Dam splits Vietnam, Laos
By Marwaan Macan-Markar

BANGKOK - The first in a new series of 11 dams planned across the Mekong, Southeast Asia's largest river, could break a special bond between two communist-ruled countries.

Critics in Vietnam are concerned over a 1,260-megawatt hydropower project planned by their smaller, poorer, land-locked neighbor, Laos. They call it an environmental disaster.

Laos, however, wants to be the powerhouse of the region - to sell power to its neighbors and earn enough to help the poor that are a third of its population of 5.8 million.

The dam in an idyllic hill setting in the north Laos province of Xayaburi (or Sayaboury), will be built by a Thai developer. Thailand is expected to buy 95% of its power to fuel its booming economy.
Environmentalists say the Xayaburi dam and 10 more such constructions planned on the Mekong's mainstream, nine in Laos, make a Faustian bargain.

The dam will "reduce fresh water and silt downstream in Vietnam and devastate fishing," stated 'Tuoi Tre', the country's largest circulating paper, published by the Communist Youth Organisation from Ho Chi Minh City (former Saigon) in the south.

The potential threat of the US$3.5 billion dam in the Mekong delta, Vietnam's "biggest rice producing and fish farming area", has also been highlighted by The Saigon Times.


Vietnam's government officials have raised their voice against the 32-meter-tall, 820-meter-wide dam. "If built, Laos' Xayaburi dam will greatly affect Vietnam's agriculture production and aquaculture," deputy minister of natural resources and environment Nguyen Thai Lai reportedly said in a meeting of the country's Mekong River experts. This goes against the spirit of a 1977 treaty of friendship and cooperation that binds them in a "special relationship".

"The criticism reflects the concerns and the opinion of the public and the government," said Nguy Thi Khanh, deputy director of the Centre for Water Resources Conservation and Development, an NGO based in the northern Vietnam city of Hanoi.

Vietnamese scientists have also said "the project should be stopped", Khanh added during a telephone interview from the Vietnamese capital. "Vietnam's silence about this dam has been broken."

For its part, the Laotian government is sticking to its plan. "We are confident that the Xayaburi Hydroelectric Power Project will not have any significant impact on the Mekong mainstream," officials from Vientiane (the capital of Laos) have explained in a note to the Mekong River experts.

Mekong experts from Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and Vietnam – the four countries that share the waters of the lower Mekong - are meeting in late March to approve the Xayaburi dam plans.

Laos has appealed to its neighbors not to place any blocks to the project. The government does not want to raise the political stakes to the point of being compelled to get its dam blueprint approved by ministers or even prime ministers.

"There will be no need for any extension of time and no need to forward this matter to the [ministerial] level," revealed the note by the Laotian government to Mekong River experts.

This dam issue has become the first major test of environmental diplomacy for the four countries in the lower Mekong, members of the Mekong River Commission (MRC). An inter-governmental body that came up after a 1995 agreement, the Vientiane-based body aims to manage the development of the Mekong basin in consensus. Any plan to dam the Mekong has to be scrutinized for its cross-border impact under a special mechanism, formally known as the Procedure for Notification Prior Consultation and Agreement (PNPCA).

"This is the first time that we are going through the prior consultation process," Jeremy Bird, MRC's chief executive officer, told IPS. "Countries do not have a veto right [to stop a dam being built in a neighboring country] yet countries cannot proceed without consultation."

The MRC's members have to weigh the provision in the agreement that "a country cannot act irresponsibly to impact its neighbor" against every member's "right not to agree" and ability to "take its own decision", said Rudi Veestraeten, Belgium's envoy to Thailand. MRC is funded by Belgium, along with other European countries, Australia and Canada.

Till now the 4,880-km long Mekong has remained free of dams along its journey through the basin, winding its way past Myanmar along the four MRC partners till it falls in the South China Sea in southern Vietnam.

But upstream, the river's flow from its headwaters in the Tibetan plateau through southern China has been harnessed by four dams in China's Yunnan province, part of a cascade of eight mega dams the Asian giant plans. Local activists, environmentalists and even government experts of the lower Mekong are alarmed.

The impact of the Chinese dams on the downstream countries has strengthened campaigns led by Towards Ecological Recovery and Regional Alliance (TERRA), a Bangkok-based green lobby. TERRA warns that dams on the lower Mekong will affect the lives of 60 million people who depend on food and their livelihood from the river.

"Laos has not helped its case because the government has refused to make public the EIA [environmental impact assessment] it has done for the Xayaburi dam," Premrudee Daoroung, co-director of TERRA, told IPS. "The Laotian government says it is a secret document."

they think they are smart ? we don't have any thing to resolve it ? Even china put hand in it.... making dam. if we block the river dont let it flow to the sea then what happen .....hhahahaha.? what out . we want to live in peace but they don't want no problem.

No wonder SoCal is praying 24/7 Vietnam Laos will have ever lasting friendship and peace, he sense something detrimental to Vietnam will happen, and thing like this.

SoCal, u are a genius. Your worry is well found!

LOL! I thought China cooperating with Laos on future business and development would be much better then having Vietnam or Thailand since from What I know many Laotian kind of losing trust towards Vietnam since most resource in Laos are taken into Vietnam where all the development is happening. Over Half are illegal from rare woods and many other things. Local don't get nothing in returned or Laos for that matters.

Also Vietnam should have a full trust toward Laos anyways, if that is not the case. Then that 40 years of special relationship was a scam and untrustworthy on the Vietnam side for not trusting Laos. And remember most of Laos resource went to mostly vietnam, while laos gets shiet at the end.

Why am I in the conversation?

who is better than vietnam ? First, vietnamese dying to protect Lao in 3 wars. Second, vietnamese company has been giving to Lao middle enterprise company Loan. Vietnamese gave lao free access sea port. Fourth, every years give lao 5 thousand scholarship to study in vietnam base on US standard plus 20 millions dollar for lao education ministry. Seagame in Lao, vietnamese private HAGL company gave 30 million dollars. Giving lao free to access vietnam 24/24 like home. give Lao military training tactic like special force, One Lao can beat 3 chinese just in case chinese invade Lao. That is most reason why chinese army give out award who can take one vietnamese military officer they can jum up 2 level in the war time vietnam- china .
Vietnamese and Russian + Japanese + India are focusing building up Lao at a Highland Entertaiment resource in the futre for the whole world. So what do you want ?
we don't take from lao anything except woods.... but we have to pay for that ... that main resource of Lao,this is not for free.

If Vietnam government is not complaining about the largest dam in mainland South East Asia like Son La Dam messing up Red River delta, then they should not complain about Sayaboury dam, which will be located over 1000 km away from the Mekong delta. Plus Mekong doesn't just get water from Laos alone, you have rainfall, water from Cambodia, thailand and China.


Son La dam

Did you know that Son La,Lai Chau,Lao Cai and apart of Yen Bai used to belong to Laos? It was taken away from us by Vietnam after the Communist HoChiMinh and his Viet Cong army into Laos during the during the last french colonization, then later taken more during the China/Vietnam border wars. Also Vietnam is getting into our bussiness too much or being too nosey. I think it is time they should start letting us decide on our own and trust us at least.

^ Stop bull$hitting Bingbing. They were part of Đại Việt by the Lê Dynasty.

I'm just saying that Laos cannot just relied on Vietnam for its own protection, since Vietnam have its own internal and external problems on her own. Laos is just a pawn game for Vietnam interest and I think it is time that Laos stand on her own ground and decide what is best for Laos as a long terms decision. At least Vietnam should stand by us, then not trust us anymore, as to how Laos trust Vietnam on many things like some of the things you lists.

HaoAo sorry you are not Lao. Just a chinese spy. You did not know anything... if you don't talk i may believe you are Lao but when you are talking like statment above then you are not Lao.

Not from what I see on the french/Lao map. We lost alot of land during that time and after the Vietnam War.

Actually I'm Lao/Viet. Just asked Xigon, she will tell you.

This was how things were by the Nguyễn Dynasty. You Lao should stop bull$hitting about how the French or the communist took a huge junk of your land in the 20th century




French took some land from Vietnam and gave it to Laos and Cambodia since the French didn't like Vietnam to be too large . That was how Laos got its shape today. But those provinces weren't among them.


I remember you also said you were Thai mixed once.

Please, those are basic history fact and you already messed up? Learn not to re-write history. History is history, now a day Sip song chu tai is part of Vietnam.


The various Tai groups to the west of what was once known loosely as Annam had a long history of self-government. Between the 14th and 15th centuries, the Tai Dam came under the protection of the Lao of Luang Prabang while still functioning independently. With the establishment of the Chakri dynasty at Thonburi and throughout the Bangkok period, the Siamese gained power over the Kingdom of Lan Chang centered at Vientiane and, indirectly, the Sip Song Chao/Chu Thai region. However, their early control did not extend to the Tai Dam, who remained under the "mild suzerainty" of Luang Prabang. The Siamese, however, did move Tai Dam captives and resettled them in villages near Bangkok, where they are known as Lao Song Dam. When Vietnam fell to France, the Sip Song Chao/Chu Thai and the adjacent Hua Phan Districts were ceded by the Thais to Vietnam in 1888.

Sipsong Chau Tai, which means "Twelve Tai Principalities," was colonized and annexed to Tonkin in 1889. In 1948, the region was reorganized as Sip Hok Chau Tai (Sixteen Tai Principalities), and was referred to by the French as the "Tai Federation". As such, it was declared an independent country by the Tai and the French, and remained so until 1954 when it was absorbed by Vietnam after the defeat of the French at Dien Bien Phu.

After the defeat of the French in 1954, special autonomous administrative zones were established in the northern mountains such as (i) Khu tu tri Thai-Meo (Thai-Meo Autonomous Zone) covering most parts of the present northwestern areas, and (ii) Khu tu tri Viet bac (Viet bac Autonomous Zone) encompassing the present northeastern zone. The Vietnamese, in 1955, renamed the region the "Tai-Meo Autonomous Zone" of Vietnam, then again in 1962, the "Northwest Autonomous Zone".

Many social and economic changes were introduced in the mountains. A series of successive mass mobilization campaigns were conducted to eliminate illiteracy and provide education, suppress shifting cultivation and sedentarise supposedly nomadic minorities, as well as expand the area under cultivation, introduce modern farming technology, and establish agricultural cooperatives.

Finally, in 1975, the region lost its identity and became known simply as the northwest of Vietnam, which now includes the provinces of Son La, Lai Chau. Lao Cai, and Yen Bai.

I never said I was Thai. I did say I'm Tai. I think you got confused with the two wording.

Lol I'm not b!tching about this but if it's not French colonization then the whole Indochina would be part of Vietnam already

Oh, I'm talking about this map Laos-Francis map.

It was an autonomous area but that didn't mean it wasn't part of Đại Việt's territory.

Are you telling me Guangxi isn't part of China because it's a Zhuang autonomous

China currently has lots of autonomous regions too.


Fact was they were part of Đại Việt's territory by the Lê dynasty (16th-18th century). Nguyễn dynasty further expanded Vietnam westward before the French stopped them.

And Viet kings only granted them autonomy sometimes, not all the times, meaning their autonomy wasn't continuous. It was granted and taken back from time to time.

Actually Vietnam would be crush by China on the west side of Annam region. At the time there was no such thing as Viet ethnic or nationality. It was the Geow people, then Viet.

Bingbing's brain got messed up again. Lạc Việt existed before Giao Chỉ.

But what do you expect from this gay kid?

Xigon if you really want to go way back. Then Viet never really extend that far into Laos or towards the South Eastern coast of South China Sea down towards Cambodia.

Going way back? Who was the one that wanted to go way back to the 13th or something when that region didn't belong to Đại Việt.

Fact is those provinces belonged to Đại Việt and then Vietnam all the way from the Lê dynasty until now.

Sorry I don't believe Viet nationalist who are so proud of stealing and manipulating our territory and history of who it belong too. Both Viet and Thai nationalist are very determine to use any formed of dispute to gain any territory in the region. Which is why I think Laos need to be on her own feet and cooperate with China since we have more opportunity and cooperation of bussiness in the regional bussiness competitive.

North Vietnamese with their allied attacked both South Vietnam and Laos Royal government. Claiming that Vietnamese were dying to protect Laos in 3 wars is nothing more than claiming American soldiers were dying to protect South Vietnam and South Korea, which was pure politic. Last time my relatives shipped stuffs through Vietnam seaport was not free, but as not costly as using Thai seaport. So it was good deal to use Viet seaports. No body argue that current Laos/Vietnam communist governments have warm relationship. It's better to have friend than enemy. We can all agree that no one wants Pol Pot to be your next door neighbor. HAGL company is pure business, donation here and there is part of their advertisement campaign and public relation and nothing wrong for them to do that.

Laos largest donors during 80s
Soviet Union, Vietnam and communist block


Laos largest donors during 90s
Australia, Japan, and Sweden


Laos current, largest donors
Japan, European Union, Asian development Bank....etc

Largest investors
China, Vietnam , Thailand.

No quiet buddy, It would be more like this.

So what are you saying? We are a spy for speaking out the truth? And that if we shut our mouth and keep quit we are Lao? And if we even open our mouth for just a little bit. We aren't Lao to you? So basically you're saying Vietnamese thinking we aren't capable of doing anything on our own or isn't important enough? It's obvious why Laos turn the other way then suffering from Viet oppression and hate towards the Lao people. You already proven how Viet think about us.

Thanks alot!

I don't see the dam in Laos as a problem, just as long as the beady-eyed c-hinky bastards don't put their dirty hands in and build poor-quality $hit along the Mekong than I am happy.

What I really don´t get is that why Vietnam didn´t get all the lands that belonged to Nguyen Dynasty back after French´s defeat? I mean, it is normal that the defeated has to give everything back like what happened to Germany as Germany has to give everything back.

Because the border got fixed for so long. Actually after the defeat of the French, we had to enter a treaty called the Geneva Accord with the US, France, and other countries. This treaty divided Vietnam into North and South rather expand it.

Couldn't you see? The West didn't like communism. What makes you think they would let a country ruled by communist to expand? Furthermore, they would say that those land belonged to Laos and Cambodia before the Nguyen conquered it anyway.

Also, it was because Vietnamese didn't fully colonize those land yet. You see, during our expansion, after we conquered land from others, we let many Vietnamese migrate in. By time, Viet would outnumber the previous inhabitants of that area. But we hadn't done that to those lands yet (though there were quite many Vietnamese there).

Because Nguyen Dynasty owned by Uncle Ho. The last Nguyen emperor fled south while American were trying their best to save South Vietnamese government. Unfortunately, even with massive aid, the south lost. One US senior official suggested it was due to over 80% of South Vietnamese army incompetency. American wasted money for nothing.

Actually, Nguyen dynasty land was under French. The gaining was under French administrative. You have to give credit to French master, they gained those lands for you. Take a look at the map below.

Is it time to kick Laos and gives Laos to Hmong yet?

i only regret that our ancestor don't put un end to whats so called Tran Hoa, Tran Duong, ... which is Lao today... but let them to be a vassal state.

Wha do you mean? Can you elaborate a little bit more? THX!

Actually, they tried, but died of trying. Anyway i think Laos should build 10 dams in the Mekong, so Mekong delta people can learn how to grow rice with Sea Water. Good luck.

A large area of Laos and Cambodia was under Vietnamese rule in the past.

"Phnom Penh" was named "Trấn Tây Thành" (literally "Western Defense Citadel") as it was the furthest west city of Vietnam under Ming Mang reign.



Since 1479, a kingdom named "Bồn Man" was conquered by Đại Việt. This was a small Tai kingdom, east of Laos and west of Vietnam. Their territory included Xiengkhoang province and Hủa Phăn province of Laos. After conquered by Đại Việt, the area was renamed "Trấn Ninh". They were part of a region called "Xứ Nghệ" (literally "Nghệ land"), which included Nghệ An and Hà Tĩnh, along with Trấn Ninh.

Trấn Ninh was left "autonomous" (semi-independent, similar to the autonomous regions in China today) by the Viet kings. But administration-wise, they were considered to be part of the larger xứ Nghệ and had to pay taxes to the Vietnamese court like other provinces within Đại Việt. Trấn Ninh was left to be ruled by tribal leaders of the "Cầm" family (Cầm was a Tai surname).

In the 16th and 18th century, Đại Việt continuously faced civil war between many factions - Trịnh Lord, Nguyễn Lord, Tây Sơn and numerous others. Trấn Ninh was occupied by Lê Duy Mật (an anti-Trịnh leader) in 1760s. But Trịnh lord soon crushed his rebel and gave Trấn Ninh back to descendants of the Cầm family.

When Siam became a powerful nation, Trấn Ninh became a vassal state of Siam but they still paid tributaries to Đại Việt every year (different from paying taxes).

When the Tây Sơn took over Đại Việt, the tribal leaders of Trấn Ninh followed Lanxang and Siam to oppose Tây Sơn. General Trần Quang Diệu brought an army over to "pacify" them and arrested the tribal leaders of Trấn Ninh.

When Tây Sơn fell, Nguyễn Ánh (title "Gia Long") took over the throne (and moved the capital to Hue). Nguyễn Ánh gave Trấn Ninh land to the Vientiane kingdom of A Nỗ (Anouvuong). However, when the tribal leader (Chieu Xanh) of Trấn Ninh died, Anouvuong refused to let Chiêu Nội (Chao Noi), the son of Chiêu Xanh, rule Trấn Ninh.

Chiêu Nội held a grudge against Anouvuong and ran to Nghệ An, begging to be part of Đại Nam again (Simple: because when Trấn Ninh belonged to Đại Việt, Viet kings often gave autonomy to Tai tribal leaders. When Trấn Ninh belonged to Vientiane, Anouvoung took the autonomy away from the tribal leader. So since they wanted their autonomy, they wanted to be part of Vietnam again).

The Nguyen king didn't do anything. When Siam grew stronger and attacked Vientiane, Anouvoung ran to Nghệ An. Chao Noi took advantage of this to revenge and turn Anouvoung in for Siam.

The Nguyen King got angry at this action of Chao Noi and executed him. After killing Chao Noi, the Nguyen king sent some Vietnamese over to administer Trấn Ninh.

In the 1833-1834, there was a war between Siam and Đại Nam, and Siam slowly took some part of Trấn Ninh.

When the French took over Vietnam, they gave Xieng khoang and Huaphan (which were still part of Vietnam by that time) back to Laos in 1893.

Xiengkhuang and Houphan - Once part of the Bồn Man kingdom, conquered by Đại Việt during the Lê dynasty, given back to Laos by the French in 1893



(P/S: Trấn Ninh boundary was obviously altered throughout history, here it looks more extensive than originally)

So in short, Trấn Ninh was an "autonomy" region of Đại Việt for most of its history from the 15th century. In Vietnam's history, the minority tribes on mountains often had "autonomy" (semi-independence) but they still had to submit themselves under Viet kings. When Đại Việt was invaded, the tribal leaders had to cooperate with the Vietnamese court to ward off the invaders. Sometimes, the tribal leaders could be "bribed" by the invaders (something like "After we take over Đại Việt, we'll give you more power, more freedom, not to mention gold rewards etc."), but if they did that and if Đại Việt successfully pushed away the invaders, the tribal leaders would face dire consequences (eg: execution, autonomy being taken away...)

Thanks for this info, but it hurts my heart.

What kind of $hittty map is that? Tran ninh? What a good made up map? This is beyond anybody comprehension, even major of Viet nationalists never heard of Tran ninh? Never in history your so called Tran ninh was part or vassal state of Vietnam. We can not find in anybody history book besides your nationalist history book. I admitted that it used to part of Siam and French and not Vietnam though.




Did you know a large area of Vietnam was under Khmer in the past. Also Sip Song Chu Tai, officially just became part of Vietnam in 1888, under French administrative. All viet nationlists should thank French, instead of by gone era Nguyen dynasty.

See, what i mean, this young mind, never heard of Tran Nioh, tran Nguyen or tran nish, whatever you call! It's more like a joke of the century.

Here is the fact. Large part of Laos used to be part of Khmer Empire, Siam then French. Small border towns might pay tribute to Nguyen dynasty here and there due to close proximately, and doesn't mean all part of Laos Lanxang used to belong to you. clear? All Viet nationalist need to stop making history up about Laos. You don't like it when Chinese twisted history on you. Anymore question let me know?

Khmer empire


Siam Kingdom



French Indochina.

That map was from

"Creating Laos: The Making of a Lao Space Between Indochina and Siam, 1860-1945" by Søren Ivarsson

and

"Việt Nam Sử Lược" by Trần Trọng Kim.

The boundary of Trấn Ninh was pretty extended in that map but that was because the map dates in the late 1800s, and we all know King Ming Mạng expanded Vietnam extensively.


I wrote a note under the map. The Trấn Ninh I was talking about for the most part only included Huaphan and Xieng khoang .

Of course Trấn Ninh is not well known because there's nothing but mountains up there, plus the French had cut it back to Laos. So no one mentions it anymore. Let's say if Lai Châu today is given to Laos. Then within 50 years, no Vietnamese would have a slightest idea of what Lai Châu was anymore since it's just a mountainous province with lots of minorities.

You accuse people of this and that but you're just a brainless Lao troll. You don't even have a slightest idea of the maps you post. You just post up whatever looks good to you.

This one, for example, is a map of French's gradual takeover of Southeast Asia. [Southern Vietnam was the first to be taken by the French through a 1863 treaty. Then other parts are slowly taken over.] It is NOT a map of political boundaries between Southeast Asian nations. But Lao trolls like you often use it as a political map, as if the lines drawn on the map should be boundaries of states.


I don't think you can even provide a the name of a credible author or institute where your map is from, let alone understanding the maps.

Edit: Need to highlight the bold line above because somebody couldn't read.

Really, miss fake historian? Little bit over 100 years before French and British arrival, Laos and Siam were the same country. Your so called Tran Ninh, which nobody recognized besides your own version of history, was the central administrative and the heart of Laos Lanxang. The area was populated by Tai/Lao people and Viet were just one of minorities in those area. Ming Mang might have told his future French master that those areas belong to Vietnam, which was not recognized by Siam or Lao ruler in Viengchan. You can not use “claiming” as your legitimated document. Claiming and actually controlling are not the same. It doesn’t sit well in the past, and doesn’t sit well today either. Recent messy claiming is about Paracel islands in the South China Sea. Have you noticed?

Sip Song Chu Tai claimed by Siam and Vietnam and French finally forced Siam to give up in 1888.

This is how Siam and Laos look before French and British arrival.

For a moment, I've forgotten that there's no use in responding to a troll like Buddhalove. What a waste of time. You can talk whatever you want but anyone who does collect documentaries and valuable records of history from all sides knows what I'm talking about.

Adios. Hope you enjoy babbling about your fantasy with your other Lao fellows.

I can not help it if you can not handle the truth, true is true, and it never died. Just think like this: Claiming is like clapping with one hand, it won't make much noise until you use both hands. Both Siam and Laos have to recognized that Tran Ninh belong to Vietnam for it to work, and non of them did. By telling French that it was part of your won't add up either and French agreed. That is why we have our lovely map today.

Not only that. China has to agree with the claim aswell.

Also, my mom said Northern and Central Viet are nice people. Since they are more understandable with our culture and ways if thinking, unlike those from the south or in Ho Chi Minh city people who are greedy and selfish. LMAO!! Sorry, just sharing my conversation with AF members. I thought it would be interesting to know, well from my mom view tho. Please don't get piss or be hatin at me now, especially Xigon.

Don't worry Xigon, i know what you have said is the truth, i belive and i and most of Vietnamese don't forget about our Golden Age yet, one day we'll try to show to the world our Shining Culture and History.

I only regret that Nguyen Tri Phuong is a worst strategist, even with a large army with almost 12.85 times of French army but still lose, he believed that those "Quy" Phu Lang Sa is immortal and undefeatable so he put our army in the defense position... while we ran out of support, and then the French use Guerilla tatics... we have lost.... and our emperor lost all the will to fight... he can't believed that with a small size army, french can defeated Nguyen Tri Phuong, so the emperor made a decision to signed in the French's Treaties...
of course i regarded him as a hero (cos he suicided when he knew that he lose to the french) , but not as a strategist...

Remember... about Trinh-Nguyen Lords time, Nguyen Lord Fire power used to be the strongest, His Army with only a few battle ship defeated 5 Dutch Battle Ship (Dutch navy knew as "undefeatable demon" on the sea"), only 1 small Dutch support ship can ranaway... he cut off all the Dutch army nose and ears and then put them in a gift and give it to Trinh Lord as a warning...

If only Nguyen Dynasty don't exist.... If Only Quang Trung didn't have to gone so young...

@Buddhalove: Who gonna trust you? you should know that we already knew the truth your lies is not gonna work...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/vi/t...-Tonkin1893.jpg

This is the Truth man... Truth always hurt.

These idiots are always amusing. Using modern maps to justify a situation of the 15th century. Whatever floats your boat. Sure you love the modern map so much, then stick with it. We all should stick to modern maps Who was the one that moaned first about how a big part of Vietnam should have belonged to Laos? When shown the otherwise, you moved back to your defense position and endorse the modern boundary now. It's all great. At least you're being good and accept the boundary that has been set for over a century instead of barking over western Vietnam.

Only south Vietnamese nationalist believe you and nobody else. Keep on clapping with one hand. Typical viet nationalist mentality: they only use some facts to support their claims and disregard facts that make them look bad. Makeing up stuffs along the way to make them look good is common rountine. Here is the true old map that Xigon probably like.

Don't lost your cool Xigon, ain't you suppose to be a scholar? . Anyway I would like to pay tribune to Sip Song chu tai Never forget her.

Clash with Dali Empire:
1014: Clash with Dali Empire, captured Hà Giang and Vị Long a province of Tuyên Quang
1159: Clash with Dali again, captured Lào Cai and North Yên Bái.
= > Total 14 945, 8 km2 (square kilometres) (except Yên Bái and Tuyên Quang because no one know exactly about these area in the past)

Captured Chế Củ:
1069: captured king of Champa - Chế Củ exchange with 3 Province: Bố Chính, Ma Linh, Địa Lý, equivalent to Quảng Bình, Quảng Trị today.
= > total 12 809,6 square kilometres.

Châu Ô, Châu Rí:
1306: exchanged (there is no other word, this is exactly what they thought) Huyền Trân princess with these 2 province, equivalent to South Quảng Trị and Thừa Thiên – Huế today.
= > about 5 065,3 square kilometres ( except south Quảng Trị due to unknow exactly area).

Hồ Quý Ly:
about 1400 – 1403, Hồ Quý Ly with his ideal to create “Nam Bộ hậu phương” or "Southern Hinterland" of Central Vietnam today, so he attacked Champa, so he tried to capture Đà Nẵng, Quảng Nam and of course he captured them.
= > about 11 721,8 square kilometres.

Lê Thánh Tông:
1471: attacked Champa, capture Champa Citadel Vijaya ( Bình Định), so Champa people have to moved back to Khánh Hòa. Phú Yên become buffer. so this time Dai Viet Empire capture 2 province which is Quảng Ngãi and Bình Định.
1478: Massacred Bồn Man, capture Sơn La.
= > about 25 274,6 square kilometres.

Nguyễn Lord ( 1611 – 1680 - 1757; about 69 – 146 years): capture the entire our modern country, except Tây Nguyên ( KonTum, Gia Lai, Dak Lak, Đắc Nông).
= > capture 86 055,4 square kilometres.

Minh Mạng Emperor: captured Tây Nguyên
= > about 54 640,3 square kilometres
= > plus 60 184 kilometres of Laos and Cambodia.

Well look at this:



Minh Mang Expansion:

(Square Kilometres)

Laos:
Houaphan ( 16 500)
Cambodia:
Kampong Cham ( 9 799)
Kampong Chhnang ( 5 521)
Kampong Spe ( 7 017)
Kampot ( 4 873)
Kandal ( 3 568)
Kep ( 336)
Phnom Penh ( 290)
Sihanoukville ( 868)
Prey Veng ( 4 883)
Svay Rieng ( 2 966)
Takéo ( 3 563)
= > total: Laos ( 16 500 square kilometres) + Campuchia ( 43 684 kilometres equivalent ¼ area of Modern Cambodia) = 60 184 square kilometres.