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Captain Corea

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_d...1101201524.html

QUOTE
N.Korean Defectors Strain Seoul-Beijing Relations


Relations between South Korea and China are strained after Beijing on Tuesday said it is sending 20 North Korean defectors back to their country after arresting them late last month, despite urgent requests from South Korea not to send them to almost certain internment in a gulag, torture or death in the North.

But the South Korean government is under internal pressure for failing to do its Constitutional duty to protect them. Under the Constitution, all North Koreans are automatically South Korean citizens.

Chinese authorities recently cracked down on North Korean defectors in its three northeastern provinces and apparently arrested scores in Shenyang. A South Korean group helping defectors found out about what it said were 35 arrests and appealed to the media to prevent them from being sent back to the North. The ruling Grand National Party in an emergency meeting demanded that Beijing halt the repatriations, and the Foreign Ministry dispatched an official to speak with Chinese authorities, but to no avail.

The handling of North Korean defectors has put an increasing strain on South Korea's relations with China after the number of defectors surged in the wake of a famine in North Korea in the 1990s.

One incident was the repatriation of seven North Korean defectors from Russia, who had been caught after crossing a border from China. Russia sent back them to China, and Beijing initially promised to treat them based on humanitarian principles but ended up repatriating them to North Korea, even though they were granted refugee status by the UN Human Rights Commission. The incident has been considered one of Seoul's heaviest diplomatic failures.

Seoul has continuously demanded that Beijing stop repatriation of North Koreans, citing the torture and execution they may face once they are sent back. But China usually waits until global attention wanes before sending them back to the North. This pattern has persisted for the last decade.

Bejing says it takes domestic law, international law and humanitarian principles into consideration in dealing with defectors. Humanitarian principle usually prevail in areas where there is a South Korean embassy or consulate where the defectors can shelter, and they are then quietly allowed to go to South Korea. But those captured elsewhere are sent back to the North according to Chinese laws and agreements with North Korea.

But in sending them back, China violates its obligations as a signatory to the UN Refugee Convention, which prohibits sending refugees back to their home country if there is a threat to their lives or freedom.

Grand National Party floor leader Hwang Woo-yea said, "Forced repatriation of North Korean refugees is a clear violation of the UN convention and we must do everything we can to stop this."


Why not let them go to South Korea?
archaic
....because ....what are you going to do.
zoopiter
QUOTE (Captain Corea @ Oct 13 2011, 05:22 AM) *


becos north korea will voice support behind china upon certain issues that china faced criticism, whereas sk will keep quiet about it, so in a way china does that becos nk wants china to do that and china does it to strengthened china-nk tie as a friendly gesture. on the contrary, china's economical market is large and does not rely largely on sk's take, so even if sk decided to break tie with china, it will not impact the chinese economy hence china will not take sk's protest seriously

as for your bolded statements,
1. south koreans are obliged to defend sk's constitution but china is not obliged to follow that.
2. as per usual practice, many things can be handled in different manners simply by change of definitions. china can insist and label these people as non-refugees.

what sk can do
1. made your voice heard and create awareness
2. continue to make your voice heard and create awareness.

unfortunately in real life, you can't do much about a lot of things except to stand up to your faith - that is one thing people cannot take away from you. if a prisoner insist on his innocence, he can stand up to that till his death even if he can't do anything else - however, someone can subsequently paint a picture that he had confess his guilt. that is the irony of life. nobody can guarantee justice, not even international laws.
newties21
What China is doing is just normal, like what all other countries in the world is doing, namely, to deport back illegal immigrants.
This is not something unusual or abnormal.
I am sure those who criticize it actually also practice it, maybe even in a harsher way.
The article itself also describes how China has several times close one eye and let them pass to South Korea, but obviously this type of closing one eye is not going to be consistent or practiced every time.

But it is true there is a humanitarian angle in this. Those people who got sent back will suffer again, and may even get harsh punishment.

The real solution for this problem is economic reform, so that North Koreans do not have to be suffering and do not have to be emigrating illegally.
As long as the living standard is low, people will want to move out.

To that end, North Korean economic experiments such as special economic zones, should be encouraged and supported, and also at the time being, humanitarian help should be continued, and trade relations also should be continued and improved.
Regarding this, I dont understand how some people can criticize China sending these people back, and yet at the same time they support the economic blockade of North Korea, which actually is the root cause of their suffering, and even go as far as withholding humanitarian aid for political concessions. To me that is immoral and inhumane.
catman
QUOTE (newties21 @ Oct 14 2011, 03:53 AM) *
What China is doing is just normal, like what all other countries in the world is doing, namely, to deport back illegal immigrants.

Why not send them to North Korea.

QUOTE
Regarding this, I dont understand how some people can criticize China sending these people back, and yet at the same time they support the economic blockade of North Korea, which actually is the root cause of their suffering, and even go as far as withholding humanitarian aid for political concessions. To me that is immoral and inhumane.


There is no economic blockace of North Korea. That is one of the more prominent AF myths.

Captain Corea
QUOTE (newties21 @ Oct 14 2011, 04:53 PM) *
What China is doing is just normal, like what all other countries in the world is doing, namely, to deport back illegal immigrants.
This is not something unusual or abnormal.
I am sure those who criticize it actually also practice it, maybe even in a harsher way.
The article itself also describes how China has several times close one eye and let them pass to South Korea, but obviously this type of closing one eye is not going to be consistent or practiced every time.

But it is true there is a humanitarian angle in this. Those people who got sent back will suffer again, and may even get harsh punishment.

The real solution for this problem is economic reform, so that North Koreans do not have to be suffering and do not have to be emigrating illegally.
As long as the living standard is low, people will want to move out.

To that end, North Korean economic experiments such as special economic zones, should be encouraged and supported, and also at the time being, humanitarian help should be continued, and trade relations also should be continued and improved.
Regarding this, I dont understand how some people can criticize China sending these people back, and yet at the same time they support the economic blockade of North Korea, which actually is the root cause of their suffering, and even go as far as withholding humanitarian aid for political concessions. To me that is immoral and inhumane.


1. There is a difference between illegal immigrants and refugees. I'm pretty sure China signed on to agreements regarding treatment of refugees.

2. Please show us all where there is an economic blockade of North Korea.
newties21
QUOTE (Captain Corea @ Oct 15 2011, 01:02 AM) *
1. There is a difference between illegal immigrants and refugees. I'm pretty sure China signed on to agreements regarding treatment of refugees.

2. Please show us all where there is an economic blockade of North Korea.


1. What is the difference between illegal immigrants and refugees ?
Have those illegal immigrants who crossed the border fulfilled the criteria of being refugees ?
Do you think Mexican illegal immigrants are also refugees ?
So why are they refugees ?
Have there been a war recently that I havent heard of ?

2. I dont know, I only know and read several times how SK government under LeeMyungBak have stopped and reversed all Sunshine policies, and in fact also stopped shipment of grain and food and medicine and fertilizer, unless NK first must stop the nuclear program.
I can bet 100% just from reading the article that the hawkish GNP parliamentarian who made complaint about China deporting back NK illegal immigrants is actually a supporter of LeeMyungBak harsh policy towards NorthKorea and he supported the stopping of these humanitarian aid shipment.
I do not know that for sure but I am willing to bet 100%.
It is guaranteed.
These type of people actually have no credibility and they should not open their mouth about any compassion because they have none.
The real ones who have compassion are those who care about the fate of North Korean people and those who support special economic zones, economic reform, special port zones, and market experimentations, because ultimately that is what will relieve the NorthKorean people's suffering.

If any South Koreans care about the fate of North Korean people, write a letter to SK government and petition it to abandon the current course and implement again Sunshine policies.
Captain Corea
1. A refugee is "as a person who "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country".

I think it's very easy to imagine being punished in North Korea for having different political opinions.


2. Not GIVING free food away is NOT the same as an economic blockade.

If I choose not to give to the guy with his hand thrust in my face, am I stopping him from working? Should I give to the man who threatens me?

You may support unconditional aid, and that's fine, that's your opinion. I do not. I do not want my tax dollars to be funnelled into programs supporting those that would kill me and mine.
newties21
Judging from the description of that refugee definition, which I by and large can agree with, I believe those NK illegal immigrants are NOT refugees but merely economic migrants similar to Mexican illegal immigrants who cross the border to the USA, or even, also Chinese nationals who enter SK illegally and got deported back.

Those people are not refugees, they do not fit the definition as per described, they are not having any internal war, there is no political and religious persecution towards them, no racial persecution. The persecution is from not having enough food, not enough clothes, not enough shelters. And none of them are generals or diplomats or any of those sorts.
Purely economic migrants.

I repeat and quote the description :

"...for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion..."

Note carefully there is no mention of ECONOMIC factor.

Of which these people fall into the category of.
Captain Corea
If they go back to the DPRK they will be punished. it is illegal for North Koreans to leave North Korea without permission. As well, the DPRK is notorious for not allowing various freedoms.

Do you honestly think ppl are free to practice various religions and political leanings there?

How do you know that all/most have left for solely economic reasons?
newties21
QUOTE (Captain Corea @ Oct 15 2011, 10:06 AM) *
...


If they get punished when they get back to NK, it is because they committed illegal emigration.
I dont know whether illegal emigration is part of NK criminal justice code, but it is their internal business and maybe they do have it.
As to your second question, I know it from watching documentaries and interviews, most of the illegal immigrants just wanted to find a better livelihood.
No, they were not persecuted Christians, or persecuted Buddhists, or persecuted democracy activists, no.
doggyji
QUOTE (newties21 @ Oct 15 2011, 11:36 AM) *
If they get punished when they get back to NK, it is because they committed illegal emigration.
I dont know whether illegal emigration is part of NK criminal justice code, but it is their internal business and maybe they do have it.
As to your second question, I know it from watching documentaries and interviews, most of the illegal immigrants just wanted to find a better livelihood.
No, they were not persecuted Christians, or persecuted Buddhists, or persecuted democracy activists, no.
I think the main problem is the fact that once they get deported back to NK, they can even get executed. The punishment is not just getting fined. It is a matter of life and death. This situation doesn't make them "refugees"? Mexican illegal immigrants in the US do not face the same fate when they are sent back to Mexico. Not even close. To be fair, it should not be China's monetary burden. SK should pay every single penny for bringing North Koreans from China to SK. I don't think this is the real issue though. China is supposed to want stable diplomatic relations with her allied regime in NK. If China makes a decision not to send NK defectors back to NK despite this, it will be a progressive favor.
Captain Corea
QUOTE (newties21 @ Oct 16 2011, 12:36 AM) *
If they get punished when they get back to NK, it is because they committed illegal emigration.
I dont know whether illegal emigration is part of NK criminal justice code, but it is their internal business and maybe they do have it.


So they HAVE to keep their people there? Bar them from leaving??

Sounds like something someone might want to escape from, no?


QUOTE
As to your second question, I know it from watching documentaries and interviews, most of the illegal immigrants just wanted to find a better livelihood.
No, they were not persecuted Christians, or persecuted Buddhists, or persecuted democracy activists, no.


I've met many who are. Perhaps you need to do something more than just watch tv.
newties21
QUOTE (doggyji @ Oct 15 2011, 02:04 PM) *
...


I see....
I hope they do not get executed....it will be quite sad if they are....because actually they did their action due to desperation.....it is nobody's fault.....actually the whole situation is quite sad......

Lately NorthKorea has opened some free port zone......the young deputy mayor is very promising.....
I believe there is a high chance that the project may become successful gradually over time....
I wish that the project would be successful and then after that because it is a success hopefully then the economic reform is rolled out to the whole country.
Let's hope so.
doggyji
You know how people cease to bother criticizing NK regime in all seriousness because they end up being an uncommunicative ambient nuisance. Hopefully, KJI's successor will have a more practical vision and stop abusing his kingdom.
newties21
QUOTE (doggyji @ Oct 16 2011, 07:25 PM) *
...


I hope so too, hopefully the next generation of leaders would be more practical.
I believe there is a chance of some opening up.
Because the younger leader has been exposed to some overseas education.
And besides, not only that but also the world itself is changing and NorthKorea has seen the reforms in Vietnam and in China.
They have implemented a few experiment projects themselves.
I believe it is only a matter of time before more reforms is introduced in due course, gradually in future.
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