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hi-head
I'm sure most of yall heard about the 4 failed Sui invasions of koguryo, particularly the infamous 2nd invasion where General Ulchi Mundok wiped out 302,300 chinese men in a single battle at Salsu and therefore crippled Sui's military capability and economy. Well i came across a book that had some details in it, and i just want to share it. Damn, they should make a movie out of this.

A little background leading up to the 2nd invasion: The northern Zhou dynasty fell as Yang Chien(a.ka. Wen ti) took over the throne, and renamed it Sui in 581 A.D. Sui also invaded the southern chinese dynasty of Chin in 589, destroyed it and unified China. This was the first unified chinese empire in 400 years. Yang Chien was an ambitious dude, and koguryo's diplomats warned koguryo's kings that Yang chien could possibly dream of an invasion, judging by his ambitious character. There was also a rule that whenever china unified, it was a threat to its neighbors, so all of china's neighbors were at high alert of their security, and paid tribute to Yang Chien.
Their predictions were on the spot as Yang turned his eyes to the north after the unification, and demanded tribute from the Turkish empire and Koguryo. The turks submitted to his pressure, but koguryo refused. Many times Yang sent spies and delegates to koguryo and demanded tribute, but koguryo ignored it. Soon, koguryo was the only nation bordering Sui that didnt pay tribute. Yang was furious, and prepared an invasion.

Upon notice that Yang was gathering 300,000 troops for koguryo, koguryo launced a preemptive strike across the Liao river with 10,000 magyar(manchu) troops in 598. Yang responded by launching the invasion, across the Liao and the Bohai bay. Upon receiving an insulting letter by the Sui, koguryo's king and generals decided that instead of responding with the pen, "they shall respond to such disgraceful treatment with the sword". The Liao division in the north failed because of the rainy season, which stopped their supplies from connecting. The seaborn army met Kang Ishik of Koguryo and lost most of their troops and ships. The Sui retreated, and Yang put his generals in jail out of anger. embarassedlaugh.gif2

Koguryo offered a peace treaty, and Sui took it gladly. For a while there was peace. Paekche offered Sui help in invading koguryo (since paekche knew koguryo geography by heart, from the hundreds of years of war), but Sui refused to invade. This just resulted in koguryo attacking paekche (and Shila), a resumption of an ages-old hanbando front wars, and assaulted both countries' northern fortifications to insure they wouldn't attack in the case of another Sui invasion. Koguryo took 3000 prisoners from Paekche.

Meanwhile, the Sui royalty faced a major conflict between Yang and his son, Yangdi, resulting in the son killing his father and taking the throne (604). This meant the end of peace, because Yang junior was even more ambitious than his father. He constructed a canal between beijing and the sui capital, and reinforced the Turk's tributary status by visiting the turkish capital with his army, and forcing their king to visit Chang'an. He also demanded tribute from koguryo, the only "rogue" state, and demanded that koguryo's prince visit his palace on his birthday, but koguryo ignored his requests. Yangdi decided to launch an invasion that koguryo couldn't possibly stop, to do what his father failed to do.

Koguryo prepared for the worst by invading shilla and paekche to deter a possible two-front war, and took their northern fortifications, weakening both's military.

In the April of 611, Yangdi gathered troops from all over China and prepared for a 2nd invasion, organizing at Beijing. The total number of troops for the koguryo invasion was 1,133,800 men. He began the invasion in January of 612. The following excerpt from Sui archives (隨書) describes the greatest presentation of force in chinese history:

- The army was organized into the Left Army and the Right Army, each with 12 divisions, total divisions being 24. In each division there was a senior commander and secondary commander. The troops were organized into Da and Dan, Da being 100 men and Dan being 10 Da. Each Dan had different colors in their helmet straps and flags of their own. A division contained 40 Da of cavalry and 80 Da of footsoldiers(spearmen), which was divided into 4 Dan with a captain each.
They started marching division after division, leaving 40 li (20 km) distance between each. Trumpets and drums were played between every division. The army's flags from one end to the other stretched 960 li (480 km). The emperor himself with 6 divisions followed behind, which itself stretched 80 li (40km).
It took 40 days for the entire army to start marching. This was the greatest military show one has ever seen. -

The left army, which included the emperor's army, went to koguryo via the northern route, crossing the liao into koguryo territory in manchuria. The Right army crossed the ocean via the Shandong penninsula, attempting to reach koguryo's capital directly by climbing the river.

Yangdi's left army penetrated koguryo's defenses on the other side of the Liao river, and koguryo's troops retreated into the Yodong(Liaotong) fortress. For months the chinese couldn't capture the grand fortress, which had very high walls. Summer came and Yang vent his frustration on his generals, and diverted his troops to attack another fortress instead, the Yukhap fortress, but it couldnt be captured either.

Meanwhile the Right Army finished its shipbuilding and set sail. It's captain Lai hao wo commanded the ships, and they arrived at koguryo's shores and Lai started up the river towards the capital with half the armada. They were only 60 li from the capital when koguryo troops started to harass them. The koguryo troops feigned defeat and retreat, and Lai chased after the bait. By the time he realized that his armada was tricked into entering too deep into enemy territory, his armada was surrounded. The surrounding troops attacked at once, and the panicked Lai ordered frantic retreat. However koguryo troops were hiding all along the river in places the ships were expected to retreat to, all the way down to the ocean, and Lai's armada was thoroughly demolished. Lai himself survived and returned to the rest of the troops anchored at the sea.

While the right army lost half of its forces, the left army was making little progress and incurring heavy costs in manchuria. The lead army lead by the two Wu generals decided to go around the koguryo defense and headed towards the capital. Their army consisted of Sui's 305,000 finest troops.
General Ulchi Mundok, upon the koguryo king's order, walked into the enemy camp alone and met the two Wu generals. This highly daring tact was made despite the fact that Yangdi ordered all of his generals to kill koguryo's king or Ulchi Mundok on sight. This type of daring individual risk and sacrifice was common among the three korean kingdoms who warred with each other. Ulchi Mundok's bravery surprised the Sui generals, who were confused as what to do when Ulchi Mundok offered a surrender. Mundok requested their army to retreat, in promise that koguryo's king would follow them to the palace to establish tributary relations. The Wu generals let him go, and soon after Mundok left their camp, they regretted it. The Sui army pursued Mundok.

This was all calculated and expected by Mundok, who lured the sui army deep into koguryo territory. Although one of the generals insisted that they wait for the supply line, the other insisted on taking koguryo's capital by the end of the day. A favorite of Yangdi, he wanted to please Yangdi so badly that he wanted to be able to send a victory notice that night. Of course, Ulchi mundok knew Wu very well enough to predict this behavior. As Sun Tsu says in the ARt of War, "know thyself and thy enemy and you will win a hundred battles". Yangdi failed to understand the koreans' resolve, believing in overwhelming numerical superiority alone, which was why the 1 million-man army wasn't very effective against an enemy that knew them so well.

As the Sui army advanced deep into koguryo territory, still in pursuit of Mundok, it faced 7 battles with small dispatches of koguryo troops, all of which the Sui won. All of which, under Mundok's plan, was feigned defeat and retreat. This the Wu generals did not realize, and with their troops' morale high but stamina/supplies dropping, they set camp 30 li outside of the capital, by the Salsu river.

Ulchi Mundok sent a now-famous letter to General Wu, which said the following:

Your brilliant strategies have ascended over the heavens,
and your tactics have shaken the earth,
you have won the battles and accomplished high standards,
so why not be satisfied and go back home

The Sui generals realized that their supplies ran thin and their troops were tired, indeed too tired to capture the capital, and turned around. When the 305,000 men started crossing the Salsu river, Ulchi Mundok and his troops attacked from both sides of the river.

The result was a massacre of a truly grand scale. Nowhere to run, trapped, and scared, the Sui troops started to run for their lives in all directions, jumping into the water. Out of the 305,000 men of the Sui lead army, only 2700 went back home alive.

As news of Wu's defeat reached Yangdi and Lai(of the right army), Lai immediately set sail for china, and Yangdi retreated with general Wu locked up in chains. embarassedlaugh.gif2
The second invasion thus ended in complete failure for the Sui, and it cost the new empire so much that it bankrupted it. Even so, the vain Yangdi attempted two more invasions, both of which he had to turn back because of widespread rebellion across the empire. He wanted to invade again, but his advisers all voted against it, and talked him out of it. Eventually the Sui collapsed, as rebels assassinated Yangdi and the empire split up, lasting only a decade after starting out with high expectations and hopes for a unified chinese hegemony.

Talk about wartime presidential popularity. Bring the troops home!! biggrin.gif

Also notable is the fact that Paekche was supposed to help Yangdi in the invasion of koguryo. However, as yangdi's million-man army poured into koguryo, with all bets on yangdi, paekche merely watched. Either it didnt feel the need to help yangdi, or more likely, it knew that koguryo's demise would also mean its own demise. Therefore as much as paekche and shilla hated koguryo, they tacitly knew that the entire korean penninsula and the korean people's destiny rested on her shoulders.
Mr. Tree
um is it just me or does this sound like a load of crap//

please dont use a quote from Sun Tzu when you dont know what he was all about k. If your claiming the Koreans knew him better than the Chinese, you really are a joke.


o yea sources would be nice
EvilAsianDude
Ulchi Mundok is pure genius, oh yeah and whats even scarier is this

According to the History of the Sui Dynasty, 1,138,000 combat troops were mobilised. The support troops, responsible for logistics and transportation of resources, are believed to have dwarfed even that number. The total strength of the army is in dispute, with estimates ranging from 3 to more than 5 million.

305,000 Chinese troops wiped out, the entire Koguryo army probally wasnt even above 100,000. And the number of troops Ulchi had at the battle of salsu was less than 40,000 I believe. Amazing how he won, numerical superiority loses to brains.
hi-head
The entire koguryo population at its peak was 3.5 million. Basically the invasion could have been observable from space lol, with an equivalent number of people moving into a land occupied by the same number. Koguryo in its history was able to muster up to 100,000 troops at most, most of the time just 50,000.

And mr.tree, i've never seen an idiot as dumb as you are. I request that you never respond to my posts anymore cuz i wont even argue with you. Now you even call famous accounts in history as bull$hit. This info comes directly from chinese sources as i stated, and is undisputed, even by your retarded country's academia. Didn't you even learn history? Have you even heard of the Sui dynasty and why it collapsed? Everything is bull$hit to you? Is it because you were born in a pile of bull$hit? Judging from your stupidity, your mom could be retarded enough to give birth on a cowfield.
CTM2000
Hmm interesting stuff indeed you guys ever read the book titled "Korea's Place in the Sun: A Modern History" by Bruce Cummings? He did a little piece on this famous story and regarding General Ulchi Mundok, he quoted:

"There is much merit to the argument; had Koguryo not beaten them (foreign invaders) back, all the states of the peninsula might have fallen under long-term Chinese domination and ultimate absorption. Thus commander like Ulchi Mundok became models for emulation thereafter, especially during the Korean War."

P.S. don't be surprised if bitter Chinese (looks like I was already too late) are going to come here and whiny incessantly.
hi-head
well, at chinese-forums.com the chinese formers there are fantasizing about what could have happened if koguryo couldnt repulse Sui, LOL.

I dont think the whole of korea would have been dominated however, especially since the tang failed at that only a few decades later.
EvilAsianDude
Its also in the book Graff, David A., Medieval Chinese Warfare

Arthur F Wright, The Sui Dynasty

and a bunch of other books you can probally find in your library or at amozan.com

I dont think this issue will be found in Chinese books though. Either that or they will only briefly comment on the issue and go somewhere else, despite the fact that over a million Chinese lost their lives during the wars. By todays numbers it would have been the equivalent of im estimating over 20 million chinese dieing today. Hardly an issue that should be skimmed or ignored in Chinese history.
hi-head
the book that i referred to for the above post is korean, so i had to translate an entire chapter! hard work for me, any props?

i did thoroughly enjoy writing that story.

btw visit this link, people are talkin about the salsu massacre there

http://www.chinese-forums.com/archive/index.php/t-2328.html
Mr. Tree
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 7 2005, 01:36 PM)
The entire koguryo population at its peak was 3.5 million. Basically the invasion could have been observable from space lol, with an equivalent number of people moving into a land occupied by the same number. Koguryo in its history was able to muster up to 100,000 troops at most, most of the time just 50,000.

And mr.tree, i've never seen an idiot as dumb as you are. I request that you never respond to my posts anymore cuz i wont even argue with you. Now you even call famous accounts in history as bull$hit. [/B] and is undisputed, even by your retarded country's academia. Didn't you even learn history? Have you even heard of the Sui dynasty and why it collapsed? Everything is bull$hit to you? Is it because you were born in a pile of bull$hit? Judging from your stupidity, your mom could be retarded enough to give birth on a cowfield.
*



your already sprouting out bs, i might not be some academic jack off but at least im not a bs artist. *pointing to you* yea and where did you state that it came from Chinese sources? moron, you just said that after you posted what an idiot
hi-head
what a retard, can you fu-kin read? Didn't i state Sui-she as source right before the excerpt on the details of Yangdi's army?

go back to your retarded mom's womb, and reborn in the right place now. This time tell your fu-kin mom not to give birth on a cowfield.
Mr. Tree
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 7 2005, 01:42 PM)
the book that i referred to for the above post is korean, so i had to translate an entire chapter! hard work for me, any props?

i did thoroughly enjoy writing that story.

btw visit this link, people are talkin about the salsu massacre there

http://www.chinese-forums.com/archive/index.php/t-2328.html
*



then thats disputable, unless it was translated my a REAL Academic which you clearly are not Talktohand.gif
hi-head
QUOTE (Mr. Tree @ Jul 6 2005, 09:49 PM)
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 7 2005, 01:42 PM)
the book that i referred to for the above post is korean, so i had to translate an entire chapter! hard work for me, any props?

i did thoroughly enjoy writing that story.

btw visit this link, people are talkin about the salsu massacre there

http://www.chinese-forums.com/archive/index.php/t-2328.html
*



then thats disputable, unless it was translated my a REAL Academic which you clearly are not Talktohand.gif
*




haha what a fu-kin imbecile, you're genetically deformed. I believe i'm a fairly good translator, i really like how i converted that poem which was written in chinese.
Mr. Tree
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 7 2005, 01:49 PM)
what a retard, can you fu-kin read? Didn't i state Sui-she as source right before the excerpt on the details of Yangdi's army?

go back to your retarded mom's womb, and reborn in the right place now. This time tell your fu-kin mom not to give birth on a cowfield.
*


Well i came across a book that had some details in it, and i just want to share it. Damn, they should make a movie out of this.

how is that a source fu-k wit, all you said so far is details about the battle, in what part did you say 'Sui-she' as a source. um yea, i looked in a book and it says this and that .. yea right

if that wasnt dumb enough, your using a forum as a source; how stupid can you be, its like trying to beleive half the $hit they post on stormfont, idiot. the people on that site arnt even Academics and are using recycled info from a number of other sites, there is not ONE reference to a book.... you suck
EvilAsianDude
^
Mr. Tree most of what hes saying is true, and can be found in books. The books I listed give out the exact details about Sui dynasty numbers and lossesss as well as the tactics used. Mind you these books come from professional academics who happen to be neither Korean nor Chinese. The stuff they write is simply true and has the evidence to back them.
chynagongju
Mr. Tree and Hi-head both warned for personal attacks and flaming [<--more hi-head for the "retarded country academics" remark]

keep it clean. discuss the topic at hand without attacking the poster please. thank you!
hi-head
wow now is that fu-kin bias. you give me more warning for attacking YOUR country?

you shouldnt be mod.

loot at this situation, dont you fu-kin understand how pissed off i am? Mr.Tree is a fu-kin moron, and he disses korea all the time, without any, ANY knowledge whatsoever. Never seen a chinese so ignorant. This kid is no contribution to this forum
chynagongju
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 09:18 PM)
wow now is that fu-kin bias. you give me more warning for attacking YOUR country?

you shouldnt be mod.

loot at this situation, dont you fu-kin understand how pissed off i am? Mr.Tree is a fu-kin moron, and he disses korea all the time, without any, ANY knowledge whatsoever. Never seen a chinese so ignorant. This kid is no contribution to this forum
*

wow. did you or did you not attack Mr. Tree personally? Did you or did you not attack the whole nation of China for having "retarded academics?" Regardless of WHAT country it was, it would have warranted a warning. Chill out.

So get mad at him, PM him with all the expletives, bashing his mom whatever you want. Don't do it on the forum and DO NOT take it out on me. I don't deserve your crap.

EDIT: Oh yeah, btw you both got ONE warning regardless of what I said it was for. How about CHECKING your warning stuff BEFORE reporting me as a bias mod to the other mods? icon_rolleyes.gif
hi-head
well i still think my flaming was totally called for.

god, i couldnt imagine that a thread as harmless and objective/unbiased as this could go to $hit by the chinese. I guess i overestimated you people.

let's get back on topic
k0r34n jjashik
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 08:43 PM)
I'm sure most of yall heard about the 4 failed Sui invasions of koguryo, particularly the infamous 2nd invasion where General Ulchi Mundok wiped out 302,300 chinese men in a single battle at Salsu and therefore crippled Sui's military capability and economy. Well i came across a book that had some details in it, and i just want to share it. Damn, they should make a movie out of this.

A little background leading up to the 2nd invasion: The northern Zhou dynasty fell as Yang Chien(a.ka. Wen ti) took over the throne, and renamed it Sui in 581 A.D. Sui also invaded the southern chinese dynasty of Chin in 589, destroyed it and unified China. This was the first unified chinese empire in 400 years. Yang Chien was an ambitious dude, and koguryo's diplomats warned koguryo's kings that Yang chien could possibly dream of an invasion, judging by his ambitious character. There was also a rule that whenever china unified, it was a threat to its neighbors, so all of china's neighbors were at high alert of their security, and paid tribute to Yang Chien.
Their predictions were on the spot as Yang turned his eyes to the north after the unification, and demanded tribute from the Turkish empire and Koguryo. The turks submitted to his pressure, but koguryo refused. Many times Yang sent spies and delegates to koguryo and demanded tribute, but koguryo ignored it. Soon, koguryo was the only nation bordering Sui that didnt pay tribute. Yang was furious, and prepared an invasion.

Upon notice that Yang was gathering 300,000 troops for koguryo, koguryo launced a preemptive strike across the Liao river with 10,000 magyar(manchu) troops in 598. Yang responded by launching the invasion, across the Liao and the Bohai bay. Upon receiving an insulting letter by the Sui, koguryo's king and generals decided that instead of responding with the pen, "they shall respond to such disgraceful treatment with the sword". The Liao division in the north failed because of the rainy season, which stopped their supplies from connecting. The seaborn army met Kang Ishik of Koguryo and lost most of their troops and ships. The Sui retreated, and Yang put his generals in jail out of anger. embarassedlaugh.gif2

Koguryo offered a peace treaty, and Sui took it gladly. For a while there was peace. Paekche offered Sui help in invading koguryo (since paekche knew koguryo geography by heart, from the hundreds of years of war), but Sui refused to invade. This just resulted in koguryo attacking paekche (and Shila), a resumption of an ages-old hanbando front wars, and assaulted both countries' northern fortifications to insure they wouldn't attack in the case of another Sui invasion. Koguryo took 3000 prisoners from Paekche.

Meanwhile, the Sui royalty faced a major conflict between Yang and his son, Yangdi, resulting in the son killing his father and taking the throne (604). This meant the end of peace, because Yang junior was even more ambitious than his father. He constructed a canal between beijing and  the sui capital, and reinforced the Turk's tributary status by visiting the turkish capital with his army, and forcing their king to visit Chang'an. He also demanded tribute from koguryo, the only "rogue" state, and demanded that koguryo's prince visit his palace on his birthday, but koguryo ignored his requests. Yangdi decided to launch an invasion that koguryo couldn't possibly stop, to do what his father failed to do.

Koguryo prepared for the worst by invading shilla and paekche to deter a possible two-front war, and took their northern fortifications, weakening both's military.

In the April of 611, Yangdi gathered troops from all over China and prepared for a 2nd invasion, organizing at Beijing. The total number of troops for the koguryo invasion was 1,133,800 men. He began the invasion in January of 612. The following excerpt from Sui archives (隨書) describes the greatest presentation of force in chinese history:

- The army was organized into the Left Army and the Right Army, each with 12 divisions, total divisions being 24. In each division there was a senior commander and secondary commander. The troops were organized into Da and Dan, Da being 100 men and Dan being 10 Da. Each Dan had different colors in their helmet straps and flags of their own. A division contained 40 Da of cavalry and 80 Da of footsoldiers(spearmen), which was divided into 4 Dan with a captain each.
They started marching division after division, leaving 40 li (20 km) distance between each. Trumpets and drums were played between every division. The army's flags from one end to the other stretched 960 li (480 km). The emperor himself with 6 divisions followed behind, which itself stretched 80 li (40km).
It took 40 days for the entire army to start marching. This was the greatest military show one has ever seen. -

The left army, which included the emperor's army, went to koguryo via the northern route, crossing the liao into koguryo territory in manchuria. The Right army crossed the ocean via the Shandong penninsula, attempting to reach koguryo's capital directly by climbing the river.

Yangdi's left army penetrated koguryo's defenses on the other side of the Liao river, and koguryo's troops retreated into the Yodong(Liaotong) fortress. For months the chinese couldn't capture the grand fortress, which had very high walls. Summer came and Yang vent his frustration on his generals, and diverted his troops to attack another fortress instead, the Yukhap fortress, but it couldnt be captured either.

Meanwhile the Right Army finished its shipbuilding and set sail. It's captain Lai hao wo commanded the ships, and they arrived at koguryo's shores and Lai started up the river towards the capital with half the armada. They were only 60 li from the capital when koguryo troops started to harass them. The koguryo troops feigned defeat and retreat, and Lai chased after the bait. By the time he realized that his armada was tricked into entering too deep into enemy territory, his armada was surrounded. The surrounding troops attacked at once, and the panicked Lai ordered frantic retreat. However koguryo troops were hiding all along the river in places the ships were expected to retreat to, all the way down to the ocean, and Lai's armada was thoroughly demolished. Lai himself survived and returned to the rest of the troops anchored at the sea.

While the right army lost half of its forces, the left army was making little progress and incurring heavy costs in manchuria. The lead army lead by the two Wu generals decided to go around the koguryo defense and headed towards the capital. Their army consisted of Sui's 305,000 finest troops.
General Ulchi Mundok, upon the koguryo king's order, walked into the enemy camp alone and met the two Wu generals. This highly daring tact was made despite the fact that Yangdi ordered all of his generals to kill koguryo's king or Ulchi Mundok on sight. This type of daring individual risk and sacrifice was common among the three korean kingdoms who warred with each other. Ulchi Mundok's bravery surprised the Sui generals, who were confused as what to do when Ulchi Mundok offered a surrender. Mundok requested their army to retreat, in promise that koguryo's king would follow them to the palace to establish tributary relations. The Wu generals let him go, and soon after Mundok left their camp, they regretted it. The Sui army pursued Mundok.

This was all calculated and expected by Mundok, who lured the sui army deep into koguryo territory. Although one of the generals insisted that they wait for the supply line, the other insisted on taking koguryo's capital by the end of the day. A favorite of Yangdi, he wanted to please Yangdi so badly that he wanted to be able to send a victory notice that night. Of course, Ulchi mundok knew Wu very well enough to predict this behavior. As Sun Tsu says in the ARt of War, "know thyself and thy enemy and you will win a hundred battles". Yangdi failed to understand the koreans' resolve, believing in overwhelming numerical superiority alone, which was why the 1 million-man army wasn't very effective against an enemy that knew them so well.

As the Sui army advanced deep into koguryo territory, still in pursuit of Mundok, it faced 7 battles with small dispatches of koguryo troops, all of which the Sui won. All of which, under Mundok's plan, was feigned defeat and retreat. This the Wu generals did not realize, and with their troops' morale high but stamina/supplies dropping, they set camp 30 li outside of the capital, by the Salsu river.

Ulchi Mundok sent a now-famous letter to General Wu, which said the following:

Your brilliant strategies have ascended over the heavens,
and your tactics have shaken the earth,
you have won the battles and accomplished high standards,
so why not be satisfied and go back home

The Sui generals realized that their supplies ran thin and their troops were tired, indeed too tired to capture the capital, and turned around. When the 305,000 men started crossing the Salsu river, Ulchi Mundok and his troops attacked from both sides of the river.

The result was a massacre of a truly grand scale. Nowhere to run, trapped, and scared, the Sui troops started to run for their lives in all directions, jumping into the water. Out of the 305,000 men of the Sui lead army, only 2700 went back home alive.

As news of Wu's defeat reached Yangdi and Lai(of the right army), Lai immediately set sail for china, and Yangdi retreated with general Wu locked up in chains. embarassedlaugh.gif2
The second invasion thus ended in complete failure for the Sui, and it cost the new empire so much that it bankrupted it. Even so, the vain Yangdi attempted two more invasions, both of which he had to turn back because of widespread rebellion across the empire. He wanted to invade again, but his advisers all voted against it, and talked him out of it. Eventually the Sui collapsed, as rebels assassinated Yangdi and the empire split up, lasting only a decade after starting out with high expectations and hopes for a unified chinese hegemony.

Talk about wartime presidential popularity. Bring the troops home!! biggrin.gif

Also notable is the fact that Paekche was supposed to help Yangdi in the invasion of koguryo. However, as yangdi's million-man army poured into koguryo, with all bets on yangdi, paekche merely watched. Either it didnt feel the need to help yangdi, or more likely, it knew that koguryo's demise would also mean its own demise. Therefore as much as paekche and shilla hated koguryo, they tacitly knew that the entire korean penninsula and the korean people's destiny rested on her shoulders.
*


nice post.. and yeah you did state sources.
sirgika
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 10:30 PM)
well i still think my flaming was totally called for.

god, i couldnt imagine that a thread as harmless and objective/unbiased as this could go to $hit by the chinese. I guess i overestimated you people.

let's get back on topic
*


Dude, you need to chill out and gain some common sense.

Yes, you've overestimated all of the Chinese "people". I guess we are nothing but inanimate objects towards you. sure.gif
Titanium
I must admit, hi-head is quite a character, never have I seen a poster take this forum so seriously LOL. It's almost as if it was a matter of life or death to him embarassedlaugh.gif2 funny indeed. I wouldn't be surprised if he acts the way he does in real life as he does in here. Oh as far as the topic is concerned, the successful Koguryo repelling against the Sui is quite a grand military feat (yes as I Chinese who's being objective agree). However it doesn't take anything away from China or Chinese military history (if that's being implied.....remember I noted the keyword if here before anyone wants to jump on my case).
Mr. Tree
wow didnt know this would happen, how is Chynagongju biased; YOU are the one who started with the insults sure.gif

anyway idd still like to know the name of that 'book' you got that text from.
azndood
sui invasions of koguryo eventually led to its collapse

this is common knowledge mr.tree
hi-head
well tree, here's the name of the goddamn book if you can read it: 한권으로 읽는 고구려 왕조실록. It is one of the most comprehensive, non-biased and balanced history publication detailing koguryo history, it's part of a series that examine korean history using ancient texts from korea, china, and japan, mostly from china. The thing is, some of you losers would rant that it's a korean book so it's not credible, and all that bull$hit...so i didnt bother to tell you the title of the book. But as you see, the Sui-she was referenced to in that book, and i just merely translated the chapter. This author is indeed a fairly good historian, this book seriously examines all mainstream viewpoints on a particular subject, the debate goin on regarding certain theories in a balanced manner...when you read it, you know you can trust this author.

and titanium- i wasnt implying anything. you can draw the conclusions yourself, but i was just merely discussing a truly amazing military feat in our history. cant i do that?
and yes, although most of the time i'm chilled out, there are certain annoying people that tick me off, and usually this tends to end up in some violence in real life. Let me just tell you that mr.tree is lucky to be arguin with me online. I just can't stand ignorance and arrogance. These two qualities set fire in me. Mr. Tree has both.

and sirgika, what's up with assuming things about me? perhaps you think koreans as inanimate objects? I never said anything down about chinese in this thread, except your academia, which is TRULY retarded, i will emphasize again. But mind you, i see you people as people, just like everyone else
Aqueousview
delete
CTM2000
Why are you Chinese nationalists denying the blatant obvious facts of history? Are you really that obsessed with saving face? Are you going to deny losing to the Mongols and the Manchus as well? Hey I can admit that Korea with the help of Ming China successfully repelled a Japanese invasion. It's an obvious historical fact that no one can deny no matter how nationalstic you are, of course Japan eventually got her way as she annexed and ruled Korea for 35 years embarassedlaugh.gif2 but that's a different topic.
Mr. Tree
To CTM: dude in what way did i imply i denied anything? i was just asking for reference to actual sources from hi head (bong head to be exact) since most of the time he doesnt.

To Bong Head: btw its easy to talk up big when your behind a computer screen buddy.
and probably half way across the planet.... lucky bastard
chynagongju
Stop the personal attacks...icon_rolleyes.gif
Adwaregator
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 6 2005, 11:21 PM)
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 09:18 PM)
wow now is that fu-kin bias. you give me more warning for attacking YOUR country?

you shouldnt be mod.

loot at this situation, dont you fu-kin understand how pissed off i am? Mr.Tree is a fu-kin moron, and he disses korea all the time, without any, ANY knowledge whatsoever. Never seen a chinese so ignorant. This kid is no contribution to this forum
*

wow. did you or did you not attack Mr. Tree personally? Did you or did you not attack the whole nation of China for having "retarded academics?" Regardless of WHAT country it was, it would have warranted a warning. Chill out.

So get mad at him, PM him with all the expletives, bashing his mom whatever you want. Don't do it on the forum and DO NOT take it out on me. I don't deserve your crap.

EDIT: Oh yeah, btw you both got ONE warning regardless of what I said it was for. How about CHECKING your warning stuff BEFORE reporting me as a bias mod to the other mods? icon_rolleyes.gif
*


i think it's mainly do to the fact that you called him out that makes it look biased...most mods are just blah blah warned for personal attacks and that's the end of it.
chynagongju
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Jul 7 2005, 09:06 PM)
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 6 2005, 11:21 PM)
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 09:18 PM)
wow now is that fu-kin bias. you give me more warning for attacking YOUR country?

you shouldnt be mod.

loot at this situation, dont you fu-kin understand how pissed off i am? Mr.Tree is a fu-kin moron, and he disses korea all the time, without any, ANY knowledge whatsoever. Never seen a chinese so ignorant. This kid is no contribution to this forum
*

wow. did you or did you not attack Mr. Tree personally? Did you or did you not attack the whole nation of China for having "retarded academics?" Regardless of WHAT country it was, it would have warranted a warning. Chill out.

So get mad at him, PM him with all the expletives, bashing his mom whatever you want. Don't do it on the forum and DO NOT take it out on me. I don't deserve your crap.

EDIT: Oh yeah, btw you both got ONE warning regardless of what I said it was for. How about CHECKING your warning stuff BEFORE reporting me as a bias mod to the other mods? icon_rolleyes.gif
*


i think it's mainly do to the fact that you called him out that makes it look biased...most mods are just blah blah warned for personal attacks and that's the end of it.
*


please notice that he said "MORE warning" I did not give him MORE warning. They both got 1. in warnings you have to say why. so, i said why. he was warned for flaming and personal attack whereas mr. tree was for personal attack.
Adwaregator
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 7 2005, 11:10 PM)
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Jul 7 2005, 09:06 PM)
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 6 2005, 11:21 PM)
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 09:18 PM)
wow now is that fu-kin bias. you give me more warning for attacking YOUR country?

you shouldnt be mod.

loot at this situation, dont you fu-kin understand how pissed off i am? Mr.Tree is a fu-kin moron, and he disses korea all the time, without any, ANY knowledge whatsoever. Never seen a chinese so ignorant. This kid is no contribution to this forum
*

wow. did you or did you not attack Mr. Tree personally? Did you or did you not attack the whole nation of China for having "retarded academics?" Regardless of WHAT country it was, it would have warranted a warning. Chill out.

So get mad at him, PM him with all the expletives, bashing his mom whatever you want. Don't do it on the forum and DO NOT take it out on me. I don't deserve your crap.

EDIT: Oh yeah, btw you both got ONE warning regardless of what I said it was for. How about CHECKING your warning stuff BEFORE reporting me as a bias mod to the other mods? icon_rolleyes.gif
*


i think it's mainly do to the fact that you called him out that makes it look biased...most mods are just blah blah warned for personal attacks and that's the end of it.
*


please notice that he said "MORE warning" I did not give him MORE warning. They both got 1. in warnings you have to say why. so, i said why. he was warned for flaming and personal attack whereas mr. tree was for personal attack.
*


eh i'll just end it at

QUOTE
[<--more hi-head for the "retarded country academics" remark]


that's what i meant...
chynagongju
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Jul 7 2005, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 7 2005, 11:10 PM)
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Jul 7 2005, 09:06 PM)
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 6 2005, 11:21 PM)
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 09:18 PM)
wow now is that fu-kin bias. you give me more warning for attacking YOUR country?

you shouldnt be mod.

loot at this situation, dont you fu-kin understand how pissed off i am? Mr.Tree is a fu-kin moron, and he disses korea all the time, without any, ANY knowledge whatsoever. Never seen a chinese so ignorant. This kid is no contribution to this forum
*

wow. did you or did you not attack Mr. Tree personally? Did you or did you not attack the whole nation of China for having "retarded academics?" Regardless of WHAT country it was, it would have warranted a warning. Chill out.

So get mad at him, PM him with all the expletives, bashing his mom whatever you want. Don't do it on the forum and DO NOT take it out on me. I don't deserve your crap.

EDIT: Oh yeah, btw you both got ONE warning regardless of what I said it was for. How about CHECKING your warning stuff BEFORE reporting me as a bias mod to the other mods? icon_rolleyes.gif
*


i think it's mainly do to the fact that you called him out that makes it look biased...most mods are just blah blah warned for personal attacks and that's the end of it.
*


please notice that he said "MORE warning" I did not give him MORE warning. They both got 1. in warnings you have to say why. so, i said why. he was warned for flaming and personal attack whereas mr. tree was for personal attack.
*


eh i'll just end it at

QUOTE
[<--more hi-head for the "retarded country academics" remark]


that's what i meant...
*


I know, if I didn't specify, I'm sure it would be met with "WHERE?! )(*&#$# did I flame??!" The [more for ;lakdjfal] was to specify that flaming was more for hi-head than mr. tree. mr. tree personally attacked hi-head, didn't flame korea.
qnpfr
how is this battle recorded in chinese history? im curious...
oblivion38
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 7 2005, 12:21 PM)
Did you or did you not attack the whole nation of China for having "retarded academics?" Regardless of WHAT country it was, it would have warranted a warning. Chill out.


That China has "retarded academics", where "retarded" means politically manipulated and biased, and assuming whole nation of China means "territory of China controlled by the whole-controlling totalitarian communist party", I believe what hi-head said were facts of truth. As long as what he said were facts of truth, they were not slander, thus you have no right to repress his freedom of speech that which is based on facts. Now, I don't have a problem with you to warn him for personally insulting Mr. Tree, but if you have a problem with him attacking a politicaly entity, China, refute the basis for his facts, rather than to threaten him with power.
chynagongju
QUOTE (oblivion38 @ Jul 7 2005, 11:25 PM)
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 7 2005, 12:21 PM)
Did you or did you not attack the whole nation of China for having "retarded academics?" Regardless of WHAT country it was, it would have warranted a warning. Chill out.


That China has "retarded academics", where "retarded" means politically manipulated and biased, and whole nation of China means "territory of China controlled by the whole-controlling totalitarian communist party", I believe what hi-head said were facts of truth. As long as what he said were facts of truth, they were not slander, thus you have no right to repress his freedom of speech that which is based on facts. If you have a problem, refute the basis for his facts, rather than threaten him with power.
*


I wonder if you read everything before that. I didn't threaten him at all. Don't kow where you got that from.

Did he define "retarded" in that fashion? Is that how "retarded" is seen in common language? I got a report about his comment. and NOT from Mr. Tree.

His warning was not ONLY for that btw. Which you would know if you read the posts and parts of posts before your quote.
oblivion38
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 8 2005, 02:30 PM)
I wonder if you read everything before that. I didn't threaten him at all. Don't kow where you got that from.

Did he define "retarded" in that fashion? Is that how "retarded" is seen in common language? I got a report about his comment. and NOT from Mr. Tree.

His warning was not ONLY for that btw. Which you would know if you read the posts and parts of posts before your quote.
*


Perhaps you are not familiar with power, and its consequences.

QUOTE
Mr. Tree and Hi-head both warned for personal attacks and flaming [<--more hi-head for the "retarded country academics" remark]


When you give people warnings, you are imposing unilateral power over others. You may believe that you are only giving them warnings, as in non-threatning words of advice. But warnings are warnings. They are advice based on threats, enfored by power, which in your case is your authority as a mod. Warn him for making personal attacks, but do not warn him for "flaming" on a political entity that is judged as guilty by the Korean people.
chynagongju
QUOTE (oblivion38 @ Jul 7 2005, 11:36 PM)
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 8 2005, 02:30 PM)
I wonder if you read everything before that. I didn't threaten him at all. Don't kow where you got that from.

Did he define "retarded" in that fashion? Is that how "retarded" is seen in common language? I got a report about his comment. and NOT from Mr. Tree.

His warning was not ONLY for that btw. Which you would know if you read the posts and parts of posts before your quote.
*


Perhaps you are not familiar with power, and its consequences.

QUOTE
Mr. Tree and Hi-head both warned for personal attacks and flaming [<--more hi-head for the "retarded country academics" remark]


When you give people warnings, you are imposing unilateral power over others. You may believe that you are only giving them warnings, as in non-threatning words of advice. But warnings are warnings. They are advice based on threats, enfored by power, which in your case is your authority as a mod. Warn him for making personal attacks, but do not warn him for "flaming" on a political entity that is judged as guilty by the Korean people.
*


Perhaps you don't understand that when he used that word, he didn't intend it in that manner, and if he did, others did not see it like that, which is why he was reported for that.

Threatening? I believe he was threatening as well. He even took threatening actions.

It's interesting that you only choose to lecture me on my threats whereas his statements, which include much more expletives and anger are let go without a second glance.
oblivion38
QUOTE (Mr. Tree @ Jul 8 2005, 11:53 AM)
To CTM: dude in what way did i imply i denied anything? i was just asking for reference to actual sources from hi head (bong head to be exact) since most of the time he doesnt.

To Bong Head: btw its easy to talk up big when your behind a computer screen buddy.
and probably half way across the planet.... lucky bastard
*


三國史記
oblivion38
QUOTE (chynagongju @ Jul 8 2005, 02:39 PM)
Perhaps you don't understand that when he used that word, he didn't intend it in that manner, and if he did, others did not see it like that, which is why he was reported for that.


He could have meant many things by using the word "retarded", but to give a negative light on those... so called Chinese "academics" is just. If you warn him for using PROFANITY rathern than his motives, I completely agree with your decisions.

QUOTE
Threatening? I believe he was threatening as well. He even took threatening actions.


So what did he do? Tell you that he'll ban you from the AF forums? Or did he actually.. ban you, that he took threatening actions?

QUOTE
It's interesting that you only choose to lecture me on my threats whereas his statements, which include much more expletives and anger are let go without a second glance.


I'm also discontented by his use of profanity, and I will accuse him so in private.
Jasel
QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 10:36 PM)
And mr.tree, i've never seen an idiot as dumb as you are. Judging from your stupidity, your mom could be retarded enough to give birth on a cowfield.
*



QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 10:49 PM)
what a retard, can you fu-kin read? go back to your retarded mom's womb, and reborn in the right place now. This time tell your fu-kin mom not to give birth on a cowfield.
*



QUOTE (hi-head @ Jul 6 2005, 10:51 PM)
haha what a fu-kin imbecile, you're genetically deformed.
*


Mr. Tree

QUOTE
your already sprouting out bs, i might not be some academic jack off but at least im not a bs artist. *pointing to you* yea and where did you state that it came from Chinese sources? moron, you just said that after you posted what an idiot


QUOTE
how is that a source fu-k wit


QUOTE
if that wasnt dumb enough, your using a forum as a source; how stupid can you be, its like trying to beleive half the $hit they post on stormfont, idiot. the people on that site arnt even Academics and are using recycled info from a number of other sites, there is not ONE reference to a book.... you suck



Anyone with any common sense can see that they both deserved warnings. Personally I would have temp banned both of them. But Chyna gave them BOTH warnings so I don't see why people here are complaining about bias. If it bothers you so much complain to Ben. But don't sit around making accusations of bias without any kind of evidence especially when no favoritism is being shown.
Titanium
LOL seriously Chyna, you don't have to take this from anyone. Afterall you're the freakin mod. Let them cry a river......... embarassedlaugh.gif2
Jizzah
One thing is clear, Mr. Tree had no idea what he was talking about and was incorrect to accuse hi-head of bs'ing on a standard article of history. Lest people forget, that's the important point. Will Mr. Tree learn from this lesson and get a clue for the next time?
Jasel
No. The point is to stop fu-king flaming over stupid $hit and then b!tching about it when you get a warning.
Jizzah
QUOTE (Jasel @ Jul 8 2005, 01:51 PM)
No. The point is to stop fu-king flaming over stupid $hit and then b!tching about it when you get a warning.
*



History isn't stupid $hit, and repetitively attacking someone's credibility is not a minor issue. It can be quite annoying, especially when it's ignorant.

- I haven't written in regard to the warnings.
MadGhoul
damn, Hi-head sure does fly off the handle pretty easily

from what i read "your retarded country's academics" which basically states the academics of a retarded country. thats sounds pretty damn insulting to me. that attacks a whole country's integrity. its uncalled for

now if he said "your country's retarded academics", that would be fine because thats attacking one aspect of a nation.

anycase, you guys are some blind @$$ motherfu-kers who see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear. no point in disputing it. any level headed person would agree

but I will give Hi-head a point for typing up a historical event that was worth reading. the credibility i'm sure is probably at least somewhat true. overexaggerated maybe. don't know i don't have the academic expertise to say so. the intent though not so sure. probably to feed nationalistic ego like everybody else does around here.

now if anybody says, that i'm being one sided, like so many would love to accuse, fu-k you
MadGhoul
QUOTE (Jizzah @ Jul 8 2005, 01:48 PM)
One thing is clear, Mr. Tree had no idea what he was talking about and was incorrect to accuse hi-head of bs'ing on a standard article of history. Lest people forget, that's the important point. Will Mr. Tree learn from this lesson and get a clue for the next time?
*


So what, just cause Mr. Tree doesn't believe it out of ignorance doesn't mean he should have been insulted so vehemently. $hit, if someone insulted me like that without really knowing me, they'd get a boot in the throat.

Mr. Tree was being ignorant
Hi-head was being a prick
Adwaregator
QUOTE (MadGhoul @ Jul 8 2005, 03:13 PM)
damn, Hi-head sure does fly off the handle pretty easily

from what i read "your retarded country's academics" which basically states the academics of a retarded country. thats sounds pretty damn insulting to me. that attacks a whole country's integrity. its uncalled for

now if he said "your country's retarded academics", that would be fine because thats attacking one aspect of a nation.

anycase, you guys are some blind @$$ motherfu-kers who see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear. no point in disputing it. any level headed person would agree

but I will give Hi-head a point for typing up a historical event that was worth reading. the credibility i'm sure is probably at least somewhat true. overexaggerated maybe. don't know i don't have the academic expertise to say so. the intent though not so sure. probably to feed nationalistic ego like everybody else does around here.

now if anybody says, that i'm being one sided, like so many would love to accuse, fu-k you
*

actually it's stating that their academia is biased and slanted...sigh same can be said of n. korea's. Or maybe the Chinese like the Japanese historical claim on the massacre. Retarded no?
chynagongju
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Jul 8 2005, 01:51 PM)
QUOTE (MadGhoul @ Jul 8 2005, 03:13 PM)
damn, Hi-head sure does fly off the handle pretty easily

from what i read "your retarded country's academics" which basically states the academics of a retarded country. thats sounds pretty damn insulting to me. that attacks a whole country's integrity. its uncalled for

now if he said "your country's retarded academics", that would be fine because thats attacking one aspect of a nation.

anycase, you guys are some blind @$$ motherfu-kers who see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear. no point in disputing it. any level headed person would agree

but I will give Hi-head a point for typing up a historical event that was worth reading. the credibility i'm sure is probably at least somewhat true. overexaggerated maybe. don't know i don't have the academic expertise to say so. the intent though not so sure. probably to feed nationalistic ego like everybody else does around here.

now if anybody says, that i'm being one sided, like so many would love to accuse, fu-k you
*

actually it's stating that their academia is biased and slanted...sigh same can be said of n. korea's. Or maybe the Chinese like the Japanese historical claim on the massacre. Retarded no?
*


I know what you're saying when you say that Hi-head meant "retarded" in a certain aspect. However, read all of Jasel's quotes of Hi-head. He used retarded a lot. Did he mean retarded the way you want him to? Or did he mean it the way he used it the other 10 times?

Also, you choose to lecture him through PM privately, but have no problem lecturing me in public? Quite nice and fair.
MadGhoul
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Jul 8 2005, 02:51 PM)
QUOTE (MadGhoul @ Jul 8 2005, 03:13 PM)
damn, Hi-head sure does fly off the handle pretty easily

from what i read "your retarded country's academics" which basically states the academics of a retarded country. thats sounds pretty damn insulting to me. that attacks a whole country's integrity. its uncalled for

now if he said "your country's retarded academics", that would be fine because thats attacking one aspect of a nation.

anycase, you guys are some blind @$$ motherfu-kers who see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear. no point in disputing it. any level headed person would agree

but I will give Hi-head a point for typing up a historical event that was worth reading. the credibility i'm sure is probably at least somewhat true. overexaggerated maybe. don't know i don't have the academic expertise to say so. the intent though not so sure. probably to feed nationalistic ego like everybody else does around here.

now if anybody says, that i'm being one sided, like so many would love to accuse, fu-k you
*

actually it's stating that their academia is biased and slanted...sigh same can be said of n. korea's. Or maybe the Chinese like the Japanese historical claim on the massacre. Retarded no?
*



like i said, if that is what he intended to say, fine, i won't argue that the Chinese govt, doesn't tamper with historical evidence. thing is thats not what he said. go back to his first response. he clearly says retarded country's academia. which is completely different from saying your country's retarded academia. given his track record where he's usually the first one spouting off blatantly racist remarks to other members even when it isn't justified, sorry i can't believe that he didn't mean to attack China's integrity and just its academics. if thats what he intended to say, then he should have stated it.

and yes, ANY historic distortion as means to saving face or to instill a false sense of national pride is stupid. it prevents progress of any kind. if you don't learn from your mistakes, then you don't learn at all. this doesn't go for just China. this include all nations, including Japan and Korea. which obviously has its fair share
Adwaregator
QUOTE (MadGhoul @ Jul 8 2005, 04:05 PM)
QUOTE (Adwaregator @ Jul 8 2005, 02:51 PM)
QUOTE (MadGhoul @ Jul 8 2005, 03:13 PM)
damn, Hi-head sure does fly off the handle pretty easily

from what i read "your retarded country's academics" which basically states the academics of a retarded country. thats sounds pretty damn insulting to me. that attacks a whole country's integrity. its uncalled for

now if he said "your country's retarded academics", that would be fine because thats attacking one aspect of a nation.

anycase, you guys are some blind @$$ motherfu-kers who see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear. no point in disputing it. any level headed person would agree

but I will give Hi-head a point for typing up a historical event that was worth reading. the credibility i'm sure is probably at least somewhat true. overexaggerated maybe. don't know i don't have the academic expertise to say so. the intent though not so sure. probably to feed nationalistic ego like everybody else does around here.

now if anybody says, that i'm being one sided, like so many would love to accuse, fu-k you
*

actually it's stating that their academia is biased and slanted...sigh same can be said of n. korea's. Or maybe the Chinese like the Japanese historical claim on the massacre. Retarded no?
*



like i said, if that is what he intended to say, fine, i won't argue that the Chinese govt, doesn't tamper with historical evidence. thing is thats not what he said. go back to his first response. he clearly says retarded country's academia. which is completely different from saying your country's retarded academia. given his track record where he's usually the first one spouting off blatantly racist remarks to other members even when it isn't justified, sorry i can't believe that he didn't mean to attack China's integrity and just its academics. if thats what he intended to say, then he should have stated it.

and yes, ANY historic distortion as means to saving face or to instill a false sense of national pride is stupid. it prevents progress of any kind. if you don't learn from your mistakes, then you don't learn at all. this doesn't go for just China. this include all nations, including Japan and Korea. which obviously has its fair share
*


the way he might have typed it is different from the way you view it but that's what i got from it during my first reading. It goes along with the theme of a "chinese" person arguing the historical facts and the sentence fits right in. Either way, both ways can mean that the person learned from a slanted academic arena or is involved in one. Brainwashed is brainwashed
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