I guess you should read up on your East Asian history and stop believing in Korean supremacist propaganda about how Korea once covered the whole modern China, Siberia, and Manchuria, created Chinese characters and "civilized" Japanese.

Strawman. Just because he does not subscribe to Sinocentric diffusionist theory doesn't automatically mean he subscribes to it's Korean equivalent.

How is saying Koguryo was a Sino-Korean kingdom being Sinocentric? It's been proven that Han dynasty China colonized Korea. Koguryo was established after Han dynasty fell. Do you honestly believe that the native Koreans kicked out the former Chinese settlers and established a "Korean" kingdom all on their own with their own culture uninfluenced by China?

"Koguryo was established after Koguryo fell. " Now, how is that possible?

The Chinese previously colonized (for a short time) parts of the region that eventually became Koguryo, but were not instrumental in the actual formation of the kingdom of Koguryo nor did they rule the kingdom after it was established, and until it was invaded by the alliance of the Tang dynasty and the Silla kingdom. Koguryo was built from the ground up; founded and ruled by native ethnic Korean tribes, who expanded outward from the Yula river, ending Chinese control of Lolang, and extending their control northwards and southwards. Also, the Koguryan language is considered in scholarly circles to have had a common root with Japanese, Modern Korean and Baekje. While the Koguryans did fill the power vacuum left by the decline of the Han dynasty, their kingdom wasn't just some some renegade Chinese province that had its statehood dropped in its lap.

I don't doubt that there was significant cultural influence from China, but that hardly makes Koguryo a "Sino-Korean kingdom", any more than the cultural influence of China on ancient Japan made the Yamato a Sino-Japanese empire. I can unhesitatingly recognize the legitimate claims of Chinese cultural influence on Koguryo, but not the claims to the leadership, power or statehood of the kingdom.

Do you have reliable evidene to back that up? I am sincerely interested.

There was a massive Chinese migration from the Yin kingdom during the Warring States period in China as the Qin pushed westward to conquer the other 6 kingdoms. Many of these Chinese refugees fled into Northern Korea where they developed their own distinct kingdom different from the Chinese (Qin Empire). Now that they could not return to China because of Qin and later Han domination, over time they mixed with the native Korean population in the South and Koguryo was formed.

This is basically what the book "East Asia at the Center" written by Warren I. Cohen suggests. :genius:

I think Koguryo RULED many koreans, but it has no real connection with modern day Chaoxian. It was a kingdom that Tongus people set up which happened to own a part of Chaoxian peninsula.
notice, historically Chinese Dongbei were not just about China and Korea, but also many other small tribes.( the korean supremacists are playing around with this "if not chinese then must be korean") Koguryo MAY had been somewhat influenced by "Korean" custom ( if that was even theirs) , the legitimate "Koreans" that their people recognized were the Hang tribe 韓族( as recorded by Chinese) who originated from the southern tip of Chaoxian peninsula, as opposed to the Chinese who lived in the north of the peninsula. Therefore, do you think the Hangs could travel all the way to the north to Dongbei and established a 'huge' kingdom there? Not likely. Besides, Chinese Han dynasty were already ruling the Northern part of Chaoxian peninsula, how could Koguryo possibly be them koreans' ?

basically, it says the Koguryo was one of the many primitive tribes that resided in Chinese northeast and northern Chaoxian. So it was NOT the same with the Hang Korean.

If custom can be used as an argument, then hey, I can as well claim Japan and entire Chaoxian as parts of China.

My conclusion : Koguryo was established by tribes in Northeast China, who are now a part of Chinese ethnicities, therefore , I can't really say it was China's, but definately "more Chinese than Korean".

Anyone like enchiladas? I love enchiladas.

[quote=Kulong,Feb 11 2004, 06:04 PM]Do you have reliable evidene to back that up?  I am sincerely interested.[/quote]
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[quote=DaMo,Feb 11 2004, 04:37 PM] The Chinese previously colonized (for a short time) parts of the region that eventually became Koguryo[/quote]
http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guid...th-korea14.html [quote]The Han Chinese seized the area in 108 B.C., but from the beginning Chinese rulers confronted many uprisings against their rule.[/quote]
(Koguryo was founded around 37 BC)
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[quote=DaMo,Feb 11 2004, 04:37 PM]and until it was invaded by the alliance of the Tang dynasty and the Silla kingdom[/quote]
http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guid...th-korea14.html [quote]Although Koguryo had been strong enough to repulse the forces of the Sui Dynasty, combined attacks by Silla and the Tang Dynasty of China (618-907) proved too formidable.[/quote]
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[quote=DaMo,Feb 11 2004, 04:37 PM]... but were not instrumental in the actual formation of the kingdom of Koguryo nor did they rule the kingdom after it was established ... Koguryo was built from the ground up; founded and ruled by native ethnic Korean tribes, who expanded outward from the Yula river[/quote]
http://reference.allrefer.com/country-guid...th-korea14.html [quote]The northern kingdom of Koguryo emerged from among the indigenous people along the banks of the Yalu River.[/quote]
http://www.koreainfogate.com/beautykorea/c...o&title=Koguryo [quote]The Koguryo kingdom was founded around 37 B.C. by the Maek(j~) Tribe, who inhabited the narrow river basin in the middle region of the Yalu River. The kingdom developed uninterruptedly from this foundation,[/quote]
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[quote=DaMo,Feb 11 2004, 04:37 PM]ending Chinese control of Lolang, and extending their control northwards and southwards[/quote]
http://www.slider.com/enc/29000/Korea_History.htm [quote]The kingdom of Koguryo, the first native Korean state, arose in the north near the Yalu River in the 1st century a.d., and by the 4th century it had conquered Lolang.[/quote]
http://www.koreainfogate.com/beautykorea/c...o&title=Koguryo [quote]and in 313 A.D. drove out the Chinese Lolang. By 427 A.D. the capital city was moved to Pyongyang. Continuous territorial expansion took place, so that at its maximum Koguryo territory ranged from the Amur River of Manchuria in the north, to the areas of the Han River in the south.[/quote]
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[quote=DaMo,Feb 11 2004, 04:37 PM]Also, the Koguryan language is considered in scholarly circles to have had a common root with Japanese, Modern Korean and Baekje.[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo [quote]Some scholars believe that the languages of Goguryeo, Baekje, and Japanese language have common root back to 2500 years ago, and this common root has originated from the same root with modern Korean about 4000 years ago.[/quote]

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One argument for the Chinese claim on Koguryo is based on the fact that Koguryo was influenced by Chinese culture. I have already tackled that one in my last post.
[quote]I don't doubt that there was significant cultural influence from China, but that hardly makes Koguryo a "Sino-Korean kingdom", any more than the cultural influence of China on ancient Japan made the Yamato a Sino-Japanese empire.[/quote]


The other argument for a Chinese claim on Koguryo is based on the fact that descendants of the people of Koguryo are now minorities in China and that much of ancient Koguryan territory is a part of modern Chinese territory.*. But the rise of the state of Koguryo took place at the initiative and on the shoulders of the natives of the Korean peninsula, at odds with the contemporary Chinese. These natives were not Chinese then, and only some of their descendants now live as a minority in China. Also, ancient territorial expansions have little to do with modern national boundaries. Koguryo was created by a people who were ethnically indigenous to the Korean peninsula, but whose descendants are now both Korean and "Chinese", and part of whose territory now lies in China. Considering this, giving Chinese instead of Koreans credit for Koguryo based on the fact that some of the Koguryans' descendants live in China as minorities and that much of ancient Koguryo now lies in China would be like giving Russians instead of Mongolians credit for the Mongol empire, based on the fact that some people of Mongol descent live in Russia as minorities and that much of the ancient Mongol empire now lies in Russia. You have to look at the big picture. As such, I think the most appropriate thing to do is to give credit for Koguryo to the Koreans, and to be fair, as well as to the Korean minorities in modern China.

who gives a $hit..man it's so stupid to see people squable over land..it's just dirt... okay? there's plenty enough to go around. -shakes head- are you people ever going to learn?

like a bunch of little kids fighting over a toy.

Beaner food? ewww...

DaMo, your 'saneness' is very appreciated in an insane world.

"I guess you should read up on your East Asian history and stop believing in Korean supremacist propaganda about how Korea once covered the whole modern China, Siberia, and Manchuria, created Chinese characters and "civilized" Japanese."
Well, you know what?
This is true except the creation of chinese characters i am not sure of. As far as extending the borders of china, it was koreans and not the han race.

DaMo maybe you could help me out here,
You know what really irks me very badly is the flagrant, blatant attack on korea, its culture, and especially its history both by china and japan. Take the above example, korea did 'civilize' japan, it may not bode well for an overinflated ego for the other party mind you, but it is nonetheless true, there was no 'japan' until koreans arrived. Yet this is considered 'supremacist propaganda', as if koreans have had nothing to contribute and their influence has been concentrated soley on that tiny little peninsula forever. NO, that is 'supremacist propoganda REVERSED! I am so sick and fed up with seeing so much nonsense directed at korea!

Ahem. I think you got the wrong idea. Just because I am willing to defend Korea against inaccurate Chinese claims does not mean I am going to support inaccurate Korean claims. No, Korea did not have anything to do with "extending the borders of China," and Korea certainly never "covered the whole modern China, Siberia, and Manchuria". The farthest Koreans ever got into Asia was under the Koguryo kingdom, which extended partially into China and Siberia, but compared to the full size of these lands, it was nowhere near "the whole" of them.
Siberia:

China:



Rest assured, Koreans did not create Chinese characters either. Chinese script goes back at least four millennia, and evolved in Chinese lands. In fact, Koreans and Japanese borrowed Chinese script until they developed their own scripts, which still borrowed partially from Chinese (Hanja, Kanji).

As for Korea "civilizing" the Japanese, that has about as much meaning as saying that Europe civilized the Americans. There was no "Japan" before the ancient Korean ancestors of the modern Japanese settled the Japanese islands. Japan was settled by the ancient Koreans who went there, and it was mainly they who created Japan, not the ones who stayed behind. So it's not like a modern Korean can say to a modern Japanese "We civilized you" when they are in fact both related, kindred peoples.

That said, there was significant cultural influence from Baekje and Silla to Japan. And don't forget the major Chinese influence on Japan during the Asuka, Nara and Heian periods as well.

You do not know what the hell you are talking about when you say "korea civilized japan". Japanese civilized japan. Now had you said japanese people at one time were koreans I would have agreed.

"People who take too much pride in their country, or identify themselves too much with their country have inferiority complex themselves." (time-proven wisdom of psychology)

I first heard this in Psy 100 when I was a frosh, and time and again it was proven correct. Usually they are the people with too much time on their hand, hopeless narcicists who lives in his own little world or ones that doensn't have life of their own. (you know the type)

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I'm talking about people of any nation.
People... life is short. get out there and have you own life instead of sitting in front of computer and get all pumped up about something that will not even remotely affect you. Have a girl friend for crying out loud. have a career plan. Get a job.
It's not coincident that nationalism is rampant in a country where employment rate is plummeted.

^ I agree, being that most of us on this board are Asian American we gotta stick together, where's the Asian unity? If we keep up this legacy of so-called "pride" inherited from our parents, future generations in this country are in deep sh!t

Ignoring is not the best way to solve problems

you know people, i never thought koreans invented chinese characters, as a matter of fact i was pretty sure as that did not make sense but i left that open to be corrected. as far as japan, i meant koreans went to japan and replaced the jomon stoneage, that is what i meant by 'civilize'. I did read somewhere that the northern manchurians were primarily responsible for extending china's borders, i know about koguryo but that the manchurians would be genetically koreans, this is what i have read.

I am not trying to start an argument, geesh

DaMo,

This is a off topic but I was wondering if you had any knowledge of how to trace ancestry based on last names such as Kang, or Park? Do certain last names trace back to certain regions, tribes, or kingdoms of Korea? I was told there is a line of Kang that is a descendent of Ghenghis Khan, could this be true or not?

If you're referring to China under the the (Manchu) Qing Dynasty, she did gain a lot of territory during that time, although most of China's lasting territorial expansion was accomplished prior to the Qing Dynasty, especially under the Qin, Han and Tang dynasties, and with no Manchu (or Korean) help. Even the Manchus would not have been able to expand all on their own using only Manchu troops and Manchu people; they depended on the size and might of the Chinese military and the Chinese people. It was not a sole acomplishment of the Manchus, but a Chinese accomplishment as well. In any case, while the Qing initially did gain a lot of territory, they will also go down in Chinese history as the dynasty that lost the most territory and power through negligent and short-sighted foreign and domestic policies in the 19th century.

And the Manchus are not Koreans either.

I really have no idea.

This is copied from somewhere else for anyone's enjoyment. It is in response to african-american claims to japan BUT korea was never mentioned yet this person(japanese i believe) felt compelled to throw korea in inferring a link or connection between koreans and blacks as 'slaves'. This is representative of the current collective mind.

I don't know about Koreans being slaves (conquered occassionally, perhaps, but not really enslaved), but some Koreans do have a tendency to make ludicrous claims on the civilizations and accomplishments of other nations. The claim about the Koreans inventing Chinese script, for instance.

Well, I've never heard that before except on this forum once about the chinese script and as far as ridiculous claims China and Japan are just as guilty. There are some gray areas and its understandable considering korea's history. As far as accomplishments, which are you referring to? the samurai? Well, i personally believe it was heavily influenced by korea probably paekche, can this be proven? I dont think so, does this mean korea is claiming we indeed have japanese 'samurai' or could not be true? Of course not and a lot of things cannot be proven or even sufficently traced for that matter. I personally could care less about korea's so-called claims because even when legitimate claims are made they are still not recognized or shot down by nationals and thats from all sides.

I never said they weren't. What do you think I have been doing on this thread for the last few days? Even so, that doesn't excuse false Korean claims.


I was originally referring to the claims that Koreans created Chinese script and were among the founding heroes of ancient China and such.
The Baekje/Paekche and Yamato did forge a military alliance at one point, and subsequently exchanged martial know-how, but the samurai themselves were Japanese natives and the techniques and philosophy that distinguished them from run-of-the-mill continental horseback warriors evolved on Japanese soil, long after Paekje had been invaded by Silla and ceased to exist as a separate nation.

What do you mean run-of-the-mill continental horseback riders? The bushido was not the first warrior code and they were not the first ones to have a spiritual attitude towards warfare, though bushido and samurai are distinctly 'japanese'.
I disagree with you, I believe the seed of what would later bloom into 'samurai' was born in korea first and part of my suspicion is the natural intensity of koreans, their strategic location, their underdog status and their intense determination to keep their identity.

So wushi/musa/bushi is now originated in Korea?

NO, just pointing out warrior code of honor and spiritual attitude towards war already existed before japan, these were modified and the samurai and bushido was born.

Gotcha Because I was about to say that wushi/musa/bushi existed in China too, but I don't know exactly how long ago though.

Precisely my point

You need to get your brain checked.