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tangawizi
Does the Eternal Soul Exist?

Neuroscientists understand, at least in general, how the biological machinery of the brain can compute information. But how does a brain become aware of information? What is sentience itself? When a specific part of the brain is damaged, does the patient lose only a specific category of knowledge, such as vision or language, or can the patient ever lose some of the essence of awareness?

A clinical syndrome called hemispatial neglect may help to answer the question. It is one of the most fascinating, and horrible, syndromes in the medical literature. Neglect was first described early in the 20th century, and over the years much has been learned about it.

Imagine waking up in the hospital after a stroke to find that half your world is gone. The left side of space and everything in it has been erased from your consciousness. You can talk to the people who stand to the right side of your hospital bed, but when they walk to the left side they disappear from your mind. You dress the right side of your body but forget to dress the left. You think you've eaten everything on your plate, but have eaten only the food on the right side. You can't even conceive of a left side of the plate. When someone rotates the plate, food that you didn't acknowledge before suddenly appears. When you draw a clock, you crush all 12 numbers into the right side of the drawing and don't notice that anything is wrong. You have no insight into your own condition because, lacking any awareness of a left side of space, you can't realize what is missing.

This bizarre and crippling syndrome is not simple blindness. After all, blind people and sighted people who close their eyes know about the objects around them. Instead it is a mental blindness. It covers vision, touch, hearing, memory and concept.

Over the years, different varieties of neglect have been described and associated with damage to different brain regions. But the most dense, profound loss of awareness is associated with a region of the cerebral cortex roughly just above the ear on the right side of the brain. Much more rarely, neglect of the right side of space is caused by damage to the same general area on the left side of the brain.

Neglect is a peculiar syndrome. It suggests that awareness is not a unified item, but like many constructs of the brain it can be knocked apart into a right and a left half. It suggests that awareness is constructed at least partially by a specific region of the brain. It suggests a close relationship between awareness and attention.

The findings are controversial. That same general region of the brain has been found to play a role in social thinking -- in understanding the minds of other people. Why would a brain area involved in social intelligence also participate in one's own basic awareness? Which of the rival accounts is correct? I have argued in my scientific writing that the two functions are not rivals, and instead are closely related. Awareness, sentience itself, may be part of the toolkit we use to understand ourselves and each other. It may be a function of our social brain.

In my view, there really is such a thing as a spirit, a soul, but it is not as people have imagined it in the past. The soul is information of a special kind, wrapped up into a complex structure, instantiated in the circuitry of the brain. It is quirky and individual to each of us, and is precious because it is not eternal.


-----------------------------

Do you like his conclusion about the Soul from a neuroscientific pov??? biggthumpup.gif
tangawizi
A follow up to the above post..



The Spirit Ends When The Brain Dies
Michael Graziano
Professor of Neuroscience and Novelist, Princeton University

In my last post I commented about the link between the brain and the mind. That post received so much interest and so many comments from all perspectives that I thought it would be useful to explore the topic more systematically. Nobody should be mistaken about the cultural importance of the topic. The link between the mind and the brain is not merely a medical story. Its implications reach into almost all aspects of religion and spirituality including the belief in God, ghosts, angels, devils, and life after death.

When most of us think about the key conflicts between science and religion, we tend to think about Darwin's theory of evolution published in 1859, or Galileo's persecution by the Catholic Church in the 17th century. These famous clashes between science and religion are resolvable. Every sensible modern religion accepts the fact that the Earth orbits the Sun. Liberal religions are gradually accepting the scientific fact of biological evolution.

One disconnect between religion and science, however, is much older, much more profound, and may be much harder to bridge. It dates back at least to Hippocrates in the fifth century BC. At that time there was no formal science as it is recognized today. Hippocrates was nonetheless an acute medical observer and noticed that people with brain damage tended to lose some of their mental abilities. A passage attributed to him summarizes his view elegantly:

"Men ought to know that from the brain, and from the brain only, arise our pleasures, joys, laughter and jests, as well as our sorrows, pains, griefs and tears. Through it, in particular, we think, see, hear, and distinguish the ugly from the beautiful, the bad from the good, the pleasant from the unpleasant..."

Hippocrates evidently understood the central conflict between observation and most spiritual beliefs. The belief in a spirit world, a world of consciousness that exists independently of physical substance, that survives the death of the body, that comprises ghosts and angels and deities, is incompatible with the observation that damage to the physical brain systematically takes away chunks of the mind. The medical facts suggest that mind, though it definitely exists, is something created by the brain and that it dies piece-by-piece as the brain dies.

About a century later Aristotle famously disagreed with Hippocrates, placing the mind in the human heart. Aristotle listed his reasons, many of which sound vaguely plausible given the analogical and somewhat mystical thinking of the time. How did Aristotle go so wrong in his medical analysis? He was a theoretician. Hippocrates, who worked in a hospital, saw the effects of brain damage every day and grounded his theory in observation. Nobody who spends appreciable time with brain-damaged patients can avoid the obvious conclusion. The brain is the source of the mind.

Another famous view of the brain/mind problem was outlined by Descartes two thousand years later, in the 17th century. In Descartes' view the mind was an ethereal substance, a fluid, that was stored in a receptacle in the brain. When he dissected the human brain he noticed that almost every structure came in pairs, one on each side. The human soul was obviously a single entity and therefore it could not be stored in a double structure. In the end he found a small single object at the center of the brain, the pineal body, and deduced that it was the house of the soul. The pineal body is now known to be a gland that produces melatonin and has nothing whatever to do with a soul.

Descartes' idea, aside from being wrong in the particulars, has a deeper problem. There is no part of the brain that, when damaged, takes away the Cartesian soul. Instead damage to different structures takes away different chunks of the mind. The ability to formulate a sentence? Lost in damage to Broca's area. The ability to understand language? Lost in damage to Wernicke's area. The ability to see, imagine, or comprehend color? Lost in damage to specific regions of the visual system. The ability to think about the space around the body? Lost in damage to another set of brain areas. The ability to intuit the feelings and intentions of others? Impaired after a stroke to a specific network of brain regions. And so on. The mind is a collective and bits of it die when parts of the machinery are mucked up. Even awareness itself, as I wrote about last time, can be splintered apart and compromised by brain damage.

The effect of brain damage is certainly not the only pertinent evidence. Some of the more interesting evidence comes from the direct electrical stimulation of the brain. A little more than a century ago scientists tried applying minute sparks of electricity to surface of the brain, stimulating the circuitry. The technique was improved and elaborated and is now one of the main methods for probing the brain's circuitry. For example, before removing a tumor from a person's brain, a surgeon will expose the brain while the person is awake and under local anesthetic. The surgeon will then study the effect of electrical stimulation, mapping out the function of this and that brain area, to avoid surgically removing any area necessary for language. Some of the most colorful and memorable experiments of this type were done by Penfield in the early 20th century. He found, as have many others since, that electrically tickling a specific spot in the circuitry has a specific and predictable effect on the mind. Whether seeing, hearing, feeling hunger, feeling rage, remembering a scene from childhood, making a coordinated gesture, even feeling as though you've intentionally chosen to make the gesture, these many bits and components of mind can be turned on and off by altering the activity of neurons.

The evidence is now overwhelming that every aspect of the mind is produced by the brain.

The realization that the brain produces the mind is similar in some ways to the theory of evolution before Charles Darwin got to it. Prior to Darwin, the theory of evolution was much discussed and the fossil record certainly supported it, but nobody could point to a plausible mechanism. How exactly did one species evolve over time into many new species? Darwin proposed a mechanism that fit the evidence: natural selection. Survival of the fittest. With the discovery of this simple mechanism, the science of biology was revolutionized.

The idea that the mind depends on the action of the brain is amply supported by the scientific evidence. But nobody knows how a brain produces the inner experience -- the feeling of consciousness. What is the mechanism? That is the question of our time. Many theories have been proposed, including one of my own, and only time and data will tell who is right.

I draw two personal lessons from the neuroscience of mind.

First, far from dismissing mind, or spirit, or soul as nonsense, I see these quantities as far more precious precisely because they are vulnerable and finite. In a sense I've become more spiritual as my scientific understanding deepens and I realize that spirit is a passing conjunction of information.

Second, the neuroscience of the mind gives me a wonderful opportunity to work on a scientific problem that is truly meaningful. About 25 years ago Francis Crick, famous for his role in understanding DNA, posed a question. Is it possible for brain science to address consciousness, a topic traditionally studied by philosophers and theologians? The answer is a definite yes. Many neuroscientists including myself have joined that effort.

-------------------------

Someday, brain science will cause lots of unemployment in the clergies all around the world... hahahaha.... biggthumpup.gif
lovinlife
i think it is eternal.. i see no reason to believe otherwise.. like why would it just disappear if it is already existing possibility
tangawizi
But there's no evidence for the soul to be existing in eternity, is there?
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Oct 16 2011, 10:03 AM) *
But there's no evidence for the soul to be existing in eternity, is there?

You ascribe aspects of the mind to functions of the brain
As if the two are meshed together, and can not be withdrawn from one another.
That one provides the other ... with reality.
If the brain dies then the soul or reality dies with it??

When you sit and meditate, what are you trying to do??
Are you just trying to quiet the mind??
Does knocking your self out also accomplish this??
Are you trying to develop concentration??
If yes then what for??
Some say for enlightenment ... others say that you must be reborn ...
And still others say you have what is always there, you just have to realize it and ... wake up

Yes, there is no physical evidence of a soul to exist
Consciousness can be exhibited but can not be proven
After all, the most sophisticated computers can mimic any human response to stimuli.
And, thus provide the same responses as a human being with consciousness.

While my mind goes faster than I can write these words, the soul does exist and human spirituality does go on forever
Unfortunately, it does like everything else in this universe ... it under goes change.
So, does it remain eternal?? Maybe?? Depends on the force of life or spirit or will or strength of intent or something like that.

OMG, what have I gotten myself into now???
GentleWind
Uh Avi$hitor, please lay down the pipe.
avisitor
QUOTE (GentleWind @ Oct 19 2011, 10:28 PM) *
Uh Avi$hitor, please lay down the pipe.

Does your mind always travel in such small circles??
SmellyFart ... sorry, GentleWart, you really should be more open to the truth
GentleWind
$hit and run huh. I should employ this method.
avisitor
QUOTE (GentleWind @ Oct 19 2011, 10:33 PM) *
$hit and run huh. I should employ this method.

Why do you always go off topic and preach your crap??
You are no better than the crazy man in the NYC subways preaching his bible
No one wants to hear it and you aren't helping anyone.

Now, please stay on topic.
GentleWind
I have never said I am sane. badteeth.gif
tangawizi
It's Saturday nite, guys! biggthumpup.gif
avisitor
QUOTE (GentleWind @ Oct 20 2011, 02:30 PM) *
I have never said I am sane. badteeth.gif

No, you never said you were sane.
And, often I have said so only to be rebuffed by your torrents of insults.
So be it ... embarassedlaugh.gif
GentleWind
Insults are good for you. That's your practice right here.
ladyboyfarang
no one knows until they die. beerchug.gif
avisitor
QUOTE (ladyboyfarang @ Oct 23 2011, 03:55 AM) *
no one knows until they die. beerchug.gif

Is death the key to knowing the truth about the soul??
Or is there another way and we must persevere til we find the truth.
I don't have the answers ... only more questions ... especially after someone attempts to answer.
tangawizi
check out the neurological studies and find out! biggthumpup.gif
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Oct 25 2011, 04:19 AM) *
check out the neurological studies and find out! biggthumpup.gif

How do neurological studies explain about something as ethereal as a soul????
I think you're chasing after rainbows .. looking for the pot of gold
tangawizi
Don't u think chasing after the soul is as real as the end of the rainbow? biggthumpup.gif

Interesting TED talk on the divided brain :

Sisi
We dont know everything, even if we were to put our minds together, space is huge and many unknown things, there's no evidence that eternal life does not exist also.
Also alot of things do go on in our lives that are not seen, we cant see emotions, well not all of them, we cant read eachothers minds, we cant really see what is really going on in eachothers mind and the more a person can communicate in societies way from whats in their mind, the more intelligent that person is called but really alot of us are extremly intelligent more than we can communicate whats in our minds .

But then we are all vulnerable and stupid too , that's why things go wronge,

If we look more into spirituality and not so much in carnal way of thinking , carnal as in materialistic, outside spiritual things, there is sooo much that we all cant yet see and we can see more in spiritual.

It even says in the christian Bible that there are so many things in Heaven that no eye has seen, no ear has heard! icon_smile.gif
avisitor
QUOTE (Sisi @ Dec 9 2011, 11:52 AM) *
It even says in the christian Bible that there are so many things in Heaven that no eye has seen, no ear has heard! icon_smile.gif

So, I'm guessing that your vote is yes??
So, you do believe in an eternal soul.

It isn't important to know for sure since we don't need it until a later time.
But, my interpretation is that we all do have a soul. Just that some of us are more in contact with it than others.
Sisi
It's just harder for me not to believe it. But then again in 1977 I didnt exist wich is sooo strange, disco forever baby !
GentleWind
Materialism...to compare to where you are now, Tanga you are no longer a materialist.
Why don't you show some respect to our discussion?
avisitor
QUOTE (Sisi @ Dec 9 2011, 10:14 PM) *
It's just harder for me not to believe it. But then again in 1977 I didnt exist wich is sooo strange, disco forever baby !

Does this belief come from your background as a Christian?? Or Catholic?? Or some other religious beliefs??
Does it also mean that you believe in a God?? Cause with a God, there must be a soul that needs saving??

I believe in a God but not one that shows vengeance or gives out hail marys.
God is more like an intelligence of the universe and thereby perceives our daily events
A hand to do miracles?? I don't know and hardly believe so.
Why would God change anything when it was set up so in the first place.
tangawizi
QUOTE (GentleWind @ Dec 10 2011, 12:36 PM) *
Materialism...to compare to where you are now, Tanga you are no longer a materialist.
Why don't you show some respect to our discussion?



Huh???? What do u mean I am no longer a materialist? What happened?
GentleWind
Dear Tanga, I am just an ordinary mad man.~Avisitor~

badteeth.gif
avisitor
Woe, that's messed up to see a letter written to someone from me??? embarassedlaugh.gif
Especially when I didn't write it eek.gif
Hey, GW does your head still hurt from the bat that I hit you with??? embarassedlaugh.gif
tangawizi
Dude, you are talking to emptiness.
GentleWind
QUOTE (avisitor @ Dec 24 2011, 11:57 PM) *
Woe, that's messed up to see a letter written to someone from me??? embarassedlaugh.gif
Especially when I didn't write it eek.gif
Hey, GW does your head still hurt from the bat that I hit you with??? embarassedlaugh.gif


If it is empty, then it cannot feel the bat. If it can feel the bat, then it is not empty.

The separation between your mind and my mind is created by the illusion of a separate self such as the tendency to grasp and conceptualize. Why is that so? Because you understand DO-there is not a thing that exists independently. The body that you wear is not an independent entity because it depends on water, food, air, and temperature to sustain itself. Things arise dependently and things don't have inherent existence. Beneath these things, there is inherent existence of emptiness which cannot be understood through the thinking faculty.

The way you think is conditioned by the view that your body is you and permanent. Therefore, there is a separate you from me. You still grasp to the view that there is actually a separate you (that is made from flesh) without realizing that body is conditioned and impermanent. Anyway, you still grasp to view that you are a self even you can imagine that you can exist without a body. The way that you think and conceptualize is reinforced or conditioned by the flesh or body. And when people keep relying on their thinking and conceptualization to make sense of things, they cannot see anything beyond their conditioned perception of self.
tangawizi
Can u dig the connection between time and emptiness?
avisitor
QUOTE (GentleWind @ Dec 27 2011, 12:55 AM) *
If it is empty, then it cannot feel the bat. If it can feel the bat, then it is not empty.

Well, I guess you're just another empty headed nut case ... hehehe

Still posturing high upon your horse???
That fall will kill you ... then maybe you'll see the truth as you take your last breath ....
GentleWind
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Dec 27 2011, 09:42 AM) *
Can u dig the connection between time and emptiness?


What is time according to your understanding?

QUOTE (avisitor @ Dec 27 2011, 10:10 PM) *
Well, I guess you're just another empty headed nut case ... hehehe

Still posturing high upon your horse???
That fall will kill you ... then maybe you'll see the truth as you take your last breath ....


embarassedlaugh.gif

There is a lot of things that can you kill you. So we must be aware of them.
tangawizi
QUOTE (avisitor @ Dec 11 2011, 06:30 AM) *
I believe in a God but not one that shows vengeance or gives out hail marys.
God is more like an intelligence of the universe and thereby perceives our daily events
A hand to do miracles?? I don't know and hardly believe so.
Why would God change anything when it was set up so in the first place.


Isn't God a vicious infinite regression?
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Dec 30 2011, 03:37 PM) *
Isn't God a vicious infinite regression?

God is ... only as you wish God to be ...
Water takes on the shape of its vessel
So your God does what you wish it to be.

My God is one with the Universe and watches the the life of those with karma
Other beings can be free of the work that is needed to be done before the world comes to an end .... hehehe
tangawizi
You could be indicted as a New Agey misfit .. confused.gif
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Jan 1 2012, 01:57 AM) *
You could be indicted as a New Agey misfit .. confused.gif

New Age???
There was a time when it was present .. here and now
When did it become so old as to become new again??

When was the last time you walked along and felt happy cuz the sun shined on your face??
Bliss isn't a thing put upon people ... it is a choice to live life and feel good
I hope you find your eternal soul and feel good about having found it
tangawizi
The New Agey misfits are closely watched by the Church.. since you are catholic, I just thought you should know the Church frowns upon the stuff you are saying about God :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Christian_r..._on_the_New_Age


QUOTE (avisitor @ Jan 4 2012, 06:44 AM) *
I hope you find your eternal soul and feel good about having found it


You have to leave behind the rapturous soul that merges with the God or Universe or Underlying Vibrations someday you know?
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Jan 4 2012, 05:38 AM) *
The New Agey misfits are closely watched by the Church.. since you are catholic, I just thought you should know the Church frowns upon the stuff you are saying about God :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Christian_r..._on_the_New_Age




You have to leave behind the rapturous soul that merges with the God or Universe or Underlying Vibrations someday you know?

Who says I 'm a Catholic???
I've had religious instructions when much younger.
But, it never took. My family's culture also had an influence on me.
Still the guiding light was always what rung true to my heart and mind.
Can't say what religion I am ... what religion was Buddha? ...... hehehe
tangawizi
Do you think faith is required for Buddha's teaching? I do think Buddhism is a religion because of many later corruption of Buddha's teachings possess aspects of the supernatural and inexplicable. But to be fair, Buddha's teaching is simply to meditate, and one can do this without having to get lost in unhelpful conceptual proliferations (papanca).
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Jan 4 2012, 11:19 AM) *
Do you think faith is required for Buddha's teaching? I do think Buddhism is a religion because of many later corruption of Buddha's teachings possess aspects of the supernatural and inexplicable. But to be fair, Buddha's teaching is simply to meditate, and one can do this without having to get lost in unhelpful conceptual proliferations (papanca).

Faith isn't required in Buddhism. However lots of things are believed in just cause that was what we were told.
Told that the eight fold path will lead to a better life in the next life and reduce the karma ... etc
Told that enlightenment exist on the other side of this consciousness ... etc
If these are the things we use to reach for the answers to end suffering then never will be the answer to the final approach
It has to start with the fire in the belly .. a desire to find the answer ... to reach the star ... to end the cycle of life, death and rebirth

What is faith? To believe that what we are doing is benefiting us?
To keep practicing to better ourselves??
To simply meditate without any relationship to life or to have a thought??
Seriously, we are human beings with a whole bunch of crap ... The work needs to be done.
tangawizi
QUOTE (avisitor @ Jan 5 2012, 07:46 AM) *
Faith isn't required in Buddhism. However lots of things are believed in just cause that was what we were told.
Told that the eight fold path will lead to a better life in the next life and reduce the karma ... etc
Told that enlightenment exist on the other side of this consciousness ... etc
If these are the things we use to reach for the answers to end suffering then never will be the answer to the final approach
It has to start with the fire in the belly .. a desire to find the answer ... to reach the star ... to end the cycle of life, death and rebirth


Nicely told.


QUOTE (avisitor @ Jan 5 2012, 07:46 AM) *
What is faith? To believe that what we are doing is benefiting us?
To keep practicing to better ourselves??
To simply meditate without any relationship to life or to have a thought??
Seriously, we are human beings with a whole bunch of crap ... The work needs to be done.


For me, the goal is to return and serve those still in samsara marketplace... that's the whole point of it all.
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Jan 5 2012, 09:03 AM) *
Nicely told.

For me, the goal is to return and serve those still in samsara marketplace... that's the whole point of it all.

The one who went to learn the secrets of the ages ..
And, the one who reaches the goal ...
they may physically be one and the same person
But, the one who comes down the mountain is vastly different in outlook and personality

The whole point of it??
I thought it was to open oneself to the possibilities that this universe provides
Then from there ... to let/help others open themselves to the universe.
Service??? IDK.
tangawizi
That's what i mean, dude. But then only according to the level of awareness of the listeners. That's the big difference between Buddha's skillful method and those proselytising religions.

Do you remember what u said about fire burning in the gut? Well, you can almost see the fires burning in everybody around you, the fire of suffering and their desires to find a way out of it.

avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Jan 8 2012, 10:57 PM) *
That's what i mean, dude. But then only according to the level of awareness of the listeners. That's the big difference between Buddha's skillful method and those proselytising religions.

Do you remember what u said about fire burning in the gut? Well, you can almost see the fires burning in everybody around you, the fire of suffering and their desires to find a way out of it.

Different fire and different desires ... my fire is the force of intent to accomplish something
The something is the eightfold path and mindfulness of meditation
Geez, who wrote the rules???
tangawizi
not me nor GW for sure... the only one here writing any new rule is you, AV! embarassedlaugh.gif the rest of us are just parroting them! icon_redface.gif
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Jan 9 2012, 03:43 AM) *
not me nor GW for sure... the only one here writing any new rule is you, AV! embarassedlaugh.gif the rest of us are just parroting them! icon_redface.gif

Are you telling me that I'm being the a-hole that I dis-like so much???
Wow, what goes around certainly does come around???
Maybe I better shut up for now???
tangawizi
Hahahaha! Seriously dude, we know which school we are, but you are like no school, no path, no doctrine, just that old vagabond searching for himself and meaning of life, universe and all ... it's unorthodox for sure! embarassedlaugh.gif
avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Jan 10 2012, 12:20 AM) *
Hahahaha! Seriously dude, we know which school we are, but you are like no school, no path, no doctrine, just that old vagabond searching for himself and meaning of life, universe and all ... it's unorthodox for sure! embarassedlaugh.gif

The Buddha went on his journey through some of the disciplines of his time
All didn't satisfy him and none gave him the answers he sought.
Wouldn't it be similar in our time too???

Yeah, seriously, I often wondered what it would be like to be linked into a particular discipline
Would my meditation be deeper?? Would my goal be closer??
Then I become like GW and believe myself to be deluded and don't wish to try as hard
After all, those days in a retreat are very tough ... even for the youthful

If sometime in the future .. a teacher comes along then I may forget my life and move on
Or should it be that a teacher comes along and helps me in my life??? IDK.
It would be nice to have all the answers like GW. I don't.

And, I certainly hate those green pills ... nurse, nurse ... embarassedlaugh.gif
tangawizi
No, what are you really waiting for?



avisitor
QUOTE (tangawizi @ Jan 12 2012, 01:15 AM) *
No, what are you really waiting for?

I'm guessing that choosing means choosing one life over the other.
And, I'm not ready to leave my present situation???

When Siddartha went on his quest for his answers to life's questions, he left his family (parents) behind
Only to find that the only thing that mattered to him was his family (lover, son, and friend)
What would make me want to lose my family only to have it matter so much more after such a long journey??

What am I really waiting for???
I'm waiting for the earth to open up and swallow me whole ... to take me on an intensive journey beyond my imaginings ... embarassedlaugh.gif
tangawizi
Not thinking of ordination are you? Some guys at the buddhist wheel who have wife and kid also ponder the predicament.
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