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malay_ako
HTTP://MEMBERS.ASIANAVENUE.COM/PNOI_LYK_HOI

THERE IS ONLY ONE MALAY ETHNICITY WHO ULTIMATELY ORIGINATE ON THE ISLAND OF TAIWAN, THE BIRTH PLACE OF THE MALAY ETHNCIITY AND OUR NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE/LANGUAGE. OUR MALAY ANCESTORS EVENTUALLY SPREAD OUT, WE ORIGINALLY HAD ONE NATIVE CULTURE AND LANGUAGE CALLED AUSTRONESIAN, BUT AS A RESULT OF SPREADING OUT OVER THE VAST PACIFIC AND INDIAN OCEANS WE BECAME INFLUENCED BY FOREIGN CULTURES SUCH AS INDIAN, BUDDHIST, ISLAM, AND CHRISTIANITY.

THE MALAYS INFLUENCED BY HINDU WERE THE GREAT CHAMPA OF PRESENT DAY VIETNAM, THE EARLY JAVANESE KINGDOMS, (AND SOME OTHERS) BUT NOW, PRESENT DAY BALI IS THE ONLY SURVIVING HINDU CULTURE OF THE MALAY.

THE MALAYS INFLUENCED BY BUDDHISM WAS THE MALAYS OF THE SAILENDRA KINGDOM OF JAVA (AND SOME OTHERS) AND THE SRIVIJAYA KINGDOM WHICH WAS IN SUMATRA ISLAND. BUT THEY EVENTUALLY COLLASPED AND THE CITIZENS FLED TO THE CENTRAL ISLANDS OF THE PHILIPPINES WHICH TODAY IS KNOWN AS THE "VISAYAN" REGION.

ISLAMIC MALAYS CONSTITUTE THE MAJOIRTY OF MALAYS TODAY. BUT THE CONVERSION TO ISLAM HAPPENED ONLY RECENTLY AROUND THE LATE 15TH CENTURY AS A RESULT OF MUSLIM INDIAN TRADERS WHO PUERSUADED US TO BECOME MUSLIM AND EVENTUALLY MOST MALAY DID BECAUSE IT BECAME SO "POPULAR." UNFORTUNATELY ALL THE PAST KINGDOMS OF THE MALAY ARCHIPELAGO HAVE BEEN FORGOTTEN. BUT OUR EARLY TEMPLES STILL STAND SUCH AS THOSE OF CHAMPA, BOROBUDUR, PRAMBANAN, AND OTHERS AND REMIND US OF OUR GREAT PAST EMPIRES THAT RIVALED EVEN THOSE OF CAMBODIA.

THE MALAYS INFLUENCED BY CHRSITIANITY ARE MAINLY THOSE OF THE PHILIPIPNE ISLANDS. THIS IS BECAUSE THE SPANIARDS SAILED TO OUR ISLANDS AROUND 1521 AND BEGAN TO CONQUER US AND FORCE US TO PRACTICE SPANISH CULTURE AND WESTERN RELIGION. AND SO TODAY THE MAJOIRTY OF THE MALAYS OF THE PHILIPPINES ARE CHRISTIAN. BUT THERE ARE SOME UNCONQUERABLE TRIBES SUCH AS THE IGOROT OF LUZON ISLAND, AND THE LUMAD OF MINDANAO ISLAND, AND EVEN THE MUSLIM MORO OF THE SULU ARCHIPELAGO. THEY HAVE SURVIVED THE ATTEMPTED SPANISH COLONIZATION OF THE SPANIARDS, AND EVEN THE ATTEMPTS OF AMERICAN COLONISTS. THEY HAVE FOUGHT FOR 500+ YEARS AND HAVE NEVER LOST THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS OR PRE-COLONIAL CULTURES. BUT UNFORTUNATELY, TODAY THEY CONSTITUTE ONLY THE MINORITY OF THE PHILIPPINE ISLANDS AS ONLY A SMALL FEW OF MALAYS OF THE PHILIPPINES WERE SUCCESSFUL IN BEING UNCONQUERED, WHEREAS THE MAJOIRTY OF MALAY OF THE PHILIPPINES WERE CONQUERED AND EVENTUALLY ADOPTED SPANISH CULTURE AND CHRISTIAN RELIGION WHICH IS MERELY MIXED WITH PRE-COLONIAL AUSTRONESIAN ROOT CULTRUE AND AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGE.

BUT THE UNCONQUERED MALAY OF THE PHILIPPINES REMIND US TO OUR GREAT LINK TO OTHER MALAYS ON OTHER ISLANDS OUTSIDE THE PHILIPPINES. AND THEY REMIND US THAT WE ARE ALL LINKED AS 1 MALAY ETHNCIITY, AND OUR LANGUAGES, NO MATTER WHAT ISLAND YOUR ON, FROM MADAGASCAR TO EASTER ISLAND IS RELATED AND THE SAME, AND OUR NATIVE* CULTURE CALLED AUSTRONESIAN IS THE SAME, AND THESE THINGS STILL EXIST TO THIS DAY ONLY FOREIGN THINGS HAVE INFLUENCED THEM.


BUT THERE WERE ALSO OTHER MALAYS WHO WERE SPARED FOREIGN INFLUENCE AND THEY WERE THE ONES WHO LEFT FROM THE PHILIPPINES AND THE HOMELAND OF THE MALAY ARCHIPELAGO. AND THEY WERE THE MALAYS WHO SAILED FAR INTO THE EAST OF THE PACIFIC OCEAN AND EVENTUALLY BECAME THE "POLYNESIAN" AFTER THEY MIXED WITH THE PAPUAN PEOPLE THEY FOUND ALREADY INHABITING THE REGIOIN. BUT STILL THE MALAY PEOPLE PRESERVERED AND CONTINUE TO PRACTICE A NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE, AND SPEAK THE NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGE TO THIS DAY. AND THEY WERE ABLE TO FORM GREAT ISLAND KINGDOMS SUCH AS THE KINGDOM OF TONGA AND THE KINGDOM OF HAWAII.. THEY ARE WHAT WE USED TO BE. BECAUSE THEY COME FROM US. AND THEY WERE NOT INFLUENCED FOR SO LONG.

AND SOME MALAY SAILED WEST FROM THE SULU OF THE PHILIPINES, AND BORNEO IN ANCIENT TIMES, AND THEY LANDED ON THE ISLAND OF MADAGASCAR AND THEY, TOO, WERE UNINFLUENCED FOR SO LONG AND SPEAK THE NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGE AND PRACTICE THE NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE. THEY TOO FORMED GREAT KINGDOMS, SUCH AS THE KINGDOM OF IMERINA WHICH UNIFIED THE WHOLE ISLAND UNDER ONE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE AND ONE AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGE CALLED "MALAGASY." SO EVEN IF THE ISLAND IS FOUND IN THE AFRICAN REGION, THE PEOPLE AND THE CULTURE IS OF ASIAN DESCENT. ONLY HAS THE IMMIGRATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE DIVERSIFED IT.

ONE OF THE GREATEST NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTUREL PRACTICES THAT SURVIED TO THIS DAY IS OUR MATRIARCHIAL SOCIETIES AND OUR RESPECT TO WOMEN AS WE LOOK AT WOMEN AS CLOSE TO GODLINESS AND GIVE THEM FREEDOM IN OUR MALAY SOCIETY, EQUAL STATUS, AND SOMETIMES EVEN GREATER THAN THE MAN'S. YOU CAN SEE THIS TODAY AS THERE HAVE BEEN MANY WOMEN PRESIDENTS IN THE PHILIPPINES. AND THE PHILIPPINE'S HAS HAD THE GREATEST WOMEN'S SUFFERAGE THAN MOST COUNTRIES OUTSIDE THE MALAY WORLD.

ALSO, THE MATRIARCHIAL CUSTOMS OF THE NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE SURVIVE TO THIS DAY FOUND IN THE MINANGKABAU TRIBE OF INDONESIA. THEY ARE THE LARGEST MATRIARCHIAL TRIBE OF THE WORLD, WHERE WOMEN RULE, OWN PROPERTY, MAKE LAWS, AND HAVE THE POWER IN MARRIAGE. BUT THEY ARE ALSO MUSLIM PEOPLE. SO IT SHOWS THAT THE MALAY HAS REDEFINED WHAT ISLAM SHOULD BE. THE ISLAM OF THE MALAY IS NOT THE SAME AS THE ISLAM OF THE ARAB IN THE MIDLEEAST. AND IT IS BEAUTIFUL. BECAUSE OUR NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE, PRE-ISLAMIC BUDDHIST, AND HINDU CULTURE HAS MADE IT BEAUTIFUL. AND TO MUSLIM FUNDALMENTALISTS AND RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS... IT IS NOT WRONG, IT IS PRESERVATION OF OUR MALAY HERITAGE!!!!!! AND WE DO NOT DESIRE TO TURN OUR BACK ON OUR NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN AND PRE-ISLAMIC HINDU/BUDDHIST CULTURES AND TRADITIONS!!!!
Menikani
I think you meant to post this in the Malaysian or Indonesian forum. I think you got the wrong forum, because this is a Cambodian/Khmer Chat and they are not Malays.
Doan Du
Would you say that Vietnamese were Malays who were sinicized to a certain degree?
malay_ako
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 25 2004, 10:05 PM)
Would you say that Vietnamese were Malays who were sinicized to a certain degree?

no, the Vietnamese ethnicity originated in the Northern Vietnam area, they were a vassal state of China who gained their own independence, and formed their own kingdom and eventually they migrated into the Southeast Asian region to expand their kingdom and acquire new territory. The land of present day central Vietnamese coast had always been ancestral territory of the Kingdom of Champa (land of the Chams who are of the Malay Ethnicity).

Vietnamese eventually conquered the Champa kingdom (Khmer attacks also helped destroy Champa, but they would pay for that in the end because the Vietnamese would eventually get possession of Khmer Krom without Champa as a buffer state between Vietnam and Cambodia to limit Vietnamese mass migration and displacement of the khmer in Khmer Krom, this is their “bad karma.”)

But anyway, the Vietnamese took over the land of the Champa and displaced the Cham people. Vietnamese are NOT Malay people, they are merely the conquerors of the Cham Malays. The Vietnamese are invaders who speak a totally different language, Cham Malays speak an Austronesian language. And the Vietnamese have a different culture which is heavily influenced by China. The Cham Malays have a Native Austronesian culture mixed with Hinduism & Islam.

The only link the Vietnamese Ethnicity has to the Cham Malays is the Central Coast which the Vietnamese have the legal “deed” to. The Vietnamese have legal procession of Ancestral Cham Malay territory and the other link the Vietnamese have to Malay is the presence of the Cham Malay Minority of Vietnam who still choose to live in their ancestral lands. I believe some Chams are currently fighting to retake their land in a freedom movement.

http://flagspot.net/flags/vn-aspir.html#chams

some khmer are also fighting for khmer krom freedom movement.

Vietnamese did not “sinicize,” the Cham Malays were the ones who had to accommodate to Vietnamese dominance,.

ps: are you vietnamese?
tqt
The Malaysian and the Cham are relatives of the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese language shares about 150 basic words with the Cham and the Malaysian language. Remember, basic words can't be borrowed.

The Khmer are also relative of the Vietnamese. The Khmer and the Vietnamese languages share a lot of common basic words but the closest relative of the Vietnamese is the Muong people. The Muong and the Vietnamese languages share about 75% of the basic vocabs.
Kambolizhuz
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 26 2004, 07:08 PM)
The Malaysian and the Cham are relatives of the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese language shares about 150 basic words with the Cham and the Malaysian language. Remember, basic words can't be borrowed.

I agree with malay_ako, I don't think they are related because Vietnam is in southeast Asia in the 14th century and language can change like the Vietnamese alphabets were more like the CHinese before it wasn't always romanized. An Cham don't really look like Vietnamese, I read that they are more likely to taller, darker, and with shaper features, like straight nose, and etc.
angkorwat19
I got a feeling this malay_ako guy really hates khmer people...
QUOTE
Vietnamese eventually conquered the Champa kingdom (Khmer attacks also helped destroy Champa, but they would pay for that in the end because the Vietnamese would eventually get possession of Khmer Krom without Champa as a buffer state between Vietnam and Cambodia to limit Vietnamese mass migration and displacement of the khmer in Khmer Krom, this is their “bad karma.”)

dude, listen to what you're saying... bad karma?, who gave asylum to the chams when vietnamese military were taking over? throughout the 14th to 17th century, the chams were given refuge by the khmer kings. now, the khmer and cham people live side by side peacefully, cambodians even gave chams their own province call Kompong Cham. rethink your statement and stop being so damn hypocritical... you idiot, "your people" filipino malays had nothing to do with the chams. during the time of war with vietnamese,khmers and chams, the filipinos were being assimilated into spanish culture so stop putting up non sense of how "your people" when "your people" had nothing to do with the chams in MAINLAND SEASIA. kampuchea krom was given to the vietnamese without a written consent, so in othe words they were given to them illegally. i'm pissed to hear you say about that karma thing when these khmers had nothing to do with the fall of CHAMPA. YOU NEED A REALITY CHECK!!
Doan Du
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 26 2004, 11:27 AM)
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 25 2004, 10:05 PM)
Would you say that Vietnamese were Malays who were sinicized to a certain degree?

no, the Vietnamese ethnicity originated in the Northern Vietnam area, they were a vassal state of China who gained their own independence, and formed their own kingdom and eventually they migrated into the Southeast Asian region to expand their kingdom and acquire new territory. The land of present day central Vietnamese coast had always been ancestral territory of the Kingdom of Champa (land of the Chams who are of the Malay Ethnicity).

Vietnamese eventually conquered the Champa kingdom (Khmer attacks also helped destroy Champa, but they would pay for that in the end because the Vietnamese would eventually get possession of Khmer Krom without Champa as a buffer state between Vietnam and Cambodia to limit Vietnamese mass migration and displacement of the khmer in Khmer Krom, this is their “bad karma.”)

But anyway, the Vietnamese took over the land of the Champa and displaced the Cham people. Vietnamese are NOT Malay people, they are merely the conquerors of the Cham Malays. The Vietnamese are invaders who speak a totally different language, Cham Malays speak an Austronesian language. And the Vietnamese have a different culture which is heavily influenced by China. The Cham Malays have a Native Austronesian culture mixed with Hinduism & Islam.

The only link the Vietnamese Ethnicity has to the Cham Malays is the Central Coast which the Vietnamese have the legal “deed” to. The Vietnamese have legal procession of Ancestral Cham Malay territory and the other link the Vietnamese have to Malay is the presence of the Cham Malay Minority of Vietnam who still choose to live in their ancestral lands. I believe some Chams are currently fighting to retake their land in a freedom movement.

http://flagspot.net/flags/vn-aspir.html#chams

some khmer are also fighting for khmer krom freedom movement.

Vietnamese did not “sinicize,” the Cham Malays were the ones who had to accommodate to Vietnamese dominance,.

ps: are you vietnamese?

Yes, I am a Viet.

I was referring to the Malay race who migrated out of the Tibetan Plateau and populated what is now Southern China and Indochina. The Han came much later to colonize the area.

The Vietnamese together with the Koreans and Japanese share many Malay characteristics such as wearing wooden sabots, sitting on the floor and growing wet rice.

Vietnamese vocabulary contains many Malay words (tanga or thang, songa or song, bonga or bong), Vietnamese folklores contain many old Malay tales (the bull and the calf), and old Vietnamese society was matrilineal (our women were the first to rise up against Han colonists).

Many people from Central Vietnam as well as those in nearby Laos even have the bamboo dance similar to the one in the Philippines.
malay_ako
QUOTE (angkorwat19 @ Feb 26 2004, 07:57 PM)
I got a feeling this malay_ako guy really hates khmer people...

dude, listen to what you're saying... bad karma?, who gave asylum to the chams when vietnamese military were taking over? throughout the 14th to 17th century, the chams were given refuge by the khmer kings. now, the khmer and cham people live side by side peacefully, cambodians even gave chams their own province call Kompong Cham. rethink your statement and stop being so damn hypocritical...

you know what angkorwat19? half the things i written on here are direct quote or rewritten statements of what other people have said. Im guessing your on khmerconnection forums right? well do you remember in the "History of Nokore Phnom (Funan ) Kampuchea" disscussion where KhmerCasanova said:

"There is a lot of problems with Funan. From a historical view there is as lot problems to prove that they were Khmer because the first inscription found in Khmer is dated to 611. Many historian view Funan as pre Khmer kingdom."

"Khmer fought many wars with Champa and our ancestor help the Viets destroy that country. Khmer attack one side and the Vietnamese from the other. So I guess it`s our Karma because if Champa was still here it will serve as a buffer state between Srok Khmer and Vietnam."

so dont be angry with me, it is not even origianlly my statement, it was the words of your own khmer brother who is not baised and think too good of himself to acknowledge his own people's wrongdoings, do you honestly beleive your khmer ethnicity is perfect and never made any atrocities?
Kambolizhuz
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 26 2004, 11:15 PM)
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 26 2004, 11:27 AM)
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 25 2004, 10:05 PM)
Would you say that Vietnamese were Malays who were sinicized to a certain degree?

no, the Vietnamese ethnicity originated in the Northern Vietnam area, they were a vassal state of China who gained their own independence, and formed their own kingdom and eventually they migrated into the Southeast Asian region to expand their kingdom and acquire new territory. The land of present day central Vietnamese coast had always been ancestral territory of the Kingdom of Champa (land of the Chams who are of the Malay Ethnicity).

Vietnamese eventually conquered the Champa kingdom (Khmer attacks also helped destroy Champa, but they would pay for that in the end because the Vietnamese would eventually get possession of Khmer Krom without Champa as a buffer state between Vietnam and Cambodia to limit Vietnamese mass migration and displacement of the khmer in Khmer Krom, this is their “bad karma.”)

But anyway, the Vietnamese took over the land of the Champa and displaced the Cham people. Vietnamese are NOT Malay people, they are merely the conquerors of the Cham Malays. The Vietnamese are invaders who speak a totally different language, Cham Malays speak an Austronesian language. And the Vietnamese have a different culture which is heavily influenced by China. The Cham Malays have a Native Austronesian culture mixed with Hinduism & Islam.

The only link the Vietnamese Ethnicity has to the Cham Malays is the Central Coast which the Vietnamese have the legal “deed” to. The Vietnamese have legal procession of Ancestral Cham Malay territory and the other link the Vietnamese have to Malay is the presence of the Cham Malay Minority of Vietnam who still choose to live in their ancestral lands. I believe some Chams are currently fighting to retake their land in a freedom movement.

http://flagspot.net/flags/vn-aspir.html#chams

some khmer are also fighting for khmer krom freedom movement.

Vietnamese did not “sinicize,” the Cham Malays were the ones who had to accommodate to Vietnamese dominance,.

ps: are you vietnamese?

Yes, I am a Viet.

I was referring to the Malay race who migrated out of the Tibetan Plateau and populated what is now Southern China and Indochina. The Han came much later to colonize the area.

The Vietnamese together with the Koreans and Japanese share many Malay characteristics such as wearing wooden sabots, sitting on the floor and growing wet rice.

Vietnamese vocabulary contains many Malay words (tanga or thang, songa or song, bonga or bong), Vietnamese folklores contain many old Malay tales (the bull and the calf), and old Vietnamese society are matrilineal (our women were the first to rise up against Han colonists).

Many people from Central Vietnam as well as those in nearby Laos even have the bamboo dance similar to the one in the Philippines.

I am not saying this as a fact but those ppl you are describing esp. in central Asia, sound like the Cham to me. Do they follow the religion Islam?
Kambolizhuz
I didn't mean Central Asia, I meant central Vietnam. You know north Vietnam used to belong to Champa? So that might explain why the Cham are in central Vietnam, probably the communist drove them down there.
malay_ako
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 26 2004, 11:15 PM)
Yes, I am a Viet.

I was referring to the Malay race who migrated out of the Tibetan Plateau and populated what is now Southern China and Indochina.  The Han came much later to colonize the area.

The Vietnamese together with the Koreans and Japanese share many Malay characteristics such as wearing wooden sabots, sitting on the floor and growing wet rice.

Vietnamese vocabulary contains many Malay words (tanga or thang, songa or song, bonga or bong), Vietnamese folklores contain many old Malay tales (the bull and the calf), and old Vietnamese society are matrilineal (our women were the first to rise up against Han colonists).

Many people from Central Vietnam as well as those in nearby Laos even have the bamboo dance similar to the one in the Philippines.

What malay was that who came to southern china from tibet? Are you refering to the Nagas of Nagaland?

i didnt know much about the relationship of the Vietnamese with the Malays. I guess you claim brotherhood with us malay if you wish. but there is more to being a Malay then having a few similiarities with our Native Austronesian culture. Besides Vietnamese have their own history that i think most viets rather claim then say they are distant descendants of Malay. but there is nothing wrong with showing relationship and how we influence each other in the past, because we will learn that we are friends and not enemies beerchug.gif

i will jsut tell you an intersting fact:


Some linguists believe the Tai languages probably deserve a place within an expanded version of [the Austronesian languge family], though others favor the Sino-Tibetan family to include them.

The languages of the Tai family are found in Southeast Asia. Britannica claims this language family was formerly considered to be part of the Sino-Tibetan languages, but that most of the similarities are incidental and that the relationship appears to be false. It also mentions suggestions that the Tai are closer to the Austronesian languages.


south-western group
Thai or Siamese (Thailand)
Lao or Laotian (Laos, Thailand)
Shan language (Burma)
Yuan language (Thailand)

central and northern groups (China)
Nung
Tho
Kam-Sui group
Kadai group (China, Yunnan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_languages
malay_ako
want to learn another intersting factiod? icon_smile.gif

"The Mongols, Koreans, and Japanese speak languages that belongs to the Altaic language group."

There is speculation whether the Japanese Language should be cateogrized as part of the Altaic language family:

Japanese vocabulary seems to contain many elements of Malayo-Polynesian or Austronesian (a proto-language for which we have no records). Research began in this area with the important paper by Matsumoto Nobuhiro in 1928 on "Le Japonais et les langues austro-asiatiques" and following this the work of Otto Dempwolff (1934-38) and lzui Hisanosuke (1952). Murayama (1974) pointed out the large number of similarities between the morphology of Japanese and Oceanic languages and in a seminal study (1975) succeeded in explaining the etymologies of the entire Japanese numeral system (1-1,000) by means of Proto-Austronesian morphemes.

Kawamoto Takao (1985) is currently the leading proponent of the Austronesian connection. Based upon fieldwork in the Pacific, Kawamoto (1976) reconstructed the proto-system of all the Japanese verb combinations based on the incomplete reconstructions of Susumu Ono (1953) and indicated the following shared features: presence of phonemic accent, tendency to disyllabism and canonical morphemic shapes in Old Japanese and Proto-Austronesian, syllables closed with special phonemes only, vowel harmony, agglutination, SVO and adjective-noun order, question forms made by adding a particle to a statement, derivation by vowel mutation, vocalization or nasalization, plurality expressed by affixation and reduplication and other shared features.

In the vocabulary stock, particularly those items dealing with marine life, many convincing comparisons have been made suggesting lexical contact between Japanese (J) and proto-Austronesian (PAN): J ika `cuttlefish` and PAN ikan `fish`; J hana `flower` and PAN buna `flower`. Additionally, many of the so-called `vulgarisms` of the Fudoki texts have been linked with Austronesian, in particular: OJ (Old Japanese) isa `whale` from PAN i`ti ; OJ fisi `sandbar` from PAN pat`iy.

http://202.39.225.133/e2001fes/taitung/E12_02.html

Now... since the Austronesian people traveled and settled almost all islands between madagascar and easter island in ancient times, i doubt the malay would disregard the Japanese islands
Doan Du
QUOTE (Kambolizhuz @ Feb 26 2004, 11:27 PM)
I didn't mean Central Asia, I meant central Vietnam. You know north Vietnam used to belong to Champa? So that might explain why the Cham are in central Vietnam, probably the communist drove them down there.

No, Kambo.

This happens a long time ago. Champa ceased to exist in the 13th Century, a victim of Vietnamese King Le thanh Tong.

To be fair, Vietnam and Champa were locked in a deadly fight for survival with Vietnam losing badly. The powerful Cham warrior Che Bong Nga launched 10 invasions, sacked Hanoi 3 times and drove the Vietnamese Court into hiding. This was considered to be one of the major crises in the history of Dai Viet. As he fled, the Viet King Ho quy Ly wept and uttered these words "The enemy is stronger than we are, and resistance is impossible."

At this crucial moment, it was due to a stroke of luck that the Vietnamese discovered Che Bong Nga's warship among hundreds. They concentrated cannon fire on it, killing him and thus stopping the victorious Cham march. The Chams weren't some helpless victims that some Cambodians made them out to be just to denounce Vietnamese aggression.
tqt
QUOTE
This happens a long time ago. Champa ceased to exist in the 13th Century, a victim of Vietnamese King Le thanh Tong.


The Cham were weaken after 1473 when the Vietnamese launched a massive invasion of Champa with an army of 260,000 men. One Cham king alone already had 10 invasions against us Vietnamese. If we didn't fight the Cham, we Vietnames would cease to exist already.

btw, I believe the Cham once conquered Khmer Krom for a while right?
Doan Du
[quote=malay_ako,Feb 26 2004, 11:35 PM] [QUOTE=Doan Du,Feb 26 2004, 11:15 PM] Yes, I am a Viet.


What malay was that who came to southern china from tibet? Are you refering to the Nagas of Nagaland?

i didnt know much about the relationship of the Vietnamese with the Malays. I guess you claim brotherhood with us malay if you wish. but there is more to being a Malay then having a few similiarities with our Native Austronesian culture. Besides Vietnamese have their own history that i think most viets rather claim then say they are distant descendants of Malay. but there is nothing wrong with showing relationship and how we influence each other in the past, because we will learn that we are friends and not enemies beerchug.gif

i will jsut tell you an intersting fact:


Some linguists believe the Tai languages probably deserve a place within an expanded version of [the Austronesian languge family], though others favor the Sino-Tibetan family to include them.

The languages of the Tai family are found in Southeast Asia. Britannica claims this language family was formerly considered to be part of the Sino-Tibetan languages, but that most of the similarities are incidental and that the relationship appears to be false. It also mentions suggestions that the Tai are closer to the Austronesian languages.


south-western group
Thai or Siamese (Thailand)
Lao or Laotian (Laos, Thailand)
Shan language (Burma)
Yuan language (Thailand)

central and northern groups (China)
Nung
Tho
Kam-Sui group
Kadai group (China, Yunnan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_languages [/quote]
Yes. I understand that there were many waves of migration, not just one.

I am not trying to claim anything. I was a bit skeptical until a conversation with my sister-in-law (who is Indonesian) about Malay language and culture. Unlike other Viets, I am not against the idea that modern Vietnamese are distant descendants of Malays who once populated South of the Yang Tze river.

Interesting discovery about the Tai language.
tqt
Doan Du,

Could you talk a little bit about some of the "characteristics" that the Vietnamese share with other non-Vietnamese? You seem to know about it.
Doan Du
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 27 2004, 12:38 AM)
Doan Du,

Could you talk a little bit about some of the "characteristics" that the Vietnamese share with other non-Vietnamese? You seem to know about it.

We use betel nuts in wedding ceremony. That's a Malay tradition. We chew betel nuts, that's a Malay culture.

Hon Vong Phu (a lady who turned to stone waiting for her husband) is a Malay tale. The hungry calf that pursued a bull trying to nurse (Trang Trinh) is a Malay tale.
angkorwat19
QUOTE
"There is a lot of problems with Funan. From a historical view there is as lot problems to prove that they were Khmer because the first inscription found in Khmer is dated to 611. Many historian view Funan as pre Khmer kingdom."

"Khmer fought many wars with Champa and our ancestor help the Viets destroy that country. Khmer attack one side and the Vietnamese from the other. So I guess it`s our Karma because if Champa was still here it will serve as a buffer state between Srok Khmer and Vietnam."

so dont be angry with me, it is not even origianlly my statement, it was the words of your own khmer brother who is not baised and think too good of himself to acknowledge his own people's wrongdoings, do you honestly beleive your khmer ethnicity is perfect and never made any atrocities?

i'm probably one of the few khmers who isn't certain that Funan is a khmer kingdom because malays did settle in SEAsia before the khmers and thats a fact. also, you shouldn't take one quote from a person and present it to other khmers who have different views on the issue. that's ridiculous to get one or a few quotes from other people and have that taken into consideration. i know for sure other khmers don't share the same views as him. he's not even a scholar or an expert in khmer history. who is he to say that khmers deserve karma? it's also irrevelant to bring kampuchea krom into this because that territory has never been fought over, it was illegally given to the vietnamese by the french. no blood was spilled for that piece of land.
angkorwat19
QUOTE
At this crucial moment, it was due to a stroke of luck that the Vietnamese discovered Che Bong Nga's warship among hundreds, concentrated cannon fire on it, killing him and stopping the victorious Cham march. The Chams weren't some
helpless victims that some Cambodians made them out to be just to denounce Vietnamese aggression.


not to stir up anymore hatred between khmers and vietnamese but if the vietnamese weren't the aggressors then why did the majority of the cham population migrated to cambodia throughout the 14th to 17th century? most chams rather live under khmer rule than vietnamese rule because they knew that vietnamese would force them to assimilate. khmer kings also allow several cham elites to hold powerful positions in the royal court. khmers also gave chams their own province call Kompong Cham and khmers never forced them to assimilate. they were free to practice their own religion and preserve their own culture.

i tell you this, after the fall of angkor, khmers tried to live in peace since they converted from hindus to theravada buddhists. they were no longer warriors and it was time for others to have the spotlight. that's when the thais, laos, and vietnamese people came in. khmers helped their neighbors and trusted their neighbors but what did we get in return? our land was stolen.. a khmer king gave a Lao warrior named Fa Ngum 5,000 army men to help him defeat the thais. khmer buddhists missionaries went to laos and preached to the lao people about buddha's philosophy and laos became another theravada buddhist country. Lao and Cham people have given us khmers respect in return.
malay_ako
QUOTE (angkorwat19 @ Feb 27 2004, 01:39 AM)
i'm probably one of the few khmers who isn't certain that Funan is a khmer kingdom because malays did settle in SEAsia before the khmers and thats a fact. also, you shouldn't take one quote from a person and present it to other khmers who have different views on the issue. that's ridiculous to get one or a few quotes from other people and have that taken into consideration. i know for sure other khmers don't share the same views as him. he's not even a scholar or an expert in khmer history. who is he to say that khmers deserve karma? it's also irrevelant to bring kampuchea krom into this because that territory has never been fought over, it was illegally given to the vietnamese by the french. no blood was spilled for that piece of land.

I ONLY POSTED WHAT KHEMRCASSANVOA SAID TO MAKE A POINT THAT SOME KHMERS ALSO BELIEVE THERE MAY BE A POSIBLITY THAT FUNAN WASNT A KHMER KINGDOM.

ITS NOT JUST ME MAKING THESE ACCUSATIONS.

I ONLY MENTIONED KHMER KROM TO SHOW THAT IF CHAMPA HAD NOT BEEN DESTORYED BY THE VIET & KHMER FORCES AND WAS STILL IN EXISTANCE IT WOULD BE A BUFFER STATE BEWEN VIETNAM AND CAMBODIA AND VIETS WOULD NOT HAVE NO HISTORY IN KHMER KROM AND SO FRENCH WOULD NEVER GIVEN IT TO VIETS WRONGFULLY, YES?
tqt
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 27 2004, 01:00 AM)
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 27 2004, 12:38 AM)
Doan Du,

Could you talk a little bit about some of the "characteristics" that the Vietnamese share with other non-Vietnamese?  You seem to know about it.

We use betel nuts in wedding ceremony. That's a Malay tradition. We chew betel nuts, that's a Malay culture.

Hon Vong Phu (a lady who turned to stone waiting for her husband) is a Malay tale. The hungry calf that pursued a bull trying to nurse (Trang Trinh) is a Malay tale.

I'm sorry to say that the things that you mentioned are native Vietnamse custom and tradition, not Malay. We do not borrow anything from them.
Kambolizhuz
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 27 2004, 12:02 AM)
QUOTE (Kambolizhuz @ Feb 26 2004, 11:27 PM)
I didn't mean Central Asia, I meant central Vietnam. You know north Vietnam used to belong to Champa? So that might explain why the Cham are in central Vietnam, probably the communist drove them down there.

No, Kambo.

This happens a long time ago. Champa ceased to exist in the 13th Century, a victim of Vietnamese King Le thanh Tong.

To be fair, Vietnam and Champa were locked in a deadly fight for survival with Vietnam losing badly. The powerful Cham warrior Che Bong Nga launched 10 invasions, sacked Hanoi 3 times and drove the Vietnamese Court into hiding. This was considered to be one of the major crises in the history of Dai Viet. As he fled, the Viet King Ho quy Ly wept and uttered these words "The enemy is stronger than we are, and resistance is impossible."

At this crucial moment, it was due to a stroke of luck that the Vietnamese discovered Che Bong Nga's warship among hundreds, concentrated cannon fire on it, killing him and stopping the victorious Cham march. The Chams weren't some
helpless victims that some Cambodians made them out to be just to denounce Vietnamese aggression.

1st of all, I said USED to belong to the Champa Kingdom
2ndly, I brought up the Cham group up because according to malay_ako
it part of the malay kingdom and you brought up the fact that Vietnam has similar
culture to the malay and the Cham might have influenced the Vietnamese since central and north WAS their kingdom.
*read carefully because you write no*
Doan Du
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 27 2004, 01:33 PM)
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 27 2004, 01:00 AM)
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 27 2004, 12:38 AM)
Doan Du,

Could you talk a little bit about some of the "characteristics" that the Vietnamese share with other non-Vietnamese?  You seem to know about it.

We use betel nuts in wedding ceremony. That's a Malay tradition. We chew betel nuts, that's a Malay culture.

Hon Vong Phu (a lady who turned to stone waiting for her husband) is a Malay tale. The hungry calf that pursued a bull trying to nurse (Trang Trinh) is a Malay tale.

I'm sorry to say that the things that you mentioned are native Vietnamse custom and tradition, not Malay. We do not borrow anything from them.

Well...Since you are such an expert on Vietnamese culture, perhaps you can explain why that's a native Vietnamese-and not a borrowed-culture.
Doan Du
QUOTE (Kambolizhuz @ Feb 27 2004, 06:15 PM)
1st of all, I said USED to belong to the Champa Kingdom
2ndly, I brought up the Cham group up because according to malay_ako
it part of the malay kingdom and you brought up the fact that Vietnam has similar
culture to the malay and the Cham might have influenced the Vietnamese since central and north WAS their kingdom.
*read carefully because you write no*

Ok, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I actually don't think that the Chams influenced the Vietnamese that much. In my opinion, the Viet were already Malay to begin with. That's just two Malays fighting each other. One was influenced by China and the other by India.

The Cham diaspora (one group fled to Khmer land and the other to Aceh, Sumatra) was caused by the fact that Le Thanh Tong was a very ethnocentric king who promoted law and order. He devised the Hong Duc Codes so Dai Viet would no longer rely on Chinese administrative laws. A gifted poet, he was the first to encourage the use of Vietnamese Nom-a new writing system in the 1400's. The Chams probably found his rule too intolerant and oppressive after their defeat.
tqt
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 27 2004, 09:43 PM)
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 27 2004, 01:33 PM)
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 27 2004, 01:00 AM)
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 27 2004, 12:38 AM)
Doan Du,

Could you talk a little bit about some of the "characteristics" that the Vietnamese share with other non-Vietnamese?  You seem to know about it.

We use betel nuts in wedding ceremony. That's a Malay tradition. We chew betel nuts, that's a Malay culture.

Hon Vong Phu (a lady who turned to stone waiting for her husband) is a Malay tale. The hungry calf that pursued a bull trying to nurse (Trang Trinh) is a Malay tale.

I'm sorry to say that the things that you mentioned are native Vietnamse custom and tradition, not Malay. We do not borrow anything from them.

Well...Since you are such an expert on Vietnamese culture, perhaps you can explain why that's a native Vietnamese-and not a borrowed-culture.

You seem to be an expert of Vietnamese culture more than me, perhaps you should explain why those native Vietnamese customs were borrowed from the Malaysian instead.
Doan Du
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 27 2004, 11:46 PM)
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 27 2004, 09:43 PM)
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 27 2004, 01:33 PM)
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 27 2004, 01:00 AM)
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 27 2004, 12:38 AM)
Doan Du,

Could you talk a little bit about some of the "characteristics" that the Vietnamese share with other non-Vietnamese?  You seem to know about it.

We use betel nuts in wedding ceremony. That's a Malay tradition. We chew betel nuts, that's a Malay culture.

Hon Vong Phu (a lady who turned to stone waiting for her husband) is a Malay tale. The hungry calf that pursued a bull trying to nurse (Trang Trinh) is a Malay tale.

I'm sorry to say that the things that you mentioned are native Vietnamse custom and tradition, not Malay. We do not borrow anything from them.

Well...Since you are such an expert on Vietnamese culture, perhaps you can explain why that's a native Vietnamese-and not a borrowed-culture.

You seem to be an expert of Vietnamese culture more than me, perhaps you should explain why those native Vietnamese customs were borrowed from the Malaysian instead.

Sorry, I have never made such a claim. It was you who said Vietnam didn't borrow those customs from Malays. Prove it.
tqt
QUOTE
Sorry, I have never made such a claim. It was you who said Vietnam didn't borrow those customs from Malays. Prove it.


Sorry, those are Vietnamese customs since the who-knows-what day. If you want to claim that those are not Vietnamese customs, you need to prove it.
Doan Du
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 28 2004, 12:01 AM)
QUOTE
Sorry, I have never made such a claim. It was you who said Vietnam didn't borrow those customs from Malays. Prove it.


Sorry, those are Vietnamese customs since the who-knows-what day. If you want to claim that those are not Vietnamese customs, you need to prove it.

But you are the one who said that you KNOW DEFINITELY that those customs weren't Malay but Viet.

I merely pointed out the resemblance of Viet customs to that of Malays.

You made the statement, you prove it.
tqt
QUOTE
I merely pointed out the resemblance of Viet customs to that of Malays


No, you were the one who claimed that those native Vietnamese customs were borrowed from the Malay. You need to prove it, not me.
Doan Du
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 28 2004, 12:09 AM)
QUOTE
I merely pointed out the resemblance of Viet customs to that of Malays


No, you were the one who claimed that those native Vietnamese customs were borrowed from the Malay. You need to prove it, not me.

Hahaha...Your insight on Vietnamese culture is so profound. I might not be able to understand your explanation.
tqt
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 28 2004, 12:13 AM)
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 28 2004, 12:09 AM)
QUOTE
I merely pointed out the resemblance of Viet customs to that of Malays


No, you were the one who claimed that those native Vietnamese customs were borrowed from the Malay. You need to prove it, not me.

Hahaha...Your insight on Vietnamese culture is so profound. I might not be able to understand your explanation.

You are avoiding my question. I've no problem if you say that Vietnamese customs resemble the Malay but if you claim that those Vietnamese customs were borrowed from the Malay then you need to prove it.
Doan Du
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 28 2004, 12:15 AM)
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 28 2004, 12:13 AM)
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 28 2004, 12:09 AM)
QUOTE
I merely pointed out the resemblance of Viet customs to that of Malays


No, you were the one who claimed that those native Vietnamese customs were borrowed from the Malay. You need to prove it, not me.

Hahaha...Your insight on Vietnamese culture is so profound. I might not be able to understand your explanation.

You are avoiding my question. I've no problem if you say that Vietnamese customs resemble the Malay but if you claim that those Vietnamese customs were borrowed from the Malay then you need to prove it.

Go back and reread the post. Are you trying to be intentionally stupid?

You asked me to show the few similarities between Malay and Viet cultures and I did so. Then you said that the Viet didn't borrow them from the Malays.

I have never said anything about borrowing. You did.
tqt
QUOTE
We use betel nuts in wedding ceremony. That's a Malay tradition. We chew betel nuts, that's a Malay culture.

Hon Vong Phu (a lady who turned to stone waiting for her husband) is a Malay tale. The hungry calf that pursued a bull trying to nurse (Trang Trinh) is a Malay tale.


How should i interpret this quote, you stupid. Everything is a "Malay culture or Malay tale"
Doan Du
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 28 2004, 12:25 AM)
QUOTE
We use betel nuts in wedding ceremony. That's a Malay tradition. We chew betel nuts, that's a Malay culture.

Hon Vong Phu (a lady who turned to stone waiting for her husband) is a Malay tale. The hungry calf that pursued a bull trying to nurse (Trang Trinh) is a Malay tale.


How should i interpret this quote, you stupid. Everything is a "Malay culture or Malay tale"

Interpret it any moronic way you want. Prove your ignorance would be my suggestion.
malay_ako
hey, let's not fight now. i dont think the issue is wheter the vietnamese ethnicty and malay ethincity influence each other culturally, i think the issue is nationalisim. Doan Du is presenting information that suggests various vietnamese customs are due to the Malay Ethnicty. Let me stop right here and remind you that when we say "Malay" we are not refering to Malaysia or any specific country. Malay is an Ethnic term for inhabitants of almost all the islands in the indian and pacific ocean because the Malay's ancestors sailed to these islands.

Malaysia is just a country name created by a white man in the 1900s who combined the name of the inhabitants of the region to be the country: "malays" and "sia" taken from the word "A-SIA" and he put it together and it became "Malaysia" Malaysia chould have been called plutoland and we would still be saying "Malay Ethnicty"

I don't think tgt appreicates having his Vietnamese customs given credit to the Malay Ethnicty because he doesnt recognize a relationship between the 2. In fact i cant say that i see a realtionship between the two right now because honestly, this is new info to me, but i wont deny that there could be one. I would be proud to find cultural influence between the Vietnamese and the Malay Ethnicty.

But i think Doan Du is trying to argue that Vietnamese are part of the Malay Ethnicty. As of my studies i have not really come across any literature proposing this. but who knows i ha'vent read all the books on the Malay Ethnicty and our native AUstroneain culture.
Doan Du
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 28 2004, 07:06 AM)
Let me stop right here and remind you that when we say "Malay" we are not refering to Malaysia or any specific country. Malay is an Ethnic term for inhabitants of almost all the islands in the indian and pacific ocean because the Malay's ancestors sailed to these islands.

I don't think tgt appreicates having his Vietnamese customs given credit to the Malay Ethnicty because he doesnt recognize a relationship between the 2.

Isn't the topic of this discussion shown clearly in the first post of this thread? How more obvious must one make it?
----------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways, Malay_ako, do you come across the story of Puteri Naga (Dragon Princess) and her husband in your studies?

The two are on their way south when the Dragon Princess realizes that she has left her wedding veil behind. The husband asks her to wait while he goes north to fetch it. Alas, days, months, years and centuries pass, and he still does not return -but the Dragon Princess still waited patiently, never losing hope. And she waited for so long that she is transformed into what is now Pulau Tioman-an island in the Malaysian Archipelago.

In Vietnam we have a similar story to that except that the lady is waiting with her child. Both tales are behind navigational landmarks that sailors recognize from afar. We call our landmark Hon Vong Phu. (Hon = island, islet or Pulau, Vong Phu = Longing for husband's return).

And how about the story about the clever advisor Cati Bilang Pandai and the buffalo calf?

When Majapahit threatened to invade the area, the grand old advisor to the various clans living there, Cati Bilang Pandai, met with the king of Majapahit and suggested a bufallo fight to settle matters, rather than sacrificing good men in war (an eminently sensible proposition, in my humble opinion, and something we should probably emulate in this modern day and age!). The day of the fight arrives, and the King of Majaphit released a huge buffalo into the arena, and was shocked to see Cati Bilang Pandai release only a buffalo calf. The calf apparently was not given any food for a week before and had a 'taji' (metal spur for c@ck
fighting, shaped like a horn) attached to its head. When the competition started, the calf charged headlong to the big buffalo - thinking it was its mother! The Javanese buffalo was, of course, badly hurt and ran from the ring, and the people who watched screamed victoriously "MANANGKABAU" ('The buffalo's won!'), which eventually became Minangkabau.

Well, in our version, the bad guy was not the king of Majapahit but the Chinese Ambassador seeking to humiliate the Emperor of Annam. Our "Cati Bilang Pandai" was a bright and clever advisor to the Vietnamese Emperor by the name of Trang Trinh (Trang was the title of first doctorate because his academic achievement in both China and Vietnam).

Vocabulary wise, there are many words that Malay and Viet share. Kuala = cu*a? (door), bayan = bay (to fly), cun = cua? (of), nung = nui' (mountain), bonga = bo^ng (flower), songa = so^ng (river), tanga = thang (stairs, ladder) are a few examples.
tqt
malay ako,

I have no problem if the Vietnamese and Malay are relatives of each other. In fact, i believe that the Malaysian are relative of the Vietnamese. If my memory serves me right, a linguist once pointed out that the Vietnamese, Cham, and Malaysian share about 150 basic vocabularies. I only have a problem with those who tried to imply that our native customs were BORROWED from the Malay.
malay_ako
QUOTE
Anyways, Malay_ako, do you come across the story of Puteri Naga (Dragon Princess) and her husband in your studies?

The two are on their way south when the Dragon Princess realizes that she has left her wedding veil behind. The husband asks her to wait while he goes north to fetch it. Alas, days, months, years and centuries pass, and he still does not return -but the Dragon Princess still waited patiently, never losing hope. And she waited for so long that she is transformed into what is now Pulau Tioman-an island in the Malaysian Archipelago.

In Vietnam we have a similar story to that except that the lady is waiting with her child.  Both tales are behind navigational landmarks that sailors recognize from afar.  We call our landmark Hon Vong Phu.  (Hon = island, islet or Pulau, Vong Phu = Longing for husband's return).

And how about the story about the clever advisor Cati Bilang Pandai and the buffalo calf?

When Majapahit threatened to invade the area, the grand old advisor to the various clans living there, Cati Bilang Pandai, met with the king of Majapahit and suggested a bufallo fight to settle matters, rather than sacrificing good men in war (an eminently sensible proposition, in my humble opinion, and something we should probably emulate in this modern day and age!). The day of the fight arrives, and the King of Majaphit released a huge buffalo into the arena, and was shocked to see Cati Bilang Pandai release only a buffalo calf. The calf apparently was not given any food for a week before and had a 'taji' (metal spur for c@ck
fighting, shaped like a horn) attached to its head. When the competition started, the calf charged headlong to the big buffalo - thinking it was its mother! The Javanese buffalo was, of course, badly hurt and ran from the ring, and the people who watched screamed victoriously "MANANGKABAU" ('The buffalo's won!'), which eventually became Minangkabau.

Well, in our version, the bad guy was not the king of Majapahit but the Chinese Ambassador seeking to humiliate the Emperor of Annam.  Our "Cati Bilang Pandai" was a bright and clever advisor to the Vietnamese Emperor by the name of Trang Trinh (Trang was the title of first doctorate because his academic achievement in both China and Vietnam).

Vocabulary wise, there are many words that Malay and Viet share.  Kuala = cu*a? (door), bayan = bay (to fly), cun = cua? (of), nung = nui' (mountain), bonga = bo^ng (flower), songa = so^ng (river), tanga = thang (stairs, ladder) are a few examples.



wow, while i am familari with the Austronesian Minangkabau tribe and that legend, i was not aware of the vietnamese legend. it is very cool. i think its great that you teach me your viet leends because i dont know them, and i probably would never know that they are similar if you had not told me because i would never studied. i wonder how many other ppl have stories that are so remeincent of each other but i just dont know bceause i never heard their legends. i think this is great thing about being friendly because u learn how ppl can be so similar but you would never learn this if we just kill and hate each other all the time. i would never suspect viet have these thing in cmomon with the malay people.
malay_ako
QUOTE (tqt @ Feb 28 2004, 07:19 PM)
malay ako,

I have no problem if the Vietnamese and Malay are relatives of each other. In fact, i believe that the Malaysian are relative of the Vietnamese. If my memory serves me right, a linguist once pointed out that the Vietnamese, Cham, and Malaysian share about 150 basic vocabularies. I only have a problem with those who tried to imply that our native customs were BORROWED from the Malay.

do you know that when the cham migrated to hainan island in mass refuge, i think when viet began pushing them southward, the Austronesian language they spoke became very mixed in hainan since they ahd contact with chinese minroties?

is that maybe how cham and viet have lingustic relation through contact? or is the realtionship go farther in time with more realtion then just contact?

"ChicoTsat, an Austronesian language of Hainan, is one of the clearest examples in the literature of a language restructuring under intense contact. Some two thousand years ago, traders speaking a Malayo-Chamic language set up trading posts on the coast of modern day Vietnam. Interaction and intermarriage with speakers of Bahnar [Mon-Khmer] led to the total restructuring of the language; under intense contact with Bahnar, it became Chamic, a language that differed strikingly from its Malayo-Chamic ancestor in phonology, morphology, lexicon, and syntax (constructions). For roughly a thousand years, this newly restructured Chamic language—the language of the Champa Federation—existed as an only moderately differentiated dialect continuum along the coastline of southern Vietnam, with a small trading post on Hainan Island. The next major restructuring occurred after the northern capital fell to the Vietnamese in 982. This event led the Northern Cham to split into two groups: the bulk of the merchant class (including many Muslims—Huihui, in Chinese) fled to Hainan becoming the Utsat (etymologically, u `people classifier` + Tsat, *cam ‘Cham’; note that, a thousand years ago, all Chamic speakers were more than likely called Chams),while the bulk of the non-merchant class fled to south and, in many cases, inland, becoming the Northern Roglai (etymologically, ra `people`+ glai `forest`). It is worth noting that the Northern Roglai are the Chamic group reputed to have the royal treasures from the northern capital. The arrival of the Northern Cham traders on Hainan—an event noted in the Chinese Dynastic records—led to another complete restructuring of the language, this time under the influence of the monosyllabic and tonal Hlai languages (Tai-Kadai), the monosyllabic and tonal Min dialects of Chinese, and, more recently, under the quite intense influence of Mandarin. [The final restructuring of Tsat phonology takes place after their arrival on Hainan and had come into more intense contact both with Hlai speakers and with Min speakers, that is, sometime after 982.]"

"The Restructuring of Tsat under Intense Contact” Graham Thurgood and Fengxiang "Frank" LiCalifornia State University."

PDF of Austronesian derived Hainan Linguistics
Doan Du
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 28 2004, 09:25 PM)
 

do you know that when the cham migrated to hainan island in mass refuge, i think when viet began pushing them southward, the Austronesian language they spoke became very mixed in hainan since they ahd contact with chinese minroties?

is that maybe how cham and viet have lingustic relation through contact? or is the realtionship go farther in time with more realtion then just contact?

"ChicoTsat, an Austronesian language of Hainan, is one of the clearest examples in the literature of a language restructuring under intense contact. Some two thousand years ago, traders speaking a Malayo-Chamic language set up trading posts on the coast of modern day Vietnam. Interaction and intermarriage with speakers of Bahnar [Mon-Khmer] led to the total restructuring of the language; under intense contact with Bahnar, it became Chamic, a language that differed strikingly from its Malayo-Chamic ancestor in phonology, morphology, lexicon, and syntax (constructions). For roughly a thousand years, this newly restructured Chamic language—the language of the Champa Federation—existed as an only moderately differentiated dialect continuum along the coastline of southern Vietnam, with a small trading post on Hainan Island. The next major restructuring occurred after the northern capital fell to the Vietnamese in 982. This event led the Northern Cham to split into two groups: the bulk of the merchant class (including many Muslims—Huihui, in Chinese) fled to Hainan becoming the Utsat (etymologically, u `people classifier` + Tsat, *cam ‘Cham’; note that, a thousand years ago, all Chamic speakers were more than likely called Chams),while the bulk of the non-merchant class fled to south and, in many cases, inland, becoming the Northern Roglai (etymologically, ra `people`+ glai `forest`). It is worth noting that the Northern Roglai are the Chamic group reputed to have the royal treasures from the northern capital. The arrival of the Northern Cham traders on Hainan—an event noted in the Chinese Dynastic records—led to another complete restructuring of the language, this time under the influence of the monosyllabic and tonal Hlai languages (Tai-Kadai), the monosyllabic and tonal Min dialects of Chinese, and, more recently, under the quite intense influence of Mandarin. [The final restructuring of Tsat phonology takes place after their arrival on Hainan and had come into more intense contact both with Hlai speakers and with Min speakers, that is, sometime after 982.]"

"The Restructuring of Tsat under Intense Contact” Graham Thurgood and Fengxiang "Frank" LiCalifornia State University."

PDF of Austronesian derived Hainan Linguistics


It's a long shot that Cham & Viet languages got their similarities through Cham integration into Chinese Hainan.

The Cham-Viet relationship dated back to even pre-Qin China. Champa was called Yue Chang (Việt Thường, ironic, isn't it?) during Zhou period and Lin-Y (Lâm Ấp) during the Qin Dynasty.

Vietnamese rebel Mai thúc Loan rose up against the Chinese with the help of the Chams in the 8th Century. In 979 Champa king Paramesvaravarman helped Vietnamese rebel Lę Hoŕn seize the Vietnamese throne. Khmer king Suryavarman II attacked and made Champa a vassal state when the Cham king would not support his invasion of Annam.

Later, despite the two states regularly engaging in military hostilities, mutual needs helped maintain the relations. Sometimes they were the best of allies, exemplified by the period during and right after the Mongol invasion. The Viets' refusal to let Kublai Khan's army marching through their territory to get to Champa was the reason for the Khan's second invasion of Annam. The Cham navy in return helped the Viets in sealing the fate of Mongol Admiral Sogetu (Toa Đô) at the battle of Hŕm Tử Quan. Vietnamese Princess Huyền Trân married Cham ruler Indravarman (Chế Mân) right after the war.

Such long exchanges require intricate knowledge of each other's language, culture and character. Vietnamese adopt many Cham words such as Ơi (acknowledgment of someone's calling you), cheo leo (propitious condition), phŕn nŕn (complaint). Vietnamese music is also full of Cham's notes and chords.

By the way, the seafaring Chams already had established themselves on Hainan prior to the island's sinization. Their move to the island en masse after Vijaya was sacked in 1471 by Le thanh Tong was more likely based on clan connection and family ties than just simply finding new refuge.
malay_ako
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 29 2004, 11:44 AM)
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 28 2004, 09:25 PM)
 

do you know that when the cham migrated to hainan island in mass refuge, i think when viet began pushing them southward, the Austronesian language they spoke became very mixed in hainan since they ahd contact with chinese minroties?

is that maybe how cham and viet have lingustic relation through contact? or is the realtionship go farther in time with more realtion then just contact?

"ChicoTsat, an Austronesian language of Hainan, is one of the clearest examples in the literature of a language restructuring under intense contact. Some two thousand years ago, traders speaking a Malayo-Chamic language set up trading posts on the coast of modern day Vietnam. Interaction and intermarriage with speakers of Bahnar [Mon-Khmer] led to the total restructuring of the language; under intense contact with Bahnar, it became Chamic, a language that differed strikingly from its Malayo-Chamic ancestor in phonology, morphology, lexicon, and syntax (constructions). For roughly a thousand years, this newly restructured Chamic language—the language of the Champa Federation—existed as an only moderately differentiated dialect continuum along the coastline of southern Vietnam, with a small trading post on Hainan Island. The next major restructuring occurred after the northern capital fell to the Vietnamese in 982. This event led the Northern Cham to split into two groups: the bulk of the merchant class (including many Muslims—Huihui, in Chinese) fled to Hainan becoming the Utsat (etymologically, u `people classifier` + Tsat, *cam ‘Cham’; note that, a thousand years ago, all Chamic speakers were more than likely called Chams),while the bulk of the non-merchant class fled to south and, in many cases, inland, becoming the Northern Roglai (etymologically, ra `people`+ glai `forest`). It is worth noting that the Northern Roglai are the Chamic group reputed to have the royal treasures from the northern capital. The arrival of the Northern Cham traders on Hainan—an event noted in the Chinese Dynastic records—led to another complete restructuring of the language, this time under the influence of the monosyllabic and tonal Hlai languages (Tai-Kadai), the monosyllabic and tonal Min dialects of Chinese, and, more recently, under the quite intense influence of Mandarin. [The final restructuring of Tsat phonology takes place after their arrival on Hainan and had come into more intense contact both with Hlai speakers and with Min speakers, that is, sometime after 982.]"

"The Restructuring of Tsat under Intense Contact” Graham Thurgood and Fengxiang "Frank" LiCalifornia State University."

PDF of Austronesian derived Hainan Linguistics


It's a long shot that Cham & Viet languages got their similarities through Cham integration into Chinese Hainan.

The Cham-Viet relationship dated back to even pre-Qin China. Champa was called Yue Chang (Việt Thường, ironic, isn't it?) during Zhou period and Lin-Y (Lâm Ấp) during the Qin Dynasty.

Vietnamese rebel Mai thúc Loan rose up against the Chinese with the help of the Chams in the 8th Century. In 979 Champa king Paramesvaravarman helped Vietnamese rebel Lę Hoŕn seize the Vietnamese throne. Khmer king Suryavarman II attacked and made Champa a vassal state when the Cham king would not support his invasion of Annam.

Later, despite the two states regularly engaging in military hostilities, mutual needs helped maintain the relations. Sometimes they were the best of allies, exemplified by the period right after the Mongol invasion. The Viets' refusal to let Kublai Khan's army marching through its territory to get to Champa was the reason for the Khan's second invasion of Annam. The Cham navy in return helped the Viets in sealing the fate of Mongol Admiral Sogetu (Toa Đô) at the battle of Hŕm Tử Quan. Vietnamese Princess Huyền Trân married Cham ruler Indravarman (Chế Mân) right after the war.

Such long exchanges require intricate knowledge of each other's language, culture and character. Vietnamese adopt many Cham words such as Ơi (acknowledgment of someone's calling you), cheo leo (propitious condition), phŕn nŕn (complaint). Vietnamese music is also full of Cham's notes and chords.

By the way, the seafaring Chams already had established themselves on Hainan prior to the island's sinization. Their move to the island en masse after Vijaya was sacked in 1471 by Le thanh Tong was more likely based on clan connection and family ties than just simply finding new refuge.

hey doan du, thats really intersting, but unfortunately im clueless beyond malay settlements and diaspora throughout the world. my study concentrate mainly on the native austronesian culture & civilization of the malay ethnicty and not so much on the foreign civilizations each malay established so im not very good conversation to you, but im glad to learn from you. btw do you know any other asian community that has cultural discussion like ours? i think im got bann very soon. its nice disscusions with you and others in the forums. palaam
Doan Du
QUOTE (malay_ako @ Feb 29 2004, 12:03 PM)
im glad to learn from you. btw do you know any other asian community that has cultural discussion like ours? i think im got bann very soon. its nice disscusions with you and others in the forums. palaam

No, unfortunately, this is the first Pan-Asian forum that I am wandering into. It's interesting to read other perspectives and to reconcile them with what one knows. I hope you won't get banned.

By the way, I am stuck with one more mystery from your discussion with the Cambodian folks. Aren't there any Malay references on Funan available? If not, why? We know that Malays used sanskrit on their scripts before 15th Century.

By the way, a Sanskrit inscription found near Jakarta Bay records that king Purnavarman of Tarumanagara (the Tarum river basin) diverted the river to improve drainage and make the port more accessible for trading vessels.

This shows that Malays knew how to use irrigation two full centuries before the techniques in hydraulic used by Khmers at Angkor.
Ek-ek
QUOTE (angkorwat19 @ Feb 27 2004, 08:57 AM)
I got a feeling this malay_ako guy really hates khmer people...
QUOTE
Vietnamese eventually conquered the Champa kingdom (Khmer attacks also helped destroy Champa, but they would pay for that in the end because the Vietnamese would eventually get possession of Khmer Krom without Champa as a buffer state between Vietnam and Cambodia to limit Vietnamese mass migration and displacement of the khmer in Khmer Krom, this is their “bad karma.”)

dude, listen to what you're saying... bad karma?, who gave asylum to the chams when vietnamese military were taking over? throughout the 14th to 17th century, the chams were given refuge by the khmer kings. now, the khmer and cham people live side by side peacefully, cambodians even gave chams their own province call Kompong Cham. rethink your statement and stop being so damn hypocritical... you idiot, "your people" filipino malays had nothing to do with the chams. during the time of war with vietnamese,khmers and chams, the filipinos were being assimilated into spanish culture so stop putting up non sense of how "your people" when "your people" had nothing to do with the chams in MAINLAND SEASIA. kampuchea krom was given to the vietnamese without a written consent, so in othe words they were given to them illegally. i'm pissed to hear you say about that karma thing when these khmers had nothing to do with the fall of CHAMPA. YOU NEED A REALITY CHECK!!

embarassedlaugh.gif well, Ever heared of sea voyages of the Champa and the Vietnamese people over distant countries like Indonesia ,Philippines and Malaysia?

Anthropological excavations in several sites in the Philippines showed vast numbers of Vietnamese potteries and vases.
BishoujoHunter
Viets Interbred W/ Austro-tai People, according to DNA studies

http://home.i1.net/~alchu/toivan/hist2.htm
read this
QUOTE
From:  Blood 94S:5b,1999 (suppl 1)
   The vast majority of known G6PD mutants are single missense nucleotide
mutations. The molecularly known mutants may allow more accurate study of
population movement. G6PD mutation information about Taiwan and surrounding
countries was collected from literature. The two most common mutants in the
Han population of Taiwan, 1376G->T and 1388G->A, or their biochemically equivalent
mutants are also commonly found in Southern China, and Thailand, Vietnam,
Singapore, Laos, Malaysia, and Indonesia. The third most common mutant in
Taiwan, 493A->G, has not been found in China but is common in the Philippines
and the most common one in the Siasiat aboriginal group of Taiwan. Two other
uncommon mutants in Taiwan, 1360C->T and 487G->A, have also not been found in
China. However, 1360C->T is the most common mutant in the Philippines and is
also found in the Vanuatu islands in Melanesia. The 487G->A mutant is common
in Southeast Asian countries. Another uncommon mutant, 592C->T in Han population
is the most common one in the Ami aboriginal group. Coagulation factor VIII
(F8C)/G6PD DNA polymorphism studies suggest that Han and aboriginal groups in
Taiwan have a similar pattern suggesting they might have the same ancestors.
The same F8C/G6PD haplotype was found in 1376G->T mutants in the Taiwanese and
the Li minority in Hainan, China.  G6PD deficiency is rare in Northern China
and the Northern G6PD mutants most likely originated from the South by comparing
the pattern of the haplotype of the affected patients between South and North.
The current Han populations in Taiwan and Southern China are unlikely the
descendants of Northern Chinese immigrants as family pedigree books claimed.
The current Han population in Taiwan is likely to have a partial but minor
component of ancestry from Austronesian groups. Some aboriginal groups of Taiwan
might have originally migrated from the Philippines or Taiwan is the ancestral
origin for Taiwanese aboriginal groups, Filipinos and other South Pacific Islanders
as recent studies suggest. Han in Taiwan and Southern China, minorities of
Southern China, Southeast Asians, and aboriginal groups in Taiwan probably
originate from the same ancestors, the different ones from Northern Chinese
Fil-Am
Indonesians, Malaysians and dalawapo are of Malay ethnicity.
khu91x
I haven't met a malay american before.
Fil-Am
QUOTE (khu91x @ Sep 8 2004, 10:48 PM)
I haven't met a malay american before.

Me neither, maybe because they don't exist. embarassedlaugh.gif
Iron Malayan
Indeed there aren't many Malay Americans. Most Malays don't find it necessary to emigrate.
Fil-Am
QUOTE (Iron Malayan @ Sep 9 2004, 02:35 PM)
Indeed there aren't many Malay Americans. Most Malays don't find it necessary to emigrate.

Don't Malays emigrate to England though. Since Malays have some kind of connection with them.

Hey khu91x by Malay you meant Malaysians right. confused.gif
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