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China preparing for war aginst Vietnam?

Some people have speculated that the troop movements were preparations for an attack on Vietnam in the coming autumn. Maybe it is or maybe it is just a routine exercise as explained here. But if I were planning for an attack on Vietnam I would attack the Vietnamese air force and navy to destroy them totally. Destroying Vietnamese air force and navy isn’t such a difficult task because there are not that many fighters and frigates. Vietnamese air force has some 60 Su-30 and Su-27 fighters plus another 30 Mig-23 and 200 Mig-21 which are obsolete in Russia. This compares to China’s some 600 Su-30, Su-27, J-10, and J-11 plus hundreds of other fighters. There are evidence that China’s fighters are superior in equipment and pilots. So destroying the Vietnamese air force will not be a big problem. China also has many missiles which can be used to blow holes in the runways of air bases and so trap the fighters on the ground. Then cruise missiles can swoop in the blow up the fighters as they sit as well as the missile defenses. Then the Chinese fighter/bombes can come in and mop up the remaining fighters and whatever planes on the air bases. As to the navy, there really isn’t any navy to speak of. Vietnam will be getting a couple of frigates from Russia in 2011 and 2012. It will also get maybe 6 Kilo class submarines from Russia between 2012 to 2016. So it is advantageous for China to destroy the Vietnamese navy now with lower cost. Vietnamese navy now is just some patrol boats probably armed with machineguns. These will probably stay in port and can be hit with missiles fired from Chinese missile boats 100 km away.

Once the Vietnamese air force and navy have been destroyed, Chinese battleships can bombard the Vietnamese island garrisons until they surrender. And without any air force or navy, Vietnam cannot attack Chinese garrisons on these islands.

As China attack and destroy the Vietnamese air force and navy, the Vietnamese army might launch an attack into Guangxi, China. Therefore, it is a good and necessary precaution to deploy Chinese troops in the border area to trap and destroy any attacking Vietnamese invaders.

As Vietnam and the Philippines are stepping up and increasing the number of islands they occupy and the activities to explore for oil and other resources, China can use this as the reason to declare the peace agreement null and void and give them ultimatums to get out of Chinese sovereign islands. At the expiration of the ultimatums, China should just automatically go into war and destroy their air forces and navies and retake China’s sovereign islands.

Time is not on China’s side under the status quo. The longer Vietnam occupies the islands the more they can argue their sovereignty due to effective occupation and control. They can justifiably argue that since China took no forceful actions against their illegal occupation of Chinese sovereign territories, it must be due to the fact that China acquiesced to their occupation and give up on China‘s claim of sovereignty. And China’s argument that it did not attack due to considerations of peace and benevolence would not be accepted by the majority of the international community because that is a ridiculous argument. Also as Vietnam continues to get more fighters and frigates and submarines, it will cost more in equipments and lives for China to destroy their air force and navy. In the end, it is unrealistic to expect Vietnam to automatically leave the Chinese islands. The realistic choices are war or giving up. Since giving up on Chinese sovereign islands is no option the only remaining option is to go to war.

As China steps up preparation for war, Vietnam will surely show some signs of backing down. But this is surely just a ploy to play for time as it gets more fighters and naval vessels from Russia which will increase the cost for China to go to war against them. Therefore, China must make the decision to go to war now. There is simply no other choice.

I would think it's more of an aggressive gesture to encourage Vietnam to back down. Vietnam's military has been rusty since the last 20 years but they do have a strong air defense going for them. Though the VPA has been trying to go for a quality of quantity stance on its military, numbers is another advantage that Vietnam has. Before people say that China's population makes up 1/5th of the world, Vietnam has more troops including reserve and paramilitary for the sole purpose of self-defense. As for the territorial assets, Vietnam occupies 31 of the Spratley Islands and his been keeping a tight grip to my knowledge. Just to be optimistic, I don't think China is willing to invade at such a time like this. To be even more optimistic, I think the United States may play a role in this situation; the United States had a military exercise with Vietnam last year to deal with China specifically.

China will always build up public opinion in the newspapers towards an ultimatum。 There are two phrases from classical texts which China has used in the past:

是可忍孰不可忍？If this is tolerable then nothing is intolerable.
勿谓言之不预也 Do not then say you had no warning of it.


Chinese just don't sneak attack people, so you can be sure these were in fact exercises. (routine or not I don't know)

QUOTE (fireplant @ Aug 9 2011, 08:02 PM)

China will always build up public opinion in the newspapers towards an ultimatum。 There are two phrases from classical texts which China has used in the past:

是可忍孰不可忍？If this is tolerable then nothing is intolerable.
勿谓言之不预也 Do not then say you had no warning of it.


Chinese just don't sneak attack people, so you can be sure these were in fact exercises. (routine or not I don't know)

Here is a Confucian quote:

好仁不好学，其蔽也贼。 Loving benevolence without loving to learn (wisdom), the consequent befuddlement will lead one to become victims of thieves.

China cannot deal with Vietnam from the basis of benevolence without understanding the reality of having to protect its own sovereign territories with force. Otherwise, it will be robbed of its sovereign territories as a fool will be robbed of his personal properties.

Here is another Confucian quote:
君子可欺也，不可罔也. A gentleman can be harmed but cannot be fooled.

This means China should not be fooled into giving up its sovereign territories.

不但不能“博施于民，而能济众”，恐怕还会上当受骗，受小人所陷害，

QUOTE (ComradeDeki @ Aug 9 2011, 07:52 PM)

I would think it's more of an aggressive gesture to encourage Vietnam to back down. Vietnam's military has been rusty since the last 20 years but they do have a strong air defense going for them. Though the VPA has been trying to go for a quality of quantity stance on its military, numbers is another advantage that Vietnam has. Before people say that China's population makes up 1/5th of the world, Vietnam has more troops including reserve and paramilitary for the sole purpose of self-defense. As for the territorial assets, Vietnam occupies 31 of the Spratley Islands and his been keeping a tight grip to my knowledge. Just to be optimistic, I don't think China is willing to invade at such a time like this. To be even more optimistic, I think the United States may play a role in this situation; the United States had a military exercise with Vietnam last year to deal with China specifically.

Just because Vietnam occupies some Chinese islands doesn't mean they belong to it. They still belong to China. Sovereignty is established by first discovery and legal establishment of sovereignty by incorporating it into a nation's administration. China is the first to discover and the first to incorporate these archipelagos into its administrative maps since the time of Han Dynasty and Tang Dynasty respectively. Thereafter China has maintained its sovereignty down to the present day. Therefore, there is no question that China is the sovereign owners of these archipelagos.

Vietnam has a big army in terms of more soldiers but it has a puny air force and navy. It is not necessary to invade Vietnam itself. It is only necessary to destroy Vietnam's air force and navy to make it unable to protect its garrisons on the Chinese islands. Then China can easily bomb the Vietnamese garrisons till they all die or surrender.

The US is having too much trouble with its economy. It must reduce its overbloated military. Many highest ranking American politicians are now insisting that American stop all its wars and stop being world policemen. Given this trend, there is no chance at all that it will fight and die and squander hundreds of billions of dollars to help Vietnam, its former enemy.

This is a good quote and I like your translation too.

Nobody knew if it's Han or Yue people


There's no Hai Nan, only Jiao Zhi (northern Vietnam) was the only place close to the islands

More about Hai Nan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan

Because it's too far away from the capital, Han abandoned it. Li people (Yue tribe) were the native people there and they occupied middle and Southern part of the island

Do you think that during that period, the ruler cared much about a tiny island in the furthest South while there many kingdomds in China fighting each others?
Until Song dynasty then Hai Nan officially is a part of Guang Xi

QUOTE (papen @ Aug 11 2011, 07:42 PM)

Nobody knew if it's Han or Yue people


There's no Hai Nan, only Jiao Zhi (northern Vietnam) was the only place close to the islands

More about Hai Nan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan

Because it's too far away from the capital, Han abandoned it. Li people (Yue tribe) were the native people there and they occupied middle and Southern part of the island

Do you think that during that period, the ruler cared much about a tiny island in the furthest South while there many kingdomds in China fighting each others?
Until Song dynasty then Hai Nan officially is a part of Guang Xi

The map is pointless. It is a map made by some foreign countries in the 20th Century. Of course it does not show the S. China Sea islands. For one thing the islands are out of the map. So it proves nothing. Furthermore, China claims the S. China Sea archipelagos during the Tang Dynasty around 790 AD. So of course even an authentic Chinese map of the Han Dynasty would not have shown the S. China Sea archipelagos as part of China's sovereign territories.

The significance of the Han Dynasty is that these S. China Sea archepelagos were first discovered by the Chinese during the Han Dynasty. It is some 1,000 years later in the Tang Dynasty that they were incorporated officially into the Chinese nation's sovereign territories. Don't confuse the two events.

Below are some quotes to show the timeline of China's discoverey and claim of sovereignty over the S. China Sea archipelagos:

http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/eng/topics/3754/t19234.htm

As early as in the Han Dynasty that was more than two thousand years ago, the Chinese people discovered the Nansha Islands through their navigational experience and in the course of their productive activities over the years. All this was amply recorded in the books such as Records of Rarities by Yang Fu of the Eastern Han Dynasty, Records of Rarities in Southern Boundary by Wan Zhen of the Three Kingdoms Period and A History of Phnom by General Kang Tai of the East Wu State.

C. The exercise of jurisdiction by the Chinese Government over the Nansha Islands is also manifested in a series of continued effective government behavior. After Emperor Zhenyuan of the Tang Dynasty (785-805AD) came to the throne, China included the Nansha Islands into its administrative map. It did so more conscientiously in the Ming and Qing Dynasties. A wealth of official documents of the Chinese Government, its local history books and official maps have recorded the exercise of jurisdiction by the successive governments of China over the Nansha Islands and recognized these islands as Chinese territory.

http://www.spratlys.org/history/spratly-is...ry-timeline.htm

200BC around
China firstly discovered the Spratly Islands and other Southern Sea Islands

206BC-24AD
Most of the Paracel, the Spratlys and Pratas Island were known by Chinese geographers of the Han Dynasty

23-220AD
Yang Fu of the East Han Dynasty made the reference to Nansha Islands in his book entitled Yi Wuzi (Records of Rarities)

220AD
Nansha (Spratly) Island was settled by Chinese monks, building up a monastery on that island.

220-280AD
General Kang Tai one of the famous ancient Chinese navigator of East Wu State of the Three Kingdoms Period mentioned Nansha Islands in his book Funan Zhuan (or Journeys to and from Phnom) (the name of an ancient state in today's Cambodia).

265-420AD
Fei Yuan of the Jin Dynasty(265-420 A.D.) wrote about the fishing and collecting of coral samples by the fishermen of China on the South China Sea in his article Chronicles of Guangzhou.

789AD
The Tang Dynasty, China included the Nansha Islands into its administrative map

Vietnamese armed forces could not be happier if Chinese military leaders also underestimated VPA and VPN like this.

As SunTzu said: you never win if you are ignorant of your opponents.

It is also important that one does not overestimate one's enemy. I don't underestimate Vietnamese military but what is there in Vietnamese military to impress me? It is perfectly simple to count the number of fighters and see what kind of fighters they are. If there are 60 Vietnamese Su-30 and Su-27 then China can at the worst trade fighter for fighter and it would cost 60 Chinese fighters of equivalent type to destroy Vietnam's fighters. It has been posted to various forums that Chinese fighters whenever they had the chance to encounter Vietnamese fighters had been able to lock onto them with their fire control radar. Once locked on it is equivalent to a "kill." Therefore, the reality is that China probably can destroy all Vietnamese fighters while losing only a few of their own fighters.

The Vietnamese are still very arrogant from their defeat of the Americans. But the war over S. China Sea will be very different from the last war which had been fought in jungles. The objective of China will also be very different from the American objective. America tried to occupy and control Vietnam. China only wants to regain its sovereign territories. Therefore, China needs only to destroy Vietnam's air force and navy without setting foot on Vietnamese soil. That will limit China's needless losses of lives of Chinese soldiers while limiting the expenditure of materiels. And destroying Vietnamese air force and navy requires skills and tactics that the Vietnamese never had in the war against the Americans. The new war relies on superior technologies and superior intelligence of the military personnel. In the last war Vietnam relied on hiding in the jungle and used attrition as their main strategy of wearing down the Americans while paying millions of lives of Vietnamese fighters.

Vietnam also had the help of Russia and China in the last war. Vietnam had limitless supply of arms that were supplied to them for free. And China had guaranteed the safety of N. Vietnam because Americans were afraid that attacking N. Vietnam would bring in China like in Korea. Now China is Vietnam's enemy and Russia won't give anything to Vietnam for free. Therefore, it is Vietnam who is living in a day dream world expecting to re-fight the old war when conditions have changed totally.

It is the Vietnamese who are misunderstanding the nature of the coming war and overestimating their own power. And it is Vietnam who is underestimating the power of China.

Here is what Si Ma Rang Ju, the putative teacher of Sun Zi, had said:



Currently China is not being effective in its dealing with foreign countries. Many countries are actually occupying Chinese sovereign territories and mocking Chinese attempt at resolving the problem peacefully. As Si Ma had said thousands of years ago, to deal effectively in external affairs it is first necessary to impress aggressors with overwhelming power. Therefore, China cannot continue to rely on benevolence and mediation to resolve the territorial aggressions by foreigners. It is time to use power to settle this problem and with demonstrable power prevent them from committing further aggressions against China.

When? today, tomorrow, this week, this month, next quartar, next year? So when?

If it were up to me, last month.

But the Chinese government is still day dreaming about resolving the problem benevolently with forbearance. The only result is jeering and mockery. An example of that is this very last post from asean.asia. Maybe the Chinese government can see this and take it as a wakeup call for action. One consolation is that the Chinese government is no longer shy about posting military news in its official sites. The peoplesdaily.com has even inserted a new space for military news which has appeared as far as I've noticed only in the last few days. Is this a sign of Chinese government's preparation for war? Or is this just appeasing those Chinese who are advocating war? I don't know. I can only hope.

Especially significant is the many news about troop carriers and amphibious landing crafts and drills of naval vessels.

Thanks God, it is not up to a dumb fu-k like you, and 1.3 billion chinese and their government do not look bad

Don't "approve" of the Chinese people so quickly. 80% of them are tired of China being pushed around and support the use of force to recover China's sovereign islands. The Chinese government may yet do the right thing.

China may not have to use military force to retake what is rightfully theirs. They can send in Chinese oil companies to extract natural resources from there. These oil companies could be supplied with capital from the CCP. After all, there is a limited amount of oil in the Spratly and Paracel islands. The rest of the world can't complain because it is disputed and there are other nations like the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, etc... occupying these islands. Once all the oil is gone, they can pack up and leave...or stay....

There are too many negative consequences for attacking Vietnam:
1. War is expensive, the US proved this with Iraq and Afghanistan
2. War will create extreme negative opinions of China as the aggressor, currently world's opinion of China is not great. Let's not make it worse. Chinese's economy is doing great, why jeopardize this?
3. US might gets involved (small probability but nevertheless real)

Chinese government is real patient. Eventually Vietnam's corrupt rulers will slowly give the islands to China. They just can't do this fast because the fear of angering the population and allowing the US to meddle with regime change. China also doesn't want their little brother commies government to collapse either. These newspaper articles are just there to allow Chinese to vent their anger.

^I agree with what you said. China doesn't want to push Vietnamese public opinion over the edge, but it expects cooperation from Vietnamese government in the long term.

1. Short war, not prolonged kind like 10 years Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Examples are Georgia, Libya (though the condition differ). Capital Hanoi can be put to siege mode within short duration.
2. Agree, but this can be counter balance by being "provoked" into war. Kinda like Chinese Pearl Harbour. This senario must be planned in advance and all the international relations with it.
3. Highly doubt, but preparation for counter value target. Any US ship assistance Vietnam will be in direct risk of missiles. ASBM (Anti Ship Ballistic Missile) preparation to target mode. Submarines to form coastal defence of any US ship entry. Also Georgia senario where US didn't assist Georgians.

No one can predict the future and necessary calculation/simulation being plan. I'm sure background there is a lot diplomatic activities going on. War is failure of diplomacy.

MAY I ASK ANY CHINESE A QUESTION? IF YOU GUY SAID THAT ALL PARACEL, SPRATLY BELONG TO CHINA? SO I CAN SAY THAT YUNNAN AND A PART OF QUANGXI BELONG TO VIETNAM 2000 YEARS AGO..THEN NOW WHAT ? WHY DON'T ALL 4KING CHINESE KICK OUT VIETNAMESE TO OCCUPIED 400 YEARS AGO ...WHY NOW ? WHY ...BRING HISTORY 2000 YÊARS AGO IT BELONG TO CHINESE ? ..SO fu-kING DUM

no, you cant. Zhao Tuo/Nanyue was not Vietnamese. i dont know how many times i have to explain it to you people. the capital never left Canton, the original Yue tribes for Nanyue were those from Canton. Nanyue only conquered and incorporated Viet tribes after Nanyue submitted to Han. you have next to no claim. im not even going to get into how the Viet kingdom that Nanyue conquered also was not created by native Viet but according to your own records a prince from Shu state.

All Paracel islands belong to China already, the problem are the Spratly islands.

Anyone really from China or Vietnam here...if so where are you from?

Please no war !!!

If China wants Spratly. Lets talk in KL, Malaysia. Nowadays Malaysia is supplying very cheap gas to China for 60 years duration. Still China demanding for war with Vietnam. Why China is really hot blooded. Malaysia the one who introduce China to WTO and open market. China getting investment from US, Europe and Japan through Malaysian warranty and guarantee. But yet China is heading towards war. Why and what happen to your government ???

Malaysia has solved too many wars around the globe. Including Vietcong-Cambodia era. Now we are inviting China to KL for solving Spratly issue. Vietnam, Philippines and US only listen to advice from Malaysia . And not from China. So please come to KL and retreat all your armies.

In this case, it's more likely the Vietnam who want to invade China.

As everyone know, it is Vietnam who always rising the issue of South China Sea all the time.


The island of South China Sea officially part of China since the KMT era in 1911.

A recent independent states like Vietnam and Philippine, who inherit their territory from their former colonial power, don't have any right to claim other well-established country land.

Join here in discussing Philippine claim on Nansha Qundao.

Filipino people believe in FALSE propaganda from American-puppet Philippine government that they own Nansha Qundao.

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=320389

China has nukes. Okay?

China has about 15 times Vietnam's population. Comprende?

Neither China nor Vietnam has the ability to penetrate each other's border region. Vietnam's border region is even much more fortified than 1979.



Please stop smoking crack.



According to our own records, the Spratly's and Paracels belong to Vietnam. Not a joke, not an exaggeration.

200 - 300 year old Nguyen dynasty records prove this. Also, well known Nguyen dynasty maps just prior to the French invasion of Vietnam also shows that rather enormous chunks of both Cambodia and Laos would go back to Vietnam if one follows Chinese nationalist logic.

Likewise, the original Khmer empire which was really big and included much of modern Thailand, Loas, and Vietnam would go back to Cambodia.

Likewise, the original Mongol, Manchu, Hmong, Thai, Tibetan, and other Yueh empires can come collecting at China's door if one were to use Chinese nationalist logic. In which case, CHINA WOULD CEASE TO EXIST.

To be clear here, the North Vietnamese government was duped into signing over either the Spratly's or Paracels or both (I forget the basic details, sorry) to the PRC for safe keeping because they were hedging their bets and worried they'd never conquer South Vietnam. At the time, South Vietnam, and by extention the US, were in full control of one or both of these sets of islands. The PRC was supposed to give back the islands when and if the North vanquished the South.

Open hostilities, of the violent variety, occurred over these islands between the two Vietnam War era allies, namely Beijing and Hanoi, before the Vietnam war even ended. By "violent", I mean Chinese on Vietnamese violence. Kinda like a 2000+ year old broken record if you ask me.

Hanoi subsequently signed a mutual defense pact with the Soviets. What happenned next? 1979. More Chinese on Vietnamese violence, aggression, hegemony. But then again, another giant humiliation for the Chinese in the end. Kinda like a 2000+ year old broken record if you ask me.

In my humble opinion, only relatively modern, albeit past, borders can be enforced or litigated. And even then, I wouldn't want Vietnam to reannex big chunks of Cambodian nor Laotian lands that were won centuries ago.

China's ancient claims on these islands are laughable, as if the seafaring locals within the region never landed or fished these islands. Ancient pre-Han era Vietnamese art clearly shows Vietnamese were a seafaring society. China's modern claims on these islands were based on duplicity.

Now do the math.

problem is Chinese records predate Viet ones by a very long time. so your Nguyen is irrelevant.

i have no interest in imaginary viet history. you got destroyed in battle for spratly. then you got destroyed in battle for paracel. simply, China has never lost territory to Vietnam from battle.

i doubt you could comprehend China's ancient claims. it isnt just of discovery, and NOBODY has records predating China's on discovery. but also of administration, which again nobody has records that predate Chinese ones. perhaps if you actually had a script and were able to keep better records it would be different.

as for returning to ancient claims of territory. northern vietnam would be a province of China.

And your point is?

Let me educate you:
Older records mean nothing. Who legitimately had it last is the rightful owner. Nguyen dynasty records show they were patrolling (one or) both of these islands.

Ancient Chinese records were based on dubious "discovery" claims. These islands are very small: Prior to the age of oil, they were really only useful for fishermen to stop and seek shelter from Typhoons.

"Nobody has records predating China's"? Ever heard of actual artifacts.

But in the real world, might makes right. It trumps ligitimacy. COMPLETELY.

BTW, in the 1400's, the Ming stole Vietnam's records going back at least 2000 years from now. Easy to claim you have older records when you destroyed those of the opposing claimant. Keep the time-line in mind if you try to respond to this one.


1. Set the keyboad down.
2. Stand up.
3. Walk to the bathroom.
4. Turn on the lights.
5. Now look in the mirror. Mindless idiot.

Talk about Chinese nationalist fantasies:

At the time the islands were signed over, North Vietnam didn't even control them. So at least then, it was illegal for North Vietnam to sign them over the duplicitous PRC.

There was an understanding, China was supposed to give them back.

Long story short: Never trust a Chinaman.


Tell me something new. Like I said, might makes right.

But Vietnam has kicked China's @$$ repeatedly in fights China started.


China is also currently 15 times bigger in population. This ratio was much steeper in the past.


Hey dumbo, never try to shoot an opponent with a gun that has a curved barrel pointed back at you.

And what about Van Lang claims?

Hmong empire claims?
Tibetan empire claims?
Mongol/Xiongnu empire claims?
Manchu empire claims?
Thai empire claims?

They're all older than Han China. Or, they were there long before the arrival of the Han.

CHINA WOULD CEASE TO EXIST!

Nice goin' Einstein.

Midnight,

The point is: Might makes right. vs Legitimacy.

The PRC has no legitimacy, rather just relative might on the high seas compared to Vietnam which currently has virtually nothing in said department.

And get this thru yer thick skull, age of claim/records means nothing. The last legit owner is the rightful owner. Let me spell it out: If you sell your Chinese Chery clunker car to your friend, it's no longer yours, even though your claim/ownership is older. THE MOST RECENT LEGIT OWNER IS THE RIGHTFUL OWNER.

IF YOU STEAL IT, YOU GOTTA GIVE IT BACK. Comprende?

During the age of empire, people regularly stole from each other. But even then, there were often treaties of peace where the loser was forced to make painful concessions. This is still very much true in the modern age, even though everyone gives lip service to the rule of law.

Further, in the modern age, a government loses it legitmacy if it is committing genocide, such as in Tibet.

But then again, "Might makes right" usually trumps legitimacy, which is why you still have Tibet. My genocidal fiends friends.

Vietnam legitimately owned what is now huge chunks of Cambodia and Laos. Vietnam lost it due to the French colonial administration redrawing the map. Do I want these lands back? NO. But Vietnam has stronger claims to these other lost lands than China's claims to the Spratly's and Paracels.

I don't believe the existence of Xia,Van Lang and Gojoseon(or the more dubious claims of Shinshi) since they were recorded by people thousands of years after their demise,also lack of archaeological evidence,and your Van Lang was first written by Chinese...
What Hmong empire don't give the crap that Chu state was Hmong,am I supposed to believe the demigods Chi you and Huangdi were real people and a battle took place?
Mongol invaded everyone and got kicked out what claims do they have,Xiongnu being Mongolian is just a theory there are others the Southern Xiongnu rebelled against Chinese but at Sui/Tang time they would be considered Han,ditto with Xianbei. Manchu would have to fight Koreans since both claim the regions around Manchuria,Manchu people are now Chinese. Tai people could claim Yunnan and parts of Guangxi. Yes they are older than Han China but Han was simply a mashup of all the people of the warring states,Han China still considered itself the same people of Zhou.

Read the edited version of what you quoted.

The fact still remains: Their claims are older.

The only time a state really deserves to loose its territory is if it is the aggressor. But this is the ideal, not reality: Might makes right.



Tell that to the archeologists digging up actual artifacts, elaborate fortifications, and so on in northern Vietnam dating back to 600-700 BCE.

What claims are older than Han,the Han didn't fall from the sky,there was no such thing as Manchu or Mongol during Han times.

lmao records mean everything. course yours going back so little you would say its not important. but besides that Chinese build structures on them as well. in fact your own French masters said they found Chinese there.

In 1933, France asserted its claims from 1887[20] to the Spratly and Paracel Islands on behalf of its then-colony Vietnam.[21] It occupied a number of the Spratly Islands, including Itu Aba, built weather stations on two, and administered them as part of French Indochina. This occupation was protested by the Republic of China government because France admitted finding Chinese fishermen there when French warships visited the nine islands.[22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spratly_Islan...matic_dialogues


very typical viet excuse. such things happen to records all the time. it is a level playing field in history. China burned a lot of its own records as well. so what. the point is even with that background, so many Chinese records exist all predating Viets.

as i said, there are only 2 results of the conflicts. first is vietnam sue for peace and submit to be tributary or vassal or second, they lose territory to China. not once has China ever been vassal to Viet, nor has it lost any islands to Viet because of losing to viet in battle.

none of them are older than Chinese. you have a very strange delusion for history. your imaginary kingdom van lang gets its time line from Chinese. yes, time itself was based on Chinese rulers, deities or not. same with the korean gojoseon.


Gojoseon is said to have been established in 2333 BC, based on the description of the Dongguk Tonggam (1485). The date differs among historical sources, although all of them put it during the mythical Yao's reign (traditional dates: 2357 BC – 2256 BC). Samguk Yusa says Dangun ascended to the throne in the 50th year of the legendary Yao's reign, Sejong Sillok says the first year, and Dongguk Tonggam says the 25th year.[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojoseon#Founding_legend



you need less founding myths and more real historical perspective. this is what the world sees as far as the ancient world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civ...ation#Old_World

so you can lose that imaginary glorious ancient past that you pretend you have.

viet wasnt the last legit owner. you couldnt be. viet didnt even exist on its own. it was indo china under france. and france wasnt even the last owner. japan was. japan administered said islands from Taiwan. Taiwan took over the largest and only habitable island with fresh water as their base after Japanese surrender. Taiwan STILL has that island in its administration.

LMAO tibet. silly viets always tend to divert into all sorts of ridiculous topics when the relevant arguments is too much for them to handle.

viet claims to those lands is no stronger than chinese ones over northern vietnam.

Eh. The Nguyen dynasty records in question predate the arrival of the French.


Eh. The Nguyen dynasty records in question predate the arrival of the French.

"lmao records mean everything." I think you meant to say: "The party with the most recent legit claim is the rightful owner." Oldest records mean nothing. More to the point, what you really meant was "Might means everything."



I see you're a wiki scholar.


You're more than welcomed to stab yourself, just don't do it to your neighbor.


"Sue for peace"? Yes, but only after repeatedly kicking China's rear for the umpteenth time.

BTW, when did Vietnam lose/ceed these islands to China due to battle? It never did. North Vietnam signed them over for safe keeping.


Read the edited version of what you and the other guy keep mindlessly responding too: "They were there before the Han. Or, before the arrival of the Han."


Try "The Birth of Vietnam" by Keith Taylor. There are clear signs of civilization going back to at least 600-700 BCE, i.e. fortifications, elaborate dike systems, artifacts, etc.

LOL, another wiki scholar... NEXT!

and Chinese records all predate viet ones. not that it matters, i thought you were all about last owner. which viet is not. LMAO clown.

signed it? no, you viet got OBLITERATED.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Paracel_Islands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_South_Reef_Skirmish

THAT is what happened. haha signed it for safe keeping. viets sure are funny.

whatever delusion you want to have the ancient past is up to you. i really dont care. the major ancient civilizations of the world has been established and in school levels as low as middle school for decades now.

Sorry, just using your own logic against you.


Nope, the most legit recent owner of northern Vietnam are the Vietnamese.

Get it thru your thick skull:

1. Vietnam was the most recent legit owner of these islands.
2. Nguyen records predate the French.
3. If you go by oldest claims, then China would cease to exists. There are so many claimants who lived in what is now modern China long before the arrival of the Han, Tan, Yuan (Mongol), etc.

You're quite the wiki scholar. A brazen one too.

BTW, the nguyen records I'm talking about were posted on this website 1-2 years ago, in the Vietnamese section.

Sorry, but we are the most recent legit owner.

through? whats wrong? tiny hot head cant stay clear enough to spell properly?

1. no, vietnam was not the most recent legit owner. it wasnt even second last.
2. and chinese predate viet
3. if you are talking about places such as inner mongolia/manchuria, western china, southern china. yes china was originally much smaller. and viet was some puny villages. what is your point.




keep telling yourself that. just like you keep telling yourself China didnt get those islands by walloping viets.

nobody cares. as far as records go Chinese predate everyones. as far as recent owner viet isnt even second last.

Han records predate French. If you go by oldest claims then Vietnam would also cease to exist same with other nations,Cham would form Southern Vietnam,not sure how you are going to give back Southern China to an extinct people such as the Baiyue,lmao did you even read what Mid-Night_Sun posted Taiwan is the most legit recent owner since Japan lost WW2. Central China all the way to the Yangtze would still be Han.

Hey genius, how exactly do your wikileaks sink my argument? They don't. No contradiction whatsoever.

North Vietnam signed over these one or both of these islands to the PRC before the end of the war. FOR SAFE KEEPING.

"i thought you were all about last owner. which viet is not."
---Don't forget the illegit role of the colonists. You don't accept what your Brit, Ruskie, and Japanese masters did to you. Don't expect us to accept how the French carved up Vietnam.

Long story short, we were the last legit owners.

And keep this in mind, the oldest claim means nothing, which in the case of China is often dubious to begin with.

LOL yes. safe keeping. k China still keep it safe. decide to keep other islands safe for you as well. whats the problem.

oh thats rich. yeah, the problem is even without french you STILL ARE NOT THE LAST OWNER. what part of the Japanese administrating the entire area through Taiwan can you not comprehend exactly?


Japan occupied some of the islands in 1939 during World War II, and used the islands as a submarine base for the occupation of Southeast Asia. During the occupation, these islands were called Shinnan Shoto (新南諸島), literally the New Southern Islands, and put under the governance of Taiwan together with the Paracel Islands (西沙群岛). In 1945, The Republic of China sent its Naval ships to take control of the islands after the surrender of Japan. It had chosen the largest and perhaps the only inhabitable island, Itu Aba Island, as its base, and renamed the island under the name of the naval vessel as Taiping. The KMT force of Republic Of China briefly abandoned the islands after its defeat in China's civil war in 1949, but re-established the base in 1956. Today, Itu Aba Island is still administered by the Republic of China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spratly_Islan...matic_dialogues

the BIGGEST and ONLY island with fresh water is administered by Taiwan and HAS been since 1940s and 50s and no other claimant seems to think that is a glaring problem in their claim.

Hey genius, how many times does it need to be said: I'M NOT GOING BY OLDEST CLAIM. I'm going by MOST RECENT LEGIT CLAIM.

If you sell your Chery clunker car to your buddy, you no longer own it even though your ownership is older. Your buddy is the most recent legit owner.

COMPRENDE?

All you're doing is incessantly making mindless MIGHT MAKES RIGHT and "We have the oldest records/claims!" arguments all the while citing wikileaks.

Why am I not surprised that you keep citing wikileaks? And keep making MIGHT MAKES RIGHT ARGUMENTS? LOL.

Eh, the Japanese were also in control of Vietnam and the Vichy French colonial administration in Vietnam. The French were not legit, neither were the Japanese.
Got it?

The French didn't leave Vietnam until after Dien Bien Phu in 1954. Vietnam, the last rightful owner, was helpless to stop any Tom, D!ckhead, and Harry Wu from ILLEGALLY occupying the islands thru their relative military might.

lololol nobody was legit except vietnam.

In this case? Yeah.

Qing claimed at the same time at Nguyen,why are Vietnamese the only the legit claimants?