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DaMo
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086157/

QUOTE
Selling Off Siberia
Why China should purchase the Russian Far East.

By Kim Iskyan
Posted Monday, July 28, 2003, at 1:52 PM PT

Seven million people live on the frozen resource-rich taiga of Russia's Far East, a region nearly as large as the contiguous United States. Roughly 1.3 billion Chinese are packed like pickles next door, where corruption, spiraling unemployment, environmental disaster, and growing rural unrest are taking the luster off the Chinese economic miracle. Unfortunately for China's dire need for new demographic and economic horizons, Russia isn't eager to share its chilly sandbox with the neighbors. The struggle between Dr. Malthus and Doctor Zhivago threatens the balance of power in the Far East. But economics—rather than a Tom Clancy-style showdown—will likely decide the winner.

If the Earth's territory were divvied up according to demographic need and by potential for economic development, China would play Pac-Man at the expense of the Russian Far East. Four time zones wide, the RFE extends from the Bering Sea—a few miles from Alaska—in the northeast, to the Sea of Japan in the southeast, to China in the south, and Siberia to the west. The 100 million inhabitants of the RFE's Chinese neighbor, the Northeast Provinces (also called Manchuria), live in an area that is roughly one-eighth the size of the RFE.

The RFE's poor manufacturing base, crumbling physical infrastructure, high transportation costs, and small natural markets discourage local enterprise. The perversions of Soviet economics were accentuated in the RFE, resulting in economic dislocation even more severe than elsewhere in the former Soviet Union. Moscow's make-work, value-destructive factories that struggled to survive after the command economy collapsed at least had a natural local market of millions of Muscovites. But after Soviet subsidies ended, similar facilities situated on RFE Frozen Plain No. 948,373 had a more difficult time getting raw materials—and selling their shoddy goods to markets thousands of kilometers away. On another front, periodic power shortages plunge large swaths of the RFE into Arctic darkness every winter—an eight-month-long exercise in frostbite that makes North Dakota seem balmy by comparison. Tiny cadres of progressive businesspeople who have managed to unlearn the lessons of 70 years of Soviet-style communism have to battle local politicians who set the Russian standard for incompetence and corruption. The RFE is Russia's Wild West, but post-Soviet Russia doesn't have the patience, time, manpower, or money to wait for Manifest Destiny to take hold—nor to exploit the RFE's superabundance of natural resources, including timber, oil and gas, minerals, and fish. It's no wonder that the region's population has declined by 10 percent over the past decade.

China—and Manchuria in particular—has its own set of problems. Overpopulation, resource misallocation, and twisted economic incentives that are a result of the Chinese capitalist experiment are pressuring economic growth, particularly in the inland areas. According to the Economist, the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences has projected that unemployment could rise to 15 percent (compared with an official rate of less than 4 percent), with comparatively underdeveloped inland areas hit the hardest. The shuttering of state-owned enterprises throughout China—and especially in parts of Manchuria—part of the painful process of dismantling the infrastructure of the state economy, has resulted in widespread labor unrest. Private companies and rural enterprise have failed to pick up the employment slack: Arable land is scarce and exhausted, and land loss has accelerated as aquifers have dried up, resulting in declining grain harvests. The absence of a political safety valve has raised concerns that rural unrest could derail China's slow economic liberalization process.

The endless horizons of the RFE would create new opportunities for land ownership for tens of millions of unemployed Chinese rural dwellers. Unlike Russia, China has the ingrained entrepreneurial spirit, as well as the incentive and cash, to make the best of the Russian Far East. The RFE's natural resource wealth—especially oil and gas on Sakhalin—would provide Beijing with a significant measure of energy-security comfort. Moving in on Vladivostok, Russia's only temperate Pacific port, would at once end Russian trade in the Pacific; terminate any lingering relevance for Russia's Pacific navy; and enable China to pose an immediate threat to Japan. Russia's focus, though, long ago shifted west, just as its influence in East Asia has long been on the wane.

China's designs on the Russian Far East have strong historical roots. China controlled most of what is now the RFE until the 1850s, when Russia took advantage of China's preoccupation with the Opium Wars to take control of a large swath of the area. A few additional land grabs, followed by a prolonged series of pogroms and deportations, meant that by 1937 Russia had effectively eradicated the Chinese presence in the RFE. But China has subsequently been cagey about recognizing the treaties that resulted in the confiscation of its territory and unwilling to definitively admit defeat.

China is already hip-deep into a stealth economic invasion of the RFE. The region is heavily dependent on Chinese imports for its food supplies and consumable items. The vast distances between Russia's economic center and the RFE have meant that the area frequently looks south, rather than west, for economic opportunity. Anecdotally, the Chinese presence in markets, restaurants, real estate, and investment throughout the RFE is significant; according to the U.S. government's Commercial Service, China is one of the three largest foreign trade partners of at least five of the nine administrative regions of Russia's Far East Federal District. Wildly imprecise estimates of the Chinese population in the RFE range between 100,000 to an improbable 10 million, on the back of illegal immigration facilitated by the sievelike nature of the 2,700-mile border between the two countries. In July 2000, intelligence provider Stratfor.com forecasted that the Chinese could become the RFE's dominant ethnic group by 2020; it later warned that the Chinese government's crackdown on domestic crime gangs, and the criminal opportunities offered by the untamed nature of the RFE, compounded by the incompetence and corruption of Russian law enforcement, was leading to the dramatic expansion of Chinese criminal activities in the RFE.

...
tongbao_vince
As much as I would like to see China aquire the Russian Far East, I don't think the Russians want to sell it.

The Lake Baikal region is Russia's largest reserve of natural resources. With 20% of the world's freshwater, distinct animal species, some 60% of forests, natural 50% or so of gas and oil, Russia would be losing more than half its natural resources by selling it all to China.
tqt
the Russian already sold Alaska, i don't think they'll ever want to sell any more land.
Rad Raz
and russia isn't stupid enough to sell their land with resouces in it...
Kulong
QUOTE (Rad Raz @ Feb 5 2004, 12:53 PM)
and russia isn't stupid enough to sell their land with resouces in it...

They were stupid enough to sell Alaska. Not only was Alaska full of resources, it was a strategic location as well. But then, if Russia still had Alaska, that would mean Russia crosses three continents, Europe, Asia and America, which would make the "Is Russian Asian" thread that much more interesting icon_smile.gif

Also, the Russian economy is in a rump while Chinese economy is rapidly rising. Although this might change in the near future, but if we assume things are going at their present trend, eventually, Russia will be so poor that they just might be desperate enough to sell Russian Far East to China. But of course, this is all just spectulation icon_smile.gif
tongbao_vince
QUOTE
the Russian already sold Alaska, i don't think they'll ever want to sell any more land.


Problem is that there are ALOT more Chinese in the RFE than Russians. And it costs much more to supply all these cities in the middle of nowhere. Siberia lacks technology so despite all the resources in it, Russia has not yet begun to successfully extract them on a scale that makes profit.

Plus, Much of the RFE belongs to China before the Qing dynasty collapsed.
Ogumo
QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 5 2004, 02:33 PM)
QUOTE (Rad Raz @ Feb 5 2004, 12:53 PM)
and russia isn't stupid enough to sell their land with resouces in it...

They were stupid enough to sell Alaska. Not only was Alaska full of resources, it was a strategic location as well. But then, if Russia still had Alaska, that would mean Russia crosses three continents, Europe, Asia and America, which would make the "Is Russian Asian" thread that much more interesting icon_smile.gif

Also, the Russian economy is in a rump while Chinese economy is rapidly rising. Although this might change in the near future, but if we assume things are going at their present trend, eventually, Russia will be so poor that they just might be desperate enough to sell Russian Far East to China. But of course, this is all just spectulation icon_smile.gif

That is because russia people can be very damn incompetant. But you know the attitude to chinese people in russia. "We are white people we do not want to be swallowed by china" that is what may prevent them from selling anything else.
tqt
QUOTE (tongbao_vince @ Feb 5 2004, 06:44 PM)
QUOTE
the Russian already sold Alaska, i don't think they'll ever want to sell any more land.


Problem is that there are ALOT more Chinese in the RFE than Russians. And it costs much more to supply all these cities in the middle of nowhere. Siberia lacks technology so despite all the resources in it, Russia has not yet begun to successfully extract them on a scale that makes profit.

Plus, Much of the RFE belongs to China before the Qing dynasty collapsed.

By how many do you mean "alot"? From what i know, Siberia is a piece of land that has been inhabitated by the Turkic-speaking people since the ancient time.

Siberia is dotted with diamond mines and i highly doubt that anyone in this world is stupid enough to sell it.
直隸總督
QUOTE
Siberia is a piece of land that has been inhabitated by the Turkic-speaking people since the ancient time.

Russian Far East has been inhabitated by Tongus-speaking sinid people since the ancient time.
DaMo
QUOTE (tongbao_vince @ Feb 5 2004, 06:44 PM)
Problem is that there are ALOT more Chinese in the RFE than Russians.

That is not true. The population of Chinese in the RFE is 300,000, while the Russian population is at least 6 million.

QUOTE (tongbao_vince @ Feb 5 2004, 06:44 PM)
Plus, Much of the RFE belongs to China before the Qing dynasty collapsed.

Correction: It belonged to China. It is now Russian territory, and while that is so, the extent of Chinese immigration into the RFE depends on them and their needs. I'm sure many modern states would also love to claim part of their old empires, but when you lose 'em, you lose 'em. The only thing one can do is to avoid losing 'em in the first place.
Ek-ek
confused.gif Will Russia sell its Far East?

icon_rolleyes.gif I do not think so...................
Itchi
QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 5 2004, 02:33 PM)
QUOTE (Rad Raz @ Feb 5 2004, 12:53 PM)
and russia isn't stupid enough to sell their land with resouces in it...

They were stupid enough to sell Alaska...

I don't think that it was stupid to sell Alaska. Russia did not want to have too many conflict regions with the colonies of other European nations (Canada) like in the middle east (Persia). I don't believe Russia sold Alaska just for some Million $ but it was rather a diplomatic decision. Another exemple: Napoleon sold the french colonies (Lousiana) to the USA (at this time the french colonies were even bigger than the USA states).
DaMo
QUOTE (Itchi @ Feb 6 2004, 06:48 AM)
Another exemple: Napoleon sold the french colonies (Lousiana) to the USA (at this time the french colonies were even bigger than the USA states).

That's because they were strapped for cash.
Ogumo
QUOTE (DaMo @ Feb 6 2004, 07:03 AM)
QUOTE (Itchi @ Feb 6 2004, 06:48 AM)
Another exemple: Napoleon sold the french colonies (Lousiana) to the USA (at this time the french colonies were even bigger than the USA states).

That's because they were strapped for cash.

Exactly if they had not failed in haiti they would have kept that territory.
tongbao_vince
QUOTE (DaMo @ Feb 5 2004, 10:25 PM)
QUOTE (tongbao_vince @ Feb 5 2004, 06:44 PM)
Problem is that there are ALOT more Chinese in the RFE than Russians.

That is not true. The population of Chinese in the RFE is 300,000, while the Russian population is at least 6 million.

QUOTE (tongbao_vince @ Feb 5 2004, 06:44 PM)
Plus, Much of the RFE belongs to China before the Qing dynasty collapsed.

Correction: It belonged to China. It is now Russian territory, and while that is so, the extent of Chinese immigration into the RFE depends on them and their needs. I'm sure many modern states would also love to claim part of their old empires, but when you lose 'em, you lose 'em. The only thing one can do is to avoid losing 'em in the first place.

DaMo I think you have you numbers wrong but yes you were right with the 6.7 million non-Chinese in RFE. The Chinese population is 3.2 million. Also the Chinese are much more densely occupied in major cities compared to the Russians who are spaced out across some 3/4ths of Russia.
DaMo
http://english.people.com.cn/200401/01/eng...01_131677.shtml
QUOTE
Currently, there are around 100,000-200,000 permanent Chinese living in the Far East region as approved by Russian and Chinese governments.


Gene Expression: The Russian Far East, IQ, and Immigration
QUOTE
Today, according to regional experts, at least 200,000 Chinese live in Russia's Far East


http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200210/1...19_105345.shtml
QUOTE
Some 150,000 to 200,000 Chinese natives are now living in Russia compared with nearly 6 million living in the United States.
tongbao_vince
QUOTE
Russia's latest census has produced a bombshell result: over the past decade, the Chinese have emerged as the fastest growing ethnic minority in Russia. While official data of the October 2002 census will be published only next month, preliminary figures leaked to the press show that Russia's Chinese population has grown from just over 5,000 in the late 1980s to 3.26 million today. More than three-fourths of Chinese immigrants have settled down in Siberia and the Far East.

http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_144395.php


QUOTE
Russia’s Chinese population has grown from just a few thousand in 1989 to 3.26 million, according to unpublished results of a 2002 census. Most live in the Russian Far East, where only 6.7 million Russians remain today, working in markets, construction and agriculture.

http://www.mmorning.com/ArticleC.asp?Artic...34&CategoryID=7

I think this one says the total Chinese population and not just the RFE but still 'most of 3.2 million' should be over 150,000.


QUOTE
According to today's World Journal, Chinese immigrant population in Russian Far East has reached 3.2 million, up 65% in the last 10 years.
For reference, non-Chinese population of RFE totals 6.7 million.

http://www.centurychina.com/cgi-bin/anyboa...934&v=2&gV=0&p=


And I remember seeing 3 million on CNA's topic for RFE. I'm not sure which to believe.
DaMo
Well, People's Daily mentioned the lesser figure twice. And it's a major Chinese paper.

Maybe someone added an extra zero and made 300,000 into 3,000,000 :genius:

How can there be such grandly disparate figures?

By the way, some of your sources say that Russia's total Chinese population is 3.2 million, and some say that only the RFE's Chinese population is 3.2 million.
Ek-ek
icon_rolleyes.gif Russia will not sell its Far East!

It is a "Gold Mine" love2.gif for Russia!
Kulong
QUOTE (Ek-ek @ Feb 7 2004, 12:18 AM)
icon_rolleyes.gif Russia will not sell its Far East!

It is a "Gold Mine" love2.gif for Russia!

Yes, it's unfortunate for China.
tongbao_vince
Who knows.. It is very expensive to support 6 million people in the middle of nowhere. Food from the Ukraine is shipping through thousands of miles of snow to various small towns with small populations.

And it's not like China isn't paying for the land. I think Russia may sell China small pieces of land sooner or later.
Kulong
Just for fun, I made the following image which:



Here is a map of Qing dynasty China for comparison on how much of the RFE used to belong to China.



Here is a map of RFE.

Kulong
Another reason that Russia may not sell RFE to China is militarial advantages

直隸總督
Kulong, why did you leave out Mongolia and Eastern Kazakstan? icon_neutral.gif
Kulong
QUOTE (???? @ Feb 8 2004, 08:50 PM)
Kulong, why did you leave out Mongolia and Eastern Kazakstan?  icon_neutral.gif

Well, I don't wish for China, or ANY nation to obtain more territory, influence, and/or control by force *ahem* U.S.

If Mongolia wishes to rejoin China and Eastern Kazakstan would like to sell its land to China then I'd be more than happy. icon_smile.gif

But in this thread, we're just discussing RFE icon_smile.gif

But I'll whip something up just for you, haha.



Again, before anyone accusses me of supporting militarial expansion of China, these maps are just for fun and should not be taken seriously. The first map was made just to allow members who view this thread to get an idea of what would China look like if Russia were to sell RFE. The second map was just for ???? (I wish AF would use Unicdoe <sigh>)icon_smile.gif
karl kani
i strongly doubt Moscow would repeat its one of the most foolish decisions in hystory when it sold off Alaska to USA for 7.2million dollars. The russians would regret it forever and ever. i think they will never make that kind of mistake again.

QUOTE
Again, before anyone accusses me of supporting militarial expansion of China, these maps are just for fun and should not be taken seriously.


well man...although you made it for fun..i don't know this picture will be also considered as a fun to a russian..
just a short opinion.. embarassedlaugh.gif
直隸總督
QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 8 2004, 10:36 PM)
QUOTE (???? @ Feb 8 2004, 08:50 PM)
Kulong, why did you leave out Mongolia and Eastern Kazakstan?  icon_neutral.gif

Well, I don't wish for China, or ANY nation to obtain more territory, influence, and/or control by force *ahem* U.S.

If Mongolia wishes to rejoin China and Eastern Kazakstan would like to sell its land to China then I'd be more than happy. icon_smile.gif

But in this thread, we're just discussing RFE icon_smile.gif

But I'll whip something up just for you, haha.



Again, before anyone accusses me of supporting militarial expansion of China, these maps are just for fun and should not be taken seriously. The first map was made just to allow members who view this thread to get an idea of what would China look like if Russia were to sell RFE. The second map was just for ???? (I wish AF would use Unicdoe <sigh>)icon_smile.gif

by the way, can you replace the 5 star flag with my 鐵血太陽旗? lol thx
Kulong
QUOTE (karl kani @ Feb 8 2004, 11:57 PM)
well man...although you made it for fun..i don't know this picture will be also considered as a fun to a russian..
just a short opinion.. embarassedlaugh.gif

There are no Russian members on AF as far as I know. Also, I'm not trying to claim my maps as official maps nor am I "predicting the future". It's just all hypothetical. If we can't create hypothetical futures then all Sci-Fis would be illegal icon_smile.gif

QUOTE (????)
by the way, can you replace the 5 star flag with my ?????? lol thx




But I personally prefer the original colors. cool30.gif

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