wow, i made a major break-thru on the dna ancestry picture for hmong daw (hmong dawb) and it includes a significant portion of Altaic ancestry, ie Mongols!!!

so the hmong daw y-dna ancestral breakdown is as follows. the data is from a very recent 2011 report: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%...al.pone.0024282

Hmong Daw
33.33% - O3a3b (M7) the hmong marker gene.
25.49% - C (M130) ***possible mongol ancestry***
7.84% - O3a3c1 (M117) han chinese.
7.84% - D1 (M15) found mostly in tibeto-burman peoples.
5.88% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
5.88% - O2a1 (M88) tai, mon-khmer, viet peoples.

because the 2011 Plos One report did not break out the C (M130) dna data, it was just speculation. the C could be C1, C2 or C3. i needed to find concrete evidence of what kind of C dna it was. i did! its contained in a recent 2010 Karafet TM report: https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/ndaMDc

in this report, the C dna is broken down for hmong/miao. we tested positive for both C (RPS4Y) austronesian and C (M217) altaic. the ratio is 1 to 2 (the ratio and actual results are just coincidence). so if we apply that ratio to the PlosOne report, it becomes 16.75% C (M217) and 8.75% C (RPS4Y). the full hmong daw ancestry can now be shown as:

Hmong Daw
33.33% - O3a3b (M7) the hmong marker gene.
16.75% - C (M217) altaic-mongol.
8.75% - C (RPS4Y) austronesian.
7.84% - O3a3c1 (M117) han chinese.
7.84% - D1 (M15) found mostly in tibeto-burman peoples.
6.00% - N1c (M46/Tat) found mostly in yakut peoples.
5.88% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
5.88% - O2a1 (M88) tai, mon-khmer, viet peoples.

there you go my hmong brothers and sisters. finally we have proof of our altaic-mongol ancestry!!!

*edited for the N1c yakut ancestry from 'table S1' XLS of the PlosOne report linked above.

i think everyone in mainland asia have at least some altaic/mongol blood. these nomads invaded and made inroads in virtually every possible direction...

^
Agrees.

@ Xaithoj, i think you're searching a little bit too much there. When that becomes the case, every little detail we find intrigues us in each and every way. I'm sure many other Asian groups also share similar percentage of Altaic blood in them as well.

Have you looked at northern Han? I'm sure their share of Altaic blood is at a much more significant portion as they are more related to Mongols and Xiongnu than their southern Han counterparts according to genetic studies.

you guys are correct about the proliferation of the mongol gene. however, its appearance in the data i've collected; and the data itself, is significant for a number of reasons:

1. hmong people have made the claim of a northern ancestry. some have done this out of ignorance because hmong and mongolia have the same phonology. others have done it earnestly because of oral tradition; which, after a few generations just becomes hearsay. no matter which, there has never been any concrete evidence to support their claim and they were often ridiculed for it. i gathered this academic data to support the claim of northern ancestry and the data gathered so far pointed to the fact that it was a significant ancestry and deserved further investigation.

2. hmong people have always had a yearning to understand their ancestry and history. without a written language, everything related to ancestry and history were passed down by word of mouth. this oral tradition is vastly inferior to a written form and so loses lots of detail and gains lots of inaccuracies. hence, this search for self and identity has been a pre-occupation for many hmong people, but has never been totally satisfied. i have finally been able to piece one side of that mystery together in the form of the most comprenhensive data yet published on hmong ancestry. up until now, there has never been data that was specific to our group of hmong people. the data was always generically labeled miao-yao. without a solid foundation, how can you build a house? without solid ancestral academic data, how can you even begin to understand your own ancestry? that foundation needs to be laid and i present the data i've collected as the most solid foundation yet for further academic interests for hmong people.

3. i'm not concerned with other ethnics or nationalities. they have governing bodies and institutions that are focused solely on this type of research with budgets that i could never achieve in a 100 lifetimes. hmong people completely lack such things. we have to scrape and scrunge for every morsel of academic knowledge pertaining to our race, our culture, our ancestry and our history for ourselves. we gladly take these droppings and make the most of them. we have to start somewhere and that somewhere is here in forums like these where academic knowledge can be exchanged and shared and passed on and kept in the magic of cyberspace where the next person can build upon it and expand our understanding of ourselves even more.

No, almost every DNA analysis I've read so far suggest otherwise, that is neither northern Chinese nor southerns Chinese possess typical Altaic , aka, Mongol maker, however, both have significant potation of Han maker, O3, on the other hand, southern Chinese do possess more significant SEA attributes

Having Altaic ancestry does not necessary suggest origin.

As found by the study on Hmong-Mein DNA , Hmong-Mien had a southern origin and had dwelled in southern China for the last 2000 years ( Wen et al 2004). Having a "significant" percentage of Altaic ancestry only support the findings that Miao people may have more contact with northern mongoliods as suggested in the study. The Miao from Hunan had the most northern ancestry. The further away the migration and settlement, the less northern ancestry. Surmise to say that Miao from Yunnan have least northern ancestry.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full

^ all people have different origins even if they're from the same ethnic group. A Hmong with northern origin can only proves one thing (that individual's paternal ancestor was probably assimilated). There are many different ways to understand DNA and origins.

What about Hmong individuals of Khmu, Lao, Yi, Mongolian or Chinese descent? What do they consider themselves? Culturally Hmong, but DNA shows something else.

DNA is fixed, while culture is fluid; however, DNA within an ethnic group is too diverse to even make a statement about the origin of an ethnic group. It only helps to explain the interaction/migration between various ethnic groups in the past.

Having altaic ancestry just mean there are interaction between these various ethnic groups, whether it was a love situation or a hate situation (meaning war, capture, rape, assimilation, marriages, adoption).


If you studied Hmong history, you'll realized that the Hmong ancestors fought against Mongol, Manchu and other northern invaders repeatedly. I'm not surprised, but

thank you Xai for the wonderful and insightful information.

Let not focus on other ethnic groups.


Now that I think about it, interesting how some Hmong are broad, stocky, fat and look quite Altaic to me. LOL

I know Hmong have various physical features, but this face looks like a typical flat Altaic face to me. LOL He's Hmong btw.

^ still doesn't change the fact that Hmong origin is not from Mongolia nor siberia. Just because Hmong have some Altaic ancestry in them it is not significant enough AND, not conclusive enough to say that Hmong came from the north.

Many studies had proven that Hmong had a southern (yangtze river) origin. You could be a Hmong of Mongol descendant but you cannot speak for all. Hmong are from southern China disregard of a few individual and their Altaic ancestry.

The connection of Hmong to Mongolia is a pure phonological fabrication.

samples of population

Hmong are not from Mongolia.

this only proves interaction.

it depends on who defines geography.

if you're from the yellow, you will consider people from the yangtze as southern.
if you're from the yangtze, you will consider people below the yangtze as southern.
if you're from mongolia, you will consider people from the yellow river as southern.

the notion that yellow river is CENTRAL is due to ethnocentricism.
the notion that zhonguo is the center of the world is due to ethnocentricism.

so, to make it clearer, Hmong are from both yellow and yantze regions, (not northern or southern).

Agreed. EVERYONE in east asia has some mongolian blood. Afterall, Mongols are the father of all Asians.

I hope this doesn't turn into another Altaic Nazi thread. Please don't turn into those K-nationalists who turn their insecurity into "Altaic supremacy" and cry for approval from mongolians and central Asians.

father of all Asians?
that's an insult to the Hmong people.

So then is it an insult to say that Africans are the mother of all Humans?

Everyone knows that modern day Asians are a mix of mongoloid and australoid.

being mixed with Mongoloid doesn't mean you're Mongolian. lol

where do you think the term "mongoloid" came from?

Modern day Asians are a mix of evenki/mongolians from the northeast and austroloids from the south. The farther south you go, the more austroloid you are. The farther north you go, the more "mongoloid" you are. That's why Koreans have the palest skin and smallest eyes. SEA's have darker skin and bigger eyes.

BTW: what's up with your sig?

then you get this?

Michelle Phan is not Hmong, she's Viet. And yes, she has very SEA features: big eyes, big mouth, small chin, etc...she also has a bit of NEA in her, but only a little. Many Korean celebrities need to get plastic surgery to look like her.

you get China's number 1 famous folk singer Ms. SonG Zuying? she's Hmong

wtf are you talking about? michelle phan and that folk singer have nothing to do with this conversation. If you're trying to convince people that Michelle phan is Hmong, then be prepared for many angry Viets.

cuz you said

a mongoloid (pale skin, slanted eyes like Korean)

an australoid (dark skin, big eyes)


both of them = mitchell phan.

Yes, Viets and S. Chinese are in a location which is in between NEA and SEA.

Interestingly,

Altaic DNA is stronger than Han.

OMG, don't tell me the SWA (so-called XIA) people are actually ALTAIC.
Don't tell me the whole time, the HUAXIA people that are mentioned constantly in Hmong history
are the XIONGNU aka MONGOLIANS.

Han are related to Tibetan, making them southwestern people.

Hmmmm, new theory.

Why would Hmong have a good high frequency of C? Could it be that the so-called Northern people constantly known as Sua or Swa are in fact Mongolian and not Han Chinese? So, where did Han Chinese came from?

my own personal theory is that its from the mongol soldiers of yuan dynasty in yunnan. its a fact they were there. its a fact they worked with the minorities to control the han majority. its a fact many minorities (including hmong) faught with them when the chinese were starting to win back china. its a fact many of them hid themselves within the minority groups to not be killed by the hans after the ming chinese took over.

i think we have to think of the size of our current hmong daw population in regards to that timeframe, 1271-1368, to get an accurate picture of how the mongol soldiers coulda made such an impact on the gene pool. out of all the hmong/miao groups, the hmong/miao in yunnan had the worst lands to farm. this is coming from their own mouths and supported by current population numbers where hmong/miao hunan is 2x yunnan population and hmong guizhou is 4x yunnan population.

considering that our hmong daw branch even today is fairly small and that we're all from a mere 18 clans, its pretty safe to assume that back in 1271-1368, our entire hmong dawb branch coulda fit in just a handful of villages. so i wouldn't be surprised if just 5,000 or so mongol soldiers that decided to hide and become hmong with our branch could make such a big impact on the dna pool.

That's absurd. The "shua" that we know of today is definitely Qing. They say, tsoom fwv suab, (zhengfu shua) which refers to the Qing government. Our oral history of our ancient enemies are shrouded in unknown-ness and complexities.

We can only know of the most recent which is conceivable to be Qing. Heck, i don't think our great great X5 grandparents could recall the Ming.

That's rediculous. The mongols and manchus had no reason to "hide". They were the ones controlling and oppressing the Hans. They had all the power. And Han is not an ethnic group since most of them are mixed with other ethnicities.

did you stop reading at 'hide'? my full sentence was:

"its a fact many of them hid themselves within the minority groups to not be killed by the hans after the ming chinese took over."

the foolish ones who didn't hide and were 'spared' by the ming had the privilege of becoming 'eunuchs' (what an honor! /end sarcasm). the most famous person to attest to that is admiral zhang he.

You have no FACTS or research to substantiate your wild theories. And "minority" groups during Ming were not being killed. In fact, the manchus became very powerful during the Ming dynasty.

Actually there are FACTS. For your information, many Hmong were killed by Ming soldiers. After the collapsed of Yuan, many Mongol soldiers/officials were persecuted. It happens in each dynasty.

The Manchus became powerful toward the end when Ming elites started marrying Manchu women, just like how the Chinese ancestors were able to conquer the Hmong by briding the Hmong officials with their women.

It's not a wild theory, many Mongol did assimilated. Explain why the Hmong have a high frequency of C? and not Han marker. It correlates with history.

mongol officials were being persecuted because they were oppressing Hans and were warlords.

And the Ming dynasty was 400 years ago. A lot has changed since then. Hmong have mixed with other Asians. Chinese have mixed with other Asians. Hmong are no more "altaic" than any other Asians.

This Altaic "pride" thing reminds me of Nazis.

i thought hmongs were just vietnamese people from that clint eastwood movie

LOL that movie was so racist. I heard the Hmong cast was mistreated too.

During Yuan, a Hmong troop was actually under a Mongol general.
It was during Ming that the Ming aggressively tried to defend themselves from the Hmong.

Why would Ming built the southern wall? There were lots of Hmong despite each dynasty after the next,
when the Imperial families launched punitive attacks on the Hmong.

Even during the time of Chiyou, when Huangdi won.... the people under Chiyou didn't die... only a very very very small portion.
Some of his men fled south creating today the Miao Nationality.... but many actually assimilated and became Han.

Yes, Hmong have mixed with other Asians. It's no doubt. Many Hmong know that. Marriages between other Asian ethnic groups is prohibited, but many Hmong forgot to realized that Hmong men could marry non-Hmong women, thus, creating mixing/diversified the gene pool, which is why you as you go up north to China, the Hmong look strikingly pale and slanted eyes... as you go down south into Laos, the Hmong begin to look Austro-Asiatic.

In just 500 years of America History, so many things have done and changed.... 500 years of Ming.. c'mon... lots of things had happened.

Ming even used Hmong to kill Hmong. Same with Qing....

The policies --- divide and conquer, let assimilated barbarians govern non-assimilated barbarians... those were the imperial Chinese policies.

Stop trying to paint China in a negative way. And don't interchange "Chinese" with "mongol" or "manchu". It was the mongolians who installed these ruthless so called "chinese" policies. It was the Mongols and Manchus who expanded, yet Hans get the blame.

Either way, most Chinese people - ethnic or not consider themselves "chinese". Like it or not, Chinese people are united. 1.3 Billion Chinese people have been mixing with other ethnicities. So don't bash China when they could share the same blood as you (assuming you're asian).


And what is up with your signature of that White dude?

there are some Hmong clans who claim their forefathers are Han and their maternal ancestors are Hmong, but their forefathers became Miao (as they took onto the culture),

then there are Hmong who are extremely traditional, show no Chinese influences in ancestral burials/family rites (noting: their forefathers are Miao), do not associate anything with Han Chinese, restraint from being sinicized, refused to follow Chinese customs and etc...

then there are Hmong who forefathers are (Yi, Mongol and other ethnic groups) through mixed marriages/adoption and so forth.


My signature? I like white people.

we're talking about Mongols, Hmongs, Yunnan and Yuan. why are you even bringing up the Manchus? talking about the Manchus in this conversation is "rediculous" as you put it. just so we understand each other, ima put some dates so you don't get so confused.

Yuan dynasty (Mongols) 1271 to 1368.
Ming dynasty (Chinese) 1368 to 1644.
Qing dynasty (Manchus) 1644 to 1912.

in 1381, the Ming dispatched generals Fu Youde and Ma Hua to Yunnan (far far south-western corner of china, NOT far far north-eastern corner of china) to finally eradicate the last mongol stronghold in china. they came with 300,000 chinese troops. Basalawarmi (a descendant of Kublai Khan), who was the last mongol in power, gathered an army of 100,000 to meet them. this is 1381. the mongols had all been defeated by the Ming throughout china. the Ming had already established their Dynasty in 1368. only the minority groups would support Basalawarmi at this stage. Basalawarmi lost this battle and committed suicide January 6, 1382. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalawarmi

admiral Zheng He (only 11 years old at this time) was captured in Yunnan and made a eunuch because his father, a Hui minority, had been a part of the Yuan administration. The Ming sent troops to Yunnan to ERADICATE the mongols. if they were happy with the mongols, they wouldn't care and would have left Yunnan alone. so you tell me, when your only options as a mongol soldier after the Ming take Yunnan are A.death, B.castration, what would you choose? im no expert, but im going to say most chose a new option: C.get the f*y*c*k out and hide where the Ming couldn't find you. so why is it so hard for you to accept that some of them could of hidden with the minority groups in Yunnan (including the hmong) and pretended to be that minority and then just assimilated? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

go back to my post and tell me where i stated that the Ming were killing the minority groups? it looks to me like you don't know how to read or that english is not your first language. and when i pointed out how erroneous your first comment in regards to my post was, you then started to attack blindly instead of admitting that you misread my post.

with the high frequency of C (mongol ancestry), hmm?

paternal side?

One of my friend's great great grandfather was Han Chinese; that's only 3 generations away. But it is not genetic, but our cultural affiliation that determines our ethnicity.

I am not sure if my forefathers were Miao. Our burial rites resemble those Chinese from SEA of stone stacking rather than the typical dirt mound that half of the Hmong practice.

She's bad

hey! Maybe genghis khan is Hmong!

we're not making that claim. we know exactly where our roots in china are: daxi culture in the yangtze river basin. we'll send the bill out for teaching everyone in east asia to farm rice later. we're just proving that we do have altaic ancestry too so that no hmong will ever be ridiculed again when they bring the subject of mongolia up.

btw, slap a fur hat on this hmong dude and give him a horse and he could ride right into Ulan Bator without a second look: http://photo.itojsiab.com/photo_show.php?p...4d180b08d62b00a

How can u prove that?

By O3a3b? Sorry O3a3b existed from aeta to NEA. And sorry again Daxi people did not resemble your people.

"Haplogroup O3a3b-M7: Found frequently among Ancient Daxi culture and modern Hmong–Mien peoples, with a moderate distribution among Han Chinese,[11] Buyei,[11] Bai,[12] Mosuo,[12] Tibetans,[12] Qiang,[11] Oroqen,[11] Tujia,[13] Thai,[13] Orang Asli,[13] western Indonesians,[13][14] Malaysians,[14] Vietnamese,[14] and Atayal.[13]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O_%28Y-DNA%29

O3a3b is the defined dna marker for hmong/miao people. it is our dominant gene. we are the direct descendants of daxi. don't know how to make it clearer to you.

and btw...how do you know what daxi people look like? lol, thanks for the laugh.

LOL. What a fool he is.

Yep, Daxi culture is often linked to Hmong-Mien. What else to prove if not DNA? People often ridicule Hmong because we have no written history nor archaeological support but now, we finally have something to prove that our origin is the Yangtze River. Our dominant Ydna is O3a3b-M7. More than 50% of the Ydna found at Daxi were O3d. A rare gene that is found in the She and other Hmong-Mien groups.

According to the migration of O3, Hmong-Mien originated south of Sino-tibetans and north of Mon-Khmer. We are the intermediate between SEA and NEA. Yangtze River looks to be right.

I can now accept the facts that I'm O3d + C.

You seem like someone who likes White people:

No it doesn't.
It does not exist in Aeta to NEA.

O3a3b is a very rare haplogroup, also known as O3d. It exists largely in Hmong-Mien speakers.
Daxi people were O3a3b (O3d) line M7. Hmong-Mien speakers are dominated by this haplo, rare in other ethnic groups.

Sorry again, but you sound pathetic.
Daxi people were an ancient people settling on the Yangtze region around Hunan (old territory of the Hmong people).

So, what are you trying to say?

No it will come up bc you and xeemlauj and many other Hmong (who may not specifically admit it) are completely fanatic about being northern. But hey whats cocopuff/xeemlauj doing here? I thought he said Hmong don't care about genetics?

Here is why genghis ghan could be Hmong:

1. He is in Asia.
2. Hmong have blond hair.
3. Hmong are very "international" just like Genghis Khan and Mongolians.

See? There is at least 50% chance genghis khan is Hmong. I'm not saying he is, I'm just saying he COULD BE. Not trying to make any crazy claims. Remember, the winners are the writers of history.

Aborigines also have blonde hair:

Are you jealous? This thread isn't about you.
First, we are not talking about you.
Second, you have no say in this since you're not Hmong.
Third, your post is worthless.

You're just trolling.

I'll quote again Xaithoj's response:

we're not making that claim. we know exactly where our roots in china are: daxi culture in the yangtze river basin. we'll send the bill out for teaching everyone in east asia to farm rice later. we're just proving that we do have altaic ancestry too so that no hmong will ever be ridiculed again when they bring the subject of mongolia up.

^ what part of that do you not understand? It is not a claim that Mongol= Hmong or viceversa. This is simple English gosh.

Obviously Mongols got shipwrecked to Australia when they tried to invade Japan. Or some Hmong sailed the seven seas when escaping from Chinese invasion and ended up in Australia.