This is what I've read about Funan, Siam and Lavo.


พงศาวดารจีน เล่มที่ 8 ฉบับที่ 252 ซึ่งเรียบเรียงขึ้นในสมัยราชวงศ์หมิง
ได้รวบรวมประวัติความเป็นมาของ ประเทศไทย ซึ่งในสมัยนั้นจีนเรียกว่า
“เสียมหลอก๊ก” แปลว่า “อาณาจักรสยาม - ละโว้” มีใจความว่า
เสียมหลอก๊ก แต่เดิมเป็น ประเทศฟูนัน
ตั้งอยู่ทางทิศตะวันตกของประเทศหลินยี่“อาณาจักรจามปา”
ระยะทางห่างกันราว 3,000 ลี้ ฟูนันก๊ก ตั้งอยู่ตรงอ่าวใหญ่ มีพื้นที่กว้างขวางกว่า
3,000 ลี้ พลเมืองเป็นชาวนา ทำนาปีหนึ่งได้ผลพอกินไปถึง 3 ปี
เคยติดต่อทางพระราชไมตรีกับราชสำนักจีนตลอดมา ตั้งแต่สมัยราชวงศ์จิ๋น, สุ้ง,
ฉี, เหลียง, สุย , จนถึงสมัยราชวงศ์ถังประเทศฟูนัน ได้แตกแยกออกเป็น 2
ประเทศ คือ เสียงก๊ก (ประเทศสยาม) กับ หลอหูก๊ก (ประเทศละโว้)
ต่อมารวมกันได้ พระเจ้าหงอู่ แห่งราชวงศ์หมิง
ทรงเรียกชื่อประเทศนี้เสียใหม่ว่าเสียมหลอก๊ก (ประเทศสยาม-ละโว้)

This is a summary of what it said in English.

In Chinese Annal book No. 8, issue 252, which is written during Ming Dynasty, it's said that Sian-lo Kok was what the Chinese called "Funan"

It was broken in to Sien Kok and Lohu Kok and later merged again into Sien-lo or today Siam.




Anyone has any access to that Chinese Annal?

Syam may be Xie Tou in Southern Thailand???

I read it somewhere, that Chinese Emperor called King Taksin as King of Xie Tou even if they had been calling Siam as Xienlo for long time.

ZDG said Syam is southwest of Angkor, that the location of southern Thailand, not central Thailand.

I love Chinese annals too. There are very details.

I think you guys should focus your whole disscusions in one Thread.
I'm sure this discussion will deviate like the other threads.
Just a note ^^

Deleted..

I've read some analysis from a Japanese scholar, he said Xie Tou is somewhere near Songkla, southern thailand.

PS> Chinese annal said that the King of Xie Tou had the same last name with Lord Buddha (Sakkaya)

Xie Tou or Chitu = red earth. If you've been to southern Thailand you will know that the soil overthere is red.

Yes, Chinese annals are less bias and they contain a lot of details.

Too bad Thailand doesn't have Chiense annal translated. We could learn a lot from these documents.

Professor Tuan Li Sheng who came to teach in many university in Thailand once said that the history of Thailand as we learn it is a fake one. It was belittled by the westhern colonists. And he tried to translate some Chinese annals to help understanding how great Thailand was.

These are some of his books.

http://www.kledthaishopping.com/product-th...5%E0%B8%99.html

http://libauto.tsu.ac.th/ulib/dublin.php?ID=13399174884

The history of Thailand (Siam) written by Professor Tuan Li Sheng doesn't look like what we learned in the class.

Let's see how Funan related to Srivijaya and Siam, Lavo.

First let me show you what and where Funan was.

I've posted about Funan in Cambodia chat but I think it should be in here because Funan was in Southern Thailand.

OK, where was Funan?

The Chinese record "Liang Shu" says that Funan was around 3,000 li "south west" of "Ling-i" or (Champa) in a "big bay" on the "west" of the sea and had a big river entering the sea in the east.

Until today, western scholars still can't find where Funan was (you know the reason why they couldn't find it, right? , but they "believed" that it was in South Vietnam (Oc Eo) which contradicts to what the Chinese had recorded that it was 3,000 li south west of Champa (south vietnam)

We know that Funan must be on the east coast because it said in Chinese record that it was on the west of the sea. So we can rule out the possibilities that it was in today Cambodia and south Vietnam (on the Gulf of Thailand side)

3,000 Li is around 1,200 - 1,500 km because Chinese ancient Li was not a fix measurement, it ranged from 400m-500m (today it was fixed at 500m)

If we use Champa (Chinese called Ling-i) as the starting point, we can show that 3,000 Li south west of Champa is not possible to be in the east coast of Vietnam, but it's possible to be somewhere near southern Thailand on the east coast (around 1,000 km+ SW from Vietnam)

Chinese record also say that there was a big river flowing from the northwest and enters the sea in the east.

Most rivers in SEA run from north to south, so it's not difficult to identify such river that run to the sea in the east near a "big bay"

If you take a look at Ban Don Bay (อ่าวบ้านดอน) in Suratthani, southern Thailand, you will see this big river (Tapi River ตาปี) run into the sea in the east.



And we have found several "Funan" arts around Suratthani on the east coast and Takuapa on the west coast (as shown in the map)

Not only that, the Chinese record also says about a Brahmin named "Qiaochenru" (Kaundinya / โกญทัญญะ) who came to Panpan in Funan and Funan people made him king of Funan.

This is what it said.


Later, there was king Qiaochenru who was originally a Brahmin from India. A god told him "you will be king of Funan", and he was pleased in his heart and travelled to the kingdom of Panpan. The people of Funan heard about it and all welcomed him happily and made him king. He changed the institutions of the country to follow the Indian laws.



I will talk about the last sentence (He changed the institutions of the country to follow the Indian laws.) later, but for now, it shows that before Qiaochenru's arriving, it was not governed by Indian.

Now go back to Panpan.

Panpan is identified to be today Punpin in Suratthani (near Chaiya)

It's said clearly that Qiaochenru came to Panpan and people of Funan made him king!

So, how could Panpan not what the Chinese called "Funan"????

How could the French historians made it to Oc Eo in south Vietnam????

3,000 Li (1,200 - 1,500 km) south west of Champa, on the "east coast" of a big bay (Ban Don Bay), having river entering the sea to the east (Tapi river) and the Panpan of Funan.

How could you conclude that it was not in Suratthani, southern Thailand????

BTW, this is the English translation of the Chinese's record about Funan.
http://www.funan.de/culture1.php

You can read the whole record there, if you want.

Now, let's dig into who was the king of Funan.

It's said in the Chinese record (Liang Shu) that the first king of Funan was Hun-Tien (150 - 199.)

For Chinese, they called Kaundinya as Qiaochenru, a 3 syllable word, not a 2 syllable word like Hun Tien.

The Frenches mistaken Hun Tien with "Qiaochenru", a Brahmin from India who came to be King in Funan in 357 (some 200 years later)

Actually the word "Hun" is not a Chinese word, but it was just the way Chineses pronounced "Kun" which was the title for king of Tai speaking people (for example, Kun Pha Muang, Kun Ram)

So, Hun Tien is mostlikely "Kun Tien" (Thai ขุนเทียน), a king of Tai speaking people.

According to Chinese, Hun Tien had a son named Hun Pankuang which later became the king after him.

Hun Pankuang = Kun Pan Wang or ขุนพันวัง

Hun Pankuang had a son named "Hun Pan Pan" (whose name later be the name of the kingdom Panpan)

Hun Pan Pan = Kun Pan Pan (ขุนพันพาน)

This is a summary of the names of the king of Funan during 150 - 357 (which I call "pre-indianized" period):

1) Hun Tien = Kun Tien = ขุนเทียน (150 - 199)
2) Hun Pankuang = Kun Pan Wang = ขุนพันวัง (200 - 226) <-- Kun Tien's son
3) Hun Pan Pan = Kun Pan Pan = ขุนพันพาน (227 - 230) <-- Kun Pan Wang's son
4) Fan Man / Fan Shi Man = Pan Te Man = พันทีมัน (231 - 242) <-- he was a general in Panpan's army, not his son.
5) Fan Jincheng = Pan Chin = พันจีน (243 - 260) <- Fan Man's son
6) Fan Zhan = พัน? (261 - 274) <- Fan Man's nephew
7) Fan Chang = Pan Chang = พันชั่ง (275-278) <- Fan Man's son
8) Fan Xun = Pan Sun = พัน? (279 - ?) < Fan Chan's General, not his son.
9) Zhuzhantan = ? (343 - 356)

All these kings are what I called "Pre-Indianized" kings.

The French historians didn't want to guess what "Hun Tien" was. Do you know why?

Because they couldn't get any other way except to conclude that it was from the word "Kun", a title of Thai king.

That would make their theory that the Tai didn't have any presence in this region before 12th century failed.

Another reason is that they intentionally wrongly put the center of it in southern Vietnam instead of southern Thailand, so they couldn't get a name in other language that make sense.

That's why you see no attempt to get a meaningful name of Hun Tien.

Now go back to the king's name.

After the last Tai speaking king (Zhuzhantan around 357) there was a Brahmin from India named Qiaochenru "Kaundinya" arrived at Panpan and people made him the king of Funan.

Let me requote the Chinese' record:


Later, there was king Qiaochenru (Kaundinya II - Leeporter)) who was originally a Brahmin from India. A god told him "you will be king of Funan", and he was pleased in his heart and travelled to the kingdom of Panpan (Pun Pin, Suratthani - Leeporter). The people of Funan heard about it and all welcomed him happily and made him king. He changed the institutions of the country to follow the Indian laws.


If you read carefully the last sentence in this paragraph you will find a very important event of Funan.

It said "He changed the institutions of the country to follow the Indian laws." !!!

That started the indianized state of SEA and it was the original of the word "Varman"

And it happened there in PanPan,or Pun Pin in Suratthani, southern Thailand!

If you take a look of the name of the king after 357, they started to have the Varman (Chinese say Bamo) things in their title, for example, after Kaundinya, there were:

11) Qiaochenru (Kaundinya) 357 - 419
10) Chilituobamo (not sure, but should be SriindraVarman) 420 - 430
11) Sheyebamo (Jayavarman or Chaiyavarman) 431 - 482
12) Qiaochenru Sheyebamo (Kaundinya Jayavarman) 483-514
13) Liutuobamo (Rudravarman) 515 - 549
14) Bhavavarman 550 - ? <-- the last Varman of Funan in the Chinese record

What's changed? The title Kun and Tai names were replaced with Varman.

It shows clearly the change from Tai speaking empire to an Indian influences empire during 357.

And I would like to say that Sheyebamo or what the French called "Jayavarman" should be "ChaiyaVarman" to reflect the name of Chaiya in Suratthani. (Chaiya was the capital of Panpan)

That concludes this chapter of the name of the Tai king and how it changed to Varman in 357.

These Varman dynasty later expanded to central Thailand, north eastern and Cambodia, Vietnam by mixing with Mon and Tamil and other local people and the center of the empire was shifted to today around Mekhong river.

Later on (around 670), the empire was broken and the ruler of Funan fled back to Panpan in Suratthani and established a new state called Shih-li-fo-shi or Sri Bhodhi (ศรีโพธิ์) by merging other states in the Malay Peninsula (such Chi-tu, Tan-tan, Pan-pan, Malayu, Jambi, Palembang etc.) and started to control trading in Malacca Strait.

This is the first period of Srivijaya, having its center in Chaiya, Suratthani.

The leftover of the empire in central and northeastern thailand later became Chenla (Chola) a mixed of Tai, Mon, Indian, Tamil. They moved a lot of Tamil from Sumatra to populate the empire in today Cambodia and Vietnam.

Around 745, Chenla attacked Shih-li-fo-shi (Sri Bhodhi / ศรีโพธิ์) and took control of Mallaca strait for around 20 years.

Then in 768, this Shih-li-fo-shi counter attacked Chenla and recovered Chaiya and Nakhon Si Thammarat and formed a new empire with Śailendra dynasty of Java.

This is the second period of Srivijaya, having its center in Java and it disappeared from Chinese's record in 860.

Srivijaya came into the record of Chinese again in 904 - 1178 in the name of San-fo-chi (Srivijaya or Srivichai)

That's pretty much what I learned from several sources, mainly from the chinese record.

I am not saying that it's 100% correct, but I believe that this is prerry much what happened in Funan/Chenla/Srivichai period.

I still don't understand the relation with Dvaravati (Chinee called Po-li-lo-cha) yet, but I will understand it soon, I guess.

What I know for now is that Dvaravati first contacted China around 636, some 30-40 years before the first period of Srivijaya (Shih-li-fo-shi), so it must related to the explode of the empire around 600 - 670.

For example, Funan = Dvaravati + Srivijaya + Chenla.

Makes perfect logical sense.

Because western archaeologists found some coins and inscriptions, they think Funan was in Cambodia lol If Funan was indeed such a large maritime empire. Then it would have covered a vast region which would also include Cambodia. Though honestly is there even a inscription in Cambodia which says Funan was there at all? it's starting to sound like a lot of fantasy again

Even if we draw a circumference of 300km around the location 3000 Li of Champa, we will still not be anywhere near Cambodia. Now im beginnning to wonder if the Phrea Thong legend is more accurate than first thought.

The area of Cambodia was originally Cham country with Khmer hill tribes inhabiting it. Then the Mon came (Phra Thong) and ruled over the area. It would fit in with the 1886 translation of the Phra Thong myth.

I think Im going to try and make a map of the kingdoms when I get home.

This Funan theory makes much more sense than any crap that has come before. Using Chinese record as well as geographical features of the area. Im still baffled as to how they came up with the conclusion Funan was in Cambodia.

The history of almost 2,000 years of Funan and this region is quite complicate. It took me several days/nights to understand how each fraction of this empire related.

This is what I found.

During its peak period (King Fan Shi Man 231 - 242), Funan expanded its empire to south Isaan and Cambodia and the capital was moved from Chaiya to Vyadhapura (Javadhapura) in today Cambodia by Fan Shi Man's order. (BTW, translation of that Vyadhapura as "the city of the hunter" was a joke, don't try to look after the name "hunter")

Another lineage of Hun Tien (Tai+Tamil Lineage) had expanded earlier to Cambodia, propagating their kingdoms with Tamil from Sumatra and probably some local people (aka Khmer)

The kingdoms of this Tamil lineage later took over Vyadhapura and kicked them back to Chaiya and established a stronger Chola (land) with the influence of Chola dynasty in India.

Another lineage (Tai+Mon Lineage) expanded to Isaan (Kalasin area) and built "Fa Daad Soon Yang" (name after Hun Tien's 4 sons with his Mon concubine "Princess Isaan/Isuan"), people call this city "Sema/Sima"

This is about "Fa Daad Soon Yang", kingdom of Mon in Isaan which established before Hun Tien died (199)

http://www.livekalasin.com/index.php?optio...&Itemid=152

http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B8%9F%E0%...%B8%B2%E0%B8%87

I beleive this is what you called "Eastern Mon"?

BTW, I've found this lovely song about "Fa Daad Soon Yang" while doing research about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xezGf6Lz6ao

This kingdom expanded to cover north Issan and later merged with Chola. I don't know how this kingdom related to Dvaravati, but I believe that Dvaravati was a part of the break out between each lineages of Funan after the fall of Funan.

After the break out between Chola and the direct lineage (the queen lineage) of Hun Tien in Vyadhapura, the elites of Funan fled back to Panpan or Chaiya (around 670) and recreated a new kingdom which later became Srivijaya in Chaiya, southern Thailand.

Srivijaya at Chaiya started to control trading route between India and China because it was not possible for teh sailor to go via Mallac strait during south-west monsoon.

They had to land on the west coast of Thailand and used land bridge to east coast and sail to South Vietnam before moving northward to China.

Chola attacked Srivijaya around 741-745 and tookover it for a short period (around 20 years) and Srivijaya took it back (around 768)

Since gaining the power back, Srivijaya were much stronger and had supremacy over Chola for a long time.

Jayavarman II's parents were probably captured by Srivijaya back to Chaiya.

I believe that his name should be "Chaiyavarman"

He was sent back to Chola around 800 - 802 to rule the kingdom.

Another example was in 1002, a king named "Sujita" from Tambralinga (Nakorn Sri Thammarat, south of Chiya) marched a huge army to Lavo (Lopburi) and made himself the king of Lopburi.

His son was "Kambojaraja" or Suriyavarman I who later became the king of Chola (Angkor period)

And that could explain why we saw kings from southern Thailand (aka Srivijaya) went to rule Angkor.

Chola was under Srivijaya!

Yes muang fa Daed soong yang are the eastern Mon Iam referring to

However, from what I have read about it the founder of the city was a prince from nong sae. The king had sent his sons south to found their own kingdoms.

I'm not sure if these kingdoms were founded by princes of Sri vijaya though as the legends only ever mentioned Mons.

I agreed!!! They should focus in one!!! Deleted this threat is better!!! ^^ it too many threat already talking the same $hit!! ^^

I have read somewhere that this kingdom "Fa Daad Soon Yang" was named after Kun Tian (Hun Tien)'s son.

Kun Tian had 4 kids with his Mon concubine:
- Prince Fa Issan
- Prince Fa Daad
- Prince Fa Soong
- Prince Fa Yang


Don't you think that Fa, Daad, Soong, Yang are Tai word?

This Mon lineage later expand throughtout Isaan and mixed with Tamil lineage (Soma Lineage) in Khong Delta and finally cause a fighting between them and the queen lineage (Fan shi Man/ Pan Te Man) around 540 and forced the queen lineage to move back to Chaiya and establish SriBhodi (Shih-li-fo-shi / Srivichaiya)

So, basically, my understanding is like this:

Funan expanded its empire throughout SEA mainland and sea with 3 main lineages; 1) the princess, 2) Mon concubine (Isaan) and 3) Tamil concubine (Soma)

The queen lineage, Fan Shi Man, moved the capital city from Chaiya to Vyathapura (some time between 231 - 260.)

The Mon lineage later became the founder of Chenla or Chola.

The first 2 king of Chenla, Bhavavarman I (550 - 589) and his brother Mahendravarman (Prince Jittasen 590 – 610) were in this Mon lineage.

King Bhavavarman, a Mon lineage from Funan, started building the kingdom of Chenla in Setrapura (near Wat Phu) in southern Laos and his brother Prince Jittasen (Mahendravarman) helped expanding the kingdom down to Bhavapura in today northern Cambodia.

Mahendravarman's son was "Isaan Varman" and this was the period when the Mon Lineage started to take over the queen lineage by taking Vyathapura from Rudravarman, the last queen lineage King of Funan (in the period between 550-617)

And the queen lineage fled back to Chaiya and established SriBhodi (Shih-li-fo-shi) or Srivichai by moving the capital of the 10 kingdoms in the south from Chitu (Songkla) to Chaiya in PanPan, Suratthani.

The Mon Lineage of IsaanVarman later merged with the Tamil Lineage from southern Cambodia (I have not understand how yet ) and attacked Srivichai in 745.

The period during the transition between Funan to Chenla + Srivichai are quite complicate, the information I have are not clear; but one thing for sure, there was no "Khmer" involved in the early period of Chenla.

Lolzzz No Historian heard about your theory... Funan History wrote by Thai must have in Tai name man!!! kekekekeek Anyways what more interested is Thailand register Sokhothai as world heritage side which mention the intermarriage of the founder of Sokothai with a Khmer woman!!! So it was Khmer since the beginning of Thailand history!! ^^
http://www.world-heritage-site.com/2010/09...historic-towns/


What a failed Thai society completing with a confusing everywhere!!

Did you find Khmer name in Funan history?

I've studied history of Funan starting from 190 up to Isanavarman in 610 and still not yet found anything related to Khmer.

Have you?

Kyoto-seas.org/pdf/11/4/110404.pdf

Something about the kingdoms in khorat plateau.

It's the same story I read, except that in my version there were 4 brothers:

- Prince Fa Issan
- Prince Fa Daad
- Prince Fa Soong
- Prince Fa Yang

But in this version, there were only 2 princes: Fa Daad and his brother Soong Yang.

What I read is that these (2 of 4) princes were Kun Tien's son with his Mon wife.

Do you think it is possible that Hun Tien of Funan in Chaiya and Praya Thaen, the legend in Boon Bung Fai of Isaan were the same person?

I suspect that Hun Tien was Kun "Thaen" the legend, but I still can't find no link.

Oh, it's good to know that the indian name of Fa Daad was Aditaya Raja and his brother was Isuraya, very interesting.

BTW, we know for sure that these Fa Daad Soon Yang are related to Mon, but do you think these names are Mon, Tai or Khmer?

In Thai, Fa = sky
Daad = sunlight
Soong = high
Yang = ??

Fa Daad reflects the name Adithaya or the sun god. I guess.

PS> I just used voice pronounciation in google translation to read the word 混填 which is said to be Hun-Tien and you know what, it doesn't sound like Hun-Tien to me, it sound more like "Khon-Tien"

'Khmer' is found in stone inscription at Wat Phu, Champasak. It's a name of female slave. It's in Chenla period.

Corpus of Khmer Inscriptions
Note that this search has been restricted to selected texts (click clear all to removed these restrictions).
Restrictions are: Inscription(s): 366 A.
1 item

Inscription 366 A (site: Vat PHU, area: Basak, Saka year: 1061)
{13} 1025 śaka gi nu vraḥ pāda kamrateṅ 'añ śrījayavarmmadeva stac dau oy sraṅ kamrateṅ jagat vraḥ rūpa vraḥ thkval vraḥ kamrateṅ 'añ
{14} ta guru 'nak ryyan tapaśvi siṅ xxxxx dval vraḥ karuṇā leṅ 'āc ti xxx ka thve caṃnāṃ kalpanā viṅ nā kamrateṅ jagat śrībhadreśvara
{15} 1026 śaka gi nu mān vraḥ śāsana pandval śrīxxxxxāka bhagavan 'arccaṇa kamrateṅ jagat śrībhadreśvara lvaḥ ta rājya vraḥ pāda kamrateṅ 'añ śrīsūryyavarmmadeva
{16} thvāy saṃnvat dval vraḥ karuṇā mān vraḥ śāsana pandval pre sthāpanā 1050 śaka sthāpanā vraḥ śivaliṅga bhagavatī mahīṣāsuramardanī vraḥ viṣṇu jeṅ
{17} pryal ta kuti bhaveśvarāśrama jā 'āsana kamrateṅ jagat kanloṅ kamrateṅ 'añ nā stac sapp saṃvatsara 1054 śaka sthāpanā vraḥ śaṅkaranārāyana kaṃluṅ vraḥ
{18} prāṅ 1058 śaka sthāpanā vraḥ śrīguru 105ṅ śaka sthāapanā vraḥ viṣṇu bhagavatī śrī cat gok khnap seḥ 1061 śaka sthāpanā vraḥ rājavināyaka 'aṣṭabhuja saṅ 'āśrama
{19} nau bhūmi cat sruk duk khñuṃ ta thve caṃnāṃ kalpaṇā sapp xxxnā vraḥ śakti vraḥ caru diṇa liḥ prām vṅya krayā sraṅ svok thvāy saṅkrānta je vyar nā kanloṅ kamrateṅ
{20} 'añ kamrateṅ jagat senāpati saṅkrānta xxxxx nā vraḥ phoṅ ti sthāpanā vraḥ śivaliṅga vraḥ viṣṇu bhagavatī dina je 1 saṅkrānta liḥ 8
{21} 'var 2 vraḥ śaṅkaranārāyana dina liḥ xxx saṅkrānta liḥ vraḥ śrīguru xxxxx saṅkrānta liḥ 1 'var 2 vraḥ rājavināyaka dina liḥ 2 saṅkrānta liḥ 2 neḥ duk cval saṃ
{22} nu vraḥ mūlaxxxxx khnap seḥ xxxxx dixxxxx liḥ 10 nā vraḥ śakti cval varṣā madhyamavarṣā cuñ varṣā sme je 2 khñuṃ ta paṃre thve caṃnāṃ
{23} kalpanā xxx loñ sūkta xxxxx saṃ teṅ saśri loñ bhimāra saṃ teṅ bhadra loñ so loñ xxx loñ datta
{24} loñ suk loñ xxx loñ vleṅ xxx kvan cās teṅ vraḥ teṅ dhan teṅ ti teṅ dā ph'van teṅ si teṅ pāxxxxx sthāxxx
{25} teṅ sān kvan loñ 'ānuja teṅ xxx teṅ rāvada teṅ pān si vāra vot saṃ tai kaṃvi kvan tai bhāgya si xxx si vāra khcya
{26} xxxxx si svasti si xxxxn vot saṃ tai khdiṅ ñāt kvan si śrava si sthirabhāgya saṃ tai raṃcyak kvan xxxxx
{27} xxxxx saṃ tai sau khmer kvan tai 'cas tai sulabha kvan tai kaṃvṛk tai kaṃvi tai vija xxxxx
{28} xxxxx va si xxxxx kvan tai kansuk tai svasti tai kaṃput tai kṣemā tai jiva tai kansoṃ kvan si xxx tai xxx
{29} xxxxx saṃ tai xxx kvan tai kansuk tai kansān si śreṣṭha si lāxxx si xxxxt vlac si teṃ xxxxx tai caxxx kvan
{30} xxxxxdrāva sun tai kaṃvot thṅās kvan tai padmā tai kantāl tai phgaṅ khnap 'seḥ loñ xxxxā teṅ xxxtal.

[quote name='Leeporter' date='Jan 21 2012, 12:25 PM' post='4982181']


It's the same story I read, except that in my version there were 4 brothers:

- Prince Fa Issan
- Prince Fa Daad
- Prince Fa Soong
- Prince Fa Yang

But in this version, there were only 2 princes: Fa Daad and his brother Soong Yang.

What I read is that these (2 of 4) princes were Kun Tien's son with his Mon wife.

Do you think it is possible that Hun Tien of Funan in Chaiya and Praya Thaen, the legend in Boon Bung Fai of Isaan were the same person?

I suspect that Hun Tien was Kun "Thaen" the legend, but I still can't find no link.

Oh, it's good to know that the indian name of Fa Daad was Aditaya Raja and his brother was Isuraya, very interesting.

BTW, we know for sure that these Fa Daad Soon Yang are related to Mon, but do you think these names are Mon, Tai or Khmer?

In Thai, Fa = sky
Daad = sunlight
Soong = high
Yang = ??

Fa Daad reflects the name Adithaya or the sun god. I guess.

PS> I just used voice pronounciation in google translation to read the word 混填 which is said to be Hun-Tien and you know what, it doesn't sound like Hun-Tien to me, it sound more like "Khon-Tien"



Hun tien = Khun thaen is very interesting theory lol

There is another source which states a legend that these Prines came from Nong Haan. Anyway, the other interesting aspect of the story is phraya Khom. was he a Khmer? No. This part of the legend is very similar with the legend of the collapse of Yonok. The region everything is set in is in northern/ northeast Thailand. Not sure if Sri vijaya played a part in it.

As for the language, it is definitely 100% Tai origin. It just goes to show, the Tai were around in the region much earlier than those silly theories about nanchao lol

Oh and Yaang is the original Tai word for walk/move

Dong Son Bronze Drum at Nakorn Sri Dhammaraj and Chaiya

Tai connection?
http://www.thailandmuseum.com/nakhon_si_th...rat/hilight.htm
http://www.thailandmuseum.com/chaiya/hilight.htm

Yes, that "Frog" drum is a signature of Tai.

Anywhere you found Tai, you will find that frog on the drum.

Frog drum of Tai in Nakorn Sridhamrath, southern Thailand


Frog drum of Tai in Mookdahan, northeastern Thailand


Big Frog Drum of Tai Zhuang, China.



The Frog


Logo of Musuem Siam is the "frog"


It shows that a group pf Tai was in southern Thailand at least 2,000 - 3,000 years ago.

Have you tried letting google translation pronounce 混填 ?

Does it sound like "Hun" or "Khun" to you?

Those bastard French historians really good in distorting history.

From the Chinese pronounciation, I am almost certain that he was Khun Taen or Praya Taen in the legend.

I think you guys kinda went over board with this.

Đông Sơn culture spread as far south as Indonesia and as far west as Myanmar, and even into Hunan and Sichuan.

This could have been due to trading or a spread of culture. It doesn't necessarily mean the same people were in all those places.

Besides, Dongson drums of each region are different in style, though they look similar to naked eyes.

The one LoveIsAllAround posted is actually one from Vietnam, most drums of that style are from Vietnam, it's the most common style found in the low-land of Vietnam.
https://www.google.com/search?ix=hcb&q=...239&bih=783

I think the Dongson drums commonly found in Thailand look more like this



http://www.visit-chiang-mai-online.com/rain-drums.html

In Myanmar
http://www.seasite.niu.edu/burmese/cooler/...1/Chapter_1.htm

This style is more similar to the high land style in Vietnam and the one of the Zhuang people


Here are all the Dongson sites in Southeast Asia. You can't possibly say Thai people were in all those places 2000 years ago

As for the frogs, I'm not sure why they're on the drums, but Vietnamese have a legend like this:

Once upon a time, the earth faced a long drought. Many living things withered and died. All animals were in thirst, but they didn't know what to do except lying on the ground, sticking their tongue out, waiting do die. Only the Toad is brave enough to set out a journey to heaven to demand the Gods Emperor to make rain. On the journey he met Crab, Tiger, Bee, Bear, Fox...Long story but in short, they all joined the Toad. When they arrived at heaven, the Emperor refused to meet them so he let the God of Thunder greet them. The God of Thunder scorned upon them and attacked them and long a messy battle occurred...but in short in the end, these animal scared the Emperor so he had to give in to their demands. The toad asked the emperor what if there's another drought in the future, should they come to Heaven again. The Emperor was terrified and said, "No you don't need to come up here. From now on, whenever you want rain, just grind your teeth and I'll hear it."

Since then, whenever toads grind their teeth, the sky will rain. So Vietnamese consider toads an omen of rain. They also have saying that, "The toad is the uncle of Heavenly God"


Frogs seem to have many symbols in ancient cultures too. It's not an exclusive trademark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frogs_in_popular_culture

Egyptian mythology

To the Egyptians, the frog was a symbol of life and fertility, since millions of them were born after the annual inundation of the Nile, which brought fertility to the otherwise barren lands. Consequently, in Egyptian mythology, there began to be a frog-goddess, who represented fertility, named Heget (also Heqet, Heket), meaning frog. Heget was usually depicted as a frog, or a woman with a frog's head, or more rarely as a frog on the end of a phallus to explicitly indicate her association with fertility
The Ogdoad are the eight deities worshipped in Hermopolis. They were arranged in four male-female pairs, with the males associated with frogs, and the females with snakes
Hapy, was a deification of the annual flood of the Nile River, in Egyptian mythology, which deposited rich silt on the banks, allowing the Egyptians to grow crops. In Lower Egypt, he was adorned with papyrus plants, and attended by frogs, present in the region, and symbols of it.
The Biblical plague of frogs sent to curse ancient Egypt, like the nature of the other plagues, was intended to show the sovereignty of the God of Moses over the gods of Egypt.

Ancient Greece and Rome
A frog being eaten by King Stork, an illustration by Milo Winter in a 1919 Aesop anthology
The Greeks and Romans associated frogs with fertility and harmony, and with licentiousness in association with Aphrodite.
The combat between the Frogs and the Mice (Batrachomyomachia) was a mock epic, commonly attributed to Homer.
The Frogs Who Desired a King is a fable, attributed to Aesop. The Frogs prayed to Zeus asking for a King. Zeus set up a log to be their monarch. The Frogs protested they wanted a fierce and terrible king, not a mere figurehead. So Zeus sent them a Stork to be their king. The new king hunted and devoured his subjects (as many human kings also do).
The Frogs is a comic play by Aristophanes. The choir of frogs sings the famous line: "Brekekekex koax koax."

Ancient China
The frog represents the lunar yin, and the Frog spirit Ch'ing-Wa Sheng is associated with healing and good fortune in business, although a frog in a well is symbolic of a person lacking in understanding and vision.

Indochina
To Vietnamese people, toad is the uncle of the Sky. According to a Vietnamese ancient story, whenever toads grind their teeth, it is going to rain.

Scotland
In Scotland the frog is seen as an item of luck. Households often keep stone frogs in their gardens and they are often given as house warming presents. The associations are believed to date back to Pictish times.

South America
Moche Toad, 200 A.D. Larco Museum Collection, Lima, Peru.
The Moche people of ancient Peru worshipped animals and often depicted toads in their art.

East Lancashire
In East Lancashire the frog is also seen as an item of luck (as in the Scottish entry above). In this region ornamental frogs are often given as wedding presents, and in addition are seen as an aid to fertility and virility. This association is believed to date back to medieval times.

Thank you for sharing another fairytale and a wonderful once upon a time stories.

Wow your frog story is almost 100% the same as us.. and I remember that he went to meet Preah Prom (Hindu-god who have four faces and he the one who created living on earth)..
it surprise me that we got the same story !!! Anyways thank you so much for sharing us here..

I remember that 6 month ago in Phnom Penh there is a German archeological who study about SEA civilization he also mention about the drum and if I am not mistaken something more related to Vietnamese...

damn, this khmer kid has no dignity. licking Lao @$$, Indonesian @$$, and now Viet @$$. You make my day.

Yes! Because you can't accepted the truth.. Because whenever u did it you feel like licking other people @$$! And I understand about it!

I only accept the truth, not fake history 'Khmer Empire' LOL You khmer were slaves, didn't create Khom civilzation. Khom slaves called themselves 'Khnyom', this word still has been using today, meaning 'I'. LOL Maybe 'Khmer' came from 'Khnyom'. who knows?

yes, Jayavarman = Chaiyavarman

jaya and Chaiya are same word

जय jaya m. victory
ชย jaya ชัย ไชย

also same as Chaiyo!!! ไชโย!!! Victory!!!

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The actual follow up witnesses all the give back from astro manufacture Isaac Clarke who may have gotten punch bang inside one other strange region referred to as your Sprawl. Isaac should at this moment cope with this kind of cutting edge influx associated with aliens. All the video game as a result end up unveiled on the 25th of The month of january the united states in addition to 28th in Jan throughout the uk. Useless Space or room some will probably be reduced option and will are provided made available by using Gone Place: Removal being a Playstation 3 or xbox Transfer sport subject. couple of. The particular Elder Scrolls Sixth v: Skyrim: Bethesda is usually guaranteeing a fresh serp with this recent payment belonging to the recreation. The actual story collection to do this sequel looks a continuation for the recent set all of which need gamers trying to play typically the job of your survive dragonborn in the ethnic background for them to save human being with the control on the dragons. All of us could not validate during this period in cases where this unique rpg chain shall be compatible with your PS3 Go. 3. Deus Ex: Person's Emerging trend: The following RGP match will be providing a hit pursuing the fewer nicely obtained prequel. Deus Old flame: Individual Trend companies round some cybernetically augmented boyfriend Adam Jensen exactly who struggles to protect against many other androidy designs inside of a various land conspiracy theory. The game play is definitely scheduled to generally be launched around June 20114. LittleBigPlanet a couple of: is actually a bigger picture platformer video gaming produced during Economy is shown 2011 in addition to began as a result of Multimedia Molecule. This unique most recently released sequel inside compilation of the overall game centres for the capability of individuals to build degrees together with minuscule game. LittleBigPlanet two options several brand new artistic devices and it's a XBOX Step similar belief gameplay. 5. Killzone 3: Killzone 3 may be a first of all someone present shooter video game to be available on the particular 22nd about Feb . 2011. The video game is definitely put together by Guerrilla Online games in addition to Freezer Interactive in addition to Ps3 includes tested that you'll click the floor operating with this 1. Will be possible to make sure you execute Killzone 3 with a three-dimensional TELEVISION using a PLAYSTATION 3 250GB Move controller. 6. Notorious a pair of: Notorious step 2 is manufactured by Sucker Boxing techinque Productions meant for Nintendo wii. The video game may be a sequel towards the preceding titles introduced last season and also practices all the functions from Infamous. Famous couple of centres close to Cole MacGrath along with this fights while using the Militia as well as the Monster from a latest destination known as Unique Marais. Popular two is really a PS3 Progress similar belief sport because of possibly be introduced on 2011. 7. Uncharted 3: Thirdly installment in this a line last individual present shooter video gaming and focuses on Nathan Drakes' seek a lost area "Atlantis with the Sands" not to mention their combat just for your survival. You'll be able to make sure you have fun this particular confidential XBOX heading throughout three-dimensional. Adventure could characteristic 2 multiplayer ways: co-op and additionally competing and many latest locations. The game might guidance PlayStation's PS3 SLIM Switch controller. 8. SOCOM 5: SOCOM 3 is mostly a 3 rd individual player with the dice video gaming personal for the Ps3 gry system. SOCOM several like the prequel will likely be directed at on the internet multiplayer participate in nevertheless different from past show there's the intro of any particular player form. Individuals can be contributing some sort of all 5 mankind distinctive NATO allows group to make sure you recover management on the worlds' crucial streams on the hands and wrists associated with a progressive affiliate marketer leaning regarding spoiling your world wide overall economy. SOCOM check out works together with your PLAYSTATION 3 SLIM Progress controller and even appointed to generally be issued on the 1st district involving 2011. 9. Monster Age group only two: Monster Get older some is really a Purpose Take up Recreation together with follow up with the 09 activity Reklama internetowa belonging to the yr. Players should have fun with typically the job from Hawke, any refuge whom springs up to the status associated with importance on the planet involving Dragon Era. The action is actually developed by BioWare and also produced simply by Electronic digital Disciplines. Dragon Get older two is normally reserved regarding release on March 2011 together with best with a PLAYSTATION 3 Shift controller. 10 Muscle mass fast Appearance 3: Game enthusiasts is going to Pozycjonowanie strony expect you'll have fun with the actual factor from Commander Shepard, a good Connections Water tasked through using the globe backside from your possession associated with aliens in which are curved upon wiping outside the total people. The game play is actually manufactured by BioWare and you will be presented during the last three months in 2011. Bulk Outcome 3 holds PLAYSTATION 3 Proceed. 2011 can be encouraging to be a vibrant year or so for those PLAYSTATION 3 250GB owners. If you happen to imagined 2009 was basically very good, such predicted PS3 SLIM Tanie pozycjonowanie game titles usually are guaranteed to put your rod even more bigger. These kind of inside our opinion are classified as the top ten PS activities to get on the check with 2011.
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