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alphaz
just an irrelevant comment:

I dont know that Wulandari is a grandma. Btw she talks in a "preaching" manner. Is she a missionary? (I just assume Wulandari is a "she" because it seems everybody here is calling wulandari "grandma").

The short Comparative Religion course I had 3 years ago was very good. It was conducted by converts/reverts (i.e. converts to Islam). One was a Hindu, one was a roman catholic, and one was a catholic priest (he said when he was a priest people used to come to him to ask for their sin to be forgiven). The course gave good insight.
Sodrohu
QUOTE(brucewayne @ Oct 24 2005, 12:55 PM) [snapback]1165424[/snapback]

Just read a news today from Berita harian...

Tentera AS cuci kasut guna al-Quran

TELUK GUANTANAMO: Tentera Amerika Syarikat di Afghanistan menggunakan halaman yang dikoyakkan dari naskhah al-Quran untuk mengesat dan menyuci kasut mereka yang kotor, kata seorang tahanan Islam di penjara Amerika di Cuba itu.
Jumah Al-Dossary, 30, salah seorang daripada enam warga Bahrain yang ditahan di penjara Guantanamo mengesahkan bahawa al-Quran dihina di kem itu manakala tahanan Islam turut menjadi mangsa penderaan seksual, lapor The Associated Press.

Al-Dossary berkata, beliau melihat dengan mata kepalanya sendiri tentera Amerika di Pangkalan Udara Tentera Amerika di Kandahar, Afghanistan membersihkan kasut mereka menggunakan kertas yang dikoyak dari naskhah al-Quran.

Menurut dokumen sulit yang baru didedahkan oleh peguamnya, Joshua Colangelo-Bryan, Al-Dossary dibelasah dan dipijak oleh lapan tentera Amerika sejurus selepas tahanan Islam itu baru menjalani pembedahan perut.

Menurut dokumen itu, pada September 2002, al-Dossary dibawa ke bilik soal siasat dan berdepan dengan empat polis tentera dengan salah seorang daripadanya membawa kamera video.

Katanya, beliau dirantai di atas lantai sebelum dilucutkan pakaian sehingga bogel atas arahan seorang penyoal siasat wanita.

“Wanita itu kemudiannya berbogel, bertinggung di atas kemaluan, dada dan muka saya sebelum dia mengesat darah haidnya ke atas badan saya bagi memaksa saya membuat pengakuan mempunyai hubungan dengan rangkaian al-Qaeda,” kata al-Dossary yang dicatatkan dalam dokumen itu.

Selepas bertemu dengan enam tahanan Bahrain di penjara Guantanamo, Colangelo-Bryan, yang baru tiba di Amerika berkata, enam lelaki itu kini bimbang mereka terpaksa merengkuk di dalam penjara itu seumur hidup.

Sementara itu, laporan terbaru menyatakan, tentera Amerika berulang kali memasukkan tiub makanan kotor ke hidung banduan yang melancarkan mogok lapar sehingga banduan itu muntah darah. – Agensi

“Mereka menjolok salur itu menerusi hidung banduan sehingga salur itu tiba ke perut berulang kali,” kata peguam yang melaporkan kejadian itu kepada hakim persekutuan Amerika pada Ogos lalu.

“Keadaan itu mengakibatkan banduan terbabit muntah darah. Apabila muntah, tentera menghina banduan dengan menyatakan, lihatlah apa yang agama kamu lakukan ke atas diri kamu,” menurut dokumen itu yang baru didedahkan, lapor Associated Press.

Warga Arab Saudi, Yousef al Shehri, 21, yang ditahan di Guantanamo, berkata pegawai memindahkan tiub itu dari seorang banduan kepada banduan lain tanpa mencucinya terlebih dulu.

Seorang lagi banduan berkata, doktor tentera menjolok tiub itu menerusi hidungnya ke perut sehingga menyebabkannya muntah darah. – Agensi
`Nauzubillah....`
Semoga Allah memberi kekuatan kpd mangsa2 penderaan.
Hanya utk menyampaikan kekejaman yg dilakukan oleh tentera Amerika ke atas saudara2 kita. icon_sad.gif


Da*n.

I'd rather not believe such stories even if it is the truth. All these desecration of the Al-Quran and the negative views of the majority of the world's population towands Muslims and Islam are way too much. I've already seen deaths all the time; this news definitely is as unwelcome as hell.

Tsk. Be strong.
alphaz
Yup, be stronger.

I recently watched "The Road to Guantanamo", downloaded from www.islamictorrents.net. A first-person documentary/story of 3 British Muslims who were once Guantanamo prisoners. There were 4 of them, one of them was about to get married in Pakistan, so they met there. These 4 friends however decided to go to Afghanistan for some adventure, but later trapped in a fight between taliban and US forces. One of them was lost and never found, the other three were captured by US forces when the Talibans were defeated. Since they can speak English and can be a source of information, they were transported to Guantanamo as Talibans and were held for 2 years, humiliated, insulted, and false-accused, separated from their families. They witnessed US soldiers desecrating Al-Quran. In the end, due to lack of proof (although US officers did some "dirty" tactics) they were released without charge. At the end of the documentary, they said the experience have made them better and stronger Muslims, Subhanallah. I recommend everyone to download this movie. It was aired in a UK TV channel.

info from IMDb http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468094/
alphaz

just to add to my previous post (post #51, Apr 25 2006, 10:45 AM):

The story of that priest who becomes Muslim appeared in Utusan.
http://www.utusan.com.my/utusan/archive.as...02.htm&arc=hive
BloodyDumbfuckm
i havent really read the posts in tis topic but hvg a brief tot abt it:

why do ppl always want to uphold the quran i know its a holy book, i didnt say u were wrong. does any1 know abt the marilyn manson poster he was kneeling nude, holding two hands over the bible to cover btw his two thighs. at least no one shot marilyn manson in the head.

im saying tht, no americans/christians individuality (exception on bush admins) wldnot spent their time fighting useless thg bcus MM abuse/disrespect the bible with his poster, they probly wld be busy constructing some empires in wallstreet or profiting from MSofts shares, whtever.

while some grps of ppl are very committed in whtever they do , yes thts nice, but the point is, is the thg tht they fully commit in is correct? like the completely committed al qaede. i think their cause is wrong. yeah u can argue whtever jihad is there but terrorist is wrong. period. they clda protest/ react in many other manners eg mahatma, education, get ur islam interpretation right, whole lot. but they'r too narrow to only thinking violence is the way to go but is not.

but surely ther r too many variables here to actually able to simplify it; incl govt, the state of country in middle east tht stimulate such extremists. one thg, just dont over-prioritize religion and by religion is all religion, and focus on how to add value to ur life is much better time spend then lashing out on ppl who u think insulted ur religion. religion, like love cannot feed u.

and even if someone actually insulted ur religion right on, uve conscience to react positively not tht i mean ignore it and no one will scold u bcus u didnt defended it. i don think ur god will scold u becus u didnt defended him. in primary school, if tht kid insulted my parents n i punched him. both is wrong, im never innocent too anyway becus i hit him. u clda react differently altho harboring tht anger, but put tht anger into positive output rather thru fist. if u feel ur pride is dented, then i guess probly the real reason ur all uptight is ur own self, ur pride or ego.

if u want to really uphold the religion, educate urself n spread the gospel or whtever in islam the appropraite way. no body curse the priest for coming over my hse estate to sing song on gospel except for some occasion noise. i wont kill him. but taking excuses on violence and other unproductive activities (like punching the other kid on wearing a shirt depicting pig and allah) is not really the correctway to defend ur religion but tarnish tht certain religion like how al qaede has done to tht certain religion. its like the whole world has want or not, associate alqaede to islam. its like revenge, revenge don stop things, but encourage more.

i hope i deliver my msg
alphaz
^ I really admire your common sense. Terrorism is obviously wrong. I disagree when you say "dont over-prioritize religion", because to a Muslim, Islam should be above everything else. This probably sounds cliche to some people that Islam is not just a religion, it's a way of life. Nevertheless, I agree with most of your points.

Just got back, I want to add some more, because after re-reading your post I should clarify some things:
Muslims uphold Quran in very high esteem, but Islam doesnt warrant killing people who desecrated them. Regarding Al-Qaeda (and any Muslim terrorist/criminals), their actions are contrary to Islamic teachings, even though they say they do it in the name of Islam, and like you said they actually tarnish the image of Islam.
samheisfl
The way Christian look at their Bible is different from the way Muslims look at their Al-Quran... You can't compare both of them...

You give example of Marilyn Manson.. Maybe no one will shoot him because of what he done with the bible.. but it will be a different story if he do it to Al-Quran that way.. I'm doubt somebody wouldn't hurt him..

It is not that Islam is violance.. but in the first place, why these people doesn't respect Al-Quran.. If they respect it, there would be no violance i'm sure.. you will be respected if you respect other people.. it as easy as that..
BloodyDumbfuckm
QUOTE(alphaz @ Jun 2 2006, 08:10 AM) [snapback]1909858[/snapback]

I disagree when you say "dont over-prioritize religion", because to a Muslim, Islam should be above everything else. This probably sounds cliche to some people that Islam is not just a religion, it's a way of life.

Muslims uphold Quran in very high esteem, but Islam doesnt warrant killing people who desecrated them. Regarding Al-Qaeda (and any Muslim terrorist/criminals), their actions are contrary to Islamic teachings, even though they say they do it in the name of Islam, and like you said they actually tarnish the image of Islam.


sry i confuse readers , by don-overprioritze, i meant not defend islam up to the extent of using force but other more educated ways. jus to defend ur religion, u can go without work, ignore ur childrens education, attending the extremist gathering, read jihad war books, and ignore everythg else tht is more reality? when u can jus get a job like a priest or sthg tht works 24hrs to spread ur seeds. even tht is better than blind ur own eyes of wht is more reality than defence. even ur god wants u to hv good life.

religion or way-of-life, in any way, i hate to say but theyr really all the same. religion is the way of life, while the way of life may not be religion. religion IS religion. ppl can argue/deny tht. imo, even christians don acknowledge their christians as religion, they call it a relationship wit god. buddhist is even not religion, it is a teaching becus they use guides to life. so, wht is religion then if no-one admit.

really don wan to discuss the deifnition of the word so heavily.

Alqaede r extremist so im not surprised if they wage war.

even in msia, ordinary students, i strongly believe theyll go violent if u insult them right-on. but they nvr protest peacefully. in christian, myb a priest wld come up to u n preach u or lecture u til u die from boredom for insulting god or jesus. or probly u get suddenly many friends bcus they want to save u n invite u to one of their sunday service or cellgroups. eventho i didnt like christians, i actually look up to christianity because the values in christianity r very highly positive. (altho christians hv extremist oso but thts totally a separate isue)

buddhists wld probly js ignore or talk some sense to u same thg, but i scare for my life if i insult moslem. very rarely will they hand u a book and help u interpret the alquran so u can be more human. u can see the saw mohd pic. tht stir the world. ok, it is an insult i agree. BUT WTFBBQ, ITS JS A BLOODY GODAMN IMAGE OK. get some sense. tht is over prioritized! and u wanna start burning some ambassador n damage the economy bc of tht?

so regardless wht u said "abt Muslims uphold Quran in very high esteem, but Islam doesnt warrant killing people who desecrated them" but their disciples or all r not doin wht is taught. far from it. so inevitably, lead world into believing synonymous with violence. we didnt brought tis upon ourselves but they made tht images for them. to chg tht image tooo start from them. not me either.


*flamesuit on*
BloodyDumbfuckm
QUOTE(samheisfl @ Jun 2 2006, 03:04 PM) [snapback]1910843[/snapback]


It is not that Islam is violance.. but in the first place, why these people doesn't respect Al-Quran.. If they respect it, there would be no violance i'm sure.. you will be respected if you respect other people.. it as easy as that..


its not the respect tht is an issue. but the reaction is more important. violence is their reaction.

ur life whtever u reap tht is positive is becus of ur reaction tht is positive. it is a natural law like gravity u cant deny it. reaction is a choice from within ourself. respect is from ourself n others. by others meaning u cant control n in tis world, u will nvr control whether others respect u (with the imperfection of the world;human feelings n incomplete information; u did sthg wrong based on u didnt know the truth. all tis can be utopian) or not but at least how u react,can be.

talking abt respect, there must be sthg tht u did in the first place tht i didnt respect u no? so if someone didnt respect them, probly they did sthg tht ppl insult them. so u cant always blame why ppl don respect u in the first place. ask ur self first.

mahatma gandhi is an eg to a good reaction. good reaction attract respect naturally. good reaction IS above all and can bring good living. so in the first place, why ru so uptight abt ppl respect u or not. did u do sthg tht deserve respect or u a prick or bcus uve already a badass image js like insulted pics of saw mohd tht was drawn saw mohd wearing a turban of a lit bombs and many other His satirical pics of war-related . cus the dmg by his disciples has already dmg islam images tht resulted such pics. and the artist wld probly know ppls tht of loved ones was sacrificed due to these matyrs of islam. now whos wright whos wrong. cmon ur sons killed my brother n now u want me to respect u?
samheisfl
QUOTE(BloodyDumbfu-km @ Jun 2 2006, 04:52 PM) [snapback]1910997[/snapback]


talking abt respect, there must be sthg tht u did in the first place tht i didnt respect u no? so if someone didnt respect them, probly they did sthg tht ppl insult them. so u cant always blame why ppl don respect u in the first place. ask ur self first.



I don't know about you.. but Islam teaches us to respect people.. I believe most of the Muslim do respect other people..

Example, why the danish newspaper published such cartoon? It seems that they a lack of respect.. If there isn't any cartoon that disrespect Muhamad Pbuh, there will be no any violance right? It is like they stirring the hornet nest.. why don't asked first.. it is because they think that they own the world maybe..

Do you have to do something to earn a respect? So it means that you don't deserve any respect from me or anybody in the world since you are nothing.. but i think it will be ok if i respect you if you respect me.. This is the root for all relationship.. the most basic in life.. any relationship will be good if everyone respect each other..

Since you brought up the Danish newpaper issue, maybe you oversee at what had happen to Palestine, Iraq or maybe Bosnia.. Why can't this people respect them as they are? Why people other than Muslim said they terrorist..? If there isn't any disrespect act from US and his ally, there wouldn't be any Palestine or Iraq issue..

Maybe my sons killed your brother and you don't have to respect me.. but have you ever think why my sons want to kill your brother.. it is because of disrespect.. i don't think that my sons will kill your brother if they respect each other.. If you respect me, i will respect you back.. and i respect you, can you please respect me back.. its easy.. Maybe you sholud learn how respect people first..

BloodyDumbfuckm
QUOTE(samheisfl @ Jun 2 2006, 06:42 PM) [snapback]1911101[/snapback]

I don't know about you.. but Islam teaches us to respect people.. I believe most of the Muslim do respect other people..

i didnt say it doesnt. but wht was done has made the dmg.

QUOTE(samheisfl @ Jun 2 2006, 06:42 PM) [snapback]1911101[/snapback]

Example, why the danish newspaper published such cartoon? It seems that they a lack of respect..

i didnt say they were right either. did u read my eq abt punchin the school boy who insulted my parents. scroll back up. it is true tht the danish papers are wrong. the pepertrators who caused troubles to ambassador n other colateral dmg around the world, they resort to violence . no reason can justify tis acts when u hv a choice of peaceful protest but why violent. but again n again there's ONLY one solutions tht come to mind of the pepertratorrs, LETS BURN, TORCH N SHW THESE BASTARDS SOME LESSON. emotions control them as im sure human without ctrl wld do. emotion. not tht i mean i m all holy and can ctrl my emotion too. dam i really hate allthis im writing

QUOTE(samheisfl @ Jun 2 2006, 06:42 PM) [snapback]1911101[/snapback]

If there isn't any cartoon that disrespect Muhamad Pbuh, there will be no any violance right? It is like they stirring the hornet nest..

hornet nest? islam is like a hornet nest? there u said it urself. violence. british didnt respect mahatma but mahatma didnt sting them. he was no hornet despite the disrespect he got. and again, its the reaction i mentioned. besides, we r human, not some hornet who react on a nature instinct. u can choose how u react don u

QUOTE(samheisfl @ Jun 2 2006, 06:42 PM) [snapback]1911101[/snapback]

but have you ever think why my sons want to kill your brother.. it is because of disrespect.. i don't think that my sons will kill your brother if they respect each other..

still, no wrong or disrespect any human can ever do to justify another human killing him, true not? when ur sons killed my brother. no matter wht my brother did, it cld n will nvr measure up to the cruelty of the act ur sons did, even in the eyes of all god. kill for self defence is a debatable thg so i rather not go there.

QUOTE(samheisfl @ Jun 2 2006, 06:42 PM) [snapback]1911101[/snapback]

Do you have to do something to earn a respect? So it means that you don't deserve any respect from me or anybody in the world since you are nothing.. but i think it will be ok if i respect you if you respect me.. This is the root for all relationship.. the most basic in life.. any relationship will be good if everyone respect each other..

Maybe my sons killed your brother and you don't have to respect me.. but have you ever think why my sons want to kill your brother.. it is because of disrespect.. i don't think that my sons will kill your brother if they respect each other.. If you respect me, i will respect you back.. and i respect you, can you please respect me back.. its easy.. Maybe you sholud learn how respect people first..

wht comes first, chicken or the egg? the answer to tht really don matter does it.
samheisfl
^ well, i don't want to argue to you anymore.. There no use to argue anything here..

This will be my last post to reply your post

You said the damage has been done.. well,yes the damage is done there.. but above all, what is the root of all cause? I see it this way, but you see it the other way.. well, its not going to get along well.. For me, every cause must have its reason.. prevent the reason and surely the damage wouldn't be there..

I believe thats also happen to other religion as well.. Christian - during the Crusaders Era, Hindu - until now, and maybe other religion as well. So, please don't manipulate words by saying that i said Islam is a Hornet nest..

You said about your school experience.. well, the other boy just mocking your mom.. but what if a stranger abduct your mom and rape her and slice her? Maybe you can say that you'll only punch him.. but i the real world, i think you gonna kill him.. It is not that you want to kill him, but because of he what had done, i think definately you gonna do it.. and, your are a hornet too if that happen..

I didn't say that all the violance and damage that were done is good or i support those violance.. seriously, i didn't support all of those act.. And seriously, thoseact really tarnished Islam image.. but it involves human, so those act also came from human factor.

Yes, there are no wrong or disrespect any human can ever do to justify another human killing. I totally agree with that.. But let say it trully happen, my son kill your brother, what is cause of it? why cant your brother prevent it before? I'm not saying my son act is OK.. in fact, for sure, i myself will hand him to police... but, in above all, why he kill your brother? If your brother doesn't act violently or disrespect people or provoked people, i don't think that my son will kill your brother.. that's somewhat is the human factor..

As the situation i gave above, about your mum being abducted, i'm sure that you gonna be really angry.. right? For Muslims, those who insult Muhamad PBUH is far more than that.. But still, i admit killing, violance, and all the damage that were that done are totally wrong.. still it involves human factor there.. And i still believe if there is respect, not much violance will be there..

And by the way, theres already a strong theory and maybe already proven that eggs come first. Proven by sienctists from UK.
BloodyDumbfuckm
^^V


alphaz
I think there's no need to argue actually. the bloodydumbfu-km guy (sorry that's your nickname, i'm not swearing at you) are saying that some Muslims act based solely on emotions. he doesnt believe islam promote terrorism or such.

I see your point when you say don't be over emotional. however I'm inclined to believe you see Muslims as more prone to terrorise than others. that's disturbing. obviously you only see the bad Muslims.

from the translation of the meaning of Quran

"...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people...(Noble Quran 5:32)"
alphaz
if you read the utusan article (it's in Bahasa), the ex-priest's search for Islam was triggered by his neighbours (Muslim Malays) kindness towards his family.
BloodyDumbfuckm
QUOTE(alphaz @ Jun 3 2006, 10:37 PM) [snapback]1914817[/snapback]

I see your point when you say don't be over emotional. however I'm inclined to believe you see Muslims as more prone to terrorise than others. that's disturbing. obviously you only see the bad Muslims.


yes i feel tht theyr more prone to violence than others although in no way, meaning to say islam is violence. my initial post i might hv written as such. pls forgive me

no. i do not think there are no good muslims. i like ur word prone, or rather the tendency 1.to commit or 2.extremism due to over-zealous toward religion

cus is the bad ones tht r really scary tht might raise serious issues at present . its tht few bad ones tht is enuf to scare ur life already isnt it. i js hope theres no bloodshed (or scuffle?) is committed js becus some religion is insulted (of cos other insulter party oso wrong). i js wan peace no fights amg races tht all . in my daily life i respect religions except occasion annoyances from some.

hv a good day
and85rew
is war the solution of everything?
feleaz
Whatever religion is associated, he should respect religions other than his own. Holy books, religious symbols and places of worship of various religions must be respected by everybody regardless of their religion. The army shouldn't have done that. How would they feel if the holy book concerns is not the Quran but the Bible.
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