http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13247723

Carter had accused the US and SK of human rights violation against NK by starving its people. US fails to provide adequate defence against this claim giving very generic statements that don't mean anything. so far the US have murdered around 5 million north koreans over the past two decades through its sanctions.

Unfortunately for you, nobody takes Jimmy Carter seriously. Both North and South Korean leaders snubbed his meeting requests. LOL.

Americans also think he's a dud.

I think we should make a speclai room for this fake Iranian so that he can discuss all by himself, the poor North Korea being bullied by evil South Korean and Americans.

Is Jimmy nuts?

This just shows that the US is more concerned about its own geopolitical games rather than real human rights. There's no excuse to let a people starve, none. Not even when their leaders don't agree with your ideology. Aid should be continued even if the North Korean regime is being obtuse.

The only reason the US isn't providing aid and still cutting off trade with North Korea is primarily to foster a rich environment for a coup, in other words, trying to instill "regime change".

That said, Kim Jung Il is primarily responsible for the starvation of North Koreans, but it takes a pretty cold and heartless nation(s) to stand-by and restrict trade with a starving nation, knowing full well that your actions will cause millions to starve. There's a time for geopolitical games, and then there's a time for general humanity. Hard to believe that our nation chooses games over humanity. Pity.

In this world its all about MONEY, POWER, and CONTROL... HUMAN RIGHTS IS JUST A POLITICAL TOOL. ONLY A FOOL WOULD BELIEVE IT!!

And where is Japan in all this? They won't trade with North Korea nor give them any aid because they want North Korea to cough up couple of kidnapped Japanese women who are probably all dead by now. Look at your own back yard, foi2.

I think he meant "we", as in the US.

unfortunate for me?? it's unfortunate for YOU lol. seriously how am i going to be affected by US crimes in korea? i'm just telling u my keen observation on the issue. and it's pretty obvious that america preaches on human rights ad nauseum while on the other hand quietly commits some of the world's most heinous and destructive crimes. so far they have murdered untold millions of chinese (mao era) and north koreans (90's-today), tens of thousands elsewhere like iraq, afghanistan, libya, latin america, etc. hell they even committed an astronomical number of crimes even on their allies south korea and japan over the past 6-7 decades. it seems like where ever they go they bring three things: murder, torture, rape.

it's hypocracy at its FINEST i tell u.

agreed. playing games over human lives. sick.

all these food & financial aid didn't went to starving North Koreans, it all went into North Korean elite's guts.
North Koran regime didn't changed since 1990s, they are using the aid money on feeding their military and poring into nuke development.

btw, S.Korea is still providing humanitarian aid to N.Korea via NGO such as Red Cross and Christian missionary & other charities.

making the north regime fat will worsened the suffering and starving of the north korean subjects

No he did not. He chastized them for withholding food aid. That is not the same as starving its people.



What is generic about point out that North Korea suspended the aid program in 2009?




Evidence?

Yup, as long as North Korea's current regime prevails more suffering of North Koreans.
Current N.Korean regime isn't same as used to be back in Kim Il Sung's days, all these ex-Kim Il Sung's people are either dead or retired from power, now look at what Kim Jong Il and his sons are doing. Pro-North Korean factions blames U.S and South Korea for starvation of North Koreans due to trade embargo and political restriction, please note it was South Korea who have offered helping hand when North Korea went through worse famine and natural disasters back in 1990s.

I will take more seriously what Carter said only if he accuses North Korea of human rights violations because of public executions. In 2009 alone, 58 north Korean people were executed in public. Not to mention several hundred thousand political prisoners in the labor camps in a horrible condition.

North Korea Public Execution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73KOEXPEvok...feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCK_HjAyuRs...feature=related

i agree. sanctions don't work and it only kills innocent civilians. it's simply disgusting.

iraq is a sad example of this, but at least they had oil for food program getting tens of billions worth of funds

-Before the invasion

{{When asked on US television if she [Madeline Albright, US Secretary of State] thought that the death of half a million Iraqi children [from sanctions in Iraq] was a price worth paying, Albright replied: “This is a very hard choice, but we think the price is worth it.”}}
{{Well, I stand behind the sanctions. I believe that they successfully contained Saddam Hussein. I believe that the sanctions were an instrument of our policy.}}
{{At various stages throughout the sanctions, it was often said by U.S. officials that the sanctions would not be lifted until the Saddam Hussein regime had gone.}}

-After the invasion

{{In the past, the U.S. and U.K., primarily, had been most vocal in maintaining sanctions, though now, they were the main drivers to lift them, showing the political power the two nations have in the international arena.}}

So, the DPRK chooses to spend its money on weapons and nukes instead of feeding its people. And the US, SK, etc... choose not to GIVE them food. And it's somehow a human rights violation on the part of people who are not GIVING food way??

That's like charging me with a crime for walking past a able-bodied homeless guy and not dropping money in his box. It makes no sense.

The DPRK could buy food for its people... or better yet, stop pissing off its neighbors, and they'd be far better off. One only needs to look at the Kim governing structure if you're looking for someone to blame.

u haven't analyzed the US strategy here. they blame everything on the NK regime and yet they turn a deaf ear to the most basic necessity for progress and change in the relations, a PEACE TREATY proposal. why is the US constantly avoiding this? it's very simple. they are afraid that NK will normalize, forge friendly relationship wtih south korea and secure peace in the north-east asia region. the US doesn't want that, they want to keep their bases and keep the tension. by not signing the peace treaty and keeping sanctions on NK, the US is deliberately forcing NK to be agressive and to focus on regime-survival above anything else (remember goernemnts like humans work in maslow's hierarchy. there are priorities that come above the people). this gives the US the perfect scenario where they can play their classic blame game and democracy preaching (and of course sell arms to south korea and plenty of other things i won't care to mention here). remember, south korea is STILL AT WAR with NK. thank uncle sam for this.lol and i can bet u, the pentagon and the CIA have already decided the date on which they're going to start the second korean war. just like iraq and libya, they got it all planned out. to destroy china even.

LOL this is classic. this is how americans argue and their conclusions seem perfectly reasonable. of course u forgot the icing on the cake: how about a word or two on democracy and freedom?

No, the situation is actually more akin to a mad man with a family of starving children. As a bystander, not only are you refusing to provide food, but you're telling all your friends and family not to donate, as well as not hire the starving children. All because you hate the madman. His children has to suffer because you and the crazy dude don't see eye to eye.

That, my friend, is the difference. Feel free to not donate and help, that's fine. Don't hold others back from trading with them just because it suits your geopolitical gains. That's just sick.

Look Japanese. I don't see Japan helping either. Why is that? Not because of any human rights issues, but because of couple of dead Japanese citizens who were kidnapped by North Korea. Definitely not because of any human rights for North Korea. Now that is truly immoral. Japan is withholding food aid and have put sanctions on NK, over couple of Japanese. In the meantime, Japan can't bother to tell the truth in their school text books about the hundreds of thousands of Korean Comfort women during WWII.

I mean really.. as if you really care about these North Koreans. Admit it, you don't. You care because this is just another chance at the stab at the US and ROK alliance.

In fact, not giving food and aid to a murderous regime is the right thing to do. It will stop feeding their military and it will stop feeding their upper echelon who are making the ordinary North Korean's lives miserable. Talk to all the defectors from North Korea in South Korea, most agree that putting sanctions on North Korea is the only way to help the North Korean people. NK defectors are the ones who demand SK not give NK a dime. They also estimate that South Korean aid during the Kim Dae Jung and Roh Moo Hyun era has prolonged the North Korean government and the North Korean misery by up to 20 years. They blame Kim and Roh for the suffering of North Koreans.

South Korea giving food aid just doesn't make any sense when North Korea has attacked South Korea just few months ago, and killed lots of South Koreans. So you expect me to give a dime to those NK soldiers up in the North, so that they can kill us again? Go F@ck yourself foi2.
If you want to donate to North Korea, donate yourself to Kim Jong Il's coffers. Let's see any of that money goes to North Korean people.

u're not making any sense at all mate. have u read my previous post? i made it clear already that the core of the issue lies in the POLITICAL situation. food aid is not an issue, so resume the aid (or not, if u prefer more north kroeans to starve please be my guest) and focus on the issue here. if u don't change the political state u won't change much about north korean people. they will continue to starve and die off. the US knows this so they're taking advantage of it to play their diplomatic antics for diversion and to make it seem like they are resorting to different measures to solve the NK issue when they know full well deep in their minds that it's going to lead nowhere. it's really pathetic cuz NK is still waiting for the peace treaty, still wating for the south koreans to wake up to their senses. i most heartedly agree with north koreans calling SK puppet government cuz that's exactly what they are: too blind and subservient to think sensibly.

Look, Chinese pretending to be an Iranian, it is SK's policy not to give anymore aid to North Korea until they show they are willing to stop being so hostile toward the South. Stop making it look like SK is some kind of a puppet regime. We can make our own choices and we can vote - unlike you Chinese or Iranians or whatever it is that you really are.

^ Don't waste time with that Iranian.



So did you donated to North Korean charity?
It seems you're only bringing this "three wise monkeys" talk just to spat on Koreans here.

Even anyone tried to send aid to North Korea, not a single aid money goes to starving North Korean children, that's why they make life risking action to crossing the border.

of course u can. who said south koreans can't vote. i am fully aware that south korea is democratic country with its own sovereignty. i am also gradually becoming aware of the incredible extent of the US campaign to demonize NK and china in south korean minds (thanks to ur amazing persistence in ur irrational beliefs). they did it man. give uncle sam a high-five anyways i find it amusing that u and kochigachi love to resort to cheap ad hominem attacks whenver u have nothing to back up ur arguments or when u feel just outright insecure. u still haven't addressed the points i raised for example. instead u dismissed them so pathetically

i'm just going to ignore this.


dude foi2 is being reasonable and humane here. the fact remains, the US and SK have stopped food aid and the north koreans are beginning to starve. if u can't see the connection here then i really have nothing more to say.

Despite what some are accusing SK (that SK is not helping out North Koreans) it's the South Koreans who are most active in helping North Koreans. There are dozens of South Korean charities and NGO's secretly helping North Koreans with food and helping them to escape to South Korea, from China. You won't find any Japanese and Chinese/Iranian nationalists helping these people out - despite their false and pretentious claims that they care so much for North Koreans. In reality, they're more interested in using this topic to gain their own agenda.
Nothing more disgusts me then these people.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_d...1042901196.html

i don't have any agendas here. i'm just voicing my unbiased observations. and u're doing ur best to ignore them cuz it doesn't fit YOUR agenda and beliefs.

Even on the date North Korea attacked Chunan vessel, South Korean shipment carrying rice, instant noodle, cement aid
for the North was in Dandong, China waiting for custom clearance.



Shipment carrying S Korean rice aid heads to N Korea

PTI | 04:10 PM,Oct 27,2010

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news...rea/450245.html

Seoul, Oct 26 (Kyodo) A South Korean freighter carrying 5,000 tons of rice has left the South Korean port of Gunsan to China for delivering them to to flood-stricken North Korea. The shipment that left yesterday is part of a 13.9 billion ton (about USD 12.3 million) flood relief pledged by South Korea in the aftermath of recent flooding in the North. It is the first government aid to Pyongyang under President Lee Myung Bak, who came to office in February 2008. The cargo ship is heading for the Chinese port of Dandong on the border with North Korea, where the rice aid will be delivered by trucks to the North Korean city of Sinuiju, which had been severely affected by flooding. Another ship carrying about 3 million packs of instant noodles had set sail for Dandong from the South Korean port Incheon on Monday. The departure of the rice shipment was put off because of foul weather, South Korean officials said. South Korea also plans to send 10,000 tons of cement to North Korea later this week. Relations between Seoul and Pyongyang have eased in recent months from heightened tensions following the sinking of a South Korean warship near the North Korean border. North Korea has offered to hold dialogue with the South, and the two sides are making arrangements for reunions of 200 Korean families separated in the aftermath of the 1950-1953 Korean War. The reunions, the first in more than a year, are scheduled to take place from Oct 30 to Nov 5.(Kyodo)

Korean members: Read this.

http://blog.naver.com/sjk60?Redirect=Log&a...gNo=70097171090

NK is hungry so they deserve no food. That's my take on it.

this statement makes no sense.

For those who can't read Korean, the article says South Korean aid has been secretly transported into North Korea, despite all the talks of boycotts and cutbacks on aid. This is to placate the North Korean's demands that South Korea not mark the aid shipments with any signs that it's coming from South Korea. Doesn't this tell you what kind of regime these North Korean leaders are? Those ethnic Chinese from North Korea who now live in China says that those aid will never go to the North Korean people. They say it will go to the hotels in North Korea to be sold to rich tourists, sent to the upper North Korean leaders and their family, or sent straight to the North Korean military commanders.

South Koreans would gladly see our tax money working for North Korea if North Korea allows the UN inspectors to monitor and distribute these aid, and make sure that they go to the people, and not feed the crazy leaders of North Korea and their military personnel which can be used to attack South Korea.

But North Korea kicked out all UN aid workers, but demand that the world feed their military and Kim Jong Il.

KraterosHellas, foi2, and others should answer the question, why we should feed Kim Jong Il, when North Korea won't allow third party food aid monitoring, and why should we feed Kim Jong Il when he just wasted hundreds of millions of dollars on Kim's birthday party (with all the massive show of North Koreans in the stadium singing, dancing, and praising Kim Jong Il). That money could have spent on feeding the people. Why should we give a dime when North Korea is spending billions on nuclear weapons while their people are starving?

^i think SK is doing a good thing helping out NK people. good for u guys. but what about the US?

It's like talking to a wall. Did you even bother to read what I wrote? Those SK aid is going straight to Kim Jong Il's apparatus. That's not "helping NK people". It's making their misery lengthen by lengthening the rule of NK rulers. The best way to help the NK people is to make NK collapse, and force NK to replace those leaders.

i dun understand and also dun agree with that too.

unless there are ways to bypass the nk regime in delivering aids to the north korean citizens, nothing helps. it is clear that aids going to nk regime do not ends up with the people, and instead goes to the regime in their personal luxury and building up military aggression biting on the hands that help them.

however nobody is obliged to feed someone else who are not of their responsibilities. a brazilian is not obliged, neither the americans nor the chinese nor the south koreans. the north korean regime will have the sole responsibility to do that, especially since they bloated their juche ideology and chose not to cooperate with the rest of the world.

americans can't possibly starve north koreans since the north korean regime is in place in north korea. likewise americans have not fought a war with north korea since the korean war, you can't have a murder when u r not physically involved. there is no need to deny, since it is physically obvious such allegations are at best metaphorical, it not totally out of the world.

You make no difference.

NK doesn't deserve food period.

i can't believe some ppl here really believe sanctions will work.

they've been sanctioned since 1950s and recently you have this regime throwing a party for their leader spending hundreds of million$. we are in 2011 ppl. that is not the sign of imminent collapse if i ever saw one.

the US named 3 sanctioned countries iraq, iran, and NK as axis of evil. one of them is invaded and turned into a hell hole as you all know, and US politicians also have threatened to invade iran and NK. so of course they'll spend whatever they have left to military build up to keep their power, instead of feeding their ppl. and no one here is denying that KJI is not to be blamed. even the US recognizes sanctions (as i quoted earlier) punish and kill civilians so i don't see why ppl are surprised that the US has their hands in NK's suffering also.


{{When trying to rein in the misbehavior of roguish regimes, be it nuclear proliferation, support for terrorism, or internal repression, the United States increasingly turns to a policy of economic sanctions.

A quick survey: We began our economic embargo against North Korea in 1950. We've had one against Cuba since 1962. We first applied economic sanctions to Iran during the hostage crisis in 1979 and are currently trying for international sanctions aimed at getting the government there to suspend uranium enrichment. We attached trade sanctions to Burma beginning in 1990 and froze the assets of Sudan beginning in 1997. President Bush ordered sanctions against Zimbabwe in 2003 and against Syria beginning in 2004. We have also led major international sanctions campaigns against regimes since brought down by force of arms: Milosevic's Yugoslavia, Saddam's Iraq, and Taliban Afghanistan.
..............
Sanctions tend to fail as a diplomatic tool for the same reason aerial bombing usually fails. As Israel is again discovering in Lebanon, the infliction of indiscriminate suffering tends to turn a populace against the proximate cause of its devastation, not the underlying causes. People who live in hermit states like North Korea, Burma, and Cuba already suffer from global isolation. Fed on a diet of propaganda, they don't know what's happening inside their borders or outside of them. By increasing their seclusion, sanctions make it easier for dictators to blame external enemies for a country's suffering. And because sanctions make a country's material deprivation significantly worse, they paradoxically make it less likely that the oppressed will throw off their chains.
.............
Tyrants seem to understand how to capitalize on the law of unintended consequences. In many cases, as in Iraq under the oil-for-food program, sanctions themselves afford opportunities for plunder and corruption that can help clever despots shore up their position. Some dictators also thrive on the political loneliness we inflict and in some cases appear to seek more of it from us. The pariah treatment suits Bashar Assad, Kim Jong-il, Robert Mugabe, and SLORC just fine. Fidel Castro is another dictator who has flourished in isolation. Every time the United States considers lifting its embargo, Castro unleashes a provocation designed to ensure that we don't normalize relations. It was a disappointment, but no surprise, to learn that the Cuban dictator was in "stable" condition after surgery this week. With our help, Castro has been in stable condition for 47 years. }}

^ US didn't sanctioned Iraq and Iran back in 1950s~early 1980s, also NK wasn't sanctioned since 1950s either.
North Korea was able to sell their weapons to any countries on earth when they didn't have revealed their nuke development program.

The reason the U.S. and South Korea do not want to give food aid is due to the fact that North Korea hoards it for their military and elites. What US/SK want to do is to monitor the aid to confirm that it goes to the everyday, average person in North Korea. But in the past, the North has not allowed this and instead chooses to funnel it to the military/elites. The average citizen may get a meager amount or none at all. That's why most countries have stopped donating. They WANT TO HELP, but they want to make sure it gets to the ordinary people.

These sanctions are working because now, the NK military is weak. They have no food. It is only a matter of time before Kim Jong Il capitulates to South Korea's very fair demands. The people are getting angry and losing in faith in their supposedly great leader. This will open up room for South Korea to take control over North Korea. Because the North Korean people see the incompetence of their leadership and awakening to the prosperity/better standards of living in the South. After all, North Koreans are immigrating to South Korea, so it makes sense that South Korea takes control of the whole peninsula.

{{the United States has sanctions against:

-Colombia, no drug-related exports, since 1972
-Ivory Coast, since 1986
-Cuba, since 1962
-Democratic Republic of the Congo, since 1998
-Iran, since 1979
-Republic of the Congo
-Somalia, since 1990 (supplies arms to the Transitional Federal Government, but no general trade.)
-Myanmar, since 1997
-North Korea, since 1950
-Sudan, since 2002
-Syria, since 1986

Economic Interaction with the United States (NK)

The United States imposed a near total economic embargo on North Korea in June 1950 when North Korea attacked the South. U.S. sanctions were eased in stages beginning in 1989 and following the Agreed Framework on North Korea's nuclear programs in 1994. U.S. economic interaction with North Korea remains minimal, and North Korean assets frozen since 1950 remained frozen. In January 2007, pursuant to UN Security Council Resolution 1718, the U.S. Department of Commerce issued new regulations prohibiting the export of luxury goods to North Korea. Many statutory sanctions on North Korea, including those affecting trade in military, dual-use, and missile-related items and those based on multilateral arrangements, remain in place. Most forms of U.S. economic assistance, other than purely humanitarian assistance, are prohibited. North Korea does not enjoy "Normal Trade Relations" with the United States, so any goods manufactured in North Korea are subject to a higher tariff upon entry to the United States. At this time, goods of North Korean origin may not be imported into the United States either directly or through third countries, without prior notification to and approval from the Office of Foreign Assets Control.}}

I've asked, and have yet to see, proof or links of US sanctions against the DPRK importing food.

Exactly. Sanctions do not work. If it worked, we'd have a peaceful world today. How many years do you need to prove that sanctions do nothing? 10? 20? 40 years? How many people die in that time while you wait for the sanctions to work? What exactly are you accomplishing other than killing starving children?



Dumb argument. How do you expect the North Koreans to pay for said food if they're not allowed to trade? It matters little if there are no sanctions on food if the sanctions aren't lifted; they will not be able to get the foreign exchange reserves to pay for the food anyway.

Who's stopping them to trade? They're trading with China and other countries. Just because the US and SK doesn't want to trade with them, since they bombed South Korea and killed South Korean people, is that America's fault? The thing is, North Korea made their own bed. They even stopped their own people from trading food with each other. What makes you think North Korea is interested in trading anything with anybody? That is, if they have anything to trade.

If North Korea wants foreign investors then they have to change, and only they can change themselves. Stop being xenophobic, open up their economy, stop with blocking the UN and other aid workers from helping, let the international aid get monitored, stop diverting food to the elites and military, stop firing missiles at neighbors, and stop with nuclear threats. Too much to ask? Their own grossly mismanaged policies are their own doings, it's no one else's fault.

agreed. sanctions and famine crippled their economy for decades now. and they are not like ME that rich in resources to satisfy global economy and to import food to feed its entire population. sustaining and upgrading military capacities that match her rivals is their only survival method. selling their WMD techs were their only bargain to offer while the US wants their regime to change. no one wins here while NK ppl are starving to death.

Starving means weak defensive people. Isn't that the aim when dealing with foes?

United States has a unilateral sanctions against North Korea, on weapons export (especially to the Middle East), and North Korean money laundry from ill gotten money like drug peddling. As well, United States forbids Americans from trading with North Korea. But there is no UN sanctions against North Korea since the Chinese vetoes everything against NK. And there are no international coordinated sanctions against North Korea as there was against South Africa. Any country who wants to trade with North Korea can freely do so. So I'm not sure what "sanctions" against North Korea do you have such a beef with? If North Korea is not interested in trading in peaceful goods with other nations, who's fault is that?

Actually sanction do worked for many.
If NK was allowed to trade then they will sell their missiles and nukes to bunch of rouge states.
Even with no trade sanction imposed on NK, North Koreans will still starve anyway.

It was NK who brought their own bad luck because NK regime spent all the money on their military rather than developing economy and handing out foods to their people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O33sfN00oDk

<<South Korea has admitted it fired artillery shells that triggered an early morning clash with North Korea. However it says it was part of a military drill and denied it was directed at the North. Earlier Seoul blamed the North for what it called an unprovoked shelling of its island. Pyongyang claimed the South had violated its maritime border during the military drills. Seoul has since threatened its neighbour with what it called 'enormous retaliation'. Russia's foreign ministy said the clashes were unacceptable and called on both sides to show restraint.>>




http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pac...4036698509.html

<<A North Korean diplomat has said that his country will resume talks on its nuclear programme only when all international sanctions have been lifted.

Choe Jin-su, the North Korean envoy to China, said the sanctions were "an expression of distrust" between Pyongyang and Washington, and cautioned that the US must also agree to peace treaty talks.

"Only concluding a peace treaty can eradicate the hostile relations between the [North] and the United States and rapidly and actively advance denuclearisation of the Korean peninsula," Choe said in a rare briefing in Beijing on Tuesday.>>



which country are you referring to?

Well, look around.
Rouge states deserved tobe sanction, and it's working effectively well.
Sanction works because it cripples rouge states without firing single bullets.

Why are you so dismissive of South Korean explanations, yet take North Korean mouth pieces as truth? If you lived in North Korea right now, you would not be able to write what you are writing.

ok so WHICH country? give us an example.