We have the Technology to Viscerally think as a Family.

A friend forwarded me a video which is a really nice summary of Jeremy Rifkin's "The Empathic Civilization". I thought you might like it too.

http://diydharma.org/blog/empathic-civilization

Materialism.

Really Do It Yourself Dharma???

Its a fabulous site! My favourite teacher Shinzen Young is on that list of DIY Dharma too!

So, you aren't afraid of adding to the trappings you already have accumulated???
Well, party on ...

It'll take me lifetime(s) dude! You know the sangha will keep it less bumpy?

What are the motives of those who choose to find the truth by becoming hermits and meditating their way to understanding???

When a person becomes a fan of some singer, he goes out and buys the music.
Plays the songs and sings along. The stereo becomes tuned to CD's of this singer.
He spends time meeting people and a nice girl and all the while plays this music.
The music becomes associated with everything in his life.

I'm sure that it is the right thing to do ... to find people who are like yourself
On a journey, living life and meditating, working through Karma.
Learning as much as you can.
But, do you have a filter?? Something to tell yourself if this is too much or do you need more??
I see you busy ... all over the internet and newspapers and radio and such ...
Does it become too much at any time??
Or do you really process it all??

Do you go on retreats??
What do you take with you??
What do you leave there??

Sorry, never mind me ... the meds for my back pain has gotten quite useless.
I'm just out complaining about life.

Why do ancient sages like Laotze, Mahavira, Moses, Buddha, Christ, Muhamad etc... all speak of contemplative journeys in solitude?

We are surrounded by girlfriends, popular music, drugs, politics, hatred and desires 24-7, 365 days. The solitary contemplative time is the only time we have that it truly ours. The only time your mind is really tuned to examining it's own actions and reactions. the only time you can study your own consciousness and how it is separate or connected.

What you bring to a solitary contemplative retreat is your consciousness. What you come out of it is your consciousness. The quality of your consciousness may change after a sojourn.

The hatred, aversions, frustrations, obstacles, unbeliefs, desires, lust, grasping, pop music reloop, memories and nostalgia are witnessed with equanimity. The timelessness of sitting quietly in contemplation witnessing the consciousness working its way with your body, causing sensations, pleasurable and painful, it's all training for when you come out of the simulated hermit life to face the vissicitudes of life.

The monks who give dhamma talks are servers. They are like the Laotze, Mahavira, Moses, Buddha, Christ, Muhamad ... lighthouses who shine thru darkness or the bodhi trees who grant shade heedlessly, providing the refuge where you and I can shelter in stormy weather.

Are you planning one? A retreat soon?

The world is my sangha. Where do I retreat to, girl?

What the hermit learns in solitude is in the association of solitude ... what happens when he comes down to regular life??
Does that quality of consciousness translate into everyday life and everyday grind??
Unless you talk about a true transition to clarity then, the trip was too brief to bring the wanted results.
Take for example the drug addict who promises to go to rehab. While there, plays by the rules and achieve sobriety for a while
Back in his environment, the temptations lure him back .. his old mind set returns .. little by little what was learned is lost
Back to chasing the high ... back to the nightmare of lies and twisted truths.

Don't get me wrong ... sojourns are necessary for the soul and spirit
Trials must take place and the test must be taken to find the truth.
The hermit must climb the mountain to find his solitude for the peace he seeks

Once after one of my more intense sittings. I spoke to my nephew.
I told him that the secret to the world is in how you look at everything with your eyes
And that his mind determined the very nature of the existence of the world.
He looked at me as if I was high on drugs.
I thought I had given the secret to the world and how to change it ...
The meditation that made those insight seem amazing and intense .. it changed the way I saw the world
It did nothing to change the world. Sometimes truth is in the eyes of the beholder ... lol

I have a family and must work to pay for every little thing.
Money is tight for me and mine. So, no plans for a retreat.
And my memories of the ones (actually two) I had gone to ... were so full of misery and desire to leave
that I have no wish to return to such suffering.
Yes, my body is lazy and my mind is tired
I've given up on finding a teacher and seeing the goal of these teachings.
I wish you much luck on your sojourns.

Serve the sangha, mister! not with lectures and admonitions the typical authoritarian chinese way! Try generating metta. Sometimes words just carry no meaning and become reloops in the head.





He does the laundry. But he's more in tune now with the flux in the machines and life. He could make the washing machine run better rather than kick the crap out of it.



That quality of consciousness translates into everyday flux as we continue a daily practice with discipline and perseverence without expectations. 20 minutes witnessing is what i can do, and I try to do it whilst driving, whilst eating, before sleeping, whilst chillin out with my bro, whilst listening to my mom's fears and my dad's stony silence, whilst typing to you!



Sometimes, there are such things as making drugs a manageable part of one's life, instead of it being the center of one's life.

Is that a cop-out?

We learn to live with the addict. We learn to identify the addict within us too. What's your addiction? Mine's to "drivenness" of thought. But that was before my sojourns. Now, I can relax and chill with my bro and not be driven by my sisterly love and angst to make it uncomfortable for him to be in my space.






It would be fab if the hermit did his thing and went his way quietly all life. But some like Moses, Christ, Muhamad Sai Baba, Joseph Smith etc... all get caught up in the spiritual chase and come down from their mountains proclaiming they found their Gods. Maybe it's the followers who hear the wrong thing and scribble down the wrong edicts, they leave no blueprints on how to following them up to the mountains or the deserts
and contemplate.



He only heard you, just like the followers of Christ heard what they wanna hear, and scribble down what they can be only an intellectual perception of what they thought they heard. They haven't gone through the fire of contemplation experientially.

How can you begrudge your nephew? Take him to a one day meditation course for children and teens. Or just sit with him in silence and tell him let's just listen to the pitter patter of the rains together.




Every household has their suffering. It's universal.

Dont have to leave the householder's life physically to seek liberation. Its a mind journey dude.

You gonna have to excuse the language. It is a habit to express myself in such way.

And if you notice I don't bother to give lessons to anyone else besides Avisitor on this forum, no offense to anyone. He might not like my attitude and show a lot of resistance, but he does reflect on what I say. Why do I even bother with him and not anyone else? Don't you worry about me giving lessons to others because I don't unless people ask me to.

I was gonna correct you on "trying to generate metta" but I will not bother. Actually, I was gonna correct you on a lot of things. But I never bother to.













































Still not good enough.

error*

Yes, there is a movement in American Buddhism towards that. Buddhist Naturalism. They cut out all the hocus pocus and supernatural entities like devas and spirits. They reject rebirth and reincarnations. The mahayana-style hells and rituals. And just study the brain and the nature of consciousness with respect to space and time. Not a bad thing to do.

I am happy you don't bother with correcting my 'errors'. I am not into correcting you either. Just thought you might wanna pipe down that's all... and keep the peace and tranquility in the garden.

It's nice, isn't it? The peace and tranquility?

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. The moment was here and now it is gone.
No man can step into the river in the same place twice.

Okay, have it your way.

No, I understand managing addictions and I also know about binges ... I wish I didn't know so much

Is that a cop-out?

My addiction is listening to this internal dialogue

Yes it is so easy to miss the truth and find one's self proclaiming things with such confidence ... of all the memories to keep, embarrassing

He isn't a follower of such things. His is a world of digital facts and digital games
Video games ...


So does the journey start with a foot step or not??? lol

For me it started with sitting on a cushion.

And then the zen poetry came alive in flux.
The world became more alive and connected.


Into the World

Meditation is not just a rest or retreat from the turmoil of the stream or the impurity of the world. It is a way of being the stream, so that one can be at home in both the white water and the eddies. Meditation may take one out of the world, but it also puts one totally into it.

Gary Snyder

1)On this special occasion, I have to reject any teachings that does not involve rebirth as Buddhism since rebirth is the manifestation of karma.

2)In my opinion, materialism further leads us towards suffering.

3)I will reason that if Buddha exists, devas and spirits, human, animals, hungry ghosts, and heavenly beings also exist.

4)Western Buddhist practitioners are largely converts who came from Christian background or athiests who rely heavily on material science. So these people's mode of thinking cannot leave the realm of God's existence and non-existence. And these people usually cannot grasp the teachings of Buddhism-4 Noble Truths and Dependent Origination.



Peace and tranquility is an imagination until all attachments are completely abandoned.



I would say even though I have not fully tasted it. Only momentary.

You can correct me on the ground of Buddhist teachings but anything else you and I are still attached. So why even bother?

The way I see it is you are not gonna always agree with what I say and likewise. It's best that we present our views in a reasonable manner.

Whether it's a belief in materialism or supernaturalism, it all leads to suffering, don't they?




Yes, you are right about Western buddhist practitioners but they sure made life easier for the easterners like you and me to be communicating more broadly and open-mindedly even though it may be against the teachings of established mahayana suttas.





Very curious.
Momentary? Is it when your chantings ceased?






Howabout doing the same with others (AV)? Or are you ultimately aiming to 'convert' him?

Yes. However, Buddhism is not supernaturalism. Buddhism teaches Dependent Origination-empty of inherent self and 4 Noble Truths. Yes, there are supernatural components in the teachings which some converts find repulsive due to association with Gods existence or non-existence. If one follows and practices properly, one will become free from conditioned suffering and happiness.

If a being such as Buddha exist, there should not be a reason why beings such as devas cannot exist. All sentient beings have different karmas and therefore manifest in different forms.



I must admit there are things that we can learn from discussion if done properly.



This is a misconception. Mahayana Suttas do not forbid open-minded discussion.

I also want to mention that a lot of people were scarred by the teachings of Christianity. And tend to associate such mentality with Buddhism. In this case an investigation is needed.



I become less attached to certain thinking patterns and behavior. However, change is gradual and slow.



I don't communicate with my boss the same way I communicate with my sister. I don't communicate with my friends the same way I communicate with someone whom I meets on the street. And not others just Avisitor.

'Convert' seems not appropriate since he has been practicing meditation and little familiar with 4 Noble Truths.

And I honestly want to say if I major and study Chemistry and have a conversation with someone who knows little Chemistry or does not major in Chemistry, I can tell that the person knows little about Chemistry. It's not a matter of my knowledge is better than yours. But a matter of honesty and knowing one's own limits or understanding of a particular subject that we are pursuing. Of course, everything is open to discussion if one is honestly willing to engage.

Now I must admit that my wordings might repulse him. However, his best mood does not always show either. I say I can only try. And it's fun to converse with him sometimes though . And apparently, he does not take $hit from anybody. So he can defend himself, don't you worry. It's no harm to play with each other's emotions for a little bit. However, there are limits to be drawn there.

But I do process well what you said. It must take this occasion to thank you.

Have you personally come across the devas in your practice?




You must admit with the www, you wouldn't have probably been able to learn about your buddhist suttas, right?




Didn't make it clear sorry, the Mahayana suttas do not forbid open-minded discussion of course, but they do have dogmas about things that have yet to be proven.




We have all met these people who are scarred by the indoctrination of satan and hell... and what not. But it would seem that Mahayana buddhism has their own satans (mara) and hells too...right?




You are getting skillful..




So you are showing the blueprint to liberation to him, when he already knows his path wordlessly.




Precisely, that's a skillful observation.



If I were a supernaturalist, I'd think the two of you were husband and wife or a mantis and grasshopper in your countless past lives..



No, it's thanks to you, my kalyani-mitta that I still get to enjoy genuine dialogue and conversation on this board. With others*, it's like talking to a wall...

No. My practice is to decrease attachment to habitual thinking and behavior.

However, I heard advanced practitioners of sitting traditions do reach realms of Brahmins or heaven beings in their meditative stages and sometime they are mistaken it for Nirvana. Therefore they are stuck in this realms.



Yes, I do learn frome exchanging understanding with fellows on DharmaWheel. But my understanding of Buddhism did not originate from the website. And I devote my own time and efforts to understand Buddhist teachings through reading and listening to interpretations of Sutras. So I have learned Sutras before I found the website. And I still listen to Sutra teachings everyday.

In order to keep in touch with Buddhist teachings, one must not leave the teachings. Listening to Sutras, frequent the website, keep in touch with practitioners are way to keep in touch with teachings. This is important because Buddhist teachings are meant to get rid of suffering. One must continue to rehearse it in order for it to sink it since the nature of karma (habitual thinking and behavior) is also repetitive.



Yes, there are things that are not proven by conceptualization of the thinking falculty as we are often errored by attachment. However, it cannot be disproved either. It would be conceiting to reject things that we don't understand, affirming that we know it is not true.

Some people say rebirth cannot be proven. However, without rebirth Buddha would have not taught Dependent Origination and 4 Noble Truths since rebirth is an inherent part of Dependent Origination teaching. In the context of Buddhist teachings, it makes a lot of sense. But those who came from an athiest or Christian background might find it hard to accept rebirth. So in this case, further investigation into Buddhism (Elder and Mahayana) is needed. So if I want to dispute Aristotle, I must understand his philosophy or his way of thinking. It is the attachment to previous encounter that we must abandon in order to see things in a more objective manner.

And just to be clear, Dependent Origination and 4 Noble Truths are the basic teachings of all Buddhisms not just Mahayana. Basic, yet subtle and profound. And in fact all the Buddhist teachings are just elaborating of Depedent Origination and 4 Noble Truths.

I am not denying that are teachings are not accurate within all traditions of Buddhism.



I understand. However, the concept of hell and maras in Buddhism needs some investigation. Hells in Buddhism is the experience of one's own mind since nothing exists outside of mind. Like suffering is what one feels when one nurtures ill thoughts. Maras are the worldly attachments that tempt us. However, there are also maras that exist apart from worldly attachments. Just like there are human beings, there are animals, there are brahmas, there are hungry ghosts, there are maras. There are different manifestations of delusion. Then there are Buddhas. So if Buddha is believable, why can't heaven beings believable? I think it is bit misleading to put pure trust in the 5 senses...For example, consciousness exists but we cannot find it anywhere even at subatomic level since it cannot be directly observed by the senses because it is not tangible or a substance. There are many questions cannot be answered at Quantum level. Material science encounters problems when it comes to Quantum Mechanics.




1) I find "wordlessly" to be a problem. Wordlessly means absense of conceptualization. In other words, beyond words or words cannot express. If this is the case, then he must be free from suffering.
Concepts or conceptualizations are conventional ways of understanding the world around us. When Buddha taught his disciples, he had to teach them through conventional ways so that they can understand since his disciples were still limited by conceptualization of the thinking falculty.

2) If one claims to have understanding "wordlessly," then one must also have no limitations in expressing himself or herself in conventional language with reasoning since Buddha was able to do this. Even though language has its limitations, experience still can be translated into language. Otherwise, I must conclude this is the case of conceit.

3) True knowledge and experience should set one free. If these work to further bring suffering, then these are not true.

4) Lastly, I hope you are aware that you are speaking on his behalf.

What can I say on his behalf and on your behalf and my behalf? The Dhamma is wordless.

You can develop an uncanny ability to convey the truth of the wordless Dhamma to your listeners in the form of a simile, a conceptualization, inferring etc. But in the end, we still need to be in practice. And the practice is to simply watch all the while being totally open and aware of everything that is happening inside and outside ourselves.

It would be lovely if our conceptualizations, inferred knowledge and similes are fresh, easy to follow, humorous, best of all, poetic that invariably, strike a place in the heart where it jars or inspires the most. But it's the still the practice that would liberate.



Perhaps you would consider undertaking the meditation techniques as taught in the Satipatthana Sutta someday? Just reading the sutta or listening to it won't liberate. Gotta practise, dude.

http://zencohen.us/?p=456

I think you made an another false assumption there. Like I said my practice is to decrease attachment to habitual thinking and behavior. And practice constitutes different things as practice is wholesome. [Putting 50 cents in the donation jar for charity for example is a practice of letting go of greed. It might be miniscule but over time it will reflect through thinking and behavior. That is just an example. And here is the offensive part. If someone keeps sitting in meditation but he or she still not recognize his/her indulgence in material possessions through mass consumption when he/she could save some money to give it to the poor and the sick. If we really care for the animals for example, we should start consuming less meats and eventually become a vegetarian. This practice can fall under compassionate teaching. You can practice sitting for the rest of your life and will not be liberated if you don't practice detaching yourself from indulging in sensual pleasures. I will tell you now don't kid yourself. Buddhism is not for everyone. Some of us like to pick and choose and this puts limits on our understanding of Buddhism. Sorry I have to be direct. And if you are able to see clearly, attachment to sensual pleasures will bring suffering. Just like there is conditioned happiness, there is conditioned suffering. Knowing this alone will help you see the source of your suffering. So it's more than just words if you can see that clearly.] And for you to make such a false assumption when you don't really know what I practice...to you sitting in one place is practice, to me practice can be anytime anywhere any place. But does not matter what you as long as you are breaking your old mental and behavioral habits.

I think it is a bit conceit of you to tell me what liberates me and what will not. Likewise, I can tell you sitting in one place to find the mind will not liberate you. However, I choose not to disrespect what you do as long as you are lessening suffering. But I think you have a bad taste for telling me that I have to sit like you in order to be liberated.

Also like I mentioned, karma is just old habits. Buddhist teachings are meant to work against those habits, however you have to rehearse the teachings over and over again in your head until it sinks in. This is how therapy works. You go to the therapist over and over again, and the therapist keeps reinforcing cognitive behavioral therapy on you...it's psychological too.

The tradition Pure Land that I come from does not do sitting meditations like other sitting meditations. I know to you it is just another fairy tale. Before you jump to any conclusions about Pure Land, I ask that you further investigate into it and likewise with Buddhism in general such as Elder and Mahayana. This piece is for you to recognize where I come from. It's a matter of respect as Buddhism is diverse as it is. Mindfulness.

It's a matter of having respect for different tastes. Some people are happy with brown and sesame seeds. Some people require steaks to be happy. However, you are welcome to demonstrate your insights through your discipline if you still insist that I should follow your advice. So in other words, why should I take your advice? You will have to convince me that your practice is better than mine or demonstrate to me clearly that sitting is best suited for me or why I should practice sitting. This would require insights on your part through your practice and if this these insights have liberated you. And we have to establish what practice constitutes-not just recitation or sitting. What I am asking is reasonable. If you don't have that ability, then I will have to say no thank you. We will not agree with each other. So it is best that we present reasons.

I am being generous. Otherwise, I would tell you that you know nothing about Buddhism, and a novice at best. You sit but you don't know why you sit. And you approach Buddhism with the materialistic mindset when Buddhism is about liberating from such. It's funny how people pick and choose to fit their needs instead of following it to liberate themselves, they further bind themselves to suffering. Forgive me, but for you to tell me that I should sit like you to liberate myself, I find that personal considering your backgrounds on Buddhism. That's like someone who have taken a couple courses on Chemistry and tell the chemist how to experiment in the lab.

Whatever you do if it does not help to decrease suffering, then your approach is wrong. Notice I don't undermine the Elder tradition...true experience and knowledge should set us free.

It's the old habit of conceit. [for me and you]

So further investigation into Buddhism is needed, with due respect.

I hope you are clear now that where I am coming from.

Since the time of Buddha, there have been many who have crossed to the truth of the nature of the mind
But, since the traditions of the branches of Buddhism, there have been less than a few
Something is fundamental wrong in the teachings if there are no more true masters
But, with the never ending line of followers who believe they know all the truth through their reading of the books and listening to sutras,
there will always be some to proclaim their right to hold the bowl ...

As Tangy said, it is only through practice, .. right practice that one can see the truth of the nature of the mind
True effort must be made to discover who one is and where one belongs ....
All this book reading and listening to lectures are fine for the scholars
Are you a scholar???

I have never claimed I know the truth. I am only concerned with decreasing suffering. However, I will know when someone does not know about Buddhist teachings. And I am not just saying this. I also have mentioned to you and Tanga that if you disagree with my understanding of Buddhist teachings, please feel free to use reasoning to correct. Otherwise, you should remain fair in your view, and refraining from seeing me as someone who knows the truth, which I don't. If I do, I would be free from suffering already.

And I mentioned what practice constitutes. Sitting in one place is not practice.

Stop jumping the bandwagon and pulling some straw man.

And if you pay attention I already addressed your concern about booking reading. If you know nothing about Buddhist teachings and sitting, you are like like a man walking in the dark with no lights. Pay attention. No, I understand Buddhist teachings and I am not enlightened or know the truth. If you are disagreeing with what I say, feel free to debate me with your insights. Strictly on the ground of Buddhist teachings. If you are still not satisfied, you will have to convince me with your insights that you have gained through meditation. You can express that in conventional language, can you? Your concern about book reading or book knowledge has been dealt with. So if you could stop flogging the dead horse, that would be great.

And no I am not a scholar. I practice Buddhism. Now, feel free to debate me what practice constitutes if you know. Otherwise stop pulling your projection or straw man attack on me.

And since you keep pressing on practice. Let me ask you a question: Why do you practice for?

Do u want me to talk about the experience of sitting?

This is not possible in conventional language.

The greatest difficulty for the spiritual enthusiast probably originates in the glimpses of suprasensory reality that he/she might experience. Spiritual contemplative experiences are not an achievement to discuss, share or boast about. They widen, deepen and raise the consciousness, and this change should be reflected in outer life, making the person more considerate, compassionate and contented.

You are my kalyani-mitta just as AV is. You are not an adversary for me to judge and compare in terms of our scholastic knowledge or contemplative experience.

Mahayanists do undertake some form of meditation, even if it's not formal sitting practice. Unfortunately, some may be looking for a miracle, which is a common wasteful distraction. If you sit and observe, ordinary life is itself a miracle – no other miracles are necessary for inspiring your contemplative sittings.

There is a difference in effort between straining and concentration. Concentration (from contemplative practices) helps, but straining hinders spiritual growth. Anxiety, restlessness, anger and laziness are an expression of the ego. Ego divides you as an individual from the rest. You keep judging other's path in your quest to understand your own.

We could use ancient Pali words to show off our scholastic knowledge of the suttas, but since you ask for conventional language to guide one another, I try as best as i can to do so. But it's a feeble effort when compared to the bhikkus and great philosophers in the east and west who have done contemplation their entire lives.

The Buddha is but just one of the great explorers of the internal world. We have them in the shamanic, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and countless other traditions too. But his discourses do present a precise blueprint for the journey. The first step is in sitting. Just as he did under the bodhi tree.

This is good if it helps to decrease suffering. That's the point of practice.



I must tell you now that I am not a scholar and my understanding of Buddhism is different from that of a scholar. And I practice Buddhism. If you paid close attention, you will understand what practice means in my tradition. To you is sitting. To me, my practice is not sitting. How can I be clearer?



I will advise you again to study Mahayana before you jump to any conclusion. And to understand Mahayana, first you have to understand the basic teachings of 4 Noble Truths and Dependent Origination.

This is the reason why you should study Buddhism before discussing it.




I will tell you now that until you are free from suffering, your deluded mind will manifest in one form or another. I do agree, however, that over time the attachment will decrease.



If you study Buddhism to show off your knowledge, then you might as well focus on getting rich.

Your assumption is what I practice is not contempletive simply because I don't sit. Then you must explain what contempletive here means.



I have nothing against sitting traditions. However, sitting is not the only meditation form of practice. In fact, it is only a part of the teachings.

And I will have to correct you sitting is not the first step. If anything, it is meditation. And this will beg the question, "What is meditation?"

Right View is the first step.


And notice right concentration is not equivalent to sitting. There is no prescriptive form of meditation. Just right concentration.

Using blanketing and fabricating statements are common these days. It's amazing how the deluded mind manifests itself.

It's not a matter of conceit or my knowledge is better than yours. But at some point, we have to accept our own limitations. It's matter of honesty. Otherwise it will be very hard to engage in any type of discussion.

Jealousy is also a habit or a tendency to feel that we are better when there are others who know more than we do.

Does this discussion generate any of the 3 defilements for you?

Sitting, contemplation, meditation - it's the same term but perhaps you wanna split hairs on where they lead you on the path of concentration? Samatha, jhanas, vipassana?

Pure Land has mindful meditation practices. It may not be in a formal sitting but a chanting prayer or visualization mode, but all are meditation modes on the Amitabha. You have said before many times, your practice consists of ceaselessly chanting the Amitabha.

You might be getting skillful at that and trying to observe and label your levels of consciousness now.

Do you have a teacher or guide?


P/s - Other traditions follow the Pure Land technique of chanting prayers or visualization mode too... such as chanting "Ma-ra-na-ta" in the Aramaic language and contemplating on the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then you have the Sufi chanting and dancing. And Hindu contemplative practices have loads of mantras too.

These traditions have literature that may be discussing the levels of consciousness during the state of deep meditation or contemplation, but as i said before, it's all experential. No one here would understand the meanings of these discussions if they do not engage in those contemplative/meditational practices themselves by sitting down or kneeling or doing their ablutions and other ritualistic prayers.

Defilements are always there.



Numerous times you have invited me to practice sitting. So I have to be clear with you where I am coming from. That is all.




I have but you seem not to understand where I am coming from. And you keep speaking of practice as if sitting is the only form of right concentration.

So I have to broaden your understanding.



That's not necessary.



Yes, Buddha.




I am not asking to understand your experience. To be honest, I am happy with Pure Land. I could careless about your experience, no offense. What I am asking is if you are able to translate your experience into language? For example, if someone asks you to explain suffering. What would you tell the person?

Once again, I want to emphasize that meditation is to increase wisdom by decreasing ignorance therefore decreasing suffering. Because of this, I must press that there is wisdom that can be translated into language if were are to convey some Buddhist teachings through experience to someone.

Have you experienced the burning and purification of a defilement? Have you experienced the generation of a defilement?




Have you experienced bodily and mindfully what you understand?





I can regurgitate all the written wisdom on the explanation of Dukkha, but the listener ultimately still has to experience Dukkha - that's the experiential wisdom that will lead to the experience of cessation of Dukkha, not just an understanding of it.

How does he experience it?

He can do your Pure Land chanting on the Amitabha.

Or he can do a Thai forest style meditation formal sitting in practice.

Or he can go through the rituals of Vajrayana style meditation.

Or he can utter Ma-ra-na-tha ceaselessly in quiet contemplation with his rosaries.

Different strokes for different folks. But all contemplative practices lead to an inner and outer transformation to a more peaceful, harmonious and compassionate way of living and talking.

Do you wonder if you have a compulsive obsession with spirituality? This could help guide you:

edit: the last sentence is plain wrong. allow me to humbly apologise for making any form of judgment that is uncalled for. :anjali

http://zencohen.us/?p=547

No. I don't practice Theravada.



Meaning?

I experience anger and other emotional reactions. These are defilements. And I see where it's arising from and where it's going.




I believe you are referring to the experience of your sitting tradition. Does this help you decrease suffering?

Bodily, I don't engage in stealing, killing, cheating, drugs, and lies. Mindfully, I try to beware of my own thinking and reactions, and beware of what I say to people.

And I am working towards becoming a vegetarian.

And no, I don't own any smart phones. My phone is very cheap. And I don't buy lavish things to indulge myself.



You can regurgitate but does not mean you can understand it.

1) Understanding the teachings first, then come the experiential wisdom or understanding. Experiential understanding works to get rid of suffering, I agree.

2) Understanding the teachings is part of the practice. And like how therapy works, the repetitive nature of Buddhist teachings work the same way. However, this does not mean meditation is not required. You are right that understanding alone does not liberate but it is an essential part of teachings.

3) Instead of filling our heads with worldly attachments, we can fill our heads with Buddhist teachings. Skillful?



I agree.



No, I don't think I do. I am all about decreasing suffering. However, we all have this CO for thinking and behavior. This habit is known as karma.

And you are not interested in the Theravada mode.




Are you sure you are not interested in the Theravada mode?





Still uninterested in the Theravada mode?





In Theravada mode, it is simpler than that.



Bravo!



+1 interested in the experiential side of mind/body eh?



+1 i guess you are agree that meditation is the mode for experiential side of mind/body? but only after or before right understanding?




You still interested in the Theravada mode? If so, we get the right understanding only after observing ourselves in meditation and yes, we reread the teachings over and over again and listen to discourse over and over again and as our meditation practice deepens our intellectual understanding matures and we feel the instinctual body and mindful urge to give back and serve and develop our ten paramittas.






Inevitably yes. That is why I see the value of meditation practice. I have tried mantras and it did not wear down the desire for doing and thinking more. But as I sit in stilled meditation, the difference between suffering and equanimity will become clear to the mind. When the mind sees suffering over and over again and then clearly sees the cause of suffering, it gets worn down – when the mind sees anger over and over again and then clearly sees the cause of anger, it gets worn down.

May you remain mindful in every moment of every day, may you see the cause of suffering for yourself, and may you discover the end of it.

My main practice is recitation. It's a matter of taste. Any other practice are supplementary, however, essential. Mahayana is a comprehensive tradition that incorporates all teachings of different traditions. Like I said, Mahayana is an elaboration of 4 Noble Truths and Dependent Origination which are the basic tenets of Buddhism in general.



No, it is not simpler than that. In Theravada, you still need to keep the mind, body, and speech from engaging in attachment. The basic precepts you still need to keep.




Let me say this one more time. My main practice is recitation. And no, I am not interested in the sitting practice of Theravada. However, there are components of 4 Noble Truths I also practice. It is mistaken to claim that these components are exclusively Theravada since Mahayana teachings have never left 4 Noble Truths and Dependent Origination. Again, Mahayana is comprehensive.

Let me further make it clear about my practice through 4 Noble Truths:



Notice Right Understanding falls under Wisdom. Right Understanding can be cultivated through reflection using Buddha's teachings.

Under Morality, there are precepts that you keep the mind, body, and speech from engaging in attachment. Things such as stealing, lies, killing, etc.

Under Concentration, you have right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. For right concentration, instead of sitting, I practice recitation.

I don't think I am being clear enough. But I hope that you have an idea what experiential wisdom is now, especially from the perspective of my practice. Experiential wisdom accumulates bit by bit over time. Like putting a drop of water into the cup everyday, you will eventually fill the cup.

All the practices together will lead to concentration. And here how it goes: Morality/Conducts-Concentration-Wisdom. The three are one and cannot separated and does not go in order. If there is Wisdom, there will be Morality and Concentration. If there is Morality, then there will be Concentration and Wisdom. If there is Concentration, there will Wisdom and Morality. If someone practices Tantra for example, he/she practices Concentration. If someone practices Pure Land through recitation of Amitabha, he/she practices Concentration. If someone practice sitting meditation of Theravada, he/she practices Concentration.

So the question then is what is Wisdom? Simple, if there is a decrease in attachment, then there is an increase in Wisdom which is why we become less attached and less suffered everyday. With Wisdom, the mind becomes sharp and able to comprehend things and see things clear than before. With full blown Wisdom, one becomes enlightened.

No offense again, I am not concerning with sensational experience or seeing divas, spirits, or ghosts or whatever. With recitation, one rarely encounters these anyway. So not applicable.



Before or after. It depends on one's capacity. Some people became instantly liberated after hearing Buddha's words. However, there are those like myself who need to cultivate concentration in order to see clearly. When the mind is completely aware of all phenomona and see everything clearly, yet it is not disturbed, attached, or distracted by it. This is called concentration or sammadhi, thus leads to full blown Wisdom.

Hey, were you a member of E-Sangha before it broke up into DWx2?

Anyways, I wouldn't dream of seeing Buddhism united in one school... there's so many out there.

Byou are bound to succeed, don't concern yourself on doctrinal differences, just keep on with your concentration practice, and if you need to clarify some mental states, check with the DW bhikkus who have been there and can show you the lamp.

You practice to decrease suffering??
How does your practice decrease suffering??
For whom does it decrease suffering??

Ah, hundreds of masters are wrong for practicing meditation???
Oh, You are so very wise (hehehe)

After some very deep meditation, I spoke to my nephew of the truth I perceived.
He choose to look at my revelations like I was crazy.
What proof or insight do you wish me to provide???
So, you will also call me crazy???

Your understanding of Buddhism is like the scholar.
What difference is there from you and the scholar??? No practice???
What do I practice for?? Don't you see?? To become perfect in the nature of mind and come to understanding??
What do you want me to do?? Practice for practice sake???
Show me why you deserve to hold the bowl and carry on like a teacher ... spreading the word like a master??
Wow, this time the nurse got the meds right today, ... weee!!!

There is "I," that's why there is practice when everything is interdependent (like a seed dependent on water, soil, sunlight, and temperature to become a plant. Like a table dependent on the wood of plant to become a table. Where is inherent self but emptiness of inherent existence?) Then why do we hold on to this body like it's ours? The answer is because of karma.



Masters were not wrong because they did not just sit.



You are not crazy. You need guidance, which you do recognize on your part..



I am not a master. Like you I am a learner.

I have no such powers to influence people.

I would say now be very good to your mom.

Hey AV, I think GW's message is potent. Your energy is low. So you keep pushing back his message.

A quiet mind full of well-being is needed to discern what GW repeats.

His Pureland methodology is recitation of the Amitabha. That's like a bludgeon, to push all distraction out of the mind.

My school of meditation is the theravada vipassana mode which is more like building up from the gross to the subtle, the blueprint is in the Satipattana sutta which I am building up my energy and skillfulness to attend next year. It dwells on body sensations from the gross to the subtle. While GW's methodology seems to dwell on the mind and mental contents. Perhaps he's more of an introvert and this methodology works for him, whereas as an extrovert, I am suited for the body sensations mode.

Anyways, I didn't make this up, this is talked about my meditation commentators (Soma):

Personality-based typography

According to Analāyo (2006, pp. 24–25) and Soma (2003, pp. xxii - xxiv), the Papañcasudani recommends a different satipaṭṭhāna depending on whether a person:

* tends more toward affective craving or intellectual speculation; or
* is more measured in their responses or quick reacting.

Based on these two dimensions there is a recommended personality-based satipaṭṭhāna is reflected in the grid below.

(see the grid in this link)

The whole practice of mindfulness meditation depends on the correct grasp of the exercises for the personality type, interesting isnt it?

Yes, each individual on his own journey will take a path chosen by that person.
Each will see his path as right for them. This is no doubt.
But, as can be seen, unless one has a true master to guide ... it becomes a very difficult task to rise above the average
But, then (without having had a teacher) to preach others that their method is the best ... pure foolishness.

So, GW's message is useless cause it doesn't relate to my journey.
And, his posturing only shows more of his concern with being above me .. rather than learning what he can from others.
I will leave it to you to deal with his mental/ego high horse.
I have had enough and feel it is time to move passed him.

I can tell you of insights but they would mean less to you cause you didn't struggle to find them on your own.

So let's not feed a stray dog lest you wanna become its owner.



The struggle for the insights isn't a mental struggle alone that's for sure.. it's physical and mental.

Maybe you should move pass yourself first.

Anyway, you will not get any talk from me any more.

Peace.

I've dealt with it, sir.

For every action there is an equal opposite reaction. Karma.

Yes, of course, no argument.


Do I detect anger???


Promises, promises


No doubt. And, how have it improved your understanding or changed your viewpoint or expanded your learning

Not everyone is out to make you feel bad about yourself by thinking that they are higher than you are. You should be honest about what you know. Otherwise, respond with reasons and insights from your learning experience instead of flogging the dead horse non-stop that people ride the high horse on you. If you carefully examine the reason, you will understand that people get nothing from riding the high horse on you. In fact, some people do not want to be bothered with you. All of your insights cannot let you see through this? You should feel special that there are people who want to educate you on a particular subject. You know why? Normally, when you visit any websites, nobody will bother to lecture you. Most of them will just tell you to read. I wish someone could come to me and start lecturing me with their own understanding instead of telling me to read.

Perhaps you should try to be nice to people when they are being sympathetic towards you.

And Tanga did not deal with my ego. She cannot deal with anyone's ego. She has been dealing with her own. Not to burst anyone's bubbles but only I can deal with my own ego, and likewise only you can deal with your own ego. But normally we can't, so we just gonna to have to learn how to converse in a civil manner with reasoning, which most people cannot do. However, Tanga has demonstrated that she is capable of doing it, more so than in the past.

Step out of your comfort zone a little bit.

Well, I have learnt what is known as 'dry mindfulness' (non-jhanic) which is the Mahayana development, very Zen school that emphasizes this self-remembering, this quality of presence in the here and now, a simultaneous awareness of body and psychological self coupled with simultaneous enhanced awareness of that is going on around you. Certainly there is no special posture involved; you do it in the midst of life.

For GW to practice traditional meditation, where he's sitting still in a quiet place, would be very different perhaps.

Shinzen young had a student who talked about this two different approaches. His finding to date has been that these two methods both seem necessary to complement each other. He's learned to produce a certain kind of mindfulness through self-remembering in the midst of intense activity. It's valuable in a variety of ways. But it's like learning to balance on an actively moving surface, like surfing must be. There's a very high activity level while he's doing it. The kind of self-remembering he does does not generally get him in touch with very subtle mind-body processes, although they may be going on in the background and ultimately affecting his foreground experience.

When he sits down and practice the traditional sort of vipassana meditation, the subtle processes are much more visible because they're not being swamped by the activity/noise of everyday life. At the same time, this awareness at a more subtle level feels like a problem in some ways. A level of thought, for instance, that would not interfere in the hurly-burly of life with a certain high degree of mindfulness now seems like a rampaging storm!

Anyways, that's his version of experience. I have gone through his description of a rampaging storm several times in my vipassana practice. And the key is always equanimity and skillful handling of pain.

If you like to know more on how to handle the pain, I can tell you that what I learnt is the posture is crucial in zazen, but not that crucial in vipassana, however, there is still a baseline in discomfort, and I begin to notice that our sense of suffering around that baseline of discomfort goes through ebbs and flows. Every once in a while you'll have a significant experience. The discomfort will not have changed, but something in your relationship to it changes—-spontaneously.

That's because there are moment-by-moment fluctuations in your level of "grasping" or "resistance". Psychological grasping is our main source of suffering, not the physical sensations in our legs—-that is to say, how much we are tightening psychologically around those sensations is the main source of suffering.

You have said that dealing with the pain and varying levels of discomfort has been a major source of fetter for you. With the traditional sitting in quietitude, I have learnt how to handle from the gross to the subtle. I can see a transformation of my reactivity.

The conversation on this board has substantiated for me the effectiveness of these two methods. I will certainly try out the "dry mindfulness" method during my day-to-day living... but I am of the traditional school. I don't fuss over whether I have attained any jhanic states of mind. I just cultivate my equanimity in the midst of shooting pains and spikes, and be curious of the flavour, quality, shape and size of the subtle sensations and experience their state of anicca.

That's it for today fellas.. gotta hop!

Tanga, I can't tell you anything about your experience because I don't experience what you experience. If anything I say about your experience is merely my speculation. That's not the reason I am here. I am here to discuss Buddhist teachings not particularly focusing on the methods, and whatever we can get out from it that might help with practice. Likewise, you would not understand my experience either...in short, Pure Land method or recitation is very different from any other methods in that it approaches the subtle mind-body processes indirectly. For one to truly understand Pure Land method, one has to devote time and practice. There is no other way around. Everything else that is said about Pure Land without practicing the method is pure speculation. For one to understand this method, one has to have an adequate understanding of Pure Land as Mahayana Buddhism in general, and requires an in-depth investigation.

Hi GW, don't worry. I am not trying to sell you any theravada method. And I trust you when you said you are not converting others to try out the Pureland method but merely sharing your Buddhist learning from your own experience in Pure Land methodology. Our experiences are surely exclusive to one another, but I have an intuition that it can be complementary. You asked for me to speak in conventional language about my meditation experience.

I have tried to share it with AV because I sense he is open to it but you are not, but this is an open forum and although it's against my judgement to share with you, I have to. Kindly refrain from misunderstanding my motive for sharing as being some subversive plot to convert you to trying out theravada blueprint.

I am speaking in conventional language the experiences of others and myself with traditional sitting. I would not speculate on your experience at all even as I am curious of it as you are of mine, however hard you deny.

You have pointed out correctly and this is where I have raised the flag for AV that :

To follow the Noble Eightfold Path is a matter of practice rather than intellectual knowledge, but to apply the path correctly it has to be properly understood. In fact, right understanding of the path is itself a part of the practice. It is a facet of right view, the first path factor, the forerunner and guide for the rest of the path. Thus, though initial enthusiasm might suggest that the task of intellectual comprehension may be shelved as a bothersome distraction, mature consideration reveals it to be quite essential to ultimate success in the practice.

In this respect, our conversation has had some direction ..

I am going to take easy and not going to invest too much energy into this. However, I want to ask a question:

How do you understand Nirvana as compared to Pure Land? It can get metaphysical.

I am not particularly interested in the methodology. I am interested in exchanging Buddhist teachings because coming from a Mahayana background, the teachings are more comprehensive, in-depth, and sometimes even complicated (to some people). I am interested in the teachings because the teachings help with my practice. Buddhist teachings are in-depth and requiring many years and even a lifetime of devotion. Does this mean people have to understand all the teachings before they can practice? No, but enough. The point I am making is Buddhist teachings are heavy and deep, and I am still a learner and new to Buddhist teachings. I still need to learn as I practice.

Regardless of the methods we employ, Wisdom is certain to arise from practice over time. Wisdom is a not a substance, but it's there. It is not intellectual understanding of the teachings either. However, because of it, we will be able to understand the teachings and express it clearly to others. Of course, we have to be able to distinguish between wisdom expressing itself through language and intellectual regurgitation...what important is every day, the mind becomes clearer and become less attached. This is the sign of Wisdom increasing while defilement is decreasing. This is how we can tell that we have improved such that we no longer react to the things that we have reacted to before.

Truthfully, I don't know how to speak in conventional language the state of Nirvana. Is it possible to describe it?

Some Buddhist lineages have vernacular language description for it.

And even today, some western buddhists and even the Dalai Lama are hopeful that they can transcribe it into english and in scientific language. See Shinzen Young's "The Science of Enlightenment" for instance..

I believe that the whole business of spiritual liberation is a cycle where you will need to cultivate the paramis thoughout your lifetime and you will want to go out into the market place and start "Serving" the people, to give back to everyone the seed of Dhamma which you have received and nurtured.

If you are sincere in the study of liberation (nirvana), you will want to serve and share the seed of Dhamma with others.

But do it skillfully, do it with metta. Don't be attached in such a way that it becomes a spiritual status chase for you, where you wanna be respected and admired for your spiritual knowledge and skill.. cuz then you will be no different than those guys selling snake oil and con men performing miracles for the lazy, naive and gullible.

Why are you not honest about you trying to teach me your book learning and your practice?? You have put yourself high and think only your way is the true way.
You have done so and will not listen to a poor disciple of another discipline. So be it.


I have read your words and learned you to be a scholar of Buddhism. And, your knowledge of Buddhism is long and technical.
Congratulations for learning so much.

And, this is why you won't listen to my words??? You want me to be nice to you??? HEhehe ... you are a funny man

You want to play semantics and think you are better ... good for your ego ... you really do think high of yourself.


You share your experiences rather than lecture me on how yours is the only way like GW.
And, when you share, I'm open to sharing my experiences with you.


Unfortunately, the master does much more than teach the way. He manipulates the disciple to follow the path and correctly break through the veil of this illusion of our lives.
Yes, learning the path and following the rules is a part of the process. But, so much more is needed if one can expect to reach the goal within this lifetime.
Otherwise, we just do our best and live as good a life as we can and hope that in the next incarnation that we are in a better place.

I'm sorry. I have no answers. Just full of questions. My understanding is different than your and hoped that you would have led me to better.
GW has recently begun to learn his path and already he is teaching others. How wonderful and advanced he is .... hehehehe

I don't think he is trying to teach but he's grasping at precepts and practices and having self-identity issues, which prevent him from stream entering.