The Luzon Empire (呂宋國)

Written History:
In 1279 AD, in the Naval Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) at the Pearl River Delta (珠江), the final conflict between the Mongol Forces (元) and the Southern Sung Empire (南宋國) was fought. The Mongol forces managed to advance to the center of the Southern Sung fleet and attack the boat of the child emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). Seeing no hope of breaking free, the Minister of the Left (重臣) Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) decided to commit suicide with the boy emperor rather than be captured by the Mongols. He jumped into the sea with the boy emperor and many officials and concubines followed suit. A few days later, the tattered remains of the boy emperor was found floating in Shekou Bay(蛇口). This sealed the fate of the Southern Song Empire.

Purported Oral History:
Before the final sea battle at Yamen (崖門戰役), Minister of the Left Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) disguised his own son to look like the boy emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). When the Mongols finally managed to attack the center of the Southern Sung fleet, Liu Xiufu committed suicide with his own son disguised as the emperor. The finest and most loyal of the Southern Sung fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑). managed to break off from the battle with the real emperor and escape across the sea. There they established the Lesser Song Empire (呂宋國) at its capital Tondo (東都).

Facts:
1. Even though the corpse of the last emperor of the Southern Song Empire was reportedly found, no graveyard was ever erected.
2. Chinese historians agree that the Southern Sung Fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑) did survive the final Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) and that they simply vanished from record.
3. Tondo (東都) was the capital of an empire recorded by the Ming Dynasty (大明國) as the Luzon Empire (呂宋國).
4. Luzon Empire (呂宋國) was conquered by the Spaniards in 1571 and the province of Pampanga was the first colonial province carved out of it. The whole northern island was named Luzon. Tondo (東都) still exist today as a mere suburb of Manila.

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"The Philippines then was made up of many little kingdoms with chieftains who were friendly or hostile to each other, but who recognized each other's independence. Trade and commerce was carried on among themselves and with foreigners. The Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, Siamese, Sumatrans and other neighboring traders had brought to the country their various customs and cultures, without attempting to bring the authority of their kings."


Certain tribes such as Tinggianes and Sambals have even the same hairstyles as the Chinese.

Even as Legaspi conquered the various kingdoms of Luzon, he noticed that there are already hundreds of thousands of Chinese concentrated in the central plains and western coasts of Luzon, either living in the city-states of the natives, OR LIVING IN THEIR OWN CITY-STATES. SO with regard to the last sentence, DO CHINESE have the right to the PHILIPPINES? THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES!

The Philippines belongs not only to the Taiwanese Aboriginal descendants or Malays but ALSO to the Chinese who settled here.

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Ming annals have reported kingdoms in Luzon and called their kings as "wang" / "ong" (in Hokkien). If not for their Chinese connection, they would be called and treated as "barbarian rulers".

The following selection talks about internal politics (and way of life including crimes) in Luzon and the large numbers and way of life of the Hokkien in Luzon. It also attests the closeness of Luzon to Zhangzhou (Fujian province).

The Ming Annals about Luzon in Chinese:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080618154044/...ztyz/ms323.html

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"Duck culture was also practiced by the natives, particularly those around Pateros and Taguig City. This resembled the Chinese methods of artificial incubation of eggs and the knowledge of every phase of a duck's life. This tradition is carried on until modern times."

"Some of them used compass similar to those used among maritime communities of Borneo and traders of China, although most had no need for such devices."

Even agricultural and farming methods in the Philippines were reportedly brought over from Mainland China, according to Prof. Arsenio Manuel and many archaeologists.

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The Haplotype O3 in many Filipinos (especially in Luzon) also attests to a migration from Mainland China.

The premier ruler of Luzon come from a long line of rulers (mixed Bruneian-Chinese) who settled in what is now Pampanga. They thus share bloodlinks with the present Brunei royalty, as well as with the royalties of Tang Dynasty and Song Dynasty of China. If you take a look at it, ALL the world's royalties are interrelated to one another, and this includes the original Chinese ruler of Luzon who intermarried with a Bruneian sultan and eventually gave rise to the Luzon Empire/Kingdom.

Kapampangans have oral traditions about the existence of a large "empire" that traded with other nations. Yes, this is the Lesser Song Dynasty of China, eventually localized into the Liu-sung-kuo, or Luzon Empire.

Manila north of Pasig River was still Kapampangan during the 1500s. Only around 1600s did the Tagalogs capitulated the Kapampangans and occupied Manila, Bulacan, Bataan, and Nueva Ecija. Otherwise, all these are Kapampangan territory. Kapampangans are largely descendants of AMI PEOPLE FROM TAIWAN, not Malay immigrants. On the other hand, Tagalogs and Visayans are partly Malays. Tagalogs were considered to be a Visayan people before (and up to now, pure linguists consider Tagalog to be a Visayan language). Tagalog region during the 1500s only consisted of Batangas up to the Pasig River in Manila, and a few plains in Laguna. Large swathes of Rizal and Quezon then were still largely Negrito/Proto-Ainuid/Australoid.

There were many city-states (city-kingdoms) in Luzon then. The city-states were not only made by natives - in fact, there were A LOT OF CITY-STATES FOUNDED BY JAPANESE, SIAMESE, and CHINESE MIGRANTS!

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So as you can see, the forced imposition of Malay ideals and supposed Malay connection to Luzon is stupid. Luzon is mostly Taiwanese Aboriginal with Chinese and of course, the usual Australoid suspects again. And the haplotypes attests to this.

The reason Luzon natives don't look Chinese for obvious reasons is that Luzonians, like other Filipino peoples, have heavy Australoid admixtures (6-35%, depending on the source), but still, that does not justify the willful erasure of the Chinese origins of the Luzon empire or the Chinese connection of Luzon's peoples.

how is it that you have time to write this, but dont have time to

a) answer the chinese posters who write to you in chinese

b) explain what "yo habla espanol" means

c) explain why your chinese school has a lot of spanish mestizos

d) explain how you have delicate and soft eurasian features, yet your "chinese relatives are pango."

e) explain why you continue to pretend you are chinese, when you blatantly stated 3 years ago, "No, I'm not Chinoy."

a) LOL. I did. I even answered one as soon as he posted it.
b) Like I said, it was a typographical error.
c) I did not say that it has LOTS of Spanish Mestizos. I said it has SOME.
d) Well well, a pure pango Pinoy can surely have a Mestizo Eurasian cousin, isn't that right? LOL
e) Chinoy has several meanings. You keep on posting that phrase and yet you never posted the next sentence: "I'm not Chinoy, but I am of Chinese ancestry". By that I referred to Chinoy as 1/2 Chinese and 1/2 Pinoy.

So my question to you is: Why, PinkCream, do you keep harassing users here? I already answered YOUR stupid questions. Sooner or later, if you won't stop your harassment, you're gonna get banned, including your IP.

And don't derail the discussion. I won't mind if you didn't reply to my questions above.

a) thats odd, from what im reading, most chinese posters conclude that you are not chinese due to basic amateur mistakes, which all point to a 100% google translated sentence

b) No - you said it was actually correct - only to flip flop to your current stance that it was typographical - besides how can it be a typo if a is nowhere next to o on the keyboard?

c) You can't flip flop your story and say "a lot" means "some" - first of all you refuse to address the fact that your chinese school has spanish mestizos at all, which in itself is highly suspect. Second, this is a complete 180 from what you said before. You used to go on about how your school was all chinese with some tagalog - then you added in koreans to try avoid getting caught, then even worse, you added in spanish mestizos lmao..

d) technically correct - although your sentence implies that you [supposedly 87.5% chinese] have 100% pango chinese relatives..I repeat: "My chinese relatives are pango."

e) lmao - you cant all of a sudden change the benchmarks. What your sentence implies is that you do not have enough chinese blood to consider yourself chinese, but you do after all have some chinese blood. Which may or may not be true - the fact is that even if you do, it is not enough for you to truly consider yourself chinese. Besides, what chinese blood you do have, you admitted that your chinese relatives are pango!! [YOU said it, not me ]




There is a plethora of statements made by you in the past which completely contradicts everything you are saying today. Mind you, this is only the tip of the iceberg, as this was only 5 of about 10 or 12 contradictions you made....the most interesting of which is how you went from illiterate to fluent to advanced spanish all in the space of one week !

a) Oh really? The fact is that they said I made ONLY ONE mistake. And you see, that ONE mistake is due to the fact that Mandarin and Hokkien initially didn't share the same writing system. As ONE Hokkien in that thread later confirmed, the article "chhi-ge" is really USED in Hokkienese language. Even Cantonese and Mandarin writing systems don't always match. I can give you a lot of examples but it simply isn't worth the time...

b) I already said what is needed to be said. If you don't accept it, then don't. JUST DON'T DERAIL THIS THREAD, OK?

c) What all Chinese? It IS a Chinese school alright. But that doesn't preclude Tagalogs, Koreans, and those with Spanish ancestry from entering the school. Of course all Chinese schools somehow would have SOME students of Spanish ancestry - after all, this is the Philippines, a former Spanish colony. And besides, the Spanish Mestizos I am talking about are mostly Chinese-Spanish, NOT Filipino-Spanish.

d) I said that of the pango relatives I have are those who are Chinese. This is vastly different from saying that ALL my Chinese relatives are pango.

e) Like I said, not Chinoy means 1/2 Chinese-1/2 Filipino. You see, all old members here know that I am Chinese since the outset. If you're not convinced, then don't believe me. LOL

f) What Spanish-illiterate? Like I said before, I can read Spanish books, and in fact, I do read Spanish books.


And even if I deliberately chose to lie about my identity (which isn't the case anyway), WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?!?! Are you my KEEPER?

And honestly, I don't see why a Filipino would like to claim to be PURE Chinese. Only the ones who are Chinese would claim to be so.

This is my last reply to you, considering you're here to DERAIL THIS TOPIC.

If you hate the Chinese (which you do, considering your White heritage), you better get out of the Philippines because like it or not, the Philippines, whatever it is now, is partly based on its Chinese heritage. LOL. Just LOL.

a) No they didnt - they said your ENTIRE SENTENCE was one giant mistake lol. And despite your self-proclaimed 90% chinese heritage, you still avoid chinese chat like the plague and have not gone there after over 1 year and attempted to correct it. Your sentence was google translated, just like your spanish sentece, and you were foudn out.

b) Im confused here... I first asked what that meant, and your reply was along the lines of

"Yo habla espanol is correct"

and today's response

"It was a typo"

which is amusing because a and o, are nowhere near each other on the keyboard so it sure as hell wasnt a typo.



c)Well here you are flip flopping again. So now its spanish-chinese mestizos...ok - but that doesnt explain all those anglo-american nordic looking mestizos you were talking about in one of your other posts.

d) Hence, you have pango chinese relatives - perhaps you ought to thank your 1% filipino genes for your delicate soft eurasian features lmao


e) your story is obvious bull$hit, it was an admission that you werent chinese enonugh to be considerd chinoy, but still had a smal amount of chinese blood...


ill just play along though - if you did not consider yourself chinoy back then, then what did you consider yourself?



f) You lie again - you went from

"I used to speak fluent Spanish when I was a kid but by now, I only know English, Tagalog, and Hokkien. "

to

"Anyways, I do speak fluent Hokkien, Spanish, and can get by with Mandarin."

to

"Why would I use a translator when I know advanced Spanish (not fluent, but at least advanced)????"

all in the space of one week

hence why i asked: how did you go from illeterate to fluent to "just advanced"

lmao


and this literally is only the tip of the iceberg

I think this theory was originally conceptualized by Mike Pangilinan together with his Fil-Chinese friends.

What is proven however is Ong Sum Bing/Ping or Huang Sen Ping, probably a Ming prince or an official, was given a title of Pengiran Maharaja Lela by a Bruneian Sultan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_Senping

Nakhoda/Nakoda Ragam or the Bruneian Sultan Bolkeiah or known locally as Gat Lontok together with his uncle, Ong Sum Ping, invaded the Luzon kingdom in order to monopolize the China trade. Some historians even confounded this Srilela as the first ruler of Manila, another Srilela regarded as Raja Soliman I, which was actually the son of Nakhoda Ragam with the princess daughter of the vanquished Majapahit ruler of Luzon. Another Majapahit prince, Prince Balagtas, the son of Angka Wijaya with Princess Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa(Kingdom of Luzon), married the daughter of Sultan Bolkeiah.

The Bruneian rulers were indeed of mixed ancestry with Arabic, Indian and Chinese admixture on indigenous Malay/Bisayan root ancestry as symbolized on their royal ceremonies.

The amount of Chinese annals regarding Luzon can't be discounted. Likewise, the large amount of Filipinos especially in Luzon bearing the Haplotype O3 can't be discounted as well. There's bound to be at least some Chinese influence or Chinese descendants among Filipinos today who are descendants of precolonial migrants to Luzon.

I think it's not farfetched to say that Luzon Kingdom was in fact established by Chinese nobility from the Song Dynasty, built on a pre-existing political structure built by Bruneian royalty, centered in what is now Pampanga province.

But.. there's no proof as of now that Majapahit did control Luzon (at the most, it did controlled only Sulu). Likewise, there is this confounding information on whether the Bisayas of Borneo are similar and one as the Bisayas of the Philippines and whether they really derived their name from the Srivijayan empire.

Anyhow, with the above data you're presenting, it seems like the datus, rajahs, and sultans were really NOT locals, but Bruneian or foreigners.

Well, yeah, the Indonesians too have a lot of O3. But these O3 are much older phylogenetically or molecularly speaking than the relatively recent subclades from the Chinese pointing the Southern Origin of O3 for both Chinese and Indonesians including Filipinos. The same is the case for O1 and O2.

The Majapahit Nagakertagama document mentioned Soloot(Sulu) and Saludong, ancient name by the ancient Indonesians for Luzon similar to the way the Bruenians called Luzon or Lusung as Selurung.
Link> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarakertagama

Nick Joaquin, Isabelo delos Reyes, Austin Craig and Otley Beyer talked about the Majapahit rulers of Manila as attested by the Will of Pansonum written circa 17th century. That Majapahit ruler Angka Wijaya married Dayang Sasaban of the Kingdom of Sapa and begotten Prince Balagtas who married a daughter of Sultan Bolkeiah of Brunei, from his wife, a daughter from the vanquished Lord of Luzon.

I remember Nick Joaquin writing in the PDI claiming that the Kapampangans came from Southern China as the latter are lighter skinned compared with the other natives. He must probably mixed it up the Bellwood's theory.

The ancient royals had a penchant of marrying other ancient royals for trade and political alliances and thus born the Srivijayan and Majapahit networks with Old Malay as lingua franca. And thus the companion of Magellan from Malacca could converse with the native rulers of Central Visayas and understood one another. In Malacca at those time btw, there were lots of Luzonian traders and officials in fact the custom commisioner and police chief, which was second only to the Sultan of Malacca in rank was from Luzon and had a rich relative also from Luzon who traded pepper to China. The rich trader from Luzon also rented his ships and mariners to the Portuguese explorers to teach the Portuguese the trade routes to China and Japan as documented by Tome Pires.

As mentioned, those foreign nobilities had married into the native nobilities to continue the bloodlines for their native subjects. The native subjects considered the offsprings of foreign rulers marrying with their native rulers as their own so much so that they think they too were from Borneo or from Sumatra. Like the Bisayans claiming they are from Borneo or Kapampangans coming from both Borneo and Sumatra. Must be the result of centuries of western colonization. Looking for outside for their lost roots and identity.

The Laguna Copperplate inscription circa 10th century AD, showed the Ruler of Tondo acting as judge and commander in chief to his allies as far as Butuan(Diwata) and Medang in Sumatra/Java. And the language used is not Chinese but a mixture of Old Malay, Old Kapampangan and Old Tagalog written in Kavi script with use of Sanskrit titles and time reckoning terminologies. At that time Srivijayan was at its peak. Isn't that Srivijayan networking at work?

There was even the claim that Srivijayan capital was in Luzon and not in Palembang(Palinfong in Chinese writings) in Sumatra. It was actually the westerner Coedes who coined the term Srivijayan empire for what the Chinese called Shilifoshi or Sanfotsi or Sanfoqi or what the Arabs called Zabag or Zabag(Saba)[Kingdom of Sapa? or Rizal's Tawalisi] and Coedes speculated Srivijayan empire aka Zabag or Sanfotsi as centered in Palembang because of the Bukit inscription found near Palembang mentioned the word Vijaya meaning glorious. Zabag or Sanfotsi was a world of marvels to various adventurers as the Gold Isles with a maharaja who ruled among rajas, an entrepot, an epitome of wealth. And so the Portuguese at the turn of Western discovery of East Indies saw the Luzonians as more eminent and wealthy than the Chins(Chinese). According to Al Biruni, the residence of the Majaraja of Zabaj or Zabag was just east of Champa kingdom and not south where Palembang is, the supposed capital of the Srivijayan empire. Luzon is exactly east of Champa now Vietnam.
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/sanfotsizabag.htm

"The Laguna Copperplate inscription circa 10th century AD, showed the Ruler of Tondo acting as judge and commander in chief to his allies as far as Butuan(Diwata) and Medang in Sumatra/Java. And the language used is not Chinese but a mixture of Old Malay, Old Kapampangan and Old Tagalog written in Kavi script with use of Sanskrit titles and time reckoning terminologies. At that time Srivijayan was at its peak. Isn't that Srivijayan networking at work?"

"And so the Portuguese at the turn of Western discovery of East Indies saw the Luzonians as more eminent and wealthy than the Chins(Chinese). According to Al Biruni, the residence of the Majaraja of Zabaj or Zabag was just east of Champa kingdom and not south where Palembang is, the supposed capital of the Srivijayan empire. Luzon is exactly east of Champa now Vietnam."

Good points. Usually when I bring it up elsewhere, people seem to hint that we're merely a subject or conquered city-state.

Nothing against China at all. But I don't like it when people, even our own perpetuate ideas that certain groups are destined to be our leaders.

You have to take everything ocrap says with a grain of salt especially when he claims

to have gone from illiterate to fluent to advanced spanish in the space of one week [however, his attempts suggest he is in fact illiterate --> see point 4]

was not chinoy 3 years ago, but is today a proud 90% chinese man who basically just lives in the philippines, but is otherwise chinese.

went to chinese school for 10 [12?] years, yet is incapable of constructing even a simple chinese sentence - on the other hand, his tagalog is excellent

vehemently claimed "yo habla espanol" is correct, only to do a complete 180 and now brush it off as a mere typo.



oh and i forgot to mention: claimed to blend in PERFECTLY in hong kong - yet he supposedly has soft and delicate eurasian features. I'm not certain whether we can believe either one, however he did admit to having pango chinese relatives so maybe that fits in somewhere in the equation.

I know these aren't directed at me and this isn't even the kind of topic I normally post on since I really don't care that much about ancient history, I'm more of a today and the future kind of poster, but I felt the need to comment on some things.


I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...


It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Well, don't forget that Indonesians are also partly Daics. Some Daics also have O3, and that's where Indonesians probably got their O3. But see, Indonesians have much lesser O3 than do Filipinos. And in fact, I think it's safe to deduce that those with O3 are the ones in Indonesia with the lighter skin, while those who have darker skin (and look kinda Veddoid) are O2 or O1.

Likewise, the Ming Annals and other Hokkien commercial documents refer to Luzon as "liu-sung", considering it as part of the "liu-chiu" (Ryukyu) group of islands. Considering both Chinese and Indonesian, I think the word "liu-sung" has a meaning in Chinese. I guess it's just a place name in Indonesian. And in Chinese, it allegedly means :"backbone of the Song", being bastion for the overthrown Song rulers of China.



Majapahit rulers? More like Majapahit envoys. The ONLY direct connection that the Filipinos have to the "other Malays" is through Borneans, specifically Bruneians. Never to Majapahit rulers from Java. And anyway, the endpoint is this: that Luzon's rulers were still foreign.

Well, it's true. Kapampangans are the direct descendants of Taiwanese aboriginals from Taiwan and are not mixed with Daic (through Indonesian) blood. That's why the Northern Filipino peoples' languages such as Ilocano, Cordillera languages, Kapampangan, Gaddang, Ibaloi, and Ivatan are VERY MUCH SIMILAR to Formosan languages, whereas all the Central and Southern Filipino languages are grouped together and are similar to Bornean languages.



Yeah, Luzon people had a colony in Melaka. But Tome Pires, in his accounts, as well said that the Luzon (Lucoes) people had NO king but were governed by a group of elders. Perhaps he was referring to some islands near Luzon, or to some barangays in Luzon which were relatively independent of the Luzon Kingdom (Liu-sung-kuo).

Old Malay was understood throughout the "Malay" Archipelago because it was the primary language of the colonizers who styled themselves as rulers of the Philippine locals. The "native" royalty intermarried with the royalty of Brunei because firstand foremost, these "native rulers" were in fact migrants from Brunei. Seeing that the Filipino peoples were not united, chose to capitulate them and make them subordinates.

Ergo, Philippines has no MALAY roots at all. But it has Formosan and Bornean roots.



Brunei is also "east" of the Champa kingdom.

I don't see why the Laguna Copperplate Inscription must be held in high esteem. It just talks about the AFFAIRS of foreign Bruneian rulers. Since it was a ROYAL document, it is therefore logical that it would use Old Malay and Kawi script with Sanskrit terminologies. Most likely, these Bruneian rulers are descended from Indianized rulers as well, so they just brought the Indian influence to their new colonies in the Philippines.

In fact, there are three other artifacts with undecipherable inscriptions: the Butuan silver strip (14th century), the Butuan ivory seal (10th century), and the Calatagan jar (15th century).

So if one argues for the "MALAYAN/SRIVIJAYAN" colonization of the Philippines using the Laguna Copperplate Inscription, I might as well use the hundreds of Chinese artifacts and coins also dating back 10th century that are found throughout Philippine seas, especially in Luzon. Their numerical superiority versus Indo-Malayan artifacts of Hindu/Buddhist design shows that the Chinese did settle in Luzon, a fact now being acknowledged by many historians.

Majapahit and Srivijayan COLONIZATION, if ever it did happen (which I doubt, anyway), did not leave significant traces that could document their supposed occupancy/colonization of the Philippines. Most Hindu and Buddhist artifacts found in the Philippines are singular, meaning, they were acquired most likely through trade rather than settlement of Indianized Malays.

If one argues that the Philippines is a Malay country, given the facts above, then I might as well argue that the Philippines is a Chinese country. Obviously, NEITHER ONE IS CORRECT, since the Philippines is basically a country populated by Taiwanese Aboriginal descendants later ruled by Bruneian-Chinese hybrid rulers (not Javanese or Sumatran Srivijayans/Majapahits). Also, we can deduce that before the coming of the Bruneian-Chinese rulers, the locals had no singular authority - rather, they were governed by a group of elder people, which is compatible with Austronesian culture anyway.

Yup. Pure Ethnic Chinese born in the Philippines are no less Filipino than the Taiwanese Aboriginal Filipinos (i.e., the natives/locals).

Chinese-Filipinos are BOTH and EQUALLY Chinese and Filipino. The problem is that some other users can't see that as a fact.

LOL. About the school... tell that to pommop/moppom above. He INSISTS that all CHINESE-FILIPINOS should speak fluent Mandarin and use Chinese characters flawlessly. However, as you and I know, this isn't the case in the Philippines where the Chinese are somehow assimilated to the dominant culture.

However, as a PURE Chinese person, I think you should learn somehow to speak your OWN language - if not Mandarin, at least some Hokkien (otherwise called here in the Philippines by Chinese as "lan-lang-oe" - our people's language). Not to mention that it brings more business contacts - most Singaporean Chinese and Taiwanese people speak Hokkien. Just my two cents though.

About the chhut-si-ia (who are mostly pai-hua anyway), they can deny their Chineseness for all they want. Anyway, they aren't Chinese anymore.



Yeah, but you gotta admit that the quote above hits anti-Chinese sentiments/comments. Look left and right online, there are a lot of locals who are vehemently anti-Chinese (and pro-America/West). Sometimes, you need to hit below the belt so they'll see, know, realize, and recognize who is the true hero/contributor and who is not.

The second paragraph is so true. Chinese-Filipinos are Filipinos and have EVERY RIGHT to the country just as the so-called "locals" do.

And just as you posted your reply in this thread, another Chinese-Filipino compatriot has been brutally killed by criminals the other day, with the police force, staffed by the locals, turning a blind side again. According to writer Amy Chua, the policemen are also envious of the economic success of the Chinese that they actually support/condone the killings by simply doing nothing about it.

Of course, let's not pretend to be blind and deny the thousands of Chinese kidnap for ransom victims.
Given that the Chinese-Filipinos have every right to the Philippines, if the Philippine government doesn't look at the plight of the Chi-Fils and do nothing about the rampant crimes targeting Chi-Fils, WE HAVE EVERY right to declare our own GOVERNMENT that will give us the protection and the RECOGNITION that we DESERVE and that we should ENJOY. Now, isn't that right? And I know that is a flaming conclusion, but again, it's reality. You can't keep on pretending like there's nothing wrong with the rampant thievery, kidnap-for-ransom, kidnap-slaying, and murder of scores of Chinese-Filipinos. These in fact have led to an upsurge of Chinese pride among the Chinese-Filipino youths of today, most of whom have visions of themselves living abroad.

Stupid comments made by some locals include blaming the melamine, drug smuggling, and other issues on Chinese-Filipinos. LOL. Most can't and don't recognize the difference between the local Chinese and mainland Chinese and even Koreans.

lmao except you said that you did learn fluent chinese in school.

And besides, the most damning evidence of all is that you yourself said 3 years ago, "No I'm not Chinoy."

Just a question; if you really did go to chinese school, perhaps you could help us out with ocrap's odd situation

were there a lot of

filipinos

koreans

spanish mestizos [chinese spanish mestizos that is]

nordic looking anglo-americans?


ocraps chinese school apparently contained a healthy mix of the above in addition to the ethnic pure chinese.

Depends on the school from my experience, generally Chinese schools here just mean they have a chinese class and practice things like Chinese new year and traditions, there are some smaller schools that emphasize more on Chinese I would assume the students there all speak Chinese probably more recent immigrants, not a lot of Filipinos speak Chinese so as you might expect those schools cater to a minority.

I studied in a bigger more recognized school and all general subjects were taught in english, Filipino and Philippine history were taught in tagalog and only one Chinese class. A lot of wealthy fil-chi tend to donate to these bigger schools so its heavily influenced by the fil-chi community. Students were mostly Filipino and Tsinoy, I personally find it hard to distinguish mestizos by appearance unless I know them by name, there were almost no Americans, some others like me pure ethnic Chinese but most of us didn't speak a lot of Chinese those few that did spoke Hokkien, Chinese (Mandarin) was the most annoying subject they pretty much just made us memorize words and sentences didn't learn much from that, I heard they revamped the teaching method after I left, pity would've been useful to learn mandarin.

My grandfather only spoke Hokkien no english or tagalog. My parents can speak Hokkien but having also been born and raised here they have difficulty reading and writing it. They didn't bother much to teach me and I regret not trying to learn earlier on.

That seriously doesn't even make any sense... I have never had a person see things more my way by busting their balls. If anything they get more defensive, and I wouldn't characterize us Fil-Chinese in general as heroes anyway its just that we run a lot of businesses so we contribute a lot towards productivity and job creation, but we don't get into that out of philanthropy like anyone else we're motivated by capitalism.

Regarding racial crimes that problem does exist to an extent but I don't see how you help the issue by going about the superiority of Chinese history if anything it just enforces the belief that we're different and that the Chinese think they're better than Filipinos, which leads to further racial hatred. You're stirring up a hornets nest.


Actually that sounds crazy but giving you the benefit of the doubt, could you please clarify exactly what you mean, are you saying that we should have our own Chinese government in the Philippines just for Chinese? Maybe I just misunderstood you.

Out of curiosity where do you live now?

LOL.

I said that there were a lot of Koreans and some Spanish Mestizos and Filipinos. What Anglo-Americans?!?!?!

Well, the Chinese schools I know have at least three subjects: Hua-gi ("Chinese Language/Grammar"), Tiong-hap ("Chinese Communication"), and Suan-sut (Mathematics taught in a Chinese way). Some of the Christian Chinese schools have foreign students like one or two Americans or even Nigerians, but most are still Chinese, with some Filipino and now, Korean.

LOL. Pommop/moppom insists that ALL Chinese educated in Chinese schools CAN READ AND WRITE in fluent Chinese characters. Hahaha. Good thing you confirmed that Chinese-Filipinos can talk fluently in Hokkien, but do poorly in written Chinese. He doesn't wanna listen.

Most Chinese schools attempt to revamp the curriculum but almost all graduate without being able to speak fluent and read/write in Mandarin and Chinese characters, because rote memory is still the norm in teaching Chinese. On the other hand, for clans/families who speak Hokkien in a daily basis like mine, most family members are fluent in conversation but certainly not in reading and writing.




Maybe, but if that's the only way there is to raise their awareness, then so be it.

Not just Chinese-Filipinos, but even Mainland China. The "heroism" of China despite giving and lending billions of dollars to the Philippines and extending help in calamities has been consistently downplayed in favor of America. This is wrong. Most of modern Philippines has been built from Chinese-Filipino capital and money. There should be at least some recognition of that.



Yep, that's it.

Like Singaporean Chinese, Philippine Chinese do NOT want to separate from their host country.

But look at Singapore, the Malaysian government did not do anything to protect the Chinese community from the rampant race riots then and in fact went on a word-war with Chinese ministers. The result is an independent Singapore that does much better than Malaysia.

If the Philippines government fails in its responsibility to protect the lives and assets of the Philippine Chinese, WE MIGHT AS WELL START our own country and government. I'm sure it'll do much better than the rest of the Philippines, JUST LIKE SINGAPORE, because it has the capital and the necessary education and workforce. Just like Singapore, a large chunk of upper middle classes will move to that Chinese state in the Philippines.

As of now, that's still a hypothetical situation, but as the number of Chinese victims in the Philippines rises, that situation is not too farfetched. Almost everyday there's always Chinese-Filipinos getting robbed, mugged, harassed, or dissed in an online forum or radio/TV commentaries.

Maybe in the new generation, we can find some champions of Chinese-Filipino rights and if the hate crimes are not solved by the Philippine government, we can even have champions of Chinese-Filipino sovereignty.

The culture differences of the current Chinese-Filipinos with the rest of the Filipinos as well as the rest of the Chinese are already wide enough. We constitute our own nationality/ethnicity, with about 60% of the "pure Chinese" in the Philippines having at least one Spanish or Filipino great grandfather and practice mixed Chinese/Filipino/Hispano-American culture and traditions.

So... we should incite racial hatred to raise the awareness of racial hatred?... Wow.
While I have no doubt that would work, it doesn't sound like the smartest of plans.


Everyone gives help for calamities even we do when China or Japan gets hit (not as much of course), someone gets hit we all give a little to help them that way we can rest assured that when we get hit we'll get help too, I think its a U.N. thing sort of like a global socialist policy.

When did they give us billions of dollars? I missed that bit of news do you have a link?

I do think we should shift away from America in favor of China for our economic development, but you seem to be overstating China's "heroism". They're businessmen they give us opportunities but they also seek their own profit. There are no heroes and philanthropists only good trading partners.

Every country works with its own interest at heart. Neither America nor China would ever go out of its way to save the Philippines. I'm not about to trade American heroism propaganda for Chinese heroism propaganda. There's much to gain from dealing with China but if you walk into a trade deal with China with laid back attitude and naively expecting their saintly generosity they'll squeeze as much money from the deal as they can and you'll end up with the least to show for it.


Well sorry but I'd have to say that's crazy, we don't have the right to set up our own government on Philippine soil and take some land call it our own specifically just for us. That's the same thing Taiwan did and what Mindanao rebels currently want. I apply the same standards across the board, Mindanao rebels have no right to set up their own country Mindanao is a part of the Philippines, Taiwan didn't have the right to break away from China and then claim Chinese soil as their own if they left to some uninhabited island then fine, we Fil-Chinese also can't do the same thing. If you don't like the way a country is being run seek to reform it, if it won't change and you really don't like it then every person is free to leave and find a different country that suits them you can't just rebel and steal land. Unless you really are trying to be a rebel like the Abu Sayaff.

There are racial targeted crimes here but you appear to be exaggerating quite a bit, most of the victims of muggings, political and street shootings are Filipino. Kidnappings do seem to aim for Chinese for the obvious reason that a lot of business owners are Chinese, and the government fails at protecting pretty much everyone except the corrupt elite.

Also the Fil-Chinese community is tightly knit around here so arguably we're even more protected than the common Filipinos because of our combined influence.

You complain about us not being recognized as true Filipinos yet you propose that we actually segregate ourselves. Do you not see the irony?

Some extreme Filipinos may resent us out of envy but others have difficulty accepting us as true Filipinos because a lot of Chinese still consider themselves loyal to China, so they wonder if we're really one of them or actually aligned with China. Most of the things you post around these forums seem to enforce the idea that we Fil-Chinese favor China, which will only make accepting us more difficult.

I love China the home of my ancestral and cultural heritage but as a Filipino citizen I prioritize Philippine interests first and not China's. You shouldn't have divided loyalties unless you're a dual citizen and last I checked China doesn't allow dual citizenship.

So out of curiosity what is your nationality?

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...22358&st=80

jst some quotes from post 81 by ocrapdm







was this exclusive school a chinese school ? :O you did say you went to chinese school your whole life.....hmmm....





yup ocraps "chinese school" did contain a lot of nordic looking brits according to this post.

Not really raising the level of racial hatred, but of racial awareness. Or rather, the awareness that some races have done things that benefited the Philippines (e.g. Chinese coming to the Philippines resulting to developmet of skyscrapers, malls, service sectors, et cetera), while others did stuff that harmed the Philippines (e.g., genocide of the Filipino people by the Americans during 1899).



Billions of dollars, if added altogether. Not to mention the Northrail and a lot of infrastructure projects that the Chinese from Mainland are doing. Mind you, the Americans haven't even left a FUNCTIONAL CAPITAL when they left the Philippines on 1946! If there's someone who is responsible to pull the Philippines back to its former glory through rebuilding of destroyed and damaged infrastructure, it would be the Americans. After all, the Philippines wouldn't be destroyed if we're not an American colony during the WWII.

True, neither America nor China would go out its way to save the Philippines just for the sake of it. But comparing the two, China is definitely the lesser of two evils. After all, there was NO history that the Chinese committed genocide against Filipinos (on the other hand, the Americans killed 1/3 of all Filipinos during the Fil-Am war of 1898-1902) or that Chinese colonized the Philippines (which is what the US did). Likewise, there's no cultural imperialism (Filipinos of today play basketball, speak English, and practice American traditions).



Oh, but we do!! Remember, like I said, Chinese have every right to the Philippines? If you agree with that, then you'll surely agree as well that the Chinese, having roots in this country since the prehistoric times, can declare independence IF THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT DOES NOT DO ANYTHING TO PROTECT ITS CITIZENS who happen to have a different ancestry. And besides, most of modern Philippines is the product of Chinese capital and trade anyway. From the late 1700s onward, the only thing that keeps the Philippine economy alive would be the money coming from the Chinese-Filipinos.

And you might as well say that Singaporean Chinese don't have the right to set up their own government in what was formerly Pulau Singapura of Malaysia!! They seceded because they were forced to do so because they feel that they aren't protected. Later, Tunku Abdul Rahman, in a face saving gesture, "forced" Singapore to be independent. But in the outset, he already knows that S'Pore's gonna declare independence soon. He just hastened the process to save face.

It's not stealing land. It's just taking a bit or a parcel of what is ours through history (Chinese were present since the 9th century AD), bloodlines (60% of pure Chinese have minimal amount of Filipino and/or Spanish blood), and wealth (Chinese capital propped up Philippine economy until now).

Obviously, I belong to the "60% of pure Chinese with minimal Filipino AND Spanish blood. And that's the reason I am more vocal, because aside from my rights to the Philippines being a Chinese, I also have my rights to the Philippines since I have 1/8 Filipino and Spanish blood.

Actually, Mindanao people have the right to declare independence BECAUSE THEY AREN'T REPRESENTED WELL IN THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. THERE SHOULD BE AT LEAST ONE SEAT IN THE PHILIPPINE SENATE FOR THE MUSLIMS, AND ANOTHER ONE FOR THE CHINESE. After all, the Muslims and the Chinese are the TWO LARGEST minorities in the Philippines.




Maybe, but then, even Amy Chua noticed that there seems to be a double standard when handling crimes involving Chinese as victims.

Look at the botched Hostage Taking Crisis in Luneta. If the tourists were Americans, the government would've acted quickly. But seeing that they are Chinese (basta not Whites), they just dismissed the incident.

And yeah, precisely, most of the business owners are Chinese. And so the government must be extra keen to protect the Chinese community from such victimization and culture of impunity. After all, the Chinese capital is the lifeblood of the Philippine economy.



Yep, especially for the Christian (Protestant) Chinese community in Metro Manila , which is extremely tightly-knit and most people know each other.

For the most part though, certain communities are more attached to each other. Chinese-Fils from Quezon City for example, get well with Chinese-Fils from Caloocan and San Juan. On the other hand, the Chinese-Fil community in Makati and Alabang keep to themselves and many of them are partially Spanish or American (e.g., Ongpin, Uytengsu, Cojuangco).



If the Philippine government does its best to protect its citizens of Chinese ancestry and promotes equal representation of the Chinese in the Philippine parliament, THEN, THERE IS NO NEED TO SEGREGATE OURSELVES or to even go as far as to create our "own" country.



I don't see anything wrong with being loyal to China. We see an upsurge of interest in Chinese culture and heritage (and increase in Chinese pride) among young Chinese-Filipinos nowadays, partially because of China's rising, and also partially, because of the perception of the Chinese as being "faux Filipinos".
It's GOOD AND NICE to be loyal to BOTH CHINA and the PHILIPPINES. China, after all, is our ancestral home, while the Philippines, is our current home. Both should be equal.


Ummm, actually, ALL OVERSEAS CHINESE are DE FACTO CHINESE CITIZENS. Chinese citizens of Republic of China (Taiwan), that is.

In case you don't know, YOU (as well as any other Chinese-Filipino) have the right to carry a Republic of China (Taiwan) passport and to run as a member of the R.O.C. (Taiwan) parliament, which has allocated 8 seats for Overseas Chinese. Many of my relatives carry R.O.C. passports for convenience, because they grant visas a lot more quickly compared when using a Philippine passport. LOL. I myself plan to use an R.O.C. passport also to be avoid the hassles of using a Philippine passport.

Anyway, so IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, we're EVEN MORE REPRESENTED in the Chinese parliament than in the Philippine parliament, which has no allocated SENATE or CONGRESS seats specifically for minorities including the Chinese.

Well well, I am talking here about my Tertiary Education. Most Chinese go to mainstream Philippine colleges.

Whole life = childhood. LOL. Are you into semantics now, huh?

Gosh I just feel sorry for you. You must be extremely bored with your life so as to try tracing all my posts. Are you totally so in to me? Hahahaha. LOL

really, so in university you made posts such as




let me get this straight

4 years ago you considered yourself a filipino
3 years ago, "not chinoy"

and now all of a sudden, you're chinese due to supposedly going to a chinese school full of spanish mestizos...



by the way, the other 10+ contradictions remain unanswered

such as when you said yo habla espanol was correct, and are NOW claiming it was a typo. LOL!

p.s


since when were nordic looking anglo americans prevalent in filipino universities?



i call more BS and flip flopping

LOL. There are a lot of Americans in the Ateneo and La Salle. Even Britons, Swedes, Serbians, Dutch, and Polish! LOL. Obviously your comments show that you don't know a whit about the Philippines. Because you're Australian.

Um, what's wrong in using "we" when referring to Filipinos. In many such instances, I use the word "we". After all, I consider myself to be Filipino as well, as can be read clearly above.

But then, you gotta admit, I know much about Chinese-Filipino culture, language, and workings that it's quite impossible for me to be not Chinese.

Filipino citizens have a right to the Philippines that includes Fil-Chinese yes, but the Abu Sayaff are also Philippine citizens they don't get to keep Mindanao and break away, because no citizen has a right to break laws.

Regarding Singapore yes technically they didn't have that right, if they forced independence that's effectively a revolution like America declaring independence from Britain. They didn't have the rights they wanted so they fought the system and won, it may have been for the best but that's still a rebellion.

Also if you go by this standard then you should support the independence of Taiwan, because clearly they felt the CCP didn't protect their democratic rights which is of course true since China isn't democratic. If every unhappy minority claimed a parcel of land and broke away from their nation it would be chaos.

You can expect most governments to take action, and that's not going to end well for our minority, besides we're doing pretty well for ourselves in the Philippines, there's no reason to incite a fruitless conflict.


The Taiwanese were Chinese too, Taiwan is a part of their history so by your standard they didn't steal it either, yet I doubt China would see things the same way.


You support their rebel movement as justified?


Well that's somewhat speculation, there's no question it was botched and our government should have apologized for that incident, but we can't really say what would happen if it were an American tour bus, I'm pretty sure our government would have botched it either way.


Actually no they have no obligation to be extra keen with us, government protection shouldn't favor specific classes. It would of course be more beneficial for the economy to protect business owners but constitutionally we deserve no more than everyone else, and as far the the justice system goes in the Philippines we're ALL screwed except for those friends with select politicians.


Oh there's nothing wrong with warming up to China and appreciating ones cultural heritage, but if hypothetically if there was conflict between China and the Philippines and the Fil-Chinese community whom are Filipino citizens just sat it out, you should be able to understand why that might rub Filipinos the wrong way. We're hand in hand with them until we're forced to choose then we stay neutral, gives them the impression that they can't always count on us as Filipino citizens for the Philippines. I wish China would allow dual citizenships so that we would have a valid reason to stay neutral in such matters.


That's only because Taiwan is trying to goad more chinese citizens over from China to join them.

the PRC sees it differently

Article 9: Any Chinese national who has settled abroad and who has been naturalized as a foreign national or has acquired foreign nationality of his own free will shall automatically lose Chinese nationality.

Besides the influential Fil-Chinese community of the Philippines bonding with Taiwan might add further tensions with China, and we all know the economic consequences of such a move.

Amis are majority O1 not O3. As per the various studies done, MAJORITY OF Indonesians do have a lot of O2 and O3 but only a few have O1. That's why studies have presented that the Indonesians are much closer to the Tai people or generally speaking to people of INDOCHINA than they are to the Amis or the Taiwan aborigenes and so put an axe on the Taiwan origin of majority of Austronesians.

But whether Indonesians have fewer O1 or O3, that's not the point, where in fact, majority are O3's and O2's. The point of the crux is O1s, O2s and O3 subclades from Indonesians are definitely OLDER PHYLOGENETICALLY than those from China or even Taiwan. AND THUS POINTING THE SOUTHERN ORIGINS OF O HAPLOGROUP in general. Which is basically what the various studies presented by the likes of Chu et al and Su et al.


Backbone of the Song doesn't mean being the last bastion of the overthrown Song rulers. It could mean also the foundation of Song rulers. just kidding

But come to think of it, there are some evidence that some rulers or dynasties of China having southern DongYi roots much the same way as Japanese imperial had accepted their southern roots as well. Shang dynasty or is it the Xia had southern roots. Anyways, genetic evidence pointed to southern origins of the majority of the Chinese anyways.

Liusung as being backbone of the Song is just that an allegiation. But the more likely would be Liu-sung was more than anything else was just the way the early Chinese would try to speak the placename in the same how the Native Luzonians called their own land, which is LUSUNG OR LUSONG meaning mortar or crater to describe the shape of MANILA BAY, where the majority of the population centers are/were located.

Very much like Palembang in Sumatra was named Palin-fong by the Chinese not because of the meaning of Palin and fong but because it sounded near to how the natives called the native name Palembang.



Envoys? Majapahit Prince Balagtas marrying the daughter of Sultan Bolkeiah and Emperor Angka Widjaya marrying the daughter of the NATIVE King of Sapa were mere envoys.

Kapampangan researchers including the source of your theory have in fact aknowledged Prince Balagtas of Madjapahit as an actual historical person basing on the historical document found by Luther Parker in 1911, called the Will of Pansonum, which is written circa 17th century by a former Lakandula, Don Fernando Malang Balagtas, grandson of Prince Balagtas.

Don Fernando Malang Balagtas aka Pansonum would refer to his cousin Banau as Lakandula menor then christened as Don Carlos Lacandola. The former was usurped by the elder brother of Banau, Raha Matanda or Raja Ache who passed on his rulership to the last ruler of Manila, Raja Soliman.


We don't agree on that of course for the longest time. The Taiwanese aboriginals came from the Philippines. Both Y-dna and mtdna studies pointed to the southern origins.

Sambalic languages which Kapampangan belongs too are very different from the Northern Languages. We can say it's transitional between the Northern languages like Pangasinan and Southern languages like Tagalog.


Yes, he was correct. In fact, during those times, various datus had achieved autonomy and more like the decisions were given by the council of elders. And the titles Raja and Lakandula just prior to the coming of the Spaniards had become just like a figurehead or SYMBOLICAL ONLY unless he merited to be given the actual powers and authority inherent mostly important during times of war for e.g.

In fact during the time of the Spaniards, Datu Tarik Soliman of Macabebe chastised Don Carlos Lacandola, the Lakandula or supposed PARAMOUNT RULER OF LUZON KINGDOM for being coward and friendly to the Puting Mukha. Then Raja Soliman III explained to the Spaniards, that he had no real authority and thus despite the peace process or the blood compact, an invasion by the Macabebes and the Hagonoy people pushed through. For accdg to him, the people were quite independent and free to do any action they deemed necessary. Despite all these, the sons of Lakandula, joined Tarik Soliman of Macabebe and the Hagonoy warriors, some of whom died during that fateful Battle of Bangkusay, which sealed the future of the Philippines as a colony of Spain.

Another point would be that since the invasion of the Bruneians, the native Luzonians didn't actually accept the latter's dominion despite the intermarriages between the bloodlines of the native nobilities with the foreign ones. Plus there were contending factions, the Majapahit faction, the clan of Prince Balagtas with the former Lakandula, Pansonum aka Don Fernando Malang Balagtas and the faction of the Bruneians, the usurping Lakandula, Banau aka Don Carlos Lacandola together with his brother Raja Ache and his nephew Raja Soliman III.

Or as you have said, this is the way Austronesians go about dealing with political actions having to be a collective decision or CONSENSUS. That's how ORIENTALS do it since the dawn of mankind and that's how it would be for a very long time. That's REAL DEMOCRACY. MALAYA TALAGA ANG MGA KATULAD NATING MALAY NUON PA MAN. Being an archipelago, an empire to the truest sense of the word like the landbased ones is impossible. Majapahit and Srivijayan as I have said is more of a SYMBOLICAL EMPIRE and more of A THALOSOCRACY OR A COLLECTIVE ALLIANCE OR NETWORK POLITICALLY AND TRADEWISE.


The Bruneians only came during the 14th century. Obviously, the native subjects have their own native rulers even before that. The Laguna copperplate inscription proved the eminence of the Ruler of Tondo. Even the Bruneian annals stated that Sultan Bolkeiah married the daughter of the vanquished Raja.

The back drop of invasion of the Bruneians was the Mount Pinatubo eruption in the 14th century, with the waning influence of Madyapahit and the rising influence of Islam, which could have weakened the Luzon kingdom to many substates or citystates ruled by petty rulers. Plus the fact that Zheng He invaded thrice but failed. It took twice for the Bruneians to succeed.


No, it isn't, Brunei is not exactly East but South east. And Mas'udi specifically stated that the King of Khmer or Cambodia would face the east for morning prayers at the direction of the Maharaja of Zabag or Mihraj of Zabaj. The Arab's Zabag being synonymous to the chinese' Sanfotsi or Shih-li-fo-shih whom Coedes termed as SRIVIJAYAN EMPIRE. The Sun rises to the East and not to Southeast and so we have temples in Cambodia facing THE EAST WEST AXIS EXACTLY. The Khmer King wouldn't pray Southeast to the direction of Brunei as the Arab Mas'udi said. The Khmer King would do exactly the same facing that east west axis facing the MORNING SUN TO PRAY. And that is also THE DIRECTION OF THE MAJARAJA'S CAPITAL. And that's the Clue, Coedes got it wrong as to the location of Srivijaya's capital.

The location was described as rich in alluvial gold. During the mid-10th century, Akbar al-Sin states that:

"near Zabaj is a mountain called the Mountain of Fire, which it is not possible to approach. Smoke escapes from it by day and a flame by night, and from its foot comes forth a spring of cold fresh water and a spring of hot water."

The palace of the king of Zabag, again the Arab name for Sanfotsi, was described in Muslim texts as located at the water's edge of an estuary close enough to the "bay of Zabag" that saltwater flowed during high tide and freshwater during ebb. Such an estuary, it's been suggested earlier, was known in the local language as sapa, sabang or sapang from which the Arab place-name "Zabag" would be derived.

Abu Zayd said that the kingdom of Zabag faced China, probably referring to the southern port of Canton, which would have been directly across the Nanhai (South Sea) to the northwest.

This geographical description is confirmed by Mas'udi who states that the kings of the Khmer kingdom (Cambodia) face toward the kingdom of Zabag during their morning prayers i.e., toward the East, the sunrise.


Again the invasion of the BRUNEIAN RULERS and the advent of Islam to Luzon came only the 14th century.

LAGUNA COPPERPLATE INSCRIPTION was not made by BRUNEIANS during the 10th century

No, the choice for Malay could have been the decision or the consensus of all the subjects of the Mihraj or the Maharaja of Zabaj whose reign span a lot of seas and isles with many different kings and kingdoms speaking a multitude of languages under his rule.

Much like the Indonesians chose Bahasa Malay as their lingua franca despite the Javanese dominate politics to unify the people of various languages.


The Maharaja of Srivijaya or Mihraj's of Zabaj's capital was in the Philippines and so Srivijayan colonization? Anyways, there was no COLONIZATION...

It's more of INDIAN influence and alliances and intermarriages between the native rulers of the various Indianized independent states comprising the so called SRIVIJAYAN AND MAJAPAHIT THALOSOCRACIES which is not exactly synonymous to the western concept of EMPIRES. You can't have a cohesive empire which spans various isles spread wide apart by the seas as compared to LAND BASED EMPIRES. It's more like a political alliances and trading networks between various independent kingdoms or states, SYMBOLICALLY RULED BY A SINGLE MAHARAJA or Mihraj. Obviously a Maharaja in Luzon could not control the day to day activities of his subjects in Medang in Java for example.

Well yeah, if those Chinese artifacts can talk and say the Chinese ruled the natives.
No, I am just kidding. There is no discounting the numerical superiority. The various wrecks containing the majorty of those artifacts were loaded from NATIVE SHIPS and not from Chinese junks or even Bruneian type of ships. So, the NATIVE TRADERS carried the trading the most.

But this fact would gladden a sinophile like you. That the Luzon people were often confused in Jakarta or Batavia as Chinamen because of the Chinese style clothing. Luzon traders actually had the monopoly of the China trade bringing chinese porcelain to those areas.

That's the reason, the Bruneians tried to break the monopoly of the Luzonians and invaded SELURUNG or Lusung. And so Manila under Srilela or Salalila aka Raja Soliman I was established c/o his father Sultan Bolkeiah aka singing captain Nakhoda Ragam to countercheck the primacy of TONDO in the china trade.

no the truth is you are filipino, and started to pretend you were chinese somewhere around 2010. No one is impressed by your so called knowledge of chinese history as its all easily found on google if one cares enough to search for it.


3 years ago ocrap was saying "we filipinos", now he says "we chinese"

couple in the fact that you have yet to answer even 1 contradiction out of the 10+ you've made, and we've got an open and shut case of a flip flopping fraud right here.


speaking of which - if you really did go to university in 2007, its safe to assume that by then, you had already completed your 10+ years of education in chinese school?

What crap are you talk about?The O3s among the Indonesians are mostly M7 and P201*(maybe the subclade of it P164*),and they are not the so called OLDER PHYLOGENETICALLY as you falsely claimed,in fact just subclade of O3,and there are more O1 than O3 in Inbdonesia,there are O1 and O2 but no O3 in Madagascar

It is labeled simply as exactly P201 and not labeled as P201* corresponding to that exact O3a3, the older subclade and thus older phylogenetically to both subclades M134(CHINESE AND OTHER SINO-TIBETANS) and M7(INDONESIANS). Linguistically speaking both Indonesians and Chinese belong to the Sino-Austronesian superfamily which of course included Hmong-Mien, other Austro-Tai like Tai-Kradai, Austro-Asiatics and other AUSTRICS.

Thank for the corrections for I have not the data at hand when I said that. But the point of the matter is, I am trying to prove otherwise the northern Taiwan origin of Austronesians as theorized and still accepted by many.

Karafet even concluded that the majority of Austronesians are of Paleolithic origins and not from the Neolithic excursion from Taiwan.

In fact, even the so called Neolithic Austronesian expansion seemed to be centered in the Philippines accdg to the most recent mtdna studies as precursor haplotype/s of the mitochondrial Polynesian motiff, the genetic marker for Austronesian expansion, is found absent in Taiwan and present in the Philippines.

I am actually talking of those subclades collectively as older and thus pointing to SOUTHERN ORIGINS OF THE CHINESE. As studies such as this... http://159.226.149.45/compgenegroup/paper/...122%20paper.pdf
and the various studies done by Chu et al as well as Su et all all pointed to the southern origins of O haplogroup.

O3 for e.g. originated in Southeast Asia 25,000 to 35,000 years ago during the last Ice Age and not 10,000 yrs ago during the Neolithic period in China as presupposed by many. The same goes for the other companion or brethren haplogroups O1 and O2 splitting from their parent NO and from that splitting from the phylogenetic parent K (MNOPS).

Even domesticated dogs originated in Southeast Asia... http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12/south...dogs-again.html
Add to that the domestication of chicken from the Malayan jungle fowl, the domestication of pig, and the origin of glutinous rice and other aspects of Agriculture originated in Southeast Asia.

I'm glad that most of the Filipino Chinese are as enlightened as you bro. We are all in this country together. It's not as if we are like Malaysia where the premise is Chinese and Indians live in these islands at the pleasure of Malay bumiputras. We're more like Indonesians in a way where the policy is all are foreigners and all are indigenous. Any injustice done by the Philippine goverment to an ethnic Chinese Filipino is equally done to an ethnic Austronesian, even more so i believe.

I myself love going to China, I love the grandiose monuments created by thousands of years of habitation, but I am an ISEAn. We are a very independent lot. So are the Chinese migrants in these islands. They left the extreme poverty and injustice of Southern China to find a better life. That is our common history. Not Song china which is extremely irrelevant to modern Filipinos.

P201* means they belong to P201 branch,but not M134 and M7,as we can see,this branch(P201*) is common in Koreans,but no such thing as older subclades,because all modern subclades are descendants,not the ancestral type.If we use your logic,then M122*(O3*) only exist in China,but that means M122 origined in China
Even the southern origin of O3-M122 is true,that not means this branch origined in island southeast asia as you believe,this is zero possible,most likely this branch(or the ancestors of this branch) entered the east asia through the inland route,fron northeast india to Yunnan-Guizhou,then to northwest China.Surely this branch has nothing to do with the costal area,even the Chinese scientists like Shi et al(who wrote the paper claimed the M122 is of southern origin) admit this
And the STAN Theory is invested by sagart,but you missed his main point,he thought the STAN family origined in northern China,he thought the Dawenkou culture of northern China is the original speaker of Austronesian language
http://www.ranhaer.com/thread-16286-1-1.html
And people,you shouldn't call P201 as O3a3,since the tree of O already changed,please see Yan et al 2011 paper
An updated tree of Y-chromosome Haplogroup O and revised phylogenetic positions of mutations P164 and PK4
http://www.ranhaer.com/thread-15255-1-2.html

And you can see the anciet DNA of China
Y chromosomes of prehistoric people along the Yangtze River
http://comonca.org.cn/lh/Doc/A37.pdf
As the anciet DNA showes,the M134 only found in 1 sample of northern China(Taosi 2500BC-1900BC),no O3 found in southeast China(all of them belong to O1),and M95 is mostly found in middle Yangtze river9in hictorical Wucheng and prehistorical Daxi)

Yes, those statements are true for P201*, EMPHASIZED ON THE ASTERISK, which means at that particularly study was unclassified subclade of P201. Hence not M134 and M7.

Ok, listen carefully as I have carefully elaborated before.

What the Karafet study have shown an actual P201 WITHOUT THE ASTERISK. Hence the PHYLOGENETIC PARENT OF BOTH M134 AND M7.

Good thing, you have mentioned about the Dawenkou culture which preceded DongYi and Shang dynasty. All three are interconnected to the maritime and mercantilistic culture of the Austronesians.

Besides Stan, Solheim, Oppenheimer and Martin Richards often quote about the Dawenkou culture but these people believed that Dawenkou culture stemmed from the south.

Yes, I agreed that O3 originated inland that is MAINLAND SOUTHEAST ASIA which includes Yunnan. 30,000 years ago, Mainland Southeast Asia is called the SUNDALAND SUBCONTINENT, which includes the insular portion.

I have rechecked the Karafet figures, rechecked what I've earlier posted and I'm right all along even before without at hand the exact figures. O2 and O3, collectively, are definitely the majority amongst the Indonesians. O-M95* alone account to more than half. And thus the conclusion of Karafet, that majority of Austronesians in Indonesia as Paleolithic. And O1 compared to the collective numbers of O2 and O3 together is fewer relatively speaking. But O1 on its own is still substantial accounting to more than a quarter in Western Indonesia(Austronesian predominant) and you are definitely correct that it's more than what O3 has on its own(12%).

Why grouped O2 and O3 as one?There is no reason to do so,and Karafet said in her paper
“The low frequency of O-M7 in western Indonesia (i.e., Bali, Java, and Borneo) and O-M134 in Polynesia most likely reflects recent connections with mainland China (see next section).”。
"Finally, Haplogroup O-M7 is a marker of recent Chinese Influence"。

Arbitrarily grouped them(those coming from mainland Sundaland) as to separate from the supposed Neolithic excursion coming Taiwan(Bellwood).

But why we can't find O3 in Madagascar,if O3 was already present in indonesia that early?And in anciet DNA,we only find O3 in northern China?Sorry to say this,but O origined in your so-called Sundaland is zero possible,maybe NO can origined there,N and O both origined in east asia.From archeologist point of view,in LGM,the micro-blade culture spreaded from Siberia to the whole northern China,the southern border of Micro-blade culture is Huai river,many Chinese scientists thought the people of northern China invented the micro-blade independently,but it's impossible,because in northern China,before LGM,it's the Oldwan type(non-blade),I think some Mammuthus hunters fled from Siberia to northern China because of harsh environment,and the people of northern China adopted the Micro-blade,because northern China became part of Mammuthus steppe in LGM time,the environment forced them to adopted the Microblade
After LGM,the northern China became warmer,Mammuthus disapeared,so some animal hunters seeked animals to Southwest China,it's very clear,the Micro-blade culture spreaded to southwest China after LGM,and we can find C4al,C4a2,C4a3 and C4a4 in Tibeto-Burman population of both northeast india and southwest China(and Tibet)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microblade_technology
As for the origin of agriculture,again,from archeologist point of view,there is no evidence the agriculture origined in Southeast Asia,we find enough agricultural cultures of China,but in Southeast Asia,most people that time should be still hunter-gathers.The agriculture most likely origined in central China,in today's Yangtze river valley,when we find the first rice farmers of the history,the Hemudu culture,the Pengtoushan culture and so on.Even in the southern most provinces Guangdong,we can't find the early evidence of agriculture,the people of Guangdong were largely hunter-gathers till the historical time.
Accord to Sagart,the Taiwannese natives were milliet farmers before they adopted rice farming,and they origined in Dawenkou culture in today's Shandong province of northern China,and from there,they spreaded to the whole southeast asia and pasific
And people of southeast asia were negritos before the Mongoloid expansion,even the people of southern China in Neolithic time had some negrito features(for example the hemudu culture,the zengpiyan and other cultures all had the negrito features)

Can I ask you guys a favor? Can you direct arguments to the debate of Southeast Asia as the birthplace of civilization/agriculture to the thread I made on it? I'm trying to compile the information there. Thanks!

Of course, no citizens have the right to break laws. But if you feel that you are a nation-group that should not be bound to the laws of the land made by the majority (who are ethnically different from you and may have different customs and traditions), then that's a different matter. For the Bangsamoro for example, their actions (e.g., hostaging, killing, raping) are wrong, but their ideology and aim is justifiable in their own point of view.

It may be a rebellion in the EYES of the Malays (well, actually, the Malays themselves forced the Chinese to declare Spore as independent), but it certainly did MUCH GOOD for the Chinese of the Malay Peninsula. They now HAVE their OWN government in which THEY have the say and THEY control. The MALAYS did NOTHING GOOD in Singapore, so what's the use of Singapore sticking with Malaysia?

I'm talking about minorities who are not part of the majority AND ARE SHORTCHANGED: Chinese in Malaya, for example, who made Singapore. Taiwan on the other hand, is of the same ethnic group as the other Han Chinese in Mainland and are not all shortchanged when it comes to democracy - because the PRC actually offers them a status similar to Hong Kong where they get to control their own affairs and remain democratic, but they refuse.

Doing pretty well in what? Economy? Yes, but what is doing good in economy if your children get kidnapped all of the time or your relative gets killed because of a robbery? It would not be a fruitless conflict. It would be the dawn of an era of a shortchanged ethnic minority who are well-off and well-educated.

Of course all these would NOT be necessary if the government really showed goodwill in extending their hand toward the Chinese-Filipinos, such as by reserving ONE seat in the Senate to represent the Chinese-Filipino group (they should also do the same to the Bangsamoro and Igorots) ,declaration of Chinese as a constitutional language (as what Spanish and Arabic are now), and beefing up the security of Chinese-Filipinos against almost daily crimes, however minor these are.




Like I said above, if they are SHORTCHANGED, then why not.

Look at underdeveloped Mindanao versus overdeveloped environs of Central Luzon. Hmmmm. Now you still wonder why the Moros there are fuming?!?!?!

How about the profiling of Moros as bad people by the general public?



Uh no. I'm sure they would've killed the hostage taker if the bus was fullof American tourists. Obama would've instructed them to do so.
Filipinos' superior view of Americans would compel them to protect their white gods.



Oh, but government's protection falls short of protecting its citizens, especially those of Chinese heritage.



Actually, in any conflict between China and the Philippines, you should SIDE with the CORRECT COUNTRY, and now just stay neutral.

For example, in the Spratlys conflict, China has occupied the islands since 110 AD and here comes newcomer Philippines, toting its flag over one of the islands on 1956 AD. Of course, China has the most correct view. Even American authors who analyzed the problem were in a way forced to admit that really, China is the only country who have the rights to own the Spratlys (Nanshas).

You yourself are already a de facto dual citizen, as are all Chinese-Filipinos. As I've said, all Chinese-Filipinos are technically Republic of China citizens and are entitled to a R.O.C. passport and residency rights should they choose to. (Right to Return Law)

Also, as a sidenote, Philippine citizens (like Latin Americans) need only two years of residency in Spain to gain Spanish-European citizenship. All other nationals need five years. This is on the premise that "all Filipinos are descendants of Spaniards and are blood brothers to the Spanish" (Right to Return Law).



Legally, that does NOT apply to most Chinese-Filipinos. Most were natural-born Philippine nationals are did not choose it out of their own free will. Hahaha. LOL.

Actually, the Chinese-Filipino community has traditionally always sided with the Kuomintang / Republic of China, since Taiwan people are also largely Hokkienese.

Most of the Chinese textbooks we use in Chinese schools are sponsored and published by the Overseas Compatriot Affairs Commission (OCAC) of the Ministry of Education of Republic of China (Taiwan) and printed in Taiwan (R.O.C.). It's only recently that many Chinese schools started using textbooks from China Mainland / Singapore to include Pinyin and Simplified Chinese. But before 2006, most textbooks were from Taiwan.

I agree "in their point of view" however laws just don't change to cater to individual perspectives unless its done properly through reforms and the government still has the authority to put down rebellions to restore order.


Again you make it as if we're the only ones suffering I'm starting to wonder if you even live here anymore. Granted usually the wealthy Fil-Chi get targeted by kidnappers but compared to everyone else we're not as often the target of street shootings, muggings, rape or other more common crimes that are even more rampant. We're not the only abused minority, if anything we are among the much larger abused majority us Fil-Chi along with a most of the Filipinos, the only ones really protected are the "special" minority friends and relatives of the corrupt and influential.


We're all supposed to be represented as Filipino citizens not segregated into groups, also you previously asked me to confirm that even among Fil-Chi there is difficulty with the Chinese language which I did confirm because it is true, so how can you now expect it to be declared a constitutional language when even the minority that speaks it can barely read and write it, of course that doesn't make sense. Here's the language most of us are fluent in English.


They can fume, they can leave, they can seek reforms and rally but once they pick up a gun they're fair game to be shot. Only idiots think they can get more development by turning the area into a warzone, even us Fil-Chi don't even want to do business in Mindanao anymore because if it. I personally know of someone who just pulled out of there late last year because of the violence, they'll be setting up shop here in Luzon, no surprise why its more developed here.


Our government fails in protecting ALL of its citizens regardless of ethnicity and yet you focus excessively on the Fil-Chi as victims this is where your racial bias becomes evident.


Ancient maps and long gone historic people called dibs? Oh please, but I believe we have already discussed this on the other thread, its off topic here we can continue this point back there if you want.


Chinese citizenship ROC is not recognized by mainland China, and most UN nations support the one China policy. Also Taiwan citizenship is misleading, we may be able to get a passport but we can't vote on just that, so we aren't really represented in their parliament as you had previously claimed. In fact most of what you post regarding representation seems to be in the context of race rather than governance.


So I take it you either don't like being a Philippine citizen or had already opted to change your citizenship by now?


Actually I still live here around the Hokkienese and most of the people I know support the one China policy and the reunification of Taiwan with China, I also know for a fact that a lot of the Fil-Chi community invest a lot in mainland China, others even supporting some schools over there with contributions.

Yep, governments have the authority to put down rebellions - however, certain sectors of the society, especially the underrepresented peoples, also have the right to complain and voice out the issues affecting their community, and to declare sovereignty or openly rebel if the current government does not work out solutions.

After all, democracy is about the voice of the people.



But then you have to admit, the ratio of crimes affecting Fil-Chi are way larger than the ratio of crimes affecting the rest of the Philippine society. Also, we haven't even considered the minor, albeit numerous offenses such as slandering the Chinoy community in the Internet.



Well, the Spanish language is declared a constitutional language out of respect for the Spanish community in the Philippines. Arabic language likewise was made constitutional language for the Muslim community. If that is so, and everyone speaks Tagalog, then you mean, remove Spanish and Arabic and including English?

Of course not. Chinese should be made Constitutional Language to recognize the Chinese community being distinct from the rest of Philippine society, as they did for the Spanish Mestizos and the Muslims.



If you look at the history of Mindanao, you can't really blame them. The Catholic Filipinos sided with the Spaniards and literally abused the Muslim Filipinos by trampling on their sovereignties as independent sultanates, not giving them rights and representation in the government, etc. etc. That's why I said Muslims should be given at least one seat in recognition of their distinctiveness fromthe rest of the Philippine nation and to give them a voice.

Actually, there are a lot of Chinoys in Muslim Mindanao, especially in Zamboanga and Cotabato, where they also dominate the trade. The only area where Chinoys are afraid to settle in is Marawi.



The ratio is higher on the side of the Chinoys, I tell you. XP
This doesn't even include YET the NUMEROUS insults, tirades, and bashing made by Malay Filipinos against the Chinese Filipinos online.



Don't tell me you don't believe in ancient Ming Dynasty and Han Dynasty documents?!?! We all know that China was the inventor of paper and printing and for sure they would've kept documents. I already explained in another thread why the Philippines or any other country for that matter does not have any right whatsoever to the Nansha Islands, whether they use the Tomas Cloma or the UNCLOS Principle.



You can't vote, but you can opt to formally return and vote. Also, as an Overseas Chinese, you can join any political party and get voted on one of the eight seats reserved for Overseas Chinese - provided of course that upon winning, you renounce your original citizenship.



No. Liking the Philippines is not tantamount to liking the Philippine government, or vice versa.
If a Chinese government ruled the Philippines since independence, I'm pretty sure the Phils would be as modern and progressive as Thailand or Malaysia. This is because of less regionalism, less nepotism, and a more authoritarian government. If you don't believe me, look at the most progressive nations of SEA: S'Pore, M'Sia, Thailand, and Brunei. All have >15% Chinese populations. The poor ones all have 1% Chinese populations or less.



True, but for the most part, at least during the 1960s-1980s, most supported the One China policy under the Republic of China - Taiwan, because the Taiwanese government was friendly to the Chinese-Filipinos and open to dual citizenship. On the other hand, PRC openly renounced ALL rights they have to ALL Overseas Chinese outside of China in the Bandung Conference. That pissed OCs off and led them to join forces with the Kuomintang instead.

Taiwan (Republic of China), for instance, openly declared economic war and warned Indonesia during the race riots of 1998 when a lot of Chinese got killed/raped there. This is despite the fact that virtually all of those Chinese there are already Indonesian nationals. The Taiwan/R.O.C. move was made in consideration of the DE FACTO CHINESE NATIONALITY (via R.O.C.) of all the Indonesian-Chinese.

Economic investment and support for local schools in the Mainland does not automatically mean that the Chi-Fils support P.R.C., although many now do. For our clan, for example, we sent a lot of money to build a school in our ancestral hometown in Chin-kang (now Jinjiang in Quanzhou, Fujian), but our loyalties were traditionally toward the Republic of China, for the reason being that R.O.C. maintained the Chinese nationalities of all Overseas Chinese and that during departure from China, the R.O.C. in fact was still the governing power.

During the P.R.C. takeover (1949), emigration was put to a halt, Some of my grandparents were one of those who were able to ride the last boats (during the last hours of R.O.C./Kuomintang sovereignty in Mainland China) to the Philippines. No wonder most Chi-Fils during the 50s-80s support R.O.C.

So the bottom-line is, all Chinese-Filipinos are DE FACTO Philippine and Chinese (R.O.C.) nationals.

Therefore, it is not a crime to stay neutral on things that affect both countries (e.g., Spratlys claim) - although historically speaking, China has the right to the Spratlys/Nanshas. It's just most Chinoys are afraid to acknowledge it for fear of reprisal from the locals.

Democracy is majority rule, we vote for one president and we accept the ruling of the majority, the candidates who secure less votes don't get to declare their respective sovereign communities where their voters can claim as their own land. Not every group gets their way, no government does that, it may as well be anarchy.


I have heard people say that but have honestly never seen the actual statistic.


Mostly they insult Chinese in general, but sometimes it includes Chinoys because some don't bother to mark the difference. That is also why I'm against a lot of the things you post because it fans the flames of the internet, your not going to get people to stop hating on us by promoting racial superiority it just pisses them off more.


I believe most of Mindanao is Muslim, but if it makes you feel better they made Chinese new year a holiday this year out of respect for the Fil-Chi community so there's that.


Yeah same can be said for the Chinese, they didn't have a whole lot of rights back in the Spaniard Era, the Chinese were even massacred a couple of times, but you don't see us throwing a hissy fit war over it today, reforms were made and we worked with it.


If you recall we actually left our discussion on that thread hanging, you never did respond to my post #19 directed at you, I believe you got "distracted" by someone spamming in huge letters and you both went a little nuts with the all caps and then the mods cleaned up that mess. :P

If you want, respond to my post #19 on that thread and we can pick it up where we left off.


First off that's racist so please stop that it makes us look bad, South Korea and Japan are doing pretty well and I'm pretty sure its not just because of the ethnic Chinese. Secondly how would there be less nepotism? Nepotism is practically ingrained in our culture.


Well I looked it up a bit just out of curiosity and even under the assumption that we were dual citizens I have not come across any law that states we can actually be neutral, in fact the only thing I found in regards to dual citizens is that if there were a conflict between both nations by staying neutral you actually betray your obligations to serve both countries and can be held accountable by both countries later.

And if you think about it how can you expect Filipinos or even China-Chinese who bled in a conflict to regard us neutrals with the same sense of camaraderie as those whom actually sided with them. If you want to be regarded as a true Filipino equal of you have to show them that your just like them not differentiate yourself, which is what you seem to be intent on doing.

Which is why I believe your posts emphasizing ethnic Chinese as historically better is only counter productive to the Fil-Chi community trying to be accepted. Treasure your heritage don't flaunt it, practice your culture but don't go around bragging about how BETTER you think it is, of course people will start to dislike you.

The sad part is that ocrap isnt even chinese - he is a blatant flip flop and liar


His accounts of going to chinese school are full of holes - he cant even get the amount of time he spent there right

Most importantly - he BLATANTLY stated 3 years ago,"No, I'm not Chinoy."


His Chinese school was firstly chinese and filipinos, then he backtracked that statement to include a healthy mix of spanish mestizos and koreans, which frankly i find unlikely.



To be honest, anything he says must be taken with a grain of salt, especially after the "Yo habla espanol" incident.

Out of curiosity what is that? lol

Well for the long story, see "Amis People" thread which is probably a few pages back by now.


In summary:

Just as he pretends to be 90% chinese, ocrap also pretends to be 10% spanish.


Upon reading his posts,i spotted yet another flip flop - namely, how he said he did not know spanish, yet claimed 1 week later he was fluent.

In an effort to prove that he was indeed fluent, he typed out [i.e google translated] a spanish sentence full of irregularities, but none so glaring as the phrase, "Yo habla espanol."

I only speak basic spanish, but "Yo habla espanol" is tantamount to "I speaks English."

I called immediate BS on this, seeing as to how the entire sentence was awkwardly constructed.


In typical fashion, ocrap proceeded to defend his statement as actually being 100% correct spanish [you can see for yourself in the Amis People thread that he is actually defending his phrase as correct]. However, several months later, he now defends his phrase as being a mere typo.

Not only is this a blatant flip-flop - but its actually pure BS - the correct translation is "Yo hablo espanol." As you can see, his google translated sentence didnt give him the proper conjugation - but if it really was a typo - how did he mix up "o" and "a" as they are nowhere near each other on the keyboard.



And believe me, this truly is just the tip of the iceberg.