A RECORD OF INTERNET EXCHANGES WITH HIGHLIGHTS AND COMMENTS
Del vs. elle

The purpose of this document is to illustrate how some people who on the Internet go as far as blaspheming to support their arrogant arguments about Islam. (Highlights will be by Bold Italics.)

QUOTE (avisitor @ Jun 15 2011, 03:06 AM)
I'm tired of your arguments and your definitions.
You're attacking Islam but your not attacking the followers of Islam.
They are one and the same. No followers, no religion.
No more please. All I get from you is a headache.
You have spent way too much time analyzing this to the point of futility.

Reply by elleXO
“avisitor: Let me inform you this: I never attack Islam or Muslims or INSULT THEM. NEVER! But I discuss Islam with full knowledge of Islamic ideology and philosophy. You seem very naive about Islam, so you need to study Islam to be able to understand what I am saying. Until you know all about Islam you will always be gullible to biased views about Islam. avisitor, I challenge anyone who knows more about Islam to correct me and tell me which of my quotations or views of Islam are incorrect. If I am wrong, I will retract and apologise. Isn't that fair? There is very little that a Muslim can teach me about Islam. The challenge stands to all reading my posts. But be prepared to support it with evidence.

If you cannot comprehend what I say about Islam, why don't you simply avoid reading MY POSTS. AVOID ANY THING THAT SUGGESTS elle wrote it. That will reduce your stress level, and you won't need to insult me. But if you want to learn my views about Islam, you are welcome to participate in civil discussions anytime.”

QUOTE (avisitor @ Jun 15 2011, 10:05 PM)
“Insult you?? I have gone out of my way to not insult you.
Hmm, you may have taken offense at my words but there have been no insults.
Possibly, you may have mis-interpreted my words to suit your facts???
Seems to be very popular thing to do to the words of the religious books.

Let's see, your bias views about Islam hasn't swayed me one way of the other.
Guess I must not be as gullible as you think I am.
Wrong?? No, I don't think you believe yourself to be wrong. And, it would take Mohammed or Allah himself to
change your views about Islam. Cause they are like the mountains ...
sunk in the very mantle of your world which is your mind.

Chutzpah responded:
“Hmm, avoid anything elleXO writes about Islam ... I think I have been doing that for the most part.”

Hi avisitor, allow me to intrude. I am sure like you, we rather seek the truth than base our understanding on biased and incorrect opinion, wouldn't you agree? For instance, I am rather good when it concerns Catholicism having studied it and defending it for some years now. I was prompted by many anti Catholic cousins, friends and my own brother, who often berated me for attending Mass. So I decided to read up and study about the Church, her history, her Apostolic tradition, her doctrines, her developements and the Bible. I read up on all Catholic and anti Catholic sites, books etc. This is how we seek the truth by searching on both sides of the fence.

I am not siding with elleXO, but so far his posts are all based on the Koran and the Hadiths, so it can not be wrong. I did suggest that you read up on both Islamic and anti Islamic sites to gain a better understanding on Islam. By avoiding any particular site or writing, you are in fact doing a disservice to yourself, don't sell yourself short. Of course the decision is all yours and I hope you choose the correct one for yourself. My opinion is elleXO does a great service for those who wants to know about Islam and Muslims.”

elle replied:
“Chutzpah, Thank you for your kind comments. Like you, studying pro- and anti-Catholic sites to get a balanced perspective about Catholicism, I have spent years studying the pros- and cons- of: The Holy Quran, the Hadiths, Sunni, Shia, Ahmadiyya, Sufism, Ishmali, Indonesian, Hizb ut Tahrir, Muslim Brotherhood, Christianity, Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, and written articles on all of them. So I do have a good insight into comparative religions. I have not yet met a Muslim who could tell me where I am wrong about the Quran or the Hadiths or Islam or Ahmadiyya yet.

But when I use my non-Muslim sounding "non de plume" to write I am looked down on because of it. I do have an Arab sounding non de plume that I use sometimes. Nevertheless, I have revealed many facts to Muslims that they were never even aware of because they have not studied Islam as thoroughly as I have. In particular, from the HADITHS, many revelations have simply FLOORED MUSLIMS. Let me just repeat one short story on this site that most Muslims do not know about and keep on telling us differently.

"Noliving" said:
QUOTE
QUOTE (elleX0 @ May 5 2011, 03:51 AM)
For any Indonesian or anyone else for that matter to criticise the FPI and their aims and ambitions means they are against Allah.

(Noliving)"No they are not against Allah, they are against FPI. FPI is an violent group that attacks/intimidates and kills innocent people and attacks and destroys their places of worship."


Reference: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...p;#entry4789234

"Noliving" a Muslim, is convinced that ALLAH SAID that Muslims do not kill "innocent women and children."

My reply to "Noliving" is Quoted here for Muslims and non-Muslims and is from the Hadiths:
Only Muslims can be INNOCENT, ALL OTHERS ARE INFIDELS AND ARE NOT INNOCENT

DUALISM IN ISLAM: narrated 'ABDULLAH'

During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's apostle disapproved the killing of women and children. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 52, No. 257)

However, there are certain other narration's that permit the killing of women and children, specifically during Muslim raids where they attack unsuspecting victims at night:

"THEY ARE FROM THEM"

Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. Women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, " The institution of Hima (protection/preservation) is invalid except for Allah and His Apostles." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.4, Book 52, No. 256)

i.e. They are all the same---both the women and children are nothing more than pagans! (they are of Kafirs and are kafirs.)

So WOMEN AND CHILDREN OF KAFIRS CAN NEVER BE INNOCENT- These words are from the mouth of the Prophet Muhammad. REMEMBER THAT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. PLEASE!

This clearly illustrates where the depth of my knowledge of Islamic literature has PUT TO REST what Muslims promulgate that Allah has instructed Muslim warriors not to kill innocent kafir women and children. A kafir can never be innocent as they have rejected Allah. It has taken a verse of the Hadith to prove the point. A fact little known by most Muslims and highlighted by a non-Muslim.
This illustrates, if you wish to prove me wrong about Islam, you better know your Islam well, damn well. I have spent years studying it as a free-thinker adult researcher not in a Madrassah.”

DEL REPLIES:

“Internet is a great thing. But it also produces a lot of bad things. One example being youtube postings, the other example so-called experts who learn about religions from already biased sites. A true Muslim knows that the True Islam is learned in the mosque, not on the internet.

what is really true Islam?

A True Muslim knows the Quran is the foundation of Islam. it advocates tolerance and peace, but you should submit/believe in god. The Quran also tells them to live in peace with Christians and Jews. If you read the Quran correctly, you could say that a Muslim is a person who submits to god. This also includes Christians and Jews at that time, possibly even other religions (but in that time and area these were the most dominant religions). A true Muslim will respect other religions and know that they are the same, believers in god. Also, you will read in the Quran that Jews and Christians will be rewarded.

Hadiths, additional notes to the Quran

In addition to the Quran there are the Hadiths. Some of the Hadiths are a great addition to the Quran. For example the Hadiths that describe the five pillars. They basically create the cultural identity of a Muslim. They show how a Muslim should live. They don’t necessarily support the religion, but more the arab culture of that time. For example, there is nother really specific in the Qur’an that eathing pig is bad and you should be circumcised. But in that time, the preperation of meat of the pig wasn't good enough to eradicate all the bacteria that lives in the pig's meat. Biologists know that the pig houses some nasty bacteria. Circumcision is a lot healthier, because it prevented a lot of sicknesses. So these verses were more for the peoples health. You can say, they were doctor's notes.

weak and false verses in the Hadiths, a True Muslim knows to ignore these

Anyways, in the hadiths you also have a lot of weak and false verses. They call them dhaif (weak) and maudhu/mawdoo (false). Lot of verses that are quoted by critics and radical Muslims are from the Hadiths written by the Imam Al-Bukhari and Imam Muslim. A lot of their verses are seen by the Muslim wrold as dhaif (weak) and maudhu (False.)
A true Muslim knows that the Quran is the foundation of Islam and they should live their life by this book and look at the Hadiths with the Quran in mind. This is what they learn at the Mosque! Here are also some verses from the Quran about the Hadiths:

quran about these hadiths, why the True Muslim knows how to ignore the wrongs verses and why are the verses still there?

The Quran contains a prophecy for the fabrication of Hadith by the Prophet's enemies:
"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet human and jinn devils to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications." 6:112

The Quran also confirms that it is in accordance with God's will that the fabrication of the Hadith was allowed to happen in order to serve as criteria for exposing the true believers from the hypocrites. Those who are attracted to and uphold Hadith are proven to be false believers. This can easily be explained by the fact that true believers are satisfied with God alone. They are satisfied with God's words alone and with God's Law (Quran) alone. They believe the words of God which describe the Quran as complete and fully detailed, and therefore they do not need any other source. They obey God's command to uphold no source of religious law besides the Quran:

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."6:114-115

On the other hand, false believers are not satisfied with the Quran being the only source of law, thus they seek other sources:

"This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions." 6:113

Some Hadith scholars tried to imply that Muhammed changed his view about writing the hadiths. However, the following hadith, which was reported 30 years after the death of the Prophet, confirms that the Prophet Muhammed never authorized the writing of the hadiths since the time he told his followers not to write but the Quran..

‘’Zayd Ibn Thabit (The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his hadith".

and...

These Hadiths imply that God suddenly had a change of mind. Instead of being tolerant and peaceful, they should be violent. We should look at the history of these writers. They were rulers and needed these verses to be able to use war and abuse women. (and until today the arab culture isnt very women friendly). They ridiculed god with their hadiths. Basicly saying god can be wrong, by suddenly make him change his opinion.

Some Muslim Scholars will say the verses aren't dhaif or maudhu. But you should keep in mind that these scholars are friends or family of the rulers of an Arab country. If you take away these verses, a Muslim government will lose her religious right to use warfare or any other kind of violence to their own or other people.

Some critics will say that the god of Islam isn't the same god as of other abrahamic religions, but the Moon god. (thinking that aslong as they pray to another god, we can use warfare on believers who believe in another god) The verse they will use, is a verse of Bukhari. where it says that believers can see him every night as the moon. THIS IS AGAINST the Quran, where you will find verses which tell no Human can't see god, just like you find in the bible.

Elle never has been to a Mosque, probably never spoken with a Muslim in real life. So how could he know what true Islam is? Will he reply me? Will he use capitalized letters against me like he is the messiah of truth? I doubt so..

But most importantly, does he know that saying “terrorists are the true Muslims” is evil?

My opinion about religion in general, nothing about Islam here, but more on topic

I believe there is not just one right religion, but they are all right. Why? Lets take Christianity or the Jewish. Both Religions were introduced at a certain time and they never had the change to reach all the people in the world. If they are right, the people that never came in contact with these religions never had a fair change. They never heard about that message from that certain religion, so does that make them automatically doomed? No, of course not. If you look at the history of religion, you can see that before the Jews or Christianity there were other religions, that also know a virgin birth. They also were exclusive to a certain area in the world. But they all had the same message, believe in god and don't do bad ( don't do things god don't want, like obey the ten commandments and never turn to Satan). In the bible, torah and the Quran, you will also read that god is against idolatry. If you look at Buddhism, i believe that Buddha said that he did not want people to idolize him in the form of a statue.

Basically, everyone has had a fair change to know about god, but in a form of another religion or philosophy. But they all have the same message. People who don't understand this, aren't necessarily wrong. People who think their religion is the right one, aren't necessarily wrong. But people who think they are the only right ones and should use force on others to make them believe the same, are wrong, because this goes against their own teachings. Maybe this is just a test made by him? “

Analysis of Del’s misinformation
In Del’s attempts to discredit what I have said he has had to dissimulate (Taqiyya) about Islam and I will show it here.

(1) Del said, “A true Muslim knows that the True Islam is learned in the mosque, not on the internet.”
My Comment: He is very Wrong. I believe that 99.9% Muslims learn about Islam from the home environment and from Islamic schools (Madrassah.) They may be exposed in adult life to some of the rituals and sermons from the Mosque, but by then their basic understanding of Islam has already been formed in school, and from their peers by the time they are adults at 16 or 18 years of age. Adult education beyond a Madrassah is normally through reading and study of Islamic literature from Library or from the Internet Library. Why scorn the Internet Library? Islamic knowledge is not confined to Mosques in this modern age.

(2) Del said, “A True Muslim knows the Quran is the foundation of Islam. it advocates tolerance and peace, but you should submit/believe in god.”
My Comment: Does Del mean that Islamic foundation is confined to the Quran? If so it is misinformation again. Islam is based on the Quran, the Sunnah, the Sira, the Hadiths, the
Sharia and the traditions. And a Muslim has to submit to the ONE and ONLY ilah, Allah, and no other. This is the exclusivity of Islam.
If one accepts abrogation by Muhammad, i.e.,
In chapter 2:106, the Qur’an plainly indicates,
"Such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof."
Then Del’s statement of “it (Islam) advocates tolerance and peace, is TOTALLY FALSE. I have not been able to find verses in the Quran to support this, I see this instead that abrogates all other pre-Medina verses:
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters(non-Muslims) wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...
So Del’s claim is totally misleading and is a lie.

(3) Del said, “A true Muslim will respect other religions and know that they are the same, believers in god. Also, you will read in the Quran that Jews and Christians will be rewarded.”

My Comment: A total misinformation again. The first Pillar of Islam is the Shahadah.
“The Shahadah, which is the basic creed or tenet of Islam: "'ašhadu 'al-lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa 'ašhadu 'anna muħammadan rasūlu-llāh", or "I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah."
Del is attempting to say that Muslims worship the same god as the Jews and the Christians. But Jews and Christians did not have Muhammad as the Messenger of Allah. Moses was the messenger of Judaism and Jesus the messenger of the Christian God. Then it is inexplicable that Allah has said this about Jews and Christians:

Qur'an 2:61 "Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Jews and they were visited with Allah's wrath."
Qur'an 5:59 "Say: 'People of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before?' Say: 'Shall I point out to you something much worse than this by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom He transformed into apes and swine."
Qur'an 2:64 "But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you."
Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."
Qur'an 33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."
Ishaq:250 "The bestial transformation occurred when Allah turned Jews into apes, despised."
Qur'an 59:14 "The Jews are devoid of sense. There is a grievous punishment awaiting them. Satan tells them not to believe so they will end up in Hell."
Ishaq:254
Qur'an 2:96 "We will not remove a Jew from the punishment. They know the shameful thing that awaits them."
Qur'an 4:55 "Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!"
Qur'an 88:1 "Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring."

Qur'an 5:17 "Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, 'The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.'"
Qur'an 5:51 "Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other."
Qur'an 5:72 "They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: 'God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.' But the Messiah only said: 'O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.'"

Qur'an 88:1 "Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring."
Qur'an 9:29 "Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low." [Another translation says:] "pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection."
Ishaq:552 "The Quraysh had put pictures in the Ka'aba including two of Jesus and one of Mary. Muhammad ordered that the pictures should be erased."
Qur'an 5:14 "From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done."
Qur'an 5:15 "O People of the Book! There has come to you Our Apostle, revealing to you much that you used to hide in your Scripture, suppressing and passing over much. There has come to you from Allah a (new) light (Muhammad) and a clear Book [the Qur'an]."
Qur'an 5:17 "...Say (Muhammad): 'Who then has the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary, his mother, and everyone else on earth?"

If you can convince me that after all those Islamic verses, that Allah is the same god as the God of Moses or of Jesus, then you are a better convincer than I gave you credit for. As far as I can see the reward for Jews and Christians is the Fires of Hell unless they reject their gods and submit to Allah. How can it be possible that they are the same god. Del, which planet are you living on?

When the poster Del saw my quoting the following Hadith, he was determined to prove me wrong and so the following reply issued.

Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. Women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, " The institution of Hima (protection/preservation) is invalid except for Allah and His Apostles." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.4, Book 52, No. 256)

i.e. They are all the same---both the women and children are nothing more than pagans! (they are of Kafirs and are kafirs.)

So WOMEN AND CHILDREN OF KAFIRS CAN NEVER BE INNOCENT- These words are from the mouth of the Prophet Muhammad. REMEMBER THAT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. PLEASE!

It will be noted the Hadith quoted was “Sahih Al-Bukhari” that Del has insinuated was rubbish. This insults Islamic religious text and from a non-Muslim is criminal and libellous.


Del said:
“the Hadiths that describe the five pillars. They basically create the cultural identity of a Muslim. They show how a Muslim should live. They don’t necessarily support the religion, but more the arab culture of that time. For example, there is nother really specific in the Qur’an that eathing pig is bad and you should be circumcised. “

My Comment:
The 5 Religious Duties of Islam (5 Pillars of Islam) Mentioned in the Quran and Listed by Muhammad
The Five Pillars of Islam (Arabic arkan ud-Din, "pillars of the faith") are five religious duties expected of every Muslim. The five pillars are mentioned individually throughout the Qur'an and Muhammad listed them together in the Hadith when he was asked to define Islam.
Within a few decades of Muhammad's death, the five practices were singled out to serve as anchoring points in the Muslim community and designated "pillars." Fulfillment of the Five Pillars is believed to bring rewards both in this life and in the afterlife.
The pillars are acknowledged and observed by all sects of Muslims, although Shi'ites add further obligatory duties, including: jihad, payment of the imam's tax, the encouragement of good deeds and the prevention of evil. ( )
“The Five Pillars of Islam (Arabic: : اركان الدين) are the five practices essential to Sunni Islam. Shi'a Muslims subscribe to the same 5 Pillars plus additional ritual practices which not only includes but overlaps the Five Pillars.”
The 5 Pillars are the fundamental duties of a Muslim. Disregard one and he will have violated Islam. The Hadiths only assist in defining in detail these obligation according to what Muhammad has said in his lifetime. To belittle the Hadiths is no worse than belittling the Quran.

Del said:
“Anyways, in the hadiths you also have a lot of weak and false verses. They call them dhaif (weak) and maudhu/mawdoo (false). Lot of verses that are quoted by critics and radical Muslims are from the Hadiths written by the Imam Al-Bukhari and Imam Muslim. A lot of their verses are seen by the Muslim wrold as dhaif (weak) and maudhu (False.)”

My Comment:
Del is now actually insulting Islamic Hadiths including Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim insinuating that they could be Maudhu (false) Hadiths. This is very misleading and libelous. Thse are the two most respected and honoured Hadiths by the Muslim world and that is why they are listed as Sahih Hadiths.
Del is insinuating that critics and “radical Muslims” are using these Hadiths as false Hadiths to propagate their Jihadism. He is again being extremely mischievous and devious and is insulting all Islam. Jihadism (or extremism) is obvious all over the Quran. Let me quote from the Quran and not the Hadith here:

Qur'an:2:216 "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." [Another translation reads:] "Warfare is ordained for you."
Qur'an:4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward."

Qur'an:33:22 "Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle."
Qur'an:9:111 "Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise). They fight in Allah's Cause, and they slay and are slain; they kill and are killed."
Qur'an:047.033 "Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand."

Of course this is fully supplemented by the Hadiths that I have left out since Del believes they are all false, or so he implies, thus insulting all Muslims who accept the Hadiths.

Del said: “But most importantly, does he know that saying “terrorists are the true Muslims” is evil?”

My Comment:
Again, Del with his innuendo. Again Del is twisting my words to suit his warped mind. I have never said, “terrorists are true Muslims.” But I may have said, “An (Islamic) Jihadist,” or “an Islamic Martyr” is a true servant of Allah. And he has complied with every tenet of Islam according to the Quran. And his will be the reward in Paradise, according to the Quran. There is a lot of difference in what I said and what Del implied.

I believe Del has now been totally discredited in what he has said about Islam because he is not knowledgeable of Islam and he is totally naive in his cognisance of Islam.

Again, Del with his innuendo. Again Del is twisting my words to suit his warped mind. I have never said, “terrorists are true Muslims.” But I may have said, “An (Islamic) Jihadist,” or “an Islamic Martyr” is a true servant of Allah. And he has complied with every tenet of Islam according to the Quran. And his will be the reward in Paradise, according to the Quran. There is a lot of difference in what I said and what Del implied.

hey have been in fact more orthodox and pious Muslims adhering closely to the teachings of the Quran, so much so, that they are actually better Muslims than the ordinary Muslim in the street. These Jihadist have not misunderstood Islam, they have understood it well.

The Quran contains a prophecy for the fabrication of Hadith by the Prophet's enemies:
"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet human and jinn devils to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications." 6:112

This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions." 6:113

Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."

Are you blind to goodness?

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" Surah 2: 106

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Surah 16:101

1) Anyways, you say the god of Islam is the Moongod and not the same god from other abrahamic religions. It is based on one verse, one from Bukhari.
this one:

It should not come as a surprise that the word "Allah" was not something invented by Muhammad or revealed for the first time in the Quran.

The well-known Middle East scholar H.A.R. Gibb has pointed out that the reason that Muhammad never had to explain who Allah was in the Quran is that his listeners had already heard about Allah long before Muhammad was ever born (Mohammedanism: An Historical Survey, New York: Mentor Books, 1955, p.38).

Dr. Arthur Jeffery, one of the foremost Western Islamic scholars in modern times and professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies at Columbia University, notes:

"The name Allah, as the Quran itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa" (Islam: Muhammad, and His Religion, New York: The Liberal Arts Press, 1958, p. 85).

The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god." It is not a foreign word. It is not even the Syriac word for God. It is pure Arabic. (There is an interesting discussion of the origins of Allah, in "Arabic Lexicographical Miscellanies" by J. Blau in the Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. XVII, #2, 1972, pp. 173-190).

Neither is Allah a Hebrew or Greek word for God as found in the Bible. Allah is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity. Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics I:326, T & T Clark, states:

'"Allah" is a proper name, applicable only to their [Arabs'] peculiar God. '

According to the Encyclopedia of Religion:

'"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name . . . corresponding to the Babylonian Bel' (Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117 Washington DC, Corpus Pub., 1979).

For those who find it hard to believe that Allah was a pagan name for a peculiar pagan Arabian deity in pre-Islamic times, the following quotations may be helpful:

"Allah is found . . . in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643).

"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah" (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:302, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1913, Houtsma).

"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic . . . Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" (Encyclopedia off Islam, I:406, ed. Gibb).

"Ilah . . . appears in pre-Islamic poetry . . . By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to Allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" (Encyclopedia off Islam, III:1093, 1971).

"The name Allah goes back before Muhammad" (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:41, Anthony Mercatante, New York, The Facts on File, 1983).

"The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, I:326, Hastings).

To the testimony of the above standard reference works, we add those of such scholars as Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University who has stated:

"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" (The Bible and Islam: or, The Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p. 102).

Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works are generally published by Oxford University, comments:

"The name Allah is also evident in archeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" (The Call of the Minaret, New York: Oxford University Press, 1956, p. 31).

Dr. W. Montgomery Watt, who was Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Edinburgh University and Visiting Professor of Islamic studies at College de France, Georgetown University, and the University of Toronto, has done extensive work on the pre-Islamic concept of Allah. He concludes:

"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god." In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" (William Montgomery Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, p. vii. Also see his article, "Belief in a High God in Pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. 16, 1971, pp. 35-40).

Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:

"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York, Barrons, 1987, p. 28).

According to Middle East scholar E.M. Wherry, whose translation of the Quran is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Ba-al, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabruck: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p. 36).

Astral Religions

In Arabia, the sun god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars such as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah! (Islam, p. 7).

The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god, in addition to other titles that could be given to him.

Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called "the daughters of Allah." These three goddesses were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat.

The daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun goddess were viewed as "high" gods. That is, they were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities.

"Along with Allah, however, they worshipped a host of lesser gods and "daughters of Al-lah" (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:61)".

The Crescent Moon Symbol

The symbol of the worship of the moon god in Arabian culture and elsewhere throughout the Middle East was the crescent moon.

Archaeologists have dug up numerous statues and hieroglyphic inscriptions in which a crescent moon was seated on top of the head of the deity to symbolize the worship of the moon god. In the same fashion as the sun is pictured above the Egyptian deity.

While the moon was generally worshiped as a female deity in the Ancient Near East, the Arabs viewed it as a male deity.

The Gods of the Quraysh

The Quraysh tribe into which Muhammad was born was particularly devoted to Allah, the moon god, and especially to Allah's three daughters who were viewed as intercessors between the people and Allah.

The worship of the three goddesses, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, played a significant role in the worship at the Kabah in Mecca. The first two daughters of Allah had names which were feminine forms of Allah.

The literal Arabic name of Muhammad's father was Abd-Allah. His uncle's name was Obied-Allah. These names reveal the personal devotion that Muhammad's pagan family had to the worship of Allah, the moon god.

Praying Toward Mecca

An Allah idol was set up at the Kebah along with all the other idols. The pagans prayed toward Mecca and the Kabah because that is where their gods were stationed.

It only made sense to them to face in the direction of their god and then pray. Since the idol of their moon god, Allah, was at Mecca, they prayed toward Mecca.

The worship of the moon god extended far beyond the Allah-worship in Arabia. The entire fertile crescent was involved in the worship of the moon.

This, in part, explains the early success of Islam among Arab groups that traditionally had worshiped the moon god.

The use of the crescent moon as the symbol for Islam which is placed on the flags of Islamic nations and on the top of mosques and minarets is a throwback to the days when Allah was worshiped as the moon god in Mecca.

While this may come as a surprise to many Christians who have wrongly assumed that Allah was simply another name for the God of the Bible, educated Muslims generally understand this point.

A Muslim Taxi Driver

During one trip to Washington D.C., I got involved in a conversation with a Muslim taxi driver from Iran.

When I asked him. "Where did Islam obtain its symbol of the crescent moon?" he responded that it was an ancient pagan symbol used throughout the Middle East and that adopting this symbol had helped Muslims to convert people throughout the Middle East.

When I pointed out that the word Allah itself was used by the moon-god cult in pre-Islamic Arabia, he agreed that this was the case.

I then pointed out that the religion and the Quran of Muhammad could be explained in terms of pre-Islamic culture, customs, and religious ideas. He agreed with this!

He went on to explain that he was a university-educated Muslim who, at this point in his life, was attempting to understand Islam from a scholarly viewpoint. As a result, he had lost his faith in Islam.

The significance of the pre-Islamic source of the name Allah cannot be over estimated.

Conclusion

In the field of comparative religions, it is understood that each of the major religions of mankind has its own peculiar concept of deity. In other words, all religions do not worship the same God, only under different names.

The sloppy thinking that would ignore the essential differences which divide world religions is an insult the uniqueness of world religions.

Which of the world religions holds to the Christian concept of one eternal God in three persons? When the Hindu denies the personality of God, which religions do not agree with this? Obviously, all men do not worship the same God, or goddesses.

Note: Christians do not understand "the peculiar concept of one eternal God in three persons" but one eternal God with three major offices or dispensation claims.

The Quran's concept of deity evolved out of the pre-Islamic pagan religion of Allah-worship. It is so uniquely Arab that it cannot be simply reduced to Jewish or Christian beliefs.

Was Allah The Moon God of Ancient Arab Pagan?



By Syed Kamran Mirza



Historical evidences, impartial logic, well versed references and all available circumstantial judgments can very well prove that—(a) Allah name of deity was pre-existed much before the arrival of Islam, (b) Pre-Islamic Pagan peoples worshipped Allah as their supreme deity (moon-god). Allah’s name existed in pre-Islamic Arab. In ancient Arab the Allah was considered to be the supreme God/deity (as Moon-God) and Arab Pagans worshipped Allah before Islam arrived.



Let us examine below some valid questions and answers :

Did the Pagan Arabs in pre-Islamic times worship 360 gods? Yes

Did the pagans Arabs worship the sun, moon and the stars? Yes

Did the Arabs built temples to the Moon-god? Yes

Did different Arab tribes give the Moon-god different names/titles? Yes

What were some of the names/titles? Sin, Hubul, Ilumquh, Al-ilah.

Was the title “al-ilah” (the god) used as the Moon-god? Yes

Was the word “Allah” derived from “al-ilah?” Yes

Was the pagan “Allah” a high god in a pantheon of deities? Yes.

Was he worshipped at the Kabah? Yes.

Was Allah only one of many Meccan gods? Yes

Did they place a statue of Hubul on top of the Kabah? Yes.

At that time was Hubul considered the Moon-god? Yes.

Was the Kabah thus the “house of the Moon-god”? Yes.

Did the name “Allah” eventually replace that of Hubul as the name of the Moon god? Yes.

Did they call the Kabah the “house of Allah”? Yes.

Were al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat called “the daughters of Allah”? Yes.

Yusuf Ali explains in fn. 5096, pg. 1445, that Lat, Uzza and Manat were known as “the daughters of God [Allah]”

Did the Qur’an at one point tell Muslims to worship al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat? Yes. In Surah 53:19-20.

Have those verses been “abrogated” out of the present Qur’an? Yes.

What were they called? “The Satanic Verses.”



The variable names (Sin, Hubul, llumquh, Al-ilah) of moon god were used by various tribes of pagan Arabs. Pagan god SIN was the name of Moon-god.





Who is actually Allah?



According to Islamic Theologians (Mullahs, Maulana, Moulavis, etc.), or Islamic teachings-- Allah is the supreme God or creator who (suddenly one day?) talked or introduced Himself with Prophet Muhammad through an Angel named Gabriel, disclosing the truth that it is the Allah who created everything in the universe. Surprisingly, Qur’an never defines the word “Allah” as to who actually Allah was or what was the relation of Allah with pagans. I believe, 99% percent of Muslims do believe that—Allah’s name was invented or started right from the time when Gabriel disclosed the truth (?) to Prophet Muhammad in the cave of Hira Parvat (Mountain) and gave Muhammad the Quran. They believe that before this truth was revealed—pagan Arabs were in the total darkness (Andhakar Zuug) and they used to worship various puppet goddess and that the pagans were very evil people. I can bet on this fact that no mullahs ever told us the real truth, neither they believe this clean truth that “Allah” was in fact a pre-existing deity in pagan Arabia. What a hypocrisy?



Some important factors which will suggest that the name“Allah” was already in use by Pagans as their chief God/deity:



(A) In pre-Islamic days, that Muslims call the Days of ignorance, the religious background of the Arabs was pagan, and basically animistic. Through Moon, Sun, Stars, Planets, Animals, wells, trees, stones, caves, springs, and other natural objects man could make contact with the deity. At Mekka, “Allah” was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet’s tribe. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. These three daughters of Allah (there is a Quranic verse about them) were considered very powerful over all things. Therefore, their intercessions on behalf of their worshippers were of great significance.

(B) Arabs used to give their children names such as—Abdullah (slave of Allah). Clean proof was the fact that, Muhammad’s father’s name was “Abdullah”. Logical analogy here is—had there been no “Allah” in pre-Islamic Arab, there could be no Abdullah or slave of Allah in Arabia.

© Even today, in the entire Arab World, not only Muslims but all other non-Muslim (Jews, Christians, Sabians, Bahai, an atheist etc.) Arabs says—“Ya Allah” as the expression of surprise or unhappiness/sorrow.

(D). Albert Hourani’s statement: “The Islamic name used for God was “Allah”, which was already in use for one of the local Gods (it now used by Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians as the name of God (A history Of Arab people by Albert Hourani, 1991, page-16, Belknap press of Harvard University, USA)



History tells us two theories of Allah’s existence in and around the Kaba Sharif: (1) Pagans used to call the largest Statue amongst the 360 deities as ALLAH—whom they used to consider the chief/supreme deity (god). Or, (2) Pagan Arabs used to worship 360 deities inside Kaba Sharif, and they used to consider them different smaller deities under the total control of a single most powerful chief deity called “ALLAH” who was invisible (Nirakar) and was the all-powerful, all-knowing, and totally unknowable.

TUESDAY, JULY 7, 2009

Mohammad and the First Commandment
Exodus 20:2-6

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
6but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

WHO IS THE GOD OF THE BIBLE

Yahweh is the actual name of God. In Exodus 3:13 when Moses asked, "who should I tell the Israelites is sending me?" God answered him and said, "YHWH"" or "Yahweh," which means "I Am" in Hebrew. Yahweh's name is given nearly 7000 times in the Bible. "God" isn't a name; it's just a word, one derived from the German, "Gott." It can apply to any false or pagan "deity." By not using Yahweh's name and using, instead, the generic word "God," we are contributing to the deception that we all worship the same God and that Allah is just another word for God. In actuality, "ilah," is the Arabic word for God, and Allah is the name of Muhammad's god. Allah is never mentioned once in the Bible.

WHAT DOES THE FIRST COMMANDMENT MEAN:

Do not have any gods before Me. Do not represent (me [Yahweh]) by any carved statue or picture or anything in the heaven above or the earth below or in the water below the land. Do not bow down to or worship them."

WHO IS ALLAH:

Allah was the name of the principal though not the only deity in pre-Islamic pagan Mecca. He stood supreme over and above all the other gods just as the Ka'ba was pre eminent among the other sanctuaries - also called Ka'ba(s) - of Arabia. He was Lord of Mecca.

In reality, Allah is NOT the God of Israel, but the PERSONAL NAME of the 'divine spirit' that according to the beliefs of the pagan Arabs,RESIDED in the Black Stone meteorite - embedded in the wall of the Ka'ba - that was VENERATED by the pagan Arabians long before Muhammad and his Quran.

The Allah of pagan Arabia was only the NAME (not a TITLE) of the supreme god at the head of their Pantheon of gods and goddesses similar to Jove/ Jupiter or Zeus in the pantheons of the gods of the Romans and the Greeks.

Just as Zeus and Aphrodite were NOT the One and Only God of Israel, neither was Allah.

Here is a good video about who Allah is -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkrgObVwTSc...re=channel_page


HOW MOHAMMAD BROKE THE FIRST COMMANDMENT:

Mohammad (PBUH) worshipped Allah, not Yahweh, the god of Moses and the Israelites. Furthermore, all of Islams rituals performed (today) by devoted Muslims in the name of Allah are connected to the pagan worship that existed before Islam. Pagans practices of the Pilgrimage of Kabah once a year–the Fast of Ramadan, running around the Kabah seven times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down two hills, throwing stones at the devil, snorting water in and out the nose, praying several times a day toward Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc. are strictly followed by Muslims today. Nobody can deny the fact that, all the above rituals of Muslims hajj today existed well before the arrival of Islam.

This clearly contravenes the First COmmandment in Exodus.

So what else did Mohammad (PBUH) do to break the First Commandment? Ishaq explains:

Ishaq:530 "The Prophet stroked and kissed the Black Stone. Then he went out trotting around the Ka'aba as did his Companions. When the Temple concealed Muhammad from the Meccans and he had "istalama" (which means to embrace, stroke, and kiss) the southern corner of the Ka'aba, he walked to "istalama" the Black Stone a second time. Then he "harwala" (which means to trot or prance swinging the shoulders side to side in a gloating manner) similarly for three circumambulations. He walked the remainder of them. The Apostle only did this to show off in front of the Quraysh.

Mohammad's (PBUH)actions are also confirmed in the Hadith, where Muslims, following Mohammads (PBUH) perfect example, by praying to the Black Stone of the Kaba (which is an idol):

It is reported in Bukhari (1520), Sahih Muslim (1720) that Umar approached the Black Stone and kissed it. Then he said: “I know that you are a mere stone that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) kissing you, I would have never kissed you."

SO Mohammad (PBUH) did not pray to the Moses' God, performed all of these pagan rituals and misrepresented that it was from Moses' God, and thus ultimately, broke the First Commandment.

ISLAMIC REBUTTAL:

The Islamic rebuttal can best be summed up by the Quran where it states what would have happened to Mohammad (PBUH) if he supposedly misrepresented Yahweh:

Noble Qur'an 69:43
"This is a Message sent down from the Lord of men and jinn. And if the Messenger were to attribute any false words to Us, We would seize him and cut his aorta. None of you would be able to stop Us. So truly this is a Message for those who fear. Yet We know that there are those who deny and belie (this Qur'an). But truly this (Qur'an) revelation is a cause of sorrow and anguish; the nemesis of unbelievers. Verily, it (this Qur'an) is an absolute truth."

COUNTER REBUTTAL:

Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the source of the Qur'an, and he can prove that his god is real. Proof of that, however, isn't his ability to do miracles, or say things that are intelligible. No. The proof is that his imaginary god hasn't sliced his aorta. Imagine that. Since the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus haven't slit my throat, do you suppose they're gods, too?

So how do these ranting proof it is another god? "Allah" is the same word used by Christian Arabs and Jewish Arabs in their Bible, centuries before Islam came. And why they see Jesus as the messenger of Allah, if it's from another god.

Allah means the only one to be worshipped. If Christians and Jews worship the god of jesus, the Muslims see as the messenger of Allah as well, what is the problem? They submit to the same god.

It is not possible to reason with people who just throw scriptural texts at you in reply.

It depends on how the texts are used in reply isn't it?

Jesus never had any use for texts, he spoke from the heart;
only the mentally learned (Pharisees) used texts.

He taught from heart but Jesus also used scriptures in many of his teaching.

Lao Tsu said: Those who know are not learned and the learned do not know.

Like monkeys?

This is why they throw out texts like monkeys.

Well you said it, like monkeys. Unlike you, monkey has no use for text. Do you throw out your texts like monkeys?

There are irreconcilable fundamental differences in these 3 Abrahamic religions that interfaith is not possible.

Christians and Jews worship God of Israel, while Muslims don't. And Jews and Muslims don't worship Jesus, while Christians do.

The Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith also mentions God and Jesus, but like Islam's version, Christianity rejects both of their interpretation of who God and Jesus are because they contradict Bible. Likewise Judaism rejects NT and Quran.

Chutzpah, I have given up any hope of intelligent discussions with some people here. Some people speak from the wrong orifice.

There are irreconcilable fundamental differences in these 3 Abrahamic religions that interfaith is not possible.

Christians and Jews worship God of Israel, while Muslims don't. And Jews and Muslims don't worship Jesus, while Christians do.

The Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith also mentions God and Jesus, but like Islam's version, Christianity rejects both of their interpretation of who God and Jesus are because they contradict Bible. Likewise Judaism rejects NT and Quran.

The Quran contains a prophecy for the fabrication of Hadith by the Prophet's enemies:
"We have permitted the enemies of every prophet human and jinn devils to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications." 6:112

This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions." 6:113

Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt. The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."

Why would a self proclaimed expert of Islam test his theory in Asiafinest and not in a credible forum about Islam?

He taught from heart but Jesus also used scriptures in many of his teaching.

Well you said it, like a monkey. Unlike you, monkey has no use for text. Do you throw out your texts like monkeys?

You don't think Asiafinest is a credible forum about Islam?
Don't outsiders have objective viewpoints that are inaccessible to members of a religion?

It is about Islam and Muslims are the believers of Islam. There are no Muslims here, atleast none that talk to Elle, to defend or agree with Elle's theory. Would be fair to let them have their say to right? Am sure educated Muslims looked at certain verses too and questioned why they are there. Just like Christians who looked at certain stories out of the bible and questioned why they are there. Like why did god kill all the innocent children in Sodom and Gomorra or all the children and wives of Job?

Do you think people are inherently good or bad?
Do you feel that people are bad despite their religious beliefs or because of them?

Do you think people are inherently good or bad?
Do you feel that people are bad despite their religious beliefs or because of them?

yeah, worshipping was the wrong word. But they do acknowledge Jesus as a messenger of god.

These differences are there, because if not, they wont be able to get followers to support their political agenda of whoever their religious leader is. And all those religions kinda have the same message. Submit and obey god, tolerate others, god will be the judge of all. The stories are different and some talk of other god or even several gods. But it could be just the same god. If my god told me the others that dont believe in a certain religion are wrong and will be annihilated because of that, i think he sucks and wont serve him. If there is any god, he will judge us by nature, not by what our religion or race is.

You are Christan, do you think the others are wrong for believing what they do? And i talk about the peaceful good ones ofcourse. Or is your religion the only right one?

Bad. Humans lean to the bad side.

Well, i suppose they teach it there. Anyone is welcome to have questions and they will try to answer. I mean, without asking questions, they cant learn. Without learning, no one will convert. :s

Anyways, here, because you asked so nicely.

http://www.gawaher.com/ They even have a subforum for you.
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/index.php
http://islamicboard.com/
http://www.ummah.com/forum/
http://www.islam.com/discussion.asp
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/

Just a simple google search.

Anyways, if you try this. Remember it is their way of life you talk about. People will take offense if you question their way of life and if you overwhelm them with critical posts. So take a humble approach. Pretend you question your own theory and if they say its right, you are right. Dont overwhelm, but start slowly. I will probably get fried there too if i talk like i do with you.

What a ridiculous question. Of course a Muslim is a good Muslim if he sacrifices his life for the good of Islam like those martyrs that blew up the Twin towers in New York. They were Muslim Martyrs attacking decadent and corrupt American Capitalists, and they will be rewarded by Allah in Paradise. But from the American point of view, they were bad because they killed innocent American lives without provocation, and their souls deserves to burn in Hell.
So it depends on how you look at it, from the Islamic perspective or from the non-Islamic perspective.

Why are you fixated on the muslim like a mongoose fixated on the cobra?
I am asking whether you are inherently good or bad?

People are driven by evil to do bad things to other people.
Focus on evil not people.

Because Islam is the biggest threat to human civilisation. if you will pull your head out of the sand to see and recognise.

All I see are people and their natural predisposition to be evil. Satan creates images for you to see and influence you to perceive Islam as a threat. You are possessed by Satan who fills your heart with evil and intoxicates your mind with fear.
Jesus said, violence begets violence. This is how evil seeps from one human to another. Strike me with your hatred, and I
will turn the other cheek. May Allah be with you.

1. Then you believe in the existance of Satan?

2. Do you think the way people are taught has nothing to do with their predisposition?

Chutzpah, I have given up any hope of intelligent discussions with some people here. Some people speak from the wrong orifice.

It is not a matter of belief. I know for a fact Satan exists.
It is not the guy with the horns and pointed tail holding a pitchfork.
It is pure unadulterated evil. And that evil manifests in terrifying human behavior.

No. We are predisposed to be bad. All our teachings purportedly based on good aspirations are rooted in evil.

Cite me one instance where Jesus used scriptures in his teaching.

One of Jesus' strongest statements concerning the Old Testament Law was His affirmation that heaven and earth would pass away before even the smallest portion of a letter (Matt. 5:17-18). Jesus also taught that these fractions of letters would never fail (Luke 16:17). Further, after citing a particular text in Psalm 82:6, Jesus stated that Scripture could not be nullified (John 10:35). These comments are striking reminders regarding the extent to which Jesus thought Scripture spoke the truth.

Regularly, Jesus also demonstrated His trust in the Old Testament by utilizing it as His source for solving theological dis­putes. On more than one occasion, His argument turned chiefly on the significance of a single word in the text. In Mark 12:35-37, Jesus based an important theological point on the second usage of the word "Lord," arguing that the Messiah was more than just the son of David. In the English text of Matthew 22:31-32, Jesus built His case against the Sadducees on the word "am" in order to teach the doctrine of the resurrection of the body, which they rejected. Such confidence in the very words of Scripture is a cru­cial indication of Jesus' high view of their truth.6

On many other occasions, Jesus cited Scripture as a "proof text" while debating His adversaries. During the wilderness temptation, Jesus quoted Old Testament texts in opposition to Satan (Matt. 4:4, 7, 10). Elsewhere, Jesus responded to His detractors by asking them, "Have you not read. . . ?"7 "It is writ­ten. ...", or a similar comment, also served to refute an opposing view.8 In Matthew 22:29, Jesus remarked that an ignorance of Scripture caused the Sadducees to a make a theological error. It seems clear from these uses of Scripture that Jesus considered its contents to be the definitive authority in solving theological issues.

In yet another debate with Jewish leaders, after citing por­tions of the Law and prophets, Jesus appears to refer to the entire Old Testament as the "commandment of God" and "the word of God" (Mk. 7:8-13). Such descriptions indicate that Jesus thought that God was the Authority behind Scripture. It was an inspired text, written for our edification. As such, these writings must be fulfilled (Matt. 26:54; Luke 4:21; John 7:38). Jesus used the Old Testament as a proof text that serves as God's blueprint for cor­rect theology and behavior. It disproved contrary positions. Jesus did not doubt this authority.

Jesus referred to the entire Old Testament both as the Law and the prophets (Matt. 5:17), as well as adding the Psalms (Luke 24:44). By either designation, Jesus indicated that each section was the Word of God. Moses, the author of the Law (Luke 16:31; 24:44), spoke God's words in Exodus 3:6 (Mk. 12:26). David wrote by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in Psalm 110:1 (Mark 12:36). The prophets also spoke God's words because their prophecies of the Christ had to be fulfilled (Luke 24:27, 44).

Taken from garyhabermas.com

Jesus often taught from scriptures, in fact as a Jew, Jesus respect the scriptures which in his time is the Old Testament.

Islam rejects the message of Jesus so they are not acknowledging Biblical Jesus - His message of death and resurrection. That's the center of Christianity faith. Islam and Christianity say complete opposite things of who represents God.

(Quran 4:156) “They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.”

(1 Corinthians 15:16-17) "For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

Differences are essential. If god doesn't have a son, why would he lie before? If god does have a son, why would he say something totally opposite later? If they are all same god, at least there should be harmony in their message, but it's all confusion and disputes. Maybe you are thinking of Universalism. Anyway you can crash course on these 3 religions by looking at their conversion requirements and have better understanding of their major differences.

My religious conviction and my tolerance towards other religions are two separate things. Like I said in my past posts, I don't believe all Muslims are vent on killing everyone. I made that clear on elleX0's accusations towards 2 billion Muslims many times.

Humans have a savage history. We have jails that lock us up, laws that restrain us.
Our religions are testimonies to our evil nature. They threaten us with the misery of
eternal hell should we fail to resist our natural urge to persecute and harm one another.

You say we are bad but how come you feel you are a good guy in this bad world?
(I am not being sarcastic. Look at elle. He sees himself as a good guy.)

It could be very much the same god. In the old bible, torah and Qu'ran they all use the same word to describe god.

i ask you this. There is a good Muslim and a good Christian. They both do the same good acts. Who goes to heaven? Don't say only god knows, what do you think he will do?

Old testament was written in Hebrew (NT in Greek) and His name is Yahweh(Jehovah) - translated 'I Am Who I Am'. God revealed His name to Moses - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” “I AM WHO I AM,” and He said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God is a pretty general word describing a supreme being. It doesn't mean anyone's god could be Zeus or Thor. And it is said that Arab Christians use Allah al-Ab (God the Father) to differentiate from Islamic god. Islam's Allah has 99 names but that specific name is not there. Even Jesus claimed His divinity by saying "Before Abraham existed, I Am." And Jews crucified Him for blasphemy.

1. Allah
2. The Compassionate (al-Rahman)
3. The Merciful (al-Rahim)
4. The King/Sovereign (al-Malik)
5. The Holy (al-Quddus)
6. The Source of Peace (al-Salam)
7. The Giver of Faith (al-Mu'min)
8. The Overall Protector (al-Muhaimin)
9. The Strong (al-`Aziz)
10. The Almighty (al-Jabbar)
11. The Majestic (al-Mutakabbir)
12. The Creator (al-Khaliq)
13. The Maker (al-Bari')
14. The Fashioner (al-Musawwir)
15. The Great Forgiver (al-Ghaffar)
16. The Dominant (al-Qahhar)
17. The Bestower (al-Wahhab)
18. The Provider (al-Razzaq)
19. The Opener, The Reliever (al-Fattah)
20. The All-Knowing (al-`Alim)
21. The Restrainer, The Withholder (al-Qabid)
22. The Extender (al-Basit)
23. The Humbler (al-Khafid)
24. The Exalter (al-Rafi`)
25. The Empowerer (al-Mu`izz)
26. The Humiliator (al-Mudhill)
27. The All-Hearing, The Hearer (al-Sami`)
28. The All-Seeing (al-Basir)
29. The Judge (al-Hakam)
30. The Just (al-`Adl)
31. The Kindly One (al-Latif)
32. The Gracious, The Aware (al-Khabir)
33. The Clement, The Forbearing (al-Halim)
34. The Mighty (al-`Azim)
35. The Forgiving (al-Ghafur)
36. The Grateful, The Appreciative (al-Shakur)
37. The High, The Sublime (al-`Aliyy)
38. The Great (al-Kabir)
39. The Preserver (al-Hafiz)
40. The Protector, The Guardian, The Feeder, The Sustainer (al-Muqit)
41. The Reckoner (al-Hasib)
42. The Sublime One (al-Jali)
43. The Bountiful, The Gracious (al-Karim)
44. The Watcher, The Watchful (al-Raqib)
45. The Responsive, The Hearkener (al-Mujib)
46. The Infinite, The All-Embracing (al-Wasi`)
47. The Wise (al-Hakim al-Mutlaq)
48. The Loving (al-Wadud)
49. The Glorious (al-Majid)
50. The Resurrector (al-Ba`ith)
51. The Witness (al-Shahid)
52. The True (al-Haqq)
53. The Advocate (al-Wakil)
54. The Most Strong (al-Qawiyy)
55. The Firm (al-Matin)
56. The Patron (al-Waliyy)
57. The Praiseworthy (al-Hamid)
58. The Numberer (al-Muhsi)
59. The Commencer (al-Mubdi)
60. The Restorer (al-Mu`id)
61. The Giver of Life (al-Muhyi)
62. The One Who Gives Death (al-Mumit)
63. The Living One (al-Hayy)
64. The Self-Subsisting (al-Qayyum)
65. The Perceiver (al-Wajid)
66. The One (al-Wahid)
67. The Independent (al-Samad)
68. The Powerful (al-Qadir)
69. The Dominant (al-Muqtadir)
70. The Giver (al-Muqaddim)
71. The Retarder (al-Mu'akhkhir)
72. The First (al-Awwal)
73. The Last (al-Akhir)
74. The Manifest (al-Zahir)
75. The Hidden (al-Batin)
76. The Governor (al-Wali)
77. The High Exalted (al-Muta`ali)
78. The Righteous (al-Barr)
79. The Relenting (al-Tawwab)
80. The Forgiver (al-`Afuww)
81. The Avenger (al-Muntaquim)
82. The Compassionate (al-Ra'uf)
83. The Ruler of the Kingdom (Malik al-Mulk)
84. The Lord of Majesty and Bounty (Dhu'l-Jalal wa'l-Ikram)
85. The Equitable (al-Muqsit)
86. The Gatherer, The Collector (al-Jami`)
87. The Self-Sufficient (al-Ghani)
88. The Enricher (al-Mughni)
89. The Bestower (al-Mu`ti)
90. The Withholder (al-Mani`)
91. The Propitious (al-Nafi`)
92. The Distresser (al-Darr)
93. The Light (al-Nur)
94. The Guide (al-Hadi)
95. The Eternal (al-Azali)
96. The Everlasting (al-Baqi)
97. The Heir (al-Warith)
98. The Guide to the Right Path (al-Rashid)
99. The Patient (al-Sabur)

Old testament was written in Hebrew (NT in Greek) and His name is Yahweh(Jehovah) - translated 'I Am Who I Am'. God revealed His name to Moses - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” “I AM WHO I AM,” and He said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God is a pretty general word describing a supreme being. It doesn't mean anyone's god could be Zeus or Thor. And it is said that Arab Christians use Allah al-Ab (God the Father) to differentiate from Islamic god. Islam's Allah has 99 names but that specific name is not there. Even Jesus claimed His divinity by saying "Before Abraham existed, I Am." And Jews crucified Him for blasphemy.

Christianity is salvation by faith. God doesn't save people based on their good works. By God's standard, to be a good and righteous person on his own merit, he has to keep all the 613 law of Moses (including 10 commandments) without ever breaking any of them - 'Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.' And all the people shall say, 'Amen.' - Deut 27:26. And Jesus also said..if you only think about killing someone, you have committed a murder in God's sight.

(Romans 8:3) "The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins."

Islam is salvation by works but only for Muslims. They have no guarantee in salvation, only if you are a good Muslim who prays 5 times a day I guess. Maybe this is where you drew your idea about God and asking me this question about good Muslim and good Christian?

"Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, they will be successful. But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in hell will they abide," (23:102-103).

But unbelievers go to hell anyway, and they count Christians and Jews as unbelievers so further to point out Islam doesn't worship the same God of Bible.

“Surely, the disbelievers will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever. (The torment) will not be lightened for them, and they will be plunged into destruction with deep regrets, sorrows and in despair therein. We wronged them not, but they were the wrongdoers. And they will cry: ‘O Malik! Let your Lord make an end of us’ He will say: ‘Surely, you shall abide forever.’ Indeed We have brought the truth to you, but most of you have a hatred for the truth” (Quran 43:74-78)

(9:30-33) "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no god save Him. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse. He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse."

Why do you say that? Do you go through life thinking everyone is essentially bad and out to get you? If so Why, by that I mean what makes you this way?

I am aware of that. It is in the bible. Also, i got some ''witnesses'' in my family, who btw also don't believe in trinity and crucifixion.
That are a lot of names. But who called him like that? Humans i guess. :P

It doesn't matter for god if you look up to the skies, down to the ground or to Mecca when you pray. You just need to respect him in your way, do good by follow his teachings and in that way you will submit to him. Submit to the good, and you submit to god, no matter what his name is. Submit to the bad and you will submit to Satan.

If you are aware of that, then why are you insisting God of Israel and god of Ishmael are the same because they share the same usage of the word "God" in Arabic? Only similarities in this argument so far between the two religions is that unbelievers will burn in hell.

One of things that convinced me that Jesus is God is that Romans put a mockery sign on His cross saying "Jesus of Nazareth, King of Jews," which spelled out and it reads by first letters YHWH/Yahweh. Another one is in from Old testament Isaiah wrote, "For unto us Son is born and He will be called Almighty God and Everlasting Father," as Bible preaches Jesus created the entire universe because He is the Word of God.

Trinity is difficult to understand. Even Jesus preached God is One and that He is One with the Father (Blasphemy claim to both Judaism and Islam). You have to decide for yourself whether Jesus was a liar or speaking the truth. But Bible says if a prophet says He is from God and is not 100% correct, he should be dismissed. And you see the contradictions in Quran many times like Christians will go to hell or not, or listen to Mosses and Jesus in Torah and Gospel and then say complete opposite things.



Like I said, I don't believe in interfaith nor believe there ever will be unification of these 3 religions without some sort of major conflict to force everyone to submit to it. Jews hate Christians, Muslims hate Zionist Jews, and vise versa. Even Bible is opposed to one world religion afterall (Tower of Babel for example). But I respect whatever or whoever the person decides to believe in and it doesn't bother me if Islam or other religions say I'm going to burn in hell for believing in Christianity, since I don't believe in their religion so it shouldn't matter to me and I won't lose my sleep over it. As far as extremists on any side committing violence against other religions, that's just plain wrong.

Gary Habemas' arguments are not convincing. Let's use our heads and think for ourselves instead of letting others
think for us. If Jesus taught from Jewish scriptures, he would have been a regular rabbi of the times and not singled out for cruxifixion. Jesus criticized the blind following of scriptures and paid for it with his life.

One of things that convinced me that Jesus is God is that Romans put a mockery sign on His cross saying "Jesus of Nazareth, King of Jews," which spelled out and it reads by first letters YHWH/Yahweh. Another one is in from Old testament Isaiah wrote, "For unto us Son is born and He will be called Almighty God and Everlasting Father," as Bible preaches Jesus created the entire universe because He is the Word of God.

It is obvious that you know very little about Christ or the Bible, oh well nevermind...

I know all there is to know about Christ and the Bible. I went to Catholic Schools and
studied to be a Jesuit but went my own way. It's just that your take on Christianity
is different from mine.

All Christians regardless of their denomination know that Christ used scriptures in his teaching because there are many examples of this in the Bible. It is so basic, it is not even a theological dispute that needs to be discussed. To insist that he didn't even after you were given Biblical references is just plain pig headed. So your claimed to be an ex Jesuit whatever that means (as student? as seminarian?) frankly is rather questionable.

If Jesus wasn't pigheaded, they would have let him go. Courage in the face of universal condemnation was what inspired me about Jesus. He had to stand up against the accepted authority of the scriptures, the high priests of his day. And now, you tell me that I must not dispute with the bibilical high priests of today. I cannot, chu. Scared as I am - like Jesus was the garden at Gethsamane - to stand alone against the world, I have to do the right thing also.

If all Christians are correct, this world would not be such a mess.

Good try yi, but the issue here is about your assertion that Christ did not teach from scriptures. Of course you can dispute whatever you like provided you supply evidence to support your case. No one is stopping you for trying to be a martyr least of all moi! But the Bible has several instances where Christ referred to scriptures. Those 'Biblical high priests of today' didn't make this up and nor did I because it is factual, it is in the Bible. Yet you insist being an ex 'Jesuit' and that you 'know all there is to know about Christ and the Bible' hmmm... Is the Bible wrong and you are right?

So before you go on trying to be a martyr to stop all Christians making a mess of this world and 'to stand alone against the world', do enlighten me and those Christians who read this thread, we would be grateful. And there is absolutely no need to be scared or bashful, it is not in keeping with your 'on your face' character which I derive from our exchanges in the Singapore Chat.

Chu, I am not like elleXO and don't need the backing of what other people had said. I can dispute you without mobilizing scriptural authority the way Jesus stood up against scribes, pharisees and lawyers using not divine wisdom but just plain common sense.

Jesus never referred to scriptures as you contend. In fact, he criticized not so much the scriptures of his day, namely the Torah, but the mindless teachings of the rabbis who taught from those scriptures. Even today, Jesus is regarded by the orthodox Jews as a rogue and a rebellious event in their history. Therefore, Jesus and the Jewish scriptures have no connection. What you now consider as scriptures are the various compilations of the Bible that did not exist in Jesus' time. The Bible was created by the early Christians, most notably Paul, and evolved several hundred years after the death of Jesus.

I am not an ex-Jesuit although I went almost all the way to become one. I skipped out just before I took my final priestly vows.



I have no wish to be a matyr or even be a feature of any sort in real life. Like Lao Tsu, I lost faith in humanity and prefer virtual reality here in cyberspace where the madness of men cannot touch me. How I wish Jesus had not come 2000 years ago but is here today. Then he could teach us on the world wide web in safety from physical persecution.

By the way, Christians are not making a mess. They are the mess, as people always are when they live from scriptures instead of from their hearts - spontaneously, moment to moment - like Jesus Christ.