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WhoAmI
Ever wondered why there are lots of Korean Lee's or Vietnamese Nguyen's? Well let me tell you an interesting story. this is one reason.

One of the Korean Lee family lines is acutally descended from the Vietnamese royal Ly family. nearly eight centuries ago, the Ly dynasty was ending and being replaced with the Tran dynasty. The Tran dynasty ordered all those who had the Ly surname from the Ly royal dynasty to change their name to Nguyen. If they did not they were killed. Prince Ly Long Tuong, in order to preserve the Ly family line, fled on boat with several hundreds of his followers northward toward China. He some how went off course and ended up in Korea where his descendants are living today! Prince Ly Long Tuong also became a general under the Korean King!! He sucessfully defeated two Mongol invasions protecting his new found home. (Incidentally, later the Tran dynasty and the hero Tran Hung Dao would also defeat three Mongol invasions back in Vietnam). Anyways, the Korean people saw him as a hero and made a statue of him on top of a horse in his honor. Because he always rode a white horse into battle he was nicknamed the "General on a White Horse". Prince Ly was also given land that became known as the Lee/Ly family farm house.

Wow. Hey does anybody know where i can see the statue? i heard its in S.Korea still i think. near seoul maybe? not sure. anybody heard of it? icon_smile.gif
CTangCG5
i know korean Yi's with english last names of Lee. anyways interesting, never heard of vietnamese royal famillies.
kpjoon
is that the pic in your sig?
lovelyfart
never knew that truth eek.gif my mom's from the Lee family.
seoul
I know that story. the descendant of Prince Ly, living in Korea, was invited at 'the foundation day of Vietnam' something before, as a national guest.
13th century, The Korean King granted the family name and some land to that vietnamese prince. his family name was 'Lee of Hwasan'. 'Hwasan' is the name of place where vietnamese prince reached Korea first by boat and also means 'the family origin' of Vietnamese prince Ly, newly in Korea. 'Hwasan' is locate at North Korea now. 'Lee of Hwasan' is very rare surname in population, about 1100-1200 people.
there are so many Lee's in Korea. but they belong to each gropus of different family origin and ancestral home. for example, Lee(of Jeonju), Lee(of Andong), Lee(of Suwon) etc. these Lee's have nothing in common with faimly origin, just a thing in common with same letter. same as Kim's, Park's, Choi's and the others of Korean family name. every groups of family origin are classified strictly. the marriage between man and woman of 'the same surname and the same family origin' is put under taboo seriously in Korea.
anyway where did you heard of that? I've never heard of the statue or Vietnamese prince's participation of the war, though some web searching. if it exist there now, it might be erected by descendants in the latest date.
another interesting thing, there is the descendant of Arabian in Korea.
WhoAmI
seoul,
Ah thanks for sharing info on the Lee surnames in Korea. so you heard about Prince Ly icon_smile.gif? Those are interesting info you mentioned. Oh where did i hear about Prince Ly becoming general and statue built? Well i read some articles about it online... but it looks like its gone now because i cant find anything on it online anymore. i should have saved a copy on my computer. An arabian in Korea? wow i didnt know that.

QUOTE
is that the pic in your sig?

lol. no i think its just a pic of a Vietnamese warrior.... though then again it look like it could be...hmmm.

QUOTE
never knew that truth eek.gif my mom's from the Lee family.

lol
lovelyfart
QUOTE (seoul @ Jan 20 2004, 11:28 AM)
there is the descendant of Arabian in Korea.

i thought Korea's only got an unitary race.
Kulong
QUOTE (lovelyfart @ Jan 22 2004, 10:58 PM)
QUOTE (seoul @ Jan 20 2004, 11:28 AM)
there is the descendant of Arabian in Korea.

i thought Korea's only got an unitary race.

Are you trying to say that Korean is a homogeneous people? If so, you're more or less correct. The modern Korean's ancestors weren't homogeneous though. According to Korean's own explanation, Korean's ancestors came from China's Shandong province, Manchuria, and mixed with the natives in the Korean pennasula.
lovelyfart
QUOTE (Kulong @ Jan 23 2004, 10:13 AM)
QUOTE (lovelyfart @ Jan 22 2004, 10:58 PM)
QUOTE (seoul @ Jan 20 2004, 11:28 AM)
there is the descendant of Arabian in Korea.

i thought Korea's only got an unitary race.

Are you trying to say that Korean is a homogeneous people? If so, you're more or less correct. The modern Korean's ancestors weren't homogeneous though. According to Korean's own explanation, Korean's ancestors came from China's Shandong province, Manchuria, and mixed with the natives in the Korean pennasula.

thanks kulong
that's it what i was trying to say. biggrin.gif
but i meant i thought that the modern koreans mixed with no different race(mean which has different color)
maybe i need to increase my vocabulary.lol
Kulong
QUOTE (lovelyfart @ Jan 23 2004, 07:19 PM)
but i meant i thought that the modern koreans mixed with no different race(mean which has different color)
maybe i need to increase my vocabulary.lol

Keep in mind that "facts" are constantly changing as new evidence is found. A good example would be that 50 years ago, scientists thought atoms were the smallest unit, but now we know it's now thanks to new evidence and scientific advancement.

With that said, according to current findings, Korean never mixed with non-Mongoloid race.
drunk_on_tea
Hey WhoamI,

Thanks for that informative message about prince Ly Long Tuong. I know that the Korean descendants of prince Ly annually return to Bac Ninh, Viet Nam in order to pay respects to their ancestors. I was pretty surprised when my mother told me about the Lys migrating to Korea and she also told me that Ly Long Tuong's brother also got lost and landed in Taiwan, thus, there are some Taiwanese with the last name Li who are actually of Vietnamese descendants.
Also, the reason why there are so many Nguyens is not only because of the Lys changing their last names but the Trans also. After the royal Tran family was overthrown by the Le dynasty (no relation to the other Ly), members of the Tran royal family also had to change their last name to Nguyen. My mother's last name is Nguyen but I found out recently that our family had to change their name to Nguyen from Tran because we were members of the Tran royal family.
DAI_VIET
I've heard of this story. My ancestors chased the Ly families. That's why they are in Korea. Hehehehehe...
toonluv
there was always some migration even if minor. there are stories of a boat of black sailors ending up in japan with some curious clues. every country has its own account and tidbits of different occurances not of general accepted knowledge and probably many other things know one is aware of, a lot of truth has been buried with the people who died and not everything was written down or documented such is the true reality and thats every nation. That is why we focus on generalizations and the majority.
drunk_on_tea
QUOTE (toonluv @ Feb 29 2004, 06:10 AM)
there was always some migration even if minor. there are stories of a boat of black sailors ending up in japan with some curious clues. every country has its own account and tidbits of different occurances not of general accepted knowledge and probably many other things know one is aware of, a lot of truth has been buried with the people who died and not everything was written down or documented such is the true reality and thats every nation. That is why we focus on generalizations and the majority.

There are perks with generalizing things but when it comes to history, that should not be the case. Why do you think we even study history and continue to study it not for its generalizations, but new things we are able to gather from what we already know. Because we tend to generalize history, we are not able to learn from it as much as we should. Generalizations is easy to be understood but limit what we know and quite frankly, that's a horrible way of looking at things. Just because truth is buried, does not mean we cannot unearth it.
Rad Raz
I've never heard of this vietnamese renegade prince becoming Korean general and such. The Korean history book never mension about this vietnamese prince. And by the way, Koreans already had last name Lee before 8th century, so it really does not make sense. This is probably what vietnamese thinks in their history, but not in korean history.
tongbao_vince
THat is interesting. But I'd have thought it would be more logical for Lee's to come from China since Northern Korea was part of several Chinese dynasties and many Korean last names have Chinese roots.
Hyena
seoul summed it up perfectly. the vietnamese lee's are just one of the groups among dozens of different lee family lines in korea. many lee's are of chinese origin by the way.

i think the statue you're thinking of is admiral yi ("yi" is the same as "lee", but "yi" is the actual pronunciation).
WhoAmI
There are some misunderstandings. I didnt mean the Korean Lee originated from the Vietnamese Ly. I meant one of the Korean Lee family lines are descendants of the Vietnamese Ly.

Hyena,
Oh so Yi is the same as Lee?? and isnt Admiral Yi a different person in Korean history?
Hyena
yes, he's a different person. "lee" is pronounced "yi" (without the "y" sound - just like a normal english "e") and both are the same name, but "lee" is a much more popular way of spelling it in english.
Kulong
QUOTE (Hyena @ Feb 29 2004, 09:30 PM)
yes, he's a different person. "lee" is pronounced "yi" (without the "y" sound - just like a normal english "e") and both are the same name, but "lee" is a much more popular way of spelling it in english.

If it's pronounced "Yi" in Korean, then where did the spelling of "Lee" come from?
WhoAmI
QUOTE (drunk_on_tea @ Feb 29 2004, 12:44 AM)
Hey WhoamI,

Thanks for that informative message about prince Ly Long Tuong. I know that the Korean descendants of prince Ly annually return to Bac Ninh, Viet Nam in order to pay respects to their ancestors. I was pretty surprised when my mother told me about the Lys migrating to Korea and she also told me that Ly Long Tuong's brother also got lost and landed in Taiwan, thus, there are some Taiwanese with the last name Li who are actually of Vietnamese descendants.
Also, the reason why there are so many Nguyens is not only because of the Lys changing their last names but the Trans also. After the royal Tran family was overthrown by the Le dynasty (no relation to the other Ly), members of the Tran royal family also had to change their last name to Nguyen. My mother's last name is Nguyen but I found out recently that our family had to change their name to Nguyen from Tran because we were members of the Tran royal family.

Hi drunk_on_tea,
So the Tran royal family had to change their names too huh? Yes that would also add to the many Nguyens lol. Its nice to know that the Korean descendants of Prince Ly make annual trips to Vietnam icon_smile.gif. Wow, Prince Ly had a brother who ended up in Taiwan? thats interesting. Thanks for sharing some more info. icon_smile.gif

QUOTE (DAI_VIET)
I've heard of this story. My ancestors chased the Ly families. That's why they are in Korea. Hehehehehe...
LOL embarassedlaugh.gif
Hyena
QUOTE
If it's pronounced "Yi" in Korean, then where did the spelling of "Lee" come from?


beats me. some korean words (or names) have a weird way of getting romanized. for instance, the current president roh mu-hyun's last name is actually pronounced "no" not "roh".
Kulong
QUOTE (Hyena @ Mar 1 2004, 12:18 AM)
QUOTE
If it's pronounced "Yi" in Korean, then where did the spelling of "Lee" come from?


beats me. some korean words (or names) have a weird way of getting romanized. for instance, the current president roh mu-hyun's last name is actually pronounced "no" not "roh".

Actually I understand why "No" is Romanized as "Roh" because "no" gives it a negative feeling. I don't see anything wrong with "Yi" though.
quangdaika
QUOTE (Rad Raz @ Feb 29 2004, 02:03 PM) *
I've never heard of this vietnamese renegade prince becoming Korean general and such. The Korean history book never mension about this vietnamese prince. And by the way, Koreans already had last name Lee before 8th century, so it really does not make sense. This is probably what vietnamese thinks in their history, but not in korean history.


sorry for bring up an old post. but check out this bibliography i found

Ch'oe, Sang-su. "Exile and Naturalization of Annamese Prince Ly." Korea Journal 9:6 (June 1969): 16-18.

source: http://www.hawaii.edu/korea/bibliography/koryo-mongols.htm

too bad i can't find a way to read the article.
sekushii
People are always confused about this topic... tongbao_vince included.
azn_leaki
QUOTE
Lee is the common English spelling of 이, a common Korean family name. 이 (李) is the second most common (after Kim) in Korea, 이 (異) and 이 (伊) being relatively rare. The name is sometimes also transliterated as Yi or Rhee. The hanja 李 literally means "plum" or "judge."

Clans
As with all Korean family names, the holders of the Lee surname are divided into different patrilineal clans, or lineages, based on their ancestral seat. Most such clans trace their lineage back to a specific founder. This system was at its height under the yangban aristocracy of the Joseon Dynasty, but it remains in use today. There are approximately 241 such clans claimed by South Koreans.

Deoksu clan
The founder of this clan was Yi Dong-su, an official of the Goryeo period. This was a prominent yangban clan during the Joseon Dynasty, producing figures including the admiral Yi Sun-sin and the philosopher Yulgok Yi I. The clan seat, Deoksu, corresponds to Deoksu-hyeon, an old division of what is now Kaep'ung-gun in Kaesong city, North Korea.

Gyeongju clan
The founder of this clan was Yi Al-pyeong, one of the original village headmen of Silla, who chose Bak Hyeokgeose as the first king. According to the Samguk Sagi, the Yi name was officially bestowed on the family by King Yuri around 9 CE. Prominent members include the Silla general Yi Sa-bu.

Yeoju clan
Prominent members of this clan include the Joseon Dynasty philosopher Seongho Yi Ik.

Jeonju clan
The founder of this clan was Yi Han, a high official of Silla. His 22nd-generation descendant, Yi Seonggye, went on to found the Joseon Dynasty.

Danyang clan
The founder of this clan was Jeong Dojeon, who was the first Prime Minister of Joseon and had close relations to King Yi Seonggye. The bestowed upon him the right to start his clan, a right only a yangban could ask, thus Jeong Dojeon created a new yangban clan. The clan's ancestral seat is Danyang.


foony. du sum research first man.......sorri for brigin up an old post .......
sekushii
^ Thank you for clearing it up.
azn_leaki
QUOTE
Lee is the common English spelling of 이, a common Korean family name. 이 (李) is the second most common (after Kim) in Korea, 이 (異) and 이 (伊) being relatively rare. The name is sometimes also transliterated as Yi or Rhee. The hanja 李 literally means "plum" or "judge."

Clans
As with all Korean family names, the holders of the Lee surname are divided into different patrilineal clans, or lineages, based on their ancestral seat. Most such clans trace their lineage back to a specific founder. This system was at its height under the yangban aristocracy of the Joseon Dynasty, but it remains in use today. There are approximately 241 such clans claimed by South Koreans.

Deoksu clan
The founder of this clan was Yi Dong-su, an official of the Goryeo period. This was a prominent yangban clan during the Joseon Dynasty, producing figures including the admiral Yi Sun-sin and the philosopher Yulgok Yi I. The clan seat, Deoksu, corresponds to Deoksu-hyeon, an old division of what is now Kaep'ung-gun in Kaesong city, North Korea.

Gyeongju clan
The founder of this clan was Yi Al-pyeong, one of the original village headmen of Silla, who chose Bak Hyeokgeose as the first king. According to the Samguk Sagi, the Yi name was officially bestowed on the family by King Yuri around 9 CE. Prominent members include the Silla general Yi Sa-bu.

Yeoju clan
Prominent members of this clan include the Joseon Dynasty philosopher Seongho Yi Ik.

Jeonju clan
The founder of this clan was Yi Han, a high official of Silla. His 22nd-generation descendant, Yi Seonggye, went on to found the Joseon Dynasty.

Danyang clan
The founder of this clan was Jeong Dojeon, who was the first Prime Minister of Joseon and had close relations to King Yi Seonggye. The bestowed upon him the right to start his clan, a right only a yangban could ask, thus Jeong Dojeon created a new yangban clan. The clan's ancestral seat is Danyang.


foony. du sum research first man.......sorri for brigin up an old post .......
cxp8
QUOTE(DAI_VIET @ Feb 29 2004, 12:51 AM) [snapback]90924[/snapback]

I've heard of this story. My ancestors chased the Ly families. That's why they are in Korea. Hehehehehe...



Very funny.....stupid fool
Ino
embarassedlaugh.gif
tony203
South Korean President Syngman Rhee is a descendant of Vietnamese Ly clan.

QUOTE
General Lee Maeng Woo was a Korean general and the sixth descendant of Ly Long Tuong who assisted General Pyun Hong Kee and was killed by the Choseon king. Today, there are 1500 households in North Korea and 600 households in South Korea are descendants of Lư Long Tường. On November 6, 1958, South Korean president Syngman Rhee said to the local press when he visited Saigon (the Republic of Vietnam's capital) that he was a descendant of Lư Long Tường. A descendant of Lư Long Tường also visited Ly's worship temple in Dinh Bang village in Bac Ninh Province and has sent his money on reconstructing the temple and also invested in a local project. In the end of 1995, a reportage on Ly Long Tuong was broadcast by a South Korean TV channel KBS.
kaizen
Syngman Rhee was a old geser who was a completely incompetent as a president. He was the reason why there was a military coupe from the beginning...

But in a brighter side, because of that incompetent fool, person like Park Jung He rose in power and fixed our economy...
tony203
I was responding to the person that said the Vietnamese "Ly" clan was/is insignificant to Korean society. Yet, in that one little paragraph it showed many who have made an impact in Korean society. Also, don't forget prince Ly Long Tuong, the person who helped kick out those Mongolians for you Koreans.
kaizen
He helped the koreans fight against mongols, he didn't pushed them out, genius.
tony203
QUOTE(kaizen @ Aug 8 2007, 06:24 PM) [snapback]3118525[/snapback]
He helped the koreans fight against mongols, he didn't pushed them out, genius.


wasn't that what I said? He "helped" ??? Talktohand.gif icon_rolleyes.gif icon_rolleyes.gif
kaizen
before you edited your post, you said he pushed out mongols for us.

nice trick
tony203
QUOTE(kaizen @ Aug 8 2007, 06:28 PM) [snapback]3118535[/snapback]
before you edited your post, you said he pushed out mongols for us.

nice trick


check when I edited it. it's way before you even responded. Talktohand.gif
tony203
Actually, you are right. How can I be so stupid. Prince Ly Long Tuong didn't just "help" pushed out those Mongolians, he LED the Koreans to push out the Mongolians. TWICE! kick.gif rotflmao.gif

QUOTE
In 1232, an army of the Mongol Empire led by Kublai Khan launched an attack on Korea via both sea and land. The troop, using waterways, attacked Hwang-hae but was defeated by the army and the local inhabitants led by Lư Long Tường. Lư Long Tường always rode a white horse and therefore he was dubbed the "White Horse General."

In 1253, The Mongol army led by the great Khan Mongca launched a second attack to Korea. Yuan-Mongol army, led by Tang Ji attacked Hwang-hae by waterway and land. Lư Long Tường, although by then over 70 years old, led the army and the local inhabitants to retain for five months. After this important triumph, the Korean king renamed Chen-san (鎭山) into Hwa-san (花山) and appointed Lư Long Tường Hwa-san the General. The location where the Mongol army surrendered was called Soo-jiang-mun (hanja: 受降門; "Gate of Surrender Acceptance"). The Korean king also had a pillar erected here to honour Lư Long Tường. (The pilar can be seen today here).

When Lư Long Tường died, he was buried at the foot of Di At mount near now Panmunjeom (Han-ja: 板門店). The mountain peak (Kwang-dea) where Lư Long Tường was always sat at to look southwards and cried is now called "Peak of Nostalgia" (hanja: 望國壇).
Aerain
My mother's name is Hye Ja Lee and I heard that our family names had some ties with the Korean royalty does that mean I have vietnamese blood, lol?
kaizen
ROFL, what a BS source. Where did you get it from? Wiki? How much you want to bet that it was a vietnamese guy who wrote that? This Ly lung tung guy was never mentioned until recently. Fact that he lead koreans to fight against Mongols and lead victory is a highly laughable. This guy is not even mentioned in our history book and there were numerous of generals who lead the resistance against mongols.

silly viets. laugh.gif
Chan-Ho
Interesting story. I don't think one person can "push back" the mongols. But it's cool that there is a Korean_Vietnamese connection here.
tony203
QUOTE(kaizen @ Aug 8 2007, 06:45 PM) [snapback]3118552[/snapback]
ROFL, what a BS source. Where did you get it from? Wiki? How much you want to bet that it was a vietnamese guy who wrote that? This Ly lung tung guy was never mentioned until recently. Fact that he lead koreans to fight against Mongols and lead victory is a highly laughable. This guy is not even mentioned in our history book and there were numerous of generals who lead the resistance against mongols.

silly viets. laugh.gif


Do you have better source? Why can't you just accept the fact that a Vietnamese prince made a significant impact in Korean history and society? Not only him, but his descendants as well. Silly Korean, don't be so ignorant towards Prince Ly Long Tuong's accomplishments, because without him, Korea probably wouldn't be the same today.
Aerain
Well, people can be skeptics too.
tony203
QUOTE(Aerain @ Aug 8 2007, 06:44 PM) [snapback]3118550[/snapback]
My mother's name is Hye Ja Lee and I heard that our family names had some ties with the Korean royalty does that mean I have vietnamese blood, lol?


I don't know, though it could be possible. But that's your own interest to find out for yourself, not mine. icon_wink.gif
AmericanPower
QUOTE(WhoAmI @ Jan 19 2004, 10:47 PM) [snapback]63467[/snapback]
(Incidentally, later the Tran dynasty and the hero Tran Hung Dao would also defeat three Mongol invasions back in Vietnam). Anyways, the Korean people saw him as a hero and made a statue of him on top of a horse in his honor. Because he always rode a white horse into battle he was nicknamed the "General on a White Horse". Prince Ly was also given land that became known as the Lee/Ly family farm house.



the vietnamese also at one point another fled from China thus

if I'm not mistaken:
Lees from China --> Lys in Vietnam --> to Lees in korea

So is it safe to assume that all Lees came from China?
Chan-Ho
QUOTE(tony203 @ Aug 8 2007, 04:56 PM) [snapback]3118574[/snapback]
Do you have better source? Why can't you just accept the fact that a Vietnamese prince made a significant impact in Korean history and society? Not only him, but his descendants as well. Silly Korean, don't be such an ignorant towards Prince Ly Long Tuong's accomplishments, because without him, Korea probably wouldn't be the same today.



Whoa Tony, calm down man. You're making a BUNCH of assumptions based on a few poorly documented series of events. Whose to say how significant Ly was? Plus, Korean history is long and complicated... don't get too ahead of yourself.
tony203
QUOTE(Chan-Ho @ Aug 8 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]3118563[/snapback]
Interesting story. I don't think one person can "push back" the mongols. But it's cool that there is a Korean_Vietnamese connection here.


Did you know the Vietnamese successfully pushed out the Mongolians everytime they invaded Vietnam? Just read Vietnam history. Who said prince Ly pushed out the Mongolians by himself? Their is a difference between fighting and leading.
tony203
QUOTE(Chan-Ho @ Aug 8 2007, 07:04 PM) [snapback]3118598[/snapback]
Whoa Tony, calm down man. Your making a BUNCH of assumptions based on a few poorly documented series of events. Whose to say how significant Ly was? Plus, Korean history is long and complicated... don't get too ahead of yourself.


I never denied Korean history being complex. Every country's history is complex. We are talking about Prince Ly Long Tuong's accomplishments, not Korean history as a whole.
tony203
QUOTE(AmericanPower @ Aug 8 2007, 07:02 PM) [snapback]3118593[/snapback]
the vietnamese also at one point another fled from China thus

if I'm not mistaken:
Lees from China --> Lys in Vietnam --> to Lees in korea

So is it safe to assume that all Lees came from China?


maybe, it would be interesting to know.
Aerain
QUOTE(tony203 @ Aug 8 2007, 08:06 PM) [snapback]3118601[/snapback]
Did you know the Vietnamese successfully pushed out the Mongolians everytime the invaded Vietnam? Just read Vietnam history. Who said prince Ly pushed out the Mongolians by himself? Their is a difference between fighting and leading.


Well, that doesn't mean anything, and I thought Vietnam mostly consisted of jungles and dark swamps (sarcasm)
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