As I understood the notion of the Buddhist "afterlife" from one of my Eastern religions classes, Buddhism has the notion of "anatta". This meant, if I remember right, that people do not possess eternal souls but are, instead, a collection of habits, memories, desires, etc. which together delude a person into thinking that he or she consists of a stable, lasting self. This false self holds together as a unit (a "soul" in Christian theology), and reincarnates in body after body as long as it believes itself to be "real". Therefore, this sense of individuality, or "self", is the source of all suffering and, therefore, the goal of Buddhism (Enlightenment) is to obtain release from this view that we --as a "soul"-- is real. In Buddhism, this means abandoning the false sense of self so that the collection of memories and impulses (the "soul") disintegrates, leaving nothing to reincarnate and hence nothing to experience pain.

In other words, total annihilation is the goal of Buddhism.

However, I have heard of something called "Pure Land" Buddhism in which there is a sort of "Heaven" for those who obtain Enlightenment. But this doesn't sound like "original" Buddhism as I understand it. I'm under the impression that "Pure Land" Buddhism is a Chinese "corruption" of "true" Buddhism. Any Buddhists on the board wish to chime in?

^Yep Skeptickid, just as their is no such thing as God right??? 2 2

^ Who is this "God" figure you speak of? Does his screenname start with s and end with n?

^Nah, Try starts with a J and ends in S

Anatta is the condition or concept of "soulnessness". In Buddhism, there is eternal emanating from Divine Essence (Paramatma). What is normally thought of as the "self" is in fact an agglomeration of constantly changing physical and mental constituents ("skandha"). Attachment to these skandas and the ego leads to misery. Detaching oneself from the skandas and ego leads to "anuttara-samyak-sambodhi" or perfect enlightenment. That is why Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara was able to acheive enlightenment and oversome suffering, because he realized the empty nature of the five skandas. That is explained in some depth by the Heart Sutra (xin jing)

The Western Pure land is not a Chinese corruption. It is emphasized in the Chan sects, but there is even a sutra devoted to it, "The Sutra of Amitabha as Discoursed by the Buddha" which is called in Chinese 佛說阿彌陀經. Furthermore, I believe your professor was mistaken when he said that it was for the enlightened. The state of englightenment is beyond the realm of the Pure Land, but many people who have accrued merit are allowed to reside in the Pure Land (極樂國) so that they can hear the Dharma there. According to the Sutra: "Because those who are born there assemble in one place with people whose goodness is unsurpassed."

I hope this answers your questions for now. I will try to expound more later (in a few days), but I am quite busy at the moment.

In Buddhism, there is no God, McMazzu. So, to answer your question, "yes." Why all the smiley faces? You find something funny? Seeing as how you are a closed-minded, bigotted Christian zealot, I wouldn't expect you to know such details of Buddhism. Now, are you going to contribute something to this thread? No? Then get lost.



Thanks 華夏無產! I may have misrepresented what my professor stated in my course regarding Pure Land Buddhism. I took that class many years ago and my memory may not be accurate.

But what is the ultimate goal of Buddhism? Of Enlightenment? In Buddhism, is there no soul? So that, "in the end," we all (as individual consciousness) cease to exist?

If I remember right, I was taught a metaphor regarding enlightenment. It is as if we are all on one side of a river. When we reach enlightenment we cross that river. NO ONE has ever come back from that side of the river so no one knows what's on the other side. While we "cease to exist" as we did on this side of the river, we may exist as some other form on the opposite side. But, since no one has ever returned to "our side" from the Enlightenment side of the river, the only way to describe what happens is total annihilation. Is that fairly accurate?

You ask if I find something funny, So to answer your question, "yes". And there goes that word again....I have no grudge against you Skeptickid...I already forgave you...Besides since when did you start getting serious on me all of a sudden eh? Also I will get lost, unlike you I will repsect the wish of the topic starter....BUT

I have to admit I gotta love that atheist sportsmanlike attitude.... 2 2

And, once again:

I don't know the names of places and ideas; I go to a Vietnamese Temple where people barely speak English. I'll try to explain it philosophically.

We cease to exist physically, but we still remain a presence of mind. Enlightenment is the point in which you are able to clear your mind of all thoughts. And when able to do so, one can seperate Mind from Body.

In reality, our bodies are not exactly ours. When we die, we lose our body. Buddhists view the human body merely as a host vessel to contain themselves. In the beginning of the creation of Earth, there was nothing. And likewise in the end there will be nothing. Nothing is permanent thus nothing is necessarily ours: body and other materialistic posessions.

That is why we seek to be free from all human desires:love, greed, jealousy, pity, etc for it ultimately causes suffering. Our body and possesions will not follow us as we ascend to the next plane. Thus the ultimate goal is to be free from everything, emotionally and physically.
Buddhists believe that leads to true happiness.

This is the state of Enlightenment. At this stage one sees the world and the universe as the same and one.

*Edit in Blue*

So, in your understanding, we (as a seperate consciousness) will continue to exist in some form even when Enlightenment has been reached?

Yes, we continute to exist on a seperate plane.

So, this seperate plane, what do we know about it, if anything?

This is very much contrary to what I was taught about "original" Buddhism (i.e. the Buddhism of the 6th century BCE). Are you of the understanding that your particular sect of Buddhism follows the "true" teachings of the Buddha?

I'll be interested to see what 華夏無產 may have to say.

Thanks for sharing!

There are many Buddhist sects because of cultural difference among the people. However the basic teachings of Buddhism still remain in all forms.

The seperate plane I am talking about is Nirvana, which literally translates to extinction. It refers to the extinction of human desires and the cycle of birth and rebirth. Yes, the goal of Buddhism is to remove ourselves from the suffering of this cycle of "Life."

Now the term Nirvana can be very ambiguous. Is it a state of mind or a place like Heaven? Buddha never answered this question. He explained it simply as a state of freedom. However, one can assume that one exists in some form in the state of Nirvana.

Perhaps this article will explain your question because apparently I'm not able to.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/buddhism/essays/nibbana.htm

What in the name of hell are you saying yes to.

That sounds an awful lot like that metaphor I wrote of in a previous post about crossing the river. On one side is the Pure Land and on the other is Nirvana. No one ever has come back from Nirvana (because how can one who as extinquished their "self" and is outside the cycle of birth and rebirth ever come back?).



Again, thanks! I'll look that site over when I get a chance!

Once one has reached Nirvana, there is no return. However a group of Buddhist found this to be a selfish act: not helping others. Thus the Mahayana sect was born. Those who have reached enlightenment have a choice of either entering Nirvana or to return to help others who have not yet achieved enlightenment. We call these enlightened ones Bodhisativas.

When a person becomes enlightened, that person can enter Nirvana never to return or put their salvation on hold to help others achieve the same.

When you say "or to return" what do you mean? One can reach enlightenment on earth right? So when you talk about entering Nirvana do you mean an enlightened one can choose enter Nirvana by giving up their body before their natural time has come (meaning the body would die) or stay and become a Bodhisativas? (in Mahayana beliefs that is) Or do you mean once an enlightened one dies a natural death they make this decision on some plane between Nirvana and earth? If they make this decision after death they would need to have a soul, spirit or some thing to rationalize with which goes against what I understood from Skeps post... hummm very confusing... this is what I hear from those who search for enlightenment as well "it is very confusing"...

Not to put Buddhism down or anything but it seems Buddhist don't have any answers to these questions making it kind of ironic that they search for something they don't know.

This is just my observation though, I know nothing about Buddhism so no need to get offended.

Cheers

I always thought Nirvana was not a place to enter, not like a blissful setting out of the realm of this world, but merely a state of consciousness of the human mind where one experience the highest emotional feelings?

I heard there are attempts to achieve this by using brain-wave technology to alter certain states of the human brain into a intense relax and laser-like focused mode similar to that of an experience yoga meditator, all done with devices using stero headphones. lol. However, is this anything similar to the enlightenment state monks try to achieve?

My interpretation is Nirvana is a state of mind (where a person can experience it right here on Earth). He/she is not attach to anything emotionally that's putting him/her down - but a progessive state where one's mind endures pure happiness, spiritual uplifting, like the highest genious.

If Nirvana is not a place but a state of mind, then how long does it last while you're still conscious?

If Nirvana is a place (but not a state of mind), was it something discoverd or was it invented?

Just my 2-cent.

Yes, this is how I was taught the subject as well. I remember the discussion of Mahayana and Bodhisativas. Pretty cool stuff, really. Sheer specuation, of course, without a shred of evidence but that's one of the beauties of Buddhism, in my opinion: it truely is "faith-based." There are few, if any, historical claims for the "truth" of Buddhism.

No one ever came back to provide "scientific" proof of the afterlife. If it's that you seek, you shall never find it.

Buddhism follows a course of logical reasoning, which in my mind is the closest any of us can get.
Nivarna is not the same as nihilism. Buddha refuted nihilist claims that 'nothing' existed. If you think about it, the idea is crazy.

The concept of emptiness is extremely hard to grasp, impossible from casual posts such as these. Bear in mind that Buddha taught "Form is Emptiness"... but (also) "Emptiness IS form"!!!

This is not a nihilistic stance, as a nihilist would refute form per se. So if nothing exists, then how come we're here at all?

The journey to Nirvana, isn't about getting from A to B. One does not open the gate and walk in, like a Christian paradise. It is about the state beyond the destruction of the three poisons.

The three poisons are Samsara, the ego etc. By letting go of these, we let go of the illusory self. The prospect of this is scary, as it's all we've ever known. Perhaps that's why many people worry that they will face destruction.

I hope this helps. I'm no expert, it's just my unauthorized opinion.

Which begs the question: Why believe there is any afterlife at all, then? What evidence do we have that warrants such belief? Desire?

I disagree. Reincarnation is the only theory of the afterlife with scientific backup.

There are hundreds of accounts where children (and sometimes adults) vividly remember intricate details of their past lives.

^ Even if that's so, isn't it said that one forgets everything about his or her past life after the wheel of reincarnation?

Regarding the "nihilism" that is percieved by the Heart Sutra, the phrase often translated as "emptiness is not different from form" (written in Sanskrit, rupam sunyam sunyataiva rupam; in Tibetan gZugs sTong-pa'o. sTong-pa-nyid gZugs-so; in Chinese, si bu yi kong, kong bu yi si) is often interpreted by many liberal American pseudo-Buddhists to mean that "there are no absolutes". While Buddhism does teach that much of life is merely a distraction (ref, "Sutra in 42 Parts", Part 42) this particular verse does not treat this idea in a moral context.

Regarding that verse itself, "Emptiness is not different from form," the nature of the phrase in the context of the entire sutra shatters the annihilationist view of the pseudo-buddhists and of the cultivators of the Two Vehicles. Since the Sutra entreats the Chan/Zen attitude toward the ego and mind, the verse actually represents the condition of enlightenment, not the current condition which is a result of rebirht. Because in his cultivation the externalist is not aware that the body is produced from karmic activity, and that karmic activity arises from the mind, he goes through cycles of rebirth, turning about without cease. Because they do not succeed in understanding the principle of the retributional interaction of cause and effect throughout the three periods of time, they then say that after a person dies, his pure energy returns to heaven, his turbid energy returns to earth, and his singular numinous true nature returns to the great emptiness.

The meaning is expounded on a bit later by Sakyamuni Buddha's discourse with Sariputra. Without characteristics one object cannot be seen as separate or different from another object. The characteristics, for example, of a 'cup' is what defines a cup as different and distinct from a 'plate', and so forth. Thus, the inherent non-distinction (alaksana) of phenomena derives from the nonduality of the absolute state, the Supreme Reality (dharmata). Supreme Reality, in the form of the Law of Heaven, is ultimately the only reality, and this singular reality is Transcendental Wisdom. Another term would be Nondual Gnosis (jnana advaya).
=======
Regarding skeptic's questions on the inherent "cosmology" represented through Buddhism:

According to the Sutra of Amitabha, there exist many "worlds" in which different Buddhas exist and preach the Dharma. While these worlds are inaccessible to us, they are on an equivalent plane of existance, since the beings in that world are mostly products of karmic rebirth.

In the grand scheme of things, there is the concept of "triloka" or (in chinese) San-Jie, which means three worlds.

The First World is The Realm of Desire. It is is inhabited by humans, animals, demigods, six types of gods, ghosts, and ten types of demons, and includes the current world, all the hells, and the ten Heavens of Desire.

The Second is the Realm of Form. It is above the lust world and contains bodies, places and things, all mystic and wonderful. It consists of 18 heavens, including the Heavens of Four Zen.

Realm of Formlessness (Sanskrit word is Arupadhatu) of pure spirit, where there are no bodies and matters to which human terms would apply, but where the mind dwells in mystic contemplation; its extent is indefinable, but it is conceived of in Four Stages/Places of Emptiness in the immaterial world. It has four heavens, in which the Sphere/heaven of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is the highest.

The Pure Land is beyond the three realms, but the beings in the Pure Land have not yet reached the fruition of enlightenment (though many will in their next birth).

Very astute point Sir. I guess if you hope Buddhism will be the answer to your "desire" for a cosy afterlife, you are in for a bit of a shock because suijen is right:

Indeed. The tape is erased, so to speak. The mind is like a leaf in the wind. The mode of your rebirth utterly beyond your control. Who would "desire" that?

I know mate. You and I may take this as valid proof, but try getting a scientist to "scientifically" prove it, let alone the general public to accept it. You'd be gutted to discover how many people would laugh in your face - I know, they've laughed in mine.

I'd just like to complement everyone on the high quality of this thread.

Tuan

This is where faith and spirituality come in to attract more buddhist followers.

Well, most (I'm estimating 95%) of the accounts of past life memories are from small children who have yet to reach teenagehood. Young children still have fresh minds, untainted by real world experiences, and can slightly remember minute but irrefutable details of their past lives. It is suggested that our memories are reset when we are reborn (as most of us do), however we can't just ignore this uncanny phenomena.

*Edit* "...only feelings, impressions, and the karma that is passed on goes through the birth and rebirth cycle" http://www.biblebelievers.com/mowery_Buddhism.html



They can laugh all they want, their opinions don't alter the evidence that's presented. Galileo was shunned from the church and public, imprisoned in his own home. He was a laughing stock to everyone. Was he crazy to think that our galazy was geocentric and there were other planets out there? Moreover same goes for Darwin and his theory of evolution and Robert Hooke and his discovery of bacteria. All of these men were believed to be crazed, however eventually it was proved otherwise. They were lunatics in their times but legends in ours.



Agreed

How can you take accounts of past lives as proof when you also say that one forgets everything about his or her past life when they are reincarnated?
Just to quote you once more: "Indeed. The tape is erased, so to speak."

I'm not looking for scientific proof, but your statements contradict each other.

Pure Land is a from Amitbha buddha. Hes classified as one of the nirvana buddhas, but b4 he went to Nirvana he stated:
Those who say my name 10 times and doesnt come to my place (pure land) may i never set my foot in nirvana.
He was one of the buddhas that thought that there were more ways to reach nirvana, this as one of them. There are other gates and most have become religiouns (tantra, varijya and the book of pali cannon.)
As in my opinion he taught himself as a god that could make ppl come to his pure land. Shi Jo bases their teaching on that, that chanting his name will lead u to his pure land, sure u have to do some other tantra but its still amidas word that is in the centre.

Yes, I've also looked into the research of reincarnation and it IS scientific. It's just not popular because of probably prejiduce against afterlife as being religious more than scientific.

There is irrefutable evidence that will turn any skeptic into a believer of reincarnation. Alot of books though on this subject are written in scientific jargon and wouldn't be understood by common folk.

About the subject of Nirvana and Samsara, as I understand from Dzogchen or Tibetan Buddhism, they are creations of the mind. Here is something I found in a short text by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche which was originally written in Tibetan:

In the Kun-byed rgyal-po, a tantra of rDzogs-chen, it is said that: 'The Mind is that which creates both Samsara and Nirvana, so one needs to know this King which creates everything!' We say we transmigrate in the impure and illusory vision of
Samsara, but in reality, it's just our mind that is transmigrating. And then again, as far as pure Enlightenment is concerned, it's only our own mind, purified, that realizes it. Our mind is the basis of everything, and from our mind everything
arises, Samsara and Nirvana, ordinary sentient beings and Enlightened Ones.

So make a new thread, then.

Shiro, there's no contradiction. The vast majority of people will not remember anything of their past lives. The cases rapappa refers to are exceptional.

In any case they do not, alone, provide conclusive proof that Buddha was right. Hinduism also has reincarnation. In order to understand what makes Buddha's word unique, one has to go deeper.

The illusory ego is destroyed at death. The Tibetan schools provide a detailed description of death, the intermediate state and rebirth, if you are interested. It is compelling and well worth the effort.

^ okay, that's what I thought you meant, but I wasn't sure from your other post
mainly the "The tape is erased" part

I don't know what you think about the soul, or spiritual energy (or whatever you like to call it), or WHY we are reincarnated, but that deserves a seperate thread, so I won't ask here.

Delete. nm, I'll make another thread on this.


And shiro, I think I might have answered your questions in the threads I just posted.

^ yeah, I'm reading it right now.
There's no answer about "What is a soul?" but the rest seems interesting.