What is Discrimination

Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership in a certain group or category. Discrimination can happen between race, nation, colour of skin, religion, culture, wealth and sex. Basicly any factor where a person can the idea they are above others. There are different types of discrimination, like:

• Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination.
• Sexism, also known as gender discrimination or sex discrimination, is the belief that a characteristic inherent in one's sex necessarily adversely affects one's ability even though that characteristic does not necessarily have that effect.

Discrimination is used by governments and religions to excuse systemic and systematic oppression and human rights abuses. Discrimination is learned and not natural. Mostly racism is formed in someone, because of the xenophobia made by the media or what someone has experienced.

In the 19th century, many scientists subscribed to the simple belief that human populations are divided into separate races. This was often used to justify the belief that some races were inferior to others, and that differential treatment was consequently justified. But today we live in the year of 2012 and racism is still strongly present, even in this forum.

How do racists rationalize their behaviour?

1. There is no such thing as discrimination, i am just giving my opinion and using my right to freedom of speech!

They are right about the second part. They are giving an opinion and they are using their right to freedom of speech, but their speech and opinion is discriminating.

2. I am not attacking you, but what you stand for

We here it a lot in this forum too: I don't hate the followers of that religion, i just hate the religion.
They say they are not out for the man, but criticize or hate a certain philosophy or idealogy of someone else. Then it is okay, because you don't attack the person right on. Basicly, they are also saying you are fu-king stupid, because:

A religion or philosophy is your way of life, it is everything you belief in, the reason of your existence and what leads your life. So if they attack your way of life, they attack your life and they attack you.

It is like indirectly saying they hate you.
It is directly saying they hate your way of life, you and that you are stupid

3. Why are you getting upset by that word, it has a normal meaning?

In discrimination people use lots of derogatory words. Those words could have had a normal meaning. But because that word came with a bad message and a bad tone, it became derogatory. Simple words are used to dehumanize and will offend the target. People who use derogatory terms know it harms the other, but justify it by calling them a douche too and asking them why they are so upset, it is just a normal word?

example 1:

The N-word is one of those words. Niger used to mean god in egypt. But then the Romans used Niger to refer to black people, because the Nubians were black. After the downfall of the roman empire, the word niger kept its meaning, namely the indication something is black. At the time of slavery in America, the n-word became very offensive. It harmed the black society, because they were looked upon as something minor by the white society. Even the christians, kept their black brothers in seperate ''less'' holy houses. The KKK still wants this today. You can still see the bad tone of the word in some of the jokes the racists make, like: “Q: What do you call a N*gga on a bike? A: A thief.”

example 2:

An example from this forum, where chutzpah is clearly being racist. You see this malaysian woman calling me Indon everywhere.

There are lots of tensions between Malaysia and Indonesia, so some hate eachother. Indonesians like to refer to themselves as Indo, while Malaysians kept saying Indon. While indon is seen as the correct abbrevation for Indonesia for some countries (as you can see in some dictionaries), the continuous use by Malaysians together with an offensive tone made Indon derogatory for the Indonesians(which you can also see in some other dictionaries.

Here is an article which tells you the Malaysian government calls to its people not to use the word Indon anymore and where its use became forbidden by media. http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011/02...-headlines.html
A topic in the Malaysian forum, where Malay and Indo forummers debate. Both sides accept it is derogatory. http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...=indon&st=0

Because Chutzpah is Malay, she should be aware of the fact that Indonesians are offended by it. Still she keeps using it. She uses articles where the word indon is used in Malaysian newspapers, but ignored those articles were from before the ban and that Indonesians were spoken off like they were slaves.

4. they do it, so i can do it too

One of the most childish defenses there is. They use derogatory terms, so we can do it too! Notice that the discriminator sees ''they'' as the whole group, while in fact it was just a small portion of the group which did a certain thing.

For example:

Some Indonesians started to refer to Malaysia as in Malingsia, which means thief country. The word Cina became offensive to Indonesian Chinese, because just like the word Indon, it was used with bad context. So the word also became taboo. Nowadays tiongkok or tionghoa is used to refer to the Chinese community. Even though slowly Cina becomes more acceptable again among its youth, because of the uprise of China. Chutzpah again made a topic about this on the Indonesian forum, to show Indonesians can discriminate too, so she can justify her discriminating behaviour. Not that in this topic (http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=265091&st=0), she claims the Indonesians deny that the word Cina isnt offensive there, but none of the Indonesians ever said such a thing.

5. we cant be racist, because you and my nation origin from the same race

Then it could be technically true that you are not a racist, but you still discriminate, by nation or culture.

6. isolationism, protectionism

A isolated or protectionist country has a xenophobic government. It wants to protect itself against stronger and wealthier countries, who have an unfair advantage. So outsiders have to deal with extra costs or rules, to make it more balanced. Is this really discrimination? some say it is, some say it isn't.

Hypocrite and ignorant.

People who discriminate are mostly very hypocrite and ignorant. They discriminate others, but they will yell racist at you when you say something offensive, be it racist or not. People who discriminate, base their facts on a small part of that whole group. They saw one person blow themselves up, so everyone of that group must be a dangerous terrorist. One person or one article out of the newspaper is a false representation of a group and statistically unjust. For example:

Chutzpah is a Christian and christians learn to love their neighbour, be tolerant and not to lie. Yet she calls other names, defies the rules of her own lord, despises other religions, lies and is hypocrite non-stop. Can i then say that all Christians are hypocritical evil lieing and ignorant humans? No, i can't. Well i can, like i just did, but that will be a false representation of the Christians. Not all of them are like that, in fact, most aren't and luckily still practice their preachings.

Deindividuation, bullies and instigators.

Deindividuation is a concept in social psychology that is generally thought of as the loosening of self-awareness in groups and on the internet, although this is a matter of contention. This is because they feel more anonymous. This is why mobs of people or internet bullies easily make hurtful and evil decisions, because they feel more anonymous. This is worrying, because it shows humans are evil in nature.

Instigators have no problems to be evil or stir up problems, without being anonymous. Aslong they feel protected, may it be by bodyguards or by anonymousity. They show one or more signs from above, to rationalize their behaviour, but they are out to create hatred. They can be aware of it or be stupidly ignorant about it. But they are damaging the world as it is, with more hatred.

Dear readers, let me make one thing very very clear. The word CINA which is offensive is still very much in use. If you happened to be in Jakarta and watch the TVRI or any number of their mediocre TV stations there, you will note that the word CINA is in fact an 'official' Indon term when refer to Chinese. This offensive term is also still in use in all the printed media in Indonesia as well. This Indon poster is lying and twisting the truth by saying it is no longer in use! He has no shame.

As for the term Indon, this term has been long in existence and widely used in both Malaysia and Singapore even today. Only some Indons object to this term due to the high crime rate perpetrated by the illegal Indons in Malaysia, and the large number of Indon maids which made it into the news in recent years. The Indon embassy in Kuala Lumpur asked that the term not be used. But why should we stop using a term which they did not find offensive before? It has no negative connotation except amongst the small minded Indons and DEL is one of this Indon chihuahua. There is nothing offensive nor racial about the term INDON. How ridiculous!

As I have pointed out in the thread on this topic sometime ago. The term INDON is also used by many Indons here in AF with hardly a squeal from this DEL, we know how impartial and fair he is don't we? Yet the word CINA is still being used in official capacity. How typical, accusing others of the very thing they do! What hypocrite. Racism as a topic?

In fact his assertion is just another Swiss cheese argument much like his posting on Islam.

Perhaps this Indon DEL should clean up his own putrid backyard before lecturing us on racial discrimination.

INDONESIA RACISM & XENOPHOBIA NEWS LIVE FEED
LATEST INDONESIA RACISM & XENOPHOBIA NEWS FROM WORLD NEWS REPORT
http://world.einnews.com/news/indonesia-racism-xenophobia

INDONESIA: Discrimination against ethnic Chinese
http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/22266

Here we can see again how a racist use the 3 and 4 excuses to rationalize her discriminating behaviour again. She tells us it is okay to use derogatory terms, because some others from my country does it too. Saying it is just normal.

Again she twists our words. Where did Indonesians ever deny there is racism in Indonesia? I never denied it. Most Indonesians know their own government is corrupt and dislike their wealthy elite for stealing tax money. When there is on the news that another official has been found corrupt, we laugh it away, because it is old news and we all knew that, hoping for a time of change. But Chutzpah comes here on AF to instigate and show all the bad sides (none good) of the nations and religions. Not only Indonesia, she likes to bash all countries. Corruption and racism is still a problem in Indonesia and it needs to be fixxed, but this problem is everywhere in the world, so stop trying to characterize Indonesia as something corrupt and racist. It is everywhere.

The Indonesian, Malaysian and Singaporean governments come to terms that Indon and Malingsia are derogatory and they forbid the use of it in the media. So why use it if it has been acknowledged by all governments as being derogatory. Why do you refuse to read the articles and the topics about it. You will clearly see it is an issue and people are offended by it.

Indonesians dont use the word indon to refer to themselves in this forum. The only time it was used, is in reply to you with a sarcastic tone, so a simple soul like you understands it.

You say Indon isnt offensive to Indonesians, yet you say Cina is offensive to Chinese Indonesians. Both have just one letter difference. Both are indeed offensive to certain people. But you defend that you can use Indon, while saying cina is derogatory. It is the same scenario, but you see difference in it, so you can keep offending and make others guilty.

Anyways, thanks. You have proved me right!




paki, derogatory term. Used as a derogatory term directed towards South Asians (and sometimes Middle Eastern people)

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...0&start=140 Malaysian topic Malaysian costumes where she needed to be racial offensive.



Again, someone says she is racist and she starts to talk about his country and that he needs to look at his own problems. Again generalizing a problem as if it happens everywhere there. Also she never admits there is something wrong with her religion or ethnic background? No, they are perfect. Ignorant to yourself and only criticizing others? ignorant and hypocrite.

Yawn......

In this forum (asiafinest), I learned (in the very first time) many anti-white racist terms. Before I came here, I didn't know that Asian people hate white people so much! And Asian people in this forum don't distinguish between white-Americans, western Europeans, eastern Europeans, SE Europeans, Russians etc. They hate all withe people. A Chinese guy in the Korean chat called me "white supremacist" for no reason. I was shocked! I can't understand all this?!?!

P.S. I have Asian colleges and I hope to work with them for a long time. I never discuss with them racial issues. Such discussions are not appropriate among members of the scientific community.

Balkan, unfortunately racism exists on every level and in every race. It is even institutionalized in countries like Malaysia and Indonesia. Asians in general do not hate whites, similarly it would also be an error to say that whites hate Asians.

Just read this thread from the Indon-chat and see how racist some of the Indon posters are against their ethnic Chinese in this thread:
Indonesian people - Why hate Chinese ?, Ethnic tensions
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3368

That aside, let me show just how racist and dishonest DEL is. He C&P only portion of my reply to suit his purpose. How shameless. That portion was taken from this thread [ http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...0596&st=300 ] it started with post #320 by a disgruntled racist who was previously banned and came back under another guise - datukillscrap. Our full exchanges where he started the first assault can be read from the link provided. Here is my full reply to datukillscrap false accusation:

Read datukillscrap first assault in the Phil-chat and what he said about the HKG Chinese and Chinese in general by clicking the link in my reply. This dishonest DEL purposely left out portion of my reply containing the link to the Phil-chat because it will expose his lies. I let the readers to draw their own conclusion if my replies in the Phil and Indon chats are racist.

Once again this DEL is caught lying. Much like his toxic mistress Tangawizi, these trolls employ half truths or outright lies in order to shove their sick and warped idea down our throat. Truth and honesty just don't feature much in their life.

Firstly: Define lying please.

You just reply to one thing, while the others you dont even defend. You know you are racist and when readers will read those links, they will come to the same conclusion. Also, very typical defense of an instigator. Yell at the people who disagree to you that they lie, are ignorant and racist. You talk like you think you are talking to a crowd and not to the person itself, like you think you are above him. You tell them to read something by themselves, without showing your proof by yourself. Then you attack with all these accusations, without facts.

The facts stay like this

• Official statements from the Indo, Malaysian and Singaporean government that ''Indon'' is derogatory.
• Thousands of statements and/or articles that clearly show that people are offended and hurt by it.
• You keep using derogatory terms, even though you are aware of above facts.
• When you use the derogatory terms, it goes coupled with a dehumanizing and offending tone.

How can you justify your behaviour? Because they do it, you can do it too? How responsible for your children. How Christian is that?

You probably lie that you are Christian. Because you can't walk in to a church, knowing that your god hates you, pretending to be a good Christian, but piss on your lord words outside of the church. You are a disgrace to the groups you represent.



Yeah, i noticed it too. I notice that lots of Asians in Asia almost idolize the white man, but the Asians who live in the West, dislike the culture. They will share it with other foreigners, but not with the white. Maybe it is the realisation that it isn't much better in the West and that the Wests culture is too individual for them, but they were raised differently. Maybe that gives space to anti-colonial sentiments or anti-capitalism. Or just maybe they are mad their girls are taken by white man?:P But i notice that with the Asians who haven't been outside much out of that Western country. The ones that did, will appreciate the pros and cons from both countries.

It's as if she's making an apt description of her own pathological condition -- her addiction to discriminatory behavior and diatribe against indigenous Malays and Indonesian (basically, all muslims) lead her to accuse others of mistruth and dishonesty when they call her out as an Islamophobe and question her base motives.

Can Chutzpah please kindly rationalize her pathological condition?

Which part of our criticism of your persistent attack on the Koran and general Islamophobia is sick and warped?





Balkan, what Chutzpah fails to mention is how chinese elites in Malaysia and Indonesia, their tycoons and wannabees have aided and abetted the ruling elites in those two countries with corruption and bribery to gain their riches at the expense of indigenous malays/indos and 'less connected' chinese folks, and failed to build a leadership that is visionary based on meritocracy like in Singapore's own leadership.

Chutzpah represents the older 'failed' generation of chinese supremacists who are incapable of seeing beyond their own riches and material comfort. She once boasted about how she trots in her 6 inch Louboutins and scoffed at how i can't afford that. Says alot about her just from that one silly boast alone...

Unable to explain the failure of chinese leaderships in Malaysia and Indonesia, Chutzpah is only interested in festering the ethnic tensions and divide through religious differences. She is part of the problem in Malaysia, not part of the solution.

Over the months her agenda became quite clear. And what was fueling her discriminatory behavior (like persisting in calling Indonesians the derogatory term "Indon" as a tit-for-tat for the term "Cina" when non-Indo forummers like me and Del have also advised her abt the racist perception of the term) was her own religion, Catholicism.

While she aggressively shines a light at her rival faith, Islam, she could not bear with anyone shining a light at the glaring failures in her own faith, insisting that these are bad apples within the Catholic faith and has nothing to do with the religion.

She, as a fundamentalist Catholic, represents the other side of the coin of Islamic fundamentalism.

If she is sincere in her mission to highlight the ethnic tensions in our societies, she should take up the gauntlet of campaigning for a public sphere and leadership that is free of religious and ethnic divides.

Instead she chooses to come to a forum such as this to display her anti-Islam and Islamophobia. Why?

Because her intention ultimately stems from a fear of her co-citizens who are Malays/Indonesians. A fear that as a minority chinese, she and her children's future are threatened by these Malays/Indonesians who practise a rival faith that is Islam.

Her words and behavior are originated from this fear, and it has found a voice through websites that have a larger political agenda against islamic oil states, like Jihadwatch.

If you ask me, she is an antagonist and she offers NOTHING to the cause of an Islamic Awakening, as long as her mind is steeped in fear and hatred.

If her mind is opened to the cause of Islamic Awakening, she ought to look at changing her own views about her own faith and understand that spiritual awakening comes to everyone, irregardless of the differences in their Gods or their rituals.

She could assist in helping every muslim and christian alike on this forum to gain an insight to their relationship with God and Allah and come to an inner peace with themselves and others around them.

With spiritual peace, everyone can regain a foothold in their faith without answering the calls of their crazy extremist mullahs or conservative popes to hate and wrought revenge.

Instead, she keeps on coming here to ape the actions of crazy mullahs and her conservative pope :

(i) by aggressively tearing apart her rival faith Islam
(ii) by aggressive tearing apart her detractors like me, DEL and Avisitor with ad hominems and now calling for fatuous fatwas, and
(iii) by maintaining an 'Omerta' (mafia silence) over her own Catholic Church's scandals and accusing me of spreading half-lies and half-truths about her church and her motives.

If I were a muslim and had to come to any conclusion about the state of my faith today, and I come face-to-face with a co-citizen like Chutzpah or elleXO who considers me as a follower of a cancer cult, I would say an aggressive Christian/Zionist-inspired Crusade isn't going to make me comfortable in my own skin as a muslim. I would maintain my own 'omerta' against fundamental islam and let the fuglies (like Osama Bin Laden or the PAS mullahs) do the dirty fight with Christianity and their followers, be they chinese or whatever ethnic group. It's a human reaction, albeit unenlightened.

However, if Chutzpah as my co-citizen tells me that faith should remain in the private sphere and we should encourage the flourishing of secularism and democratic machinery into the public sphere, I would respect that a whole lot more, and not view her as a threat to my slice of the economic pie.

An Islamic Awakening can come if we take steps towards this end of restraining religion and all its execution in the private realm. You see, it's all about perception, isn't it? I am not even a Muslim and yet we can sense their mental calculations when they are faced with the religious far-right like chutzpah and the propaganda from the Jihadwatch.org founders.

I am against Sharia Laws being imposed on the public sphere. But i don't go around toting anti-Muhammed propaganda just to make that point. It revulses the average muslim and kills all dialogue. However, I do stress to my muslim friends and colleagues how important it is that an equitable access to the economic pie depends on a level playing field that is based on democracy, meritocracy and genuine dialogue of peace. And not from a religious or ethnic privilege that is ongoing in Malaysia.

Unfortunately, Balkan, as a Singaporean chinese myself, I am disgusted by a fellow chinese like Chutzpah who hides behind the cloak of religiosity her chinese supremacism.

But I am sure Chutzpah suffers the condition of all humans. Since you are studying Buddhism as part of your PhD, we can recognize that she has her own cravings and aversions to deal with and this extends to the practice of her own faith/chinese supremacism.

She craves for the goodness of her own faith to be revealed and celebrated while acting on her aversions (to fear of loss of political/material dominance?) to aggressively tear apart a rival faith that interferes with the expansion of her faith and its followers.

I hope her Pope's latest exhortation to the flock to carry out 'Silent contemplation' will make her understand that sometimes, SILENCE is the only thing that needs to be maintained for people to understand and come to peace and harmony with one another. Not 'Omerta' but 'Contemplative Silence' out of which rightful actions and words can come that leads to peace and dialogue.

Read that Pope's message here.



P/S - My fellow meditators said that we could perhaps start by recognizing that there are no such things are "child abusers" nor "terrorists" but causes and conditions that lead to committing such an act.

We don't mean to excuse this behaviour or imply that it is anything other than heinous. Just that there is no such thing as an "essence of child abuser" nor "terrorist", no self of a child abuser or terrorist that is different to you or me. What is different is their kamma and kamma is constantly changing just like everything else.

So there is nothing really there to pin our fear and hate onto. The hate or lack of compassion is ours and ours alone.

Essentially, the conflict we face with the rise of violence in the Islamic world cannot not be resolved through a propaganda that their faith and the Koran is the originator of the violence. There are initiatives and entities that are funding the Islamic Reform for Conflict and Peace in the muslim world. An ex-colleague of mine even sent me a link to this documentary film "The Imam and the Pastor" as a resource for workshops and training programs exploring themes of religious peacebuilding and inter-group reconciliation.

http://www.usip.org/publications/manual-fa...-reconciliation

I would urge Chutzpah and ElleXO as chinese non-muslims to research such initiatives on Google and be part of this reform, rather than be part of the propaganda for anti-Islam. Study initiatives like this one The Imam and the Pastor in Nigeria. The likes of Robert Spencers live in a society where they force the issue of the Israeli nationhood survival on their government for it is back-to-back with american oil interest in the middle east. This picture below says it all..



We, living in Southeast Asia, need not be a pawn in this political chess-game. We have to continue living with the muslim world in Southeast Asia, and it would be the wiser choice to be part of the reform for Islam and Christianity evangelism/catholicism, rather than be part of this divide-and-rule propaganda for the domination of muslim interests.

Which white men? Whose culture?
Western Europeans despise SE Europeans. They come to my country only for cheap alcohol and cheap sex (same reason why they go to Thailand).
In my country some people consider me for a wealthy man, but if go to Japan, with my income, I will be poorer than every Japanese waste collector.

BTW, some Syrians are very white:

White men for Asians is basically anyone white or lightly tanned. I am brown, but in Asia they say i am white. :/
Most of the models in Asia are white. Just a very small percentage of the models are brown. It is the colour they idolize, not the western culture.

The culture i talked about was the Western culture. The western culture is very individual, every man for himself. Family and friends comes after work and yourself.
Most Asian cultures are very collective. Family and friends are very important. Asians that didnt had school in Europe, mostly stay together and stay in the family business.

I doubt tourists only come to your country for sex and alcohol. Perhaps your country needs to promote more. Without googling i cant recall any place there that looks beautiful.

And about that guy that called you a white supremecist. It is quite easy to yell in the anonymous internet.

Btw, can i ask what you do at school?

DEL, I don't think all Asians idolise White men.... what they idolize is their spending power, how they represent access to greater wealth and better status in society.

Most folk-beliefs that being fairer skinned is a sign of privileged life, you are not working under the hot sun getting darker skinned. This folk-belief applies from the Indian sub-continent all the way thru Africa and South America. And you can these expensive skin whitening creams now from the French, American and Japanese cosmetic houses all cashing in on this bias for fair skin.

A spanish colleague who hires Moldavians for his IT operation said that his colleagues from Moldavia claimed that Moldavia is the biggest exporter of prostitutes in Europe right now. It seems that for many eastern europeans, prostitution is an easy way to earn quick bucks. I guess maybe Balkan's Yugoslavia is not imune from this condition.

And finally, there are all kinds of "supremacists" out there... it's all a question of their mental state of mind. The worst has got to be the mix of racial and religious supremacists. That kind of mind state surely leads to violence and pogrom.

No doubt this is happening in some muslim quarters like the Sudan, Pakistan, Nigeria etc.. but Asians are not averse to getting themselves into a racial and religious supremacist mind state from time to time. And other continents have gone through that sort of mental state of mind too - the Mongols, Arabs and Europeans in their extermination campaigns against colony populations.

It's not shocking to see some american born chinese spouting racial slurs at his white or black co-citizens, as American is a rather racially tensed country. But they have all the right institutional mechanism to prevent an ethnic genocide. A secular constitution, independent judiciary, non-partisan army etc. But it's too disturbing to see some asians like Chutzpah and ElleXO ranting with this kind of racial and religious supremacist mind state. But to be fair to them, they are reacting to similar kind of racial/religious supremacists in the Malay establishment. Countries like Malaysia don't have the institutional mechanisms that keeps religiosity in check.. they have a secular constitution but their armies are mainly malays, the judiciary are under pressure from executive power bias.

I just hope they change their mind-set soon and get some skill sets on inter-faith dialogue instead of going on a religious crusade on the internet.

Yeah tanga, you are right. I didnt say ALL btw:P But the white skin colour is preferred in Asia, somehow. But Asians who live in Europe or the US are probably already bored with that colour and notice the white trying to get a tan like them. Thats also somehow of a rule.

The grass is always greener at the neighbours garden.
People who are white, want to be brown. People who are brown, want to be white.
People who live in cold climates, like hot weather. People who live in hot climates, like cold weather.
Ofcourse this is not 100% true, but i see that's quite often the case.

Small response at your rant above. Iran is a threat i think. Small, but it is one.

One example of the institutionalized racism in IDN is the forced use of the term Cina which is the official term for Chinese. This word is used by all printed and electronic media in IND. Even though it carries many derogatory connotations to the point that it is also refused to be used by the Japanese government. The Chinese government has also objected to the use of this derogatory term, but until today the Indon government and her people have continually ignored international objection and continue to use this very objectionable and offensive term.

It is true that some young Indon Chinese do not find it offensive because of the forced use under the long Soeharto regime during which anything Chinese was strictly forbidden. Many were born after the reign of Soeharto. The Indon Custom and Declaration form in fact put all Chinese printed materials on the same category as pornography and illegal substance until a few years ago, another example of institutionalized racism. This offensive term has become so entrenced from forced use for well over 30 plus years and it is still being used today. As usual the starter of this thread DEL an Indon of the bumi extraction will lie just to score point. It matters little that he has been caught once too often.

Below is the thread I started in the Indon chat. You will find proof and evidence that Cina is an offensive term. You will also find Indon is not an offensive term within the discussion. You will also read some racist remarks posted by some Indon members.

The term CINA (TJINA) in Indon-speak, Not offensive they say, but history shows otherwise
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=265091

Yes, it is always, always, always the Indon Chinese faults isn't it, let's ignore facts and truths, right? Much the same as the Christians and other non Muslims living under Islam. They ask for it. Such wonderful logic coming from a liar, a troll, need I say more?

Why wallow in the "Victimized" mode of thinking Chutzpah?

No one here said its the chinese fault. But it does warrant thinking why the chinese leadership hasn't been able to deal with this victimization effectively in Indonesia nor Malaysia, whereas in Singapore, it has done so.

Can you provide any insight on this? Please, I am not hating on you, just wanting a dialogue.

Readers, anyone wallowing in self loathing and perpetual lies is Tangawizi. First she blamed the Chinese (she is jeolous of their success) then she denied it. Lie, lie, lie and lie again, tsk tsk tsk...

Assuming that she is correct (good heavens!!) that the Chinese in Singapore has been able 'to deal' with the victimization mentality. Hmm... isn't Singapore almost 100% Chinese anyway? So who victimize them? See what I mean? Singapore is successful precisely because it is run and government by Chinese. Say what you like but her success can not be denied! It is a shining example of an extremely succesful Chinese city state. With no resources, not even water! Then compare it to IND and Malaysia, both with abundant resources. Like I said, fact, fact, fact. You can not beat the fact!!

This self loathing Chinese troll has told so many lies that she is not sure which is fact which is delution anymore, sad really.

Oh BTW if any of you Chinese girls like to have a pair of Louboutin, Hong Kong is the closest place for it, got a pair from Lane Crawford last month, on sale at 40% off. There is a Louboutin shop in Jakarta too, but it charges almost 30% more than Hong Kong. Besides, why spend it in a country that hates the fact that you are Chinese anyway?

the only thing your post has revealed is that you are indeed a Chinese Supremacist at heart.

There are many factors that can explain Singapore's success. And not down to a chinese dominated cabinet.

First and foremost, Singaporean founders were certainly not chinese supremacists like you, but rather western educated Fabian socialists. Their over-arching strategy was meritocracy, again not a chinese import, but rather an american influence. They were clear about the dangers of governing a multi-ethnic society in a city-state, and sought to build a level playing field where all ethnics are made to live side-by-side in harmony :

1. Housing policy where estates have to abide by quotas for the different ethnic groups
2. Education policy where schools and curriculums are secular
3. Army policy where every ethnic group are conscripted unlike in Indonesia and Malaysia where only indigenous peoples are recruited professionally

Your simple-minded look at Singapore's success in dealing with the ethnic issues betrays your mind-set again Chutzpah. You are a fearful chinese supremacist very afraid of a shrinking economic pie for your own children. I think you need to surmount this fear before you continue talking religion and inter-faith strife, because with this fear comes words and actions that lead to more conflict and misunderstanding.

You need to see a counsellor about this pathological fear. You want help?

@chutzpah

We don't argue with your arguments, we mostly argue with your behaviour.

-You keep on using the derogatory term Indon, knowing it offends people and your own government forbade it.
-You tell us we lie all the time, but we never lied. You try to make easy points with other readers by telling we lie, but we never did such a thing. You always fail to quote the post where we lied. Just simply lieing is a cheap shot. Especially while we make clear arguments. You just avoid it by lieing that we lie.
-You say you are against discrimination yourself, but discriminate, making you hypocrite.
-Very early from the start you like to call us names. Even googled up dutch curces to personally offend me.
-Your posts show that you think you are above us. Extra reason to be offended when using derogatory terms
-You say easily ALL Indonesians or ALL Malaysians are like that. Which is not true. Probably just a small group.

This hypocrite and offending behaviour of yours, is why we debate like this today. If you didn't persist in using derogatory terms, i bet we would debate normally and just agree to disagree. But i doubt you will give up your attitude, thinking you are better than us.

we:

-never denied that there isnt racism against Chinese and we all said we dont like it, no matter where it happens.
-We agree with more things than you think and i always give respect when you made a good point. You never do that.

Not that i want to defend racism, but about racism in Indonesia and Malaysia, be aware that:

-It is a form of protectionism against the mighty China. The Chinese had most of the gold and tin mines in Malaysia and most of it went to China, which wasn't good for Malaysia. They are also better workers. By limiting the Chinese, they made their balance healthier, because less money went out.
-After both countries were independent, the USA came to both countries, loaned money and build loads of buildings and infrastucture. This made both governments in debt with the USA, but also pro-capitalism. This was an extra reason to turn against Communist China. Also, the USA needed control of the high resources on both lands and control of the muslim population.
-Soekarno was a knobhead and the massacre is inexcusable.

-And i think given time, both countries will admit China is also a strong ally and relations will be improved. I worked in Hitachi Jakarta and sold heavy equipment (excavators) for mining and plantation. Most investors or foreign companies were Chinese (mostly HK) and were preferred above the Americans.

about other discussions we have:

-About catholics, is to show you are blind to your own religion. Firstly, you ignore the teaching of the bible yourself. Secondly, you deny the mistakes as wrongdoings of your religon. Me, Tanga and avisitor never said Christianity is bad in itself, just that their people can be bad. And honestly, the pope sucks. Doesn't hurt to admit that.
-About Islam. There is too many variation in the religion and you cant easily judge a whole religion, because of some bad actions. Just like we cant simplify Christianity. Most ''bad'' actions by Muslims are effected by cultural and psychological factors and unclear guidance of their leaders/quran, which can easily be abused. But history showed us Christians can be misused too. For example: Ireland. Or the Netherlands, when the Pope declared the Dutch as enemies of god and asked the Spanish to invade.
-About China. You seem to be very pro China. And i myself enjoy the fact China is growing and it makes the Western world tremble and that is has a positive effect for the economies in Asia. But i am also aware that China can be as bad as the Western world. Their regulation is too easy, which boosts their business but creates bubbles and is bad for competition. They can also be racist and deny human rights to others and their own. Singapore is a small island and easy to maintain, but can a big country like China maintain itself, without damaging others and itself? I hope to see China and Asia grow more, but i am aware things can happen.


As long as you are going to keep using derogatory terms to us, offend us and think we are inferior to you, you will lose. Your hatred makes your blind and you dont see your own behaviour.

Has anyone pointed out to this self loathing troll the very fact that most of the early Malaysian leaders were also Western educated? The one glaring fact which she tries to ignore while introducing more rubbish is that the SG Chinese play fair unlike the Indon and the Malays. And btw some of the current Indon leaders are Western educated too, then there was that hateful nasty and racist dwarf Indon accidental president Habibie, educated in Germany he was! We can always on Tangawizi for being honest and logical.

Then there is the Indon troll with his fluffy bits of gold and tin, as if Malaysia gives it China free of charge, that's news indeed! The content of his reply only confirms what everyone has known all along, how braindead and ignorant he really is.

And he lied. We don't argue with your arguments he said, whatever he meant by arguments. Really? Does he mean he never try to hector elleXO and I on the topic we post? See what I mean? He is a liar! Then there is His attempt to lie and was caught out, read my reply Post #6 above where he only copied and pasted part of what I said to score point. Now if that is not lying I am not chutzpah!

We mostly argue with your behaviour he said. Argue with someone's behaviour? No kidding! Trying to be holier than thou Indon style le! Puke I said!

as i said. it is your:

• ignorant
• stupid
• dumb
• offensive
• arrogant
• hypocrite
• disgusting
• twisting

....behaviour that started all this. No matter what argument you bring in, your behaviour is in the way. I can't take someone serious who says she fights for a better world, but does the things she herself and her religion dislikes. hypocrite and ignorant. Instead of throwing water on fires, you throw oil on it. You also barely argue, just throw with articles. If you want to change the world, change yourself first.

Hopeless.

Tonight i will pray for your children, in hope they won't become like you.

Why don't you pray for the dead Christians killed by Muslims, or pray for Christians living under Islamic rule while try to bottle up your self righteous indignation? But I it's really too much to hope for isn't it. May be you should pray that Allah might help you from having to lie all the time? Or what about pray for an urgent brain donor? You really need one if I may say so myself.

Del, this lady chutzpah needs a psychiatrist. I'll join you and pray for her poor husband too ....

Yeah, hopeless.

but what were we doing here tanga?

We knew how she would react. We knew what she was going to write. Could have guessed every word.
We knew it was hopeless. Still we typed a lot. :p

Guess we were both hoping to reach her good side of her heart. There is apparently none.

Maybe i will pray for you too Tanga, because you could suddenly meet her there :P

What are we doing here?

This forum is popular with spambots but we stayed cuz discrimination based on race, nationality, sexual orientation, gender, religion or non-religion are universal evils that should be spurned and eradicated.


It is not Moral if one does good out of punitive fear of a celestial dictator.

It is not Moral if one helps another so as to convert him/her to one’s religion.

It is emotional blackmail and it is vile.


There's been alot of emotional blackmail on this board spewed forth by minds that are strait-jacketed. I do hope they get released some day, but in the meantime, it's real freedom to be able to live in a country where such speech would be taken to task by the authorities. I dare Chutzpah to print her views in the Today Newspapers or Straits Times if she really stands by her anti-Islam propaganda.


p/s - i am also quite sad that Maja and gang left the forum, it would be such a cool thing if they returned to prove that such propaganda just doesn't work in our generation anymore.

No, Tangy! I'm not a Serbian, I'm Bulgarian. Talking about our Serbian neighbors: there was terrifying massacre, religiously and ethnically motivated, in former Yugoslavia back in the '90s. Thank God nothing like that happened in my country. During the war an American bomb hit by mistake our territory but fortunately with no human victims.


For most Bulgarians and Serbians family and friends are definitely more important than work. And the Greeks... yeah, now everybody knows that Greek people hate to work.


Right now I'm PhD candidate. I'm just finishing my doctoral thesis in East Asian Studies. My Asian colleges are Koreans.

Only mods can get rid of them. These haters can't debate. So if debating doesn't help, only a ban can. This forum is done.



Interesting. I did International business, but specialized in Asia. Had loads of courses about Asia, but South East Asia interested me more. Did visit most East Asian countries tho.

You are right about Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria. But Hungary is more individualistic. And ofcourse the Scandinavian countries, France, Uk, Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands.
Europe is still very diverse and therefor it is hard to keep it an union. Other ''Western'' countries like the USA and Australia are very individualistic, but are more open than Europeans.

I assume you also had courses like cross cultural management and know about the culture models of Trompenaars and Hofstede.
Hofstede for example researched many cultures and ranked them under 5 aspects.
http://www.urbanministry.org/wiki/geert-ho...ural-dimensions.

Power distance - the higher it is, the bigger the hierarchy. With Malaysia and Slovakia on top.
Individualism - As explained above
Masculinity - Hungary, Japan and Slovakia seems to be quite masculine according to Hofstede
Uncertainty avoidance index- Are people direct or indirect.
Long term orientation- Do people look at the history, live by day or work for the future? Arab countries look at the past. Most Westerners live by day, So do Indonesians. But Chinese invest more in the future. Some educated Indonesians told me that they prefer Chinese women, because they look at the future. Weird enough Singapore is ranked quite low on the Hofstede model. So according to Hofstede the Singaporean live by day and look at their pasts success.

Am sure you already know about it. The Trompenaar model is quite similair.

So what are you going to do when you are done? Work in Asia?

While I know people will believe with all their heart the words that comes out of their mouths, I don't become a follower of such discrimination
The truth is usually somewhere in between the left and the right or maybe the truth is just lost upon us ...

How do people rationalize their discrimination??
I don't know ... other than that they have focused all their resources to believing what they think is the truth.
Search and you shall find .. even if it is there or not ... the warped mind creates its own world and populates it with all their voodoo, evils and boogeymen
I have seen many on the subways professing their knowledge of the truth and that they are the light to lead us from the strays

What would you have me do??
How do we teach them according to their ability to learn when they choose not to learn any other way??
Arguing with a warped mind .. only drags another mind into the muck and then another is lost to this discrimination
Cuz fight pro or con is just another way of getting wrapped into an endless battle of words

Blessed are the ignorant .. cuz they don't have to endure the constant, endless bottle of ideologies or politics or minds of delusions of grandeur.
Yeah, guess I must be ignorant as so many have called ... Om mani padme hum ... now who said that????

This is a good observation on the rise of religious fervour in Singapore..

http://yawningbread.wordpress.com/2012/02/...y-another-name/

extract : "Billy Graham, a famous evangelist, once prophesised Singapore to be the Antioch of Asia, a reference to the famous Christian city that was ravaged by the crusades. Singapore is therefore seen by the Christian Right to be at the centre of spreading Christianity in Asia."

I have no doubt that this insensitive campaign by forummers on this board against Islam is a covert part of the evangelist campaign that's so popular in Singapore right now.