborn/concubine

Do you understand what it mean to be "high born"? Han chinese were still prevented from reaching higher class during that time, if mongols come 1300 or so things might have been different.

Han married Jurchen noble(highborn), therefore Noble's offspring, a Jurchenized Han, inherited nobility and became a highborn. Highborn became Genghis Khan's wife.

Man you are dense arent you? Do you know why there was a ban to begin with? To precisely prevent such things from happening, mix up with han people and give the such offspring inheritage of nobility/right to rule would be the absolute nightmare for the Non han rulers, in which regard like the jurchen/tangut/khitan/and late mongol emperor always only allow offspring of their own ethnic to take over. If the Jurchen noble(highborn) had a child with han during that time the last thing he will do is to allow social status being inherited, most likely the offspring would be hidden away or even killed since it was illegal to begin with and could bring trouble. And if the offspring happens to be female, well you should know something about the position of female babies in ancient China from a illegal union non less....

Well, intermarriages were commonplace (even with the ban) and the Jurchens lifted the ban anyway, so the issue of Jurchens keeping nobility to themselves was inconsequential in actuality.

Not really, even if they "intermarriaged" with han, such issues concerning offsprings or the status of han were always very serious during any of the non han dynasties in china, especially by the few generations from the beginning of the ruling class/nobilities would do their best keeping their blood,identity and heritage distinctive from the majority han people as being part of the survival strategy, the view that they are privilaged and should keep their identity for as long as they can was always defined by the founder of the dynasty, and the rulers would setting up new rules and laws accordingly, like jin, xixia, liao, qing and of course kubilai khan. While in time such measures would lose effects and meaning, by the time when Genghis Khan lead his force south jin dynasty only managed to setting up their rule in northern china for less than a century, still being regarded as "babarians" by the han people, many han people and sinofied jurchen from lower class would even aid mongols to bring down "their" dynasty, simply put, the jurchen didnt have enough time to change their traditional way and behaviours.

We lost only 2 wars in history to foreigners and regained our independence eventually. Mongols, and Manchus. The other times, there was always a remaining Han state that eventually overpowered the invaders.

Even the Mongols, they reigned for 89 years, but then were overthrown by the Han (some claim he was Korean) peasant Zhu Yuanzhang who established the Ming Dynasty. Then he used cannons to break their capital Xanadu and torched the city.

Every war in Chinese history has been lost by traitors. Jia Sidao for the Mongols, Wu Sangui for the Manchus, Wang Jingwei for the Japanese.

Strange view over history about war and traitor, throughout history only 2 non han groups managed to really defeat china (and become part of china themselves like most others who tried their luck and failed), mongol faced a china which was already divided for over centuries by liao, sung, jin, xixia, also chinese state at that time was considered as millitarily the weakest point in history barely able to hold up the position even without the interferrence of mongols, ironically chinese culture, economy and science made huge achievements at the same time. It surely wasnt such big challange to defeat and conquer china during the mongol age, nevertheless it took them 3 generations to finish their conquest just to lose all in a few decades, being defeated by the "new" old china both culturally and millitarily.

Manchurians had even more luck since at the time of their invasion chinese central government already collapsed thanks to internal rebellion, also they were even invited into china by the ming "loyalists" or "han traitors", it was basically a walk in job, fight the burnt out peasant army with help the remain of best ming forces from northeastern border region and finally take the spoiles.

Traitors certainly did their part but in both cases of mongols and manchurian, the downfall would be inevitable considering the geopolitical situation, and in the case of japan, the foreign invasion failed even with help of so many traitors and "collaboration" armies.

In the case of Japanese, China was already split between a Nationalist China, the ROC, and the resentful Manchurian nobles who collaborated with the Japanese as they wanted their Monarchy back.


Also, can someone tell definitively what is a "Han"? Is there a genetic marker to look for?

Btw, what is the basis of this thread again? I see nothing that supports this premise has been posted. Mongolians are closer to Russians politically, I think.

China and Russia are allies and part of their own version of NATO called the SCO.

Also, there is no such thing as Han. Chinese people are the most diverse east Asian and have mixture from all sorts of Asian ethnicities. It can be an advantage in terms of unity - but also a disadvantantage when there's so many nationalists claiming "purity".

And, I see way more similarities between Chinese and Mongolians than differences.

Its an identity and its an ethnicity. Quit listening to what Koreans say that Han is nothing. Every ethnicity is mixed. Why are so many ABCs so fu-king guillible to what they read on the internet? Mongols also are mixed with Caucasians and all sorts of Turks. That means there is also no such thing as a Mongolian but yet you never hear Mongolians put themselves down that they are not really an ethnicity and are just a bunch of mutts. Speak for yourself and don't speak for the rest of us. You can be a no ethnicity Asian all you want. You're pretty much like that anyway.

But it's true that CHina was raped by mongols and many other ethnicities. I think it's a good thing to have diversity and admixture in your blood. I'm so sick of everyone saying how "chineses all look the same" or "China is the land of 1 billion Han imperialists".

China is NOT homogenous, unlike Korea and Japan. Being mixed gives us Chinese an advantage because we can easily relate to other Asian peoples. Because Chinese people are mixed, it will unite us and make us special.

The western media is trying to use "Han" against China by saying that the "Han majority" are oppressing the ethnic minorities. In reality, Han doesn't exist because every Chinese person is mixed with 2 or more ethnicities.

That's why in China you'll find dark people, light people, caucasian features, black features, red hair, etc...You can't find that naturally in Korea or Japan. China's diversity makes it unique and we should be celebrating it.

Or perhaps you should stop caring so much about what other people think.

Then again it's pretty obvious that you're trolling.

Koreans got raped by mongols too. Mongols got raped by Russians and mixed with a lot of Tocharian people as well. Maybe Mongols are basically Russians and Iranians as well. Most countries in the world are not homogenous. Should they give up their identity too? I'm not even arguing about diversity. I'm arguing about the fact that you call us a bunch of mutts with NO IDENTITY. And how about this? In Russia you will find dark people, light people, caucasian features, black features, red hair. Tell a Russian he is a mutt and basically just a mix of a bunch of minorites. Like I said speak for yourself loser. Don't speak for the rest of us especially when you don't know $hit about china and eat up whatever $hit korean nationalists feed you.

No Chinese in China or even overseas except for self hating ones in Western countries say there is no such thing as Han. Chinese know they are different from province to province but nobodies says the $hit you say.

Read between the lines, it's so obvious that he's trolling. He's basically arguing that Chinese are nothing more than raped mutts and Koreans and Japanese are pure (Which BTW is hardly the case seeing as how Japanese people have a variety of mixes and Koreans as well although I admit the latter probably not as much).

^Devils666 is not chinese.He cant read or speak chinese.He is probably kroean troll I guess.He wants Han to disappear so they can claim our inventions and culture freely.

Actually I think it's YOU who are the troll for trying to make Chinese seem like "pure" Han robots who are all the same.

Purity is a BAD thing. It's better to be diverse. I would hate to be homogenous like Koreans or Japanese who pretty much look the same. I explained to you why in the PM but you didn't respond. I just want to do away with the world "Han" and replace it with "Chinese" - it's unifying.

轉移話題嗎？問題不是我，而是你根本不是中國人。

Here's what he said in the Malaysian forums:

"Haha Jack Sparrow is Malay?? Where did you get that? Jack Sparrow is British - British people ruled the Malaysian Sea. Only White people can control Asia...."

LOL what Chinese or Asian nationalist would even make such a remark? I doubt he's even Asian to begin with. Probably a stormfront member.

Yeah,that makes more sense.

I was being sarcastic because he seems to think Hollywood is on his side.

This is what I said about an ESL MV:


http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=267434